Should India Speak Up for the European Romani?

Thanks for writing this, Vinod, it is also imperative you read this great article by our sage, Sridhar, on the Romani Holocaust

vinod:

nice post

would have been better had you hinted on the real or alleged perceptions of the romani's behaviour viz. respect or abuse of local laws

;)

a couple things;

1) Indians who admire Hitler should be ashamed, whether or not the Romani have SE Asian roots.

2) I agree with Temporal. You've started well but you've missed a huge piece of the puzzle. There is a chicken and egg problem in many places in europe wrt the Romani. As an Italian, I have been mugged many times by Romani while in Rome and Florence and my good friend had his passport and green card stolen by Romani children in Florence. If you have never been to Italy, you can see large groups of Romani picking on tourists and locals alike and stealing whatever they can lay hands on. It is a growing problem, one that only worsens as they are marginalized and terrorized by locals.

Another issue is that, in Italy at least, there is growing resentment and hostility toward foreigners. The mayor of Rome is an avowed bigot and is rabidly anti-immigration, and Romani camps are being torn down. More and more, Italians are blaming foreigners like the Romani (even if they speak Italian and are Italian citizens they are viewed as foreigners) for a recent spike in crime. Fueling the fire is that there are some Romani perpetrating crimes like child rape, and so there goes the vicious cycle. However, I will not defend the horrible racism that most italians hold toward the Romani. It does nothing to help the current situation. The Romani are given little state help in Italy, and they are left in deplorable conditions with no way to help themselves out. when they do find a way out, they are often not accepted into the mainstream and are still marginalized, despite having legitimate jobs and an education.

the romani are not indian citizens. they never were. when they migrated out of "india", india was not a modern nation-state with concepts of citizenship etc. as is the case now, although there was obviously a civilizational concept with very diffuse sense of "boundaries". perhaps one might even want to reflect on why exactly did the romani move out of "india"? some of them still exist in india and are subject to hostility. perhaps india should do something for the romani who are in india and are indian citizens because they never left?

i do remember reading about some romani institute that was set-up, perhaps in Chandigarh, to study the linguistic and cultural affinities of the European and Indian romani.

finally, a line from the romani, popular in north india:

"sub thaat padar rah jayey gaa
jub laad chaley ga banjaraa"

(perhaps temporal will be nice enough to translate this, but roughly: "everything as we know it, will come to nought, once the we pack up our camp and move on to the next location"...perhaps a reference to the fact that in the end, all of us die, and leave our earthly possession, greed, unsatiated desires behind...)

that was:

"sub laad pada (para) rah jayey gaa
jub laad chaley ga banjaraa"

(everything will come to nought once the caravan moves on)

Thank you for your comments.

Temporal, SS, you have made a very valid point. I ought to have said this as well:

“It must be said that the Romani do not show the slightest inclination to give up their nomadic way of living and adopt a mainstream lifestyle. Like any other community, the Romani have their share of pickpockets, thieves, murderers and other criminals. However, unlike other communities, since the Romani do not follow any fixed trade or profession, the entire community is easily stereotyped as a bunch of criminals. The Romani tend to be treated with suspicion by the police and other members of public. Harsh treatment and arbitrary arrests of the Romani tend to be higher than average. When all members of a community are considered to be criminals and nothing good is expected of them, the propensity to turn to crime increases. All of this raises a very interesting question. Unlike the aborigines of Australia or the Native Americans, the Romani are not natives of Europe. They are immigrants. Are they entitled to the same rights and protections which aborigines and Native Americans have been granted in recent times to carry on with their traditional lifestyles? In a generous and prosperous world where there is enough for everybody, the answer could be a Yes. After all, the Romani have been in Europe for many centuries now. However, in a recession hit world, the answer is most likely to be a sad shake of the head.�

Could one of the editors please insert the paragraph above into the article?:) May be you could split the current last para into two â€" the sentence that starts with “So far the Romani have not (to my knowledge)â€� could be the beginning of the new last para and the paragraph I have provided above could be the penultimate one?

Commonsense, you are right in saying that “the romani are not indian citizens. they never were. when they migrated out of "india", india was not a modern nation-state with concepts of citizenship etc. as is the case now, although there was obviously a civilizational concept with very diffuse sense of "boundaries".

India need not speak up for the Romani, but it can speak up for the Romani. Just as India spoke up and still does for say Sri Lankan Tamils who have lived in Northern and Eastern Sri Lanka for centuries. Just as India worries about ethnic Indian populations in Fiji and the West Indies and Mauritius.

“perhaps one might even want to reflect on why exactly did the romani move out of "india"? some of them still exist in india and are subject to hostility. perhaps india should do something for the romani who are in india and are indian citizens because they never left?�

I don’t agree that India hasn’t done anything for the Romani. Many Indian nomads are classified as Scheduled Tribes and benefit from affirmative action. The Indian subcontinent has never seen a pogrom against such nomadic tribes, on the lines of what Hitler did. The British did classify a few tribes as criminal tribes (an injustice which is sought to be undone now through affirmative action), but independent India declassified those tribes. In other words I don’t think the Romani’s Indian cousins are any worse off than other deprived sections of Indian society.

also I will add one thing. I think the Romani, for the most part, look more like eastern europeans. I do not think they look like southeast asians at all! seriously... many of them have green eyes. lighter skin and look like Romanians or Lithuanians, IMHO. But I would never ever mistake them for Indians. On second thought, maybe they resemble some tribal groups from North India, but that is not the general image one has of Indians on the whole.

vinod:

write to the editors offline

:)

Strictly speaking India has no business in interfering in European affairs.

However, since Europe is always pontificating to the rest of the world on human rights issues, we should get back at them using issues such as this.

Good article.
I agree with CS. India should express no more concern for the romani than they would for aboriginal people of Australia or indians of North American for humanitarian reaosons.

I just cannot understand why the romani cannot assimilate with the main stream. I can see the problems in Europe. But why they cannot do so even in India, their home to begin with. Are'nt we all romani?

Fascinating article! I had heard vaguely of the Romani, but only because a popular show I follow (that would be House M.D.) featured them as one of their 'patients-of-the-week', but used caucasian actors. From reading your article, it seems like the Romani are very similar to the Malaysian Tamils, who do not actively claim Indian ancestry or ask for assistance, and are more interested in fighting for their Malaysian rights.

It is good to know about the Romani, but unless the Romani ask for assistance, India cannot meddle in European affairs. This is of course assuming that the Romani, a wandering tribe, recognize an institution such as the Indian governemnt when they very obviously do not recognize European institutions as holding any sway over their ways.

Vinod,

I think you slightly misunderstood my intent. In India, as in Europe, the romani are are perceived to be beyond the pale, by fellow-Indians. I did not at all mean to say that the Romani were ever subjected to pogroms, official discrimination etc.

The Romani have had a nomadic way of life for generations, and I can't imagine they would see their movement to Europe as leaving a bounded entity called "India". A quite different approach to thinking of geographical territory, even though now they are formally citizens of Italy, Greece etc. But even then, attempts to "settle" them have usually failed much of the time. They still have their caravans, hi-tech though they are!

SS: yup most of them have intermarried and hence they don't look "Indian". But then again I did see quite a few who look "Indian". But then again (!!) Indians are so diverse phenotypically that it is hard to pin down a typical Indian look! We cover the whole spectrum when it comes to phenotypical features!

Morris,

The intent of Vinod is that perhaps the Indian govt. should express concern because the Romani originally came from "India", not due to human rights concerns which are universal, not particularistic...

No Asian government expresses concern for Native Indians in North America, just because they migrated from "Asia" about 30,000 years ago. Heck, even China looked the other way when Indonesians of Chinese descent (just three generations or so) were massacred in Indonesia. Nor did the Chinese protest when India put its Chinese descent population (all Indian citizens by the way!) in concentration camps for a while, after the 1965 war with China.

You are comparing apples with rasmalai my friend. Morris Nagar near Delhi U has many rasmalai shops.

Morris:

""Are'nt we all romani?""

You might be from Rome; I am from Morris Nagar.

CS
You missed my point. All I was trying to say is that if there is any humanitarian cause you may and indeed you should show concern otherwise they are all apples.

Most Romanis don't look like Indians at all.. I doubt they have maintained their original Indian genetic stock, given their nomadic and criminal lifestyle.

As such, it is wrong to call Romanis Indian 'diaspora', for I think they are more European now genetically than Indian.

And in any case, what do we Indians achieve by pledging allegiance to a group of people hated almost everywhere throughout Europe? I have met a couple of Czechs and they seemed to harbour a rather poor opinion of Romanis. In places like Paris and Milan, theft is very high thanks to these people.

"Like any other community, the Romani have their share of pickpockets, thieves, murderers and other criminals. However, unlike other communities, since the Romani do not follow any fixed trade or profession, the entire community is easily stereotyped as a bunch of criminals. The Romani tend to be treated with suspicion by the police and other members of public. Harsh treatment and arbitrary arrests of the Romani tend to be higher than average. When all members of a community are considered to be criminals and nothing good is expected of them, the propensity to turn to crime increases."

I see the same argument used to justify the backwardness of Indian muslims..

Sorry, this kind of logic is hollow.. this is not a valid excuse for not becoming part of the mainstream..

Indian Muslims look up to Mulayam who wants both English and computers banned, making sure they are as backward as ever.

Morris:

"CS
You missed my point."

story of my life. missed the bus too. but i get what you are saying...

ledzius,

paging for your "evil twin"

ledzius,

I just got word that dinesh dsouza has been contracted to civilize the romanis and the muslims too. he will instruct them and any other community that wishes, in English and computers. margaret thatcher will coach them in the finer points of an upper class british accent and you are hereby appointed to show them how to tie a tie or wear a tux.

(Edited) I have met Czechs and other Central and Eastern Europeans, especially girls(they are really hot over there), and I have never been accused of being a gypsy or romani.
Granted I am an Indian, but raised in America, but still India should NEVER speak for these peoples rights unless requested by them.
The only way India can do something is if any of the nations in Central or Eastern Europe forcibly move these people into India. It can never happen due to geographical issues.

...then if those nations do that, India can go to war and destory any Central or Eastern European nation and change the DNA like the mongols did.

If i am not mistaken, the 1st world Roma conference happened with the funding of Indian Government

Haven't heard from you in a while, looking forward to your insights, as always.

To see why Romanis are hated all over Europe, read this-
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2010/01/family_shut_out.php

Ledzius,

Squatting is an old problem in UK. Other do it as well.

That's not a reflection on the Roma people but on the UK, which has of late become a certified third world shithole. I wouldn't be surprised if BNP fares well the next election.

The family(home owners) should take their belongings and squat in Royal Albert hall.

If anyone admires Hitler, Indian or not he must be nuts. No person with sane mind could admire a senseless animal Hitler.