Jade Goody: The Winner Took it All

"Jade Goody had that perfectly romantic death that I have always fantasized for myself."

By this one line I can tell that you are not married and that you do not have kids. Sorry, but wow... perfectly romantic? she was in pain, drugged, probably scared out of her mind, knowing she would miss seeing her boys grow up, leaving her husband that she just married. I have no idea what is romantic about any of that. it's horrible!

also, I can tell you've not ever known anyone that has cancer. it's not always about "pain, loss and sympathy." it is often about education, strength and triumph.

I guess I know what you were getting at, but I was just shocked. As a mom, if I found out tomorrow that I had a rare cancer and was dying, there would be no romanticizing it. I would be utterly heartbroken. I would not care that all my friends had gathered round to see me off. Not that I do not love them. But once you have a child, it all changes. It's not about how much attention you can get. It's about how much love you have left to give.

A perfect tribute to Goody. The best I have read. And richly deserving one.

Goody left the stage of reality show as a loser, but she left the stage of real life as a winner. People die all the time. But she made hers so special, and so heart warming, and such a moving tribute to life and loved ones. It is easy to lose it all when death stares at the face. But she won us all, even some of her harshest critics. She has left us all richer. May she rest in peace.

"The Winner Took it All" - for God sake, dont be so silly. You obviously wanted to be a poet or something and became a journalist. The woman had everything to live for, was petrified, was in agony and did NOT want to die. Her family is devastated.
"left the stage of real life as a winner" - you should all go back to drama college.
"She has left us all richer" - well she was very savvy and married ber boyfriend hastily to save one million in tax for her kids. Hmmm.. call me cynical, but I hear her new husband (although she has not even been buried yet, has just signed with a publishers to write a book about his last month with our heroine.
------ sorry but it all reeks of bad taste and opportunism. However, the tragedy is that a young woman has lost her life and left 2 children. And some women are checking themselves with smear tests now. Whether that lasts is another matter.

S. Basu,
say what?!! i guess there's a reason why your blog is called "this is my truth".

"The children would have grown out of a broken marriage and taken to drugs. "

ummm...do you know that for sure? I don't know. this article is disturbing on many levels and instead of taking up more space here, I just want to second what SS and CS have said.

Its easy for those who have never suffered from hopelessness to say that suicide is a coward's way out or say- go to hell.

A little more reading up on depression and suicide would help you understand that compassion is a must when dealing with those with suicidal tendencies.

dee, I agree. I think that people who never struggled with severe depression are, in general, extremely insensitive to those who have.

overall I found this author to be very immature. I am shocked that she is a practicing lawyer. she seems completely unable to see both sides of anything!

Dee: I am glad you said that.

On one hand the author makes the completely insensitive and callous "Go to hell" comment about people who are driven to suicide for varying reasons and on the other hand she says Jade Goody had the perfect romantic death. How is it romantic to die of cancer, not knowing how the future will treat your children and having your young kids be put through the horrifying experience of losing a parent.

How can anyone even say something like: "Either way would it have been any bigger than what her life is today? I don't think so"

How shallow. Is fame so important? Being a mother, seeing her kids through their difficult times, seeing them graduate, get married, helping them through relationship woes is much bigger than being on television and then bein forgotten by the fickle masses who frankly don't give a damn. I don't have kids but I still get that.

None of us know the kind of personal struggle she was going through when she found out about her illness and we can never know if her few minutes of fame did anything for her. It may have made sure she can create funds for her kids but just imagine the kind of agonizing fear it must be to know that you'll be gone in a few days.

How is all this romantic? Grow up.

And like Dee suggested pls read up on depression and why averting suicidal tendencies can be beyond a person's capability.

Sanjuktha, I dont know if you are immature or not like other commentators.

That is not for me to decide.

[Edited: Irrelevant to current post. Please stick to the topic of the article]

what I really like is that sanjukta has posted on her blog that the "he mothers of the world are pissed at this obituary. It’s just an obituary for christ sake, people really got too much of free time. Of course I don’t give a fuck."

nice attitude honey. you need to grow up. I did not like your piece not because i am a mother but because it was poorly written and poorly thought out. and it seems that you cannot even properly defend your thoughts, you just lash out nastily, and that too not even in this forum but on your own blog where we might have missed it.

how very, very mature. if you cannot take the heat, stay in your own delusional kitchen.

I don't know how this qualifies as an obituary. Really. It is one of the most senseless, immature pieces I have ever read. It is no surprise that kerty likes it. :)

I think I'm going to write an article about what I don't want people to say about me when I'm dead...especially in an obituary. For starters I would not want people to say that my early death of cancer was romantic. I also would not want people to rub in the fact that I "sold" my death, especially if it was commonly known that I did so to leave behind adequate funds for my kids.

Wow, Sanjukta. You sure have some allies in women here. ;)

Wondering if you wrote a post on your blog that took an opposite stance on some issue than the stance taken by the feminists here, which pissed them off. It's either that, or a collective that-time-of-the-month that's responsible for the hostile comments. :)

No hugs for Sanjukta. How dare she?

May be lightening rod hit her. I mean hugged her.

kaffir: feminism? really? you can see feminism in the criticism of this post? wow! did kerty bite you or is this thing contagious?

Apparently if educated, literate or seemingly opinionated women have any criticism of anything at all it is attributable to either feminism or PMS? You really believe that.

Very insecure and petty of you, I must say. You lose a lot of credibility by making such a comment.

kaffir: we edit hostile or antagonistic comments. above comments are valid criticism of the logic Sanjukta uses in her article to claim that it was best that Goody died, in establishing how her romantic death was a whole lot better than whatever life she would've had.

after I read your comment I read her blog. her blog has ample posts on feminism, very strong and bold opinions about feminism and women's rights. I agree with some of her perspectives and even liked a few of her posts on the blog. And yet find the above article in bad taste. Especially the comment about suicide.

BTW I think that correlating PMS with criticism just because its by women is just disrespectful, even if its a joke.

Source: PTI
March 27
Jack Tweed plans to auction off Goody's clothes

"London: Reality TV star Jade Goody's clothes will be auctioned by her widower Jack Tweed to raise money for cancer charities. Goody had died last Sunday after battling cervical cancer in the public eye in a bid to raise awareness about the disease."

"The part time model will keep some of Goody's prized possessions but her clothes will either be donated to Cancer Research charity shops or sold off to raise money for Marie Curie nurses, reported Sun online."

"A family friend told the newspaper, "Jack said he and Jade talked about what to do with her stuff when she was gone. She told him to give it away to shops or sell it, as long as the money went to a good cause."

Full article
http://movies.indiainfo.com/article/0903271900_ent-goody/327987.html

Kaffir:

"It's either that, or a collective that-time-of-the-month that's responsible for the hostile comments. :)"

beyond surreal and certainly not "funny". thus is another thread kertified beyond damnation, albeit by the sorcerer's apprentice kaffir, not the prophet himself. sad.

why do i have a massive headache? feminism perhaps is responsible for it?

cs:

right question...wrong answer;)

try cogener

Kaffir

Case of PC, not MC.

[Edited: Irrelevant to current post]

temporal,

not sure what's the equivalent of a kertified hangover...

A cogener is an impurity that is normally found in a lower quality wine, or in dark alcohols. Cogeners are one source of the story that cheap wines give you more headaches than expensive wines do. Methanol is a known cogener.

Cogeners are thought to cause hangovers, and in fact alcohol inhibits the action of the cogeners. That is, your hangover is usually delayed until after all the alcohol leaves your system and only the cogeners are left.

Sake breweries have often said that because the outer layer of rice is stripped of during the milling process, removing most of the fatty acids, that the higher quality sakes don't cause hangovers.

A very personally emotive and interesting take on Jade Goody's death, in my opinion. I liked it!

However, I do not agree with you on your take on suicide, but then again, that's your opinion, and I won't argue.

Cheers,
Ayan

Well, feminists are not really known for having a sense of humor, and that's apparent here.

24...either that or your joke is in poor taste and you don't want to admit it, so you are making up "sayings" about feminists :)

kerty does this all the time. He'll say things like "you know how they say..." and then make up a phrase that nobody really says except him.

Don't be so bitchy kaffir. Leave it to us feminists. :)

feminism? really? you can see feminism in the criticism of this post?

SD,
You need to read my comment (to which you responded) carefully before jumping to conclusions.

Apparently if educated, literate or seemingly opinionated women have any criticism of anything at all it is attributable to either feminism or PMS? You really believe that.

See comment #24. "Apparently" is correct, and I have no control over what's apparent to you - please take responsibility for yourself.

Very insecure and petty of you, I must say. You lose a lot of credibility by making such a comment.

Oops, how many "liberal credibility" points did that cost me, SD? Let me know and I'll just make up for them next time by agreeing with the "liberal" brigade and praising them.

I'd have said that you lose some points for lacking sense of humor, but I already know that about feminists, so no surprise there.

kaffir, what you have done is akin to the old "have you stopped hitting your wife, yes or no?" scenario where there is no answer for a person who has not hit his wife.

it's called a set up.

please stop your petty rubbish. your comment about menstruation was totally classless. it's not funny because it's stupid, not because we have no sense of humor.

get over yourself and get back on topic.

also, feminists really are known for having a sense of humor. like jon stewart, or colbert. both feminsts, both hysterical. kathy griffin, HYSTERICAL. and the funniest person ever? margaret cho... about as feminist as it gets. and no one is funnier than her.

Do you guys think out of these labels at all? All discussion has to have labels for every individual contributing ideas: feminist, liberal, elitist. Does that make you feel comfortable, like you know what to expect and thus feel more prepared and in control?

You guys don't know any of us personally. I have stated many times that a lot of views, political and social depend on context. You cannot tag someone liberal, feminist or something else based on a few exchanges on a forum. And to then bring up those labels during logical arguments may not exactly be personal attacks but it is definitely personal because you are not arguing with the comment or the logic but against your own perception of who the commentator is.

Even more interestingly, I have noticed that none of the people who you call "libbies" and "feminists" ever call you conservatives or male chauvinists. They have never tagged you or your ideas under some convenient label they can use to dismiss you.

I have already said that your so-called joke is crass and in poor taste. And there is no surprise there either!

SD they are not interested in truth, they are interested in attention.

let's stop giving it to them.

SS: And please add my favorite to that list. Ellen Degeneres: feminist, lesbian and the funniest person ever.

Unfortunately to be honest we are arguing with ignorance and sheer stupidity here.

This is how these couple of commentators have been shunting all threads into the same predictable few topics. You could sayt anything at all and if they don't like it then you'll immediately be called feminist or liberal :) Its annoying. So lets treat them like trolls and stop feeding them.

aditi, agreed... and agreed! :)

Ah yes, ss comes out to join her brigade. So loyal!! :)

kaffir: no I'm not uncomfortable with the labels themselves: very harmless ones actually. they are far better than being called a bigot or a chauvinist. but it is a turn off to have every discussion we are a part of to be marred by the labels. One would think people had better arguments than just thrusting forward a predictable label or name every time they came across a view or perspective they don't relate to. You must feel very threatened.

My friend's two yr old quacked and walked like a duck in her Halloween costume contest....wasn't a duck.

By the way do you know who points to a duck and screams "Duck" every time they see one no matter what the context: babies who are just learning to talk, say new words and want everybody to know that they can say "Duck!".

:)

kaffir: we feminists, with our horrifyingly liberal views and our bad senses of humor are no less loyal to each other than you are to kerty :)

Aditi, SD,SS, I have no problem being called a liberal feminist. I am proud to wear that label. I've suffered so many labels since being online they just slide off my duckie hide;)

Back to the topic at hand- there is a saying in Asia when a mother leaves behind young ones her soul never rests in peace. There is hardly any solace to be found in death. Anyone who has lost a loved one knows the heartache suffered for years together. I still miss my dad who I lost nearly ten years back. Can't imagine what Jade's young ones or mother must be going through.

thanks for bringing us back to the point, dee. and as aditi rightly pointed out, one does not need to be a parent to know that either. I mean, one only needs to have suffered loss or know that life is to be valued and also that we do not know so much about Jade Goody's life except what we've seen on the TV.

I just still do not know why the author has glorified and romanticized that. and it appears that she is also not going to tell us. which is odd. why bother to write here, then?

Kaffir,

Despite my ID, once in a while, even I misudge people...until now i never imagined you would turn out to be clone of the likes of kerty and ledzius. well, whatever works for you...

SS:

"and it appears that she is also not going to tell us. which is odd. why bother to write here, then?"

yup! the author seems to have washed her hands off this article; outsourced it to kerty and kaffir co. pvt. ltd. it seems

Sorry to but in here, but can we really "justify" or "defend" our feelings about a topic? (not factually derived opinions, but personal feelings)

If the author herself "feels" there is a sense of romance and greatness about dying young, so be it! The author is trying to juxtapose her personal feelings and beliefs with Jade Goody's death; whether Jade Goody actually felt like that is another matter.

We may also feel differently and have different opinions about it; at best we may not agree or criticize her (lack of?) feelings, but isn't it odd to ask explanations about why someone feels differently about something?


Cheers,
Ayan

SS, maybe she is testing the waters? Or maybe this was her way of being provocative or maybe she hasn't had the time to respond. We won't know till she responds I guess.

Death is a serious deal.

I don't get what difference would it make whether I am remembered or not once I am dead?

If someone was to tell me I was to die tomorrow I'd be worrying about the effect it would have on my loved ones and not whether I would be reported in the next day's papers.

Jade did it for her family and not to be famous after death. And in those drugged last moments that she slept through I'm quite sure she didn't dream that she was dying a famous heroine on reality tv.

Also I find this fascination with dying a Hunter S Thompson or Curt Cobain kind of death so bloody stupid. People romanticize Randy Rhoads's death as much as his legendary guitar work and that again was nothing more than an accident that could have been avoided.

Whats the fascination with wanting to die famous? The fact that we'd be remembered after hitting the bucket kind of depends upon the kind of lives we live. A well loved person would draw crowds of people over his funeral whereas a dead celebrity could hit the news and yet be forgotten once something more entertaining hits the media.

And death is an equalizer. Once we are dead we all on the same boat we are dead! End of story.

Ayan: "but can we really "justify" or "defend" our feelings about a topic?"

Sure. Why not? We should be able to at least as adults I think. Our feelings about a topic, our personal opinions or views can be due to personal experience, some logic, some reasoning. Why shouldn't we able to defend or justify them?

I for one would really like to know why the author is so convinced about the following:

"What would have happened if she had a longer healthier life? Perhaps she would have lived a happy life with husband and kids. May be she would have made it big as a star and would have been rich and famous. Or perhaps her new husband would have been old and boring one day. There would have been divorce and litigation over child custody. The children would have grown out of a broken marriage and taken to drugs"

Wow! Firstly, to speculate about what would've happened to a person if they would've lived on is attempting a gross over-stipulation. To split such a scenario into only two very narrow likelihoods is even more shallow.

And then to conclude with this is just beyond comprehension:

"Either way would it have been any bigger than what her life is today? I don't think so"

And you seriously don't think this conclusion deserves some logical explanation?

I would be more inclined to believe that there just is no excusable logic in coming to such a far fetched estimation of a life that was cut short way too soon.

Either that or the sentence should be worded differently. Instead of seeming like a conclusion it should be more of a personal derivation. For example:

"Either way, I would prefer dying young rather than living on to do bigger and better things or having children who through custody battles are now somehow addicted to pot"

If she said the above then that becomes her own death wish instead of a generic conclusion. As readers we would not fight the above because everybody has their own sense of what they want.

Personally I would want to live and find out....drug addicted kids can be sent into re-hab and a broken marriage has several alternatives.

But death is always a permanent solution for a temporary problem. In Goody's case it wasn't even her own choice. And so it makes the above article sound devastatingly callous. Its like she were talking about a character in a novel. Made me shudder to be honest.

Aditi, point taken. I do agree with you on the "wordings" of the author's conclusion, which she could have personalized more.

Cheers,
Ayan

"what it really means to live before you die, how it doesn’t matter how long you live but how much you live."

That is right out of Rajesh Khanna's 'Anand', one of the Bolywood's best movies, IMHO and my all-time fav. Anand Saigal of 'Anand' was a loser in his life and loner in his death, but lived every dying moment for others, and lived as if he was preparing for a long life. Anand joined the drama troupe and did lots of theatrics to win the love and affection. Anand craved affection and attention and filled his dying life with theatrics, and non-serious stuff, and in the end endeared everybody around him and the audiences. I have watched Anand several times, and it moves me every time. Goody seems to have lived the script right out of Anand. Jindagi Lambi Na Bhi ho, Badi Honi Chahiye.

OK Kerty, but what if that movie was not Goody's definition of living a fulfilled life?

Aditi, I would also want to understand the author's reasoning for my depressed people should go to hell. and how she might explain the dichotomy of the her romanticizing dying young but the fact that she feels people who CHOOSE to die young "suck." How does that work? what sort of mental machinations did she do to arrive at that point?

She is a lawyer, she surely must have her reasons.

[Edited: Irrelevant. We are not discussing feminism and quotes]

SS:"what if that movie was not Goody's definition of living a fulfilled life?"

We do not know what Goody's definition of 'fulfilled life' is except how she chose to live it. Nobody chooses to die, but die we all, sooner or later. It is how we choose to live and how we face death that makes a statement about us, and leaves a legacy. In case of Goody, she was handed lemons, all her life, and she chose to make Lemonade out of it, and we applaud her for that. Goody may have many flaws, but in death, we recognize the good in Goody and pay tribute to a departed soul. If her family, charities or cancer awareness get something out of it, we try to be generous. It is her day in the spot light, and it will soon be over and forgotten. So lets be generous and charitable for the moment. I can also find many flaws in Goody, in Sanjukta's article and the comments in this thread, but they can wait. This is about Goody, it is her moment, and the occasion calls for our tributes and prayers.

but kerty, this article was not really as much a tribute to goody as it was an exploration of the author's view that goody was better off dead, IMHO. If it had just been a tribute to Goody, I would have said "may she rest in peace, and may her children remember her well" and left it at that, as I feel a lot of sympathy for her. but that is not what this article was, so that was not my reaction. the author made all kinds of ridiculous and basically indefensible claims about Goody and her kids, and if you are so empathetic toward Goody I would imagine you would be more annoyed by the assertions made here.

how is basically saying her kids are better off without her, as the author has here, any kind of tribute to Goody?!?!??!

SD, thanks!! I see no shame in being compared to children - they have their innocence, and don't feel the need out of insecurity to take a sentence out of context, like you did with the "walks..quacks like a duck", to score a point. :)

The world we see today (with all its stupidity) is because of adults and their actions - so there's not much to be proud of by claiming that you're an adult. I mean, you're free to claim some higher ground for yourself because you're an adult, but I could care less.
*shrug*

Kaffir,

My point in #37? Seems crystal clear to me and to you too, that you and Kerty have a one-point plan to inject "feminism", "libbies" and now even PMS, regardless of the topic at hand, but if you want me to play along and pretend to acknowledge your pretence that you do not understand what my point is, i will for sure pretend that i do not see through your pretence. get it? yes or no, it's all the same isn't it?

And Kaffir, once you figure out since when the injection of "PMS" as a causal factor in any argument counts as "humor" (even though "humor" does refer to fluids too, but i am sure that's not what you meant and even if you did, that would be worse than you intended), do let us know.

Hmm. The reason I chose not to respond earlier was because we wouldn't be constructing anything positive by such misplaced lament. I have really got over these flame wars on forums and blogs. Also, I thought there are always all kinds of people reading an article, some like it some don't, so while half of them attack there would always be the other half to see the point, and it wouldn't be necessary to summon the author. But as I am, so here is my rejoinder.

First, what a faulty assumption on the reader’s part that my intentions are to convey Jade is better off dead. That's like the most ridiculous thing one could come across. Why on earth would I ever want to say that the person for whom I am writing a tribute is actually better off dead?

As it seems for most of you definition of tribute only means shedding a lot of tears and be in utter misery, pretend like the world has come to an end, that not one more bird would sing and not one more flower would bloom anywhere, that the departed’s family is doomed forever. Oh c’mon, who are we fooling? Nothing in this world stops by the death of one person. Jade’s death is not the only young and famous death that I have seen. My friend died at 26, yet another famous death and I know exactly what happened to the people she left behind. Nothing stopped for most of them except for the parents may be, and even for the parents life may not be exactly the same but it still goes on.

I glorified death, of course I did, what’s wrong with that? Are you to tell me that death is only about fear, misery and sympathy? Death can never have glory? People die all the time, no big deal but most die an insignificant silent death shedding tears and feeling sorry for themselves and the family they are leaving behind. The way you embrace death is what makes you a hero, an inspiration for others. In Jade I see that hero. She gives me the strength to look at death not with fear but with glamour. If I found out I was to die tomorrow I would see that as an opportunity to do something big, unique, interesting…may be I’ll write a book, may be I’ll write a live blog of my approaching death, may be I’ll make a live TV show. Other people may want to spend their last hours in their privacy shedding tears and feeling scared that they’ll not see their children growing up. That’s their wish. But I won’t do that. When death is standing round the corner, death would become the purpose of my life and I wouldn’t really have the time to waste in tears.

I don’t know what Jade was thinking in her dying moments. Do you people know? Aditi, SS, Deepti? Refer comment #1 by SS - Do you really know she was scared out of her mind? You don’t know her personally do you? May be she was happy that she was famous, that in spite of losing the big brother show and being hated by all for her racial comments she was the most loved person in her last hours. May be she was not worrying about her children, because she knew they’ll be alright, time will heal everything. May be? But no, that’s not what you want to believe, because that’s not the convention, that’s not the ‘right’ thing for a dying mother to be thinking, how can a dying mother be so selfish to not think of her children? How can she think of her fame at her dying moments instead of being scared of death?

And you all call yourselves feminist liberals. Heard of gender deconstruction? If you are a feminist liberal you’d know, not all women live in the glorified sense of motherhood. Not all women are touchy about their children and husband. For some fame might mean everything, for some success and glamour might mean more than family and other emotional crap. And my respect is to all of them. My respect is for all women irrespective of what their priorities are, but that wouldn’t go down too well with the great mothers, would it?

And why restrict Jade’s identity to that of a mother and wife? Why not see her as an aspiring model / actress? I am sorry but that’s quite a clichéd understanding of woman hood, doesn’t go down to well with the liberal feminism, womanhood is not all about motherhood for Christ sake, that's one of the most forced gender constructs.

And the righteous women here so easily jumped to my personal status and labeled me as someone who doesn't have a husband and children, an unsatisfied bitter & lonely spinster. (comment #1 by SS) Talk of labels? Like every time they can’t argue back anymore they call us feminist, every time the ‘good’ women can’t argue anymore with the unconventional ones they call them spinster, loose, slut etc. Because I don’t have a husband and children I don’t have sensitivity. That’s what you are suggesting.

Deepti @comment #40 â€" how you approach your death is purely your choice, but are you to tell me that if I approach it any differently my approach is in anyway inferior to yours? Or are you to tell me that you cannot even imagine / accept there could be any other way to approach but the one you have chosen? You may not be worried about whether it is reported in next day’s papers, I would. Does that make you holier than me? If not, then what are we arguing for? Why are the women folks so shocked at the glorification of death? How do you know what Jade did was only for her family and not for herself, and assuming she did it for herself - does that make her a bad person? I don’t think like that do you? Are we getting into a good girl bad girl debate here?

Aditi N @comment # 41 â€" I begin the whole post by saying I have romanticized young and famous death for myself at various emotionally weak points of my life, how much more explanation do you need to understand that the nature of this post is personal.

The only sensible argument in this whole thread is the one against my comment towards people who are suicidal. That was an un thoughtful comment I admit, but I didn’t mean to say I actually want suicidal people to go to hell or that I would myself push them off the cliff instead of trying to stop them. What I meant is that I don’t usually feel sympathetic towards people who have given up all hope, sweet talking is not something I do. Of course if I found out one of my friend is suicidal I’ll try to save him/her but my approach wouldn’t be that of ‘Oh poor baby don’t kill your self’ but that of ‘you loser what would you achieve by killing yourself.’

SS @comment #44 â€" the dichotomy is quite simple, being suicidal sucks but not dying young. So even if there is glory in death I am not the one to turn suicidal for the sake of that glory. But that I might be destined to die young and famous is fascinating to me.

Lastly, one common thing here is that all of us are trying to talk about what Jade’s life could have been if she didn’t die, but that is not for us to speculate. I speculated two extreme possibilities to make the point that whichever way we speculate, it wouldn’t make any difference because she is in fact dead. So what we need do is look at her death and not at the life she could have had. And the way I look at it, I see heroism and glory in her death.

"And the righteous women here so easily jumped to my personal status and labeled me as someone who doesn't have a husband and children, an unsatisfied bitter & lonely spinster. (comment #1 by SS) Talk of labels? Like every time they can’t argue back anymore they call us feminist, every time the ‘good’ women can’t argue anymore with the unconventional ones they call them spinster, loose, slut etc. Because I don’t have a husband and children I don’t have sensitivity. That’s what you are suggesting."

wow, you sure made a massive leap there, woman. don't ascribe that to me. you did that all in your own [EDITED] head, and also the bit about the "poor spinster." I never said it, I never implied it, and you went there all on your own.

what I did both imply and say is that you surely have different priorities as a single person without a child, and I will stand by that statement. It was not a value judgment, it was a statement of fact.

[EDITED]

Dear Sanjukta,

Excellent reply! I don't necessarily agree with everything you say in your article, but I really liked your reply. I love the DC community, but there is a tendency here to gang up against certain individuals and see everything they do through a colored prism. Being politically correct should not become an ideology in itself. We need to see individuals as having nuanced opinions and principles and debate them on the merits of their arguments rather than their personalities. Without naming names, I see here many people jump to conclusions about author's lives, they character, their likes and dislikes. By constructing this image in their mind, they destroy the objectivity that's needed in a civil debate. It is not conducive to a healthy debate and just leads to personal recriminations. I guess we all need to live and learn.

Regards,

Ravi

What I meant is that I don’t usually feel sympathetic towards people who have given up all hope, sweet talking is not something I do. Of course if I found out one of my friend is suicidal I’ll try to save him/her but my approach wouldn’t be that of ‘Oh poor baby don’t kill your self’ but that of ‘you loser what would you achieve by killing yourself.’

You loser? here is what you need to understand that what 'they' want to achieve is to end their suffering. Tough love doesn't work. You cannot kick a wounded dog who already thinks he is the worst piece of shit on the face of the earth.

Yes sensitivity is important and getting them to a therapist even more important. Manic depression is like any other form of illness and when an individual is in the grip of untold suffering they are not weak they are powerless. There is a difference.

As far as Jade Gooding's feelings go and whether she was scared or not - her interviews and reality show clearly reflect what her state of mind was. She was devastated when she found out she suffered from cancer. She tried to live a full life, steal every minute that she could to be with her loved ones. She made it amply clear that she did not do the show to be 'famous' but to ensure her kids had a financially secure future. It was a mother's worry not a celebrity's dying wish. Ands thats what won everyone's heart. You may want to put a different spin to it but that is not how it was for her.


She gives me the strength to look at death not with fear but with glamour. If I found out I was to die tomorrow I would see that as an opportunity to do something big, unique, interesting…may be I’ll write a book, may be I’ll write a live blog of my approaching death, may be I’ll make a live TV show. Other people may want to spend their last hours in their privacy shedding tears and feeling scared that they’ll not see their children growing up. That’s their wish. But I won’t do that. When death is standing round the corner, death would become the purpose of my life and I wouldn’t really have the time to waste in tears.

We all have definite ideas of what we would do when certain situations crop up but when shit really hits the roof we find ourselves behaving in ways that we never thought we would.

Dear SS,

I didn't want to do this, but couldn't resist as it came so close to my own previous post.

"wow, you sure made a massive leap there, WOMAN don't ascribe that to me. you did that all in your own LITTLE HEAD, and also the bit about the "poor spinster." I never said it, I never implied it, and you went there all on your own."

"For a lawyer, YOUR ABILITY to reason seems to be a little hampered."

(emphasis mine)

Regards,

Ravi

well you're going to have to explain what you mean, Ravi, as I do not get your emphasis.

I criticized her, and she made some pretty ridiculous assumptions based on that criticism. I have a right to reply. fine, should I have said "little head"? maybe not, but I am so sick of people making illogical statements then whining when they get called out for them.

Sanjukta: Thanks for your response. Firstly, I apologize for the unsolicited advice but pls alter your approach with the suicidal friend and say "my friend, lets take you to a psychiatrist/ therapist and meanwhile I will stay with you and tell you of all the reasons you shouldnt give up on life". This approach might save your friend's life. One cannot talk those out of suicide whose tendencies are governed by chemical imbalances in their mind and body. I am glad you realized how that came across as insensitive.

Now as someone who has been in the writing field, both technical and creative, I have come to accept that there is no such thing as "faulty assumption on part of the reader". :) If 4 out of 5 people have misconstrued your tone and words then it likely has something to do with the way you have communicated your thoughts and less likely to be all of us deriving the same exact faulty conclusions. In my comment #41 I specify exactly what words led me to believe that your conclusions were generic and not personal.

Now you ask some of us why we call ourselves feminist liberals and remind us that not all women live in this "glorified sense of motherhood". I am not a mother. I don't glorify motherhood. I am single, independent, career woman and do consider myself a feminist-liberal. Frankly, the thought of having kids scares me a little. Not everybody wants to be a mom and its not like everyone should be. Feminity should not be slave to reproduction. Agreed. But all this does not erase the fact that Goody was in fact a mother. We are not exalting her motherhood or putting it up on a pedestal as you seem to think but merely reminding you that she might have had this other, more gratifying life which watch snatched away by her early death that we as outsiders may not have gotten a glimpse into. We were merely pointing out that in the list of scenarios you present in your article, her role of mother too played a part. A look at that identity of Goody's is enough to tell us that her death was far from romantic.

While it is not necessary that amotherhood be glorified, neither feminism nor liberalism dismisses motherhood as one of the identities of women. I am not sure why you would think that makes us women any less of feminists or liberals. :)

Now having said all that, I must add, I enjoyed visiting your blogs and reading some of your posts. You seem to have an independent writing style and some unique perspectives. Even though some of us may have sounded overtly critical of the logic you presented in this post, we do look forward to more of your writing here on DC.

There comes a time when people don't see our point or have a different one. That doesn't mean they are any less right than we are. I guess it just means that every situation or issue has several different ways it can be looked at. For example, as someone who works in the field of cancer, I have met and interacted with terminally ill patients who are at the brink of death and don't want to die. They are desperate to live and I have seen the fear in their eyes, both young and old, when the light goes out from them. So I personally could not relate at all to the "young death is romantic" perspective. But if you found Goody's death romantic for your own personal reasons then I respect that. To each his own.

sanjukta's reponse reminds me of the adage: "what is mine is mine; what's yours is hereby unceremoniously deconstructed"

aka: everybody is entitled to my unique viewpoint. any other interpretation is of course, "politically correct" and therefore uniquely, nothing but fodder for deconstruction.

Are we still discussing abt feminisim. I agree with Sanjuktha that women are mainly non-mothers first and rest follow. Thats how the court treats us men. Lawyers wud know.

Ladies first
WOmen next
Elders thereafter
children attached
husbands next
bachelors last

I am constructing myself behind others led by Sanjuktha.

we all define ourselves by our circumstances and there is nothing wrong with any of it. there should be no value judgment in it. but factually speaking who you are does inform what you find important. and feminism does let us all know that just because you become a mother, you do not stop being a human being and cease to exist as an individual.

and I think again, we can speculate all we want to about jade goody's feelings about parenting but she SAID in numerous interviews and on her show that she was scared to death for her kids and heartbroken that she would not see them grow up. so really, all this speculation was worthless.

it seems the author is merely being defensive. sorry sanjukta, but you do not know me. I became a wife and a mom very late in life. I was one who really never planned to do either, and I was more than happy with it that way. but life changed. now my life is different. but do not ever try to pin me as someone who looks down on singles. it rings very false given my life up until 3 years ago.

Why are you people fighting over here.. It is a simple phenomenon..

People who live in a family kind of environment, kids etc around wont like this post and they shouldn't. But people who live an independent environment not for the family n all but for their own would kinda agree with this.

It is just a matter of perspective.

Although Jade comes in the first category so i think we should pay her regards in that manner only.

I bet Jade would have been a zillion times more happy if she had lived for more 40 years instead of this romanticized public coverage death. She was a mother, a wife, a career woman and what not.

Those people are also humans, and its not always about PR.

Death is a painful thing, you can take it happily smiling on camera, or crying. You know one thing

Admitting you are not heroic is the most heroic of all!

I rest my case

Nobody is fighting here. Presenting conflicting views is not fighting. People can have different opinions and are also allowed to critique the logic of an article.

And what "family kind of an environment"?? WTF? I made it clear in above comments that I am single and independent. I don't live in a "family kind of an environment" and yet found some of the statements in the article illogical.

Just because someone doesn't agree with a certain perspective does not mean you have to immediately find a lable to tag them under. That is juvenile.

we feminists, with our horrifyingly liberal views and our bad senses of humor are no less loyal to each other than you are to kerty

Aditi, kerty is a one-man army - he doesn't need any loyal people, and least of all, me. :)

...and yet that hasn't stopped you from being here to defend him. :)

Aditi,
I very much doubt that I defended any point that kerty raised in this thread. My comment was an observation of a pattern of the responses by some women to Sanjukta's post. :)

kaffir: Not to drag this but this statement here is a good example of defending someone (or maybe just loyal ardor, I dunno, take your pick): "kerty is a one-man army - he doesn't need any loyal people, and least of all, me"

To borrow from your comment: My comment too was an observation of a pattern of the responses to a lot of posts on DC, not just Sanjukta's article.

And lets face it, Comment 63 does support my point. :)

BTW since we are all (SS, Dee, me and other "women") according to your own deduction liberal, feminists, don't you think we would agree on a lot of issues. I'm not sure if that is loyalty to each other or to our own idealogies. Think about it. :)

Kaffir:

"Aditi, kerty is a one-man army - he doesn't need any loyal people, and least of all, me. :)"

not. kerty and kaffir co. pvt. unlimited

There is no ganging up going on. There are no victims here. If you post an article or comment on Desicritics be ready to defend your viewpoint. We have all been on the hot seat here.

BTW since we are all (SS, Dee, me and other "women") according to your own deduction liberal, feminists, don't you think we would agree on a lot of issues. I'm not sure if that is loyalty to each other or to our own idealogies. Think about it. :)

Aditi,
Shias and Sunnis willingly blow each other up, but when it comes to Danish cartoons, it doesn't stop either of them to put their bombs away and unite together. One does not negate the other, and it's all in the context.

Yes, I was including "commonsense" when I wrote "women." ;)

And no, my comment #63 does not support your point. Au contraire. :)

BTW, check out the new research study that shows women's shopping spree linked to PMS. *grin*

I believe there's already a study that shows women wear skimpier clothes to bars and clubs when they're ovulating. It's biology, which trumps PC-ness. *shrug*

And I'm done here.

yawn. kaffir is trying to be provocative and instead is just plain predictable.

kaffir, honey, you're played out.

Kaffir:

"Yes, I was including "commonsense" when I wrote "women." ;)"

kaffir, should i assume that this is the ultimate putdown for a man, in your register? your sexism surfaces despite your effort to the contrary. is there are scientific paper that supports your contention, with stats, charts and graphs, that to label (taunt?) a man a woman is as bad as it gets??! (according to you ie. )

How feminism is even comparable to two sects of a religion is beyond my comprehension.

Your comment 63 does support my hypothesis that you are an ardent/ loyal-fan/ supporter of kerty's. If you find that insulting and wish to deny it then hey...I don't blame you at all.

I do wish that lack of credible argument wouldn't have pushed you into stipulating our GYN details and monthly cycles. Insinuating that no woman can generate valid criticism merely because her monthly cycle renders her incompetent or because she is a feminist is beyond sexist. It is desperate hand-waving in place of logic. What else will you throw at us kaffir? Tampons? Birth control pills? Bras? :) Pray tell us what else makes us of the cursed female species so kooky? :)

SS: You are too kind in calling him just "predictable". I can think of a few choicest words that would sadly go against our comment policy. :)

Aditi:

"Your comment 63 does support my hypothesis that you are an ardent/ loyal-fan/ supporter of kerty's. If you find that insulting and wish to deny it then hey...I don't blame you at all."

i wouldn't blame him either. kertification of the mind being the worst fate any human or non-human can be inflicted with. unless of course kerty himself de-kertifies himself, much as Ledzius on another thread..

What else will you throw at us kaffir? Tampons? Birth control pills? Bras? :)

Before all that stuff is thrown at us can I let him know the brands I prefer?;)

You know you guys are going nowhere with the arguments...I for one am totally lost, though very flattered :)

Flattered? Really? Why are you flattered Sanjukta?! What part of the above exchanges flatters you? Now I am totally lost.

You are either very new to DC or have not taken a good look around. I have a humble suggestion which of course you can choose not to do. Pls. try to read some of the previous posts/ articles on DC by people on the thread: Deepti, Aditi, SS, Ravi Kulkarni, cs. See some of the comments by above commentators: kaffir, kerty etc to a few other posts. It might clue you in to what perspectives people (certain regulars on DC) hold and how you should perceive their comments. Of course this is a wide forum and you will see all kinds of commentators. But I do think it might be worthwhile for you to check out the people who hang out at DC most.

Sanjukta,

as the adage goes, "nobody, almost nobody, is immune to flattery"

however since i see no signs of anyone trying to flatter you, like you i am lost too! however, if it takes so little, nothing actually, for you to feel flattered, please be my guest!

I think the fact that the thread on her post is still active pleases her:)

well if you read her blog you will see she is not new to this. seems she picks a forum, goes and stirs a hornet's nest then either gets giddy with excitement about it or whines about being a victim of some evil plot and tries to control the whole thing.

it is rather strange behavior.

sanjukta, this forum is what it is. you write a piece then you engage in discussion... good, bad or indifferent. but abusing your readers will not get you far here, that is for sure. we have no divas and I do not think we're giving out a crown anytime soon.

There are too many strong headed personalities here for anyone to be able to get an upper hand. But anyone is welcome to try at their own risk;)

Britain has really gone to the dogs since Goody's death. I am told that there is an increment in the number of CCTV cameras at civilian settlements these days. They now have 6 per home.
I suspect that the Liberal Democrats will win the next elections.
(I am told they will field Eddie Izzard as their lead candidate for prime ministership.)
Sordid!

Ok, so where exactly were we?