NEWS

Israel Attacks Gaza: Over 200 Killed

December 27, 2008
Ruvy

On Saturday, striking Arab terrorists on the Jewish sabbath, the Israel Air Corps attacked the Hamas compounds in Gaza City. According to Debkafiles the attacks began a half hour before noon, Israel Winter Time, and have continued throughout the day, with the latest attack occurring this evening (27 December) as a vehicle was bombed in Khan Yunis in the southern portion of the Gaza Strip. This came after Arab terrorists launched over 200 rockets at Israel's south after the conclusion of a so-called "truce". It should also be noted here that Arab terrorists from various groups have fired over 6,000 rockets and missiles at Israel since the unilateral Israeli destruction of Gush Qatif and withdrawal from the Strip in 2005.

Latest casualty figures in Gaza are 205 dead, over 300 wounded and thousands of shock victims. According to Israeli officials this is "just the beginning" but past experience with such statements from the IDF of late have proven to be more bluster than reality although no Israeli news source will come out and say this openly. According to the Debkfiles report, Egypt condemned Israel for the attack, but on the other hand condemned Hamas for failing to protect the Arab population under its control and for failing to heed its warnings.

Arab retaliation has already begun. A man was killed by a rocket launched at Netivot this evening and it can be expected that if the Arabs follow through with their threats, rockets will be launched to hit targets in Ashkelon, Ashdod, Kiryat Gat, Yavne and other towns and cities extending all the way to Be'ersheva. According to Arutz Sheva, during the day in Jerusalem there were a number of rock throwing incidents in Arab neighborhoods and in the Old City, and this evening, an Arab driver attempted to run over a policeman.

If one can attempt to analyze the events cold-heartedly, the Israel regime is trying to eliminate Hamas as a political factor in the region because it has had reasonably good relations with the PLO in the past and Hamas is getting in the way of a good business deal. It should not be forgotten that the same man who was Ariel Sharon's personal advisor, Avi Weissglass, also was the attorney for the Arab firm handling business for the late Yassir Arafat. There has been an on-going civil war in the Arab controlled portions of Judea and Samaria, with PLO operatives arresting and torturing Hamas operatives with the backing of the IDF and the Israel government.

However, the far more relevant question for residents of South Asia is this: Is Israel providing India a model for what it should do in the wake of Mumbai?

Ruvy, born in New York, moved to Minnesota where he managed a Burger King and wrote stories. In addition to writing for Blogcritics Magazine, he is editor for the Root & Branch Information Service. Formerly living in Jerusalem, he lives with his family in Ma'alé Levoná where he is a freelance editor and writer.
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#1
Chandra
December 27, 2008
09:30 PM


The Israeli approach is crazy! Only a lunatic would follow the Israeli model

#2
Muslims Against Sharia
URL
December 27, 2008
10:04 PM

Hypocrisy in Action:
Where were Egypt, Russia, OIC, EU, Britain, Sarkozy, US & Austria when Hamas was pounding Israel with daily barrage of rockets?

#3
Ruvy
URL
December 28, 2008
01:05 AM

Looking for updates on this "offensive" against Hamas, I found this at Arutz Sheva. From the update:

The IDF released a statement saying the mosque that was targeted had been used to shelter terrorists. "Terrorists won't find shelter anywhere," officials warned.


That is the bright side of things.

Samson Blinded, a blog that provides an acerbic view of events here noted that "In a cheap show of fake statesmanship, the two political losers suspend the campaign which they have lost, anyway. For Livni and Barak, the Gaza operation is the best election advertising imaginable. Far from ceasing their election campaign, they conduct it at the expense of Jewish lives and the state's money.

In the interview to newsru (a Russian news source), Livni confirmed her allegiance to the disengagement from Gaza, though it led to rocket barrages. Livni said she believes that Hezbollah adheres to the Resolution 1701 on ceasefire in Lebanon, though the terrorist groups violates it daily by reinforcing its arsenals.

Livni supported Israeli ban on Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount. She avoided the request to state the points of difference between Kadima and Avoda (Labor)."

In other words for all the Jewish soldiers whose lives will be put at risk to weaken Hamas, Livni still bows at the idol of appeasing Arab terrorists, and still would keep Jews from the holiest site in our faith and our nation, the Temple Mount.

In a separate item on media coverage of events yesterday, the Samson Blinded Blog noted the general themes of hypocrisy referred to in comment #2 above. From the item:
The UN's chief suddenly became "deeply alarmed" at the situation in Gaza. Thousands of rockets which showered Israeli Negev caused no similar alarm.

According the Tony Blair the anti-Semite, "the loss of life in Gaza requires immediate calm." The loss of life - and a lot of limbs - in Sderot didn't require such calm, of course.
Our biggest friend Bush also called on the IDF to cease and desist, but thankfully mentioned that Hamas is to blame. Why don't we call on the US Army to cease its operations in Iraq? Closer still, we can demand that the US Administration ceases to protect its southern border and removes all rangers immediately. No? Then don't bug us.
Russia and the EU... Ah, you know what they have said.

Egypt summoned Israeli ambassador to condemn the attack on Gaza. Isn't it bizarre that Egypt, which started four wars with us and, by the way, killed scores of Gazan Arabs with indiscriminate shelling, has suddenly embraced pacifism?
In the friendly Jordan, a mass rally in Amman voiced support for Hamas, a terrorist group at war with Israel.

All over Israel, our loyal Arab citizens rioted in support of Gaza.

#4
Ruvy
URL
December 28, 2008
01:20 AM

Apparently the comment #2 that I referred to was removed by an editor at Desicritics. I keep forgetting that this site does have an agenda and it is generally anti-Israel, if not anti-Jewish. Let it stand that when Jews die, the world media is generally content to remain silent. When Jews kill in retaliation, the world media and the monkeys performing for it all jump up and down in outrage.

For evidence of this. let's go to the blogsite of Tamar Yonah, a radio host at Arutz Sheva.

From her entry of 30 Kislev/27 December:

A gorey news story came out about what really took place at the Nariman House in Mumbai, India. Rabbi Holtzberg and his wife were sexually humiliated, were forced to strip naked, and had their genitals mutilated. The only reports released to the public after the massacre that let us know what happened to the Jews in the Nariman House were that of a Mumbai doctor with the police, who came on the scene and remarked to the press, "Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks.". That's all we were told. However, according to the Mumbai Mirror, we find out (only this last week) that this holy rabbi and his wife were sexually mutilated. You can see the VERY DISTURBING photo of the bodies (that was emailed to me by a listener of mine) at Pam Geller's 'Atlas Shrugs' blog. I tip my hat to Pam for exposing this atrocity committed and letting us know what the Mumbai Mirror reported.


Not a peep from all the righteous politicians or the Arab-owned CNN, or even Faux News.

#5
Ruvy
URL
December 28, 2008
06:36 AM

This is the lazy man's method of doing updates:

At the News Briefs site at Arutz Sheva, this is a lis of updates since motza'ei shabbat or the end of the Sabbath (or to be precise, since when someone arrived in the Arutz Sheva studio to post updates to the website after Sabbath). If you go to the link above, you will see that each newsbrief is a separate link by itself. Since I only get to post three links per comment, it pays to send this to you instead. Otherwise I'd be posting as dozen comments or so, and as much as I love sending you all messages, it gets a bit burdensome.

Latest News Briefs
UPDATE: Electricity Restored throughout Israel
13:23 - Dec. 28, '08
Power Outage Caused by Ashdod Plant
13:17 - Dec. 28, '08
Rocket Attack in Ashkelon
13:07 - Dec. 28, '08
Power Outage in Central Region
12:06 - Dec. 28, '08
Rockets Explode in Ashkelon Area
11:02 - Dec. 28, '08
Israel Manufacturers Gearing up to Gaza
10:51 - Dec. 28, '08
Kadafi Wants to Withdraw Peace Plan
10:26 - Dec. 28, '08
UN: Cease Gaza Violence
10:10 - Dec. 28, '08
IAF Strikes Gaza City Gov't Offices
09:53 - Dec. 28, '08
Rockets Explode in Negev
09:47 - Dec. 28, '08
4 Rockets Fired into Negev, No Injuries
09:36 - Dec. 28, '08
IAF Strikes Rocket Launchers, Hamas TV Station
09:31 - Dec. 28, '08
Hotline Established for Sderot Residents
09:04 - Dec. 28, '08
Supplies to Enter Gaza
08:56 - Dec. 28, '08
IAF Strikes Gaza Targets
08:50 - Dec. 28, '08
New Emergency Number for Sderot
08:41 - Dec. 28, '08
Report: Gaza Can Fire 200 Rockets per Day
08:27 - Dec. 28, '08
General Strike in Arab Sector
08:11 - Dec. 28, '08
Gaza Terrorists Kill Gaza Children
07:56 - Dec. 28, '08
Rocket Victim to be Buried at 11:30
07:40 - Dec. 28, '08
Sderot Schools Closed
07:25 - Dec. 28, '08
Arab MKs Oppose Gaza Op.
07:09 - Dec. 28, '08
Hamas Confirms Death of Senior Members
06:54 - Dec. 28, '08
Holocaust Memoir Canceled
06:36 - Dec. 28, '08
Report: Olmert Told Assad his Terms
06:18 - Dec. 28, '08
Netivot: Residents Found Locked Shelter
06:00 - Dec. 28, '08
UN to Discuss 'Cast Lead'
05:43 - Dec. 28, '08
IAF Attacks TV Station, Mosque in Gaza
05:23 - Dec. 28, '08
Gaza Arab Hurt by Kassam Being Treated in Israel
03:59 - Dec. 28, '08
Iran Sending Another Ship to Gaza
02:59 - Dec. 28, '08
Businesses Gear Up for Emergency Services
01:59 - Dec. 28, '08
Ground Forces Gather for Possible Operation Expansion
00:59 - Dec. 28, '08
Five Leftist Protesters Arrested in Tel Aviv
23:59 - Dec. 27, '08
Tributes Pour In for Zafrir Ronen z"l
23:28 - Dec. 27, '08
Court Orders Michael Ratzon Restored to 24th Likud Slot
23:20 - Dec. 27, '08
Hamas: Twenty More Terrorists Killed Saturday Night
23:00 - Dec. 27, '08
Uzi Landau: Dismantle Inciteful Jaffa 'Mourner's Tent'
22:40 - Dec. 27, '08
Mashal Calls for Third Intifada
22:20 - Dec. 27, '08
Security Tighter in Israel and Around the World
22:00 - Dec. 27, '08
Homesh March Cancelled Over Gaza Operation
21:45 - Dec. 27, '08
Netanyahu: Likud Supports Attacks; Meretz: Truce Now
21:30 - Dec. 27, '08
Analysts: Expect Major Drop on TASE Sunday
21:00 - Dec. 27, '08
Olmert: Israeli Intelligence Kept Gaza Civilians Safe
20:45 - Dec. 27, '08
Homefront Command Updates Web Site With Safety Info
20:30 - Dec. 27, '08
Victim of Netivot Attack: Beber Vaknin, 58
20:15 - Dec. 27, '08
Egyptian FM: Hamas Rockets Caused IDF Attack
20:00 - Dec. 27, '08
Election Campaigning on Hold Because of Gaza Operation
19:45 - Dec. 27, '08
White House: Hamas to Blame for Gaza Attack
19:30 - Dec. 27, '08
Arab Tries to Run Over Israeli Policeman in Jerusalem
19:01 - Dec. 27, '08
IAF Destroys Hamas 'Cinema City' Propaganda Studio
18:50 - Dec. 27, '08
Livni: Today is the Beginning of Gaza 'Reality Change'
18:40 - Dec. 27, '08

#6
Deepti Lamba
URL
December 28, 2008
09:08 AM

Comment 2 back on board, somehow it got marked as spam

#7
Ruvy
URL
December 28, 2008
09:22 AM

My apologies, Deepti.... I retract my comment about the site having an anti-Israel agenda.

#8
Ruvy
URL
December 28, 2008
10:06 AM

My apologies to Sarah Islam for posting this update to her article. It was meant for my own.

I received this e-mail a few moments ago:
Ashdod, Gan Yavne, Yavne and Eshkol Region joined the attacked areas

More Katuyshas were fired at the various areas mentioned above. The range of targets like from Lebanon in the old days if 40KM or 25 miles. Gaza can be seen from Ashdod and visa versa on a clear day so targeting is easy.

According to foreign stations based on Gaza Sources 280 have died in the raids so far and perhaps some under the rubble. 600 Arabs wounded. Barak keeps the humanitarian aid of food and medical supplies flowing so as not to get the wrath of the world while the UN calls for a cease fire. Who listens?

Even the PLO condemns Hamas and the rest of the neighboring Arabs are paying lip service. A limited call up of 6000 reservists have been authorized. Schools 8in the south closed.


End of e-mail
.................................................
tzav shmóne - mobilization orders - have been issued for 6,700 reservists according to Ynetnews. The government would like us all to believe this will be a hard and long war. It will be hard on those on whose heads the bombs will fall, and on those soldiers who have to fight, but I fail to be convinced that it will be long.

The PA let the cat out of the bag this morning, confirming my analysis in the article, and confirming, in essence, an article found in World Net Daily. This morning the Jerusalem Post carried an article saying that the PA was ready to resume control in Gaza as soon as Hamas had been wiped out. The article in the World Net Daily said that MaHmoud Abbas had been lobbying the Israelis for months to attack Hamas before his term ran out on 9 January. That gives us a time frame for this campaign - about two weeks.

Finally, near where the incoming Jerusalem buses turn onto the highway leading to the center of town, Shuafat, Arabs have be throwing firebombs and rocks at Magavniks, members of the Border Patrol.

This affects me personally, as roadblocks are set up slowing traffic considerably. My sons, who want to go to J-lem to sleep over at a friends house there are having trouble getting into town, and my wife, who was working in J-lem today, may have trouble getting home.

#9
Deepti Lamba
URL
December 28, 2008
11:30 AM

Ruvy, no problem. Just keep your family and yourself safe.

#10
Deepti Lamba
December 28, 2008
11:38 AM

This is really worrisome. I hope you are in touch with your wife and kids. How far are they from home? I wish there was some way we could help but being thousands of miles away all we can do is pray for their safety.

#11
Ruvy
URL
December 28, 2008
12:09 PM

Thank you for the kind words, Deepti, and for the good wishes. I expect to see riots in Jerusalem and in the northern part of the country - this being the civil unrest in response to and in addition to the military campaign being carried out in the south. My wife is presently awaiting a bus in Jerusalem. If the bus for Ma'ale Levona leaves on time, it will leave in a quarter hour. If it doesn't, this means it is late due to civil unrest - or the usual possibilities of a flat tire and the like.

One son was awaiting the other. One has a phone - the other does not. I called the one with the phone just now. Apparently they have met up with each other and are on the way to their friend's house. My worries are that Arabs in the neighborhoods surrounding the neighborhood where they are staying may decide to become violent. It would be easy for me to understand this reaction, whatever my opinions of it may be.

#12
Sandeep
URL
December 28, 2008
01:01 PM

>>Let it stand that when Jews die, the world media is generally content to remain silent. When Jews kill in retaliation, the world media and the monkeys performing for it all jump up and down in outrage.
Absolutely Ruvy! That's how it works in a world where the principles of ethics and decency are turned on their head.

And please accept my prayers for the well being of your folks.

#13
kaffir
December 28, 2008
01:11 PM

The most ironic (sardonic?) part was that those bozos in Palestine can't even aim/fire rockets properly - some of those rockets landed in their own territory killing their own peeps instead of the "enemy".

#14
kaffir
December 28, 2008
02:59 PM

Not a peep from all the righteous politicians or the Arab-owned CNN, or even Faux News.

Agree. The double-standards are quite obvious. Five years ago, over this incident, I'd have felt that it's the Israelis who are to blame and Palestinians who are the victims, but not any more. The situation is not that simple, and neither is it so black-and-white as is presented by the liberal media.

#15
Ruvy
URL
December 28, 2008
04:19 PM

No good deed goes unpunished, it seems. According to Arutz Sheva, Hamas, hurting from the Israeli bombardment, turned to the Norwegians for mediation. the Norwegians, who have been pro-Arab in the recent decade or so, turned Hamas down flat.

While I might find Hamas somewhat vicious and hateful, Hamas, when compared to the PLO, were honest if not necessarily efficient. While the PLO blew the money given it on bribes and fancy houses (you see them going up all over Judea and Samaria in the Arab towns along Highway 60 between J-lem and Ma'ale Levona), Hamas concentrated on social welfare for Arabs - and killing Jews. For someone living in Gaza, that's preferable to some damnable thief impoverishing them.

But for being decent to Arabs, Hamas is paying a mortal price. Why? I alluded to this in the article, and now is the time to go into this in detail. Some of you may have noticed that I do not seem overly enthusiastic about this attack on the Strip.

The Oslo Accords were originally all about setting up a second, additional Arab state on the territory of the Mandate the High Contracting Powers had designated as a Jewish National Home in 1920. In 1922, the Brits cut out 77% of it east of the Jordan and excluded Jews from it. This would become the first Arab state to arise from the Mandate that was to be a Jewish sovereign state. The British, ever perfidious, handed over the Golan to the French Mandate of Syria-Lebanon. And the Jewish Agency, dominated by "practical" people, allowed the UN to illegally partition the remainder in 1947. They had figured that they would be able to conquer the entire territory in the war that was to ensue. The various Jewish irregular armies were able to defeat the Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese and Iraqis, but they were beaten by the British equipped, trained and commanded Arab Legion. That was not in the program. That war, the War of Independence, set up the borders as the Israeli secular establishment prefers to view them - that is to say borders that exclude Judea and Samaria.

The Israeli government, having reconquered land that was its by right in 1967, did not know what to do with it, and made some very serious mistakes. They did not allow Arabs, ensconced at three bridges along the Jordan to leave - thus creating the problem of wanting to "annex the territory but not the people"; they turned the Temple Mount over to the Waqf; finally, they decided, erroneously, to view Judea and Samaria as occupied territory (the first of many disservices that Meir Shamgar did to the people of and State of Israel). Thus they themselves allowed the situation of foreign intervention in our internal affairs to result.

No occupation can be humane, no matter what anyone tells you. And the Israeli occupation of Judea and Samaria was not humane at all. Yes, the Israelis built schools and saw to it that there were good health clinics. But the Arabs were always made to feel second rate. By 1988, a number of influential Israelis who were on the country's "left" wing in politics had decided to ditch the socialism of the country altogether and to try to get a negotiated settlement with the Palestine Liberation Organization. However, internal politics got in the way, and as a result the Arabs revolted in an intifada. By 1992, the "appropriate" regime under YitzHaq Rabin took office, and secret negotiations got seriously underway.

Originally the negotiations were about serious issues of sovereignty, rights and the like, but eventually Shim'on Peres brought his friends to the table and began to talk "business" with Arafat's henchmen. Palestine was to be made into a cash cow for the PLO and Israeli politicians to profit off of. IN return, Arafat was to silence Arab terror, and the Israelis would get rid of the onerous settlers, first by demonizing them in the press, and then by killing off their leaders. Many of the PLO "terror" attacks were really executions designed to get rid of Jewish leaders living in Judea and Samaria. The Jewish section of the Shaba"k would leak locations of Jews they wanted gotten rid of and the Arabs were given the job of killing them. That is how Benyamin Kahane was murdered off seven years ago.

The PLO grew fat ruling the lands it got from the Israelis, and it became terribly corrupt in how it did business. Arabs living in Judea and Samaria and Gaza found themselves impoverished by what amounted to a dictatorship foisted on them by Israel. Jews living in Judea and Samaria found their economic opportunities there more and more circumscribed. In the meantime, the Jewish section of the Shaba"k fomented "Jewish" violence against Arabs to make sure that Jewish residents of Judea and Samaria would remain demonized in the press in Israel and overseas.

And the former socialist politicians in Israel made off like bandits. Barak, Peres, and others grew rich while "right wing" politicians like Netanyahu and Sharon drooled jealously. When Sharon got power in 2001, he set Avi Weisglass to make back door deals with Arafat while publicly ostracizing him. Sharon wanted to get rich too. Weisglass was both Sharon's and Arafat's attorney.

Now, at long last, we come back to Hamas. Originally, Hamas was nurtured by Israel's Shaba"k as a rival to the PLO to weaken it. But it drew members on its own, concentrating on charitable works and religion (the Wahhabi variety of hatred). The more corrupt and dictatorial the PLO grew, the more the popularity of Hamas grew - since it was the only real alternative to the PLO available to Arabs.

In 2006 after Arafat had died, and after Mahmoud Abbas proved to be a weak leader, Hamas won significant numbers of seats in the Palestine National Council, the legislature of the "Palestinian" Authority. They won effective control of Gaza.

This was a major problem for Sharon and his immediate successor, Olmert. The Palestine cash cow of the PLO was replaced by an honest, if dogmatic, enemy who meant it when they said they wanted all Jews dead.

They had no patience for a strategy of stages in destroying Israel by making the Israelis sell them the rope the Arabs would hang them with. They wanted the whole country, and they wanted to make Arabs in Israel good Moslems as well as owners of the country.

The Israeli regime wanted Hamas gone. The Americans wanted Hamas gone. The Egyptians double-crossed Hamas by misleading them into thinking that Israel would never attack; and now that Israel has attacked with the serious intent of destroying Hamas, the Norwegians, who had helped the PLO attain to power in 1992-3 by providing a "secret" place to negotiate a deal, also turned Hamas down.

So here we are. Israel is setting up artillery near the Gaza border. Tanks are moving towards the Gaza Border. It appears that ground troops - Jewish kids - will be sent to do what? To make sure that Israel's politicians can revive the Palestine cash cow and get rich together with their corrupt buddies, the PLO.

I should enthuse over this? An Arab in Israel should be happy over this? Gimme a break!

#16
Ruvy
URL
December 28, 2008
04:53 PM

Sandeep, thank you for you kind wishes.

Kaffir, please pay attention to comment #15. The important issues in this attack are laid out for you to see. It is not a matter of "finally retaliating to rocket attacks", though it is being made to look that way. The rich pigs in Tel Aviv don't give a damn about the towns on the periphery. They never did, and they never will. If they could get rid of Jerusalem, they would. All these places remind them of a country that is not like Europe, that is poor, and worse than being poor, that believes in G-d. The secular pigs in Tel Aviv want nothing more than to be Hebrew speaking pagans. They like being "Israeli", so long as that means they don't have to support poor Jews. You are seeing our ugly kulturkampf laid bare in front of you. If it looks a tad familiar, it should. In addition, I strongly suggest you pay careful attention to the comments from the Samson Blinded Blog in comment #3. There reality is laid bare, but not to the extent that it is laid bare in comment #15. Finally, I commend you to my four part series in Blogcritics Magazine "In the Shadow of the Six Day War". Much more of the history is detailed there.

#17
commonsense
December 28, 2008
05:43 PM

Kaffir:

""The situation is not that simple, and neither is it so black-and-white as is presented by the liberal media.""

I agree!! Even the impoverished liberal media, as opposed the well-healed conservative shits such as Faux News, have access to colour (or color) broadcasting. I cannot imagine why you think the so-called liberal media channels offer black+white broadcasts.

#18
commonsense
December 28, 2008
05:47 PM

Kaffir:

""The most ironic (sardonic?) part was that those bozos in Palestine can't even aim/fire rockets properly - some of those rockets landed in their own territory killing their own peeps instead of the "enemy"."

What is more ironic is that you perhaps don't even realize that you are unintentionally claiming that Hamas bears no blame whatsoever, since as you point out, their rocket are literally backfiring on themselves, plus the attack from Israel that is supposedly in response to rocket-attacks, that according to you are hitting the rocket-throwers. A veritable tangle of ironies/sardonies (if there's a word like that) for sure!

#19
kaffir
December 28, 2008
05:50 PM

I cannot imagine why you think the so-called liberal media channels offer black+white broadcasts.

Maybe because you weren't thinking of newspapers, which for the most part, still use b&w ink? ;)
You need to expand your imagination - try smoking some weed. If you live in Europe, a trip to Amsterdam would be worthwhile for you, and not just for an indulgence of your "dirty secret". :D :D

Seriously, I'm finding some of your recent rejoinders to my comments quite amusing and laughable. Don't be peeved, OK?

#20
commonsense
December 28, 2008
05:55 PM

Ruvy:

""The rich pigs in Tel Aviv don't give a damn about the towns on the periphery...The secular pigs in Tel Aviv want nothing more than to be Hebrew speaking pagans."

Rich pigs? Secular pigs? Most pigs, as far as I can tell, just like most animals -unlike vicious bloodthirsty, ideologically driven humans - have no lust for money nor for religion or secularism. Am I at sea again?? Show me a secular pig and I will eat my non-secular sausage.

#21
kaffir
December 28, 2008
06:01 PM

What is more ironic is that you perhaps don't even realize that you are unintentionally claiming that Hamas bears no blame whatsoever, since as you point out, their rocket are literally backfiring on themselves..

Ummm...I didn't claim that all of their rockets landed on their own peeps. Even though I used the word "some" in my original comment, you had to ignore it to make your point. Are you trying to needle me CS, or are your testosterones raging? *laughing*
Find another outlet, as I'm not taking your bait.

#22
commonsense
December 28, 2008
06:19 PM

Kaffir,

Some shades of grey for you, unlike the black/white of the "liberal" media:

Ruvy: #4 (despite his apology later)

"I keep forgetting that this site does have an agenda and it is generally anti-Israel, if not anti-Jewish. Let it stand that when Jews die, the world media is generally content to remain silent. When Jews kill in retaliation, the world media and the monkeys performing for it all jump up and down in outrage."

#23
commonsense
December 28, 2008
06:25 PM

Kaffir:

""Are you trying to needle me CS, or are your testosterones raging? *laughing*
Find another outlet, as I'm not taking your bait."

1. Kaffir, a bit of top-secret advice: the trick about not taking a bait, is not to take it at all. So, your "I'm not taking your bait" indicates just that opposite of what you intend to prove. Now, you might say, well, I said that I'm not taking ALL of your bait and that I'm being dishonest etc. In addition to sounding obscene ("taking your bait"), it is not convincing. A bait taken is a bait taken, in parts or in full, even though I was just fooling around as usual, not putting out baits.

2. As for testosterones, what's that?? At my age, I feel flattered that you can detect any! (Read my advice on the mechanics of castrating cats on another thread)

3. I know the world appears to be going to hell on a handbasket, but you know what? It was never any different in the past. At the unintentional risk of making light of seriously bloody and depressing events, a bit of levity never hurt (no I don't mean allegedly levitating monks)

#24
commonsense
December 28, 2008
06:28 PM

Kaffir,

re: smoking weed! I went to school in Delhi U, and trust me in the early eighties, the campus was over-run with fairly good quality weed, just for the picking. but i was a "decent" boy from a "decent" family, so i stuck to "tea"

#25
commonsense
December 28, 2008
07:31 PM

Kaffir:

"Maybe because you weren't thinking of newspapers, which for the most part, still use b&w ink? ;)"

You are, epectedly misinformed. All newspapers now use color pics.

Kaffir:

"Seriously, I'm finding some of your recent rejoinders to my comments quite amusing and laughable. Don't be peeved, OK?"

Seriously amusing? Oxymoron if I ever saw one. Lighten up! Me peeved? Peeve proof; everybody on DC knows that!

#26
commonsense
December 28, 2008
08:16 PM

Kaffir man,

I'm dominating the DC airwaves too much! Sorry man! Over to you!!

#27
Ruvy
URL
December 29, 2008
06:10 AM

It's time to leave the comedy routines of "commonsense", enjoyable as they are, and get to some serious news, ands some serious news analysis.

Modi'ín Illít, a city a few kilometers north of Modi'ín, which is halfway between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, was struck by two Arabs who arrived as repairmen called to fix a heater - and who decided instead to go on a stabbing spree. According to Arutz Sheva, four people were stabbed, and one of the repairmen/terrorists got away, while one was killed by one of the residents of Modi'ín Illít.

Very few people have died as a result of the Katyusha bombardment of the country from Gaza - this in spite of the terrorists' (one should really say rebels') use of Google Earth and other tools to aim these weapons. Temporal, in a comment elsewhere that he turned into a rather puerile and preachy article, attempted to portray the terrorists as "Davids" fighting the Jewish "Goliath". Amongst the weapons he listed with the terrorists/rebels are "homemade rockets and other explosives." The Katyushas are not home-made, they are Russian imports, as are the Grad-Katyusha rockets that have longer range.

But the chief weapon of the terrorist/rebels is not ordnance of any kind. It is hatred and the willingness to cut short innocent lives and dance in the street with joy, proclaiming it victory over the Jew - el-yahud klabna! "the Jew is our dog!".

It is from seeing this on TV that Israeli kids learn to say mávet l'aravím - death to the Arabs - and mean it. Such things are not taught in schools here, even if the teachers desired to - the leftist shits in the Education Ministry would have such teachers fired.

It is the bloodthirstiness of the terrorist/rebels, who feed on a fake Moslem Wahhabi (gotten via the Moslem Brotherhood) ideology of murdering the non-Moslem, that teaches our children hatred. It teaches us hatred, too, and I resent it.

The Arabs who went on a stabbing spree, the Arabs who attack cars and buses with rocks and firebombs, or who suddenly get into the bulldozer they use at their Jerusalem municipality jobs to kill innocent people, are far more effective at killing than the steady rain of home-made Qassam rockets or even the more expensive and longer range Katyusha imports - which, in the end, are just badly aimed spears, even with the help of Google Earth.

A friend of mine who lives in Qiryat 'Arba, noted how many bombs the Israel Air Corps used in attacking Gaza, and how few terrorist/rebels died as a result. The Israel Air Corps has used up hundreds of bombs - and the deaths of terrorist/rebels has only been about 300. That is a pathetic yield and a waste of good ordnance. The bombs are more expensive than the home-made Qassams, and wasting them this way is bad politico-military strategy. Attempts to buy new ones from the United states will come at with a heavy political price, and the idiots in Jerusalem have neither the brains nor the balls to employ Israelis in Israel to make these bombs and to modify the planes dropping them as required.

The goal here should not be to kill people but to convince the terrorist/rebel - with the least amount of force possible - that killing innocent Jews is not a good idea. There is no good reason that women and children in Gaza - or anywhere else in the Land of Israel - should die as "collateral damage".

There is a method that the Russians employed with some success in Lebanon a quarter century ago to rein in Arab terrorism at least against them.

Russian operatives in Lebanon had been kidnapped and were being held. The Russians, probably employing Spetsnaz agents, kidnapped the son of the sheikh ruling the village, castrated him and returned him to the village, with the message that if the Russians were not returned within 24 hours, lots more Arab men would suffer the same way. Needless to say, the Russians were returned within the allotted time frame.

Nobody died in this incident. There were no crying mothers, no angry fathers demanding revenge, no martyrs created who could screw 72 virgins. Indeed, the son of the sheikh had to live with the embarrassment of everyone knowing that he was a "castrato", and not by his own will, either.

Savage? Yes. Vicious? Most assuredly so! But it worked!

Compare this to bombing and killing hundreds of people. If hating the Jew and trying to kill him is going to cost a young Arab man his balls, he will be unlikely to make the attempt. Living with the result will be too painful. He would be wiser to turn his attention to the pursuit of more peaceful enterprises, ones that would allow him to eventually enjoy the pretty Arab young women around him.

It is not my job to design such operations for the IDF. When they pay me, I'll be glad to work for them. But in the meantime, what we will see is what I detailed in comment 15 supra - the use of good Jewish boys to create an environment where Israeli politicians can rob and plunder the whole country with their buddies in the PLO.

#28
suresh.naig
December 29, 2008
06:58 AM

Ruvy; India has done its routine, condemning Israel for the attack on Hamas. In most part of the world, "Who" is more important than "What".

Inida never raised a finger, when Taliban destroyed huge sand stone Buddha statues in Afghanistan. Like wise India would never condemn the actions of Hamas.

On the other hand elected Governments have responsibility, whereas a terrorist organisation doesn't have to bother about niceties.

My prayers for the safety of your folks, Ruvy.

#29
Ruvy
URL
December 29, 2008
08:21 AM

THE FIXER

Tzvi ben Gedalyahu writes at Arutz Sheva, Tanks Deployed at Gaza Barrier; Barak: War to the Death.

In this article, Barak gets plenty of exposure as the tough grim-faced leader, the man who is serious at defeating his enemies. Since he is the Security Minister, and the IDF is sitting at the lip of another military campaign, it is hard to describe him otherwise.

This is how Ehud Barak likes to see himself portrayed; the man who is decisive, the man who is determined. He is a very typical Israeli, a back-slapper, who likes to see himself as the man with the solution - hamisadér is the Hebrew term - the fixer.

Before our young boys go into battle, before they die, before the wailing of mothers, fathers and wives having lost young heroes makes it too hard to criticize, lets take a closer look at this "fixer". Like many Israeli politicians, he was a career officer with the IDF, and because he was affiliated with Labor, and not a religiously observant Jew, he was able to advance to the top ranks in the IDF (Efraim Eitam, who is a religiously observant Jew, hit the ceiling of discrimination in the IDF, and quit as a result).

On the way up, Barak was in command of soldiers fighting in Lebanon a quarter century ago. One group of soldiers he commanded was a unit of religiously observant Jews. He had them advance into the pass near Sultan Yukub, where Arab forces were waiting to ambush them, and where 23 of our kids died as a result. It is widely believed that he knew of the presence of the Arab soldiers and was willing to see religious Jews die - that way they could not father kids who would vote against someone like Barak - or vote against Barak themselves.

Later, he was responsible for presenting recommendations on the purchase of three German submarines, submarines that could possibly carry nuclear weapons. He recommended against the purchase of these submarines. Wiser heads prevailed at the Security Ministry, and they are now in our hands.

When he became prime minister, the hand picked choice of Bill Clinton, he tried to negotiate a fast-track "peace" deal with the Syrians - and failed. But he managed to withdraw Israeli troops from Lebanon, a withdrawal that looked like a rout, and which made HizbAllah look like a far more serious force than it was at the time. And of course we know that all the Jews and Arabs who died in the eight years subsequent in Arab terror attacks from HizbAllah, or in fighting in Lebanon are therefore on Barak's head.

When Yassir Arafat began an intifada in September 2000, Barak was unwilling to crush it, as he should have. Arab leaders got to calling him a "lemon" - give a squeeze, and get more juice. So the so-called "hard-liner", Ariel Sharon replaced him, and immediately attempted to recruit him as External Affairs Minister. Barak turned Sharon down, so Sharon recruited instead, Shim'on Peres. And while Sharon looked like a bully and had the (deserved) reputation as a butcher among the Arabs, Sharon was like Barak; he wanted to make money with the PLO and cut back-room deals while publicly excoriating Arafat.

But getting back to "The Fixer", Barak, he made his way slowly back to the top in Labor, and when he finally became Security Minister, one of Barak's priorities was to use the IDF to bully Jews. We saw an example of this only two months ago, when the High Court of "Justice" (another oxymoron) decided to seriously question the purchase of Bet haShalóm along the Worshipers Way between Qiryat 'Arba and Hebron and allow for the expulsion of the Jewish residents (who had paid serious money and obtained mortgages based on a video taped sale; The Arab who made the sale, reneged because in the "Palestinian" Authority, sake of land to a Jew is a capital crime).

Barak, looking for a way to demonize Jews living in Judea, insisted that he was going to expel the residents, and did so. One considers how close to civil war he brought the country with his massive ego.

And now, running for office, he seeks to wipe away the stink of his actions in Hebron. So good Jewish soldiers will die, and likely, many innocent Arabs as well as terrorist/rebels will die.

So much for The Fixer.

#30
Ruvy
URL
December 29, 2008
08:44 AM

Suresh,

Thank you for your kind wishes. I'll not comment on India's actions - I'm disgusted enough by those of the Israeli government.

elected Governments have responsibility, whereas a terrorist organisation doesn't have to bother about niceties.

Let me remind you that Hamas is now an elected government. Whether I or anyone else recognizes its right to govern is irrelevant. It is the de-facto government in Gaza and environs. And Gaza is a de-facto independent Arab state, whatever my opinions of it may be. So its actions against Israeli towns and villages on the border constitute acts of war. Since Hamas, acting as the elected government in what is a de-facto independent country, has gone to war with Israel with intent to destroy Israel, there is nothing to hold Israel back from crushing a belligerent neighbor and destroying its ability to fight.

That is international law - the law of the jungle.

#31
Ruvy
URL
December 29, 2008
04:41 PM

I received this as an e-mail. It is from Rachel Saperstein, the wife of Moshe Saperstein, a retired humor columnist for the Jerusalem Post. Moshe and Rachel were expelled from Gush Qatif three years ago.

GAZA WAR REACHES US by Rachel Saperstein, Neve Dekalim/Nitzan

We have forty-five seconds from the time the missile leaves Gaza and reaches us. The tracking system lets each area know that a rocket is due to land in their vicinity. Then the siren wails. It may not land on your doorstep or penetrate your roof but it is somewhere around.

I know all of this because we got notices from the Home Front Command, the Regional Council and our own Neve Dekalim Council. The first two were slipped under our door; the latter, via email.

Today we even were visited by the army, which has taken over the Community Center. Reserve soldiers, both English speakers, knocked on our door, introduced themselves and asked me how I was feeling and could they come in for a chat about security. My first reaction was to say "You pulled us out of our home instead of cleaning up the mess we lived under for five years." My second reaction was my general politeness when people come to my door. I invited them in.

I assured them that I don't feel very secure in this cardboard house.

The two young men felt uncomfortable especially when they informed me that the Home Front Command was planning on bringing in large sewer pipes. Yes, you read that correctly, sewer pipes, made of thick concrete, for our protection. The pipes would be distributed to each cul-de-sac. When the sirens wail we would run outside, crawl into our very own sewer pipe and wait five minutes or at least til we hear the explosion. Then we crawl out and return to our cardboard homes.

I stared open-mouthed in disbelief. From our homes in Gush Katif to cardboard caravillas in a refugee camp to a sewer pipe. We have certainly hit rock bottom. I laugh as I write this. I have tears in my eyes as I write this. I was assured that the pipes would withstand an explosion close by but not a direct hit. Our bit of security.

The south of Israel has become a war zone. We went to Ashkelon yesterday. The health clinic I visited was practically empty. The mall in which it is located was mostly closed. Even the pharmacy, open when we arrived, was closed when we left at 4:30pm. Except for a shop selling mobile phones all was dark and deserted. A large city lives under the shadow of massive rocket attacks. Children can no longer go to school. Social and cultural events are cancelled.

Our local grocery and greengrocer are still well stocked. Mail is delivered. Electricity is still on. For how long?

This afternoon the sirens wailed. We heard three explosions in the distance. Friends are calling offering us a place of refuge. An emergency committee is being formed. I volunteer for it.

A reporter for a Danish newspaper called. Would I meet with him and give him my take on the war. I agree, and he is thrilled to be entering a war zone. Journalists are not allowed into Gaza, but those who lost interest in us after our expulsion are interested once again now that the war has reached us. I keep thinking of a motto from our days in Gush Katif: "Those who flee from Gaza will find Gaza coming to them."
###########################################

Living in a war zone is taking its toll on our people. The nightmare is returning.

#32
smallsquirrel
December 29, 2008
05:03 PM

well Ruvy, sorry but I do not have a lot of sympathy for settlers. I mean, I do not think anyone should have to live in the conditions that the author describes... but you do not seem to have sympathy when arabs face the same horrid conditions.

all I can say is that may G-d save the children on both sides, all victims of their parents' horrible deeds.

#33
Ruvy
URL
December 29, 2008
05:31 PM

sorry but I do not have a lot of sympathy for settlers.

Perhaps you should make up your mind as to what you actually do mean, smallsquirrel. Rachel Saperstein was kicked out of the home she and her husband bought. They, after much heartache, live in what amounts to a cardboard box. I do not know if the bank is still trying to collect on the mortgage for the destroyed house. Bankers have driven a number of people into the grave trying to collect mortgages for homes the IDF destroyed.

Now, let's be clear here. A government of the left wing persuasion, Labor, persuaded people to settle in Gush Qatif as a security measure for the State - and then abandoned them. The government ran away from the enemy like cowardly rats; the residents of Gush Qatif had more guts than they did, living night after night with bombardment from Arab positions for five years.

That abandonment was a sin, and the man who led it rots like a vegetable, denied of death, with no possibility of life - punished measure for measure. Yet no Israeli politician is able to say to the internal refugees of Gush Qatif, Hatíti lifnékhem - I sinned before you. No Israeli politician is able to admit that their policy of securing Israel's security by running away from the enemy like cowards in 2005 failed. The punishment they will bear will be far worse than that of Ariel Sharon, as they can see with their own eyes what happened to him; still they insist on walking a road of evil arrogance.

Who or what you feel sorry for is rather irrelevant. You are a foreigner by choice, destined in all likelihood to remain a foreigner, and destined to be judged that way in the Final Judgment.

Perhaps you should remember that I too, am a settler. I don't care for or need your sympathy - but if I seem a bit harsh, you should remember who you talk to before you generalize ignorantly.

I feel sorry for the poor innocents who weren't terrorist/rebels who have died under Israeli bombardment. But I really feel sorry for the poor soldiers who will be sent into Gaza, using ridiculous rules of engagement so as to avoid offending self-righteous people like you. Many mothers, fathers and wives will weep bitter tears of loss because a cowardly government in Jerusalem is afraid of offending self-righteous Americans like you.

#34
smallsquirrel
December 29, 2008
05:43 PM

No Ruvy, I know what I mean. I am very clear about what I mean. I think settlement is wrong and in direct opposition to any kind of peace in the middle east. I do remember that you are a settler. And I do not know what it is like to be an Israeli, this is also true. But I think settlement is equal to provocation. That has been my stance, and remains my stance, even with my own relatives. So if I do not feel badly for them, why shall I feel badly for you? Yes they were kicked out of a home they bought, OK. IT WAS ON LAND THEY NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON IN THE FIRST PLACE.

You know what gets my goat? Jews have been kicked around, persecuted, annihilated, tortured, blamed, scrutinized, punished, maligned, and the list goes on. But some of us seemed to forget all too quickly what that felt like, and in the rush to never fall victim again did what most abuse victims sadly seem to do and made someone else the victim instead. How is that acceptable? We forgot what it was like to be homeless so we took someone else's home? We forgot what it was like to be hungry so we took someone else's food? We forgot what it was like to lose our mothers fathers and children and instead started taking others' families.

Oh yes, I believe that Israel has a right to exist. And defend itself. But really, how is settlement getting you anywhere except more at odds with peace? you can call me self-righteous if you want to, I don't give a shit. innocent people on both sides are being murdered and all you seem to care about is calling names.

#35
Ruvy
URL
December 29, 2008
06:23 PM

Innuendo and blathering edited

#36
Ruvy
URL
December 29, 2008
07:03 PM

I need to update the news on the fighting going on. It's time to desist from arguing and going back to reporting and analysis.

From Ynetnews. Cleared for publication: The woman who was killed earlier Monday in the rocket attack on Ashdod is Irit Sheetrit, 39. (Shmulik Hadad)

According to Arutz Sheva, the late Mrs. Sheetrit, z"l, had just finished an exercise session with her sister and was driving home when the sirens went off in Ashdod. She got out of her car and the Grad rocket killed her. Her husband was already in mourning: his own mother had died a month previous.

From Ynetnews Cleared for publication: The man killed in a Palestinian attack earlier this evening is an IDF career officer. He was killed after a rocket hit a military base near Gaza. (Hanan Greenberg)


A blogger covers how the world reacts - from Atlas Shrugged

From the blog post: Woe is me ... pity those poor dead annihilationists!

Hamas Charter (1988) The Charter of Allah: The Platform of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)


"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others"

In all the screaming, it is easy to lose the essential point here. Kids are going to be sent to die to kill off one pack of Arab terrorists - so that the government sending those kids off to die can cut deals and steal money working with the other pack.

The essential difference between Hamas and the PLO is this. Hamas wants to kill and then loot. The PLO wants to loot and then kill. So the PLO is happy to cut "deals" with greedy Israeli politicians who are selling the PLO the rope it intends to use to hang the Israeli politicians - and all the other Jews they succeed in massacring.

Well maybe the PLO, if it gets the opportunity, will only hang the Israeli politicians - and try to massacre the rest of us with guns or knives.

Bottom line: it is easy to lose hold of the essential facts with all the bullshit flying around.

#37
Ruvy
URL
December 29, 2008
08:33 PM

Ravi, this is the comment I told you to watch for.

Most of what Michael Ledeen says is standard in the box stuff, but this stands out:

There is a disgusting conceit that underlies the "realist" position that negotiations will solve these problems: the conceit that tyrants will be easier to deal with than free peoples. Rabin and Peres actually said this, once upon a time, with their smug statements to the effect that Arafat and the others would control the terrorists because they didn't give a damn about the Geneva Conventions or other legal niceties. They, and those who think the same applies to the Iranians, forget that our enemies want us dead or dominated, they don't want a world at peace in which they will have to deal with real problems of governance. They are waging jihad, not diplomacy.

The bottom line here is that the Arabs in Gaza (nor in Judea and Samaria) are not free - Hamas is the rebound party from the Arafat dictatorship and tyranny, and it is just as much a tyranny in its own way. IN Judea and Samaria the remnants of the PLO dictatorship of Arafat wield the whip with the backing (sorta) of the IDF.

Israel created a tyranny over the "Palestinians" far worse than any "occupation" could be. This is one of the reasons there will be no peace so long as these tyrants have power. The other is that they drink deep from the Wahhabi well of hatred fro the non-Moslem.

#38
Ruvy
URL
December 29, 2008
08:49 PM

Israel doesn't execute terrorists she captures. I think she should, but no matter she doesn't. Hamas on the other hand, does. Frankly, I think they have the right idea. Also from the story.

Gaza Man Appeals: I'm a Collaborator, Let me Come Back
A 35-year-old Gaza resident has filed an appeal to the High Court asking to be allowed into central Israel. The man claims he gave Israel security-related information, and says terrorist groups are out to kill him.

The man said he is married to an Israeli citizen and has two children who also hold Israeli citizenship. He was caught in central Israel without an entrance permit several months ago and enlisted by the Shin Bet (Israel security services), he told the court.

The man returned to Gaza several months ago. Recently, he says, he discovered that Hamas was trying to kill him and claimed to have evidence proving he helped Israel. Israeli officials scheduled a hearing into his case for late January, but the man argues he could be dead by then, and is asking the High Court to allow him to return to central Israel immediately.


We'll see if the members of the High Court of Injustice at least have the decency to let the man return to Israel. I'd be surprised if they did.

#39
Ruvy
URL
December 30, 2008
11:12 AM

At 18:07 local time, (11:07 EST) we heard low-flying planes lumbering low above us, flying towards the north, presumably Lebanon. I do not know what that means, but I'll be looking out to see if news comes of bombing raids on Lebanon by the IDF Air Corps.

#40
Somik Raha
URL
December 30, 2008
01:21 PM

While the conflict is in our face, there will be a lot of short-term solutions propped up. In the midst of all this, here is a little thought.

On Wikipedia, the Arab population in Palestine in 1946 was around 1,339,763. The total defense budget of 2008 was around $13.71 billion (51.3 billion NIS, according to this site).

Dividing this amount by the number of Palestinians, we find that Israel spends $38,290 per Palestinian. Given the past, if we assume Israel has been (or will be) spending this amount for at least 10 years, then that is $380,290 per Palestinian, enough to buy a decent home in Texas.

What if Israel (or India for that matter) tells the Palestinians (or Kashmiris for that matter), here is $380,290 - we'd rather give this to you directly - please do something constructive for yourself and your people, build a home here or anywhere else in the world, and live peacefully. Would the Palestinians (or Kashmiris) take it? Would that solve the economic deprivation that is pushing people toward hatred and violence?

#41
Guido
December 30, 2008
01:24 PM

Ruvy, #39

The low flying lumbering planes are probably C-130s, or a variation, i.e. EC-130E or J versions. Their missions range from troop and cargo transport, to ECM, C2, PSYOPS, or special ops. The only other possibility is the AC-130 gunship, which I don't think Israel has. It is extremely unlikely that the aircraft you heard was going to bomb anything. The only bomb a C-130 can be configured to drop is the 15,000 pound "daisy cutter". To the best of my knowledge, this type of ordinance hasn't been used since Vietnam. And then only to create landing zones in thick foliage for helicopters.

#42
Ruvy
URL
December 30, 2008
02:31 PM

Somik,

What if Israel (or India for that matter) tells the Palestinians (or Kashmiris for that matter), here is $380,290 - we'd rather give this to you directly - please do something constructive for yourself and your people, build a home here or anywhere else in the world, and live peacefully. Would the Palestinians (or Kashmiris) take it? Would that solve the economic deprivation that is pushing people toward hatred and violence?

That was the solution to the issue suggested by Rav Meir Kahane, z"l, hy"d. He is the Jewish scholar who is accused of genocide. Some genocide, huh?

As to whether these Arabs would take the money, that's a no-brainer (I can't talk about Kashmiris). But of course, the terrorists and all their enablers would be jumping up and down screaming genocide, violation of this or that convention - mainly because giving these Arabs a decent life would tip over the rice bowl of dozens of NGO's that right now can cash in on their situation and beat their breasts self-righteously.

It's like trying to put some damned poverty pimp out of business. And then the thugs (Hamas and the PLO are just a pack of thugs with slightly uglier mugs than the thugs who run Israel) would be put out of business. Do you know a gangster who likes to be put out of business? I don't.

#43
Ruvy
URL
December 30, 2008
02:36 PM

Guido,

Thanks for the info. I won't assume that our military has the balls to hit HizbAllah first then.

#44
kerty
December 30, 2008
05:52 PM

ss

"I believe that Israel has a right to exist. And defend itself. But really, how is settlement getting you anywhere except more at odds with peace?"

Jewish Settlements is only a side issue. The main bone of contention remains the settlement of Israel itself, which Islamic world has been unwilling to accept or tolerate even after 60 years. That theater has become an epicenter of Jehadi movements against everything non-islamic. For Israel to survive amidst a sea of jehadis, Israel has to adopt proactive acts of self-defence and defiance - and Jewish settlements have strategic merit within such context - weather one agrees with it or not. Lots of things do not make sense from humanitarian point of view, but war and defense are seldom humanitarian projects. For decades, Jehadis have clothed their Jehad as humanitarian and PR battles to divide the moral and political support Israel receives from rest of the world. They are determined to undo Israel. And that is what it is all about, rest is all side show.

Sarah Islam, in one of her posts here, points out that hating zionism does not amount to hatred of Jews. It is such rationalization that create legitimacy for hatred of Israel and call for destruction of zionism embodied by Israel. Jehadis view creation of Israel as zionism having its own nation/state. On the other hand, these so-called moderates fail to make distinction between jehadi and moslem, Jehadism and Islam - they view any attack on jehadi bases as attack on Islamic world. Any attack on Hamas bases as attack on Palestinians and moslems at large. You can see the entire pro-jehadi PR machine deployed to create such propaganda - they want to blur distinctions between jehadis and moslems. For them, not just the jewish settlements are illegal occupation of Palestinian land, the entire Israel is an illegal occupying power. Being for one kind of occupation and not the other don't make any difference.

#45
commonsense
December 30, 2008
11:00 PM

Kerty:
"You can see the entire pro-jehadi PR machine deployed to create such propaganda - they want to blur distinctions between jehadis and moslems."

Just as self-described fundamentalists and supporters of "Hindutva" such as Kerty work overtime to claim that all Muslims are Jihadis. Nice try Kerty, but most human beings have more commonsense than you give them credit.

#46
Ruvy
URL
December 31, 2008
01:47 PM

A good potion of today was spent by the Israeli government debating a French proposal for a two day truce.

It was rainy and cloudy in much of Israel, and probably was not the best weather for bombing raids. Arab terrorists attacked Israelis in Denmark, wounding two, and attacks by Arabs on Jews world-wide are to be expected.

But the most interesting event, in my own eyes was the censoring of IDF videos on Youtube. According to Arutz Sheva, the video showed Arab terrorists loading rockets to fire at Israel right before they themselves are killed. Many Arabs "reported" this video. It is available for viewing at the link above.

Looks like its time for me to get on Facebook and start rallying friends to report Arab and Jew-hating videos on Youtube. Two can play at this game.

#47
Ruvy
URL
December 31, 2008
03:36 PM
#48
Ruvy
URL
December 31, 2008
05:06 PM

Of course, according to YitzHaq Rabin There would be no Katyushas from Gaza. The lying bastards sang hevénu shalóm 'alékhem - we bring peace upon you - and all they brought was terror and death....

So what are you going to believe? The words of a "great man" like YitzHaq Rabin - or reality?

#49
commonsense
December 31, 2008
06:49 PM

Ruvy:

"So what are you going to believe? The words of a "great man" like YitzHaq Rabin - or reality?"

Neither! I'd rather believe Prophets Ruvy and Kerty.

#50
commonsense
December 31, 2008
06:54 PM

Ruvy:

""That was the solution to the issue suggested by Rav Meir Kahane, z"l, hy"d. He is the Jewish scholar who is accused of genocide."'

Depends on what one means by scholarship!

As for Kahane, almost all Israelis are allergic to him and his followers. Which does not necessarily make them right, but something to think about!

#51
commonsense
December 31, 2008
07:59 PM

Ruvy:

""That was the solution to the issue suggested by Rav Meir Kahane, z"l, hy"d."

Just thought you might want to find out the proper spelling for "Jekyll and Hyde". Hyde seems good enough, but J not Z for Jekyll. I agree with the characterization though, if not the spelling.

#52
Ruvy
URL
January 1, 2009
04:19 AM

As for Kahane, blah blah blah blah....

You remind me of a fellow over at Blogcritics, CS. Whenever someone mentions G-d, the poor bloke blows his wad. Whenever I mention Rav Kahane z"l, hy"d, you blow yours. The difference is that if you go too far over the line, your nastiness will get edited. At Blogcritics, the Comment Editor's comments won't.

#53
Ruvy
URL
January 1, 2009
05:30 AM

My favorite news source is not Arutz Sheva, though I do quote it a lot. It is the blog-site Samson Blinded. From there we see that Israel allows 6,000 tons of food, medicines into Gaza">. The writer did the math. Continuing from the piece, "Those Palestinians are real gluttons. At 15 to 40 pounds of food per Arab in four days, they are probably the best-faring occupied and attacked population in history."

Belch!

My only problem with his writing is that he uses the term "Palestinian" to describe Arabs living in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. I will not concede Arab propagandists and liars any verbal victories. The Arabs in the Strip however, are living in the best fed open-air prison on the planet.

This item came in yesterday (last year's news, eh?) from the same site, and gives a similar analysis to this campaign as mine, though not as detailed. Hamas Calls Israeli bluff reads the header.

From the article:

Israel heads into a PR disaster. A brilliant punishing raid turned into a half-hearted war. The invasion of Gaza would be long, indecisive, and result in significant Jewish casualties. The absence thereof would leave Hamas victorious as Zionist aggressor proved afraid to face it in combat.

The Gaza operation recalls Olmert's vision of the Second Lebanon War. As he testified before Winograd Commission, the war was expected to last a couple of days only. He and Barak played the same scenario in Gaza: an aerial strike, good for punishing, useless as a long-term solution.
We'll see if Israeli soldiers attempt to enter Gaza on Friday, as reported in Arutz Sheva yesterday at 20:30.

#54
Ruvy
URL
January 1, 2009
09:03 AM

Olmert wants 1701 for Gaza, reports Samson Blinded Blog

From the article:

Israeli government actively explores ceasefire options. The PM wants international monitors in Gaza even though they proved completely useless in Lebanon. Israeli drifts to Gen.Jones scenario of NATO/UN forces in the Palestinian-populated areas. International monitors, sort of the people who fled Rafah Crossing after Hamas takeover, cannot prevent arms smuggling but would develop rapport with Hamas on whom they depend for daily activities.

Just like in Lebanon, Israel demands of Hamas ceasing arms smuggling - which sounds good with Israeli voters but is impossible to implement.
So, now we'll see if my original observation in my article of 27 December is true or not:
According to Israeli officials this is "just the beginning" but past experience with such statements from the IDF of late have proven to be more bluster than reality although no Israeli news source will come out and say this openly.


Oh, by the way, I may be gone for a bit from the computer, so don't be surprised if you don't see updates on this.

#55
Ruvy
URL
January 1, 2009
09:45 AM

Let's talk about humanitarianism here, folks. Many Gazans injured in the Israeli bombing of Gaza have been treated in Israel - which has the closest and best staffed hospitals capable of doing so. A number of patients at Shifra Hospital in Gaza who needed treatment in Israel were refused entry, and doctors assumed that Israel was behind the refusal.

But the "Palestine Authority" which is unalterably opposed to Hamas, and which wants to see it destroyed, has suddenly developed a principled stand that "some patients were not allowed transfer to Israel was a decision of the P.A. that all wounded people must be treated in Egypt. This included patients like the five in question, who required specialist attention available only in Cairo, eight hours from Gaza, and were not in a position to make the trip.

Although Hamas is in power in Gaza, it's the Ramallah-based P.A. that deals with all requests by Palestinians for access to Israel for medical treatment. The P.A. is responsible for paying transportation costs and footing the bill for medical treatment." This, according to The Forward.com.

So, in other short, where it can, the PA will use the lives of Gaza residents (who oppose the corrupt PA) as propaganda tools to try and paint Israel as brutal and vicious. Mind you, food, medicine and even money enters Gaza from Israel. But, in the eyes of the Jew-hating international press, we are the brutal ones - and the terrorists are the heroes.

Apparently, in war, the first casualty is truth - the second casualty are the sick who are convenient propaganda tools.

#56
commonsense
January 1, 2009
03:46 PM

Ruvy:

""Apparently, in war, the first casualty is truth""

Apparently so, as graphically illustrated by you below:

Ruvy:
""The Grant in the Torah of the Land of Israel to the Children of Israel, and its corresponding verses in the Qur'an suffice for me. But for those idiots with a blinkered view of the world wise secular scholars, like commonsense, and for those who do not accept the validity of religious texts, there is another place to go - the law of the jungle""

Yah!!! and the roosters' crowing causes the sun to rise too! There are quite a few deluded secularists who still do not accept this elegant theory

#57
David Ben-Ariel
URL
January 1, 2009
06:49 PM

Those who continue to delude themselves that peace is possible with Nazi Muslims have their heads buried in the sand. It's past time the Israelis enforce peace through strength, expel their sworn enemies as Moses commands and former Israeli Parliament Member and rabbi Meir Kahane courageously called for (murdered by another Arab terrorist in NYC linked to the WTC bombing), and encourage Jewish pioneers to return to the biblical territories (they were cruelly removed from by "right-wing" Ariel Sharon with George Bush, alleged "friend of Israel," aiding and abetting, rewarding terrorism and punishing the innocent).

#58
commonsense
January 1, 2009
07:53 PM

yikes, reinforcement!! we need more deluded jokers, so this should be fun!

#59
commonsense
January 1, 2009
07:56 PM

Deluded David:

"It's past time the Israelis enforce peace through strength, expel their sworn enemies as Moses commands...""

Moses, I heard will soon make the land part, unlike the sea in the past, and move israel away to safety...

#60
commonsense
January 1, 2009
07:59 PM

hey, i responded #57; 58) to some "david"'s strange comment and not the coment to which i responded to is gone! perhaps it's me who's delusional. strange!!

#61
Ruvy
URL
January 2, 2009
05:22 AM

Again, let's move away from the comic antics of "commonsense" to the real world - where comedy and irony trump the puerile efforts of California based physics teachers.

Four and half to five years ago, this nation was being convulsed by a debate over whether to expel Jewish residents from Gush Qatif, who are now internal refugees living in gussied up cardboard boxes. One of the activists in the national camp (the side I'm on), Nadia Matar of the Women In Green, wrote a letter to the in-charge of the evacuation, Jonathan Bassi, who has since resigned that position.

In her letter she wrote, "The truth is that you are a modern version of the Judenrat - actually, a much worse version, because then, during the Holocaust, this was forced upon those Jewish leaders by the Nazis, and it is extremely difficult for us, today, to judge them. Today, no one stands with a gun to your head and forces you to collaborate in the crime, without any conscience pangs."

She continued, "the bloody price that we will have to pay for our retreat. If the criminal Oslo accords cost us more than 1,000 victims, Sharon's deportation plan will give such a push to the Nazi Arab terror (for the Arabs will see that Israel's folding is proof that terror pays) that I fear to think how many Jews will pay with their lives for Sharon's 'disengagement'."

Nadia Matar was attacked viciously for her letter. She defended it and warned in a press conference that that it was justified by the situation, because the Disengagement will lead to "Katyushas and rockets fired from Gaza."

That is the background of this story from Arutz Sheva.

She was charged under a left-over British Mandatory statute with "insulting a public official".

Originally, the charges were dismissed by Jerusalem Magistrates Court Judge David Mintz in September 2006, when it came to trial. Judge Mintz ruled that the law had been applied selectively after hearing examples of incendiary statements by left-wing activists and politicians who were not prosecuted. However, the State appealed the decision and succeeded in having the case returned to the lower court, with the stipulation that the prosecution be allowed to counter the assertion that speech laws have been applied selectively.

The new trial was to begin in Judge Mintz's court-room today. But now, according to Arutz Sheva, it will have to be postponed until 19 February.

Why?

Let's allow Nadia Matar's attorney to explain:

"Let it be written in the protocol that Attorney [Erez] Padan has been called up for the reserves as a direct result of the fact that his place of work, the Supreme Court, described the expulsion from Gush Katif, against which my client was protesting and for which she now stands trial, as something positive that will improve the security situation of Israel when today we know that it is that expulsion that brought upon us Katyushas in Be'er Sheva, Ashdod and Yavne. That is why Attorney Padan has been called up for reserves and my client is sitting on the bench of the accused."

It is not for nothing that I have repeatedly called these people in the Israeli government scum whose necks should be stretched for treason. Not only do they discriminate against Arabs, allowing employers to pay Arabs sub-standard wages; they also persecute believing Jews like Nadia Matar, and selectively enforce the law. Nevertheless the bitter irony and comic element of all this is not lost on me.

#62
Ruvy
URL
January 2, 2009
06:08 AM

Welcome to Desicritics, David. This place is not like Blogcritics, even though it is a daughter site. The comments policy (imported from Blogcritics) is enforced more the way way Europeans and Israelis enforce "freedom of speech" - somewhat more circumscribed, in other words.

When some of the commenters don't go after you with out of context idiocies (see comment #59), they quote Hindi and Urdu and don't translate. Just thought I'd warn you of a couple of the vines that could snag your ankles here.

A couple of more vines that can snag your ankles: South Asian society is a world unto itself. Be very sure you know what you are talking about when leaving the subjects that you understand well. An example for you to chew on. Hindus call the principles they live by Dharma, and someone not living by them "adharma". The various religions that are properly called Indic religions do not necessarily postulate the existence of G-d, nor do the "gods" and "goddesses" really constitute elements of pagan beleif at all. Properly speaking, all of the "gods" and "goddesses" reflect the G-dhead - for those Hindus who believe in G-d - not all do. Yet, they do follow Dharma.

One last point: the relationship between Moslems and Hindus, not always pleasant, casts a whole different hue on how events are looked at, and many Desis are not believers at all and fight with the believers, just the way the agnostics and atheists go after believing Christians at Blogcritics.

Have fun!

#63
Aaman
URL
January 2, 2009
08:45 AM

Interesting exegesis, Ruvy, of desi philosophy - you're almost a half-Desi already:)

#64
smallsquirrel
January 2, 2009
08:52 AM

"...and many Desis are not believers at all and fight with the believers, just the way the agnostics and atheists go after believing Christians at Blogcritics."

this was the crowning glory, really.
I think I just pissed myself laughing.

ruvy, you cannot understand hinduism only through judaism. seriously, broaden your horizons. also, not all desis are hindu.. some are jain, buddhist, sikh, muslim, etc.

#65
Ruvy
URL
January 2, 2009
09:16 AM

Smallsquirrel,

I barely used the term Hindu in my comments. That was purposeful. I talked about Indic religions, referring to the faiths you mention above (except Islam, which is not an Indic religion at all). But amongst the commenters here are agnostics, atheists and anti-clerics, as well as believers of various varieties, including a Zoroastrian writer, and an Assyrian Christian who knows Aramaic. I have made barely any reference to Judaism or Christianity either, if you've noticed. That was purposeful.

Nevertheless, entertainment is an important element of writing; I'm glad you've enjoyed yourself. So feel free to piss in your pants all you want - just remember, you'll be expected to change yourself....

#66
commonsense
January 2, 2009
09:38 AM

Ruvy:

""Nevertheless the bitter irony and comic element of all this is not lost on me.""

I suppose he refers to his own post #62 and his exposition of how he mis-understands Indian religions!

#67
smallsquirrel
January 2, 2009
09:46 AM

it was the word "believer".... sounds very fundy to me...

#68
Ruvy
URL
January 2, 2009
09:49 AM

You see, David? At Desicritics you have to expect a lot of out of context idiotic remarks. Got another one already.

Shabbat Shalom!

#69
commonsense
January 2, 2009
09:51 AM

Ruvy:

""Again, let's move away from the comic antics of "commonsense" to the real world""


And the REAL world is: (drum-roll....)


Ruvy:

"The Grant in the Torah of the Land of Israel to the Children of Israel, and its corresponding verses in the Qur'an suffice for me.""

Just in case anyone is confused about "REALITY"!! At least poor Ruvy has another fellow Kahaneite David on DC, to share his "vision of reality". No more indvidual delusions! Enjoy!!

#70
commonsense
January 2, 2009
11:12 AM

Ruvy:

"You see, David? At Desicritics you have to expect a lot of out of context idiotic remarks."

self-referential with a vengeance, aren't we today??

#71
commonsense
January 2, 2009
01:39 PM

Ruvy plays the "native informant", introducing the newcomer David to the strange habits of the tribes inhabiting DC:

Ruvy:

"You see, David? At Desicritics you have to expect a lot of out of context idiotic remarks."

He forgot to add:

And amazingly enough David, defying all logic and rationality, most of these DC tribals "believe" that sacred scriptures and revealed texts ought not to be the basis of settling territorial disputes! And this is just for starters!

#72
commonsense
January 2, 2009
03:28 PM

Ruvy (and David too),

Any more observations about the strange and peculiar habits and customs of the "natives"??

#73
Ruvy
URL
January 3, 2009
12:00 PM

It is a new week, and time once again to leave the comic antics of "commonsense" and crew, and report on the news. By the way, "commonsense", who teaches physics to Californian sun-bleached geniuses, is facing the end of his Christmas holiday break, and is returning to the prosaic task of teaching adults that shit flows downhill. See you later! Have fun! Don't break the chalk!!

Since I get only three URL links per comment, and do not desire to write comments till doomsday here updating so little news, I'll be going directly to Samson Blinded, a kind of "Uncle Jay Explains the News" for those of us who do not wish to dirty our shoes on the meters of shit the MSM pretends is news these days.

So, here we go, boys a and girls, as Samson Blinded Explains the News! (with apologies to Uncle Jay, of course)


IDF launches ground operation in Gaza?

Israeli army began artillery bombardment of Gaza, apparently to soften Hamas resistance before the invasion. The fire is too sporadic and may indicate IDF switching from aerial strikes to targeted artillery fire.


The media rolls the drum and rolls the drum announcing the IDF invasion of Gaza AND - nothing....


Swastikas in Herzlia

Theodore Herzl would have been proud: in the Jewish state, a safe haven for Jews, swastikas were painted on several cars in an affluent city called after him.


David ben-Gurion once said that this would be a normal country when we had burglars and prostitutes. Israel is one of the largest human trafficking centers on the planet and has not only its own home-grown organized crime, but the Russian imported kind too! Ben-Gurion, like Herzl, must be awful proud....


Bush supports international monitors in Gaza

US Administration accepted Olmert's solution of internationally "guaranteed" ceasefire in Gaza with UN troops monitoring the compliance. The solution is wrong, as seen in Lebanon, but there's no reason why Bush should be more concerned with Israeli interests than Olmert.


As we see here, the United States government is always ready to help the Israeli regime commit suicide. Such good friends we Jews have in America's government. We should say prayers of gratitude to them, bless their hearts....

And to think, only 17 days before the "messiah man", St. Barak Hussein Obama, becomes the American president. Hooray!!!!

the guy ain't even a natural born citizen, like the American constitution requires. Yet Americans chose him to be their president. Aren't Americans a generous people?


Izz ad Din Kassam Brigades chief dead

Abu Zakaria al-Jamal was killed in IAD air strike.


De bombs all and de terrostists, dey die!

And that's it for tonight, boys and girls! An abbreviated version of

Samson Blinded Explains the News! (with apologies and thanks to Uncle Jay)

#74
Ruvy
URL
January 3, 2009
03:47 PM

This shit turns on a dime - but it don't turn like any dime I've ever seen.

All of these are from Arutz Sheva, which is one of my preferred news sources.

Israeli soldiers have entered Gaza and gunfights are reported.

Israel has declared an official naval blockade on the Gaza coast.

Twenty terrorists have been killed in ground fighting in Gaza.

Apparently, there will be a ground campaign. G-d help us. I pray for the safety of our boys down there, and that G-d, in His Wisdom, forces the Israeli regime to do what is right, rather than to put the PLO in power there, as is their evident plan.

#75
commonsense
January 3, 2009
04:04 PM

Ruvy:

"All of these are from Arutz Sheva, which is one of my preferred news sources.""

Huh? God feels slighted. You "one" of the preferred news sources? God and so-called "revealed" texts are still in the game. Good lord! And I thought he had finally imbibed some commonsense.

#76
Ruvy
URL
January 3, 2009
04:06 PM

Go to Samson Blinded and see why this is my favorite news source.

This is a sample story from tonight's blog entries.

Israeli tanks enter Gaza

For six days, Israel was moving tanks from Syrian front to Gaza. Hamas watched the deployment of Israeli tanks powerless to counter the impending attack.

Israeli artillery, deployed at the border with Gaza, provides defensive fire for the tanks.

Hamas, PIJ had earlier boasted of foxholes and C-4 massive tank mines. It remains to be seen whether Israeli intelligence identified most of them.

Despite the Second Lebanon War experience, most Israeli tanks are not equipped with Trophy active missile defense and remain vulnerable to RPGs; Hamas stocked capable RPG-29's from Syria.

Learning from the Lebanon errors, Israeli tank crews in Gaza enjoy some support from helicopters which look out for RPG launchers.

As Israel has air monopoly over Gaza, tanks are not necessary to destroy the militants' targets. IDF now tries to reach into Hamas, PIJ pockets of resistance and provoke their dispersed fighters into battles. Presumably, even if they fire from residential buildings, IAF would take out the buildings. The tanks, therefore, act as a bait for Palestinian guerrillas.

The tank operation represent Israeli attempt to maintain the momentum. As IAF ran out of targets, Israel tries to keep initiative without ceding it to Hamas.

Small numbers of IDF troops, about 2,500 have so far entered Gaza, supported by tanks. The IDF success now depends on Hamas inability to disperse its fighters and allow the invading troops through before engaging them in hit-and-run attacks.

Israeli aims in the ground operation remain unclear. One stated goal is destroying Hamas infrastructure. Like what? Another is taking control of Kassam launch pads. But every square meter of land in Gaza is potentially a launch pad. Occupying a few miles of northern Gaza solves nothing as Grad missiles can be launched at Israel from south Gaza. Hamas has missiles whose range exceeds 40 miles.

Just like a week ago, Israeli government unnecessarily scheduled the attack for Shabbat (it's forbidden to fight on Shabbat unless one is under attack or required to save lives - Ruvy): though the invasion occurred in the evening, all the preparations were carried out in daytime. If that's an issue of saving lives, why didn't we invade a week ago?

#77
commonsense
January 3, 2009
04:13 PM

Ruvy:

""Go to Samson Blinded and see why this is my favorite news source.""

That does it!!! Hell as the saying goes, has no fury like God scorned! He dares to reject God as his favourite news-source! Fire and brimstone on their way, double-quick! Ducking won't help!

#78
Ruvy
URL
January 3, 2009
04:22 PM

From Arutz Sheva More bluster from Barak? Are he and Livni trying to defeat Netanyahu using the lives of Jewish soldiers? Or do we face a serious war?

Ehud Barak released a statement warning that Israel was prepared for attacks from the North (i.e. HizbAllah) and that this war would be long and hard, with a heavy burden on the soldiers. This was the report out of Arutz Sheva this evening, as IDF ground forces moved into the Gaza Strip. Iran had warned Saturday that HizbAllah would attack Israel if Israel were to expand its operations in Gaza to include a ground invasion. So, now we wait to see if Iran will make good on its threats.

#79
commonsense
January 3, 2009
04:28 PM

Ruvy:

"Go to Samson Blinded"

Poor Samson. Delilah would be postively undelighted.

Who did this to him and why??

#80
commonsense
January 3, 2009
04:31 PM

Ruvy:

"Are he and Livni trying to defeat Netanyahu using the lives of Jewish soldiers? Or do we face a serious war?"

Usually Ruvy is not too unhappy when the Palestinians are at the receiving end, but this time he seems to be quite critical. What gives (we can all guess, but it's good to get his point of view...before I offer my "pint" of view)

#81
Ruvy
URL
January 3, 2009
08:01 PM

This article from Arutz Sheva is just a summary of the reports I posted earlier, but as a news story, it gets "talkbacks", comments from readers.

It is the talkbacks I wanted to comment on here. The vast majority of readers sent prayers, good wishes, etc. to our boys fighting in Gaza. But two seem to comprehend the truth of events occuring there.

Comment #20 - There is Nothing Good About This: Kadima deliberately placing young Israelis in harm's way when they could have bombed 'Aza to smithereens from the air - Kadima are murderers make no mistake, friends of the Arabs and the gentiles - mortal enemies of Israel. Don't hide your head in the sand, this is the truth.

Comment #23 - You are right:
Rami (the previous commenter) is 100% right. The Israeli public seems so thick-headed, it is unbelievable.

There is nothing good about this. The north is not properly prepared for another war. But that can result if this attack goes forward. If casualties in the south mount, and the government comes under international pressure to withdraw, and does so, the credibility of the government and the IDF will have been flushed down the toilet.

Finally, there is the issue of what war from the north can mean. I do not think the unthinking Hiloním really understand that missiles with guidance systems in them will do far more damage than the noisy spears with explosives attached that constitute rockets. If I felt assured that the IDF and the government that commands it was willing to nuke Teheran, Damascus or Riyadh in retaliation for attacks on Israel, then I might feel a bit assured. But the IDF and government that controls it is not willing to go to war, to full war, to defeat and to annihilate the enemy, particularly the PLO, Hamas, PIJ and HizbAllah.

Half measures will not suffice; they will only create another war here. More death, more heartache, more widows, more pain, more parents burying children. If you do not go to war to win, then do not go to war at all.

This all looks like a painful series of half measures that will not do the job, and will only burden us with more debt and compulsory loans, along with more casualties.

#82
commonsense
January 3, 2009
08:38 PM

Ruvy,

Is there a phone number I can reach you at? Just in case you are suffering from insomnia, my horrible Indian accent, the one that put you to sleep at CUNY, could be the perfect cure. For free!

#83
Ruvy
URL
January 5, 2009
02:20 PM

Found some interesting points at Samson Blinded that may clarify things for those not already blinded by their hatred for either Jews or Israel.

From Ovadia Shoher's article:

THE PEACE PROCESS BEGAN WITH THE HOLOCAUST

The world's attempts at the peace process can only be understood in historical context. On their own, they are unintelligible. Why, indeed, the countries are so concerned with national rights of a three-million-people no-nation? The West doesn't support independence for hundreds of liberation movements worldwide even when they clearly involve historically, linguistically, and genetically distinguishable nations. Nor is the West overly concerned with one country taking another's land: the paragon of democracy had itself annexed a third of Mexico; Russia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and France annexed core German lands. Nor is anyone really concerned about suppressing minorities, especially when they are hostile: there is no need to appeal to the well-known example of Russia and Chechens when France legalized Breton names only a few years ago. It's also hard to see how is the West concerned with religious freedom in the places like Saudi Arabia.

Perhaps Israel is pushed to inessential concessions only? On the contrary, the Road Map plan demands us ceding the Temple Mount, Jerusalem, and Judea. If there are Jewish territories on earth, those are the ones. It's a sort of Russia abandoning Kremlin or America selling the White House.

Maybe some painful concessions are historically normal? Not for victors. There is not a single instance in the world history when an attacked country won the war, conquered the land from its enemy, and then relinquished it out of goodwill. Israel was attacked half a dozen times in six decades; taking over the enemy's land is a historically standard retribution.

Is there any benefit for Israel in agreeing to the concessions, however bizarre? No, they are clearly suicidal. No state can possibly exist in eight-mile-wide borders, let alone a state besieged by three hundred million enemies.

Look further. The US, our closest ally, bans our attack on Iran which will get nuclear weapons the next year. The US Administration is therefore okay with nuclear Iran which wants to wipe Israel off the map. This is not an isolated event: America condemned Israel for bombing the Iraqi nuclear reactor. In 1967, the outlook was apocalyptic, Jews dug tens of thousands of graves and prepared for total annihilation, but the US barred us from preempting; likewise in 1973. Two years after Holocaust, the United Stated and Britain did not give their UN votes for establishing Jewish state. When the state was established nonetheless, they embargoed weapons sales.

..........

In 1944, Germans came up with an offer to release up to one million Jews; the Allies refused to negotiate. When Jewish organizations scrambled to collect the necessary amount, the Allies informed them that the borders would remain shut. The Jews were sent to Auschwitz.

During the Holocaust, America, Britain, and Russia conducted daily radio broadcasts on occupied territories. Millions of people listened to every word. Not a single time had the broadcasters warned the Jews to flee or told about the massacres. Stalin new about the extermination from day one, Roosevelt and Churchill - at least from January 1942, probably earlier. Their intelligence intercepted German radio transmissions with exact numbers of murdered Jews, but they did not warn the Jews to flee. So when the Jews boarded the trains to Auschwitz, the name meant nothing to them.

Before the war, when Germans and Austrians repressed the Jews atrociously, Britain concurred with exactly similar measures: just like Germany and Austria, Britain forbade Jews to buy land - in the Jewish national home, entrusted to Britain by the League of Nations. The 1939 White Paper formally reneged on the Balfour declaration and the Mandate's terms, limited Jewish immigration to a trickle, subject to Arab approval, and blocked Jews from the only place in the world they could escape to.

The free world gathered at the Evian conference (1935) to find a place for Jewish refugees. At the time, immigration to the US ran well below the legally established quota; even without moral considerations, the law allowed about 100,000 more immigrants per year. The US and Britain announced they would not admit any refugees, a euphemism for Jewish undesirables. The Britain reneged on its obligation to establish Jewish national home in Palestine just when it was most needed, and curtailed immigration into our own land; a laughable explanation was that the Arabs were upset about the coming Jews - as if the Britain cared in the least about opinions of Palestinian peasants. There was no place for Jews in other parts of the globe-spanning British empire, too. Other countries happily followed the suit. The Germans got the message: their opponents don't want the Jews anywhere.

The Holocaust was a four-headed beast: America, Britain, and Russia played their parts.

The peace process is just another means of Holocaust.


What Mr. Shoher states here is the blunt truth unsullied by the niceties and the bullshit tossed around by the sympathizers and fans of the "poor Palestinians".

When it is a choice between my own people living or another people living, I will pick my people. But I'm also smart enough to understand clearly that my real enemy is not the Arab necessarily.

No.

My real enemies are America, Britain, Germany (in the guise of the EU) and Russia. The Arabs are the tool (witting or unwitting) in their hands - for now.

So, based on what "the world" has said and done "the world" can go to hell, for all I care.

#84
Guido
January 5, 2009
03:18 PM

Un-fucking-believable!

Your ingratitude to a country and a people who you and millions in Israel owe your very existence to is absolutely off the chart.

The German death camps weren't even discovered until July 1944 by the Russians...and not by the west until 1945:

"In the west, camps were discovered and liberated by the western Allies as well, including the Bergen-Belsen camp on 15 Apr 1945. Dwight Eisenhower toured the remnants of a concentration camp near the town of Gotha in Apr 1945 and recorded his experience that was indescribable with words: "I have never felt able to describe my emotional reactions when I first came face to face with indisputable evidence of Nazi brutality and ruthless disregard of every shred of decency.... I have never at any other time experienced an equal sense of shock." On 29 Apr, members of the American 101st Airborne Division discovered a labor camp that was part of the Dachau complex, the first concentration camp established, near Landsberg at the foothills of the Alps. "The memory of the starved, dazed men," remembered Richard Winters of Company E of the 506th Regiment, "who dropped their eyes and heads when we looked at them through the chain-link fence, in the same manner that a beaten, mistreated dog would cringe, leave feelings that cannot be described and will never be forgotten."

Don't you think SHAFE would have used ANY evidence of the holocaust against the Germans if they had it? Not even the local Germans in towns neighboring the camps had any clue of the magnitude of the horrors occurring.

Millions of American's died...MILLIONS! The Germans and Japanese both attacked us. The Nazi's through unregulated open warfare on the high seas, and Japan at Pearl Harbor. And what real-estate did we keep? Just enough to bury the millions of our dead.

Perhaps it would have been better for Israel and the rest of the world if America would have just stayed home.

You are the most ungrateful hateful SOB I have ever had the privilege NOT to meet. Thank G-d!

Excuse me if I forgo salutations.

#85
commonsense
January 5, 2009
03:43 PM

Hey,

And pea-brained commonsense here thought that Guido and Ruvy here were allies, usually complementing each other! OK, just because both of you are Americans (although Ruvy pretends to be an Israel after having spent all but seven years of his life in Brooklyn and Minnesota), it does not follow you have to get along. But still...

This is hilarious. All we need now is Kerty the Zionist lover, to have a public falling out with Ruvy. When it comes to irrational folks slugging it out irrationally, be prepared for anything.

#86
commonsense
January 5, 2009
03:59 PM

Ruvy:

"My real enemies are America, Britain, Germany (in the guise of the EU) and Russia. The Arabs are the tool (witting or unwitting) in their hands - for now.

So, based on what "the world" has said and done "the world" can go to hell, for all I care."

Proverbs such as "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" were not pulled out of thin air. There is a reason why they exist and are used. Not that Ruvy is the first one to justify the existence of such sayings, but he sure demonstrates it here. Same with words such as "ungrateful", "slimy", "treachearous", "untrustworthy" etc. etc.

#87
commonsense
January 5, 2009
04:09 PM

Ruvy:

"My real enemies are America, Britain, Germany (in the guise of the EU) and Russia. The Arabs are the tool (witting or unwitting) in their hands - for now."

OK!!! Go it!! Ummm...Errr..who one might ask, are "your" friends - for now??

Folks get ready for some delusional post-humor!!

Post-hilariousness perhaps, particularly in light of the violence, bloodshed in the region.

#88
commonsense
January 5, 2009
04:35 PM

Hey Ruvy,

Give us a hint who your friends are (in addition to God, Kahane and those whom you consider to be the lost Jewish tribes in Pakistan, except they don't know about this!)

#89
Ruvy
URL
January 5, 2009
05:10 PM

Guido,

I'm not ungrateful at all. I'm terribly realistic, that's all. America went to war in WWII because she was attacked. There can be no complaint there. Her regime chose to side with Britain before she went to war. That was her choice. I believe it was the wise choice. But that was not done for us Jews, Guido. We did not count in that equation at all.

And it was also her choice (as it was Britain's and France's) not to allow Jewish refugees from Hitler to enter with certain exceptions. Americans per se are not my enemies. You aren't; millions of decent people like you aren't. But the American regime is. That is the America referred to here. I cannot afford the luxury of delusion.

I could produce a laundry list of why this is so. But frankly I'd rather not just now. My glasses frame just popped a lens and it can be difficult to see for me. But Guido, I suspect we have been over this ground before, a while ago.

You will see in the fullness of time that the United States forces or attempts to force Israel to follow what amounts to a suicidal policy. I state this with as much confidence as I tell you the sun will rise in the east tomorrow.

But to return to the gratitude issue, let's take it a bit further. From outward appearances, it would seem that Jews never had it better than in the US. Indeed, for over a century, Jews have prospered there. My grandfather fled there, my father fled there, rather than to this country, a malarial swamp at the time. My family prospered there. Indeed, one of my cousins achieved some minor fame in the music industry. Outwardly, I should have nothing to complain about. Outwardly, I indeed sound like a fuckin' ingrate. I do understand how this must read to you, Guido.

But there has been a price paid. Comfort has been paid for in losing our identity, and our national pride. Most American Jews have no clue of the centrality of Israel in their lives and when reminded, do not want to know. They plug their ears; consequently they eventually walk the way of the foreigner. There are no concentration camps to kill us in the States. There needn't be. Assimilation and intermarriage is killing us off just as effectively, without the inconvenience of dead, smelly bodies. It is the "kinder, gentler" Holocaust. Only the parents or grandparents who really understand the magnitude of the loss cry in their hearts, silently. Nobody really wants to hear their politically incorrect, old fashioned ideas in America. They'd all turn on "American Idol" or watch "24" or "Prison Break" - or better yet, play silly games on Facebook.

That cousin I mentioned before - the one with the minor amount of fame? He is an outstanding musician and a mensch of the first order. I love the guy dearly and respect him. But I do not know if anyone from his children will be able to say Kaddish (the prayer of separation from the dead recited by mourners) for him when he dies. I have tried to get him to come to the Jacob's Ladder Concert here in Israel, a bluegrass music concert (my cousin is a blugrass musician of some standing). If he were to come, thousands would come to see him. It would be a grand gig! But he would rather stay near his family where he lives in the States. Nobody in his family cares that they are Jewish. Their links to their ancient roots are so tenuous as to be virtually non-existent.

This story is very common in America. Judaism consists more and more of the worship of the victimization of the holocaust. All the rest is somehow just dropped away, forgotten. The Sabbath, kashrut, G-d, His commandments - everything but the victimization of the holocaust is forgotten.

So, the prosperity is a deal with the Devil. And the Devil is taking his due. Broke and poor as I am, my roots are firmly planted in my ancient homeland. My kids know know of G-d and love Him, know how to celebrate the Sabbath, know who they are and what their ancient roots in this land are. When I die, if they yet live, my sons will say Kaddish for me, as they should.

#90
Morris
January 5, 2009
05:26 PM

Ruvy

"My real enemies are America, Britain, Germany (in the guise of the EU) and Russia. The Arabs are the tool (witting or unwitting) in their hands - for now"

I don't believe this. Your way is not the only way to look at the world. The same events viewed from different perspective will allow us to reach give entirely different conclusions. Being the world leader the US has a responsibility to be fair to all. TO the majority of the world they do not have an appearance of fairness. They are towaards Israel.

#91
Ruvy
URL
January 5, 2009
05:32 PM

Finally, we have made the bastards howl!

Arutz Sheva reports that a Hamas spokesman claims victory for Hamas as he calls for the murder of Jewish children. The spokesman, Mahmood Zahar spoke from his hideout. Now we are hearing the kind of bloodcurdling threats we used to hear back in the late 60's. It's not that he should not be taken seriously. These terrorists mean business and have every intention of killing every Jew they can. But now, their motivation is higher. And they are screaming for vengeance.

And the nice thing of it all is that at this point, they cannot carry out their desires.

#92
Morris
January 5, 2009
05:55 PM

Ruvy

"My real enemies are America, Britain, Germany (in the guise of the EU) and Russia. The Arabs are the tool (witting or unwitting) in their hands - for now."

I don't believe this. The US is world leader. They do not necessarily see the world the same way as you do. So what? But to conclude that they are your enemy is outrageous. Then who are your friends? The same events viewed from different perspective will allow one to reach entirely different conclusions. Ruvy, please think it over unemotionaly. Your agenda does not necessarily be the agenda for all. If your enemy has the same kind of thinking, we will never have peace in the world.


#93
commonsense
January 5, 2009
06:11 PM

Morris:

""I don't believe this. The US is world leader. They do not necessarily see the world the same way as you do. So what? But to conclude that they are your enemy is outrageous. Then who are your friends? The same events viewed from different perspective will allow one to reach entirely different conclusions. Ruvy, please think it over unemotionaly.""

And on my part, I don't believe this either! No, not what Ruvy is saying, since he has never changed his tune. What I don't believe is Morris urging postively unhinged and delusional Ruvy to "please think it over unemotinaly".

Morris I want to ask you a serious question: have you been following what Ruvy has been spewing over the past few months? On the other hand, my question to you is unfair, since you obviously believe in all humans, compared to my 99.99 percent minus the Ruvys and the Kertys of this world.

#94
Ruvy
URL
January 6, 2009
05:43 AM

I received this article in an e-mail from a friend living in Efrat, Ya'akov. Note what he has to say, and then go to the link and read this article in Ynetnews by Elyakim Ha'etzni.

To see this in ynetnews is astonishing. This is the online site of Yediot Ahronot, the newspaper with the largest circulation in Israel. Usually, their notion of "balance" involves giving editorial space to a stereotypical "right wing-nut" who comes off like Atila the Hun. The very fact that they gave editorial space to someone as articulate as Elyakim Haetzni says a great deal.

Ya'akov


The price of disengagement
Gaza war shows that fortunately for Tel Aviv, there was no West Bank pullout


From the article:

There's also consensus against taking over the Strip. The Left says it because the mere mention of "occupation" causes anxiety among its ranks, while the Right says it because it knows Israel would hand over Gaza to Fatah, and this is no reason to send our soldiers into battle.

Therefore, why did we embark on the ground incursion? To take over launching sites? And how long will we hold on to them? The truth is that the objective is to kill so many of them so that they "learn the lesson." In the failed Vietnam War they referred to it as "body count." However, the other side can also kill, and how many of our own victims compared to their victims will count as "victory?" The answer is that not even one Israeli soldier is worth it.

.......

When the northern section of the Strip was home to the Israeli communities of Nissanit, Elei Sinai, and Dugit, and when Netzarim separated Gaza from the refugee camps, and when Gush Katif was the home front of the Philadelphi Route, there were no rockets being fired at Ashdod and there were not Hizbullah-style "nature reserves" in the Strip.

Retrospectively, it's already clear: The settlements in Gaza safeguarded Beersheba and Gedera, and by defending them the IDF defended the entire south (using much fewer forces.)

Now look at Judea and Samaria. There has been no second front there, and the IDF operates there as if it is a man in his own home; fortunately for Tel Aviv, there was no disengagement here. Meanwhile, the conclusion regarding the return of the Jews to their communities in Gaza is also clear, yet it cannot be stated in official media outlets as it is politically incorrect. Yet nonetheless, the time for it shall come.

#95
Ruvy
URL
January 6, 2009
08:24 AM

Arutz Sheva, reporting on the BIG WHORE (Sarkozy) conferring with the Little Whore (Bashir Assad).

Sarkozy Pressures Assad to Pressure Hamas to End Violence

I almost spit my coffee on the computer screen when I read this from the article: Assad labeled Israel's counter-terror operation as "criminal", "barbaric" and "aggressive".

Bashir-baby is the incompetent son of the man who murdered off 20,000 Syrians using gas weapons a number of years ago.

#96
commonsense
January 6, 2009
09:19 AM

Unhinged Ruvy gets infinitely more unhinged if no one responds to his inanities

#97
Ruvy
URL
January 6, 2009
02:02 PM

[Please put a short excerpt AND a link. No long emails that cannot be substantiated]

#98
Ruvy
URL
January 6, 2009
02:18 PM

This entry is especially for Guido, who just cannot understand or accept that his government is out to destroy Israel. The American régime has always undercut the State of Israel under the table while publicly pretending support. The mask has been so effective that the useful idiots here on this site who support the Arabs are convinced that the States are Israel's undying and loyal ally.

But the truth is as I have been claiming to be, and this is my smoking gun. The "support" of the United States is about to disappear and an Israel-hostile regime is about to take over.

U.S. Intelligence Official about Israel: "This is just the beginning"

From the article:

U.S. Intelligence official "breaks silence" on Israel situation"

31 December 2008: Northeast Intelligence Network director Doug Hagmann interviewed a highly-placed U.S. intelligence official late yesterday who not only confirmed rumors about escalated and more intensive Israeli military operations against the Muslim terrorists in Gaza, warned of the increasing probability of abandonment of Israel by the U.S. and other Western countries based on what he termed "malicious intelligence."

"Remember that term," advised this well-placed intelligence official, "you'll be hearing it again."

"This is just the beginning," stated this intelligence official, who wished to remain anonymous. This official stated that the possibility for a much more protracted ground war is more likely today than at any other time in the past, adding that Israel is exercising her right to protect herself from her enemies in Gaza. But there is a catch, noted this official, and a big one at that: Israel could be about to lose the support of the United States.

"I have every reason to believe, based on what I've seen at my level of [security] clearance especially over the last several years, that Israel will soon be completely on their own... or worse." When asked what could be worse than losing the support of the United States, he stated: "when our administration provides more support to Arab countries [with] financial and military aid, undercutting Israel's defense efforts all while pushing Israel to succumb to the pressure of unreasonable demands designed to end with their political annihilation as a nation."

According to this official, the U.S. has been slowly proceeding down this road. He cited the 2005 surrender of Gush Katif to the Palestinian Authority as one critical example of the slow dismantlement of Israel as a viable nation. "Despite critical intelligence outlining in every possible manner imaginable that this would be a disastrous move leading to the events we are seeing today, it was done anyway," he stated.

"We are seeing the very scenario play out today that was outlined in intelligence briefs three and four years ago. Knowing that, there is something very wrong with this picture," he stated.


Guido, the government of my country has been kissing the ass of your government for the last 2 decades or more: read the link and see the reward they will get for covering their lips with the shit of your various administrations.

#99
commonsense
January 6, 2009
02:34 PM

Ruvy:

"This entry is especially for Guido, who just cannot understand or accept that his government is out to destroy Israel. The American régime has always undercut the State of Israel under the table while publicly pretending support. The mask has been so effective that the useful idiots here on this site who support the Arabs are convinced that the States are Israel's undying and loyal ally."

Excuse me while i wash my langoti and hang it out to dry. I haven't laughed so much in a long, long time. Now I peed in my underwear, and my office is a mess. Lucky this happened after i finished teaching!

#100
commonsense
January 6, 2009
02:39 PM

Ruvy:

"Guido, the government of my country has been kissing the ass of your government for the last 2 decades or more: read the link and see the reward they will get for covering their lips with the shit of your various administrations."

a bit confusing, even at the quantum or nano level. Both Guido and Ruvy are American. so, what's this about "your coutry" and "my country"? Does Ruvy still have an "imaginary friend" like country??

#101
commonsense
January 6, 2009
02:53 PM

Ruvy,

My underwear is all dry now even though i still pee a bit after witnessing your "smoking gun" - no I don't meant that gun, just the article you refer to as the "smoking gun".

Why are you reading articles written by mere humans? Direct line to God disrupted or something?

#102
Guido
January 6, 2009
03:10 PM

Reference my previous post #84

Time to publically eat crow.

I'm disappointed in myself for breaking two of my own blogging rules: 1) Never comment in anger, and 2) reread and fact check prior to posting. I failed to do both.

America did not lose millions in WWII. Although millions of allies died fighting the Axis, the US death toll was 418,500. There is no excuse for this mistake in light of my background.

Despite having my fill of humble pie, I stand by the post. The error in numbers does not negate the premise.

To Ruvy I can only suggest that you follow and trust your instincts. If you believe that America is your enemy, then fight her. And if America is your foe, than so am I. Write to your leaders and advise them to immediately cut all ties. Do everything you can as an Israeli citizen to raise awareness. No need to kiss ass any longer. I am not being facetious.

America is out to destroy you...we are the enemy. You words. I suggest you strike before she attacks first. Condemn and resist her. And if time and resources permit, send money to those blowing up my friends and colleagues in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It seems you and the Palestinians have more in common than I thought.

I have nothing further to say to you Ruvy. Good luck and have a nice life.

Ciao, Guido

#103
Ruvy
URL
January 6, 2009
04:55 PM

Some people have sense in their heads. This article, To my Arab brothers: The War with Israel Is Over -- and they won. Now let's finally move forward, was written 2½ years ago. Its sane advice was ignored then, and is being ignored now, thousands of Arab casualties later.

While in my eyes, terrorists deserve to die, nobody deserves to have his life cut short if he does not seek to cut short the life of others. Yet thousands of Arabs have died, many of them non-combatants in what the author calls "a rotten bill of goods -- more pain, greater corruption, and millions stolen by his relatives -- while your children played in the sewers of Gaza."

The author, Youssef M. Ibrahim, a former New York Times Middle East Correspondent and Wall Street Journal Energy Editor for 25 years, is a freelance writer based in New York City and Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.

#104
kaffir
January 6, 2009
05:00 PM

"The author, Youssef M. Ibrahim, a former New York Times Middle East Correspondent and Wall Street Journal Energy Editor for 25 years, is a freelance writer based in New York City and Dubai in the United Arab Emirates."
-

That's all fine Ruvy - I guess he's a dissident too. But is he an awesome jazz musician, or a musician of any kind? If not, then I'm afraid his ideas are no good. ;)

#105
Anamika
January 6, 2009
05:16 PM

More pertinently Kaffir, is he actually a Palestinian? Else its a bit like having a Swede deckaring the ETA issue "over" in Spain.

Or just the fact that they would be both white, European and Christian make it okay?

#106
kaffir
January 6, 2009
05:28 PM

"More pertinently Kaffir, is he actually a Palestinian? Else its a bit like having a Swede deckaring the ETA issue "over" in Spain."

-

Anamika, going by your above logic, why are so many Indians so passionately discussing Israel-Palestine issue and blithely offering opinions as if they are experts? If someone has a perspective that may help achieve peace in the reason, that should be considered and welcomed.

But I guess peace has little chance when the issue becomes "I am right and you are wrong" and "I have to defeat you" - the all too familiar ego.

Of course, the other tactic to undermine someone if s/he doesn't agree with one's position is to bring up red herrings, like you did. It won't be long before someone digs up the dirt on your favorite jazz musician to undermine him and his idea. And so the game goes on....

#107
kaffir
January 6, 2009
05:32 PM

correction: "..peace in the region.."

Anamika, here's a brief bio, based on which I think he knows something about the region as well as the issue, and is "not a Swede declaring "ETA" issue over in Spain":

# Regional Middle East Correspondent, New York Times, 1986-1996
# Energy Editor, Wall Street Journal, 1981-1986
# Associate Editor, Mideast Markets, 1972-1975
# News Clerk, then Foreign Correspondent and Bureau Chief, Tehran Office, New York Times, 1972-1981

#108
Ruvy
URL
January 6, 2009
05:36 PM

[baiting]

#109
Ruvy
URL
January 6, 2009
06:23 PM

[baiting]

#110
Ruvy
URL
January 6, 2009
06:47 PM

Save the Poor Starving Gazans

My heart goes out to this tragically persecuted people.

#111
commonsense
January 6, 2009
08:07 PM

i suggest we ease up the throttle on Ruvy. Maybe i mean the opposite of what i wanted to say. Second try: let's be a bit easy on Ruvy. After all, most Israelis simply despise the settlers. And then almost all Israelis hate Kahane followers. He has nowhere to go, so he keeps talking about his non-existent "my people", in a prophetic mode. Perhaps he derives his sense of self from being despised. Either way, it's best to leave him alone, because, just like Kerty who is certainly giving a bad name to Hindutav (and of course Hindus too), Ruvy is certainly someone to whom most Jews are allergic to.

Who will join my Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Ruvy? Anyone??

#112
Slime_id
January 7, 2009
07:08 AM

Ruvy, This is a new world. In this world, you need to fight the Hamas not with ammunition nor with food and medical blockade. But by being Novel.

a) TACTIC 1 : TITs for tattas.
The Hamas know your tactics and they will survive. so change your tactics. Think Beyond 2009. The maximum Hamas can do is to send Rockets.

suggest you send rockets into Gaza. It is as simple as that. send 100 rockets for every rocket Hamas sends. But Send on Friday as Hamas can decide in the mosque meetings if they can smuggle so many rockets. Don't call usrself as Israeeli rockets but call them some SamaH fatah Group. Better if the rockets are fired from West Bank.

b) Hamas have tunnels. Why don't you dig tunnels into those tunnels and pass sea water into them.
The mice have to be squeezed out before you kill them.

#113
Anamika
January 7, 2009
11:41 AM

Kaffir: First of all, none of the desi commentrators here are being sold to us as the "voice of reason" on part of one or the other side, which is what Ruvy tried to do with this particular writer (scroll back and READ).

And that CV you attached for Mr. Ibrahim says he has lived and worked in the Middle East. Is he actually from Palestine? Or is this just a generic Arab/Muslim that Ruvy has trotted out because he says what Ruvy wants to propogate. Its like having a Thai person being considered as a representative of India on the Kashmir issue.

Keep trying though....I am actually enjoying this because after nearly 60 years, the US/Europe/Israel propaganda is begin to disintegrate. Truly a post-colonial world....

#114
Ruvy
URL
January 7, 2009
12:24 PM

Kaffir,

Youssef M. Ibrahim is not from what used to be known as Mandate Palestine - either the Jordanian or Israeli side. That is the precise point of the article. Youssef M. Ibrahim is an Arab telling his "Palestinian" brothers it's time to move the fuck on. He says it in politer terms but he makes clear the Arab nation is not interested in fighting for "Palestine". His advice is cut a deal with the winners, stop bitching and moaning, and acting like sore losers - it's gotten old already. I suspect he represents lots more Arabs than the PLO, Hamas, HizbAllah, Islamic Jihad or all the other Arab thugs and murderers whom the secular Israeli government thinks have any meaning.

Of course, if the United States or Europe is paying the PLO to keep going (and the bastards are) then they will - to the last dollar and euro they can suck dry. Then they'll go to war. And then we'll slaughter the bastards. And hopefully when that day comes, we'll do it without mercy - as it says in Psalm 58: the righteous shall rinse their feet in the blood of the evil ones."

#115
commonsense
January 7, 2009
12:30 PM

Ruvy:

"Of course, if the United States or Europe is paying the PLO to keep going (and the bastards are)"

Yes, and Israel gets the second highest "aid" in the world, presumably not from the US, but God himself or herself!

#116
Kerty
January 7, 2009
12:36 PM

Anamika

"the US/Europe/Israel propaganda is begin to disintegrate. Truly a post-colonial world."

You do not want to go back to world that predated colonial or post-colonial world. Because when you vacate the post-colonial world, they provide the defaults, they take over. We still have vivid memory of ottoman and mogual era that pre-dated colonial era. We don't want to go back there again. But post post-colonial world could very well be that - a world of perpetual jehads. We can't let Jehadism win the post-colonial world. If you think this is all about and only about Palestinians, than you seriously misread all sides.

#117
commonsense
January 7, 2009
12:53 PM

Strange, but when i look at Ruvy's picture, he looks pretty sane and together. Not at all like somebody who lives in his own world and in urgent need of therapy...

#118
commonsense
January 7, 2009
01:00 PM

Ooops, I did not read Ruvy's profile carefully enough.

It does say that he "writes stories"!

Damn, and me arguing with him, when all he is doing is writing stories!! Sorry mate!

#119
kaffir
January 7, 2009
01:11 PM

Is he actually from Palestine?

Well, I'm sure there are Palestinians who want to erase Israel from the map, and Israelis who want to do the same to Palestinians. Do their opinions get more legitimacy, or are those opinions more reasonable because they are coming from people who live in Israel-Palestine?

Examine the merit of the ideas - I though world citizens as well as Hindus like you were open to ideas from all over. Isn't there a famous shloka capturing that essence? So why this anemic focus on whether he's from Palestine or not?

Or is this just a generic Arab/Muslim that Ruvy has trotted out because he says what Ruvy wants to propogate(sic).

Just like you trotted out your "amazing jazz musician" because his views are aligned with yours? ;-)
Pot, kettle. :-)

Keep trying though....I am actually enjoying this..

Of course, one has to keep trying - just like you are trying. And the feeling of enjoyment is mutual, tyvm. :-)

#120
Ruvy
URL
January 7, 2009
01:12 PM

So where is the desi editor to remove the crap in comments 111, 117 and 118 and call it baiting? It really is getting sickening and pathetic. And more to the point, old.

Or do desis get to bait the white folk on this site with free pass? If so, maybe I should publicize that fact.

#121
kaffir
January 7, 2009
01:28 PM

Anamika, if a Palestinian came up with the same idea and same solution as Youssef M. Ibrahim, going by your logic, you'd accept it. Correct? :)

#122
Anamika
January 7, 2009
01:40 PM

Kaffir - you want to NOT get it because facts dont tally with your little belief system, thats your decision. But lets cut through the BS:

Just picking some random guy from the ME as an "Arab" - as Ruvy has done - to "speak" for and to Palestinians makes ZERO sense.

Palestinians are Arab in the same way as Spaniard are Europeans. However that does not mean that concerns or interests of a Gulf Arab or even an Iraqi Arab will be the same as that of a Palestinian simply because they are both "Arab", just as the interests/concerns of a Swede wont be the same as a Spaniard just because they are both "European."

SO if you are going to claim that Ruvy's little example is an "Arab" view (which is what he did), well make sure the guy actually is from the same country at least and/or has a stake in its affairs.

This is why your little pot/kettle jibe re Atzmon's article falls flat.

Why dont you google Gilad Atzmon - he is one of Israel's key dissidents. AND the fact he is a born and bred Israeli/Jewish with parents who fought for the establishment of Israel and he himself has fought for Israel gives him a SPECIFIC stake in what happens to and in that country. And that is what makes his view of what is happening in Israel far more astute than what we hear on DC from the likes of Ruvy.

Again and again, we have been told by Ruvy and co that no desi can understand Israel because we haven't "lived with Hamas rockets." Well, Atzmon HAS lived with the rockets, and with PLO and PFLP and with the first war in Lebanon AND FOUGHT for Israel through all of it. And he realised through his own experience that Israel had gone very wrong. That takes a hell of a lot of courage and intellectual integrity, especially since he has chosen to live by his conscience and take the consequences of expressing his views (unlike the anonymity of DC).

Moreover, he isn't some fanatic messianic settler from America with seven years of living who then claims to be the expert!!! But then actually getting the facts wont fit your comfortable view of reality either.

And now as you guys cant actually debate/discuss on an reasonable/rational grounds, this has gotten really boring. Enjoy your delusions and - as SS said to Ruvy - may your god/karma/angel have mercy on your cruel morally bankrupt souls.

#123
kerty
January 7, 2009
03:11 PM

Anamika

"Enjoy your delusions and...may your god/karma/angel have mercy on your cruel morally bankrupt souls."

It is easy to look at issues parochially, from narrow or emotional angles. Anybody can parade pictures of children and human suffering to score few PR points. It is a daunting task not to be manipulated.

#124
commonsense
January 7, 2009
03:20 PM

Kerty:

"It is a daunting task not to be manipulated."

I've never heard of any prophets (wannabees or "real") being either manipulated or womanipulated. they are usually in their own private delusional universe.

#125
commonsense
January 7, 2009
03:27 PM

Ruvy:

"Or do desis get to bait the white folk on this site with free pass?""

Ha ha! the race card again, but from a slimy angle!!

(Folks I'm trying my best to keep him occupied so others can discuss real issues)

#126
smallsquirrel
January 7, 2009
03:37 PM

the time has come to ignore Reuven. He's gotten far too much attention. Just cut him off. Done. it's like how I will not debate a holocaust denier because it's not a legitimate point of view. let's stop giving Ruvy a platform for his hate, no. If we all stop responding to him, won't he just go away?

#127
Anamika
January 7, 2009
03:55 PM

SS: One part of me agrees with you. The problem is that he doesn't just go away but remains to spout his hate on DC.

My question is should hate be allowed uncontested? I am sure you had some experience of discussing the Holocaust and the Nazis in India where the average person really doesn't know much about either.

Unfortunately, the same happens in case of Israel/Palestine issue where post-9/11 narrative has been so successfully used by various countries to deal with their specific issues that many Indians have no idea about Israel's actions except that they are "against jihadis." Just look at the stuff that has been posted on DC by on Gaza - no context, no information, no understanding, but definitely an opinion and a blood-thirst for "jihadi" blood.

In such a case, it is necessary to counter the hate speech to stop it from spreading.

I agree that its useless/impossible to debate with a Holocaust-denier but perhaps its necessary to rebut them? Perhaps we just don't engage with him but simply rebut his absurdities?

#128
commonsense
January 7, 2009
03:57 PM

Commonsense stands up and applauds SS!!!

I will stick to my end of the non-truce with Ruvy. Sounds a bit strange. OK, I will stop responding to Ruvy.

I suggest the same for kerty too, perhaps after a grace period of two weeks or so. During that period, Kerty and Ruvy can provide aid and comfort to each other.

(i am sort of underconfident at the moment and kerty's out of this world illogical statements make me look good in comparison)

#129
smallsquirrel
January 7, 2009
04:02 PM

anamika, yes I see the issue. if we respond to him we legitimize him as the "other side if the argument" but if we do not respond we allow his hatred and ridiculousness to go unchecked. difficult decision.

but look.. kela and chandra and those SIFFers kinda went away when we stopped giving them attention. however, I also think ruvy is a nut of a different kind. he is one of those "true believer" kinds, and so I am unsure of what to do. all I know is that I cannot stand his repetitive blathering for much longer. it is tiresome.

anyone else got any ideas?

#130
smallsquirrel
January 7, 2009
04:05 PM

ah, I missed a crucial part of your suggestion Anamika. We can continue to discuss the issues and yet not respond to him directly. I think that works. That will cut off direct attention to his antics, and yet still work to uncover the truth. it is important that we still allow other voices, but his is just too moronic to stand.

#131
kerty
January 7, 2009
04:19 PM

Anamika

"no context, no information, no understanding, but definitely an opinion and a blood-thirst for "jihadi" blood"

That sounds like Jehadophobia is a terrible thing. How irrational of people to give into phobia.

#132
commonsense
January 7, 2009
04:38 PM

SS to Anamika:

""We can continue to discuss the issues and yet not respond to him directly. I think that works. That will cut off direct attention to his antics"

yes, this is what i also meant when I wrote:

"(Folks I'm trying my best to keep him occupied so others can discuss real issues)",

Although it's a bit tough to keep an occupier occupied!

As far as useless blather goes, I promise to cut back on mine too...i do over-do it all the time!



#133
Anamika
January 7, 2009
04:46 PM

SS, lets give it a shot...the not engaging directly but countering the propaganda. Lets hope it works...

CS, that means no baiting because he is like a spoilt child who behaves badly because even a scolding or punishment is a form of attention. :-)

#134
Guido
January 7, 2009
07:41 PM

"As far as useless blather goes, I promise to cut back on mine too..."

Yeah, right! And Hamas and Israel are going to kiss and make up.

#135
commonsense
January 7, 2009
08:49 PM

guido, are you related to antonio gaudi? now that's not useless blather is it? "useless blather" it is when directed towards Kerty and Ruvy. You are a prime candidate for that category, but you have to work a bit harder to enter that hall of "fame". not quite there yet.

#136
sarah islam
URL
January 8, 2009
12:33 AM

Anamika:

"My question is should hate be allowed uncontested? I am sure you had some experience of discussing the Holocaust and the Nazis in India where the average person really doesn't know much about either.

...In such a case, it is necessary to counter the hate speech to stop it from spreading."

Very well said. I so agree with you. Just like I wouldn't let anyone get away with anti semitic hate crap and denying the holocaust, in the same way I wouldn't let anyone say the same crap about the Palestinians or anyone else for that matter. As much as it hurts my decency, frustrates my world view and pisses me off, I should not stop. Thank you Anamika.


Guido

"Yeah, right! And Hamas and Israel are going to kiss and make up."

NO and as long as this kind of anti semitic (yes the Palestinians are a semitic people too, in case you forget) shit keeps on being said, nothing will happen. So stop now!

Ruvy:

"- as it says in Psalm 58: the righteous shall rinse their feet in the blood of the evil ones."

Quoting from the scriptures won't get anyone anywhere. The Arabs too have their books and this can turn into a never ending sermon from hell. Suppose an Arab muslim said to you that he believes they will eventually win this war because it says in his book that:

"verily We have granted you (muhammad) a splendid Victory..."

Wouldn't you move heaven and hell to prove him wrong? So a little perspective is needed here. As long as you keep calling them 'bastards' you cant really blame them for calling Israel just that and much more. Relax.









#137
Ruvy
URL
January 8, 2009
04:54 AM

This analysis of events over the last three year or so by Ted Belman of Israpundit is worth taking a look at.

Everyone here, no matter what their views, acknowledges that Hamas was an elected regime. Everyone here, no matter what their views, acknowledges that outside powers have attempted to oust Hamas from the day it was clear that it had won a significant political position in relatively free and fair elections. Everyone here, no matter what their views, acknowledges that Gaza was taken over by Hamas in a coup d'état.

So, from the article linked to we see:

Coup

In June '07, US and Israel permitted Hamas to takeover Gaza in a coup. I even asked Did the U.S. order Abbas to take a dive?. Later I wrote US planned to defeat Hamas and included an article from The Guardian in which it suggested that the US forced Hamas to engineer the coup.

Many doubted my theory but events have proved it correct.

The reason behind these moves was to rend asunder the Hamas government enabling the Westbank first option and to delegitimate and dissolve such government. All this was a prelude to the current war. After winning the election, Hamas had to be gotten rid of.

Garth Porter in a current article in Asia Times, Bush plan beat obstacle to Gaza assault explained it thus

Until mid-2007, there was a serious political obstacle to a massive conventional war by Israel against Hamas in Gaza: the fact that Hamas had won free and fair elections for the Palestinian parliament and was still the leading faction in a fully legitimate government.

But the George W Bush administration helped Israel eliminate that obstacle, by deliberately provoking Hamas to seize power. That plan was aimed at getting Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to dissolve the democratically elected Hamas government - something Bush had tried unsuccessfully to do for many months.

Bush intended to build Fatah up to be able to take on Hamas but Abbas was a reluctant partner.

When Abbas negotiated a new agreement with Hamas in Mecca in February 2007 on a Palestinian unity government, the Bush administration responded by drafting a secret "action plan for the Palestinian presidency". The plan threatened that the "international community" would "no longer deal exclusively with the presidency" if it did not go along with US demands, and that "any countries in the EU and the G-8″ would "start looking for more credible interlocutors on the Palestinian side who can deliver on key issues of security and governance".

I highly recommend this article for the whole story.

Now, as the battle rages, Rice is at the forefront of demanding that Hamas be defeated. It is ironic that the architect of the Rafah Agreement and the Hamas election victory, should be the one to undo them.


I suggest going to the link to follow the embedded links within the article.

#138
Guido
January 8, 2009
05:27 AM

sarah islam,

"NO and as long as this kind of anti semitic (yes the Palestinians are a semitic people too, in case you forget) shit keeps on being said, nothing will happen. So stop now!

What are you talking about? So according to you this is anti-Semitic: "Yeah, right! And Hamas and Israel are going to kiss and make up."

If you'll take a moment and read the previous posts leading up to my comment, MAYBE you'll understand that 1) the comment was about CS and not any group, and 2) it was nothing more than a quip casting doubt on his commitment to stop blathering.

Perhaps if you would take the time to read and understand remarks in their intended context, you wouldn't be so quick to make such accusational asinine statements.

Ciao, Guido

#139
Ruvy
URL
January 8, 2009
05:38 AM

Sarah,

Note that I rarely ever use the term "anti-Semitic" because this argument - yes the Palestinians are a semitic people too, - is often used to confuse the issue.

I stick with the straight translation of the original German judenhass - Jew-hatred. It gets right to the point and cuts through all the bullshit.

#140
Ruvy
URL
January 8, 2009
08:04 AM

In this otherwise well written article, Jeff Jacoby, unfortunately, does us the term "anti-Semitism". His article would have been much stronger had he used the term "Jew-hatred".

Just a short quote from the end of it.

"Criticize Israel? Certainly. But those who so loudly denounce Israel in its war against Hamas are siding with some of the most virulent Jew-haters on earth. They may tell themselves that that doesn't make them anti-Semites. But it does. 'When people criticize Zionists,' Martin Luther King said in 1968, 'they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.'"

#141
Ruvy
URL
January 8, 2009
09:38 AM

Killing all the terrorists is a laudable goal. But the most important thing to do is to wipe out the nest for terrorism. This is UNRWA: Getting rid of UNRWA would be akin to destroying the madrassas in Pakistan (or elsewhere) that teach hatred of non-Moslems. This story at Arutz Sheva explains why.

Before anyone whines that "occupation is the cause of terror", rattling off a stack of $50 words that add up to "kill the Jews and there won't be Arab terror", let's be clear here. Israel's mere existence is the excuse for Arab terror and to the Arab terrorists, the secular shrimp eating Tel Avivian who hates "settlers" is just as much a "settler" as I am. And probably more detestable to the Arabs. The Arab terrorists will not rest until they have erased Israel from the map - or until they die. That is why they must die.

#142
commonsense
January 8, 2009
12:56 PM

Roane Carey (author of, with Jonathan Shainin, _The Other Israel: Voices of Refusal and Dissent_

"The current Gaza crisis is the culmination of more than two years of failed strategy, conceived and carried out jointly by the United States and Israel. The first mistake was their refusal to accept the results of the January 2006 Palestinian parliamentary elections, acknowledged by all observers to be free and fair. Hamas won that poll, but instead of engaging the new leadership--and testing its avowal that it would accept, if not applaud, a two-state resolution of the conflict--Israel, with US encouragement, cut off aid, tax revenues and, eventually, almost all connection with the outside world. The policy was brutal and straightforward: Gaza's 1.5 million citizens would be punished for electing leaders unacceptable to Tel Aviv and Washington. The next stage was to encourage a coup by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, despite Hamas's willingness to form a coalition with Abbas's Fatah faction. But Hamas struck first, overthrowing the corrupt and discredited PA in June 2007. Since then, Israel has tightened the siege on Gaza, leading the UN's human rights representative in the territories, Richard Falk, to accuse Israel of committing a "crime against humanity." Even former Mossad official Yossi Alpher said, "It's collective punishment, humanitarian suffering.... I think people really believed that if you starved Gazans, they will get Hamas to stop the attacks. It's repeating a failed policy, mindlessly."

#143
Anamika
January 8, 2009
01:15 PM

"The Arab terrorists will not rest until they have erased Israel from the map - or until they die. That is why they must die."

Aah! The 2009 Zionist version of the medieval European "witch test" - the one that had a "witch" thrown into deep water - he/she swam, it proved that they were a "witch" and were burnt at stake; if they drowned, well, that just proved they were innocent.

According to this logic its easy to figure out which "Arab" is a terrorist: If he/she dont grovel before Israelis, if he/she should dare to ask for a shred of human dignity, well that just proves they are terrorists.

Here goes a link to Sameh Habeeb's fotolog from inside Gaza for those who want to know WHO the terrorist of the future are as well as what makes them into terrorists:

http://picasaweb.google.com/sameh.habeeb

Check Habeeb's blog as well for citizen journalism from inside Gaza (Habeeb is just 23, a little kid, really):

http://gazatoday.blogspot.com/

#144
commonsense
January 8, 2009
01:30 PM

Sara Roy, writing just before the "an eye for an eyelash" Israeli collective punishment on Gaza. In the most recent issue of the _london review of books_

Sara Roy teaches Middle Eastern Studies at Harvard University:

"The breakdown of an entire society is happening in front of us, but there is little international response beyond UN warnings which are ignored. The European Union announced recently that it wanted to strengthen its relationship with Israel while the Israeli leadership openly calls for a large-scale invasion of the Gaza Strip and continues its economic stranglehold over the territory with, it appears, the not-so-tacit support of the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah - which has been co-operating with Israel on a number of measures. On 19 December Hamas officially ended its truce with Israel, which Israel said it wanted to renew, because of Israel's failure to ease the blockade.

How can keeping food and medicine from the people of Gaza protect the people of Israel? How can the impoverishment and suffering of Gaza's children - more than 50 per cent of the population - benefit anyone? International law as well as human decency demands their protection. If Gaza falls, the West Bank will be next."

#145
commonsense
January 8, 2009
01:39 PM

Huffingtonpost.com

UN halts Gaza aid shipments, cites Israeli attacks »

AP | IBRAHIM BARZAK and STEVE WEIZMAN | January 8, 2009 at 12:16 PM

JERUSALEM -- The U.N. halted deliveries to the Gaza Strip on Thursday after gunfire from an Israeli tank killed an aid truck driver, and the threat of a wider conflict arose when militants in Lebanon fired rockets into northern Israel.

#146
kerty
January 8, 2009
01:44 PM

Roane Carey: "The policy was brutal and straightforward: Gaza's 1.5 million citizens would be punished for electing leaders unacceptable to Tel Aviv and Washington."

Election of Hamas is like electing Osama - it sends an unmistakable message and response too would be swift and unequivocal. When you elect an organization that states wiping out Israel as its manifesto, what else would they expect from Israel but to cripple the monster in its tracts?

#147
kerty
January 8, 2009
01:56 PM

sara roy:How can the impoverishment and suffering of Gaza's children - more than 50 per cent of the population - benefit anyone?"

That is a good question that Hamas should answer. And people who use Palestinians as fodder for their Jehad against Israel. They have it within their powers to pursue peaceful course, but they choose Jehad instead. When have terrorists cared for innocents, women or children, be they their own or those of their enemies? They all are expendable martyrs for a Jehadi cause.

#148
kerty
January 8, 2009
02:06 PM

Anamika

"Sameh Habeeb's fotolog from inside Gaza for those who want to know WHO the terrorist of the future are as well as what makes them into terrorists"

We can count on root cause apologists to justify terrorists.

Terrorists exist because they want to wipe out Israel and there is no other way they can achieve that end. So dumping on Israeli reactions and fallout as the cause of terrorism is disingenious. It essentially creates evasive circular arguments, and a vicious cycle that creates no way out.

#149
kerty
January 8, 2009
02:13 PM

Anamika

"Sameh Habeeb's fotolog from inside Gaza for those who want to know WHO the terrorist of the future are as well as what makes them into terrorists"

We can count on root causes to justify terrorists.

Terrorists exist because they want to wipe out Israel and there is no other way they can achieve that end. So dumping on Israeli reactions and fallout as the cause of terrorism is disingenious. It essentially creates evasive circular arguments, and a vicious cycle that creates no way out.

#150
commonsense
January 8, 2009
02:17 PM

veteran AP journalist watches his own home in Gaza destroyed, via youtube!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-mitchell/ap-reporter-watches-own-h_b_156077.html

#151
Anamika
January 8, 2009
05:27 PM

"Gaza enters 2009 just as it did 2008: under Israeli fire. Between January and February of last year 140 Gazans died in air strikes. And just before it embarked on its failed military assault on Lebanon in July 2006, Israel rained thousands of shells on Gaza, killing 240. From Deir Yassin in 1948 to Gaza today, the list of Israel's crimes is long. The justifications change, but the reality is the same: colonial occupation, oppression, and never-ending injustice. If this is the "free world" whose "values" Israel is defending, as its foreign minister Tzipi Livni alleges, then we want nothing to do with it."

Khaled Mish'al writing in the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/06/gaza-israel-hamas

Only fair that if we hear Barak, Livni, Olmert and the entire brass band, we hear from the Hamas leadership as well!

#152
Anamika
January 8, 2009
05:29 PM

"Gaza enters 2009 just as it did 2008: under Israeli fire. Between January and February of last year 140 Gazans died in air strikes. And just before it embarked on its failed military assault on Lebanon in July 2006, Israel rained thousands of shells on Gaza, killing 240. From Deir Yassin in 1948 to Gaza today, the list of Israel's crimes is long. The justifications change, but the reality is the same: colonial occupation, oppression, and never-ending injustice. If this is the "free world" whose "values" Israel is defending, as its foreign minister Tzipi Livni alleges, then we want nothing to do with it."

Khaled Mish'al writing in the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/06/gaza-israel-hamas

Only fair that if we hear Barak, Livni, Olmert and the entire brass band, we hear from the Hamas leadership as well!

#153
Ruvy
URL
January 9, 2009
07:09 AM

With the war going on in Gaza, it's time to look at predictions, which seem bit by bit to be coming true. In the Book of Tz'fania, it is prophesied that Gaza will be forsaken, Ashkelon a desolation and they shall drive out Ashdod at noon.[Tz'fania 2:4]

Gaza is becoming forsaken - who wants to live under the bombs of Tzaha"l? Ashkelon is under attack, and will be under further attack. If the electric plant there is hit, or the chemical plants.... We'll see if massive missile or rocket barrages strike Ashdod in the near future.

But that's just a dusty old tome warning of destruction - a destruction that might not come just yet. Lets look at comment #48 from 30 July, at this article at Blogcritics, Barry Obama Loves the Jews - NOT!!, the one that points out that Obama emerged from the mire of Democratic unknowns in 2004 on Tish'á b'Av, a day of disaster for the Jewish people throughout history: "Here's a Geulá (redemption) prediction: Mister V (Obama) will negotiate (and be buddies) with Iran, Syria, and everyone else, and Israel will stand alone with no one to turn to but Hashem. I like Mister V because I'm looking forward to that day. Wait and see how emuná (faith) will win and reign. This is getting exciting."

Now let's look at the news. Obama to 'Open Channel of Communication' with Hamas

From the article:

According to three sources "close to the transition team," Obama was unlikely to approve direct talks with Hamas initially. However, reported the Guardian, Obama "is being urged by advisers to initiate low-level or clandestine approaches, and there is growing recognition in Washington that the policy of ostracizing Hamas is counterproductive. A tested course would be to start contacts through Hamas and the US intelligence services, similar to the secret process through which the US engaged with the PLO in the 1970s. Israel did not become aware of the contacts until much later."
This is an example of the "malicious intelligence" explained and referred to here.

As warned last June, Obama will be an enemy of the Jewish people: but the unmasking will not be immediate.

#154
Ruvy
URL
January 9, 2009
07:52 AM

Tamar Yonah, a radio show host on Arutz Sheva has a blog site where she posts various things. Lately, her topic has been, uh, the war in Gaza.

Any surprise?

I realize that most people reading DC don't give a crap, but it's worth posting anyway. Her latest posting deals with Kid Killers. I'll let you guess as to who she is referring to in her site. A hint: they are not Jews.

#155
Anamika
January 9, 2009
09:02 AM

Most recent news report on exactly WHO is killing children:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5480440.ece

#156
commonsense
January 9, 2009
09:23 AM

Robert Scheer:

"The Palestinians were in no position to confront the Israeli army, because those whose lands were not already occupied by Israel were living under oppressive Egyptian control in Gaza and tough Jordanian rule in the West Bank. After the speedy Israeli victory, which demolished the myth of the new state's vulnerability, the Palestinians became imprisoned as a people by Israel for crimes they had not committed.
Even if we accept the harshest portrayal of the tactics and motives of the Palestinian movements against Israel after the Six-Day War, at what point did that terrorism represent a serious challenge to the survival of the Jewish people or the state that claims to speak in their name? Yet that survival is invoked to justify the vastly excessive use of force by the Israeli war machine, with frequent allusions to the Holocaust previously visited upon the Jewish people, a holocaust that had nothing to do with Palestinians or Muslims, and everything to do with Central Europeans claiming to be Christians."

#157
commonsense
January 9, 2009
09:38 AM

Richard Falk in _The Nation_

""Earlier Israeli actions, specifically the complete sealing off of entry and exit to and from the Gaza Strip, have led to severe shortages of medicine and fuel (as well as food), resulting in the inability of ambulances to respond to the injured, the inability of hospitals to adequately provide medicine or necessary equipment for the injured, and the inability of Gaza's besieged doctors and other medical workers to sufficiently treat the victims.

Certainly the rocket attacks against civilian targets in Israel are unlawful. But that illegality does not give rise to any Israeli right, neither as the Occupying Power nor as a sovereign state, to violate international humanitarian law and commit war crimes or crimes against humanity in its response. I note that Israel's escalating military assaults have not made Israeli civilians safer; to the contrary, the one Israeli killed today after the upsurge of Israeli violence is the first in over a year.""

#158
Ruvy
URL
January 10, 2009
01:41 PM

a holocaust that had nothing to do with Palestinians or Muslims, and everything to do with Central Europeans claiming to be Christians.

The central figure in the Arab opposition to Jewish re-settlement in the Land of Israel (Mandate Palestine) was Amin el-Husseini, a Gazan Arab. This biography only scratches the surface of his ties to the Nazis.

This biography of the same "person" focuses in on where he got the ideas for genocide (his service in the Ottoman army helping to kill Armenians) as well as detailing more thoroughly his career in training Yassir Arafat. Husseini gave Hitler the nickname Abu Amar, indicating to other Arabs that he would kill off all the Jews. Arafat took the same nickname for himself - indicating to his followers that he would finish what Hitler started.

As if these historical records were not enough, various Arab terror groups use the Nazi Sieg und Heil salute.

But the cherry on the cake is the fact that Hitler's original plan for getting rid of us Jews was to concentrate us all in one place (Mandate Palestine) - and murder us all here.

From the site above:

Amin Al Husseini Meets Hitler in Berlin During WWII (Caption of Photo)

Hitler was reportedly content with deporting the Jews out of Europe to Palestine. Husseini perceived this as a threat to his stronghold in Palestine and pushed successfully for the extermination of the European Jews.


a holocaust that had nothing to do with Palestinians or Muslims, and everything to do with Central Europeans claiming to be Christians.

Another lie casually uttered in the propaganda war against Israel and Jews.

#159
commonsense
January 10, 2009
03:48 PM

Robert Dreyfuss writing in _The Nation_

"The vote in the UN Security Council yesterday, calling for a ceasefire in Gaza -- and pointedly not demanding an end to Hamas rocket fire as a condition for that ceasefire -- passed by an unanimous 14-0 vote. The important shift, undoubtedly brought about by Israel's killing of UN workers, Palestinian civilians, and high-profile attacks on schools and refuges, was by the United States, which abstained rather than veto the resolution. The Washington Post calls it a "sharp reversal" by the White House:


"The resolution demands an 'immediate, durable and fully respected cease-fire, leading to the full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza,' U.S. and Arab officials said. It marked a sharp reversal by the Bush administration, which had refused to allow passage of a cease-fire resolution without binding assurances that Hamas would halt its rocket attacks against Israel."

Eating humble pie, Palestine-style, Secretary of State Condi Rice -- who had earlier parroted the White House line that any ceasefire would have to be "sustainable and durable" and not a return to the "status quo" -- now says:


"We decided that this resolution -- the text of which we support, the goals of which we support and the objectives of which we fully support -- should indeed be allowed to go forward."

Link:

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/dreyfuss/395300?rel=hp_picks

#160
Ruvy
URL
January 10, 2009
04:00 PM

A Fight Broke Out Among Anti-War Demonstrators in Tel Aviv Saturday Night

From the article:

Several radical leftist groups, including members of the Hadash communist party, participated in the rally, and a fight broke out between Labor and Meretz activists and the radical leftists, who held signs accusing Defense Minister Ehud Barak of being a murderer. Peace Now chief Yariv Oppenheimer criticized the signs, saying that "this rally has many Zionists who are fearful of the fate of peace in the country."


Sometimes even the leftists here cannot stomach the Jew-hatred of the Arabs.

#161
commonsense
January 10, 2009
04:09 PM

For anyone seriously interested in the issue this is a good read. For those interested in continuing the "Jews" vs. "Muslims", "good" vs. "bad" guys, "devils" vs. "angels" etc. etc. or those who believe in so-called "revealed" scriptures for understanding non-revealed realities, please don't waste your time. They might be better off with the "chaney chabao, must raho" or "chew gum, don't worry, be happy"!

"The Great Middle East Peace Process Scam"

by Henry Siegman in the latest _London Review of Books_

Henry Siegman is director of the US/Middle East Project and a research professor at the Sir Joseph Hotung Middle East Programme at SOAS, University of London. He was a senior fellow on the Council on Foreign Relations from 1994 to 2006.

Link: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n16/sieg01_.html

Key Excerpt:

"The Middle East peace process may well be the most spectacular deception in modern diplomatic history...Clearly, the obstacle to resolving the Israel-Palestine conflict has not been a dearth of peace initiatives or peace envoys. Nor has it been the violence to which Palestinians have resorted in their struggle to rid themselves of Israel's occupation, even when that violence has despicably targeted Israel's civilian population. It is not to sanction the murder of civilians to observe that such violence occurs, sooner or later, in most situations in which a people's drive for national self-determination is frustrated by an occupying power. Indeed, Israel's own struggle for national independence was no exception...Underlying Israel's efforts to retain the occupied territories is the fact that it has never really considered the West Bank as occupied territory, despite its pro forma acceptance of that designation. Israelis see the Palestinian areas as 'contested' territory to which they have claims no less compelling than the Palestinians, international law and UN resolutions notwithstanding...This is a view that was made explicit for the first time by Sharon in an op-ed essay published on the front page of the New York Times on 9 June 2002. The use of the biblical designations of Judea and Samaria to describe the territories, terms which were formerly employed only by the Likud but are now de rigueur for Labour Party stalwarts as well, is a reflection of a common Israeli view. That the former prime minister Ehud Barak (now Olmert's defence minister) endlessly describes the territorial proposals he made at the Camp David summit as expressions of Israel's 'generosity', and never as an acknowledgment of Palestinian rights, is another example of this mindset. Indeed, the term 'Palestinian rights' seems not to exist in Israel's lexicon....The problem is not, as Israelis often claim, that Palestinians do not know how to compromise. (Another former prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, famously complained that 'Palestinians take and take while Israel gives and gives.') That is an indecent charge, since the Palestinians made much the most far-reaching compromise of all when the PLO formally accepted the legitimacy of Israel within the 1949 armistice border. With that concession, Palestinians ceded their claim to more than half the territory that the UN's partition resolution had assigned to its Arab inhabitants...If the US and its allies were to take a stand forceful enough to persuade Israel that it will not be allowed to make changes to the pre-1967 situation except by agreement with the Palestinians in permanent status negotiations, there would be no need for complicated peace formulas or celebrity mediators to get a peace process underway. The only thing that an envoy such as Blair can do to put the peace process back on track is to speak the truth about the real impediment to peace. This would also be a historic contribution to the Jewish state, since Israel's only hope of real long-term security is to have a successful Palestinian state as its neighbour.""


#162
commonsense
January 10, 2009
04:21 PM

The American administration does not need Israel's permission to do what it sees fit when it comes to looking out for its interests, even though Ruvy thinks it needs to do exactly that.

#163
commonsense
January 10, 2009
04:24 PM

Ruvy:

""He [Obama]will most assuredly open talks with Hamas behind Israel's back. He will negotiate with Iran, also behind everyone's back. After what he deems a suitable time period, he will adopt an openly hostile anti-Israel stance."

To involve all the major players for a workable solution, is not an "openly hostile anti-Israeli stance". Quite the opposite. To ignore the problem by giving Israeli politicians a blank check, is an "openly hostile anti-Israeli stance".

#164
Ruvy
URL
January 10, 2009
04:33 PM

The American administration does not need Israel's permission to do what it sees fit when it comes to looking out for its interests, even though Ruvy thinks it needs to do exactly that.

I could care less what the U.S. administration does. But I am telling you all in plain English, that Obama will imitate the Carter appeasement of the Arabs, offering what is not his to give (like part of Jerusalem), and Obama, like Carter, will fail - miserably.

That's when things will really get interesting around here.

#165
commonsense
January 10, 2009
04:44 PM

Ruvy:

"But I am telling you all in plain English, that Obama will imitate the Carter appeasement of the Arabs, offering what is not his to give (like part of Jerusalem), and Obama, like Carter, will fail - miserably."

Obama should reverse course completely from the Bush doctrine. If he sticks to his resolve, he and the whole world will be winners.

The only folks who will feel unappeased will be those who occupy illegal lands, quote so-called "revealed" texts to justify their delusions, and actually believe that the country that has supported them all through, with a blank check ie. the US, is actually their enemy. Talk of gratitude!

Ruvy:
"That's when things will really get interesting around here."

Interesting is a mild word to describe the reception you will receive when you are uprooted from the settlements and have to face "your people" or the Israelis, most of whom despise the settlers as "useles idiots"

#166
commonsense
January 10, 2009
04:47 PM

Oops! I'm actually arguing again with Ruvy??

Chandra, you still lurking? Final proof that I am indeed pea-brained!!

#167
commonsense
January 10, 2009
05:24 PM

Editorial in this week's _The Nation_

www.thenation.com

"The contours of a just peace have been well known to all the players for years. It involves a firm Israeli commitment to withdraw to its 1967 borders, with at most minor and mutually agreed on adjustments; a Palestinian state in the territories with sovereignty over East Jerusalem; and a fair and agreed on resolution of the refugee question. If Israel were to commit itself to such a plan, it would see Palestinian support for armed attacks dry up, as the Palestinian public overwhelmingly favors such a two-state solution. The Arab world does too, as evidenced by the Arab League Peace Initiative of 2002, since reiterated, which adheres to the same principles and offers full recognition of Israel upon acceptance. But as Henry Siegman pointed out in the last issue of The Nation, Israel desperately needs strong leadership from Washington to take the risk for peace. If Obama doesn't take concerted action quickly, the hope for a two-state solution will fade, and the region will be cursed with many more years of bloodshed."

#168
Ruvy
URL
January 10, 2009
05:56 PM

Mandate Palestine was set up in 1920 with borders that included all of Israel and the Kingdom of Jordan. The British set up an Arab state within that Mandate in 1922. And we have a Jewish state. There is no need for two Arab states to be carved out of the Palestine Mandate. One is sufficient.

All this talk of a "just peace" from sources incessantly quoted like The Nation is just a pack of garbage. What would result if such idiocy were to be implemented would be neither just nor peace.

At the end of the day, there will be peace - but it will only come after a terrible bloodbath. There will be NO Arab state in Judea and Samaria. There may yet be one in Jordan. But the immediate future of this neighborhood is war, not peace, and when it is over the thugs from the PLO, FataH and Hamas will all be history. The PA will be history - gone forever. There will be a Jewish Entity of some sort - and it may not be called the State of Israel.

Finally, foreign nations, liked the United States, Russia, China, or the "EU" will no longer have the power to intervene in affairs in this part of the world and to foment war and misery as they have done for more that two centuries running.

#169
Ruvy
URL
January 10, 2009
06:10 PM

IDF: More than 300 Hamas Terrorists Killed Over the Past Week

The price of killing these Hamas terrorists was too high. Too much ordnance was used. But there is no use crying over spilt milk or spent ordance. One has to hope and pray that events force a change in this attitude the idea is not to reoccupy the Gaza Strip. Such attitudes undermine the morale of our soldiers and make it seem that their sacrifices are for nought.

#170
kerty
January 10, 2009
07:37 PM

Editorial in this week's The Nation:

"If Israel were to commit itself to such a plan, it would see Palestinian support for armed attacks dry up, as the Palestinian public overwhelmingly favors such a two-state solution. The Arab world does too"

How would it be any different or better than 2-nation solution that created Pakistan? As if creation of one Pakistan has worked out so well, why repeat same blunders? Isn't it a slap on the face of India which is taking its case against Pakistan to international? Perhaps they see triumphalism in tying India's hands from going after Pakistan even after Pakistan has been launching countless terror attacks upon India - they want to implement the same Jehadi model against Israel.

#171
commonsense
January 10, 2009
07:56 PM

Some heartening developments, within the Jewish community

from The Nation:

"J Street, the new Washington lobby that brands itself as "the political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement," has called for an immediate cease-fire and in general set itself up as a counter to the right-wing AIPAC lobby and its Christian Zionist allies. J Street is joined by other good activist groups, such as Americans for Peace Now and Jewish Voice for Peace. Most of Congress has been shamefully quiescent, but Representative Dennis Kucinich has spoken out courageously against the violence, as have several other members lauded by J Street. And on the first day of Israel's ground invasion, 10,000 Israelis took part in a massive peace demonstration."

#172
kerty
January 10, 2009
08:19 PM

J street is a group that promotes 2-nation-theory, whereby it actively aids and abets anti-israel groups in Middle East.


J Street: An Anti-Israel Group
Noah Pollak
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/pollak/48751
(The comments following Noah's commentary are informative)

#173
commonsense
January 10, 2009
08:30 PM

NYT 10 Jan:

"Red Cross workers said their telephones were flooded with calls from residents of the Beach refugee camp who had received large numbers of the calls and leaflets. The callers wanted to know if they should evacuate their homes, and if so, to where.

A Beach camp car mechanic named Hamdi Eki, 47, was asked why he did not leave after receiving such a call. "I have nine children," he said. "Where can I go? I prefer to die at my own house."

Some Beach camp residents did leave but ended up in other neighborhoods or camps that had received similar warnings.

Israel has come under increasing international criticism for the growing number of civilian casualties of this war and for complicating efforts by aid and rights groups to help those caught in the cross-fire. Israel says Hamas fighters hide consciously among civilians, in mosques and schools and under clinics."

#174
Anamika
January 10, 2009
08:38 PM

"How would it be any different or better than 2-nation solution that created Pakistan? "

Because Palestinians are not trying to break away from state/society to form a "separate" nation. All they want is to be treated as humans on the land that they were born on.

Because the 2-state solution is not the divide and rule end-game of the colonizer as they leave the land. Instead, the Palestinians shall end up with most of their land lost and colonized and settling on the littlest possible bit...but at least under the 2-state solution, they will be recognised as human!

Because their land has been occupied and that is NOT the same case as India-Pakistan in 1947 which actually received their land BACK from the occupiers.

Simple! READ YOUR HISTORY!

#175
kerty
January 10, 2009
10:30 PM

Anamika

"Because Palestinians are not trying to break away from state/society to form a "separate" nation. All they want is to be treated as humans on the land that they were born on."

That still does not set Palestinians apart from Paki Jehadis seeking a separate state of their own. Jehadis who wanted Pakistan too were born on the land they demanded to be separate from rest of state/society.

"Because the 2-state solution is not the divide and rule end-game of the colonizer as they leave the land."

Colonizer's divide-rule end-game would be relevant only if colonizer was seeking to rule and capture that land thru such tactics. In case of India-Pakistan, colonizer was actually leaving the land and not seeking to rule. So this argument does not hold water. One can't keep evading the reality by scapegoating parting colonizers - that 2 nation theory is the Jehadi tactic and not a colonial divide and rule tactic. And it has been born out by 60 years of India's experience after colonizers have long left.

"Instead, the Palestinians shall end up with most of their land lost and colonized"

When did Palestinians ever had their own land? They have always lived under different empires thru out history. How can Palestinians claim something that was never theirs?

Did land that India gave to Pakistan belonged to Pakistanis? Nope. Bulk of it was owned by Hindus at the time of partition, and historically, all of it was owned by Hindus. Yet, 2-nation theory had no problem with such realities. If anything, 2-nation theory is another name for Jehadi land grab.


"at least under the 2-state solution, they will be recognised as human!"

What makes you so sure that they want to be humans and not Jehadis? What makes you so sure that they do not want to use 2-nation theory to gain foothold so that they can be more effective in their jehad to wipe out Israel? Has creation of Pakistan reduced the grievances of Jehadis, or rather gave more teeth to their Jehad? In fact, creation of Pakistan has taken away all options to deal with Jehad in the region, thereby creating virtual immunity for jehadis. Isn't that the real endgame behind implanting same 2-nation theory in Israel?

"Because their land has been occupied and that is NOT the same case as India-Pakistan in 1947 which actually received their land BACK from the occupiers."

India was not occupied by British. Indian Land was not taken away by British, so the issue of returning the land from occupiers did not arise. India was ruled by British but India's land was still inhabitated by Indians. Indians were denied their own self-rule and their own nation/state, that is all. And that is what Indians got it back in 1947.

Secondly, land in question is not occupied land, because that land was never owned by Palestinains. By claiming that Israelis are illegal occupiers, you are making a jehadi case for removing Israel.

#176
Ruvy
URL
January 11, 2009
12:40 AM

Some heartening developments, within the Jewish community

from The Nation:

"J Street, the new Washington lobby that brands itself as "the political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement,"


I suppose Benedict Arnold was a heartening development for the American revolutionary movement, and Vikdun Qvisling a heartening development for the Norwegians in WWII. I hesitate to make an analogy in Indian society.

Ah joy! Heartening developments all around!

With every rocket the Arabs fling at Beersheva or Ashkelon, they reduce these heartening developments. If they attack and hit Tel Aviv, there will be no more peace demonstrations.

I'd much prefer if all these overseas rags like "The Nation" concerned themselves with the problems of their own societies instead of arrogantly trying to tell us what to do.

#177
commonsense
January 11, 2009
01:58 AM

Ruvy:

"I'd much prefer if all these overseas rags like "The Nation" concerned themselves with the problems of their own societies instead of arrogantly trying to tell us what to do."

barely seven years ago, our "friend" (so-to-speak) was a citzen of the same "overseas" country he now views as an enemy. He probably is still an American, albeit with false pretences of being more Israeli than realy Israelis...the fanatical zealousy of the newly converted indeed, and the usual sin of arrogantly biting the hand that still feeds him, ie. his own country, the U S of A.

#178
Anamika
January 11, 2009
07:13 AM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-cohen/mitchell-bard-is-wrong-on_b_156130.html

"A grievous crime was committed against Palestinians when their land was forcefully taken from them in 1948. They had committed no crimes against Jews, and were not consulted when their land was given away. European nations had systematically slaughtered Jews for centuries, then laid the burden on the Palestinians, a fact that the West would rather forget. The Palestinians will never get their land back, just as Native Americans won't get theirs. But at least we can acknowledge what has happened to them, and work seriously for a lasting solution. The Palestinians are an oppressed people, and to blame them for their own predicament is simply inexcusable."

#179
Ruvy
URL
January 11, 2009
07:20 AM

While others elsewhere post continuous anti-Israel screed and after anti-Israel screed, it falls to this Jew from Samaria to post NEWS.

Ehud Olmert, the brave "crime minister" of Israel, a tragic figure who will one day be forced from office, strapped on his plastic testicles and condemned international calls for restraint on the part of his government in prosecuting the military campaign in Gaza.

If it weren't for the fact that this war is being used to boost the votes that Kadima (and Labor) will receive in soon to be held elections here, I would admire the man. But the truth of the matter is that he is using the lives and blood of the IDF to do his campaigning for him.

That is almost as cowardly as Arab terrorists hiding behind women and children hoping that Israelis will not attack them.

He does this much better when he is staining the honor of the IDF and the Israel Police to beat up Jews and expel them from their homes; but that won't win him votes.

The other point here is that the longer this war goes on, the longer he will not face criminal prosecution for theft, and the longer he will avoid sitting in jail.

#180
Slime_id
January 11, 2009
07:59 AM

LK Advani on Hindutva


http://www.lkadvani.in/eng/content/view/378/344/
'WHO ARE WE?'

The debate on the two issues, namely, minoritysm and pseudo-secularism, cannot be complete or effective without an elucidation of the concept of Hindutva. It is not the ideology of a particular political party simply because the BJP is the only national party to have never shied away from espousing it.

Throughout my political life, I have emphasised that Hindutva stands for cultural nationalism, and does not denote religious or theocratic nationalism. The term 'Hindu' in Hindutva has a cultural, and not a religious connotation. It does not lend itself to a narrow 'for-Hindus-only' notion of Indian nationhood, which stems essentially from an underlying cultural oneness. Some of us call this sense of nationhood, Hindutva; Pandit Deendayal Upadhyaya called it Bharatiyata. Some others may call it Indianness. I see no difference between the three terms; they are interchangeable. I, therefore, feel sad when Hindutva is misrepresented and maligned, mostly by Marxist Hindus who are ashamed of calling themselves Hindu.

#181
Slime_id
January 11, 2009
08:28 AM

LD Adavni on
Two long-festering conflicts in Asia

http://www.lkadvani.in/eng/content/view/202/

Unfortunately, several long-festering conflicts in Asia have been sustained, and have eluded a satisfactory solution, because of the interplay between western strategies of global domination in conflict-zones, where the conflicts are in turn exacerbated by certain intolerant, violent, hegemonistic ideologies that have originated in Asia itself.
Two prime examples of this are the conflicts in West Asia and South Asia . Palestine must get independent statehood and, at the same time, Israel 's right to exist must be unequivocally recognized by all its neighbours. Those who say that Israel should be wiped off the map of the world are a threat to regional and world peace, even though their voice emanates from within Asia itself.

Similarly, closer home, we have witnessed the tragedy of Afghanistan , where the forces stoking the fires of religious extremism and global domination have harmed India , too. The trouble began in 1979 with the invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union , which the then government of India should have condemned strongly and categorically. Afghanistan then became a victim of the Cold War rivalry between the then two superpowers, with Pakistan trying to take advantage of the conflict for its own narrow geo-political ambitions. Since then, the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan , and the Soviet Union itself disintegrated. But Afghanistan continues to be a zone of war, because it was converted into a sanctuary of jehadi terrorism, with disastrous consequences for all those who gave birth to this Bhasmasur.

The latest victim of this Bhasmasur was Ms. Benazir Bhutto in Pakistan . We must remember that her assassination in a terrorist attack took place in the context of the Pakistani people's aspiration for the establishment of an effective and stable democratic system. I had commented then, and also on the earlier occasion when she escaped an assassination bid on the day she returned from her exile (when 125 persons were killed in a terrorist attack on her convoy), that, in Pakistan, the struggle for democracy and the struggle against terrorism inspired by religious extremism cannot be separated.

The developments in Pakistan should prompt us to recognize a disturbing trend: The term 'democracy' is being manipulated in international relations discourse to suit the self-serving purpose of preserving one's global domination and preserving one's "spheres of influence". All of us know that intolerant and extremist religious ideologies are being exported out of certain countries in Asia which are far from being democratic. Nevertheless, they are tolerated by those proclaiming to be defenders of freedom and democracy worldwide. This self-deception will prove costly to its practitioners and to the world at large.

#182
kerty
January 11, 2009
08:56 AM

Hamas Is Responsible for Civilian Casualties in Gaza
Mitchell Bard

"anyone who supports Hamas in the current conflict with Israel does not believe that Israel has a right to exist."

The full article
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mitchell-bard/hamas-is-responsible-for_b_155261.html

#183
commonsense
January 11, 2009
12:56 PM

Ruvy:

"While others elsewhere post continuous anti-Israel screed and after anti-Israel screed, it falls to this Jew from Samaria to post NEWS."

People entrusted with a divine mandate to occupy the Promised Land, need news? That is news indeed!

#184
Ruvy
URL
January 11, 2009
07:09 PM

"commonsense" writes, People entrusted with a divine mandate to occupy the Promised Land, need news?

Actually, we don't. YOU DO.

#185
Ruvy
URL
January 11, 2009
07:13 PM

"anyone who supports Hamas in the current conflict with Israel does not believe that Israel has a right to exist."

Quoted for truth.

And now, Hamas, in its own words

Enjoy!

#186
commonsense
January 11, 2009
07:39 PM

Ruvy:

"anyone who supports Hamas in the current conflict with Israel does not believe that Israel has a right to exist."

And Ruvy believes that there is no such thing as the palestinian people. spot the difference!

#187
Ruvy
URL
January 11, 2009
11:48 PM

This article from my blogsite makes clear why Jews overseas need to come home - to Israel. Moslems have spread all over the world, and are working themselves up into a lather of rage. If they work themselves into enough of a lather of rage, there will be a pogrom. It's easier to defend yourself from a pogrom here than in New York.

#188
Ledzius
January 12, 2009
03:52 AM

Ruvy 187 - It seems that ME Muslims, wherever they are, seem to have complete disregard for the laws of the land. Please also read this article (not mine) -
http://desicritics.org/2006/01/31/071427.php

#189
Anamika
January 12, 2009
06:17 AM

"What has made the issue even more murky - as Conor Gearty, professor of human rights law at the LSE has noted - is the way in which terrorism is less and less regarded as a "technique", albeit a horrible one, in pursuit of a political agenda. Instead, it has been deliberately redefined, largely by states, to mean a "category of person" - making it easy to ignore the underlying causes while concentrating on the acts."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/12/gaza-palestine-israel-peter-beaumont

#190
commonsense
January 12, 2009
10:00 AM

just as Ledzius completely disregards his own brains, regardless of the topic he happens to comment on. produce some hinnys and mares dude.

#191
commonsense
January 12, 2009
10:06 AM

Peter Rothberg in The Nation on the muzzled media in Gaza:

"As America's leaders knew at least as far back as Thomas Jefferson, a functioning media is critical to the informed citizenry necessary for a working democracy. That was the partial basis of the Israeli high court ruling on December 31 directing the Israeli government to allow foreign media into Gaza, where it has so far prevented all reporters from visiting since it commenced bombing raids nine days ago.

The decision by the High Court came in response to a petition by the Israeli Foreign Press Association, which represents more than 400 members from the world's leading international print and electronic media. The association, composed of media outfits across the political spectrum, called the ban "an unprecedented restriction of press freedom" on Israel's part.

The Israeli High Court specifically ruled that the Israeli government should allow a press pool of at least twelve foreign journalists into the Gaza Strip. The government countered that it will allow eight reporters into Gaza every time it opens the border at the Erez crossing, but so far the crossing has remained completely closed to entry."

#192
Ruvy
URL
January 13, 2009
06:22 PM

WATCH THIS VIDEO MADE BY AN ARAB ON YOU TUBE - BEFORE IT GETS PULLED. IT SAYS ALL THAT NEEDS TO BE SAID ABOUT ARAB CULTURE - MORE THAN THIS JEW CAN SAY, CERTAINLY.

#193
smallsquirrel
January 13, 2009
07:19 PM

oh I watched it alright. it's an israeli propaganda video. LOL. how laughable.

(goes off to make dinner calmly singing Allah Ke Bande by Kailash Kher... which strangely fit this whole situation...)

#194
Ledzius
January 14, 2009
12:36 AM

SS, you are happily in denial mode. In Kashmir, a militant outfit made it compulsory for Muslim women to wear the burkha or have acid thrown on their faces.
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/states/jandk/terrorist_outfits/lashkar-e-jabbar.htm

More recently, in the Afghan border areas of Pakistan, the Taliban have banned video stores, and destroyed more than 165 schools and colleges in NWFP -- the majority of them for girls. Read-

http://www.rferl.org/content/Worries_In_Pakistan_That_Taliban_Imposing_Parallel_Government/1367060.html

Not too far off from the video, is it?

Funny you mention Allah Ke Bande, which has the guy singing while playing the guitar. Do you know that absolutely no music instruments (other than the hand drum, under very limited occasions) is allowed by Islam? The guy is obviously violating Islamic laws, and extremists would gun him down for that. Such is the contradiction that exists within Islam, a religion which can never come to terms with modern civilized society.

#195
Ledzius
January 14, 2009
12:46 AM

SS, even assuming the video in question was Israeli propaganda, I doubt the first footage of Hamas militants crashing into the wedding and killing people was staged. And if you really LOL after watching that, I don't know what else to say.

#196
soomro
January 14, 2009
04:08 AM

the Palestinians should be angry at their Arab neighbors for not taming the Israelians decades ago.

i dont know whats wrong with Iran. why would people oppose if Iran tried to support the Palestinians by killing Israelian soldiers. although rite noe Iran is not that strong military wise but it will soon acquire nukes and one threat of a nuclear strike can go a long way up the land-grabbing ones. a strong nuclear armed anti-Zionist country is important for good balance in the ME.

but goody good people wont understand this. they will always say Iran is axis of evil. its evil because its against the land-grabbing ones. and look what the zionist land grabbers have done now....killed 1000+ people.

i think even Hezbollah would be justified in intervening and making things difficult for the Zionist land-grabbers.

Yehud olmerstien should be tried for war crimes.

oops..sorry for this politically incorrect rant.
in these days of political correctness if you say anything against Israelian policies you are automatically branded an anti-Semite neo-Nazi.

#197
Ruvy
URL
January 14, 2009
06:02 AM

Soomro,

the Palestinians should be angry at their Arab neighbors for not taming the Israelians decades ago.

So sorry we survived. We intend to remain "untamed" for quite some time. ;o))

I'll skip over your Jew-hating rant to get to the one point we agree on 100% - Ehud Olmert ought to hung - for treason. Let's add to the list, a list I'm sure you will enjoy reading.

Shimon Peres
Ehud Barak
Tzipora Livni
Aharon Barak
Menny Mazuz
Avi Dichter
Benyamin Netanyahu

That is just the short list, the one that comes to mind immediately. You see, I think as highly of the regime on Government Hill in Jerusalem as you do.

#198
Ruvy
URL
January 14, 2009
06:10 AM

SS, you are happily in denial mode.

Tragic, but too true. I'll not detail the tragic results of living in denial. For my own family, one word suffices.

Treblinka.

#199
smallsquirrel
January 14, 2009
07:08 AM

Ledzius, I am laughing not at the tragedy of what occurred but because we have no idea WHAT we're looking at. Those could be Israeli soldiers. The footage is taken from so far away, and we cannot see clearly anything that is happening. The commentator is clearly also Israeli, so really, I do not trust it. It is footage of something, and what that something is, is really quite unclear.

and really we're not talking about all the rest of the issues caused by islamists. but clearly you just pass judgment by making big, indiscriminate thought piles. and you're oh so wrong about the musical instruments... but again, you clearly just define your own truths, truth be damned.

#200
Ruvy
URL
January 14, 2009
07:49 AM

The commentator is clearly also Israeli, so really, I do not trust it.

For a woman who studied linguistics, smallsquirrel is falling down on the job.

That accent is the accent of an Arab, not an Israeli accent of any variety. More to the point, in attempting to talk English, the locutions used are not those of an Israeli. Such locutions slip in like burglars slip into to a crowd at an open air market - a shouk.

It is not the accent of a local Arab, one born in Israel. It might the accent of a man from Egypt or Lebanon - the man speaking is a Christian - and he does have it in for the liars of the Husseinis who have tried to fabricate out of whole cloth a "Palestinian" nationality to market an ideology of exterminating Jews.

The young lady should stick to the languages she does know.

#201
soomro
January 14, 2009
08:29 AM

Ruvy


where the hell have i said anything anti-Jew. just tell me. anything against Israel and youre automatically a Jew hater WTF is that?

and stop that victim BS
"so sorry we survivied"
you say anything against Israel and they have to bring the holocaust in and say we have been victimized for centuries. talk about rite now.

#202
Ruvy
URL
January 14, 2009
09:22 AM

Soomro,

where the hell have i said anything anti-Jew. just tell me. Anything against Israel and you're automatically a Jew hater? WTF is that?

Let me try to help you out here, because obviously, you are not Jewish.

The centrality of my identity, and the identity of every believing Jew is that we are THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. Now there are Jews who will say that they are "culturally Jewish" or "ethnically Jewish" and who will deny the centrality of Israel to their identity. One such person comments here. But if you examine their ideas, you will rapidly find that they do not believe in Jewish law, and do not follow a lot of it for one reason or another.

The land I live in belongs to us under one of two theories; one is international law (a nice term for law of the jungle) which, in the Resolutions on Palestine adopted on 24-25 April 1920 in San Remo Italy, grant the Jewish People sovereignty over all the the Land of Israel in perpetuity. The second arises from the Torah and its corresponding verses in the Qur'an, which do the same, but under a Grant from G-d not to the Jewish People, but to the Children of Israel. I'm not fussy as to which one is used, but either way THIS COUNTRY BELONGS TO US.

Our culture is centered around Israel. We pray facing Jerusalem; we desire to rebuild out Temple here. About one third of the laws we follow can only be followed here.

Bottom line. You attack Israel, you attack Jews.

That is exactly what you did.

the Palestinians should be angry at their Arab neighbors for not taming the Israelians decades ago. Our Arab cousins, when they denounce us, tend to scream mawt al-yahud! "death to the Jews!" What do you think "taming the Israelians" really means?

#203
commonsense
January 14, 2009
09:43 AM

Just in case one is still wondering if it is rational to argue with Ruvy:

Ruvy in his own words:

The land I live in belongs to us under one of two theories...The second arises from the Torah and its corresponding verses in the Qur'an, which do the same, but under a Grant from G-d not to the Jewish People, but to the Children of Israel. I'm not fussy as to which one is used, but either way THIS COUNTRY BELONGS TO US.""

Amen

#204
soomro
January 14, 2009
12:01 PM

ruvy

whatever. nobody is interested in whats written in Torah or Quran here. you just sound like a bigot.

Israel is a country just like India or Pakistan. these days due to the mumbai attacks the anti pakistan sentiment is increasing in india. a lot of indians hate pakistan. similary a lot of pakistanis hate india. a lot of muslim people all over the world hate US and its policies it adopted after 911.

does that mean the Indians hate Muslims. does that mean they hate the people of Pakistan for their race. its got nothing to do with racism.

i said "arabs should have tamed israel" as i was referring to the war in the 70's. didnt Israel TAME egypt and other neighbors for its own interests. every country in ME that could be a threat to israel was systematically 'tamed' be it Saudi Arabia, lybia, iraq and now iran. its all politics. its all about interests.

and where was this identity of yours before 1920. the jews kept buying land and declared an independent state...good for them. now dont grab more of it and give the Palestinians their land according to the UN agreement.

by the way the people of your holy land are playing dirty games too. they tinkered with Russias ass when they trained and supplied Georgian army. watch out for Russians as they try to harm Israels interests and dont forget to declare them hitler loving neo nazi anti-semite.

#205
smallsquirrel
January 14, 2009
12:15 PM

ruvy, how dare you bandy about the names of concentration camps in order to play intellectual one-upsmanship with me. that is sick and foul and uncalled for. my relatives also died in concentration camps but that does not entitle either one of us to act like utter animals.

Anti-semitism thy name is Reuven.

#206
kerty
January 14, 2009
12:40 PM

Soomro

"nobody is interested in whats written in Torah or Quran here"

What makes you so sure? What about people who do care about what is written there and are motivated based on it? Does it not amount to denying the reality of their existence and living in denial? Yes. Call them bigots, if that makes you feel good about living in denial.

"its all politics. its all about interests."

What makes you so sure? Those politics and interests are driven by certain motivations, by underlying imperatives, and they can be driven by religious considerations, don't you think that is possible or relevant in conflicts with Islamists? The politics and interest can be waged by pragmatic or secular means but motivations can be entirely religious, do you deny the possibility of it?

#207
Slime_id
January 14, 2009
12:47 PM

Ruvy,

what r the war updates on Hamas military capabilities. Are they still holed in tunnels fed by baked potatoes?

Hamas needs to bleed for their jihadi(hijda) asses were born to be baked.

#208
Ruvy
URL
January 14, 2009
01:55 PM

Soomro,

Some "commenter" above decided to twist my words - so pay attention.

The land I live in belongs to us under one of two theories; one is international law (a nice term for law of the jungle) which, in the Resolutions on Palestine adopted on 24-25 April 1920 in San Remo Italy, grant the Jewish People sovereignty over all the the Land of Israel in perpetuity. The second arises from the Torah and its corresponding verses in the Qur'an, which do the same, but under a Grant from G-d not to the Jewish People, but to the Children of Israel. I'm not fussy as to which one is used, but either way THIS COUNTRY BELONGS TO US.

If you don't care about the Torah of the Qur'an, fine. Then this land belongs to us by virtue of the Resolutions on Palestine adopted on 24-25 April 1920 in San Remo Italy, which grants the Jewish People sovereignty over all the the Land of Israel in perpetuity. The UN resolution "partitioning" this nation GA Res. 181 - is a usurpation of that sovereignty, and the 1967 war ended its legitimacy. Similarly, Ga Res. 282 is a usurpation of Jewish sovereignty granted in perpetuity in 1920.

I'm not talking about some shmendrik running around with a fat wallet buying land - I'm talking about sovereignty - the right to rule. And ALL of the resolutions of the UN are illegal, and worth less than the toilet paper I use.

The "Palestinians" have their country already; it consists of 77% of the territory designated as part of Mandate Palestine, and is known as Jordan. The treaty signed with Jordan in 1995 constitutes estoppel, a concept of contract law, and the State of Israel can no longer claim that 77% as hers.

Therefore, there is already a "two-state" solution in existence. The question is how to make it work so that all the residents in the Land of Israel - Mandate Palestine - live in peace. That will not be accomplished by Arab terror and will not be accomplished by Jews surrendering their right to rule.

As for a third state in Judea and Samaria, the Arabs do not need one, and it is not a practicable solution to providing a prosperous existence for those Arabs, or an avenue for their legitimate desires to express themselves as a nation, or even peace.

Attempting to create e second Arab state in what was Mandate Palestine will only guarantee war - and war will only guarantee the power of those who sell the weapons to the peoples killing each other off.

If I were in the business of selling guns, I would be pushing a "Palestinian mini-state" and looking forward to the profits to be gained. But I'm not.

Are you?

Go re-read Kerty's comment. He makes good points that you need to understand.

#209
Ruvy
URL
January 14, 2009
02:22 PM

Slime_id,


what r the war updates on Hamas military capabilities. Are they still holed in tunnels fed by baked potatoes?


Go have a look at where I get my news from. I haven't had a chance to read this all day....

#210
commonsense
January 14, 2009
03:12 PM

SS:

"Anti-semitism thy name is Reuven."

Good one! Applause, albeit for such a tragic human being.

#211
commonsense
January 14, 2009
03:15 PM

Ruvy:

""Therefore, there is already a "two-state" solution in existence."'

excellent! Problem? what problem??

#212
commonsense
January 14, 2009
03:31 PM



Ruvy:

""Therefore, there is already a "two-state" solution in existence."

how come somebody else has the "slimy id" nick?? oops, he's actually "slime id" so i guess ruvy can have "slimy id"

#213
commonsense
January 14, 2009
09:00 PM

By Anat Biletzki in _the nation_

"I write as an Israeli.

As to indiscriminate bombing and shelling, we are fed the constant diet of "collateral damage," as if killing of civilians (now estimated as most of the dead, with over half being women and children) can be so effortlessly explained or excused. So, on the one hand, Israel is touted as having amazingly sophisticated methods of targeting while, on the other, it is facilely pardoned for missing the targets. The adage of collateral damage goes a long way--as long as sixteen people, most of them women and children, dying when one Hamas leader is targeted and killed; or forty people seeking shelter in a UN school. And note: in order to count as a bona fide civilian, in order not to be a legitimate target, a person living in Gaza mustn't be in the police force, in a university, in a mosque, or in a hospital run by the Gazan authorities. So indiscriminate is Operation Cast Lead that several Israeli human rights groups and organizations have mounted a wide campaign, crying "Civilians Are Not Cannon Fodder." Neither in Gaza nor in Israel. But that impartiality between Gaza and Israel brings us back to comparing the numbers. Over 900 people, out of a population of 1.5 million, have been killed in Gaza. That is equivalent to 180,000 Americans being killed--in two weeks.

Contrary to what one hears in the mainstream media, which adopts the conventional wisdom pitting all critiques of Israel as venomously pro-Palestinian--in Israel even as a fifth column--these are Israelis (and Jews) who know the unconventional facts. They are marginalized in the current Israeli ecstasy of battle; and ignored by the mainstream media.

I write as an Israeli. Some of us, as Israelis, are grieving over what we have become. Blaming the other side with a roster of rehearsed clichés cannot mitigate the grief."

#214
SanjayTheAtheist
January 14, 2009
10:09 PM

I wanted to post what I thought was an impressive display of nerve by an Israeli officer, which was captured thru aerial footage:

http://dotsub.com/view/80f72f12-a701-4520-9925-d96e2d9d4808

There was a battle going on between 2 terrorists and 3 Israeli officers. The first terrorist was killed immediately, but the second terrorist threw a grenade at an Israeli officer. That officer dashed forward and grabbed the terrorist, and then used the terrorist's own body as a shield from the grenade's explosion. The terrorist was killed, but the officer survived. That's something that one might only expect to happen in an action movie.

#215
commonsense
January 14, 2009
10:25 PM

The Guardian:

"Israel's Free Ride Ends"

Michelle Goldberg


"No doubt, some of Israel's most aggressive partisans are going to be alarmed by this sudden shift in the American discourse. They're used to dismissing the world's criticism of Israel as the mutterings of antisemites and bien-pensant third-worldists. The US has been a cocoon that protects Israel and its advocates from facing harsh judgments. But Israel has been ill served by America's endless indulgence. What is happening in Gaza endangers, first and foremost, the benighted people who live there and who are dying by the hundreds. It also endangers Israel itself, pushing already elusive prospects for peace ever more out of reach.

An American media that turned a blind eye to Israeli expansionism and human rights abuses ultimately made the Jewish state less, not more, secure. Without the US putting pressure on Israel to dismantle the settlements and loosen the blockade in Gaza, leaders there had neither the incentive nor the political cover to do so. Now that the American press is displaying a bit of courage in facing an unfolding catastrophe abetted by American leadership, perhaps our politicians will have room to do the same."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/jan/13/us-media-israel-gaza


#216
kerty
January 14, 2009
10:27 PM

Sanjay

That is called using terrorist as a human shield.

#217
commonsense
January 14, 2009
10:30 PM

Main Editorial, _The Guardian_

"Israel and the family of nations

The final area for discussion is Israel's obligations as a member of the community of civilised nations. Israel should take no comfort from the protracted wrangling that led to last week's UN resolution calling for a ceasefire, nor from ­America's abstention or Britain's hand-­wringing. All the signs are that the Obama administration is not going to be sympathetic to a future of failed blockades or the intransigent refusal to talk to Israel's enemies.

None of these arguments will, on past form, cut much ice. That is why the talk elsewhere is now of boycotts, of arms embargos, of revoking trade agreements, withholding financial support and cancelling export credit guarantees. These are not all appealing options, nor should they be yet necessary. But a country which truly rejects the collective concerns of the international community leaves its friends, never mind its enemies, running out of road."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/13/gaza-israelandthepalestinians2

#218
SanjayTheAtheist
January 14, 2009
11:31 PM

kerty,

well, turnabout is fairplay :)

#219
Anamika
January 15, 2009
09:24 AM

The key issue was one of semantic accuracy, he said. "Terrorism is a deadly tactic, not an institution or an ideology."

Democracies must respond to terrorism "by championing the rule of law, not subordinating it," he added, citing Guantánamo Bay and endorsing Mr Obama's pledge to close the controversial detention camp. - David Milliband in Mumbai

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5522680.ece

#220
Ruvy
URL
January 15, 2009
09:37 AM

I pulled this article from a blog-site, but originally it is from the Jerusalem Post, printed in 2002. It is rather relevant today, especially with Arab women screaming at street demonstrations that we Jews need to be returned to the oven. The bottom line is that the British responded to Arab terror with brutality far exceeding anything we have engaged in in Israel.

Were the British faced with continuous bombardment from Gaza the way we have been, I doubt if a single building in Gaza would still be standing. I doubt if a single Gazan Arab would yet be alive.

The posting was dedicated to the hypocritical British bastards who dare criticize us after bombing German women and children into bits in raid after raid on German cities in WWII. And I would note that the hypocrites who criticize us on this site either live in Britain themselves or quote extensively from British sources. So the British perfidy against the Jewish people continues today.

#221
commonsense
January 15, 2009
09:39 AM

""GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Israeli forces shelled the United Nations headquarters in the Gaza Strip on Thursday, setting the compound on fire as UN chief Ban Ki-moon was in the area on a mission to end Israel's devastating offensive against the territory's Hamas rulers.""

excellent! no doubt there were munitions dumps and human shields there too...

#222
commonsense
January 15, 2009
09:46 AM

AP:

""Shells also struck a hospital, five high-rise apartment buildings and a building housing media outlets in Gaza City, injuring several journalists.""

First: "surgical strikes" etc. etc.
Second: shit happens in a war
Third: who knows

#223
Ruvy
URL
January 15, 2009
10:25 AM

Shells also struck a hospital, five high-rise apartment buildings and a building housing media outlets in Gaza City, injuring several journalists.

My heart bleeds for the non-combatants who danced for joy when Jews died - and for the journalists who made money covering them.

It's about time the Arabs in Gaza learn that war is hell.

My father, z"l, saw a Russian shell strike a building in the village he lived in in Russia-Poland during WWI. Cossacks came riding in killing Jewish men, spearing them on their lances like so many fish. My father saw plenty of death from war - and had no stomach to go into the US Armed Forces in 1942. He'd seen enough as a child.

Arab children need to see war up close and personal, like my father did. That way, they'll learn as did my father did that war is not the glorious bullshit the Arab propagandists make it out to be.

#224
commonsense
January 15, 2009
12:43 PM

The Independent (London):

"Prime Minister Gordon Brown has condemned the Israeli shelling of the United Nations HQ in Gaza as "indefensible".

The UN building was set alight by the bombardment as its secretary general Ban Ki-moon visited the area on a mission to secure a ceasefire.

Mr Brown, speaking on his return from Berlin and Paris, where he had discussed the crisis, said: "Today's attack on the UN headquarters in Gaza is indefensible."

#225
Khartoum
URL
January 16, 2009
06:11 AM

If somebody had to be blamed for the killing of civilians in Gaza -- it, without question, should be Hamas and the residents of Gaza themselves --who brought this onto themselves by electing a fanatical group. Hamas has always, as a rule tried to attack innocent civilians in Israel. What of Israel's children and civilians? Don't they qualify as civilians too? Even worse ,the Hamas has used kids as human shields and killed 40 out of its own citizens for aiding Israel. They have a long-standing habit of storing and launching its weapons from mosques and other civilian areas. It boasts about hiding its operatives in places like hospitals. Israel on the other hand, phones people and drops leaflets to warn civilians of the coming attacks -- at the cost of element of surprise. Isn't it a little fanatical to blame Israel for all the killings of civilians -- on both sides of the border?

#226
sarah islam
URL
January 16, 2009
06:58 AM


Khartoum #225

Gaza is a small piece of property that is densely populated. Israel engages in indiscriminate warfare such as the assassination of Nizar Rayan, in which members of his family were also murdered. It is victims like his dead children that Israel defines as "human shields" in its propaganda.

There is no legitimacy for this interpretation under international law. In circumstances such as these, Hamas is not using human shields, Israel is committing war crimes in violation of the Geneva Conventions and other applicable international law.

#227
Ruvy
URL
January 16, 2009
09:08 AM

I will repeat the painful fact that the only way Arab children will learn to hate war is if they see its results around them.

And I mean war, not the action of terrorist gangs. War stinks from death, it leave wounded who cannot be cared for. It leave dead bodies strewn about like a whirlwind struck them, laying with their eyes open like fish on display in a market.

Until Arab kids see this, what my own father saw in the stone building where so many people took refuge in 1915, they will not comprehend what every single Israeli knows in his heart and soul.

WAR IS HELL.

[EDITED]

On that note, I leave you for the Sabbath.

#228
Anamika
January 16, 2009
09:59 AM

I second SS's original query to DC editors, what must a poster say to be banned? This particular poster has been given enough rope to hang half of the occupied territories with and still no end in sight.

A specific note on 227: REALLY? Lets see just how well that lesson was learned by the self-professed thekedar of the Jewish quom:

"I will repeat the painful fact that the only way Jewish children will learn to hate war is if they see its results around them...If we are the ones who have to teach this gruesome lesson to Jewish children, I feel bad. But if it is a matter of our own survival - the survival of the German people - then this is what we must do."

Glad to DC supports calls for yet ANOTHER final solution!

#229
Deepti Lamba
URL
January 16, 2009
10:12 AM

You know Ruvy as a Buddhist what I can say is what we project to the universe is what comes back to us. Crushing the human spirit never really takes place it only makes the will to fight back stronger.

There is misery on both sides. It has to stop. As a mother it pains my heart to see children suffer which ever side they may live in. You more than anyone else in this forum know what its like to worry whether your family will return home when they bid you goodbye.

I refuse to believe this is you talking for I know you to be a compassionate person. Its rage speaking and in times of war we all are guilty of feeling raw emotions.


#230
smallsquirrel
January 16, 2009
10:25 AM

Deepti... so rage excuses hate speech? I do not buy it. my emotions are raw, too, as are many others. That does not give anyone the right to speak as he has spoken. We all say things we do not mean from time to time, and generally later we then back off our words and apologize. Ruven has never done that. He simply uses words like an uzzi and indiscriminately mows down everything in his path.

It IS him. He's stood behind is words. Believe it. He's not ashamed of his hate. But I am, and I want him gone.

#231
Aaman
URL
January 16, 2009
10:29 AM

227 was reprehensible and has been edited. this violates basic humanist standards and will not be condoned.

Everyone is welcome to continue to discuss this important issue, but no more calls for genocide or any such direct action. Your opinions are your own, and you can choose whatever political stance you want, but there is a limit - which will not be crossed.

#232
Aaman
URL
January 16, 2009
10:35 AM

And, btw, Rage does not excuse hate speech.

#233
commonsense
January 16, 2009
12:06 PM

lost track of which thread it is on, but ruvy's comments about him feeling sad that nobody in the destroyed UN headquarters died, should be deleted and ruvy really should either be banned or at least should be told that such comments are way beyond any limits of human indecency, forget about decency.

#234
Anamika
January 16, 2009
12:31 PM

Editors, there have been far more comments from Ruvy that count as hate speech which have not been edited or deleted and nor has the poster been warned on any of the threads (although it may have happened backchannel).

And "rage" is not a reason or excuse for hate speech. And if so, I would like to know exactly the limits of that rage: calls for killing Muslims post the Mumbai attacks? Or calls for killing Americans due to its funding of the massacre in Gaza or Afghanistan and Iraq?

More specifically, I would like to know why Ruvy is given extra room for his hate speech when similar stuff from any other poster would be deleted?

Deepti: I agree with SS, believe it! It is Ruvy and that is not compassionate. You know when he brags about going on "patrolling" with his gun?

Why not just google "Samaria", West Bank, settlers, violence. Amnesty, UN, Human Rights Watch and Doctors without Frontiers have PILES of video footage and documentation on EXACTLY what these "settler patrols" do: intimidation, humiliation, assault, battery, mutilation, rape, torture and murder of Palestinian citizenry (and no, dont take my word for it, there is ample evidence easily available).

Some how, in my book, none of those acts count as evidence of "compassion."

#235
commonsense
January 16, 2009
01:12 PM

Deepti:

"I refuse to believe this is you talking for I know you to be a compassionate person."

from what I have seen and others have seen on DC, I refuse to believe that "compassionate" is a word that comes to mind describing Ruvy.

#236
commonsense
January 16, 2009
01:14 PM

indeed, Ruvy's hate-speech is the constant denominator in a majority of his posts, rage or post-rage.

#237
Deepti
URL
January 16, 2009
01:46 PM

I have heard enough Indians spew heinous crap against our neighbors post the Mumbai episode about nuking Pakistan to oblivion and teaching their kids a or two lessons on what real Indian jihad can be all about. And this has come from decent law abiding citizens. Does it excuse them or even Ruvy for mouthing it no but it does happen in extreme situations.

For Christsake I have seen supposed law abiding citizens torch peoples homes during the 84 riots and sat through the worst kind of hate speech during the Barbari Masjid episode.

Hate begets hate. Its as simple as that. You all seemed to have missed out what I said to him initially. You get back exactly what you wish for others.

Here is what I said to him You know Ruvy as a Buddhist what I can say is what we project to the universe is what comes back to us. Crushing the human spirit never really takes place it only makes the will to fight back stronger.


I am asking him to calm down and no I don't think there is any partiality going on here.

But you are welcome to your opinions on the matter as usual and can make whatever you want of my statements.

#238
commonsense
January 16, 2009
02:52 PM

Not to prolong this, but Deepti i don't disagree with what you have to say, except for the fact that:

"For Christsake I have seen supposed law abiding citizens torch peoples homes during the 84 riots and sat through the worst kind of hate speech during the Barbari Masjid episode."

Not on DC! Yes, once in a while we do get hate speech by others, but sooner or later they give up and disappear. Not so with Ruvy. He is certainly a special case because despite all the variations on the theme he appears to offer, the theme remains the same - hate, hysteria, hyperbole. overall a pretty sad case, that honestly none of the hit-and-run, fly-by-night spewers of hate on DC can match.

#239
Slime_id
January 16, 2009
07:18 PM

@Ruvy # 209, Many thanks for sharing the israeeli perspective on the war on hamas.

@Sarah, 226
"Hamas is not using human shields"

Under whatever circumstances, they are at war! whether they like it or not. So why shy from the fact that the war is killing people and Hamas is a part of that equation. Is Hamas a legitimate force when it chooses to fight a war like a guerilla?

#240
commonsense
January 16, 2009
08:54 PM

hey anamika, temporal, smallsquirrel, deepti, somik, aditi, sarah, ravi kulkarni! it was nice meeting your folks here! not that i intend to inject some pointless drama, but being human, I cannot help but feel deeply connected to folks who are, in their own ways, struggling against irrational crap everywhere, even though we did not always agree with each other. human, all too human.

ruvy, kerty, ledzius, slime, kaffir, chandra, man singh (fighting dacoits somewhere), sanjay etc. etc., I guess you have the last irrational word against basic commonsense and human decency. Regardless, have a good life, and go easy on the ones you love. yes, you win, so to speak. congratulations.



#241
Deepti Lamba
URL
January 16, 2009
10:41 PM

CS, I'd like Ruvy to be upfront with me and say that he wasn't just saying these things in a fit of rage. If he truly means it then I think the terrorists have surely won and if this blind rage is what Israel feels then hatred has surely won the battle for now at least.

The war is however far from over. We have to keep talking, we have to try all the time to promote the cause of peace or else we all stand to lose in the long run.













#242
Anamika
January 17, 2009
05:06 AM

CS - thanks...but hope this does not mean you are leaving DC? I have to say that Ruvy and his ilk get so much leeway and spew so much irrational hatred on this site that I dont come back on DC for long periods as well.

Deepti: Not prolonging this, but on this particular poster we go around in circles. For whatever reason, he is important for the editors to have on the site regardless of his revolting views and is given a leeway that is not available - on such constant and repeated basis - to any other poster. Here is another gem from another thread from Ruvy:

"I read the story of the shelling of the UN HQ in Gaza brought here through the hypocritical British press by others at CNN. Tears of sorrow came down my face - because the building was not entirely destroyed and all those in it - enablers of Arab terror and murder - were not killed."

I protested his hate speech over VERY long ago and I stand by what I had said back then. He has managed to spew hateful stuff about Hindus, Muslims, Indians, Americans, Lebanese (yes, look up the archives on that particular Israeli massacres for some more of Ruvy's gems).

Deepti, I am very happy that you feel that he is "compassionate." If you go back to history, Hitler was also very "compassionate" to those of his family/friends circle (until he had them killed of course). The guy is a fanatic and DC gives him a platform and no words about "compassion" will change that.

On the other hand, what it will do is drive away those readers/posters who find his sort of views revolting because by allowing hate speech to be posted without check and over an extended period of time, DC appears to condone it.

Bye all...

#243
Chandra
January 17, 2009
06:54 AM

Commonsense

Mate, why drag me into this? Goodbye nevertheless

#244
commonsense
January 17, 2009
11:19 AM

Anamika,

I guess so! Although me being me...Not speaking metaphorically, but I really felt sick, organically, when I read the gem from Ruvy that you quote in your message. i know there are many like him in this world, but my question was, what is this guy doing here? why am i arguing with such a person? This also when SS raised the issue of "banning" him. Here is what I wrote in response to his gem which is clearly, regardless of how one interprets it, an incitement to kill other people:


Ruvy:
"I read the story of the shelling of the UN HQ in Gaza brought here through the hypocritical British press by others at CNN. Tears of sorrow came down my face - because the building was not entirely destroyed and all those in it - enablers of Arab terror and murder - were not killed."

CS:

"if any of Ruvy's friends or relatives read this comment, they should do him a favour and get some medical help for him. whatever his problem is, I bet it is pretty hard to pronounce. regardless, he should not be let loose on the world in general."

Chandra mate, it was a typo, or the typo devil that dragged you into the hall of infamy. sorry! not that it will destroy your sense of self, but still: apologies.


#245
kerty
January 17, 2009
12:34 PM

War is hell. War is lot more than hate speech. War is intended to do more than offend. Its not about political correctness or war of rhetorics. War is about killing, cold blooded, really. War is about defeating, mercilessly. Rest is all PR and posturing. If mere rhetorics of war offends you, than imagine living in the actual theater of war, year after year. Ruvy has lived under it. His country is at war. His countrymen are facing the perils of war that more than offend. And blogsters living in ivory towers and who have nothing personal at stake have balls to be offended by rhetorics of war in the heat of ongoing war in a thread about war? They shouldn't be in a thread about war if they can't handle the heat of arguments. Its not like they are innocent bystanders - they too have chosen warring sides and have been no less virulent in war of words, often at a very personal level.

We all take strong positions, but most of us try to separate the message and the messenger; arguments/ideas and the poster. It is juvenile to attack the posters as a way to attack the ideas and arguments. Because that may perhaps defeat the poster, but not the ideas and arguments. Its a typical communist way of silencing the critics as a way of dealing with the arguments and silencing the criticism. Yet, they predictably feel exhasberated & frustrated why those pesky arguments and criticism have not gone away.

#246
smallsquirrel
January 17, 2009
12:49 PM

ooooooooooh, I see Kerty, so when 9/11 happened I was free to call for the death of all Arabs, is it?

The point is not that Ruvy has a right to be concerned for his and his family's wellbeing, etc. And yes, experience gives him a right to feel more strongly about it than the rest of us. But NOTHING gives the right to ANYONE to call for the death of people who have no control over what is happening.

Oh fuck it, reasoning with you lot is worse than talking to goats. I have no idea why I bother.

#247
kerty
January 17, 2009
01:23 PM

Ruvy qualifies his comment to "enablers of Arab terror and murder". But usual suspects will take it to mean all innocent Arabs. Just as they decry war casualties as killing of civilians - even when most of those so-called civilians are essentially human shield used by Hamas and people caught in the line of fire with Hamas. They want to wage a 1000 year war with Israel and yet have no casualty. They hold such a benign and triumphalist view of war - as if it were just a picnic in the park - you just launch few rockets and suicide bombers and go back to normal civilian life as if it is just another ordinary day. Ruvy tells it as it as and it can be very unsettling for some folks.

#248
smallsquirrel
January 17, 2009
01:26 PM

kerty, you are delusional, he clearly has stated TIME AND TIME AGAIN THAT HE FEELS NO ARAB IS INNOCENT AND HE WANTS THEM ALL DEAD.

go back and read the words yourself in print.

#249
Ruvy
URL
January 17, 2009
06:16 PM

At very end of this article, when I wrote it, I asked a question.

However, the far more relevant question for residents of South Asia is this: Is Israel providing India a model for what it should do in the wake of Mumbai?

The answer is no.

The Israeli government has caved into international pressure, and agreed to a unilateral cease fire, which goes into effect about 40 minutes from when I write this. The utter idiocy of this act, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, demonstrates why the likes of Ehud Olmert, Ehud Barak and Tzipora Livni must be hung for treason. Not only do they refuse to admit the obvious, that the expulsion of Jews from Gush Qatif was a sin, as well as a strategic error, they are refusing to pursue the enemy, Hamas, and forcing it into a position where it has no alternative than unconditional surrender. That is the only acceptable result in a war on a de-facto government of a de-facto state which has called for the extermination of all Jews.

Any Indian government which followed such an example would be worse than a pack of fools.

#250
kerty
January 17, 2009
07:27 PM

Ruvy

Indian government does not fight back. So issue of caving in does not arise. It simply caves in at the very thought of fight or taking any real action. So India's reaction is typically made up of series of postures - which are easily caved in for some other posture. So you would see quick succession of postures that finally culminate in inaction and fades away. Most Indians who are frustrated by India's appeasement of its adversaries look up to Israel in how it deals with its adversaries with resolve. I guess we look in look in Israel a glass half full.

I am sensing that both sides in ME are positioning and posturing for the new US administration. Timing of the ceasefire and unilateral-ness of ceasefire right around the inauguration of Obama can't be a coincidence. Israel has presented Obama administration with fait accompli, and thereby forced Obama to deal with them from Israel's vantage point. Much like Bush administration has handed Obama administration certain fait accompli in the economic sphere, which Obama administration will spend precious years to untangle. It is called setting the agenda of one's opponents even when one is out of power. It derails the opponent's game plan and forces the power to be spent on untangling something else. Clearly Israel fears the worst from Obama, and did not want to take any chances. From here on, Israel can deal with Obama from its position of strength. Its a wise tactical manuver by Israel.

The score card
Israel 1-0 Hummus.

#251
commonsense
January 17, 2009
10:20 PM

NYT:

"John Ging, the Gaza director of the [UN] agency, said that two brothers, ages 5 and 7, were killed about 7 a.m. by Israeli fire at the school. Their mother, who was among 14 others wounded, had her legs blown off.

"These two little boys are as innocent, indisputably, as they are dead," Mr. Ging said. "The question now being asked is: is this and the killing of all other innocent civilians in Gaza a war crime?"

Christopher Gunness, the refugee agency's spokesman, said: "Where you have a direct hit on an Unrwa school where about 1,600 people had taken refuge, where the Israeli Army knows the coordinates and knows who's there, where this comes as the latest in a catalogue of direct and indirect attacks on Unrwa facilities, there have to be investigations to establish whether war crimes have been committed."

The strike was the fourth time Israel has hit an Unrwa school during the war on Hamas. On Jan. 6, Mr. Ging said, 43 people died when an Israeli shell hit the compound of a school in Jabaliya."

#252
Slime_id
January 17, 2009
10:45 PM

My dear uncommon sensed person,

the boys were killed by people perhaps aged 18-20, only 12 years older than them . The sad part of this war is that Israeeli soldiers are not so bad ethically to choose these boys and kill them.
Guess what there seems to be a pattern as why UNRWA schools are targetted. Its the UN.

The sensed people know that UN is being used by Hamas as a cover. If UN as an organization is flawless , so is Israeel. Somewhere some elements in UN are not perfect and are in liason with Hamas either by muscle power or by Arab brotherhood or even money. Israeel unlike India knows almightly media power of UN and still strikes them. Are they foolish or are the 18 yr old Israeeli soldiers ethically brain washed?

#253
commonsense
January 17, 2009
10:55 PM

The most recent: New York Review of Books

"Eyeless in Gaza"

By Roger Cohen

"Israel has the right to hit back at Hamas when attacked--but not to blow Gaza to pieces, or deprive people of food, water, and medicine. In at least one appalling incident at Zeitoun, on the east of Gaza City, where children were found next to their mothers' days-old corpses, the International Red Cross has accused Israel of an "unacceptable" failure "to meet its obligation under international law to care for and evacuate the wounded." Israel denies targeting civilians, accuses Hamas of using civilians as human shields, and says it works in "close cooperation" with international aid organizations. But at some point--and I would say a couple of hundred dead children in Gaza are already well past that point--such denials become pointless: the facts speak for themselves. No invocation of collateral damage or legitimate defense can excuse such wanton killing. As Avi Shlaim, a professor of international relations and former soldier in the Israeli army, has observed, the Gaza offensive "seems to follow the logic of an eye for an eyelash."

There is another right that Israel does not have: to delude its people into thinking that peace is achievable without coming to terms with the deeply entrenched Middle Eastern realities that are Hamas and Hezbollah, organizations still viewed in the US government and Congress almost exclusively through the prism of terror, but whose grassroots political movements present a far more complex, variegated picture. The logic of the Israeli offensive, if there is one, must surely be that Hamas can be so weakened as ultimately to crumble. That is also the logic of the relentless blockade that persisted during the six-month cease-fire despite Israel's earlier commitment, as part of the deal, to opening border crossings. But such logic is flawed. Hamas is not going away. As Brigadier General (Res.) Shmuel Zakai, the former commander of the Israel Defense Forces' Gaza Division, told Ha'aretz on December 22:

We could have eased the siege over the Gaza Strip, in such a way that the Palestinians, Hamas, would understand that holding their fire served their interests. But when you create a tahadiyeh [truce], and the economic pressure on the Strip continues, it's obvious that Hamas will try to reach an improved tahadiyeh , and that their way to achieve this is resumed Qassam fire.
Israel, backed by the United States, has been intent on proving that Hamas must wither and die rather than exploring ways in which it, like the Palestine Liberation Organization before it, can move toward being part of a two-state solution. That is a strategic mistake. Hamas, even with perhaps three hundred of its leaders and militants killed, has been strengthened as a political and social movement by Olmert's last fling, the reckless foray of a failed leader.

I had another dream: that Israeli Arabs, in need of work and cash, were building bomb shelters for Jews in Sderot. Like the first, it proved to be true. Money still talks in the Middle East. Alas, the dead talk louder.

--January 15, 2009"

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22270

#254
Ruvy
URL
January 18, 2009
09:46 AM

We're back to the same old bullshit "ceasefire." We cease, and the enemy fires. Instead of destroying the enemy to the root, the IDF will be restrained - again - because Ehud Olmert, Ehud Barak and Tzipi Livni have no guts and no Jewish spirit at all.

On THIS site there is nothing more to say. There are fools here interpret my very presence as an insult to their thin and torn moral fabric. So, I'll say nothing - HERE. Not because I do not want to offend them - it pleases me to offend hypocrites. They are not worth talking to.

For now.

#255
Ruvy
URL
January 18, 2009
09:51 AM

But this I WILL address.

Aaman,

I'm happy that "hate speech" bothers you so much. You should only get so annoyed and angry about the bigoted editing I see on this site. That is at your door and is your responsibility. I'm sick and tired of seeing my comments deleted as "blathering" or "baiting" when others, whose names are not worth mention, bait and bait and bait and blather incessantly - and are allowed to get by with barely a touch on the trash they waste your bandwidth with.

If I am enraged by anything on this site, it is not the comments or the content of the articles - no matter how I may disagree with them or find them noxious - it is the bigoted editing that YOU tolerate.

You have a good set of writers here. This site has potential. You get out articles fast and you post fiction and poetry as well as the normal set of book, movie and DVD reviews. It is a shame you allow your editors to practice such bigotry in their editing on the comment thread. It brings a good site lower and lower daily.

You don't want me here? You want the bigoted views of the haters of my people to be the only ones that are presented on this site concerning West Asia? Fine! Ban me! I'll be happy to smear this site all over the internet as just another worthless place where anti-Israel propaganda is accepted as truth! Believe me, they'll read the trash posted here against Israel, and they will see the anti-Israel sentiment here, the contempt evinced by posters like Anamika and they will believe ME. They will say, "Reuven, why did you even waste your time posting articles at that trashy site? They are not worthy of you!" My wife says it already. Maybe I should listen to her.

As for smallsquirrel, who says this of me, It IS him. He's stood behind is words. Believe it. He's not ashamed of his hate. But I am, and I want him gone: she labels herself as a Jew.

If Jew-hatred gets bad in the States because of economic conditions or because of anti-Israel sentiment - she will be labeled as a Jew, and she will suffer for it. Washington is a small town - word gets around fast.

In her case, she will suffer unjustly. Her views are distinctly at variance from those of most of us, and more to the point she is a practicing Hindu. Frankly, for her sake, I hope she never feels the lash of Jew-hatred where she lives. I do not wish here ill.

But she has judged me, and frankly I've judged her.

#256
Aaman
URL
January 18, 2009
10:13 AM

You're welcome to stay, or leave - banning is not something we personally believe in. We do try to be impartial and request any offensive comments to be brought to our attention or biased editing.

The same is true for anyone, of course - stop baiting, stop making it seem as if to be an Israeli or an Arab or a Muslim or a Hindu is a crime or a sin.

This site will continue to strive to be a big tent and open to opinions of all shades, regardless.

#257
sarah islam
URL
January 18, 2009
10:28 AM

Dear Commonsense, anamika, temporal and smallsquirrel, and everyone else that I might have missed, I have followed the debates here carefully and faithfully and I am so glad that I could meet you all on this forum. However, I think it is time that I say goodbye for now. Comments here and the editors' non commital attitude towrads hate speech is not something that I have a stomach for. For now.

Ruvy:

"I'll be happy to smear this site all over the internet as just another worthless place where anti-Israel propaganda is accepted as truth! Believe me, they'll read the trash posted here against Israel, and they will see the anti-Israel sentiment here, the contempt evinced by posters like Anamika and they will believe ME."

Are you serious? You've got to be kidding me! As long as you beleive that only Israel has a point and every one else can basically go to hell, I don't think it is possible to enter a dialogue with you. sorry.

Like Commonsense said:
"I guess you have the last irrational word against basic commonsense and human decency."

Editors,
If there were such virulent comments from the non Israeli side, I would have been curious to see what you would have made of it.

Peace!

#258
smallsquirrel
January 18, 2009
10:41 AM

sarah islam... sad to see you go. but to set the record straight, the editors try their best to get everything. there are few of them (editors), and in order to really get every word, they would have to do nothing but monitor DC day and night 24/7. But the editors are people with other lives, jobs, families, friends, hobbies... surely you can understand that each and every editor has at some point implored people to stop the nonsense and come correct. but they cannot live attached to this site. please go easy on them, it is a thankless and payless job.

#259
commonsense
January 18, 2009
10:52 AM

without comment:

Ruvy:

"Fine! Ban me! I'll be happy to smear this site all over the internet as just another worthless place where anti-Israel propaganda is accepted as truth! Believe me, they'll read the trash posted here against Israel, and they will see the anti-Israel sentiment here, the contempt evinced by posters like Anamika and they will believe ME. They will say, "Reuven, why did you even waste your time posting articles at that trashy site?"

#260
commonsense
January 18, 2009
11:03 AM

SS to kerty:

""Oh fuck it, reasoning with you lot is worse than talking to goats."

the goats are insulted, dazed, confused and rendered speechless.

#261
Slime_id
January 18, 2009
11:44 AM

haha Ruvy,

indeed Barak and Livni seem to have got instructions that Obama needed a clean slate. True that Jewish spirit was missing. Lets hope things look better after one week or we are back to square one.

It will be intresting to see how Hamas claims victory unless IDF stays put in Gaza.

Regarding sarah, well if i said I will leave, CS and his ilk term me as losers. depends on who is racist and when are we not racist.

#262
Ruvy
URL
January 18, 2009
12:59 PM

I'd like Ruvy to be upfront with me and say that he wasn't just saying these things in a fit of rage. If he truly means it then I think the terrorists have surely won and if this blind rage is what Israel feels then hatred has surely won the battle for now at least.

Deepti,

The war you see going on is not between the forces of love and hatred. The war you see is between a de-facto regime in a de-facto state that has called repeatedly for the extermination of all Jews - GENOCIDE - and the efficient corrective experience levied upon this regime and its supporters (up till now) by the IDF.

Exterminating the enemy means exterminating the enemy. It does not mean killing every Arab in Gaza. THAT IS GENOCIDE.

Let's be clear as to terms here. About 1,100 Arabs have died in Gaza in this campaign - .1% (one tenth of one percentum) of the population. Let's look at what genocide entails. Genocide entails, at a minimum, what the Romans called "decimation" - killing off one tenth of the population, one out of ten. Genocide happened in Poland - 3,000,000 Jews lived there in 1938 - 5,000 remained in 1946.

Even the over three million who died when Pakistan separated from India 61 or 62 years ago comprised less than 1% of the population on the Sub-Continent. There are very bitter memories of all the deaths that took place - but I do not remember reading in any article here Indians accusing Pakistan of genocide, and I do not remember Pakistanis accusing India of genocide. It may be that in Pakistani textbooks, that is the precise accusation leveled against India. Anamika could speak to that question better than I, having lived in Islamabad.

The war is however far from over. We have to keep talking, we have to try all the time to promote the cause of peace or else we all stand to lose in the long run.

When the Arabs come crawling on their hands and knees begging for peace, then the issue will have been decided. Then, and only then, can peace be negotiated. As of now, Hamas calls for genocide of all Jews. And the Israeli government refuses to do what is necessary to cause the Arabs to come begging for peace. Therefore, there will continue to be war and death.

This is not rage speaking, madame; this is cold, hard logic.

#263
smallsquirrel
January 18, 2009
04:20 PM

ruvy, I will not suffer for it because I have spoken out against what is wrong and I do stand for what is right. I am a practising HUMANIST. I believe in Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Bah'aiism... you name it, if it stands for righteousness I can get behind it. And if by chance something does happen and I am persecuted, then so be it. I will still believe that in the end, peace should prevail and hatred is something to be battled with every nerve and fibre of one's being.

There is not just one kind of Jew, Revuen, and you do not get the right to define what is good and correct and pure in the eyes of G-d.

#264
Deepti Lamba
January 19, 2009
02:22 AM

Ruvy my family suffered during the Partition.

On the one hand my great aunt was on the verge of being raped by a maundering mob on the other hand her husband and my grandfather were actually saved by Muslims from another angry mob.

What Pakistanies feel about our country matter chicken shit to me. We aren't a country out to please those across our borders. It would be nice if we had amicable relationship with them but beyond that they have to deal with the monsters they have created on their soil.

All we can do is strengthen our borders, ensure our citizens are safe and work towards a robust economy. A happy prosperous nation is the best revenge we can have against terrorists.

I do believe in the Gandhian policy. Anger and violence are never the solution. And at the same time it doesn't mean we become doormats. The Righteous path is always just in its course.

Was Israel able to crush Hamas? No! it merely strengthened their cause even more in the hearts of the Arabs.

You are not speaking with cold logic Ruvy but with anger, hurt and are driven by the need to show your might.

Hamas is calling for genocide Jews are actualizing it!

I feel sorry for you that you want people to come begging for mercy on their knees to you and to your country.

Here in India we know we live insecure lives. I have grown up seeing violence, trembled with fear at the site of people and homes being burned, traveled in buses at the time when buses were bombed but one thing I knew if I began to hate I would be no different from those who carried forth communal violence and planted bombs!

I refuse to feel the need to see someone crawl tn my doorstep begging for mercy. That feeling itself makes me sick to my stomach.

To flush out Hamas they killed innocents. They deliberately targeted the UN school.

Israel has to repent for her actions. In my books Israel and Hamas are two sides of the same coin at this point.

And as a friend and well wisher I am telling you Ruvy you are wrong in this matter. So very wrong and yes I will pray that wisdom and compassion grows in your heart.

You may not want to talk to me anymore and that is fine. You are hurting and in rage but know this I speak out of deep concern and without malice.

I do hope you will give peace a chance and one day realize no one religion has all the answers. There are just many ways to reaching to truth.









#265
Ruvy
URL
January 19, 2009
03:44 AM

Deepti,

What Pakistanis feel about our country matter chicken shit to me. We aren't a country out to please those across our borders. It would be nice if we had amicable relationship with them but beyond that they have to deal with the monsters they have created on their soil.

All we can do is strengthen our borders, ensure our citizens are safe and work towards a robust economy. A happy prosperous nation is the best revenge we can have against terrorists.


Let's change that paragraph just a little bit so you see my attitudes mirrored in them.

What Arabs feel about our country matters chicken shit to me. We aren't a country out to please those across our borders. It would be nice if we had amicable relationship with them but beyond that they have to deal with the monsters they have created on their soil.

All we can do is strengthen our borders, ensure our citizens are safe and work towards a robust economy. A happy prosperous nation is the best revenge we can have against terrorists.

If Arab terrorists didn't fire rockets daily from Gaza, we would have peace - even if their were no treaty. We wouldn't have to "deal with the monsters they have created on their soil". If they didn't fire at us from hospitals, schools, mosques and civic buildings, they wouldn't be targeted in turn.

But they have; therefore they have been targeted. We have been forced to deal with the monsters they have created on their soil.

Israel has consistently held out the hand of peace to them - and it has consistently been rejected. The Arabs have chosen the path of war; they have chosen the path of terror.

This present "cease-fire", for what it is worth, is a unilateral one initiated by Israel. The enemy has not been pursued to its lairs, flushed out and killed. They have been allowed to live.

I think that is a mistake. "He who is kind to the cruel will ultimately be cruel to the kind."

This has been the pattern in the past, and this will be the pattern followed again.

Albert Einstein once said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

The Israeli regime has done the same thing over and over again - "win" the war and sue for peace. It didn't work before, and it won't work now. To do it yet again is madness.

#266
Ruvy
URL
January 19, 2009
05:29 AM

I do hope you will give peace a chance
We have given peace a chance: we have seen death and terrorism as our rewards.

and one day realize no one religion has all the answers. There are just many ways to reaching to truth. Do not mistake me for a Christian or a Wahhabi, Deepti. My goal is not to convince you to change your mind about anything: my goal is to help resuscitate the ancient Kingdom of Israel. With G-d's grace, I'll be allowed to continue on that task.

#267
commonsense
January 19, 2009
08:10 AM


Ruvy:

""my goal is to help resuscitate the ancient Kingdom of Israel. With G-d's grace, I'll be allowed to continue on that task.""

jeopardy answer: what is genocide/ethnic cleansing?

#268
Deepti Lamba
January 19, 2009
08:18 AM

Not on the tears of the innocent Ruvy.

The root cause is always hatred. Take away that you take away war. Its as simple as that.

None of us can say we have never felt hatred towards someone or the other in our lives. Which is why I don't stand in judgment towards another . The fight has historical roots but that does not excuse the cycle of eternal hatred.

Israel is a nation the Palestinians have to recognize it as such and Israel has to withdraw its death grip from Palestinian.

Citizens of both sides deserve to lead free lives.

Solution seems simple but there's been so much bloodshed and hatred that no one is willing to give an inch.

How many deaths do we have read about the newspapers? Does it matter whether it is an Israelite child or a Palestinian child that gets caught in the cross fire?

Hamas lives in the heart of the people. They were elected democratically. It is the Palestinian heart that has to change and that of the Israelite. And one cannot use force on the heart only love can.

Dialog is the only way to bring peace in the region not war.





#269
Deepti Lamba
January 19, 2009
08:38 AM

Ruvy, the truce has never been between equals. Once the spirit of a community is crushed they only feel ill will towards the victorious no matter how magnanimous the other may try to act post war.


The death of Rabin was truly tragic for both sides. If he spearheaded the nation maybe there would have been a different outcome.

You know the only silver lining we Indians had post mumbai attacks? We stood united against these horrendous acts of violence as a nation be it as muslims, hindus etc

Point is its the heart of every individual that matters. Yours, mine and even theirs.

Now that there is truce how do we begin to heal hearts? I would like to hear your thoughts on that matter.

#270
sarah islam
URL
January 19, 2009
08:57 AM

Smallsquirrel, thanks for setting me right on the editor's issues. I do understand they have lives too. sorry was being too emotional, there :-p

Thanks Kerty for making me see that quitting is not the solution.

I have just logged on and realize that you are all right. debate can not be stemmed even if one or two people are hell bent on turning it into a hate-fest.

I think we should stop pussy footing around this issue. No one has a god given right to anything. If that were true this whole world would have been in a more horrible mess than it is in now. And anyway this entity called god would have spoken out by now if he/she had a conscience. So stop this bullshit about who has the divine right to live and who has the divine duty to die.

It is getting increasingly difficult for me, as an Indian to understand how Ruvy can constantly keep on talking about exterminating Palestinian Arabs who he collectively terms Hamas. Yes we have also had murder, mayhem, genocide evn, in our country but we are in the end, mature enough to understand that our collective identity is Indian, and not Indian muslim, Indian hindu and so on. Not to say that we don't have our problems. We do. But on the whole we also have voices on all sides who tell us to stop the communalism crap and move on.

Here we are all so deeply emberdded into each other that to understand this kind of superiority somplex is just not possible. Take my family, we are all a happy mixed bunch of practicising brahmins, muslims, atheists, christians and our jewish great aunt has had a great life with the rest of us as we have had with her.

Our family (both mine and my husband's) has been badly scarred by partition but we realize that that was a madness that we are not responsible for. All we are responsible for is that it is never allowed to happen again.

We do not bandy around the 'partition' word or throw it around as the last word in to win any arguments.

So when you throw in the holocaust taunt, be careful as you are not just sullying the memory of all those who died but are also using it as a means to silence any legitimate debate.

No one here, as far as I know is a 'jew hater' and I will not stand around and let anyone call the Palestinians any unwarranted names that they have not earned.

They are the ones who have paid with their lives for this 'just war' as Israel calls it and you have got be kidding if you equate all of them with Hamas. Sorry, that type of thinking does not stick especially here in India. If we thought that there would only be one kind of Indian living here.

Ruvy, You can not 'resurrect' any ancient kingdoms without the consent of your neighbours in the 21st century.

And you will never have the arabs coming to you on their knees because they too have a heritage and history that they are proud of, just like you have yours.

Peace!

#271
smallsquirrel
January 19, 2009
09:40 AM

we should be careful not to generalize all of Ruvy's feelings onto all Jews. Most of us are not as virulent as he is, and we do not seek any of the hateful things that Ruvy desires.

Israel is acting horrifically. As I understand it, many Israelis who are NOT Zionists are rightfully horrified and scared at what their government has become capable of.

What I fear is that a bunch of people are now hijacking the name of Judaism and giving us all a bad name. Well, then, we have more in common with Islam than previously thought. I say we throw the radical Zionists and the radical Islamists in some god-forsaken place, let them fight it out themselves and let the rest of us real god-fearing, peace loving people live in peace.

#272
sarah islam
URL
January 19, 2009
09:50 AM

SS

"we have more in common with Islam than previously thought. I say we throw the radical Zionists and the radical Islamists in some god-forsaken place, let them fight it out themselves and let the rest of us real god-fearing, peace loving people live in peace."

hear, hear! well said ss.

As an aside, i do hope you don't think that i generalize his comments to mean 'all jews'.

#273
Ruvy
URL
January 19, 2009
09:59 AM

Sarah writes:

Ruvy, You can not 'resurrect' any ancient kingdoms without the consent of your neighbours in the 21st century.

You are wrong. We have done so - at terrible cost to ourselves, but we have done so. And we will continue to do so.

Deepti writes:

Now that there is truce how do we begin to heal hearts? I would like to hear your thoughts on that matter.

Finally, an intelligent question! The answer indeed lies in the healing of the hearts and of the souls of those who live here.

There is nothing that I can do to counteract the Arab propaganda of hate except to silence it. That takes military power. There is nothing I can do to silence the enablers of the Arab haters of the Jewish people.

We do not have the military power to silence the State Department, the chancellories of Europe, the UN, and everyone else on the planet who seeks to put the Jew in the position where his choice is between death - and death. And that is the basic goal here, whether you wish to admit that or not.

Worldly power, such as is found in the World of Lies and Falsehood, is not sufficient to the job.

Given that, the obvious solution is to take a knife and slit my throat. Better I should be the arbiter of my own death than someone else. That is the obvious solution for the rest of us Jews as well - that is what happened at Masada in 73 CE. The Roman savages who besieged the Jews at Masada never got to kill the men, rape the women and sell the women and children off as slaves.

They found corpses who died as free people.

If it does indeed come to that, that is what I will do. "Live free or die". Until then, I have my faith in G-d. That may mean nothing to you, but it is that faith that keeps me going.

So, my job is to look in the mirror and seek to heal the soul I see. That much I can do. But the massive "healing of hearts" you refer to? That is above my pay grade. That is the job of the G-d of Israel, the Creator of the Universe, the G-d I thank each day for giving me understanding.

That is His job, not mine. He will have to usher in the World of Truth.

As for the Arabs? They have to seek the same thing I do, the same thing you do, seek for a healing of hearts. Otherwise no hearts will be healed - they will only be broken.

#274
smallsquirrel
January 19, 2009
10:04 AM

"As an aside, i do hope you don't think that i generalize his comments to mean 'all jews'. "

no, no sarah, not at all. it was a general statement.

#275
Ledzius
January 19, 2009
10:05 AM

SS - "I say we throw the radical Zionists and the radical Islamists in some god-forsaken place, let them fight it out themselves and let the rest of us real god-fearing, peace loving people live in peace."

Certainly doesn't help India's case. Muslims who have caused trouble in the past (and continue to do so) are not all "radical". They just hate Hindus and create mayhem. They may drink, eat pork and do all kinds of other things not sanctioned by Islam. Mohammad Ali Jinnah used to love pork. And the underworld dons responsible for the 1993 Mumbai blasts probably had all the vices which radical Islamists would cringe at.

You don't have to be a "radical Islamist" to be part of a lynch mob that targets Hindus in a communal riot. Theology hardly matters in such situations. What motivates them is an intense hatred of the opposite camp, not based on theology, but on other factors.

#276
smallsquirrel
January 19, 2009
10:18 AM

erm, ledzius... but it might stop things like the mumbai bombings from happening again.

religious-based violence is caused by these types of groups for the most part. your attempt to classify the average muslim in india as a hindu hating monster.

why am I having this conversation with you anyway, you're like 3 steps away from becoming Ruvy.

#277
Ruvy
URL
January 19, 2009
10:43 AM

An Israeli soldier tells what his experience was like for him.

From the article:

We Feel the Hand of G-d

[Asked about how spirituality and faith in G-d plays out:] Well, I would say that everyday religion is one thing; we take things for granted, we pray every day, some people concentrate more and some concentrate less... But here - you live it, you absolutely live it. Secular soldiers are whispering prayers, everyone wants G-d to be there, and we do feel it - we have seen the hand of G-d; we have been very fortunate, you can see it and feel it... [Regarding packages of sweets that the soldiers receive from the home front:] Even though we're often hungry, the first thing a lot of soldiers go for in the packages that is not the food, but rather the letters and words of support. You can't imagine what it does for us to read them... I have about nine of the really special ones, and when I had a little time, I would go over to some corner and pull them out and read them... They give so much strength...

I just want to tell this really special story that happened to me: Some of the letters have phone numbers on them, so I called one of them to thank her for her letter - an 8-year-old girl named Eden. Eden told me that she was so happy I called and that she had just been in the hospital for an ear operation... But then her mother got on and she was all emotional and told me, "It's so amazing that you called because Eden's two older sisters received calls of thanks from soldiers, and she was feeling sad that no one called her - and now you called!"



#278
Ruvy
URL
January 19, 2009
10:48 AM

More from the same article:


The Old-Man-and-the-Cane Trick
The top Hamas guys are dug-in and hiding pretty well under hospitals and schools, and they don't even know what's going on outside. We've cut their phone lines, including cell phones, and they communicate by sending children with notes to each other; we've caught kids carrying notes. We once saw an old man hobbling down the street with a cane, looking very bent over and wretched, and when he saw Israeli soldiers, he suddenly threw away the cane, ran over to them and tried to blow himself up on them; the soldiers were able to shoot him first.

No Concern for Life
[Asked what the feelings seem to be among the Arabs:] The mindset of the enemy is so alien to us; by us, the death of any one soldier is terrible, a national tragedy - but by them, it seems that they want as many deaths as possible. In Israel, schools even dozens of kilometers from Gaza are closed in order to minimize the risk, which is pretty small - but in Gaza, where there are bombs all over the place all the time, we've seen kindergartens filled with 150 or 200 children, and the kindergartens are boobytrapped! They even shoot rockets from inside mosques and these places...


#279
Ledzius
January 19, 2009
11:08 AM

SS #276- You got me wrong there. I never tried to classify the average Muslim in India as a Hindu-hating monster.

The point I was trying to make is that all Muslim troublemakers are not "radical" or subscribe to Wahhabism as it is made out to be.

The Hindu-Muslim animosity has a lot of history and politics behind it, and it is wishful thinking to assume that once Wahhabism is replaced by Ismailism or what have you, everything is going to turn hunky-dory.

Again I see Sufism being brought up regularly, but asking all Muslims to convert to Sufism is like asking all Hindus to convert to Jainism. In other words, fat chance that that would happen.

#280
Deepti Lamba
January 19, 2009
11:10 AM

Ruvy, the way I see it - no pray goes unanswered.
Your God or my universe... to me its all the same. Whatever be my fate I can still pray for those who do me wrong.




#281
Ledzius
January 19, 2009
11:29 AM

Dee #280 - Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you blog a while ago about you being an atheist? Your above comment doesn't fit in with that.

#282
Deepti Lamba
January 19, 2009
11:48 AM

Yup, me is a Buddhist atheist. The universe -microcosm and macrocosm and all that jazz.

#283
Deepti Lamba
January 19, 2009
11:50 AM

That too I wrote about right here on DC.

#284
Ruvy
URL
January 19, 2009
11:51 AM

Ledzius,

Deepti has been nice enough to talk with me here - instead of at me or about me...

If I remember, Buddha was absolutely silent on the issue opf whether G-d existed or not. It would seem that Deepti, being an adherent of Buddhism, is free to make up her own mind on the issue, as the Buddha refused as a matter of policy to discuss the issue.



#285
smallsquirrel
January 19, 2009
12:14 PM

Ruvy, I tried to talk with you, too but you called me a race traitor, a miscengenator and a disgrace to Jews. Hmmm.....

#286
Ruvy
URL
January 19, 2009
02:17 PM

smallsquirrel,

Ruvy, I tried to talk with you, too but you called me a race traitor, a miscengenator and a disgrace to Jews.

How long have been talking/arguing/discussing here and on BC before Aaman set up this site - two years, three years?

I've held those opinions for quite some time and kept them to myself; it is impolite - to put it mildly - to throw these terms around. And I've attempted to discuss things with you as a gentleman. I've defended you a number of times - you may have defended me a few times as well - and I have not attempted to tell you what to think or what to do. We can scream at each other now if you wish but it is pointless.

You have stated in no uncertain terms that you wanted me banned from this site. You have judged me as a racist, a vile and cruel man and a whole pack of other things that I am not. And now you cry that I've judged you?

Lets quote you:

"But really, how is settlement getting you anywhere except more at odds with peace? you can call me self-righteous if you want to, I don't give a shit. innocent people on both sides are being murdered and all you seem to care about is calling names."

And I said what when you moved to the States? I wished you well and success!

"ruvy, your words bring shame on all Jews. Any person who would condone the killing of innocents is an unforgivable discredit to our people. You have told me many times that I am the same. But how? because I do not stand for the killing of children? Hamas might be a bunch of terrorist bastards, but most of the people of Palestine have been hijacked by circumstance. Your hateful words will come back to haunt you.

The fact that your ignorance allows you to think that this is no different is appalling. My grandparents, who thankfully barely survived the Holocaust, would be spitting on the ground in anger over this senseless killing.

Thank G-d you do not speak for all Jews. May he keep your family safe while you curse the heads of innocent children. You do not deserve mercy, but may you be granted it anyway."

"the time has come to ignore Reuven. He's gotten far too much attention. Just cut him off. Done."

"if we respond to him we legitimize him as the 'other side if the argument' but if we do not respond we allow his hatred and ridiculousness to go unchecked. difficult decision."

"all I know is that I cannot stand his repetitive blathering for much longer. it is tiresome. anyone else got any ideas?"

"That does not give anyone the right to speak as he has spoken. We all say things we do not mean from time to time, and generally later we then back off our words and apologize. Ruven has never done that. He simply uses words like an uzzi and indiscriminately mows down everything in his path.

It IS him. He's stood behind is words. Believe it. He's not ashamed of his hate. But I am, and I want him gone."

I have done what I could not to speak my mind, even when I was furious. I told myself, "no, a Jew doesn't condemn another Jew in public - even an apostate."

Your attempts to "talk" to me have amounted to little more than condemnation. Condemned and judged, I have condemned and judged in return. Your comments ABOUT me have been spiteful and vicious.

Now, what is your problem, young lady? It hurts when someone talks about you?

#287
smallsquirrel
January 19, 2009
02:40 PM

nice compilation Ruvy... but you have left out the numerous exchanges that brought me to the points that you so neatly listed above. and really, while I spoke out about your hatred of arabs SOLELY, you spoke out about my choice of lifemates, the faith I have chosen, the people I surround myself with, where I chose to live and not live, and myriad other things that were not your business to criticize.

so that is my problem. I do not care if you talk about me, I just think you need to stop acting like some poor persecuted, maligned soul. you brought this on yourself with your words. this is not about fear that every jew need have. this is about your own war in your own soul that took over your own heart that you have then brought out and inflicted upon others.

#288
commonsense
January 19, 2009
04:00 PM

editors, possible personal attack alert, but i do have his best interests at heart, from a purely humanitarian point of view.

ruvy is, as must be quite obvious to anyone but him and his acolytes, is seriously [EDITED]. i hope he will get some medical help, as opposed to the overdose of divine help, soon.

#289
commonsense
January 19, 2009
04:07 PM

SS:

"I say we throw the radical Zionists and the radical Islamists in some god-forsaken place, let them fight it out themselves and let the rest of us real god-fearing, peace loving people live in peace."

good idea. and throw their self-appointed thekedaars too, to fight each other for leadership of their presumed flock. Ruvy can be unmpire in chief, or the God of this community.

#290
Ruvy
URL
January 19, 2009
04:45 PM

There is much here that does not make Jews look good - particularly the way Jews have treated other Jews (for which we in Israel will suffer severely, and for which those Jews outside of Israel will suffer more severely). There is, in addition to this, the way Arabs from Judea, Samaria and Gaza have been exploited as cheap labor.

This is all aside from the fact that Israel foisted on the Arabs of Judea, Samaria and Gaza, a terrorist dictatorship of thugs, to which Hamas was the only "reasonable" alternative. But this "reasonable" alternative decided from the gitgo that all Jews had to die.

That was part of the reason for me supporting this war, even though I knew it was designed to get votes for Kadima and Labor (read cowardly traitors), and suck away votes from Likud and SHAS (read traitorous cowards). It ended when it did because all of the rich political class in Israel is deathly afraid of Obama; they know he is anti-Israel and wish to do nothing to anger the bastard. Some even comprehend that if they appear too complaisant with his anti-Israel stance, the government here will be overthrown (G-d please hear my prayer!).

In the meantime, Arabs are always willing to save us from our own stupidity. Arutz Sheva reported a drive by-terror attack not too far from where I live. Always they remind us that they are determined to kill us off. When will they figure out that we are not enemies?

But there are some small (very small) encouraging signs. Temporal, an anti-Israel writer at this site wrote in an article today, "Economic upliftment would counter the zealots' appeal more effectively than use of force and threat. The oil rich Arab states can be cajoled, co-opted or persuaded to join this plan.

The Muslims intelligentsia also has to stand up and help shape the opinion in their countries. The eunuchs (hegiRas) of the Muslim world should be exposed for what they are - the Mubaraks, the Sauds, the Abdullahs, the Assads should be exposed for their impotency and incompetency.

The one lesson that is obvious and obviously unlearned by Israel is that force is not the solution. The same lesson should be learned by the Palestinians in the occupied lands and in the diaspora."

#291
commonsense
January 19, 2009
04:58 PM

[stop baiting]

#292
Ruvy
URL
January 19, 2009
05:20 PM

This was received as an e-mail and there is no URL link for this article as yet, as it has not yet been posted to the PMW site.

Hamas children's propaganda film
reinforces illusion of war victory
by Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook

On the first day of its ceasefire with Israel, Hamas has added a new element to its propaganda campaign claiming that it won the war in Gaza. An animated film for children on Hamas TV depicts Israeli soldiers as cowards who are afraid to enter Gaza. They cry, "Mommy, Mommy," as they head into battle, where they are all killed by Hamas gunfire.

The video ends with an Israeli soldier's blood splattered on the screen, accompanied by a caption that reads, "Whoever dares, let him come! Gaza is his certain death."

Observers have reported that hundreds of Hamas fighters were killed in the conflict, while Israel lost 10 soldiers in combat and three civilians in rocket attacks. However, in the attempt to present this war as a victory, Hamas TV reported today that Hamas lost only 48 fighters and killed 80 Israelis, including 49 soldiers.

This film aims to reinforce the victory myth that Hamas is trying to sell to its people.
Click here to view the video.

#293
Ruvy
URL
January 20, 2009
04:33 AM

Deepti,

This is why FataH and the other Arab terrorist groups must be destroyed. Killed off. FataH and Other Terrorist Cells Boast: We Also Attacked Israelis(Arutz Sheva).

They are at war with us and they will not adhere to peace accords they sign. They have not done so in the past. They say they mean to kill all Jews - and they mean what they say.

As for Hamas, they are back on air broadcasting hate. Also from Arutz Sheva, is this piece on how the Hamas rabbit threatens to eat all the Jews .

This is not how one "heals hearts", Deepti.

#294
sarah islam
URL
January 20, 2009
04:42 AM

Ruvy

"It ended when it did because all of the rich political class in Israel is deathly afraid of Obama; they know he is anti-Israel and wish to do nothing to anger the bastard."

Give the guy a chance. He has just only become president (what? a few hours ago?). Bastard? Why?

As for him being anti Jewish, here is what the Haaretz says:

"Barack Obama's big speech on Israel is now over, and as expected, the candidate made no secret of his support and dedication to the special relationship between the U.S. and Israel. ...Today, he sounded as strong as Clinton, as supportive as Bush, as friendly as Giuliani. At least rhetorically, Obama passed any test anyone might have wanted him to pass. So, he is pro-Israel. Period."

"This film aims to reinforce the victory myth that Hamas is trying to sell to its people."

This is sick, delusional stuff, as usual only to be expected from Hamas and it's jingoistic leaders.

If the animated blood drops bother you, what would you say about the Israeli citizens gathering on some hill top and cheering and dancing to songs when bombs were being dropped on Gaza? There was REAL blood being spilt there. Go to youtube and search for Gaza Genocide Tourism, you will find it.

What is that? Is that normal?

#295
Ruvy
URL
January 20, 2009
06:02 AM

Sarah,

Give the guy a chance. He has just only become president (what? a few hours ago?). Bastard? Why?

Read through this entire article, Barry Obama Loves the Jews - NOT! The View from the Mountains of Samaria. Pay close attention to who I supported in the American election.

Obama will do what I predicted he would do - create what evolves into an openly hostile anti-Israel policy for the United States. He will lose a lot of popularity doing so, but he will persist anyway.

I live on a hilltop in the Samarian mountains. I saw no Jews cheering or dancing over the bombing of Gaza. But, assuming that some did, how does that make them different from the Arabs who cheer and dance and scream mawt al-yahud when Jews die? You mean they finally descended to the low level of the Gazans, Sarah? That bothers you?

Perhaps I should be disturbed if my neighbors have finally descended to the level of the murderous animals who have sought to kill us for nearly nine decades.

#296
sarah islam
URL
January 20, 2009
06:20 AM

Ruvy
What is it with you? I can't say anything without you twisting it around, anymore. Have I EVER defended what some Arabs do when Jews die? HAVE I?

I hated that attitude enough to leave the faith, ok?

Atleast show some regret for what your neighbours are doing. Don't just twist it around and throw it in my face like I am a member of Hamas or something.

Don't be so angry. This is the anger that causes violence in the world and I think you are old enough to know that. I am angry too but I am NOT screaming blue murder because then I would be like the Hamas and the zionists.

I am not personally attacking you. I am having a disagreement with you. I think you know by now that I am not trying to provoke you buyt only trying to say what i think right now.

I hate tit for tat so pls don't keep telling me what arabs do, what muslims do what the others do. I am a peace loving person and anyone descending to that level is simply unacceptable for me. I thought you already knew that.

#297
Ruvy
URL
January 20, 2009
06:37 AM

Sarah,

You didn't read my last paragraph at all, did you? It does bother me if Jews dance at the death of Arabs. We should not descend to that low contemptible level. And I have accused you of nothing. I asked you a question.

Now I'm asking you a second question. Did you at least read the article I suggested you look at?

#298
sarah islam
URL
January 20, 2009
06:41 AM

Ruvy

No, I didn't read the article yet. But I'm going to, tonight.

Will talk later when I have actually read it:-)

Peace !

#299
Ruvy
URL
January 20, 2009
10:41 AM

This came as an e-mail to me without a URL attachment to it, and at present has none. It's a personal account - But in its own way it is news. Good news, rare for this part of the world. From Judy Lash Balint, the author of Jerusalem Diaries and occasional writer at Blogcritics Magazine. The text in bold is my work.

Reuven


Dear friends,

I know most of you in the US will not be paying attention to our part of the wold today,
but here,events of incredible poignancy and meaning are unfolding by the minute and I
feel an obligation to share them with all of you.

The following piece is penned by my friend and colleague, Ilene Bloch-Levy of Shaarei
Tikvah. I hope you'll share in the joy of her son's safe return from the war and feel the
gratitude that we all express for the sacrifices and efforts of all our soldiers.

from Jeusalem,
Judy Lash Balint, moderator
-----------------------------------------------
My son came home

From: Ilene Bloch-Levy, Shaarei Tikvah.

My son came home from Gaza just a few minutes ago. He came home as we had sent him off, only more tired, worn and dirty. Thank you Hashem for bringing him home. To his wife, his brothers and sisters and his loving brood of nieces and nephews. All of us have been waiting patiently these past three weeks to hold him in our arms.

Barely able to wait to embrace him, I ran across the highway where his ride had dropped him off. I grabbed him in the middle of the road and cars driving into my yishuv had to veer around this sight of me standing on tiptoes reaching for my tall, handsome son's face. The drivers waved at us. A few rolled down heir windows to say "todah -- thank you" to my son. I whispered Todah again to Hashem.

I helped him toss his heavy bags into the trunk of the car. The heaviest among them being the one weighted down with foodstuffs that Israel's citizens sent to our soldiers. Tens of thousands of kilograms of food poured into the bases in the south. Cartons upon cartons of instant soups, nuts, pretzels, cookies and nosh of every kind. All sent by individuals, families, schools and businesses from throughout the country. We could barely lift his 'booty' and we both shared a laugh as we flung it onto the back seat.

The words that had been in my heart for so long melted on my tongue. My eyes drank him in, tall, bearded now and his face and soul, a bit darker than before he left us that Sunday morning. He reached his hand to his head and apologized for the fact that he was bareheaded. In the midst of everything his kippa had fallen off. "No matter -- easy enough to replace," I said as his hand slipped into mine. I reached up to grab his neck
and felt his lips touch my cheek, and I knew that his presence, like this, was all that I had
prayed for each day since he packed his bags and left before the sun even rose that cold
morning.

I pulled in front of his apartment, a few kilometers from my home, and as we descended the steps I heard him speak gently and lovingly with his wife at work, telling her how anxious he was to see her. He turned on the boiler and laughingly told me "I'm not getting out of this shower for the next hour." The bags fell to the floor and he leaned against the kitchen counter to untie his boots swiftly flinging them aside and letting his bare feet rest on the tile floor. He was exhausted and I hesitated to start with the barrage of questions that had been streaming through my head every day, every hour for these past few weeks.
He smiled as he opened the bag of goodies and told me about the elementary school children from Mevasseret Zion who had attached notes with their gifts. He spoke with three of them to thank them personally. One child wrote a three page letter and the soldiers in my son's unit were grateful to learn more of this 8-year old's daily life, his
favorite subjects and his fondness for Playstation. When they called to speak with him, he was overwhelmed and kept calling them "gibborim" heroes.

"Ima" he said, "I'm tired now, but I have to tell you how extraordinary this nation is. The
children who wrote to us, the people who sent their good wishes with their packages of food, the businesses that sent truckloads of goods. The soldiers I served with, each one caring deeply about the other one. Zahal who made sure that we were well trained and well equipped for our mission. But mostly. Mostly.

This was a war that was guided by the Hand of G'd. Everyday we felt His presence -- whether deciding to enter a building by smashing down the back wall rather than entering through the front door, only to discover that the front door had been booby trapped, or searching rooms in a house and uncovering a tunnel under a bed we had lifted where tens of Hamas terrorists were hiding in the hopes of kidnapping one of us, or dozens more
stories."


I looked at this child's face and saw the extraordinary young man he had become. Filled
with faith. Feeling a passion for those values that have held this nation together for thousands of years. And, his very presence. His very modesty. His deep felt pride at being part of this nation. All of this wrapped around my heart and left me humbled.

Humbled and grateful.

"And I will lift up my eyes unto the mountains, from where my strength will come."

#300
Ruvy
URL
January 21, 2009
01:22 PM

Look at the photograph in the upper left hand corner of this story at Arutz Sheva says more than I can possibly say. The "Sieg und Heil" salute of the HizbAllah terrorists (similar to the "Sieg und Heil" salute of the PLO) tells you clearly which racist European ideology these bastards draw their ideas from (hint: it ain't English Socialism).

The story - haw HizbAllah was foiled in its attempts to be the Persian cats paw outside of Lebanon and Gaza - is almost inconsequential against that photo.

#301
commonsense
January 21, 2009
04:46 PM

The Guardian 21st Janurary:

"Under review by Colonel Shai Alkalai is the use of white phosphorus by a reserve paratroop brigade in northern Israel.

According to army sources the brigade fired up to 20 phosphorus shells in a heavily built-up area around the Gaza township of Beit Lahiya, one of the worst hit areas of Gaza.


According to senior IDF officers, quoted today in the Ha'aretz newspaper, the Israeli military made use of two different types of phosphorus munitions.

The first, they insisted, was contained in 155mm artillery shells, and contained "almost no phosphorus" except for a trace to ignite the smoke screen.

The second munitions, at the centre of the inquiry by Col Alkalai, are standard phosphorus shells - both 88mm and 120mm - fired from mortars.

About 200 of these shells were fired during Israel's Operation Cast Lead in Gaza, and of these - say the IDF - 180 were fired on Hamas fighters and rocket launch crews in northern Gaza.

Alkalai is investigating the circumstances in which the remaining 20 shells were fired, amid compelling evidence on the ground that phosphorus munitions were involved in the attack on a UN warehouse and a UN school.


"They obviously could not have gone on denying the use of phosphorus," Donatella Rovera, Amnesty researcher for Israel and the Occupied Territories, told the Guardian yesterday. "There are still phosphorus wedges burning all over Gaza including at the UN compound and at the school.

"It is clear they are not using it as smoke screen as they claimed. They used it in areas where they had no forces, and there are much less problematic smoke screens that they could have used."

Amnesty on Monday warned that Israel could be guilty of war crimes, saying the use of the shells in a civilian areas was "clear and undeniable".


The admission that the shells may have been used improperly follows yesterday's demand by the UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon for an investigation into the targeting of UN facilities - including by phosphorus weapons.

According to Israel Army Radio on Wednesday the decision - ordered by defence minister Ehud Barak - was made in anticipation that war crimes charges may be filed against IDF officers, who could face prosecution when they travel overseas."

#302
Ruvy
URL
January 23, 2009
09:22 AM

This article is addressed to all those who whine "criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitism".

The terrible warning of a Holocaust survivor deals with the ugly face of Jew-hatred that has emerged all across Europe (and elsewhere) in the last month.

From the article:

At my dinner table on Friday night, a holocaust survivor admits that she is trying to persuade her son to take his family out of Europe to America, Canada, Australia, Canada, Australia, Israel...'They say they can't leave me, but I tell them: "Go, get out. My parents left my grandparents behind in Berlin and brought me to safety in England. Now I want you to leave so that my grandchildren will be safe."' There is an unbearable desperation in her plea. But she has a point.

As tens of thousands of demonstrators march through the streets of Europe, the chants are modified but the message remains substantially intact: 'Hamas, Hamas, Hamas -- Jews to the Gas'. Or, more simply: 'Death to the Jews'. Many European Jews, even well-established, affluent Jews, have been checking the suitcase they keep packed under the bed. They have been here before and many are (albeit reluctantly) reading the writing on the wall.

To some extent I thought I was inured. I grew up in postwar apartheid South Africa where a subtle undercurrent of anti-Semitism was a fact of everyday life. So while I was disturbed by manifestations of mob anti-Semitism, I was also less vulnerable to shock. That's just how people are. Living in genteel, leafy Hampstead Garden Suburb provides an additional layer of protection from such crass outbursts.

But my sanguine state ends abruptly when I am out walking on Saturday. A hundred yards from my front door, I encounter the slogan, freshly painted in yellow, across the pavement: 'Kill the Filthy Jews'. I am shocked. And shocked that I am shocked. The message is too close for comfort. The leafy gentility is, after all, an illusion.

Those who study these matters tell me that the current convulsion of anti-Semitism is the worst in a generation. They also say that there is a direct, causal link with the Israeli military operation against Hamas in Gaza. Once upon a time, anti-Israel protesters insisted they were motivated by political animus against Zionism rather than racial prejudice against Jews. The Hamas Charter, which sets out of the guiding principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement -- xenophobic, racist and anti-Semitic -- removes the distinction.
......................

There can be no doubt that, for many, Israel-hatred is a cover for Jew-hatred. There can also be no doubt that this figleaf is becoming redundant. The contagion has passed through the membrane and the post-Holocaust taboo against open expressions of anti-Semitism is slipping away.

The Hamas Health Minister might have been stretching the truth when he said 'we have no quarrel with the Jewish people'. Sadly, though, he was not telling fibs when he said he and his comrades 'welcome and appreciate the stand taken by leading Jewish figures in Britain and around the world against Israel's aggression against Gaza and for the rights of our people'.

I am hoping that my psychiatrist will be able to explain why so many Jews have been propelled into the arms of those who seek their destruction. Precisely what part of the Hamas Charter are they defending?


My solution to all this is rather simple. I live in my country, keep a clip in the magazine, prepare for war and pray for peace. My ancestors suffered so that I could raise Jewish sons in a Jewish country. I intend to live.

Shabbat Shalom


#303
commonsense
January 30, 2009
09:22 PM

Dearest Ruvy,

Ceramic Camels for sale, would be a great gift. mainly white with various color markings. 150.00 for the pair of camels

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