OPINION

Why the Mumbai Terrorist Attacks Could Become America's Problem

November 27, 2008
Aditi Nadkarni

Reports are still coming in about the shocking night of terror in Mumbai. The Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus was attacked covering the usual target of Mumbai's common man. But if some news sources are to be believed then what is peculiar about these Mumbai attacks is that the terrorists seemed to be specifically targeting tourists, Americans and British nationals. Several scattered accounts provide information about the gunmen picking out people with US and British passports.

Mumbai has been attacked several times before. So has the rest of India. It is not uncommon for me to rush and dial home in the middle of a work day and make sure my family and friends are safe. I selfishly heave a sigh of relief when everybody I know is alive and well. This time when some of the headlines stated that foreigners, specifically Brits and Americans were being targeted I was puzzled. And then it made sense. With the security heightened in the US and in Britain as well in recent years, it is hard to target Americans and British nationals inside their own country. Mumbai security has never been particularly terrorist-proof and hosts tourists from all over the world. Everybody is aware that most foreign tourists reside in the Oberoi and Taj hotels in the city. While heinous acts of terrorism are not unusual in Mumbai, this attack though carried out in Mumbai, is in reality an attack on the people of 3 nations that should come together as a stronger, more united front in the fight against terrorism.

It will be a while before the complete agenda of this militant group is revealed. But there are some obvious truths that are staring us in the face as this tragedy unfolds. I find it hard to understand why so many bomb blasts and terrorists attacks later Mumbai's security is still not as stringent as it could be. The media glosses over the "spirit of Mumbai" that rises up the day after every senseless attack and then...nothing. Reports about investigations tracking the terrorists die down after a while. Life goes on like nothing happened for those of us who don't lose someone we love in the explosions or shootings in India. The Indian government has done absolutely squat towards increasing the security for the cities that have the potential to be terrorist targets. The international news reports all agree on one thing: the police response to the attacks was slow and people were still able to get through to the very entrance of the hotels even after the explosions and gunfire had begun. The rumor mill also reports that police cars fired shots at civilians in Mumbai. The questions being asked by the international news media include: How could a group of terrorists launch such a widespread attack within a commercial capital without anything being detected at all by the government or by the Indian intelligence? I cringe as I hear about the lack of training of the Indian police forces in tackling terrorist attacks and watch footage of policeman running around aimlessly as injured men and women are assisted, as is usual in Mumbai, by other civilians. The attention brought about by news of American hostages may put additional international pressure on India to make some much-needed changes in the system. If terrorists can arrive in boats through Gateway Of India and launch such a large-scale attack in a commercial capital of the nation, it really says abysmal things about a nation's homeland security.

The U.S too will now need to recognize and acknowledge that it cannot protect its citizens against terrorism and Islamic militants by X-raying shoes and handbags during airport security checks alone. Terrorist attacks can be carried out in foreign countries where security provisions are lax. It is possible that in the aftermath of this terrorist attack American leaders may wake up to the reality of terrorism being a global issue that the rest of the world has been dealing with for a very long time. Homeland security is within the borders but terrorism is not.

Aditi Nadkarni is a cancer researcher, a film reviewer and a poet; her many occupations are an odd yet fun miscellany of creative pursuits. Visit her blog for more of her articles and artistic as well as photographic exploits.
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Why the Mumbai Terrorist Attacks Could Become America's Problem

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Author: Aditi Nadkarni

 

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#1
BangaloreGuy
URL
November 27, 2008
01:48 AM

What about India eh?

I find it despicable that India(ns) have nothing to say beyond that its "cowardly" or that "my family n friends are safe"

#2
Gokul
URL
November 27, 2008
03:43 AM

We have to start reacting as responsible citizens, if we stick to our routine of shock-tear-forget we will go from bad to worse and this rotten govt. machinery wouldn't care as ever. Start standing up for your rights, awaken REACT, be MEN

*****
There were many "free" men during the British empire and there are many "slaves" even in independent India. It is all a question of self-esteem and commitment to the sense of dignity and honour as was sublimely displayed by men like Bal Gangadhar Tilak "Swarajya hamara janama siddha adhikar ha?' (Freedom is my birth right, nobody can snatch it). Mahatma Gandhi ["It is a fight to the finish"], Chandra Shekhar Azad "Azad hijiye hain Azad hi marenge [We are living free and we will die free], and Subhash could say with supreme confidence: "Today we are saying it, tomorrow you will see it." Every seed is a potential orchard. Swami Vivekananda knew the vast and infinite power of mind when he was urging the youth: "Make your nerves strong, what we want is muscles of iron and nerves of steel. We have wept long enough. No more weeping, but stand on your feet and be men". To him "Power! Power! Power!" speaks out from every page of the Upanishads. That is why he urges upon people to fill themselves with a revolutionary spirit.

"Arise! Awake! And stop not till the goal is achieved!"

#3
Deepti Lamba
URL
November 27, 2008
07:04 AM

Taj catches fire again.

#4
smallsquirrel
November 27, 2008
07:47 AM

aditi... agreed.

and why is no one talking about the fact that Nariman House was targeted, and there are still hostages there. Nariman House is a dwelling occupied by Jews, that also contains a Jewish house of worship. As a Jew and an American, I am shaken. As someone who loves India, I am heartbroken. As a human I am angered beyond belief.

#5
Ruvy
URL
November 27, 2008
08:55 AM

I am not qualified to comment on the aspects of this attack that deal with India, and according to reports coming out the Haba"d House, of the demands of these terrorists to talk about Kashmir.

But an Indian friend of mine has a cousin amongst the commandos surrounding the Taj Mahal Hotel in Mumbai. He posted a BBC story about the general goings-on on Facebook. And lo and behold, the Nariman House was not mentioned in the BBC story. No surprise here. The BBC are Jew-hatihg bastards who distort and lie every opportunity they get. But, bit by bit, it is becoming evident that Jews and Israelis have been specific targets of this attack.

I suspect that neither the Haba"d rabbi nor his wife sought out this attention from the Wahhabi influenced terrorists who have claimed responsibility for all this. But the Jew-hatred they preach is at the root of all this. This is a phony "religion of peace" masking itself as Islam and gives peace-loving Moslems a bad name.

The rabbi and his wife are guilty of what? Serving kosher meals to Jews visiting India? Are they "settlers" in some extended territory claimed by Israel?

I repeat, I'm not qualified to comment on the issues that THEY raise about Kashmir. But these terrorists have shown themselves to be less than scum, not even worth shitting upon. Their deaths, if and when they occur, will cleanse the earth of the some of the filth and the hatred they push down the throats of decent human beings.

This news is from Yediot Ahronot.

At least 7 hostages leave Oberoi hotel in Mumbai
.
Follow the link for the remaining news in the update.

#6
Seema
November 27, 2008
09:58 AM

What I find interesting is that people only speak up against a terrorist attack if somehow their own community, religion etc. are targeted. I have never seen such global response to any prior attacks in India. The 7-11 railway attacks were equally devastating but was not much talked about. I have a feeling that if it was only the CST station attacked nobody would have cared and nothing would have changed. I just hope the U.S does not go back to its "What rest of the world?" attitude if they suddenly find out that none of the hostages are in fact Americans.

The other thing is that American news sources are criticizing Indian security response but those in NYC on 9-11 probably remember the several mistakes that added to that tragedy. Nobody is prepared for a terrorist attack. I personally thought it was commendable that the Indian army was on the scene within hours of the attack. I do agree that security measures to prevent terrorist attacks should be improved.

This may seem like trivia but I just watched the film A Wednesday a few mins before this news broke out and realized it was on a Wednesday that this happened! I just had goosebumps.

#7
commonsense
November 27, 2008
09:58 AM

Ruvy:

"...He posted a BBC story about the general goings-on on Facebook. And lo and behold, the Nariman House was not mentioned in the BBC story. No surprise here. The BBC are Jew-hatihg bastards who distort and lie every opportunity they get.""

In a beyond words horrible situation for all Indians and non-Indians, trust Ruvy to grind his own axe. I came across many references to Nariman House and Israeli hostages in the BBC reports. Here for example:

""1225 An gunman holed up in Nariman House has asked the Indian government to talk and offered to release hostages, according to the Reuters news agency. He has phoned an Indian TV station to say he acted in response to the killing of Muslims by Indian troops in Kashmir.

Bobby Sinha, a tattooist who works close to Nariman House, where several Israelis are reportedly being held hostage by gunmen, says: I'm just near the Nariman building and commandos have just started firing. I'm still at work we couldn't leave last night. Right now a lot of crowds are moving away because the army has started shooting. I can see hundreds of army and police people.""


Link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7752003.stm

Go ahead Ruvy, use this terrorist tragedy for your own ends.

#8
commonsense
November 27, 2008
10:01 AM

the horror, the horror.

#9
commonsense
November 27, 2008
10:04 AM

Further to Ruvy's comment, the BBC site has links to Haaretz reporting in great detail about the Nariman House and the horror unfolding there. The latter newspaper of course, also does not meet Ruvy's standards, as he has indicated many times, even though it is an Israeli newspaper.

All this of course is a side-issue, considering the unspeakable mayhem these jehaadis have inflicted and continue to inflict.

#10
Ledzius
November 27, 2008
10:09 AM

cs, then what about the teflon desicritic?

#11
smallsquirrel
November 27, 2008
10:14 AM

oh come on seema, many people here even, not of Indian origin, have spoken up about every attack in India and not just ones that targeted people of our own groups.

and I have not heard one word of criticism from any of the news sources I have been listening to.

#12
Seema
November 27, 2008
10:39 AM

ss: I am not talking about this forum...you do realize that the discussions about this attacks are not limited to Desicritics, right? In general, most people comment on a terrorist attack only if their own nationality, religious community, race etc are targeted. In terms of humanity, there is something not quite right about that.

Just in case this matters SS, I am an America and am not indulging in the usual US-bashing one sees. This is valid criticism. Do you know how disturbing it is to watch scenes of absolute carnage in India, blood on railway stations, cinema theaters and hotels and THEN hear a news correspondent go on and on about how authorities need to make sure that "all the Americans get out OK"!

Also, you should've watched CNN (the only US news network that collaborated with a sister network in India) all of of last evening and this morning. All I heard was "Possible American hostages...Jewish rabbi", "poor security response", "injured did not receive immediate attention". I was shocked by correspondents criticizing security officials for "not cooperating with news reporters" and giving them an accurate update. The hostage situation is still on and this is what people are complaining about?

One of THE dumbest things I heard last night was a CNN correspondent Erica Hill speaking of tagging Afghanistan, Pakistan and India together as a group of nations that the US should be looking at in terms of terrorist activity. How one can treat 2 Islamic states and one democracy with a sweeping foreign policy dictum I fail to understand.

#13
Ruvy
URL
November 27, 2008
10:46 AM

trust Ruvy to grind his own axe I reported on what I saw at the BBC story posted at Facebook this morning.

I recently checked the BBC site and found that they had indeed added accounts about the Haba"d House in Mumbai - only later.

When it comes to Jews, they take their time reporting what's news, and always manage to either ignore it or distort it at first. This happened in July, when an Arab used a tractor to kill Jews on the Jaffa Road (right outside of their own studio!) and later, when a second Arab attempted to kill more Jews with his car near the Bell Gardens in J-lem.

But, indeed the BBC reportage is a mere side issue, considering the "unspeakable mayhem these jehaadis have inflicted and continue to inflict."

One can only pray for the well being of the hostages held by these terrorists, and pray that these terrorists are killed soon, so that those innocents whom they have killed are avenged speedily. They do not deserve the luxury of a trial.

the BBC site has links to Haaretz....

I've not looked at Ha'aretz, not because it is below my standards, but because I was able to get good reportage from other sources. Ha'aretz is good in Hebrew, but often portions of reports are missing from the English stories. Unfortunately, Globes, a business newspaper here, is similar. But, when the chance arises, I'll bookmark the site anyway. It was a valuable site in reporting on the Second Lebanon War.

#14
smallsquirrel
November 27, 2008
10:47 AM

seema, yes I am not an idiot. so yes I realize that conversations happen in places other than this. I simply meant this forum is an example of what I meant. and I do not care where you are in that I do not believe that people need be american or in the US to criticize the US.

I had not heard any criticism like the ones you mentioned. if it happened, that is terrible.

When I was watching CNN, I did not hear any criticism of the response. I did notice that they mentioned US citizens a lot, but that is natural. People in the US will be tuned to CNN to hear news of americans, like it or not. I agree that there is not news of the breakdown of victims, but that is now known at all. they have been sensitive to NRIs that they have spoken to who happened to be in Mumbai with family.

Erica Hill is not the brightest bulb in the socket.

#15
Aditi
November 27, 2008
11:05 AM

Smallquirrel

It actually is not that natural and we make it acceptable by telling ourselves it is. During the 9-11 attacks in the US, I happened to be in India and the news coverage there was very different. Several Indians too died in that attack but that was definitely not the focus of the news discussions in India. It would've been callous and terribly self-absorbed. I do see where Seema is coming from here. I have been watching CNN for a while now and I just am shocked at how blatantly they are focusing solely on the American hostages. Its funny and sad both that they are now referring to the terrorists as "American hostage-takers" :)) I am not making this up. I just heard this!

But I disagree about Erica Hill not being the brightest bulb in the socket. She is very smart, was the only one to cover live the 9-11 attacks and is a very skilled reporter (Yes, I'm a fan). I just think it is this disturbing "We care about the rest of the world only when Americans are taken hostage" attitude that is not restricted to Erica Hill.

The other day we had a fire alarm go off in the apartment complex. Everybody came out of their apartments and walked outside. We all stood in a large crowd as the fire engine came and firemen discovered someone's burnt turkey which could've led to a bigger fire eventually and maybe destroyed our homes too. Today I find myself wondering what might've happened if we did not have a centralized response system. A fire in somebody else's apartment could've cost us our safety even though we are very careful and very stringent about fire-safety measures. That is how terrorism is. You cannot protect one nation and ignore the others. And to think about the bigger picture, the media, the politicians and the people all need to change their attitudes and perspectives. In the face of this tragedy they can, at the very least, reach out to the Indian victims whose mention has not been made even once during the CNN coverage. If we cannot come together now and change our ways, we will never do it. It will never happen. And that would be a sad day for humanity.

#16
Sonali
November 27, 2008
11:18 AM

I totally agree with Seema. I am so sad that to realize that its only making international news because there were westerners involved and also all that news are covering is not a terror attack of a country or on communities of Mumbai that got affected but of foreigners. Also i watched Erika on CNN ...and she definitely was very very disappointing. When You are covering about a terror attack on that large scale how can you b so selfish to forget the victims as whole and be partial......

#17
Seema
November 27, 2008
11:18 AM

btw SS you could switch on CNN right at this moment and hear the British and American CNN correspondents coming together to criticize Indian intelligence for not having detected the attacks calling it a "disgrace", scoffing, rolling their eyes....it looks like people have very quickly forgotten the London subway attacks, 9-11 and the failure of more sophisticated "western" intelligence organizations.

#18
kerty
November 27, 2008
11:19 AM

Aditi

It is true that american media tends to have a fixation only with American lives and non-american lives seldom get any mileage in its scheme of things. Terrorists also have learnt to capitalize on it - they also single out american nationals because they know the terror will get American attention and desired impact.

#19
commmonsense
November 27, 2008
11:22 AM

Seema:

""What I find interesting is that people only speak up against a terrorist attack if somehow their own community, religion etc. are targeted.""

You make a good point there Seema - although on DC itself, you will notice the exceptions to your rule ie. CS, Aditi, Deepti and the countless others who do not try to create sectarian capital out of such tragedies by focusing on "their" community, religion, nationality etc. As you will see right on this thread, the sectarian chauvinists will be out in full force, pinpointing the blame on a variety of usual suspects and offering simplistic magic bullet solutions.

#20
smallsquirrel
November 27, 2008
11:24 AM

well, I do think it is natural for an american news channel, right or wrong, to mention american victims a lot. this is because people in this country looking for news of their loved ones overseas have few options and will go to either CNN or MSNBC. Is it wrong to skew the news, or to call the terrorists "american hostage-takers"? yes, that is too self-centered to be believed. UGH. I think the immediate coverage would be more centered as to the US citizens and if they are OK, and the longer-term coverage would be more equal... I would very much hope. I am not confident, but I would hope that is how it would play out.

I do not know that much about Ms. Hill, admittedly, but her coverage last night was annoying me, so I switched to something else.

#21
Sonali
November 27, 2008
11:26 AM

I completely agree with Seema and can relate to wat she is saying. I also noticed that and am very sad to see this Partiality ...........eRIKA FROM CNN is just really dumb and is doing a reallly bad job ..............

#22
commonsense
November 27, 2008
11:27 AM

Ruvy:

""When it comes to Jews, they take their time reporting what's news, and always manage to either ignore it or distort it at first. This happened in July, when an Arab used a tractor to kill Jews on the Jaffa Road (right outside of their own studio!) and later, when a second Arab attempted to kill more Jews with his car near the Bell Gardens in J-lem.""

Look Ruvy, you are deliberately and quite successfully trying not to get it. This thread is about a horrendous tragedy that has affected people of all stripes, religions, nationalities etc. For the moment at least, nobody gives two shakes of a fish's tail about your analysis of whatever...the fact that I respond to your inane rants should not be taken as an indicator of my deep interest in your rant. a teflon desi critic you are for sure. thanks ledzius.

#23
Ledzius
November 27, 2008
11:46 AM

Americans care mostly only about Americans and their priorities. Look at the way the repubs nominated Sarah Palin of all people. She didn't even know Africa was a continent, not a country. That pretty much sums up the attitude of the American heartland - you are a qualified "world leader" if you are a church-going soccer mom who hadn't held a passport till after 40 and with no clue about the rest of the world.

Which is fine as long as they keep to themselves and not poke their noses into other peoples' affairs. You cannot play both sides at the same time.

#24
Ruvy
URL
November 27, 2008
11:49 AM

CS,

nobody gives two shakes of a fish's tail about your analysis of whatever...

You raised the issue, CS. If you don't want a response, keep quiet. I don't give a rat's ass what you think - or don't think.

Unfortunately for us Jews, we are being targetted, along with Brits and Americans, in this vicious terror attack. Whether you like that or not is irrelevant. Smallsquirrel noted, and I quote, "and why is no one talking about the fact that Nariman House was targeted, and there are still hostages there. Nariman House is a dwelling occupied by Jews, that also contains a Jewish house of worship. As a Jew and an American, I am shaken."

She was also angered and saddened. Having seen this all my life, it is no surprise to me, but, like her, I am also angered. Unlike her, I'm willing to point the finger of Jew-hatred. Were it up to me, the BBC would have no office in Israel, and would have to be content with reporting from Nicosia, as they had to years ago.

But it isn't up to me....

#25
commonsense
November 27, 2008
11:49 AM

Seema,

Further to your comment "What I find interesting is that people only speak up against a terrorist attack if somehow their own community, religion etc. are targeted.", here is predictable Kerty mouthing off a "magic bullet" solution and there will be many others in the same mode(from another thread, but on the same topic):

Kerty:

"Simply having an Islamic face to terrorism is not good enough to fight terrorism, terror must have a hindu face too in order to find its resolve to fight terrorism"

#26
smallsquirrel
November 27, 2008
12:02 PM

ledz, uh, please. you're oh so very tiring. Obama won, which means the majority of the country found the other option unacceptable. again, you're just a hater.

stick to the topic.

India needs your support and prayers more than we need your old tired rhetoric.

#27
commonsense
November 27, 2008
12:33 PM

good try ruvy...

#28
kerty
November 27, 2008
12:38 PM

CS

My comment was in the context of why India is soft on terrorism and why nothing get done. Here is comment in proper context:

"How come mere dozen terrorists could hold at ransom, whole of Mumbai, whole of mumbai police, elite army, elite NSG commandos, for hours on end, killing and injuring hundreds of people? The rescue operations and personnel never looked in control. They looked half-hazard, unplanned, chaotic, knee-jerk. They lacked tools, proetctive gears, planning,
intelligence, resolve. Who is to blame for it?

As usual, this government was too busy cooking up a phantom of 'hindu' terror while jehadis were plotting right under its nose. The real tragedy is that, like so many other terror events, this one too will pass and forgotten soon. And if frustrated and terrified indians were to take matters of their security in their own hands, we can count on this government to spring to action and pull out all stops. Suddenly, hetherto mute media would find its zeal and resolve to fight 'hindu' terror. It needs parity with Hindus to find its voice, its self-righteousness, its resolve. Simply having an Islamic face to terrorism is not good enough to fight terrorism, terror must have a hindu face too in order to find its resolve to fight terrorism. "

Indian establishment suffers from insurable ideological complusions that requires it to ride on jahadis, missionaries, maoists, marxists and extremists of every other stripe. It can not take any action without suffering political backlash and loss of votebanks. Be it lynching, riots or terrorism, it has to remain a mute spectator - only when hindus react to riots or terrorism that it can find its voice and moral compass. That is what makes India a soft state, a sitting duck, a terrorist safe heven.

#29
commonsense
November 27, 2008
01:34 PM

me no bite

#30
Sandeep
November 27, 2008
01:36 PM

You are bunch of idiots called desicritics!!

Instead of supporting the country in this time of crisis your lot is busy dishing out smart assed
comments.

Wankers!

#31
Aditi
November 27, 2008
01:40 PM

Sandeep and pray what precisely is your genius idea of "supporting one's country"? If I am not mistaken you just dished out a pretty smart-assed comment yourself! Welcome to the wankers' club! :)

#32
Shalini
November 27, 2008
01:53 PM

I am an Indian to the core.

I have never till date pondered on why there are so many so called terrorist activities happening in India. I have not done anything that could or might have to a certain extend prevented such activity.

I am 38 and am ashamed to say that I have only voted twice in my lifetime. Though the reasons are quite a few, like the authorities not willing to include my name in the list, not issuing my voters id even after the procedures are over. But the fact remains that I did not fight for my rights when needed.

When all those multinationals got build, when the cities of India got more expansions and the villages got neglected, when more 5 star hotels got built instead of improving the agricultural projects in rural India, when the rockets were launched to the moon, I kept quite.

I kept quite when the youth of my country found that the easy way to satify their power and hunger quest was sort to a cause that breed violence and kill each other. And I was in a way happy that these youth are being called terrorists and tracked down and killed for no reason of theirs but motives of other more powerful and money hungry rulers in the country.

I am ashamed that I had enjoyed the cricket match, trying to hide the fact that we are nothing but tools of exploitation and among the numerous fools around the country tried to blame others for not bringing justice to all of us here. I hate myself for being one among the millions who cared more about whether a particular cricket match would be played or not inspite of all the turmoil and harships in the country.

I wish I had done something more!

#33
Aaman
URL
November 27, 2008
01:58 PM

Shalini, you can do your bit by keeping faith in an open society that affirms our core principles of liberal democracy and freedom and also perhaps by expressing yourself through open platforms.

#34
samu
November 27, 2008
02:03 PM

i agree with shalini

#35
samu
November 27, 2008
02:03 PM

i agree with shalini

#36
JustinBerrings
November 27, 2008
02:03 PM

There's a mix of people in this mess. Apparently, the hostage-takers were targeting certain nationals but the Indian security guards and commandos are certainly not asking for Identification before they decide whom to rescue. So, let's stop the pathetic moaning about who's not getting top billing or top treatment.

#37
jose francisco
November 27, 2008
02:05 PM

I am a Chicano. 3rd generation American, born from grandparents who lived in Mexico during the Mexican Revolution of 1910-1920. Let us stop talking about US media, and the general scheme of the situation beyond our control. Us Chicanos have survived the racist attitudes of generations of American immigrants from Europe. We have prospered and are poised to take over the population of this nation in 3 generations. It was done by making babies, working for a living and keeping true to our beliefs that have had roots 10,000 years in the past. For God's sake, stop the argument and go on with your lives fully aware of the struggle against terrorism, corruption, racism and religious pogroms..Chicanos have.

#38
Bharat Mata
URL
November 27, 2008
02:15 PM

The real point is that India needs to take care of its own business. Here's the realityy: 1) there are numerous heros in Mumbai's terrorist attacks involving soldiers, citizens, and hotel staff; 2) this was a complete intelligence failure - don't fool yourself...it was; 3) response could have been faster; 4) Indians have come together once again as ONE; 5) lets take care of these terrorists now!!

#39
Bharat Mata
URL
November 27, 2008
02:15 PM

The real point is that India needs to take care of its own business. Here's the realityy: 1) there are numerous heros in Mumbai's terrorist attacks involving soldiers, citizens, and hotel staff; 2) this was a complete intelligence failure - don't fool yourself...it was; 3) response could have been faster; 4) Indians have come together once again as ONE; 5) lets take care of these terrorists now!!

#40
Bharat Mata
URL
November 27, 2008
02:15 PM

The real point is that India needs to take care of its own business. Here's the realityy: 1) there are numerous heros in Mumbai's terrorist attacks involving soldiers, citizens, and hotel staff; 2) this was a complete intelligence failure - don't fool yourself...it was; 3) response could have been faster; 4) Indians have come together once again as ONE; 5) lets take care of these terrorists now!!

#41
Bharat Mata
URL
November 27, 2008
02:15 PM

The real point is that India needs to take care of its own business. Here's the realityy: 1) there are numerous heros in Mumbai's terrorist attacks involving soldiers, citizens, and hotel staff; 2) this was a complete intelligence failure - don't fool yourself...it was; 3) response could have been faster; 4) Indians have come together once again as ONE; 5) lets take care of these terrorists now!!

#42
bharat mata
November 27, 2008
02:16 PM

The real point is that India needs to take care of its own business. Here's the realityy: 1) there are numerous heros in Mumbai's terrorist attacks involving soldiers, citizens, and hotel staff; 2) this was a complete intelligence failure - don't fool yourself...it was; 3) response could have been faster; 4) Indians have come together once again as ONE; 5) lets take care of these terrorists now!!

#43
justinberrings
November 27, 2008
02:19 PM

Gokul, thanks for quoting great thinkers at this time: Tilak, Subash Chandra Bose, and others. Deepak Chopra has also come out and spoken. His warnings against a Hindu backlash are to be heeded. First of all, that would be cowardly and more innocent people would probably be hurt. As a civilization, India has faced a longer history of inter-religious tension than a lot other countries, and it hasn't resorted to the state-sponsored ethnic cleansing found elsewhere. Now more than ever (I echo Deepak Chopra's words), we don't want to see a Hindu backlash. Let this be handled not by civilians but by the NSG and the paramilitary as it should be.

#44
kerty
November 27, 2008
02:20 PM

Lez

You forget that India has its own sarah plain - The indian version of Palin inherited the dynasty in a dowery, she did not became Indian citizen for decades and carries Italy's dual citizenship till date, she fled India to safety during BD war, someone who hardly knew Indian languages or Indian cultures, one who has to read speeches without understanding a thing. Unlike Palin, she does not aspire merely to be VP or heart-beat away from power - she aspires to be the only power center of India, the real power center behind puppet PM, and hold extra-constitutional powers without accountability. What does that say about attitudes of Indian heartland?

#45
TruthApparent
URL
November 27, 2008
02:22 PM

Why does everybody seems to be interested in being verbose and circumventing the obvious truth of Islam versus Democratic values and the India vs Pak+Bangla parallel that is so clearly emerging in South Asia.

Attack on Jews, Brits & Americans and the fact that the terrorists originate from Pakistan is enough reason to believe that this is a new chapter in global jihad. Time for India to bomb terror factories in PoK.

#46
Sandeep
November 27, 2008
02:29 PM

Aditi - You don't need genius ideas.

Just solidarity.

Try and not be negative about the actions and efforts which people are putting in to resolve the crisis.





#47
ai
November 27, 2008
02:38 PM

Let's move on from Ruvy and give thanks that 8 people have now been released from the Nariman.

#48
justinberrings
November 27, 2008
02:44 PM

Clearly, the dominant approach to combating terrorism has been a resounding failure.

Good surveillance and counterintelligence are indispensable, and in that India has lagged behind the US, UK and certain European countries.

But beyond that, there needs to be large-scale conflict resolution. And I do not mean "love one another". Rather, all that supermacist garbage that underlies most of human conflict has to be systematically extricated and dumped in the mounting trash of human ideology.

#49
Ruvy
URL
November 27, 2008
02:46 PM

According to Aaman, Aditi's article got recognition from the BBC in one of its reports. I don't much care for the BBC, as noted upthread, but recognition is still recognition.

Good on you, Aditi!

#50
justinberrings
November 27, 2008
02:52 PM

Jose, there's a lot we can learn from the Chicano struggle and progress. However, we already tried making babies and there's no shortage of them in India. We need political solutions to problems with a long history.

#51
Aditi
November 27, 2008
02:54 PM

Sandeep: A nation when it truly grows up has citizens who can take constructive criticism. On 7-11 the trains were attacked. Has the security at railway stations changed in Mumbai? Is there a better terrorist attack-response plan at public places? A bunch of terrorists were able to enter the city with automatic weapons and grenades in BOATS at The Gateway Of India and if we are not critical of the system that allowed this to happen we are actually doing a great disservice to the Indian citizens who suffer at the hands of terrorists. Recognizing what is wrong to begin fixing it is not lack of solidarity; it is just practicality and foresight. The truth is one does actually need "genius ideas" that you don't have and less of the bullcrap and empty rhetoric about patriotic solidarity that you do.

#52
Ruvy
URL
November 27, 2008
03:02 PM

Let's move on from Ruvy....

The only reason Ruvy has been around to keep an eye on this story is that the business that Ruvy gets his work from is in Mumbai - and is likely closed today do to the situation in the city. So, Ruvy has nothing to work on and has had the day off.

If your country's commandos are done cleaning up the mess the terrorists have made in Mumbai, Ruvy can move on from you.

#53
none
November 27, 2008
03:38 PM

greetings.
as long as you live among others, you are manipulated by tremendous forces, that none of your current abilities would help you to comprehend even partly. all those innocent who suffered and died in the global chess like game, including most of you, are the manipulated crowd, whether you like to admit it, or not. and you talk about politics, etc.. :) the question is why? first, the correct enemy should be defined, then clear it out. but the problem is, that the enemy is built into our DNA - survival at any cost. every human is bound to this rule with exception to prophets. "the strong is the right one" rules the world and it will only fail when the last, genetically corrupted human will fail breathless. i advise, you all cry in silence till your masks fall off you, then reach out to comment on your perceptions. those so called terrorists, are mere zombies, and the deaths of innocent will not be revenged because there is no justice; it cannot exist in this wolrd as a special gift from god, to humans, i mean you are too important to yourselves. (please put off your comments intended for me for a while, and then try again, and see the difference :)

#54
justinberrings
November 27, 2008
03:44 PM


Sandeep, there is no doubt that Indian intelligence and counterintelligence failed to detect the attackers, let alone deter them.

Hard as it may be to admit, this would not have happened in the U.S. -- at least not since September 11 2001.

India must not be crippled by paranoia and obsessive wariness either. But there definitely has to be an upgrade in intelligence and security.

Then, at the communal level too, there's much to be done to defuse the Hindu-Muslim tension. India cannot afford 150 million muslims to feel alienated from nation building and cultural tolerance.

#55
akshay
November 27, 2008
03:50 PM

yaar nothing will happen to these terrorists - they will be freed and kept alive by the stupid indian politicians - as fixed deposits to reap votes in the forth coming elections!
i can bet on that one, and i have full-fledged confidence in our tainted ministers!

now the country's image solely depends on our COURAGEOUS JAWAANS - who will fight them out - and you know, just for 3700 indian rupees a month = equivalent to 86 us dollars a month.
isn't it amazing that patriotism can be reaped without Massive economic status.
God bless our only nontainted organization - the military, navy and the airforce.

#56
friedtoad
November 27, 2008
04:20 PM

The Jews held in Mumbai are Hasidim who settled there preach Noahic law in a polytheistic country. WTF?

The reason Jews are being attacked all over the world is because they have mistakenly assumed it possible to steal people's lands and culture without repercussions. Now they are being shown that they were mistaken.

#57
friedtoad
November 27, 2008
04:21 PM

The Jews held in Mumbai are Hasidim who settled there preach Noahic law in a polytheistic country. WTF?

The reason Jews are being attacked all over the world is because they have mistakenly assumed it possible to steal people's lands and culture without repercussions. Now they are being shown that they were mistaken.

#58
friedtoad
November 27, 2008
04:21 PM

The Jews held in Mumbai are Hasidim who settled there preach Noahic law in a polytheistic country. WTF?

The reason Jews are being attacked all over the world is because they have mistakenly assumed it possible to steal people's lands and culture without repercussions. Now they are being shown that they were mistaken.

#59
Ruvy
URL
November 27, 2008
04:41 PM

The reason Jews are being attacked all over the world is because they have mistakenly assumed it possible to steal people's lands and culture without repercussions. Now they are being shown that they were mistaken.

Is this why they were murdered off in Europe 65 years ago? Is this why they were brutally attacked in Russia in pogrom after pogrom between 1881 and 1905? Is this why Dreyfuss was sent to Devil's Island in 1895 to the shouts of a bas les juifs! Is this why Jews were massacred in Syria in 1840? Is this why the Catholics shits ran an inquisition? Is this why the Christians murdered off thousands of Jews in their Crusades?

I don't think so.

Hey, fried toad, don't get me started listing all the shit the world has done to my people BECAUSE WE WERE GUESTS IN SOMEONE ELSE'S COUNTRY WITHOUT A REFUGE TO CALL HOME BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE HAD DRIVEN US OUT OF IT! I may be on here a few hours.

Keep your lectures to yourself until you learn some history. And keep your presumptions about what the Haba"d Houses do to yourself until you learn what they do.

We don't waste time preaching to foreigners, or hustling converts like Christians do.

#60
TruthApparent
November 27, 2008
05:08 PM

Appreciate #Ruvy's observations. India needs to learn a lot about how to deal with these Islamic barbarians from Israel. Speak to them in their own language of brute force. Non-violence, debate and dialogue is for the civilized and not for supremacist scoundrels like Jihadists. And yes their rabid antisemitism is perhaps the most striking aspect of lack of humanity in their ideology.

#friedtoad's comments only indicates ignorance and monumental stupidity.

#61
commonsense
November 27, 2008
06:38 PM

Ruvy:

""According to Aaman, Aditi's article got recognition from the BBC in one of its reports. I don't much care for the BBC, as noted upthread, but recognition is still recognition.""

while this is good, at the risk of appearing to be speaking for Aditi (she can stand up for herself), i doubt if she wrote this for "recognition" or saleswomanship. there is more to life than being recognized, although it sure does help, if someone is promoting a voice of sanity when it is needed most, as Aditi is, rather than inflammatory sectarianism as a quite a few unnamed but quite obvious individuals, are.

#62
commonsense
November 27, 2008
06:40 PM

gee, could everyone please just ignore ruvy and focus on the topic at hand?

#63
commonsense
November 27, 2008
06:44 PM

please don't feed the trolls who will try to capitalize on this immense tragedy thru slick salesmanship, unless you have excess food on hand...no need to name any trolls since they are pretty visible.

#64
Amit Gupta
November 27, 2008
06:45 PM

Here is my Hypothesis of how the Mumbai terrorist attack was made possible:
The Pakistan Marine Agency has been kidnapping and capturing Indian fishing vessels for the last 5 years. Look at this news link:
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0603/176.html
Pakistan then puts these kidnapped fishermen into jail and periodically decides to either release them or to keep them languishing in jail depending on whether it wants to take favors from India to release its citizens languishing in Indian jails for much more heinous crimes.

The Indian government has done nothing, zilch, nada in the last many years to take care of the above situation.

The terrorists apparently took this situation a step further. They took the help of the Pakistan Marine Agency to kill/kidnap and hijack an Indian fishing trawler. Next they loaded up the vessel with explosives and grenades manufactured in Pakistani factories. Finally they entered Mumbai (with all their prior research and review of the cities famous landmarks and their floor plans) and launched these attacks.

Conclusion: The above goes to show that there are several factors leading to this tragedy:
1) the lackadaisical attitude of the government in dealing firmly with Pakistan
2) the apathy of Indian citizens who were happy to be tolerant and look the other way
3) the absence of policing security and law system that protects the citizenry proactively
4) the lack of political will to impose strong laws - the Congress is a leader on this
5) the willingness to negotiate with terrorists - the BJP created a horrible precedent during the Indian
Airlines hijacking incident few years ago
6) the lack of cool self-assessment of what India's strengths and weaknesses are in the security and law/order area
7) opening up of borders with Pakistan - a country that is predominantly lawless and where the government only pretends to govern. We have spent too much time trying to build a relationship with a government that cannot control its internal environment
ignoring the dangers posed by allowing Pakistanis to enter Indian territory by air, land and water without realizing the dangers it would pose to Indian lives
9) constant interference in the functioning of the defence forces by the Indian government
10) not investing in intelligence, security and training that is world class to ensure that the police can deal with such incidents
11) agnostic Indian citizen psyche that refuses to get united and is happy in living in denial untill they are not personally attacked
12) a citizenry that does not hold its politicians responsible for their actions.

#65
kaffir
November 27, 2008
06:45 PM

Aditi, do you really think we all are interested in hearing constructive criticism? Are you? Living in our separate boxes of ideologies and identities, we're more interested in one-upping others and being proved right, and proving the other wrong. Who has the time to *listen* to what the other person has to say when we've already labeled them (left/right/conservative/liberal/anti-Hindu/Islamophobe/anti-USA/)?

#66
smallsquirrel
November 27, 2008
06:51 PM

hey friedtoad, get one thing straight... jews do not proselytize. they do a lot of other things, but proselytizing is not one of them.

and if they are there in Mumbai and settled there, they are not "settlers"

do not lump all jews in one pile. it's really sophomoric and pretty fucking stupid.

#67
kaffir
November 27, 2008
07:03 PM

commonsense, pray, enlighten us how are Ruvy's comments sectarian in nature? From what I've read on the internet, there are plenty of Muslims who mention Jewish conspiracy as a reason behind many acts, so giving them some constructive criticism is quite fair. That should not be interpreted as Islamophobia or inflammatory sectarianism. Jupiter knows, Islam and its peaceful adherents need to grow up soon from their stupidity and superiority complex of 'one true god', 'dar-ul-harb' and selective invocation of 'ummah.'

As for troll, your (non sequitur) comments seem to border on trollish behavior too. Healer heal thyself? :)

#68
Chandra
November 27, 2008
07:12 PM

from Mumbai

Some of the above discussions as usual are frivolous. Most of us here are saddened and angry at this point in time. The fact that a few terrorists have escaped and are probably still in the city is a frightening thought.
Nevertheless, we will all resume our 'normal' lives again today.......What is on PVR today? This will go on until the next attack.......will we ever learn?

#69
commonsense
November 27, 2008
08:06 PM

kaffir:

""commonsense, pray, enlighten us how are Ruvy's comments sectarian in nature?"

pray a bit harder and i just might. the issue at hand is not whether to used Ruvy's words "The BBC are Jew-hatihg bastards who distort and lie every opportunity they get...." (comment #5 if you care to scroll or troll above)nor specifically about jews, christians, hindus, muslims, whatever. It is a national tragedy and as Aditi points out, with international dimensions. Let's soberly reflect, as human beings, about what has happened, rather than mounting our pet sectarian hobby horses and galloping away to who knows where. There is plenty of blame to go around, but it would help if sectarian/communal whatever you want to call it passions are at least for some time, not stoked. I doubt that this will make sense to some folks, but then commonsense is always in short supply, especially in times of crises.

#70
commonsense
November 27, 2008
08:12 PM

And it is not just ruvy i meant to draw attention to. "friedtoad" is trolling too, with a vengeance, spewing anti-semitism to the hilt.

#71
Varun
URL
November 27, 2008
08:31 PM

I have written a detailed article analyzing the political factors that caused the Indian intelligence agencies to be caught unawares of the terror attacks being planned. Read on:

http://commonsensetopics.blogspot.com/2008/11/mumbai-terror-attacks-colossal.html

#72
commonsense
November 27, 2008
09:12 PM

i'm sorry i got involved in this discussion at all. as chandra rightly points out, and he is right there in mumbai, this is not a time for crass one-upmanship or onewomaship. many comments here are diversionary, egoistical etc. these series of terrorist attacks are just shocking, tragic and sad.

#73
Chiraag
November 27, 2008
09:47 PM

I think this is a turning point in India's foreign policy and national security. After the situation in Mumbai has been resolved, the government needs to take ACTIONABLE steps to:
1. Ensure 100% safety of its own citizens and put in the right laws/bodies/organisations etc. in place to enforce such mechanisms. Ideally, I would like grassroots movements to be started like Anti-Terror Societies/ Support Groups where even the common man can be involved.
2. Stop bickering with Pakistan because this is problem is not limited to Pakistan and it is not in India's best interest to continuously keep blaming its neighbour instead it should GO AFTER terrorists actively (the PM himself used the term "any cost") outside Indian territory in order to protect its own national sovereignity. We need to take a more pro-active and offensive approach.

On a dual note, the citizens need to use this as a moment to take ownership of their own country and take pride in solving grassroots problems like poverty, education, corruption etc. because it is these very basic problems that give rise to larger problems that we have just witnessed in Mumbai over the past few days.

#74
Chiraag
November 27, 2008
09:48 PM

I think this is a turning point in India's foreign policy and national security. After the situation in Mumbai has been resolved, the government needs to take ACTIONABLE steps to:
1. Ensure 100% safety of its own citizens and put in the right laws/bodies/organisations etc. in place to enforce such mechanisms. Ideally, I would like grassroots movements to be started like Anti-Terror Societies/ Support Groups where even the common man can be involved.
2. Stop bickering with Pakistan because this is problem is not limited to Pakistan and it is not in India's best interest to continuously keep blaming its neighbour instead it should GO AFTER terrorists actively (the PM himself used the term "any cost") outside Indian territory in order to protect its own national sovereignity. We need to take a more pro-active and offensive approach.

On a dual note, the citizens need to use this as a moment to take ownership of their own country and take pride in solving grassroots problems like poverty, education, corruption etc. because it is these very basic problems that give rise to larger problems that we have just witnessed in Mumbai over the past few days.

#75
Ruvy
URL
November 27, 2008
10:46 PM

Kaffir,

Thank you for your kind words.

Chandra,

When we lived in J-lem we saw many terror attacks, and even walked away from a bomb or two. But none of them were on the scale of what Mumbaikers have been forced to experience over the last 48 hours or so.

There is no "getting back to normal" after these events. There never is. There is just going on.

I wish you and the millions of other Mumbaikers G-dspeed in going on. The small silver lining is that this time, at least, it was only foreigners who were targeted by these killers. That my own people were among those foreigners is little comfort to me, but apparently most, if not all have come out safely. This time.

One shudders to contemplate the tragedy that might have occurred had the target be broader in scope.

CS, you are barely worth the effort, but, like you, "I doubt if she wrote this for "recognition" or saleswomanship. There is more to life than being recognized, although it sure does help..."

A cmpliment paid in all honesty is still a compliment. Take your small minded viciousness and peddle it elsewhere.

#76
Santosh Kumar
November 27, 2008
10:46 PM

The muslims need to do a lot of introspection and come out of their victimhood mentality. We have had muslim president, muslim film stars, azim premji was the richest Indian ahead of Mukesh Ambani. This is a competitive world and people care less if you are a muslim as long as you are smart and hard working. So, my message to Indian muslims is study hard, work hard, enjoy life and dont be too serious about religion because religion is getting obsolete. Be spiritual and find the best from other religions like I do, I am a hindu and go for buddhist prayer meetings, my spiritual teacher was a jew, I live with jains and have great respect for jesus christ.

#77
Gokul
URL
November 27, 2008
11:07 PM

How many more days till we all forget this and move to oter pet-peeves to vent out, how many more days till we stick to inaction?

#78
Gokul
URL
November 27, 2008
11:18 PM

How many more days till we all forget this and move to other pet-peeves to vent out/weep/be hysterical about........ how many more days till we stick to inaction? and ensure that we stay this way, status quo?.

Is it that everyone wants only to have a favourite pin-head?, is it that all needs to vent and thats it, is it that internal-attribution, ownership and action is not at all in the scheme of our lives?

#79
Sandeep
November 27, 2008
11:40 PM

What do u do when you reach a point beyond frustration, anger, helplessness,fear and remorse? how you deal at this point??

As someone who escaped being blown away in 2006 blast, currently out of India struggling to reach family and friends, praying for their safety and well being all the while.... is at point beyond all emotions.

I have no clue how to react at this state. just allowing to receive all the information from all the sources, practically glued to NDTV live for last 30 hrs. At times I was overwhelmed by the news, relived what I faced in 2006....but most of the times I was blank.

#80
justinberrings
November 27, 2008
11:53 PM

Santosh, that's good advice. Indian muslims have hope in India more than they do in any other land where they are the minority.

Commonsense, yes, there's always a degree of egotism that'll appear in these discussions but hopefully, those genuinely interested in dialogue attain a better perspective.

Amit Gupta, that analysis is depressing but plausible. In general, the Indian govt has been lax and the citizenry have their own day-to-day preoccupations.

#81
justinberrings
November 27, 2008
11:59 PM


Sandeep, somehow harness that emotional energy for the good of the country and all. This dialogue has not been in vain.

#82
blokesablogin
November 28, 2008
12:10 AM

Aditi, just as you rightly mentioned that the US will need to recognize the truly "global reach of terror", you are way off the mark if you think the "tightened homeland security" will help. We are talking of a highly chaotic 15 million people city aka Mumbai. For that level of "organization", we need a benevolent dictatorship to "clean" stuff up. That is not going to happen anytime. The politicians use terrorism for their own petty needs to win elections. The corrupt officials are cohorts with the local mafia which is linked to some international terrorist groups. Super rich Mumbai based business men like the Ambanis do not care about any of this as long as their tower is not under siege. They too have their goons who get the dirty job done. As for the middle class- how many more battles can they fight- economic, social, temporal (it is so difficult to commute), political etc.

#83
LighterVein
URL
November 28, 2008
12:13 AM

Agree with Shalini on something we could have done more. I need to do something. As a common man, I plan to do one thing which is neither going to remove terrorists from the scene nor is it going to stop this kind of attack on Mumbai.
I live in Bangalore and plan to start from there. I, hopefully with my friends and corporate giving program of my organisation, will slowly but surely start with getting the city cleaned up.
Starting with an area I live in and/or my friends live in and try to set in place a way in which the that bombs cannot be placed in dustbins/small drainage holes/ open nullahs/ in a plastic bag behind a bust stop.
This, though is not a direct hit to stop these mfs but should help easily spot unwanted bags and may help save lives. I surely hope this effor does not go futile and can start sooner than later.

#84
commonsense
November 28, 2008
02:58 AM

Ruvy:

""The small silver lining is that this time, at least, it was only foreigners who were targeted by these killers."'

as horrible as it is to engage in such bean-counting, such a horrendous tragedy as it is, out of a total of over 125 deaths, 9 were foreigners. this issue is beyond foreigners vs. indians, or one sect/community versus the other...

#85
commonsense
November 28, 2008
03:07 AM

ruvy:

Ruvy:

""One shudders to contemplate the tragedy that might have occurred had the target be broader in scope.""

???? it was as broad as it gets. one shudders to think what might have happened had it been broader???

Ruvy:
""The small silver lining is that this time, at least, it was only foreigners who were targeted by these killers."'

what silver lining??

Ruvy:
""That my own people were among those foreigners is little comfort to me, but apparently most, if not all have come out safely. This time.""

I am relieved and happy for anyone who survived. They and all those who neelessly perished were all, without ambiguity, "my people". All humans except the terrorists are "my people" regardless of religious affiliation.

Ruvy:
"Take your small minded viciousness and peddle it elsewhere."

sage advice, but wasted in the wrong direction.



#86
Ruvy
URL
November 28, 2008
06:07 AM

It may pay for those in the nit picking business to consider what the goal of these terrorists were before picking nits.

The argument that the number of Indians was much greater than the number of foreigners dead presupposes that the goal of the terrorists was to kill people. This is the standard goal of the suicide attacker with the bomb belt: he goes into the pizza parlor where scores of people are eating lunch and blows himself up. The more dead, the better. But the goal appears to have been very different here. Had sheer murder been the goal, there would have been many thousands of deaths already. The hotels and other sites seized would have been blown up, along with gas stations nearby to spread flames and terrorize more people before they died. The Jews at the Haba"d House would have all been machine-gunned to death.

This has not happened.

The goal was to target and seize hostages, specifically Americans, Brits and Jews/Israelis. That is what the behavior of the terrorists has appeared to indicate. Those who died were "collateral" dead. I'm not saying that the terrorists regretted killing them. And certainly, I'm not minimizing the loss of those who died to their loved ones. But the goal was not necessarily their deaths. So judging any of these events by the number of dead, and the nationalities of the dead is a red herring.

Hence the "silver lining" of the targetting. If the targetting had been taking any hostage, hostages in large numbers, or killing civilians in their thousands, one shudders to think of the tertible consequences that would have ensued.

Understanding this - the goasl of the enemy - is vital to figuring out what to do in the face of this kind of threat.

#87
GB
November 28, 2008
07:08 AM

Aditi:"Homeland security is within the borders but terrorism is not. "
Good article Aditi, But it is our govt duty to prevent such attacks in our soil. Hope our politicians will realise that.

#88
commonsense
November 28, 2008
09:09 AM

in addition to the hotels and nariman house, the major train station, a hospital, a major cinema were struck (all used by non-foreigners) and there was an exploding taxi on the streets. this was hardly a concerted attack exclusively on "foreigners", as the initial reports suggested. this is so horrendous an incident, designed to send a macabre message of insecurity in the biggest Indian city; it makes my stomach churn. i fail to see any silver lining and see no point in arguing abuot the obvious, much less nit picking. no more from me. what has happened is grave enough to concentrate my attention on the incident, not my own ego.

#89
kerty
November 28, 2008
10:59 AM

Ruvy #86

Good observations. They make sense.

#90
Aditi
November 28, 2008
11:40 AM

Ruvy: I could actually make a very similar argument and come to a different conclusion. Firstly, the hostages did not include only Americans, Brits and Israelis. Pls check your information. The hostages just released have included Chines, japanese, americans, french, canadians and other nationalities. if america or israel were attacked and Indians had died, those would be "collateral deaths". but india was attacked and the only thing that is unique this time is that there were "foreigners" (I repeat, not just Americans/ Jews but ALL nationalities) among those who were killed, taken hostage or injured; this is likely because high-profile and touristy places were attacked to get more attention to the attack. Terror is more effective when widespread. If they just wanted to take Americans/ jews/ Brits hostage, they didn't have to blow hand grenades in the hotels, shoot and kill the kitchen staff and open fire on the VT railway station or at the cinema theater (these btw have just not been covered that extensively because "foreigners were not involved" but the death tolls at these places is actually higher). It has also been discovered that most of the "hostages" may have been people who were hiding in their hotel rooms scared. I am merely trying to demonstrate that we could all argue endlessly about how our own "religion, community, race, nationality" were more targeted than others. But instead of "nitt picking" the targets, we need to realize that this one terrorist attack has the potential to unite the rest of us because the victims were not really restricted to one nationality, religion or race. The message of the terrorists was clear: "It is us against the rest of you". And if we don't get it now, I don't know what else it will take.

#91
Kerty
November 28, 2008
11:56 AM

Aditi #90

Good observations. All your postings on this tragic event have been spot on.

#92
Friedtoad
November 28, 2008
12:37 PM

[EDITED]

#93
smallsquirrel
November 28, 2008
12:40 PM

yeah sorry Ruvy, but for sure the target was not just foreigners. Victoria terminus, especially at that time of night, is packed full of locals. this is like striking at the heart of mumbai, on many levels. or, if you wish, a kick to the groin. the strikes at foreigners was almost a show... you're not safe here... they even let some go, and if they wanted they could have killed many more. They were holed up in those hotels learning about them. But opening fire in crowded VT and the attacks at the movie theater and the petrol bunk and the taxi is about India and Indians.

this is not a competition, and in the end it is not only about one group. but for god sake, this is on their soil, in their minds and hearts and psyche. give it a rest, please, and let the Indians deal with this how they must.

#94
kerty
November 28, 2008
12:59 PM

Ruvy

These kind of terrorist events are seldom one-dimentional. They try to kill several proverbial birds in one throw. So what you suggest is equally true but not necessarily the whole truth or the only truth. Still, it does not make it any less relevant.

#95
GB
November 29, 2008
04:52 AM

[EDITED - HATE SPEECH]

#96
I_M
November 29, 2008
04:57 AM

[EDITED FOR CONSISTENCY]

#97
GB
November 29, 2008
05:04 AM

[EDITED]

#98
smallsquirrel
November 29, 2008
07:56 AM

GB, every one has a right to be here. if you do not have an actual point to make besides frothing and causing trouble, kindly sit quietly until you can think of something to contribute.

also, keep your jew hating to yourself. else you'll have me to contend with.

#99
GB
November 29, 2008
11:05 AM

ss: "if you do not have an actual point to make besides frothing and causing trouble "
GB: Of course another AMERICAN Jew, (I came to know from your comment #4.)
I was just responding to your friend's(Ruvy) comment no.5 - "The BBC are Jew-hating bastards who distort and lie every opportunity they get."
and I was supporting my fellow DESI, Aditi for her comment #15.
I have no personal hatred against any Human Being. If you still want to contend with me, You can go on, I am ready.

#100
Ruvy
URL
November 29, 2008
01:05 PM

I have no interest in contending with anybody about a terrorist attack that kills people. I record here my thoughts on the matter:

"What I suspect the goals of the attackers were: the attack was to illustrate to the Indian government how weak it was against a determnined guerilla attack against a major city; the attack was not so aimed at killing civilians as it was for the purpose of securing hostages - so death counts here are not the decisive issue, though they depress ans scare people - success in taking hostages is; a third party (Israel) with plenty of its own issues has been dragged into this mess - if there are American and British hostagews missing, then several third parties have been dragged in. The instant issue (for the terrorists) appears to be Kashmir. At least, that is what intelligence analysts will have to go on until "information gathering" can obtain more data from the terrorists. But in the end, Kashmir may be just a blind to divide Indian Moslems from Hindus.

Finally there is the simple goal of these terrorists - striking terror into the hearts of Indians, both leaders and common folk. Chandra's remarks elsewhere about how he would not let the terrorists affect his daily routine are the best weapon in dealing with this goal. It was ours during the height of Arab terror in Israel when we immigrated here.

These are just thoughts."

What I did not know was "the hostages just released have included Chinese, Japanese, Americans, French, Canadians and other nationalities."

I shut the computer off for the Sabbath and only read these observations by Aditi on Saturday night, Jerusalem time a few minutes ago. My observations were based on what I knew at the time.

As a human being who has lived through a number of terror attacks, I have a bit of knowledge to contribute. As a person who has friends in India and Pakistan, I have an interest in events in the Sub-continent.

I do know that 5 Jews ar dead, and that makes for a very Happy Thanksgiving.

Nobody I know takes this kind of joy in the events that have occurred in Mumbai. But, when Arab terrorists murdered Jews in Be'ersheva some years ago, I remember hearing about it at a Jerusalem bus stop - and seeing two Arab women grinning with joy. When everybody else at the bus stop was stricken with sadness at the news of the dead in Be'ersheva, these women wore broad grins on their faces.

Nobody attacked those women. Nobody harassed them on the bus. Nobody refused them the right to ride on the bus, for all their obvious contempt of those they rode with. They went home to Jebel Mukabr in safety and quiet on the bus, riding among people who they are happy to see die.

Was that the appropriate reaction of the Israelis waiting at the bus station to the attitude of those two Arab women? I'll not express an opinion.

But that was the reaction.

Moving on, though, mulling over the events in Mumbai will be important, especially in municipal and county police offices in the United States. Minneapolis is an internal port in the upper midwest, and my brother-in-law is a captain with the county police. I hope he and his superiors have the sense to understand that a seaport like New York or Los Angeles may be too obvious a target for copycat terrorists to strike. An internal port, like St. Louis, St. Paul, or Minneapolis might make a better target, as it would preserve some element of surprise.

These are strategic considerations that go to the heart of the possibility that the Mumbai Terrorist Attacks Could Become America's Problem.

I leave you to consider these points further. There is nothing else for me to say on the matter.

#101
smallsquirrel
November 29, 2008
01:13 PM

yeah GB, an american jew married to a desi, with a desi child who lived in india for a couple years.

this is not about you or your hatred. stop changing the subject to suit your warped agenda. this is the last I will address you directly. you'r esimply not worth it.

#102
GB
November 30, 2008
02:05 AM

ss: "this is the last I will address you directly. you'r esimply not worth it."
Who cares ! my self righteous person??
Who is worth , not worth , that God and time will decide. If you do not want to address me , Go ahead. Don't show your ego here???

#103
Aaman
URL
November 30, 2008
02:15 AM

GB, above, would you mind please changing to another nick? We have an author already using that nick and it would make for less confusion.

#104
G2B
November 30, 2008
02:26 AM

Oh sure no probs, I rechristen myself as G2B

#105
Ganadeva Bandyopadhyay a.k.a GB
URL
November 30, 2008
04:24 AM

thanks G2B

#106
Ganadeva Bandyopadhyay/GB
URL
November 30, 2008
04:27 AM

some problem in connection that my comment (above) got repeated so many times ...

#107
atheist
November 30, 2008
02:44 PM

Nobody I know takes this kind of joy in the events that have occurred in Mumbai. But, when Arab terrorists murdered Jews in Be'ersheva some years ago, I remember hearing about it at a Jerusalem bus stop - and seeing two Arab women grinning with joy. When everybody else at the bus stop was stricken with sadness at the news of the dead in Be'ersheva, these women wore broad grins on their faces.


The reaction of those women was indeed inhuman. On the other hand, it did not occur in a vacuum. The Israelis have those women's people in what is for all intents and purposes an apartheid system. The Israelis have been using starvation as a form of communal punishment for the past few years. They have killed many of the Palestinians, slowly, in this way. Such deep hatred as you witnessed on the women's faces does not appear from nowhere.

#108
kerty
November 30, 2008
03:30 PM

Atheists

India is not Palestine. Why have your friends chosen to terrorize jews in India?

#109
G2B
December 1, 2008
05:14 AM

[EDITED]

#110
Ruvy
URL
December 1, 2008
08:11 AM

[EDITED - IRRELEVANT]
Do you think terrorists came all the way to India just to kill handfull of Jews???

I certainly would imagine that terrorists intent on bringing Mumbai to her knees would ignore a handful of Jews in the Haba"d House. They were hardly worth bothering with.

But apparently, they did come to Mumbai and they did attack Jews specifically, a synagogue which they made sure to trash; they tortured and killed the Jews who did not escape their clutches. They did not attack a Hindu temple, nor a Christian church, even though Christians and Hindus are equally noxious infidels in their eyes, and far more numerous in Mumbai.

So, it appears, in spite of all that one would wish to say to the contrary, they did go to India and target Jews to kill them.

I may not know my history, but I do know that 5 Jews ar dead, and that makes for a very Happy Thanksgiving.

In addition, some folks posting here found this cause to celebrate. My only comment is that it is a pity that toads are not kosher. Frying one up well spiced might make an interesting meal....

The terrorists who attacked India managed to bring the Jew-hatred found in Nazi Germany and transmitted to the Arab world to your country. In other words, in addition to all the many many serious problems India and her neighbors face, they dumped that shit on you as well. I leave you to contemplate that, should you choose to.

As for me, my concern is for my Mumbaikar colleagues with whom I work, that they were not injured or hurt during the terrorist assault on Mumbai.

#111
commonsense
December 1, 2008
08:26 AM

Ruvy:

""I could explain why I raised the example of what happened at the bus-stop at the Jaffa Road a number of years ago; indeed, I'm tempted. But, I'll be a gentleman and refrain..."

good

#112
Aaman
URL
December 1, 2008
09:18 AM

GB/G2B - stop the hate speech or leave - you are not the arbiter of commenters or anyone for that matter.

#113
G2B
December 2, 2008
05:13 AM

Aaman ! you are not either ???
some NGO or what ? Just some time pass site
Before advicing me you should have waken up earlier. How about the article by Chandra about missionaries ??? Did i spread LOVE or HATE ??
You were happily enjoying the heated arguements!
Who the hell are you judging me ??
YOU can block my IP address if you want !

#114
Ruvy
URL
December 2, 2008
03:12 PM

It turned out in the end that my Mumbaikar colleagues all came out alright physically, though there is the emotional scarring and rage felt by all victms of terror, actual or vicarious.

I'm grateful to have found out that they are ok.

#115
kaffir
December 2, 2008
08:00 PM

Here's a piece from New Yorker on LeT:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/stevecoll/2008/12/lashkaretaiba.html

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