Desicritics Comments on Could India Host an Impressive Olympics?

Comment by Abdul Atiq

Sun, 15 Feb 2009 22:52:28 EST

I dislike India

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Comment by state select water heaters

Mon, 1 Sep 2008 05:31:17 EDT

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Comment by Cathy Chadwick

Mon, 25 Aug 2008 20:53:35 EDT

The initial question was"Can India Host an Impressive Olympics" I hope not. I believe India has better sense. The physical facilities that China had built were wonderful. They were the product of firms like Arup (Water Cube). They and the other things, just cost a lot of money, an estimated $40,000,000,000. It was estimated that 1 million "volunteers" spent the better part of a year getting ready. I hope India makes better uses of the money and effort. India did not win many gold medals. Aren't you happy that India does not take thousands of infants, some as young as 3 years, to train to be gymnasts , divers, swimmers,etc. It is being estimated that Michael Phelps will make a $100,000,000 on endorsements during the next year. Maybe, I am missing something

Comment by Aaman

Sat, 23 Aug 2008 11:55:11 EDT

An article on Indian architectural trends and styles would be interesting

Comment by Desh

Sat, 23 Aug 2008 10:18:08 EDT

Yes, you are right... just as bridges in US also fall unexpectedly out of the blue...(link) just as the levees cant stand the water of the sea and most of the dams are made of wood in small towns and cities in the US! My own house was built in 1924 - it didnt fall! My Mom's parental house was built in 1800s and its still there.. The government projects are definitely suspect but most of the private works are not as bad as you are making them out to be.... Ledius.. you are giving examples... dont make it a generalization!

Comment by Ledius

Sat, 23 Aug 2008 04:09:10 EDT

Buildings in India don't last long. Even a 30-year old flat depreciates in value (unless it is in Bandra) so much, it makes no sense buying one. In contrast, apartments in the US, in Manhattan and Boston that are almost a 100 years old still hold their values and seem to have better amenities than those built in India barely 20 years ago. Everyone talks of elevated highways as the solution to urban congestion in Indian cities. However, a major elevated flyover in Bangalore on Mysore road which is barely 10 years old is in such a bad shape that it can collapse soon if the present state of affairs continues. This was a major story in the TOI some 4 days ago. Most of the public buildings built post independence in India are in such a bad shape (with green slime on the exterior walls). The concrete awnings of many housing projects barely 30 years old have already collapsed. In Bangalore, people are investing in the so-called luxury apartments. For some weird reason, they invariably have some concrete arbors/trellises on the roofs. The builders thing they look great. I think they look stupid. Besides, I can almost guarantee they would never get maintained properly and within 20-30 years would crumble and fall down. God forbid someone stands under them when this happens. It can be safely assumed that the useful lifetime of any architectural project in India is only one-third to one-fourth of what it would be in a western country.

Comment by Desh

Sat, 23 Aug 2008 02:06:34 EDT

Marc: You make a valid point about Indians not respecting the environment in the country. But to start your rant on architecture while comparing with China is a little over the board. Here is why: 1. FYI, World's "Most Environmentally Friendly Building" as per US Green Building Council and USAID was inaugurated in 2004 (link). Karan Grover of KGA Associates who prepared the design concept for the building of that building (CII-Godrej Business Center). Although this one is not strictly an "Indian innovation" but at least the thoughts on skyscrapers of this type is in the right direction = it will be one of the "greenest skyscraper in the world". Now, what is YOUR definition of "Innovation" in architecture??? 2. As far as i can see most of the construction in China is being handled by foreign contractors. It has nothing to do with Chinese "innovation" per se. So how do you make such lofty claims? Halo effect?? 3. Innovation is dependent on context. In my opinion, Delhi's Metro is perhaps THE most complex project of similar proportions undertaken anywhere in the world. To do such a thing - just create it - in a democracy is a miracle.. but to do it successfully and under budget and time is "Innovation"! 4. Besides Great Wall of China, what single Architectural marvel have the Chinese created? Specifically in the last 10 years?? If building downtown buildings in Shanghai is what you are talking about, then you need some better course in architectural know-how. As a rule most of us Indians have low expectations from our ownselves. When Asiad in 1982 was coming up, I still remember how many doubted India's ability - at THAT point in time to even come up with a decent stadium - but we did in record time. I had performed in the Opening ceremony and we used to go to JNS for rehearsals very near the Asiad, and the work never seemed to end. But miraculously it all worked out in the end. Admittedly that was puny compared to Olympics, but I am confident that Commonwealth will completely surprise many. To even compare a totalitarian country with a democratic is crass intellectualism... but to make sweeping statements, and ignorant and baseless ones as well just shows your lack of basic rigor. Anyways.. better luck next time.. -d.

Comment by bd

Sat, 23 Aug 2008 01:53:31 EDT

I was quite interested to read that we seem to be struggling with architecture in the post independence period. Gosh, guys, you need to look around the country. Where do you want me to start? Executive Buildings? Take a look at every newly built executive building, 5 times out of 10, its good and perhaps 1-2 will be quite good. Let me just take my city for example, Bhopal. Take a look at its New Parliament Building. Cultural buildings? Sure, again look at Bharat Bhavan or the Museum of Man or the open air zoo. Government Buildings? Sure, look at Satpuda, pretty imposing government bureaucrat blocks. Home dwelling architecture? Perhaps the most vivid, widely distributed and chaotic building styles anywhere in the world. With the biggest number of private dwellings and with nothing even closely approximating dwelling or any kind of construction rules, you get as pure an architectural market as you can get anywhere in the world. And that shows, pure architecture as possible. And its not that dirty either, its clean(ish), green(ish), etc. town planned(ish). Old Bhopal still is well, like old cities anywhere, but dont rule out architectural gems in India, there are plenty of great examples all over the country.

Comment by Chandra

Sat, 23 Aug 2008 01:10:22 EDT

Deepti: Shut up because you are not an Indian? Thats the crux of Chandra's argument and no Mark is not an outsider just as while I lived in the US and thought of it as my home made me the country's well wisher. Chandra: Your arguments are without basis and lies. My concern is with long range forecasts. Who knows what will happen in 15-20 years. That is the crux of my argument. He is being pessmistic and I am being hopeful, that is the difference.

Comment by Chandra

Sat, 23 Aug 2008 00:59:35 EDT

Mark It is not your criticism that I am bothered about. It is your judgement I am worried about. To say India is unclean is not a problem, to say we cannot be clean is a serious problem. To say we cannot host an olympics today is not a problem, to say we cannot do it in 20 years is a problem. To say, we will not do well 20 years from now is an even more serious problem. Why are these serious problems? Because nobody knows what will happen 15-20 years from now. As an Indian, we have been told a million times by many - internal and external folks about what we cannot do. Your own presidential candidate talks about hope. I would like to hope too like many other Indians that things will get better. On the evidence of change in the last 10 years, there is no reason to feel negative. Lastly, but not the least, you are a legal guy working with an NGO, it is better to leave this forecasting business to professionals.

Comment by commonsense

Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:49:19 EDT

LS: ""if any desi just told me that Tata Nano has NO innovation, I would have gotten equally riled up."" interesting perspective! so all our sense of who we are is tied to tata nano! i bet if there were a zillion car makers in india, some of them would have said exactly that.

Comment by commonsense

Fri, 22 Aug 2008 20:59:23 EDT

Lakshmikanth: ""Also as a note: if any desi just told me that Tata Nano has NO innovation, I would have gotten equally riled up."" I note you avoid saying that you would call this person a "racist"

Comment by blokesablogin

Fri, 22 Aug 2008 20:35:48 EDT

interesting perspective. If we allowed private enterprise in India to develop infrastructure- without political interference and kickbacks, we just can wing this!

Comment by blokesablogin

Fri, 22 Aug 2008 20:34:22 EDT

interesting perspective. If we allowed private enterprise in India to develop infrastructure- without political interference and kickbacks, we just can do this!

Comment by kerty

Fri, 22 Aug 2008 17:37:04 EDT

"But there is something far deeper driving my fundamental faith in casting a critical eye on society: that its perfectibility can be realized only when we recognize and analyze our shortcomings" Brilliant. To be perfect society, we should all become gutter inspectors and constantly look for shortcomings and criticisms - more the merrier no matter where we have to look for them. No news should be good news, we should look for ways to trash it so our sense of accomplishment does not get the better of our sense of shortcomings which we need for our perfection. Surrounding ourselves with the sense of shame, guilt and shortcomings, we would not only improve the moral health of society, but also grow out of inferiority complex and become perfect. I am all for shortcoming police and gutter inspectors.

Comment by smallsquirrel

Fri, 22 Aug 2008 17:00:36 EDT

the point is laks, when you disagree with ANYONE who is not a desi you call them a racist, and it's pure crap. you almost never debunk the argument on it's merits, and you usually manage to twist words and add things that were never said. that is not sportsman like or appreciated by anyone

Comment by Lakshmikanth

Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:45:52 EDT

Commonsense: Good attempt at describing the fantasy troll image that you have in mind :) I absolutely love it. These are golden words for us to live by: Much of it has to do with the in-group, outgroup thingie, overlayed with a sense of unacknowledged inferiority and self-denial hammered in deep during colonialism, even though some of these folks will claim they are fighting colonial thinking. We are all... as they say Maculay's children.

Comment by Lakshmikanth

Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:41:01 EDT

oops... Now i became the troll.... Mark, my man.. I really dont mind you talking about trash in the streets of India... infact smallsquirrel does that quite a lot and I dont criticize her or you on that... I dont mind that sort of criticism, i infact welcome it. However, as I mentioned before what I got riled up about was your consistent berating of the "Indian technological mind" if there is such a thing, which to a large extent I don't agree with. India's development has been organic so far, and if you think you can make a dent in it, go for it I would only appreciate you more, but passing judgement like the way you do, and to expect no criticism is pretty naive. I apologize for being harsh. As others have called me a troll :) I accept that (even though i dont agree with) for getting this riled up on this issue, however, I encourage you to write on this forum and I will try to criticize it from a more "humane" angle. Again my apologies. Also as a note: if any desi just told me that Tata Nano has NO innovation, I would have gotten equally riled up.

Comment by smallsquirrel

Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:16:15 EDT

mark, don't run away from these trolls. ignore them if you have to, but do not let their insecurities and rhetoric silence you. seriously. laks is always crying racism and it's tiresome. please don't go away....

Comment by commonsense

Fri, 22 Aug 2008 15:49:00 EDT

Mark, Just hang in there! Your so-called critics would not bat an eyelid if the same comments came from a fellow-desi and some of them may not hold back when generalizing and judging Americans. But they sure cannot handle a critique from an amost-outsider. Much of it has to do with the in-group, outgroup thingie, overlayed with a sense of unacknowledged inferiority and self-denial hammered in deep during colonialism, even though some of these folks will claim they are fighting colonial thinking. It's a neurosis that devours the holder of such views even though the holder himself/herself feels she/he is "defending the dignity" of India or perhaps some other project that is even more pompous and vaingloriously grandiose. Just hang in there and write more on DC to expand the domain of basic commonsense :)

Comment by temporal

Fri, 22 Aug 2008 15:48:43 EDT

mark: your presence both here and in india is far more welcome, crucial and critical than the cynical ramblings of legends-in-their-minds you have displayed far greater patience than i could...i'd have just thanked the legends for their comments and moved on...besides as you know already....no one is authorised to speak on behalf of the billion plus last i checked;)

Comment by mbjesq

Fri, 22 Aug 2008 15:10:18 EDT

Thanks for the kind invitation, Aman, but I'll pass. As you know, I love the give-and-take and even take perverse pleasure in the provocation, counter-provocation, and general banter in the battle of ideas and clever expression. But there is something far deeper driving my fundamental faith in casting a critical eye on society: that its perfectibility can be realized only when we recognize and analyze our shortcomings. The point of engaging in that discussion evaporates in an environment of closed-minded insularity, and becomes intolerably ugly in a climate of ironic, self-reflexive appeals to the barriers of racism. I trust you guys to keep the well-reasoned discussion flowing in my absence. Cheers, MBJ

Comment by Aaman

Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:49:41 EDT

Mark, your missives are critical to what we at Desicritics are endeavoring to express - hang in there, keep the Roman Forum abuzz and don't let the hecklers get to you. There are more than enough people who care deeply about what this region can achieve if it pulls its socks up and we have too few saints of the gutters to get us out of our morass.

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:47:10 EDT

Laks, we imbibe technology well just as the Chinese do and more so the Japanese and there is no shame in that. We are not taught to think out of the box nor does our society encourage it. That is the truth. The Americans are way ahead of us when it comes to technology. Its a fact that even Friedman talked about. While I was in the US I found enough reasons to criticize the country but none of the Americans ever told me that I had no business voicing my frustrations because I was an outsider. Thats a weak argument and does not hold water. Shut up because you are not an Indian? Thats the crux of Chandra's argument and no Mark is not an outsider just as while I lived in the US and thought of it as my home made me the country's well wisher. There are those who bitch about India without doing shit for this country. Well Mark has done enough for this country and in my books despite his 'gora' skin color that gives him ample right to bitch about our country and for us to counter his viewpoint by giving concrete examples and not getting personal.