Peace With Dignity: Another Gift For Israel

bravo temporal!

William Kristol channels many voices in the Jewish State at 60

In 2008, the defense of the state of Israel, and everything it stands for, requires a kind of courage and determination very much out of accord with the perpetual click-clack of our politics, and with the combination of irresponsibility and wishfulness that characterizes the age in which we live.

According to the Greek poet Homer, a whole bunch of years ago King Agamemnon tried to end the siege of Troy with a brilliant strategem - the Trojan horse. Pretending peace, the horse was filled with Greek soldiers and presented as a gift of peace to Troy. King Priam of Troy accepted the gift of peace from the Greeks - it was his last mistake.

I see you've been reading Homer, Temporal - and not Homer Simpson either. Let's see, you want the UN, the European Union and the Organization of Islamic Countries (formerly chaired by el-Amin Husseini, the "Palestinian Gaza Arab who encouraged Hitler to kill Jews in Europe) to be the guarantors of Israel's existence.

You want the hen to sit accepting "peace" from the fox, and you want the fox to guard the hen. If I wasn't the proposed hen, I'd piss my pants with laughter.

Mazel tov, Temporal - you just graduated from poetry to stand-up comedy. All you need now is a cheesy suit, and a flophouse of a club to perform in, where a toilet flush punctuates every punch-line.

I prefer your condemnations to your "peace", boychik. At least I'll be alive to read them.

aaman:

from the same link with tongue in cheek:

Americans grasp that Israel's very existence to some degree embodies the defeat and repudiation of the genocidal totalitarianism of the 20th
century.

ruvy:

tch tch!

by invoking Godwin you exposed the fallacy

;)

At least you're back to your usual form, Temporal. Now we can forget about this "magnanimous" proposal of yours.

Well, almost. It was well written stand-up comedy. I may have some relatives in the business; I'll have to check. I can try to put you in touch with somebody. Maybe you can get a gig in White Horse or Tijuana....

Upwards and onwards!!

XOX,
Ruvy

bad jokes suit not genocidal kahanites

y a w n

***

Peace in the region is not to be equated with death for the state of Israel.

Oh boy, Temporal!

Bold print to make the point! You're in top form!

You vill enjoy mein cyanide pie!! Ja wohl mein Übergruppenführer!!

I'm forwarding this article, if it's okay with you, to two of the Jewish lists I'm on. I just gotta see what kind of reactions I get.

Peace in the region is not to be equated with death for the state of Israel.

How oh so fuckin' generous of you, Temporal....

ruvy

it is alright...stop foaming

this was not written for your types

;)

Foaming?

I'm trying to stop laughing, Temporal!

that is good:)

stay there

am sending an ambulance with men in white carrying a strait jacket

***

Both Israel and Palestinians have to demonstrate more effectively that they want to live in peace and do not want to kill, maim, expel from their land. It is for them to deliberate and decide if this should come under One State of Two State solution.

Ruvy #3:

""Mazel tov, Temporal - you just graduated from poetry to stand-up comedy. All you need now is a cheesy suit, and a flophouse of a club to perform in, where a toilet flush punctuates every punch-line.""

Before Ruvy starts pretending to be the victim, as he surely will, and before this thread is flooded with reams of quotations from holy books and personal conversations with G-d, I just want to remind everyone who started the "personal attacks" (aginst the comments policy) that have nothing to do with the piece above.

yeah hey common I second that.
I know we don't all see eye to eye but can we please suspend the name-calling all around?

it STILL makes me sad.

yep, i have declared an auto-moratorium (spelling?) on this aspect of my existence.

cs and ss:

thanks:)

understand and will try and stay away from those who comment without reading

The immensely commonsensical punch-line from Temp:

"Israel has to exist. Its citizens have a right to live in peace and harmony within its defined borders. They forget that to ensure this its neighbors should also have the same rights.""

seems Ruvy wears his racist attitude and bigotry proudly on his sleeve.

T

Good post. It is reasonable talk like this that will help move things.

rgds

Both Israel and Palestinians have to demonstrate more effectively that they want to live in peace and do not want to kill, maim, expel from their land. It is for them to deliberate and decide if this should come under One State of Two State solution.

Dottsa nice. Now go to Gaza and tell that to the kids from Hamas and Islamic Jihad (and all the other lovely "special" Palestinians, as one of the anonymous commenters called them) who lob rockets at us daily, and see if they take kindly to it - or blow you away like they tried to blow away some other Canucks a while ago, a fact that you ignored. Maybe Jewish Canucks don't count in your eyes....

If you live, you can cross the border and visit me, and I'll treat you for coffee; you can tell me all about what a genocidal maniac I am in person.

The world should help them reach this decision but should not refrain to remind Israel that it should curb its policies of occupation, subjugation, ethnic cleansing, and terrorising.

The world should help them reach this decision but should not refrain to remind Israel....

All sorts of assholes remind us all the time of our supposed sins before the world. And all sorts of stupid Jews worldwide think that these assholes are worth answering. I don't. They're stupid enough top think that you are generous and magnanimous. I know better.

So, don't practice your speechifying on me, Temporal; and from the looks of a lot of folks here, you are just preaching to the choir. The real challenge is to explain it to those kids in Gaza who love lobbing rockets over the border at us. They are the ones who need to accept your ideas. From what little I can see, what they really like is the smell of dead Jews, and the real question I have is would they like the smell of a dead Canuck bringing the good news of how "peace in the region is not to be equated with death for the state of Israel," as well.

Is your passport in order? Play peacemaker, then.

Let me make a point to you here, a point that will show just what kind of cojones you really have.

I have attempted and reached out to Arabs and Jews with concepts of peace. I failed in my attempts, and now they have been soured altogether by the war in 2006.

In addition, in my comments to Arabs here, as well as to Liam Bailey in his articles here, I have consistently pushed the issue of making sure that Arabs living in Israel can make decent money.

I am the only one on this whole damned list who gets down and dirty and discusses issues of making sure all of us in this country can live in prosperity and dignity. Perhaps, it's because I'm the only one on this whole damned list who cares.

Can you get beyond your preaching and break through the hatred of the kids in Hamas? Are you up to that challenge?

I doubt it.

So save your "gifts" for Israel, and give them to India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. They need them far more than we do.

"Criticizing Zionism is NOT anti-Semitism. States do not exist without an "official" map. Israel has to exist. Its citizens have a right to live in peace and harmony within its defined borders. They forget that to ensure this its neighbors should also have the same rights."

Ruvy
I can understand your concern about those rockets coming from Gaza as well as those jihadi boys. Let me ask you a question do you see any problem in that region. And if you do, which I am sure you must do then what is your approach to solve it. Just make it plain and simple so that I can understand. Are you willing to discuss that?

Morris,

Please do not think I'm trying to avoid your questions. I am not. But, just as nothing is simple where India-Pakistan is concerned (how many nationalities inhabit India, Pakistan and Bangladesh; how many languages are spoken on the sub-continent?), nothing is simple where Israel and Greater Syria is concerned.

Put as simply as I can, my peace proposals center around the 1919 agreement between Feisal and Chaim Weitzmann, and a means of resurrecting them, giving Arabs Jordanian citizenship with village and municipal autonomy and ending the "Palestinian" authority. First, all Arabs who are not Israeli citizens have to get Jordanian citizenship, to make sure that they are not stateless persons. In addition, all Arabs who are presently Israeli citizens have to have the option to become Jordanian citizens as well, should they desire.

Borders: The borders of the State of Israel (or whatever entity arises if the State is overthrown will be the Jordan River on the east, the international border of Lebanon on the north , and a line going from 5 kilometers west of el-Arish southwards to Eilat in the Sinai so that the Gaza refugee camps can be emptied.

The humanitarian problem of refugee camps would have to be solved in steps:

1. Getting rid of the UN, which has served only as an enabler for Arab terrorists and the Jew-hatred pushed by the OIC and the Arab League, and instituting direct Israeli control of the refugee camps, working with Jordanian officials and educated Arabs (of which there are many) to immediately end problems that make them slums and gang hangouts.

At the same time, Arabs living in these camps have to be allowed to work in Israel and Jordan, and have to be paid at the same rate that Israelis are paid, so that they can make money, put food on the table and feel that they can develop lives of dignity and prosperity.

2. Ending the pattern of education among Arabs that teaches little children to hate Jews and only want their death. Israeli schools do not teach Israeli kids to hate Arabs - Arab terrorists do.

At the same time, Jewish villages and towns in Judea and Samaria must be forced to upgrade their own sanitation and sewage facilities, so that they do not damage the Judean Aquifer, and Arab villages, towns and cities will need assistance in upgrading their own sewage and sanitation facilities for the same reason. Doing this will do two things; it will end the resentment on both sides over misuse and contamination of the Aquifer, on which we all depend, and it will end the actual contamination of the Aquifer.

3. Getting rid of the Arab terrorist groups in the refugee camps, in Judea, Samaria and in Gaza. This would have to either be done by Jordanian soldiers, or if that were not practicable, by Israeli soldiers.

While this is being done Jordanian courts of law need to be established in the Arab towns of Judea, Samaria and Gaza, so that law and order can be enforced. In the territories of Israel where Jordanian administration is in place, Jordanian law will be enforced except those provisions prohibiting the sale of land to Jews.

The bottom line to all of this is to get foreigners, like the EU, the UN the Russian Federation, and the United States OUT of the process, and to make sure that it is Jordan and Israel who solve the problem. The "world's" advice is neither needed or wanted. All the "world has done heretofore is foster death and war.

Obviously, there is a lot more to this process, but the first and foremost issues have to be to deal with the real humanitarian problem of South Syrian Arabs forced to stay in refugee camps by their fellow Arabs.

Ruvy,
That is very interesting. Thank you very much. That is a lot to digest for a man like me with limited knowlwedge and intelect.

I reckon that you will not recognize West Bank as a part of Jordan. If that is so we run into difficulty to start with. What is your logic in wanting to go back to 1919 agreement between Feisal and Weizmann? And why put UN aside? Is'nt Israel a creation of UN? I think you are adding entrely brand new dimension which Israel itself is not professing. Am I correct?

A number other things you are suggesting are quite good. Two states is a good concept. But I see no reason why a single Israel and other existing states cannot solve the problem if approched with a lot of goodwill.

Aaman, Deepti, or whoever is around: I messed up the bold html code in my comment, which was being finished as persistent calls "Reuven! Dinner is ready!" were heard in my home....

My wife's spaghetti and sauce is a very formidable distraction (as is she). A thousand apologies: it will never happen again - until next time.... In the meanwhile, could you, would you er remove the bold print from comment #26 and the part of comment #25 that needs it (starting with "Obviously, there are....") ?

What AGAIN? Temp bhai we will now get more god declared real estate deals! Sigh....

Morris,

The logic in starting with the 1919 agreement between Feisal and Chaim Weitzmann is that the Jordan River was to be the border of the Jewish entity in the west, and the Arab entity in the east.

The United Nations agreed to a partition in an attempt to end a war and somehow deal with the fact that the Brits had thrown in the towel on the Mandate - and nobody really wanted to pick it up.

A different solution could have been America taking over the place as a trusteeship, but American politicians did not want that headache - and the Jewish Agency certainly didn't want the Americans running the place, for a whole host of complicated reasons.

It should be noted that the Jewish Agency was a nation-building enterprise. The Arabs had a Higher Committee, but never attempted nation-building in the sense that the Zionist movement, which the Jewish Agency represented, did. Had it done so, a Jewish state here would have been a lot harder to justify to anybody, as it would have clearly appeared as a foreign body in a developing Arab society.

There was an educated elite that had nationalist feelings, but what their borders were, whether they were loyal to the idea of Greater Syria, South Syria or a "Palestine" was not something that they projected in their own society clearly. South Syrian society at the time was clan and village based. Had there been a clear projection of this idea of an Arab nation, with some effort to build institutions to define this nation, nobody at the UN would have bought the idea of partitioning the land. It would have just become another Arab state in the Arab world.

To my knowledge (with the exception of the Wahhabi rulers of Arabia), until Nasser took over Egypt, no Arab leader in West Asia (Morocco, Tunisia and Libya definitely had national leaders) really attempted to build a nation - they just took what the Europeans left tried to govern. The failure of Arabs to really build nations is clear in the problems Arab societies face now. Iraq is just one glaring example of this.

Ruvy:

""All sorts of assholes remind us all the time of our supposed sins before the world. And all sorts of stupid Jews worldwide think that these assholes are worth answering.""

But that's exactly what you are doing here and everywhere. Not sure what kind of hole you might be digging here, but you do answer/respond.

Ruvy:

""I am the only one on this whole damned list who gets down and dirty and discusses issues of making sure all of us in this country can live in prosperity and dignity. Perhaps, it's because I'm the only one on this whole damned list who cares.""

While we are all quite impressed with the above-mentioned accomplishments, is there any room for a one-state or a two-state solution where everyone has equal rights?

Ruvy:

""and a means of resurrecting them, giving Arabs Jordanian citizenship with village and municipal autonomy and ending the "Palestinian" authority.""

same old, same old: ie. there is no such thing as a palestinian, since they are really Jordanian.


Ruvy:

""The bottom line to all of this is to get foreigners, like the EU, the UN the Russian Federation, and the United States OUT of the process, and to make sure that it is Jordan and Israel who solve the problem."'

What about the hundreds and thousands of "foreigners" including you who are Israeli citizens simply because of some divine texts and beliefs. Are they (you) in or out of the process?

It should be noted here that there are points where I agree firmly with Temporal. There should be no "separation fence" between Arab and Jewish parts of Israel. First of all, the damned thing is ugly. Second of all, Arab villagers should not be separated from the lands they have worked for decades, and Ariel Sharon, in having this wall put up, purposely attempted to get around Ottoman land law. Thousands of dunams of land were separated from their owners so that they couldn't work them, and therefore they would lay fallow for three years - at which point they would revert to the successor in interest to the Ottoman Empire - the State of Israel.

But it should be noted that as long as there are Arab terrorists active in the country, and so long as Arab terror has not been suppressed, this ugly separation remains a necessity.

The proposal I've outlined would entail tearing down this wall, and fostering instead, Arab - Jewish friendship and cooperation in working out problems of developing higher crop yields for olives, more and better quality olive oil, building acres and acres of greenhouses to grow vegetables and fruits, so that Israel can recapture its market in fruits and vegetables, improving the sanitation practices in Arab fruit and vegetable groves, so that everyone can by their crops with confidence and the e. coli count will drop and hepatitis will disappear, developing light industry all over Judea and Samaria, industries that would be able to pioneer the best environmental practices, developing the immense wind energy of Judea and Samaria to generate megawatts of electricity, improving building practices to protect against earthquakes. There are loads of things that engineers can do to make a very profitable paradise out of Judea, Samaria and Gaza, and given the blessings of peace, finally extend these blessings to all of the rest of Israel.

But for me, the most important things of all is that I'd be able to get on a bike and ride the back paths from Ma'ale Levona to 'Eli and Shilo without fear of getting shot (and keep my heart in good shape) - and that maybe, just maybe, my son would be able to skip army duty and go to university instead.

There are endless opportunities to exploit tourism in many ways, from the point of view of Christian pilgrims, Buddhists, Moslems and Jews (but a stronger emphasis would be laid on getting American, Canadian, and Latin American Jews to return home permanently

the only bottom line that would yield real peace for the inhabitants of the cursed/holy lands between the Israeli occupants and the displaced Palestinians is a peace with dignity and honour for both.

whether it is one state or two, the wishes of both have to be considered...with or without international participation or guarantees (though sanity would indicate the guarantees would help diffuse occassional aggrievement)

lasting peace will have to be achieved with direct negotiations between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

imposed dictats would not last

Temporal,

But our friend Ruvy thinks that Palestinians are but Jordanians. Luckily, him and his ilk are on the fringe of the fringe, - such that his group, the Kahaneites are banned and outlawed everywhere - but that does not stop him from being a cyber-tiger, espousing seemingly "rational" solutions to the issue. It is a matter of time (and trust me on this one!), he will be citing verses from holy texts and will refer to private conversations with G-d, to, in his mind, clinch the argument. Any solution to the issue will have to somehow sideline the hotheads on both the Israeli and Palestenian sides. Ruvy is fond of pointing out the hot-heads on the other side of fence/fall, while miscrecognizing himself as a cool, rational head.

But our friend Ruvy thinks that Palestinians are but Jordanians. Luckily, him and his ilk are on the fringe of the fringe....

You're wrong, troll.

The vast majority of the people living in Jordan are South Syrians, like the Arabs here. THEY HAVE A STATE ALREADY. So, they don't need a second one. The solution I present, a solution which isn't all mine by the way, simply recognizes that reality and gives South Syrians living in Israel the opportunity to belong to a successful and functional Arab society, while retaining residence and rights in the land they were born in.

A Kahanist would have simply written of Arabs living in Israel - "they must go". He would never have suggested that Arabs could stay.

cs: it does not matter;)

he can call them Bantus or New Guineans

the bottom line in #34 has to be adhered for lasting peace..."...between the Israeli occupants and the displaced Palestinians is a peace with dignity and honour for both."

Ruvy,

Must I remind you that you'd promised that you'd never respond to me? I, on the other hand, made no such promises that I could and would not keep. You on the other hand, have made hazaar (thousands) of such promises in bad faith, and have broken them in the blink of an eye (and a tooth too!). So now, I respond to your lies and you, according to your own rules that were chosen by you and not imposed upon you by any private conversations with G-D, have no option but to remain silent, at least when reading whatever I write. Sounds fair and square? I am following the rules YOU inscribed and swore by. Or are you intent on trying to hoodwink us all one more time? No, we desis are not as stupid as you think we are. Now, do you want quotes from your own resolutions, in your own words? Please stick to your own resolutions and refrain from responding to me. And since I made no such resolutions nor promises, I reserve the right to expose your logic, till the proverbial cows or Brookly cowboys like you come home (home = Brooklyn, not your imagined home at the expense of ethnic cleansing)

Can you get beyond your preaching and break through the hatred of the kids in Hamas? Are you up to that challenge?

I doubt it.

And so far, I've been right.

Your repetitive preaching since then has shown that all you are willing to do is preach emptily. Let me know when you've packed your bags and are willing to actually come here and bring your fine message to Hamas - to actually take a chance on peace, as I've done.

[EDITED]
Later!

While you're figuring which paragraph of your essay to repeat in response, I suggest that you consider bring to bring the gifts of peace to Jaipur. Like I said earlier, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh need your peacemaking spirit far more than we do.

We should encourage initiatives that will let all Israelis and Palestinians to live in peace, with dignity, justice and guaranteed fundamental human rights in secure borders, as enshrined in the various UN resolutions.

[EDITED - IRRELEVANT]

# 34

#25

Linking Jaipur to ME: Typical selective thinking that conveniently links ALL non-state violence to Islam and then uses it to justify violence and injustice by the state. The Americans and Israelis have long been masters of this form of "spin." And taking lessons from this, Xinhua reported last week that the Dalai Lama had links with Al-Qaeda! And the billion plus Chinese actually believed it!
Just as the few million fanatic Zionists believe the bs their book feeds them.

Jaipur was sad but let not fudge the issues. The causes, motives and strategic interests driving "terrorism" against India are quite different from what happens in Israel/Palestine.

[EDITED - FOR CONSISTENCY]

Finally Temp bhai - the tide is turning even in the western media. Was surprised to note that even NYTimes MENTIONED the plight of Palestinians in their coverage of the 60th anniversary. Ten years ago, the Palestinians had been an invisible people.

So there is always hope for dignity and justice. Seems like Nataraja´s foot may well be shifting in his dance.

[EDITED - ONLY FOR CONSISTENCY]

So, "South Syrian" is now the new evasive term of choice for the Palestinians? Should we see this as marginally better than the Zionist slogan of "a land without people for a people without land"? So now you admit that there are humans there, albeit, in your register, not quite Palestinians? And you claim the prerogative of representing/naming them, since they are to dumb to do so, right?

Ruvy

Correct me if I am wrong. Israel Government is not talking about the kind of solution that you are suggesting. What you are suggesting is somehting new and counter productive. It will not fly.

Sure you can say Palestenians are all citizens of Jordan. That does not matter. What land they will be living on is the key. If I understood you correctly you want them out from where they are now. Don't forget what we wanted to do. We wanted to stop those rockets and jihadis coming from Gaza. You think what you are sggesting is going to put an end to it. No sir, that will continue. Location will change but come they will.

I understand you folks have a very difficult problem. Yes, you are right. The news from Jaipur does make you wonder. Of course we need not connect that with islamic terrorism. But sadly chances of that being true are very high. What in the world is going on? I have no idea. But difficult problem reqiures a bold and imaginative solution. You have to come up with something that looks like a 'win win'. Seriously, Ruvy what you have suggested is a non-starter.

[EDITED}

Morris,

The Israel government is buying the poisoned snake oil that Temporal has prescribed. They do not have the guts to pursue the kind of strategy (modified Jordanian solution) that I (and quite a few others) recommend.

This is no surprise. It is a puppet régime. So they are not buying the poisoned snake oil from Temporal, they are buying it from a visiting puppet-master, George Bush.

At this point, what will happen after all the speechifying and pretty talk, is that Olmert (or the puppet that succeeds him if he is actually indicted) will send thousands of young men to risk their lives fighting terrorists on the ground the terrorists are familiar with. So Jewish kids will die unnecessarily, Arab women and kids will die unnecessarily, because the terrorists will hide amongst women and children (brave, aren't they?), and people like Temporal and Anamika and the propagandists and the liars they quote so assiduously will repeat their "Jews are the new Nazis" mantra ad infinitum.

That is not a win-win solution at all. The win-win solution is defenestrating (a $100 word for tossing out the window to one's death, made famous by Bohemian Protestants several centuries ago) the secular unJew élite that is ruining this country and then implementing the solution I suggested. As for dealing with the terrorists in Gaza, the appropriate way is to get the native populace to kill them by themselves. That is accomplished by telling them in clear Arabic that this is what you expect them to do, then as an incentive, cutting off all water, electricity food and medical shipments to Gaza.

That way, there are no smart bombs used which kill innocent bystanders, and there are no Israeli kids dying fighting house-to-house. The Americans, Europeans, Russians, UN, moralizing NGO's and all the rest of the shitheads who endlessly wag their fingers at us about the various "conventions" that supposedly comprise international law, get one finger - the middle one - as a response. That is all they deserve.

Anamika and Temporal and the propagandists they quote will still bitch and moan, but frankly, they wouldn't quit bitching and moaning until we Jews in Israel all die, so that is no big deal.

Oh, by the way, Morris, I'm not blaming Moslems for what happened in Jaipur. I have no clue as to who did the bombing there. And I'm not going to point any fingers, either. I am pointing out that Temporal's peacemaking efforts are better directed at Jaipur than here. Bush already has the "let's kill Israel with peace proposals" gig here.

>>>>Jaipur was sad but let not fudge the issues. The causes, motives and strategic interests driving "terrorism" against India are quite different from what happens in Israel/Palestine.<<<<

And how exactly is that!!!!!

.....both are done and justified in the name of "Allah"............

Ruvy:

""Anamika and Temporal and the propagandists they quote will still bitch and moan, but frankly, they wouldn't quit bitching and moaning until we Jews in Israel all die, so that is no big deal.""

One day it is "we Jews" and the same day, same post, it is a torrent of abuse towards "secular Jewish elites", the "Yids" and the "Kikes". The persecution and victimhood complex couldn't be greater. I can't even imagine such a paranoid mind: imagined enemies within and imagined enemies without.

cs:

remember "dementia"?

exhibit a: temporal = bush above;)

ps: ss am sorry. am trying to stay above the fray as you noticed lately ... but this is insane

Jaipur terror blasts

'Indian Mujahideen sends pre-blast video footage'


The e-mail that has been sent by a lesser known terrorist outfit 'Indian Mujahideen' that warns the Indian government of similar attacks in the future if the government continues to support US and its policies.

The e-mail claims that the blasts were intended to hit the tourism sector of Rajasthan.

The outfit has threatened of similar attacks in the four metros cities vis Delhi, Mumbai, Kolkata and Chennai.

The e-mail id from which Aaj Tak has received the e-mail is (guru_alhindi_jaipur at yahoo dot co dot uk). This email address is being protected from spam bots, you need Javascript enabled to view it


http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&issueid=53&id=8257&Itemid=1&sectionid=4

You can watch it on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yom_23UXhj4

Linking Jaipur to ME: Typical selective thinking that conveniently links ALL non-state violence to Islam and then uses it to justify violence and injustice by the state. The Americans and Israelis have long been masters of this form of "spin."

No, Anamika, I did not link Jaipur to the ME, you did. I told Temporal that his efforts were more needed in Jaipur than here. But since you raise the topic, I'll see your five and raise you ten.

Jaipur is the precise kind of shit that goes on in India that gives all your preaching and moralizing a bad name. To my knowledge, sixty people died. And I'm a JEW, NOT A HINDU!! TO ME, LIFE IS NOT CHEAP! WE DON'T HAVE A BILLION PEOPLE TO SPEND!! So, what happened in Jaipur is not merely "sad". It's heartbreaking!! It's heartbreaking that it goes on daily in Iraq; it is heartbreaking when any innocent soul is killed in war - AND SO THAT YOU DO NOT MISTAKE ME, I SAID ANY INNOCENT SOUL, IRRESPECTIVE OF RACE, CREED OR NATIONAL IDENTITY.

Nevertheless, before you scream that I am a racist, as you most surely will, as a paid up, card carrying BJP member, reflect on what goes on in your native land, and the constant tens of people killed in communal rioting and killing before daring to point your finger anywhere else. The stink of murder constantly arising from the sub-continent like so many Toltecs or Aztecs sacrificing human beings to their gods does not make you look good when you complain about Israel or Jews.

ana:

Finally Temp bhai - the tide is turning even in the western media. Was surprised to note that even NYTimes MENTIONED the plight of Palestinians in their coverage of the 60th anniversary. Ten years ago, the Palestinians had been an invisible people.

there are several reasons for this 'awakening' such as ease of communication that cuts into 'suppression' and censorship of news and events, YouTube, internet, citizen-journos, blogs etc.

and add another:

the palestinians have the same semitic resiliency for "their" cause and "their" land as shown by the occupiers...

Ruvy:

""TO ME, LIFE IS NOT CHEAP! WE DON'T HAVE A BILLION PEOPLE TO SPEND!!""

Especially since I attack a majority of my fellow Israelis as "yids", "kikes", "secular jews" while desperately looking around for the lost children of the "tribes of Israel" among the Pathans and in Northeast India, to supplement the rapidly depleting population due to the migration of fellow Jews who are sick and tired of the mayhem that we started, through colonization, and now help co-create on a daily basis, with help from Palestinian hot-heads....

Temporal, if you seriously expect to sell your "peace with dignity" plan, you should pack your bags, get to Gaza, and explain to those nice boys lobbing Grad missiles itty bitty rocks at shopping centers in Ashqelon that hitting medical centers does not win them any points if they are serious about peace.

A well meaning Canuck like you has got to have some credibility, doncha think?

Gill,

Welcome back. Hope you have a peaceful, non-turbulent stay on this thread!

Peace.

Ruvy

I can understand your frustration. I honestly mean that. I am not sure how we are going to be able to combat terrorism. Extreme measures such as what you are suggesting may drive more people in their camp. Don't forget there are more than a billion muslims in the world. They need to recruit only one tenth of one percent to make one million. Hey, that is a lot of terrorists. It is a frightening scenario.

I think all issues should be lealt with justice and firmness. Firmness without justice which appears to be the policy of Israel will not get them peace. On the other hand India's soft approach (even unwilling to execute a convicted terrorist) is not producing good results either. So my feeling is not only be just but also appear just and at the same time be stern if necessary.

Morris,

Extreme measures such as what you are suggesting may drive more people in their camp. Don't forget there are more than a billion muslims in the world. They need to recruit only one tenth of one percent to make one million.

These are the kind of odds we faced in 1948. Had our leaders cowered in front of them then, there would have only been a continuation of the Nazi genocide concluded in 1945. We can't afford to be afraid of the Arabs - or the Americans, or the Europeans. One crack, and we're all goners here.

The refusal to act to protect oneself in a dangerous and hostile world is suicidal. Being just would mean executing the dozens of terrorists in our jails, so that Arab kids would fear the inside of an Israeli jail, knowing it was certain death. Being just would mean actually enforcing law in this country.

The time to have merely dealt firmly with Arab terror is long past. Now, extreme measures must be taken - otherwise we will face dozens of Jaipurs. But in taking those measures we must minimize the risk to our own soldiers, minimize the risk to innocents, and encourage Arabs to slaughter their own terrorists.

Ruvy - you do SUCH a good job exposing your fanaticism that its a shame to stop you from your chosen path. As for the rest of the rant, re Hindus, Toltecs and Aztecs - all it does is expose your ignorance and bigotry. Well done!

Editors: I see a "Jew" insulting "Hindus" is okay and no one need be emailed and invited to respond. Thanks again for exposing the editorial hypocrisy! And yes, please do edit this para out as per (selective offence) DC editorial policy.

All religions are crap, but please do click on that Bible code ad you see on this article.

Ruvy said

>>>>Jaipur is the precise kind of shit that goes on in India that gives all your preaching and moralizing a bad name. To my knowledge, sixty people died. And I'm a JEW, NOT A HINDU!! TO ME, LIFE IS NOT CHEAP! WE DON'T HAVE A BILLION PEOPLE TO SPEND!! <<<<

Anamika there is no insult for Hindus in his statemnet. He has simply called a spade a spade!!!! And he is right that a Hindu who does not have a solution for saving his own people in his own land cannot be taken seriously.

A Hindu solution is simply "acceptance" and "justifying" "death and killings" using some fetish higher "ideological" grounds..... in short hindu life is "cheap" in India... this cycle of terror and couple of weeks of anger and sadness and than forgetting it has continued for past decades. This "acceptance" might be a solution for you but for others outside India it is not..... I guess we as Hindus are simply waiting that one day we will all wake up and this institutionalized "terror" will be all gone... all by itself ...because one day these institutions of Islam will feel sorry by the sacrifices and patience of hindus and will change their books and teachings..... i guess till than we as Hindus should be all ready to sacrifice our lives anywhere ... anytime... any place... in India......

Thanks Gill,

I owe you. Home truths are hard to swallow, and I didn't give Anamika a teaspoon of sugar to make the medicine go down.

Unfortunately, the régime here has no solution for saving the lives of Israelis or any other Jews. They are bought out puppets and do not care. They care only for the "People's Republic or Tel Aviv" comprised of rich Jews who suck the blood of the rest of us here.

I was once very proud to be a Zionist, Gill. The idea of a Jewish soldier wearing the Shield of David and fighting not for some goyisher prince but for the defense of our own homeland made me swell with pride.

Now?

I look at the kids in uniform and feel bad for them. They will be sacrificed unnecessarily in useless campaigns to please the Americans or the Europeans and will be tasked with making their own countrymen refugees in their own homeland, so that pigs like Peres ans Olmert can bask in the glory they think the world bestows on them.

Go to You Tube or Google and look up Gush Qatif, and you'll begin to understand the depth of my despair.

I wouldn't touch the title Zionist with a ten foot pole now.

Morris #47:

Morris,

To state the obvious, the Palestinian-Israeli issue is a complex mess. However, having said that, it is hard (for a rationalist-secularist like me at list) to believe that no resolution to this issue will ever be found. Almost all such issues, despite their specific histories etc. have been resolved eventually - Northern Ireland etc. etc.

On both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian issue, there are extremists who will never compromise. On the Israeli side, there are those who pretend there were never any Palestinians to begin with. The old Zionist slogan "a land without people, for a people without land", has now mutated into pretending that the Palestinians are really South Syrians, Jordanians, or "they already have a state", so push them towards it. Luckily, this is small fringe minority, but with enough power to inflict enormous damage. Any talks or serious negotiations will have to ignore this fringe group of the Kahane-type and their acolytes who dream of "Greater Israel" and refuse to recognize any laws, except so-called divine laws and covenants. Together with this minority is the larger picture of the only modern-nation state without formally recognized and delineated borders. Hence, the non-fringe groups also ignore any international law and keep expanding the illegal settlements with the aim of creating "facts on the ground". Then there is always talk of expanding the so-called buffer-zones, as if that would stop the violence. There is no such thing as a permanent buffer zone. As you point out, even if all Palestinians are deported to Jordan, as the Kahaneites dream, would that resolve anything?

On the Palestinian side, there is also no shortage of folks who pretend that there is no such things as Israel and if there is one now, it is temporary and will be history soon. They are the mirror opposite, but same thinking, as the fringe Kahaneites and his ilk. These Palestinians also inflict serious damage to any possibility of any resolution, but at the end of the day, they are in a numerical minority. I said, at the end of the day, even though this may not appear to be the case now.

Terrorism is not the exclusive reserve of either of these groups. We have had the Irgun as an organized terrorist group in the past from the Israeli side, whose leader went on to lead Israel much later. Currently, there's no shortage of Uzi or M16 toting bands of settlers, plus the whole might of the state meting out "collective punishment". The same holds true on the Palestinian side, minus the might of the non-existent state. So, the killings continue while vague conferences, photo-opeds continue to promise a "just and lasting peace".

Once either a one-state or two-state solution materializes, it will be a different story altogether. Then, both sides will have to deal (in a two-state scenario) with nation-states, not barely accountable groups of militia, that multiply and segment by the week, espousing different goals and ideologies. How this will come about, is however the crucial, stereotypical billion yen question! Once solution would be for the Palestinians to unilaterally declare a state and see what happens. There might by mayhem, but what could be worse than what we have now. Without a one-state or a two-state scenario, both sides bleed. After this solution, perhaps they would still bleed, but the issue could be taken up as one between two nation-states.

The late Eqbal Ahmad, once suggested, only half-jokingly, that perhaps the Palestinians, all of them, in Gaza, West Bank and outside in Jordan etc. could try a Gandhian, Dandi-like march, without any arms, without even a threat of violence, march past the security checks, the barriers. What's the worst that could happen. Perhaps a few hundred would be shot in the first few minutes, but what do you do with a few million behind them? Interesting thought-experiment there! What would Gandhi say?

Gill-so now self-hatred matches Islamophobia and becomes the new "Hindu identity"? Goron ke talve chatne ki aadat nahin gayi hamare logon ki - ek s**** bh***a jootein maar ke jaata hain apne khuda-kaum ke naam par. Saath mein bhadkata hain ek hindustani ko doosre hindustani ke khilaaf, aur woh bhi dharma ke naam par. Aur sirf is liye ki uska fayada hain! Lekin jab tak musalmano ko gaali de woh, tab tak tumhare jaise log dum hilate rahoge uske samne! Tumhare jaise Jaichando ne desh ko dubaya hai baar baar!


Ruvy - given your utter lack of understanding about India and Hinduism as well as your absolute fanatic bigotry regarding other religions, I suggest that you stay off this particular turf unless you are willing to hear some hard truths with gloves off. Of course,then again, you DO get special privileges for insulting other´s faiths while any critique of yours is flagged ANTI-SEMITISM, flagged by editors and any home truths that are told to you shall be deleted. Enjoy your little "chosen people" status for as long as it lasts as it seems that your tin pot real estate agent has been pulling a few strings!

Anamika, Its bad form to rip someone in a language they don't understand.

>>>Its bad form to rip someone in a language they don't understand. <<<<

HAHAHA what a joke!!! "rip someone"...... I guess she has no substance left to write....... Who and what she is defending???? when she can't even defend her own house...

It seems Anamka subconciously you still have somekind of racially inferiority complex......

And what ever i understood from your comment.. it is not any white man who is dividing Indian community... it is the institution of Islam and it all started with Mohm bin Kasim..... I guess in your fetishness you forgot what Pakistan and Bangladesh are????? I guess it was the Goras who came and told them that hey muslims you cannot live with hindus............

Hahaha another joke... Jaichand.... now lets be realistic ... who is the Jaichand.... here....you...

Anamika you and your fellow Dhimmis No one has seen heard any Indian Muslim institutions and its followers do the following

1. Express outrage at terrorist activities of fellow Muslims
2. Openly DISOBEY any Mullah who owes allegiance to Islam over Indian constitution.
3. Openly speak out against implementing Shariat in India.
4. 10 prominent Mullas declaring Pakistan as a terrorist nation; and continuing to reinforce that thought into their Indian Muslim community.

Therefore Anamika sorry to say in Indian context you are the "part" of problem -- terror and disunity......... and not solution.....by proxy you are aiding Islamizations of Muslim masses in India

No matter what kind of foul language or insults you use... you are still not the representative of Islamic institutions and its followers... in short you are making no difference to ground realities...

cs #66:

do you think gandhigiri is even an option?

ekbal ahmed should have considered another option suggesting all palestinians should embrace judaism en-masse...

automatic citizenship!

masla khatam...sub bhai bhai!

Temporal,

Gandhihiri a real option? No! Just a thougth experiment. The conversion to Judaism is another thought experiment! Then re-convert a year later, and masla khatam too!

Anamika wrote
<<<< Gill-so now self-hatred matches Islamophobia and becomes the new "Hindu identity"? Goron ke talve chatne ki aadat nahin gayi hamare logon ki <<<

Anamika
I guess even some Indian Muslims are living in Islamophobia because they are saying my words too,,,,,,i guess these muslims are unislamic...right....or maybe they are Hinduvadis!!!! Maybe it is time you should go back and consult your Islamists mentors as to why are certain muslims talking like Hindus.... and maybe have a Fatwa against these non-islamic Muslims...
-----------

Muslims silent as Pandits fled: Omar Abdullah
15 May 2008, 1717 hrs IST , PTI

SRINAGAR: National Conference president Omar Abdullah has accused Muslims of being mute spectators at the time of exodus of Kashmiri Pandits from the Valley in the 1990s.

"It's so easy to say that we will lay down our lives to bring Kashmiri Pandits back to the Valley and I appreciate the sentiment as I am sure the Kashmiri Pandits reading it will. Pity that sentiment was missing when our mosques were being used to drive these people out," Omar said in his blog on the official website of his party.

"None of us was willing to stand up and be counted when it mattered. None of us grabbed the mikes (microphones) in the mosques and said 'this is wrong and the Kashmiri Pandits had every right to continue living in the Valley," he said.

"Our educated, well-to-do relatives and neighbours were spewing venom 24 hours a day and we were mute spectators either mute in agreement or mute in abject fear but mute none the less.

"And talking about mosques -- what a great symbol of mass uprising they proved to be. While I can't claim to have lived through it I have enough friends who did and they tell me about the early 90's where attendance was taken in mosques to force people to pray," Omar wrote.

Questioning the spontaneity of processions taken out in 1990, Omar said people were forced out of their homes to participate in "mass uprisings" against "Indian occupation" and the same enforcement committees went from door to door.

given your utter lack of understanding about India and Hinduism as well as your absolute fanatic bigotry regarding other religions, I suggest that you stay off this particular turf unless you are willing to hear some hard truths with gloves off.

[Baiting edited]

[Switch and bait}

I received this e-mail in the last two days dealing with the issue of "Palestinian peoplehood". The Gazan Arab, Amin e-Husseini, was a disciple of Adolf Hitler, as was Anwar Sadat, Gamar Abdel Nasser and a host of other Arabs influenced by the Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt. So they learned from him the concept of the "Big Lie" repeated here and intoned endlessly like a holy mantra by those who swallow the Arab bullshit line hook, line and shwarma.

This article in FrontPage Magazine deals with the truth of the issue.

Ruvy:

""The only problem with the FrontPage Magazine article, as I see it, is that it refers to the resident Arab population as "Palestinians"....""

In other words, it undercuts the very "argument" that our friend is displaying "FrontPage Magazine" to make. Nice of him to be so upfront in discrediting himself. Saves me the trouble.

As for national or any social identity, it is not something that is manufactured in a factory with a specific date of manufacture and expiry attached to it. It is a "social identity", get it? It is forged in social contexts, get it? It is not for others to certify or deny people who may chose or reject a particular identity. Social identity is not a tangible thing like the wood which my brains are undeniably made of, get it? But our friend is so used to taunting fellow Jews as really non-Jews (ie. "Kikes", "Yids", "seculars"" etc) that he really believes that he is the ultimate thekedaar (identity contractor) doling out and denying identities to people whenever he fancies it. And here he even confers Thomas Friedmann of NYT the right to the thekedaari (identity contractor) of Palestinian identity. All very amusing for sure.

I received this e-mail from Allan Mallenbaum on 16 August 2006. It deals with the precise principles enumcited by the brilliant commenter in comment #78, to wit:

As for national or any social identity, it is not something that is manufactured in a factory with a specific date of manufacture and expiry attached to it. It is a "social identity", get it? It is forged in social contexts, get it? It is not for others to certify or deny people who may chose or reject a particular identity. Social identity is not a tangible thing like the wood which my brains are undeniably made of, get it?

This report looks at an issue little covered during the 2006 war - how Arabs treated fellow Arabs - specifically how South Syrian Arabs treated their fellows.

from Allan Mallenbaum:

Our TV and print news reports concentrated on the Lebanese "civilians" who were held as human shields by Hizbullah, some of whom were killed
in the fighting which they initiated, some of whom were able to flee as "refugees."

But there were Israeli refugees as well. Some one million Israeli citizens fled northern Israel for safety in the south, including many Israeli Muslims, especially from Haifa.

They soon discovered the true nature of their "brethren." They found out why these Islamic occupiers of Israel's ancient historic homelands of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza have been cast out of virtually every Arab or Muslim state in and around the middle east. They now understand why the balance of the Islamic world is so determined that they be given their own nation with "the right of return" - so that they can get rid of them!

The Mullahs and Sheikhs and Saudi princes - none of whom like or want this trash - whisper among themselves, "Foist them on the accursed Jews!"
Now Israeli Arab Muslims seem to agree with those evaluations....

-- Allan

ISRAELI ARABS' WAR EXPERIENCE
Roee Nahmias. YNET 16 August 2006

Several Arab families decided to act on Hizbullah Chief Hassan Nasrallah's "recommendation" and leave rocket-stricken Haifa during the war in south Lebanon. They traveled to Palestinian towns like Bethlehem and Ramallah, and even to east Jerusalem, but soon after decided they had rather return home and face the rocket menace. The reason: The bad treatment awarded to them in hotels, restaurants and stores, as well as ongoing harassments of their wives and daughters on the part of the local residents.

Ghani Abassi, married and a father of three daughters, decided to go with his family to Bethlehem and flee the Katyusha attacks. Abbasi traveled to the Palestinian town with some 10 other families from Haifa, who all chose to stay at local hotels. Unfortunately, this was when their true nightmare began.

"I waited for three days until I got a room. Then it turned out that the air conditioning wasn't working, and I was told that the reason was the high price of electricity. I decided that this wasn't that bad, because we felt we were among our brothers at the West Bank and were willing to endure the terrible heat, knowing we're safe and that our visit was also of financial help," Abbasi described to the website of the Israeli-Arab newspaper al-Sinara.

"However, the treatment we received was disgraceful and dreadful," he said. "We walked around town for a while, but the attitude we encountered on the part of the locals was horrible. The youngsters on the street started harassing our wives and daughters and used shocking expressions that I cannot even bring myself to pronounce," he said.

Another Haifa resident, who went with his family to Jerusalem to escape from the rocket threat, said that the local merchants blatantly took advantage of the situation and inflated the prices in stores. A bottle of mineral water that usually sells for about NIS* 4, for instance, was being sold to the Haifa tourists for NIS 10.

'Even foreigners are respected there'

"They told us, 'you are worse than the Jews.' We heard expressions of joy over the fact we have fled our homes, and some even tried to attack us. We were disgusted and decided to return to Haifa," he said, stressing that he used to be a regular donor to the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza. According to him, after that day and the humiliation he experienced in Bethlehem, he does not plan on donating even one shekel. "We thought we are one nation and that what really hurts them, hurts us too. We went to demonstrations for them and we donated a lot of money to them because we thought they are our brothers and that is our obligation. But, what we found was exploitation and undeserving treatment toward someone supposedly from the same nation," he told.

The same resident added that he expected the families from Haifa and Nazareth to be warmly received in the West Bank towns, but what took place was the exact opposite. Today he speaks with regret about the two days he spent in Bethlehem.

"While touring in Ramallah, a few youngsters said to us, 'you are the same as, even worse than, the Jews.' We tried to understand why they were acting that way toward us, but they attacked us and a fight broke out. We are very sorry for what happened and we couldn't have expected such an unfit welcome from members of our nation whom we had respected and appreciated very much. But they didn't respect us at all, and saw as worse than the Jews. We are very sorry for what happened and that we drove all the way there to see the painful truth that they don't respect us there," said Ghani Abassi.

Abassi added that the restaurants jacked up prices for customers because they thought they were foreign 'tourists.' "Even foreigners are respected there, but we, their own brothers, felt like they don't respect us, and my friends and I asked why? Are we unworthy of the respect due to members of the same nation?"

Following such treatment, Abassi and his friends hurried back to the lap of the Katyushas and air raid sirens of Haifa. "'We will never again make a donation or participate in a demonstration for the West Bank from now on," said one of them.

the following is an observation not an attack

Like I've been saying, there is no such thing as a Palestinian nationality. #78

as is evident from your own words posted on desicritics in the past, repeated, swallowed...(leaving, returning, leaving, returning...talking with someone, ignoring, talking, ignoring)...and more.... you have zilch credibility left

and

credibility is like virginity...you can only lose it once

so

like i have been saying...sir, you have no credibility left

Despite my overwhelming brilliance, or perhaps because of it, I cannot figure out how Ruvy's post # 78 demonstrates decisively that "there is no such thing as Palestinian nationality".

I get it: the key to this mystery lies in the first five words in the sentence below:

""Like I've been saying, there is no such thing as a Palestinian nationality.""

So this time, it's not G-d directly telling him, but his own repetition of what he believes is offered as "proof"! This is truly beyond the theatre of the absurd!

Let me try this pointless task again: Nations and they are not tangible objects such as the wood from the tree of the tree that constitutes my so-called brains. When was the last time anyone watched a nation walking by? And if not, do they not exist?? Or will our friend and some newspaper articles certify their existence or lack thereof? Nations exist as ideologies that are reinforced by certain institutions, rituals, practices, national athems etc. etc. etc.

Man, our friend keeps digging himself in absurd holes even when there is no more earth to dig....

All we need now are quotes form holy texts and recollections from personal conversations with God to prove that there is not such thing as a Palestinian people! The final coup de grace!

No reply!! (wah wah, jawaab nahin!)

you have no credibility left

The ill expressed opinion of a poet....

Nevertheless, I did not present my views here but a news article from the Hebrew press that can't stand the likes of me.

Not an attack, but a fact.

cs:

brace for more long and rambling cut n paste jobs followed by like am saying...

followed by immediate disowning

;)

Temporal,

always ready for despatches from absurdistan. our friend sure has a lot of determinedness (Random House Dictionary) in presenting his attacks as facts and proving point of view with many "like i saids", emails from folks nobody else has heard about and if all else fails, well there's always conversations with his own exclusive G-d.

Ana #67

Netaji Bose is the biggest jaichand as per your definition of Gaddars? he associated with much hated Hitler and Tojo.

But can you please tell me if you are more worried about sentiments associates of invaders or sentiments of victims of invaders?

you have no credibility left....

Talk about lost credibility folks! 'Dead Gazan' alive and kicking

Rights group got it wrong: Gaza cancer patient who 'died while waiting for permit' still alive

credibility is like virginity...you can only lose it once

The "poor Palestinian" South Syrian Arabs and the NGO's who consistently lie for them have as much credibility as a street whore hustling tricks in New York. Their "leaders" have been lying like rugs for the last eighty years.

From the story:

Stayin' alive: Muhammad al-Harrani, a father of six from Gaza diagnosed with cancer who reportedly died while waiting for a permit to enter Israel, miraculously "came back to life." This was not the result of a miracle, but rather, just part of the tactics used by al-Harrani's family in a bid to secure a permit for him.

Al-Harrani is currently awaiting an entry permit into Israel, so that he can undergo head surgery at Tel Aviv Sourasky Medical Center and receive radiation and chemotherapy treatment. At the end of April he was summoned to a questioning session at the Erez Crossing as part of the permit process, but the session was postponed by a week.

On the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day, al-Harrani's story was published. His family reported to the "Physicians for Human Rights" organization that he died. "The sick man could not withstand the wait for the permit," claimed Ran Yaron, Director of the Occupied Territories Department who blamed the Shin Bet for adopting cruel policies against cancer patients.

However, the next day, the organization discovered that al-Harrani was still alive. Members of group estimated that his brother, who reported the death, "killed" him so he does not report to the questioning session.

Palestinian terror groups launched a Grad rocket towards Israel from northern Gaza late Wednesday afternoon. The rocket crashed into a crowded shopping center in the city of Asheklon, wounding three people, one of them a baby girl.

Paramedics alerted to the scene said several other people were being treated for shock.

The Islamic Jihad has claimed responsibility for the attack.

I see that my Biblical quote did not get through on the last comment. Lets try it again:

"For Gaza shall be deserted, and Ashkelon shall become wasteland. Ashdod - At noon they shall drive her out, and Ekron shall be uprooted."[Tzefanyá 2:4]

And now the commentary from Rabbi David Kimkhe: The verse mentions the four main Philistine cities. G-d's wrath will be poured out against them, as well on the Day of Judgment.

It's not hard to see all this occurring in the near future.

Temporal,

You were a bit too charitable when you chided our friend (so to speak) Ruvy for not having depleted his "credibility". Somebody who can, in all seriousness, as it seriously appears to be the case, can write what he wrote (appended below), never had any credibility to begin with. And pretty soon, if I continue to "argue" with such biblical quotations and oracular pronouncements, will also have total credibility deficit. For anyone, still willing to take our friend Ruvy seriously (I obviously exclude the two bright lights of DC ie. Man Singh and Gill), please read this carefully and don't laugh. Sooner or later, the bible/torah, conversations with god are what provide the main cover for his apparent "rational arguments". Beyond belief, but here it is:


I see that my Biblical quote did not get through on the last comment. Lets try it again:

Ruvy: 86:

"For Gaza shall be deserted, and Ashkelon shall become wasteland. Ashdod - At noon they shall drive her out, and Ekron shall be uprooted."[Tzefanyá 2:4]

And now the commentary from Rabbi David Kimkhe: The verse mentions the four main Philistine cities. G-d's wrath will be poured out against them, as well on the Day of Judgment.

It's not hard to see all this occurring in the near future.""

It's not hard to see Ruvy reverting to, on the surface, sane and rational arguments once again, taking in unsuspecting newbies to DC, until once again, in the near future, he will once again quote divine texts and conversations with God to clinch debates about history or whether the Palestinians in fact exist or not!! Amazing. But, I repeat myself!

Except in the rare instance where I pray for the health of some writer on Blogcritics Magazine my conversations with G-d never have to do with the trash on the comment threads at an internet site such as this one.

But what is found in the Tana"kh is public and for you to find and check yourself. The commentary from Rav Kimkhe is also public, but you have to go to the commentaries to find them. I leave this to brilliant scholars such as yourself to do so on your own. I'm sure you are familiar with Google and other search engines.

in an illogical bid to make himself appear more "logical", our friend is now into quoting, not just holy jewsish texts, but the bible and the quran too....apparently triangulating his so-called "data" to "prove" his point. not unexpectedly, for a non-believer like me, this is truly beyond belief that he is not the only one who believes this stuff.

the trash on the comment threads at an internet site such as this one.

that's pretty negative, and reason should not require God's help, in fact that's why they call it reason, I believe.

the trash on the comment threads at an internet site such as this one.

that's pretty negative,

Yup, Aaman. That's pretty negative. You're right. But after several hundred comments of the contemptuous sniping, character assassination, insults of my faith, and more, it's hard not to get negative. So I give back with both barrels what I get, and a comment thread littered with anger, vicious attacks, contemptuous parody, and the like will read like trash.

I try hard to be a gentleman on a public forum, Aaman, and much prefer to be one. I think you know that from how many thousands of comments at Blogcritics?. But if I wish to stay and comment, and represent my people here, given what I see, the contemptuous sniping, character assassination, insults of my faith, I need to be as mean and as vicious and the meanest and most vicious person on here. And unless I'm banned, I will not be driven away. Period.

and reason should not require God's help, in fact that's why they call it reason, I believe.

There is more to the world than reason, whether we like to recognize it or not....

Ruvy:

""But what is found in the Tana"kh is public and for you to find and check yourself.""

Absolutely and totally irrelevant to any even half-rational discussion of historical issues. Reason may indeed be over-rated, but when compared to "emotion" and not "revelation" and ""religion".

Enuff said, even though you and your faith imbued ilk will never understand. And therein lies a major part of the problem vis-a-vis Palestine and Israel and many other such hot-spots. Folks like you have nothing positive to contribute to these issues....as for rabble-rousing negatives, where should I begin??

Ruvy:

""But after several hundred comments of the contemptuous sniping, character assassination""

You do a pretty reasonable job of assassinating your own character my friend! Read what you have written....

""insults of my faith, and more, it's hard not to get negative.""

What the fish??!! Playing the innocent victim again?? Nobody has ever "insulted" your faith. If you interpret it as such, best not to keep your faith away from rational discussions....easier done than said.

Ruvy:

"insults of my faith"

you have insulted your faith all the time by using terms like "kikes", "yids" to describe anyone who does not literally accept YOUR version of your faith. will you start accusing everyone of "anti-semitism" now? entirely predictable....

Exhibits that expose Ruvy's fake but predictable claims