Judaism, Religion, Power, & Success

http://amitscorpio.blogspot.com/2008/03/power-of-education.html

Jews conflict me. When I really think hard about them, I think they are very respectable and nice people, but on the surface they strike a raw nerve somewhere before this conscious thought occurs. I think it has to do with their insularity that does not allow any other group to penetrate it. Yes, they have a lot of education and Universities, but the problem is that everyone is not allowed to use them equally.

jesus in a jumpsuit, Anona...could you have packed MORE generalizations into your comment.

Take out the word Jew and put Muslim. If I said that wouldn't you think it was a strange comment? Not all Muslims are the same, right? Why on God's green earth would you venture to think that all of us are the same????

Actually, if someone said to me, "Muslims conflict me", or any other group, I don't think I would take immediate offense to it. Reason being is because people are confusing and in my quest to be a rounded human being I am trying to learn about all of them. Yes, it's easy to stereotype or overexaggerate tendencies in a group of people. I am sure there are people out there who don't like Muslims (actually I have run into a few Jews who didn't like me wearing a headscarf once), but I try not to base my biases on a few peoples actions.
I am not saying that my impulsive reaction towards Jews is right, but it is there. For me, the only way to turn it around would be to meet some Jewish people and learn their way of life. So far, the only Jewish people that have been welcoming towards me are the ones that aren't really very religious and are like typical Americans.

To be honest, desis are also quite insular people as a whole. They don't really want people hanging around and contaminating their social structure. It's almost like there are secrets in the society that they don't want everyone to know about.
this is not all-around bad thing because you can't just welcome every person, even Americans don't do that. There should be some sort of balance, and I think Jews are on the extreme side and I have seen this in my professional experience with them as well in community development. They like diversity, but expect the other groups to conform completely to them instead of opening up a bit and meeting half-way.

We are all product of nature and nurture. I do not believe nature is bias one way or other. When we are born Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. are all equally smart or dumb. It is the nurturing that makes the difference.

Religion does influnce nurturing. If not directly very certainly indirectly throgh culture. Culture is intertwined with religion. In order to find out why Jews are more successful than others, and there is no doubt about that, it is necessary to look into nurturing part. I think freedom of thought is the key. More the brainwash lesser the freedom. Perhaps this is where Islam suffers the most. Compliance with norm is good. But is it good for creativity? I am not sure.

Of course I forgot to mention genetic influance which is nature. But that too can be traced back to nurture slowly over a number of genearations.

@ why Jews are succesful

As why Jews are more succesful. There is a historical reason to this. In the 15th Century, Christianity gripped Europe.It was conisdered a sin in Christianity to earn money(excess). Thus most trade/professions slowly moved out of the Christian hands to the minority Jews for whom religion did not impede their business patterns.

Slowly after 4 centuries of consolidation, most of the financial power wrest with Jews. They are more artistic than other because their forefathers were the modern businessmen of world who got educated, took risks, earned money through sheer hardwork.

So it will not be a surprise that other religions play catchup to the Jews in the next century.

bd,

You should have focused your own article more on Moslems, and less on Jews. While Jews have achieved a great deal in the face of much adversity, we Jews have not had issues of sovereignty to plague us for almost twenty centuries. Now that we do, we are really doing lousy at handling them.

But looking at the article in The Star that you referenced, it focuses on Andaluz as the model for Moslem achievement. How many Hindus, Confucians and Buddhists lived in Andaluz? Hindus and Buddhists didn't hit the writer's radar for that reason.

The folks who lived in Andaluz were Christians, Jews and the ruling Moslems. The Moslems either fled, converted or died in the face of the Christian re-conquest of Spain and Portugal. The same for the Jews. The Turkish Sultan was heard to have mused how stupid the Spanish king was for kicking out the Jews of Spain.

But let's get back to the fellow of Turkish descent who wrote the article in The Star. There are lots of different cultures which all share Islam as a religion. Is the writer talking about Turkish culture, Indian (south Asian) culture, Arab culture, or Indo-Malay culture? All differ significantly and have different problems that stand in the way of the respective cultures reaching the heights of the no longer existing Andaluz.

Perhaps we should also note that by using Andaluz as a model (instead of say, Turkey at its height) the writer in The Star was able to hold out an alabaster castle to reach for - a very self-defeating attitude.

Ruvy

thanks for the note. Well, my basic problem is this, there is absolutely no intellectual basis to the argument that religion has anything to do with success. You pointed out some major intellectual chasms, etc. etc.

And frankly, using Andalus was a spectacularly stupid example as well. The actual time of Muslim renaissance in Spain was hardly 18 odd years out of hundreds of years of Muslim ownership and rule. So by simply pointing to few years does not mean that whole big swathes of Muslim civilisation was brilliant.

Look at India. Akbar's court was brilliant, Auranzeb's court (well, the little he was in Delhi, he was mostly bumming around in the deccan) was pathetic. So no, there is nothing at all to do with Islam.

Similarly, if Judaism was indeed the greatest of all, then one would have seen great deeds and actions coming out of the localities and regions where jews were political aware and active across the MENA region. How many Jewish scientists do we know emanating from the MENA region? Hardly any, so if it was due to religion, you would have seen jewish scientists in these regions as well...

sorry, gets off the soapbox...

And (climbs on the soap box), thanks to TBS, intellectuals and teachers seem to be the first on the firing line whenever something bad happens, whether it be bangladesh during 1971, or Iraq currently, or Iran during the revolution, or in Egypt during the revolutions and crackdowns. Like pol pot, seems like so many countries love to take out their teachers and intellectuals, but is it driven by religion?????

and Ruvy, I wouldnt be so harsh on your government, mate, I have met with your ministers (commercial and economic), and have studied the country, they are doing pretty well, more than 100 countries would love to have Israel's problems, I tell you

but mind you, it again has nothing to do with judaism. Not that i could find anyway.

I have met with your ministers (commercial and economic), and have studied the country, they are doing pretty well, more than 100 countries would love to have Israel's problems, I tell you

bd,

I'm glad to see that our commerce and economics ministers are doing something to earn the Volvo (and driver) and NIS 50,000 they are getting monthly. I would suggest to you that our culture of insisting that there has got to be a way around (or over) any problem, a culture very much influenced by Judaism, is at the source of the economic successes the nation has enjoyed.

In addition, I'd note that at the top, things are okay, and the country has the patina of a first world country. You can go into a supermarket and see American and European products for sale, the girls in Tel Aviv dress like they were in Paris or Rome, etc. etc.

As you go down the social and economic ladder, things get much worse and much harsher. They are no where near as harsh or as difficult as they are in India or Pakistan - but the term "first world country" becomes more and more of a joke, as Israelis trying to pull themselves up in the world start to see how limited opportunities are here. It goes without saying that many Arabs find things even more constricting.

This should be no surprise considering that 90% of the wealth is controlled by twenty families or so - a falafel republic.

There are things that work really well here - like medicine. And there are things that do not work at all - like education.

I realize that we are not at the bottom of the heap and that many countries look at us in envy. But there are systemic problems that need to be solved, like short-sightedness in terms of business judgment, and an unwillingness to make this country the leading and shining light not only of the Middle East, but of the whole huge region that we are the center of. We have it in us to do this.

And I haven't even gotten to problems of war and peace....

good luck bd, arguing with our friend from jerusalem...

Welcome back, Ruvy:)

Ruvy

well, let me home into the point which you raised, about judaism influencing a culture. Well, my friend, we can point to various other religious or other civilisations such as sinic (invention of gunpowder to current high growth rates) or Hindu (again growth rates or previous mathematical prowress) or Panama (investments and growth rate) or Japan (for patents) or USA (for patents) etc. etc.

We can point to many other aspects, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and all other isms also suggest that you dont faff around and work your backside off and be nice citizens. But that still does not explain why somebody would see Judaism as unique in terms of producing scientists, economists or musicians...

the fact that Israel has done well, how much are we going to link that to jewish religion? and if we are, then what's missing in other religions? or was there in other religions?

there is no intellectually strong argument which backs up this idea that jews are divinely gifted to be successful and muslims are not. That's where I am coming from :)

as for Israeli society, well, yes, but look around you. Do the sewers work? Do you have public toilets? Do you know how many countries do not even have that? (start with bloody France where finding a public toilet in say Lille or Paris is like impossible...)

#14, cs, come on, mate, its fun to debate, comes with the bong territory, lol, remember the quote? 3 bongs and 4 debates will happen?

There is no reason to believe that Jews are devinely gifted. Perhaps they are endowed with better genes.

Following is just a conjecture on my part. Jews had been discrimated in the past. People when they feel discrimated, try harder. Also they prefer to choose profession where they do not have to depend on some one employing them. This give them a better chance at success. Perhaps Sikhs are having a similar experience in the west.

As far as muslims are concerned, I think nurturing is a key factor. Freedom to think without restrain is necessary for creativity. I wonder whether not so logical dictum of Islam creates a restraint. Islam not only give religion but also give Islam food(halal), Islam law(sharia) Islam finace(banking) and perhaps more. Would'nt that create limitation on thinking? Jews on the other hand in spite of Judaism have been always free thinking people and challenging the prevailing wisdom.

#18, well, could well be, Morris, but that's an indirect reason. We have many other discriminated nationalities in the past. Take for example the black americans in USA, if that is indeed the case, then we should hopefully see a similar kind of patents, nobel prizes, socio-economic achievements, company start up, etc. etc.

If that is indeed the case, then how come Liberia did not replicate Israel (i know this is very simplistic, but you know what i mean....)....

Well, there seems to be a bit to consider here in the comments above.

First of all, I'm not interested in arguments, but I certainly am interested in conversations....

That borne in mind, bd, I need to think a bit about your observations, and responding to Morris' observations will help me get my thoughts in order.

Being discriminated has not made us smarter - it has just made us more prone to viewing ourselves as victims, and has given us a healthy dose of paranoia with respect to the intentions of others towards us.

The emphasis in Jewish values, even in the decrepit Polish-Russian society my father came from, were always on learning and preserving the Law we were given at Sinai.

Let's take a look at some of the consequences of this orientation.

In Yemeni Jewish society, for example, kids from the age of five were taught Torah (the first five books of the Hebrew Bible) until they knew it by heart; then they were taught the entire Tana"kh (our name for the Bible) until they knew it by heart.

Only after they knew both fully, were they allowed to learn Gemará and Talmud, and then later, the Zohar. I got a dose of this knowledge from an 80 year old man a few days ago, when he was able to quote the Scroll of Esther by heart. This fellow does not show outwardly that he is religious - but his thorough education showed through.

The Tana"kh is not a short book, and in addition to knowing it by heart, Yemeni Jewish kids were taught to question why our sages interpreted this or that line one way or another.

Obviously, not every kid is a genius and many do not excel at this, but the point is that they were all exposed to this.

Jewish kids in Eastern Europe were not taught the Tana"kh as rigorously, and instead were taught the Gemará. The Gemará is a text with rabbis arguing over the various lines in the Torah, attempting to derive meaning from them. In essence, what the children were learning was legal reasoning. The effect of steady learning of Gemará is that it gives the student an analytical mind, and listening to arguments about the Talmud is akin to listening to lawyers argue an issue.

The religious Jew has been expected over the centuries to continue learning the Law - either the Tana"kh, the Talmud or the Zohar, as an adult through his entire life.

One consequence of the above is that an abnormally high number of Jewish men have been literate (at least in Hebrew and Aramaic) over the millennia in a world where illiteracy has been the norm.

On Sabbath mornings, I usually go to the early dawn service. It's quiet, so it's easier to pray, and there is a kiddúsh, a meal begun with a ceremony blessing wine, afterwards. During the kiddúsh, there is always a discussion about the parashát hashavúa, the section of the Torah chanted that week. It's not a sermon, like the Christians have, but a discussion, though I tend to be quiet because of my own limited knowledge, both of Torah and of Hebrew.

Finally, there is the Hebrew Scribal Tradition. The Torah is copied on parchment scrolls using special inks, and it is copied one single letter at a time. Before each letter is copied, a blessing has to be said, and the appropriate kavaná, or intent, achieved. Why is this done this way? What's the point? The Torah is regarded as the Word of G-d. So, no mistakes are allowed in misinterpreting or mis-copying it. A mistake on the scroll means that the portion of the scroll containing it has to be buried and a new portion started over - and the cost for the parchment and ink comes out of the pocket of the fellow employed to do the copying. Since there was no Sir Speedy or Kinkos for Moses to run to when he got the Law, this method of copying was instituted. And the result?

The Torah has approximately 305,000 letters and there are three versions in use today. Among all three versions, there are NINE differences among the 305,000 letters. That works out to 000002.95% difference or variance over 3,500 years.

Now, I'm not saying that other religions are deficient for not having these qualities in their practice, nor am I arguing that Jews are Divinely Gifted with more brains. But in order to preserve the Law, the Divine Charge we have as Jews, we have adopted the practices you see described above. So in order to follow a Divine Commandment, we have a particular set of nurturing rules (what Morris points out above, albeit with respect to Moslems), and these rules dictate a high rate of literacy, an ability to absorb large amounts of information, and an argumentativeness that Jews are (in)famous for. In addition, there is the issue of adapting the customs of our native land to places as far off and as diverse as Anchorage, Andaluz, or the Andamans. In order to do this you have to view all problems as having a solution, because you are impelled to solve the problem (adapting the Law to the place in question) in order to follow the commandment in question.

This brief explanation above is offered to back up my assertion that Judaism has created a culture that works hard at solving problems. This culture is the one that produces kids who hack through defense ministry websites, invents firewalls, cell phones, and who do engineering wonders - and who then have a good time drinking árak or dancing till dawn.

I just wanted to make a brief addendum to comment #20. Jewish education has come down terribly from the levels achieved in Yemen, where Jews were persecuted and sat at the lowest level of the society, and from Poland, where Jews rebelled from the poverty stricken villages they inhabited. This has been the result of assimilation in the West, and forced secularization by the ruling élites here.

bd, I agree what I was suggesting about discrimination does not wash very well. I do think, however, that it got to be nurturing.
What else could it be. Nurturing that favours free thinking over generations may improve genes so long as breeding remains within the group.

Ruvy, I do not know much about Judaism. But I did have a few co-workers who were jews. I found them aggressive and goal oriented. What you described above is a way of nurturing. Perhaps it is affecting in the positive way. I do feel that more the regimentation in thinking lesser the creativity. Conversely, freer the thinking more the creativity. I am not sure what you discribed above supports my thinking.

Morris, we agree about nurturing here.

In order to help you see how you get independent thinking out of a religious system that appears to militate towards appeal to authority, you need to consider two factors that I cannot emphasize enough.

1. Every male Jew is expected to learn to read Hebrew and Aramaic sufficiently to at least chant a portion of the Prophets or Writings from the Tana"kh when he turns 13. In the case of religious Jews, this training continues after age 13 and is characterized by the person going to a yeshiva, literally a meeting, and DISCUSSING the laws (often arguing over them, replete with table banging, etc.) This requires independent thought.

2. Over the centuries, Jews have had to take a Law suited to the Land of Israel and somehow shoehorn its observance into hundreds of varied environments that have nothing in common with the Homeland. This too, requires independent thought and often a great deal of imagination.

closing the italics here.

"MAY ALLAH BLESS THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY "

why Muslims want blessings of Allah only to Muslim community and not for humanity as a whole?

I remeber since my childhood praying for welfare of whole creation not only whole humanity.
I am sure all Indians might have heard this :

Sarve bhavantu sukhinah, sarve santu niramayah
sarve bhadrani pashyantu, na kashchid dukhmapnuat.

( May all be happy, May all be healthy, may I see wlefare of all and nody should be inflicted with grief)

Even in Bhagwadgeeta Lord Krisha again and again stresses that basic qualification of spritual person is `sarva bhoot hite ratah'eg shloka 4/chap 12 (the person engaged in welfare of all living and non living beings)

Let's use this valuable web space promote such universal human values and not narrow `my community should be blessed' type items?

Ruvy
Thank you. I think it does support my thinking. Thinking without limitation (due to religious belief or any other process of nurturing) is necessary for creativity.

What do think bd?

Ruvy,

you have given me much food for thought. I can well see the interesting aspects behind pushing jewish children to do well.

But here's the challenge, that kind of education is found in other places as well. Challenge and argumentation, debate and discussion is found in secular, christian, chinese, japanese, black, green, every culture.

What I am saying is that that kind of educational push is not unique even if its impressive in the case of Jews.

Take the example of innovation that you mentioned, a very large amount of technical innovation comes out of Israeli labs and firms relating to security because of two reasons (1) the security establishment and public investment and (2) the fact that most israeli's have to do military service and are exposed to security related issues.

hacking, frankly, is more done in eastern europe and russia compared to Israel, and believe you me, I get to see the global picture on the hacks.

I am not denigrating Israel, it has done very good and very well. Yes, judaism has an indirect role to play, but as I mentioned, all the factors (curiously, most of the Jewish Nobel, Fields and other prize winners are not actually practising jews...) are not religion specific.

In other words, if I had to draw a straight line between number of patents, GDP growth rate... to religion, it would be a very very hazy and diffuse line.

More comments

yes, I can well believe that judaism provides an environment that pushes people to question and think.

But so does Christianity......

Morris #26, sorry, I forgot to pull your name into the discussion as well.

Yes, nurturing is definitely done, but if I walk into a school class in Finland or say in the United Kingdom or even think back to my time in the jesuit school in India, I can safely say that we were also encouraged to argue, debate, discuss, think, challenge....., so the religious dimension is there but not just it...

bd, I think there is nothing else but nurturing and genes. And genes too are the result of nurturing, an evolutionary process over a very long period. You are trying to find something definitive which does not exist.

We cannot determine a nurturing process that will guarantee a desired result. All we can do is to improve odds. Whether we can manipulate genes is a different subject.

It is the 'why' part of nurturing that helps develop mind is the key. Mind that starts with a set of beliefs is less likely to be creative than that which starts without any. Jesuits do debate very well. But their starting point is not free. They start with Bible. I think religion has a lot do with this kind of nurturing. Anyway, this is just a hypothesis. I am sure there are exceptions.

bd,

I realize that you are not denigrating Israel or Jews. I am a far sharper and harsher critic both of this society and its government, and of my culture, than you are.

I, for one, will tell you that Israeli culture, in its present permutation, will not produce many Nobel Prize winners. This has nothing to do with intelligence, but everything to do with the idea of group involvement that is pushed in Jewish culture.

kol yisraél ever ze el ze... "All Israel is involved one with another."

Nobel Prizes are not won this way.

But, most importantly, I'm not trying to make comparisons. The facts speak for themselves. Jews, tiny in number, have made contributions to the betterment of mankind far out of proportion to their numbers. This is not boastful bragging. This is just fact.

What I say does not lessen the contributions of all those of other nationalities and religions to the betterment of mankind. Those contributions are also fact, and rather than sneering that Arabs have produced few Nobel Prize winners, for example, one should look at the contributions of Moslems and Arab culture to the betterment of mankind, including their Nobel Prize winners, thanking G-d that they have been made; the same goes for Indians, Pakistanis and the rest of mankind.

I believe you are asking the wrong question. The question you should be asking is "why such a tiny people have succeeded the way they have, and what it may signify about that people in terms of the rest of mankind?"

With that I must leave you for now, to make my own paltry living.