Freedom for Tibet - Standing Up To China

Why does India not speak up more loudly? One word - Kashmir

aaman you must be the reincarnation of the invisible man;)

Fuck China!

Aaman,

Not at all. The whole world knows the Chinese are devious bastards. We dont speak against China because the Chinese are more powerful today than they used to be, maybe 50 years back. They beat us very easily in 1962. They can squish us like a mosquito today.

If you are talking about why the govt. doesnt speak against China on Tibet, you have to give credit to India's greatest tragedy in recent times - our 1st Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru and his China policy.

Helped by the inherent laziness, small heartedness, cowardice, shortsightedness and sheer stupidity of our political and administrative class, Chacha's approach - lick the enemy's butt, pray and hope for the best - still continues to dictate our foreign policy, esp. towards China.

India's greatest tragedy left his body in 1965 but his unwanted legacy - half a century of border problems and skirmishes with China (and Pakistan) - still survives and threatens to trouble India well into the future.

This is the price you pay when you have romantic old fucks in powerful positions. First, it was the half naked fakir calling off the "Noncooperation Movement" because there were a few riots. Its intended result and the fakir's final goal arrived after a quarter of a century, well after millions more Indians were killed and much more blood was shed than during those riots.

Second, it was Chacha himself trying to be romantic and trying to look great and noble during his period as PM.

Then, it was the poetic Atal Bihari Vajpayee trying to match the fakir and Chacha duo in officially recognising Tibet as an integral part of China in 2003. Atal has many more achievements to his credit - the IC-814 hijack and release of Maulana Masood Azhar (who went back to Pak and started killing more people) being the most shining of them all.

Atal was followed by another romantic old fuck, albeit more sophisticated and with more academic achievement to his credit - Manmohan Singh, who was never spotted shedding tears after any of the innumerable terrorist attacks that occured during his government (or the lack of it.)

And now, BJP has Advani as the next prime ministerial candidate. I really shudder to think what achievements he has planned in his mind! I dont want to vote for Advani. I cant vote for Rahul Baba either - who just began a trip to "discover India." Then there's that UNPA coalition led by another bunch of opportunistic old fucks.

What a fucking mess this country is! With such a distinguished political and administrative class, it is no surprise India really has no direction.

The elephant just moves its lazy butt along here and there, spreading its stink, trumpeting time and again that it is the next superpower. Irritated and amused people around the world cant help say - India cant manage affairs around its own neighbourhood. Its not even a regional power.

India sucks!

India must stop worrying about TIBET.

Atlantean #3: can't agree more even if i was fucked.

China has usurped large swathes of Arunachal Pradesh and contend India's claim on territory in that area.

Tibet's predicament is not a distant problem, it is a test case for India to show that it can stand up to China's pugnacious aggrandizement and stop its inebriated march to lustily slurp at the shores of the Bay of Bengal.

we can't wait for our effete politicians to stand up. the people have to lead the charge. at our own individual level, we have to stop contributing to China's economic growth by refusing to buy their cheap and shitty products and advocating such consumer preferences within our circle of influence. this will make their politicans and people realize that they live in an inter-dependent microcosm, not in a industrial and human wasteland dotted by red flags, creeping with dis-enfranchised, dehumanised homo sapien bots sticking 'Made in China' stickers on lead filled plastic toys and hair rubber bands made from used condoms.

I am sorry but I can't help disagree.

We have several problems to resolve with the Chinese, sticking a finger in their already smelly posterior on Tibet (no matter how tempting the proposition, given our intense hurt since the 62 bollicking they gave us) knowing the general angst between us isn't going to help at all.

Our list of hassle with the Chinese starts at the border issue, trade, collaboration in IT, Automotive, Textiles, and the list goes on...one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist, if you get them, they will get you back and that's how this game gets played out.

India has a dozen screaming insurgencies in the north east, proxy chinese buggery through the Pakistani's in J&K, Maoist (PWG and Naxal) gangbang and a zillion other separatist movements in return for a few Chinese ones.

If the Chinese return the favour overtly, which I am sure they already do covertly, the consequence will be a huge shit storm. We've all heard runours about our friendly neigbourhood commies being payrolled by the Russians and the Chinese time and again. Presume this for a second to be true; imagine then the kind of influence the Chinese potentially hold over this nation for making trouble. The left has prostituted the UPA and continues to lead at least 2 states in this country into a certain shit, so I am not very enthusiastic about their antics.

MHA permitted demonstrations in in Bangalore, New Delhi and HP, forget China, these people would have had their bollocks chopped for far lesser sins in the Middle East, Russia or East Europe even so called western democracies! A quick report on what they have done for Tibet will make India look like a candidate for sainthood. Yes, even the United States (CIA fuelled 15 year war) abandoned the Tibetan cause in the 60s, besides some speeches in the Congress, even they don't like to fiddle with the Chinese as there are far higher stakes else where.

See http://www.kentlaw.edu/perritt/courses/seminar/agb-final-seminar.htm for anyone with a real hard on Tibet.



Please don't forget that it was the Nehruvian legacy that brought the Tibetan influx to Dharamsala in 1959, that has alienated the local Gaddi people no end. The ensuing fucking we got from the Chinese in 1962 suddenly starts making sense.

We are a nation of many nations that has come together by a resounding fate that is the fait accompli of a Mongolian-Mughal rapacity followed by a British-colonial consolidation followed by its collapse. What moral authority can we afford when Kashmiri Pandits get raped and kicked out of their homeland; closer to home, this whole MNS attempted ethnic cleansing, and yes it is exactly that! Don't forget today's Bosnia is yesterday's small movement like this. This multitude of state formation, Chhatisgarh, Maharashtra, Karnataka, this Pradesh and that fucking Pradesh, its headed towards Balkanisation that will make current terrorism seem like a storm in fart in a storm. Unless of course the same inertia that all of you are talking about in such disparaging terms, takes a turgid piss on all these movements and gives them a tepid wet burial just like Punjab and now J&K, hopefully North East and then Naxal. I am for one am a great believer in the Indian Inertia (Some may recognise this as nationhood), its taken a lot of pounding and still come out on tops again and again.

The Chinese before Communism were many regions, nations, just as India was before the Mughal, British, Partition evolution. The Chinese were turned by Communism into a Authoritarian regime which is what they are without out doubt, and now without getting into protracted mores of their claimed nationhood over Tibet, let me say this:

We need peace and quiet just like the Chinese do for economic progress. This peacenik stuff is good to write and makes the soul feel all mushy and nice but does not do much for hard nosed geopolitics. For once, I can't fault India's handling of the matter.

Tibet is a wet dream, India has many of its own, depending on whether you believe in the nation theory or not, either way who gives a shit!

China is an expansionist, authoritarian state. Shael seems to forget who's armed Pakistan with nuclear weapons, who is covertly arming Nepalese Maoists, who is building a military port in Gwadar, who has built a military listening post in the Cocos Islands, who has mapped the seafloor in the Bay of Bengal to park ballistic missile submarines, who has built airbases and missile bases in Tibet.

China's intentions towards India are not benign. They are already diverting Tibetan waters, fully aware that these waters are the source for lower riparian India. They could choke us off, and cause us to cease to exist.

China is the reason why India needs nuclear weapons.

@shael---"This peacenik stuff is good to write and makes the soul feel all mushy and nice but does not do much for hard nosed geopolitics"

I know the stuff is good. But don't u think that what you are saying are on the line of treading a path that leads to a signboard that says " Principles and ethos are useless in the current scenario and should be discarded."

India needs to stand up against China not because it is good for her political future or viceversa.

India or for that matter any country has a moral responsibility to call a wrong as a wrong. Human rights violation is a human rights violation-no more no less.

This concept of treating a specific province or any part of a country as a piece of real estate owned by that country is a main problem. Why should India insist that Kashmir belongs to them any more than China insisting that Tibet belongs to them. Neither Kashmir nor Tibet are piece of real estate. It is the people living on that land detemines where it belongs. I am not suggesting that they allow illogical breakup up of a nation. But if there is a viable size of population distinct from the genaral population of that country on a large enough historically defined piece of land then it desrves some consideration. India having handled Kashmir problem the way they did, has no moral authority to question China.

Kashmir problem has been handled so badly that India has refugees within the country. That generally happens in Banana republics.

Morris,

The way India treats Kashmir and China treats Tibet is vastly different.

Jammu and Kashmir enjoys considerable autonomy under the Indian state via Article 370. There's so much autonomy that Jammu and Kashmir is allowed to fly its own flag.

Indians from outside J&K are NOT allowed to buy property inside J&K and only people in the J&K still enjoy Article 19(1)(f) - the Right to Property - which was removed as a fundamental right in 1978 for the rest of India.

J&K is the only state in India which has a separate Constitution.

No emergency except President's Rule and National Emergency due to external conflict can be imposed in J&K.

Kashmiris enjoy considerable freedom of expression and regularly voice their grievances against the Indian state. There are a number of newspapers in the state, some even propagating separatist views.

In fact, some political parties like BJP demand the abolition of Article 370 saying that it provides for excessive autonomy and prevents national integration.

Contrast this with Tibet's position in China. Far from protecting the rights of native Tibetans, China follows a policy of forcing a large influx of ethnic Han Chinese into Tibet against Tibetans' wish to effect a large scale demographic shift in Tibet - something that will alter Tibet's character and probably its very existence (other than as a province of China) forever.

As we are seeing now, Tibetans enjoy virtually NO freedom of expression under Chinese imperial rule. They do NOT enjoy the right to protest. There's only one newspaper in Lhasa and that is the official Communist party's mouthpiece.

Tibet is referred to as "Tibetan Autonomous Region" in China but as we can see that is an absolute joke! Tibet is autonomous only in name.

If you contrast the way China handles Tibet and India handles Kashmir, you can see how much China needs to grow up as a nation vis-a-vis India. It is perhaps the most insecure of all great powers in the world today, the most imbecile and among the rudest.

India, in contrast, comes out as a wiseman who understands how to respect the popular aspirations of a specific region. India always seems to have space for everybody without compromising its national integrity. China, in contrast, with its handling of Tibet, looks like an arrogant, insecure and petulant 12 yr old child whose Cadbury Eclairs is in danger of being snatched away by 6 yr olds!

Please stop linking Kashmir to Tibet.

China sucks! All that it has to boast about is a 2000 year old brick wall, plagiarism, cheap footwear, poorly manufactured fireworks and, of course, Communism. Fuck China!

Atlantean

I agree with most of what you said. If you are saying that China's treatment of Tibet is awful. No argument. If you are saying that Idians enjoy all kind of freedom. No argument. But that is not what I am talking about. What I am asking is, should it be a part of India. And how do you decide that. That is where comparision with Tibet comes. How do you decide whether it should not be a seperate Country.

India considers kashmir as unique state. Why? Why all those articles you stated are necessary? Why refugees coming from there to other parts of India? Why Indians cannot buy property there? Why all these turmoils there? Why they need a seperate constitution? Answer to all these questions is simple. It does not belong with India. India is using all these carrot and stick(mainly carrot) methods and hoping that this will be acceptable all in the long run. I think in the long run mionorities will become insignifant and the situation will remain untenabele. And perhaps my fear is that it won't remain a part of India because India is so nice and naive. If they were not so naive, they would have allowed other Indians to flood that region just like China is doing. Actually the reverse is happening.

My main point was that we cannot keep a large geographical area attached to a country against the will of the people. That is the comparision. They are recognizing Kosovo as a seperate country. Well, Serbia cannot do much about it. China on the other hand is a big power. Who is going to bell that cat? India may not be as strong as China, but India too can defy world opinion and get away. And having done so they cannot object what China is doing.

As happens far too often on the web, too much rhetoric than actual information or understanding. And way too many people with opinions that are delinked to history or facts.

Abhinandan: Even the UN admits that the Tibetans in India are one of the few refugee "success" stories. They have retained their own identity while contributing to the Indian state in a way that no other refugee population has (the unsung heroics of Tibetan soldiers serving the Indian cause dates back to the 1971 war and extends even to the most recent Kargil conflict). This has meant dedicated cooperation between the refugees and a consistent policy of the Indian government (despite changes in political dispensation) over half a century. So not sure what drives your overwrought hand-wringing now?

Aaman: I assume that Kashmir is the reason that India created the 22 - manned by Tibetans and led by Indian officers back in the 1960s? Or that as recently as the NDA government, the Free Tibet movement was housed in the Defence Minister's official residence (despite Chinese protests) Or that we continue to be the only country that not only gives the Dalai Lama a home but continue to accept refugees on a permanent basis from Tibet? Or that we continue to argue Tibet's cause in the world fora even as western countries cut their deals with China even at the cost of excluding Tibet's government in exile and the Dalai?

Morris: Agree that the Left is mum on the Tibet but thats because they cant get past their obsessive love with Ch..Ch...China! Especially since the fall of the Soviet Union proved that Communism was nothing more than a chimera.

Atlantean: Great for standing up to the ridiculous equivalences between Kashmir and Tibet.

Meanwhile does ANYBODY bother reading history? Even as recent as the independence of India (and the war over Kashmir) or the Mountbatten papers (released in 2000) which point out how the British helped the Pak invasion of the kingdom of J&K as part of their broader strategy of keeping south Asia weak and maintaining Pakistan as a buffer state for their continuing "great game."

Finally - India has shown a great deal of dedication to the Tibetan cause for over half a century. Making statements to the press/parliaments is not the only or indeed the most productive way of conducting international politics.

At the same time, India has kept its own national needs as the priority over "principles" - that means yes, we need to keep engaging with China as an adversary as well as a geo-strategic partner. And if that means we dont push Tibet's agenda publicly at ALL times, well thats called realpolitik.

If you look at the past 5 decades, India has walked a very fine line between its own evolving geostrategic interests and its "principled" stance on Tibet. And more than any other country, its been harder for us - after all, we share a disputed border with China, we've dealt with a Chinese invasion, and still take their continuing occasional sabre-rattling. And despite all of this, we've been a hell of a lot more coherent and "principled" in our stand towards Tibet than any other "democratic" nation.

Finally, for all those hand-wringers over Tibet - what would you like India to do? Break off relations with China? Threaten war? Or boycott the Olympics? None of these are options that will help INDIA's security or prosperity. So why should we be doing any of that?

Good summation, Anamika. As we've mentioned before, you'd be a great Desicritics author:)

India needs to improve its strategic capabilities in order to ward off Chinese pressure, and more effectively stand up for the Tibetans and Tibet. China needs to be exposed for the ruthless and brutal monoethnically homogenizing meatgrinder that it is.

Anamika-As it happens far too often on the web, too much rhetoric than actual information or understanding. And way too many people with opinions that are delinked to history or facts.

The majority of the junta here uses the net to get an insight into the facts unless there is someone like you who has access to classified information.

Anamika the same thing can be said about ur comments- are not they rhetoric in nature? I have already stated in my article that India's responsibility shouldn't just be limited to offering refuge. And as for you questioning the "understanding' of other contributors- I will term it as a statement that should have been avoided.

You say that India continues to argue about Tibet in the international forum? How? By asking China to exercise restraint while continuing the
genocide?

You have written that @ Making statements to the press/parliaments is not the only or indeed the most productive way of conducting international politics.

Kindly enlighten me what are the other 'visible' ways? If India cannot speak about what it thinks about China in it's own parliament then I don't know what other platform it wants?

you talk about India adopting the most 'principled' stand than any other democratic country.. well all I can say is that it seems that we draw water from two different well because principle is not just about talking good but its more about acting good which India has not.

"I say, there -- Stop... or... I'll say Stop again..."

"I say, there -- Stop... or... I'll say Stop again..."

-Robin Williams, performing for the British Royal Family

Do we really think the monster Chinese government cares two hoots about international opinion and a few shrill but feeble voices of condemnation? I don't think so. They will go forward and execute their oppressive policies without batting an eyelid. They have been doing this for more than 60 years now!

The Indian government never had the b**ls anyways to play ball at the international level. They are too scared of putting off China, and are desperately trying to be in the good books of China, acting like a simpering lapdog (even when the master has nipped the ears and is threatening to cut the tail - Askai Chin and Arunachal).

Strategically, one thing is true, that current Indian military and defense strength is far inferior to the Chinese. A military confrontation would be disastrous for India now. China has more nukes and a larger, superior army and would crush India like swatting flies. India HAS TO build up its military might to even think of giving China a good fight.
One can check up the CIA Factbook to compare the respective military strengths of India and China

The question now is should India protest, on the grounds of freedom and justice, for the sake of humanity, and risk putting off the Chinese, when it is absolutely clear that India is almost powerless to protect the Tibetans, and any high level political protests would be of no use??

And finally, as some people may have already pointed out -
Does it make sense to condemn your neighbour who is burning down his backyard, when you have plenty of leaks and a flooded basement in your own home?

tibetans? Uighurs? american removal of objections over Sino HR violations?


action over rhetorics

LINK

Abhinandan: Nothing classified in my text - just pick up any book on Indian military history or Tibet/India engagement and the information will be available.

As for what all beyond providing refuge India has done for Tibet - remember 1962? There was ZERO reason for India to back Tibet given our lack of military and economic strength back in 1962 and even now. And after that rather overbearing warning, India continues to to host the Tibetan government in exile. In fact, AFTER 1962, India became the launching grounds for missions in Tibet - providing logistical support as well as training, officers etc.

As I said before - READ a little before going off on a tirade. India's stand has been consistent: that Tibet is occupied, that there is a government in exile in Dharamsala, and that this needs to be resolved but not at the cost of Indian interests. The Tibetan government understands that position and respects it (although obviously they dont like it). And China recognises that as well.

What India will not (and SHOULD not) do is to try forcibly prying a half-shattered bone from the lion's mouth...

Aaman: Thanks yet again. But given the absolute lack of time, no way I could.

I worked in China a year back. I was once in a five star restaraunt with a soft nonvegie. We were enquiring about menu if it had beef or not.

There was this Tibetan waiter, a young lad fresh from college. He was in India. He understood Kannada and spoke Hindi fluently. HE spoke Mandarin as well. I asked him whether he liked to be in China. He nodded.

Religion is allowed in China to an extent. So Buddhisim can flourish. Chinese treated me very well when I was in China and I feel the place is almost an extension of India at times. Culturewise we are very different, but the challenges are the same.

China has developed a lot and we have a lot of catchup to do. Now TIBET cannot be made an issue even if we want to as Tibetians need China more than they need us. Remember the silk route we had earlier. Also the transport to TIBET is marvellous with the high altitude train? Why do we want to rake this issue which comesup only when we have high profile events like
a) US president visiting China
b) Olympics

Irrespective of country, we can have a trans-Asia trade and still subsist together. TIBET is autonomous and like KAshmir has special privilidges compared to other Chinese.