Office Spouses, The Internet, and Other Marital Dangers

hmmm... I had a work husband. his wife and my boyfriend both knew about it. when you have a career and are at office some 50-60 hours a week you are naturally going to bond with someone. this guy was someone whom I could rely on at work to make my day bearable. it was not a flirtatious relationship. we would know that the other had our backs in important meetings. we would argue politics. we would talk about inane stuff to pass time. we would go out and have a drink after a particularly ugly day.

his wife was happy to know he had someone to lean on other than a guy who would keep him out all night. that it was a woman was no issue. I was not out to steal her husband. my boyfriend was not threatened because we were secure in our relationship and he trusted that I would not cheat on him.

the problem comes in a relationship where one of two things occurs... the first is that there is an imbalance... say one spouse has no other outlet and become jealous and mistrustful. the second is that there is something missing in the relationship, and lack of communication aids in someone looking outside the marriage for fulfillment.

Now I do not think a spouse should be expected to provide all kinds of support. what do I mean by that? well that person should be your best friend and your lover, but not your EVERYTHING. my husband hates political discussions and I cannot live without them. I have other friends to fill that gap. He loves trekking and I do not, so he has other friends with which he shares that hobby.

When people are not free to express themselves with friends, and trust that it is only a friendship, that is when disaster strikes.

Well, the way I see it friendships between opposite sex is different from becoming an office spouse and it just isn't work or common interests that they discuss but it leads to emotional investments that are best devoted to their respective marriages.

I've seen this happen and its natural for spouses not to like it, one marriage even went on rocks over the issue.

Thing is when people can't live without each other's company on a daily bases the dangers are very much present and its not a friendship anymore but something more.

I think it's not reasonable to think you or your spouse will not have emotions invested elsewhere. if we can accept that we will have friends of the same sex where we have an emotional investment in the relationship, why not members of the opposite sex?

It is only natural to form bonds with other humans irregardless of gender. the point is that if you are married you have chosen a spouse so there are boundaries that you do not cross. emotional intimacy with someone outside your spousal relationship is not the problem. it only becomes an issue if you do not respect boundaries, do not have trust with your spouse and start to shut the spouse out.

jealousy is most often the culprit. one needs to be secure in one's relationship AND with one's self in order to not be jealous. if one person in the relationship has low self esteem and also does not trust the spouse, the spouse will naturally go looking for someone who is more self-assured. I am not blaming the victim, but sadly a lot of times this kind of thing is self-fulfilling prophesy. we are so insecure thinking there will be infidelity that we force the other into cheating.

sometimes the person is just a conniving cheater.

That is the point- it is dicey- who knows the working of a heart or a mind. How does one stop from falling off the slope? When does one pull the breaks and say - hey I seem be more attached to this person other than my spouse?

It is known to happen and naturally so. Its got nothing to do with insecurities but moving apart due to external factors such as being unable to spend adequate time at home due to late working hours or going to on site etc and once the partner sniffs it out the damage is already done. Its emotional betrayal and doesn't have anything to do with sex.

Emotional affairs do wreck marriages.

And as far as emotional intimacy goes - my best friend is my husband. I tell him everything that happens in my life. That shows open communication. The minute I hold something back from him and tell only a friend I would see that as a problem between us, something that I feel he wouldn't understand and that itself is a lose of communication and can snowball into an avalanche.

So even when we disagree over something we fight or talk it out and try to get to the middle ground. We don't do anything of vital importance without each others knowledge and consent.

Does that mean either one of us begrudge each other our friends? No. Knowing that we are each others first priority makes the relationship that much stronger and we can emotionally be there for our respective friends and family.

dee and ss

interesting article and exchanges

there is something to be said about 'office anchoring'

if it is the withdrawal of emotional and mental connections that would ostensibly send the wrong signals to the other spouse

but otoh as ss said if the first relationship is deeply anchored then it has minimal effect on the office one

a digression:

in a similar case the office 'friend' turned stalker and created problems for the real couple

t, I know one that made headlines;)

Time is probably our most rapidly depleting resource. There just isn't enough of it!!! The phenomenon you mention has so much to do with couples not being able to spend enough of time, relaxed and comfortable just with each other when the pressures of work, kids, family and friends beckon. I think we've also become far more selfish and impatient in what we want and what we're willing to give in a relationship. Instant gratification is the name of the game and the internet and people in close physical promimity fulfil our needs faster than the more difficult (but arguably more fulfiling) committed real-world relationship. Also, one thing that your article veered towards but didn't completely cover was comittment and cheating - what constitutes it and how far can they be stretched? These vary from person to person.

IdeaSmith, commitment and cheating are very vast topics and each marriage has its own coping mechanisms.

What constitutes as cheating is again open to interpretation- for some sexual betrayal is the only form of cheating but emotional affairs are very difficult to pin down as cheating especially by those living it;)

I agree about the emotional betrayal issue. that is why I said one needs to have boundaries and open communication and trust with one's spouse.

I, personally, feel that emotional betrayal is far worse than sexual betrayal.

Deepti:

""And as far as emotional intimacy goes - my best friend is my husband. I tell him everything that happens in my life. That shows open communication. The minute I hold something back from him and tell only a friend I would see that as a problem between us, something that I feel he wouldn't understand and that itself is a lose of communication and can snowball into an avalanche.""

On the mark! Even the smallest snow-ball can derail everything...communication and honesty is the key!

Makes life less complicated;)

I constantly live off of emotional affairs, although I consider myself a decent and moral person. The reason being is that my husband does not really allow me the chance to open up and would like to dictate my thoughts completely if he had the chance.

Yes, it is hazardous and can pose some risk to my marriage, but allows me an outlet.

- Nobody is perfect, nobody can be perfect. Any relationship come with that whole package of imperfections.

- World is full of beauty and bliss that we would want to enjoy it all. Why limit our experiences, our joy, our happiness?

- There is no limit to our needs, desires, dreams and they can expand as far and wide as we allow them to. And why not if one wants to live life to the fullest?

Than how can one person, one relationship be adequate? Are we not setting ourselves up for disappointments and disillusionment by seeking every thing from one person, from one relationship. It reminds me of Krishna's response to Draupadi's bewilderment at having 5 husbands - because she wanted so many things in her husband that only five of them could satisfy. And that is so true - why should we seek source of all our joy and happiness from one person and than torture that person for all his or her short-comings and flaws? We should take our joy and happiness from wherever we can get them, whoever can provide it. We don't do our shopping at one place, we don't eat at same restaurant all the time - so why should we limit ourselves for our emotional or sexual or companionship needs? No matter how deep spouses may have communication and trust in each other, certain thoughts, desires and actions can never be shared. But that is not the root of all martital dissatisfaction - the root is that monogomous marraige is an artificial cultural construct - that humans by nature can never be happy by limited and one-dimensional confines of one relationship, however close it may be - that one person can never fulfill all needs and desires of another human being. Imagine how much we are asking humans to sacrifice for the sake of monogomous relationships and for what? Some of my American friends have multiple boyfriends and girlfriends at the same time and they seem to be very happy, never bitter about shortcomings of their partners - their logic is that if he/she really likes something that his/her partner can not fulfill/provide, he/she would try to hook with another person who can, without ditching or dissing his/her other partners - so everybody is win-win. That is the latest trend among youth in america - NSA(no strings attached) hook-ups, friends with benefits. And it is a natural configuration of human affairs which societies hitherto have tried to reconfigure for some higher purpose. That humans are asked to sacrifice their freedoms and happiness so certain social institutions can be built on such sacrifices. And most people would make any sacrifices if they are convinced the purpose is greater than their personal needs and ego. But we take our social institutions and values so much for granted, never realizing that they rest on so much of sacrifices , and if we are not prepared to make those sacrifices, they can become walls of prison. Pretending to love, pretending to be married, pretending to be faithful can become a tiresome act. Love, trust, committment alone can not pull the monogomous relationship thru - it has to have a higher purpose, it has to create one.

We Indians don't do hookups nor do we sleep around before or after our marriages. Handling one partner is more than enough instead of going in for multiple partners. Thats called - promiscuity.

If you are happy from within one is more than enough.

Learn to be content with your lot Mr Kerty!!

anadiya... wow, I wonder what India you're living in! either you are really sheltered or you're very very naive, or both.

#14

that was amusing, Anadiya :)

Middle class Indians don't. You know any who have multiple sleeping partners? Have any of them told you so? Even swingers in India are very few and for most it is an alien and repulsive concept and they lead their other side in secrecy.

Those who sleep around are not looked favorably in India. There is something called honor that one maintains.


Every culture is different and so are its value systems.

Do you know that re-instating virginity is becoming very popular in Bangalore? Even these girls who have active sex lives before marriage don't want their husbands to know of their past.

That is India for you. I am an Indian and know what I am talking about. I don't go around telling you that you don't know your American culture so don't go telling me that I don't know mine.

@ Anadiya: Actually I do know of a number of people who have had multiple partners. I even know some couples where one spouse or both have had intermarital relationships. These may not be things that society endorses but there is no doubting the fact that they exist.

Your point of revirgination actually emphasizes my point in that human behaviour doesn't change but some of society's attitudes cause acts of this nature. Personally I don't think much of revirgination - it seems to endorse begining a relationship with a lie and that can't be right in any culture.

Having said that, social disapproval especially towards women, in this regard, is so strong that not everyone may have the ability to cope with the consequences of being truthful.

Anadiya is either nose deep in denial and/or is engaging in something called "baiting" whereby factions such as "Western culture", phrases such as "your American culture" versus "our holy culture" are substituted for logic or fact with a view towards inciting petty conflicts in place of a healthy debate. Commentators beware.

Off topic: what does re-instating virginity even mean....considering the hymen can be ruptured by everything from tampons to yoga stretches not to mention an intact hymen isn't really a reliable marker for virginity. Whatta daft and ignorant comment to be making in the name of "Indian culture"!

Dee: You say this: "Some call them symptoms of couples already growing apart but I see them as causes that lead otherwise unwary couples finding themselves unable to bridge the gap due to the duplicity."

I have a different stance. I am starting to believe that the office relationships/ internet intimacies are only instruments that make pre-existing issues within the relationship more apparent. So rather than creating the problems for couples, these issues may be in fact laying the underlying problems bare, making their scrutiny and resolution more urgent for those involved. This duplicity that you refer to I think is merely an instrument that pries at the cracks and separates the pieces fractured by intimacy issues for couples who haven't been able to spend quality time together.

Without going through my personal experiences, I can just quickly add that in most instances, a work buddy or net pal comes in to fill a pre-existing void that we were earlier aware of only subconsciously.

But thats just my take.

Great topic for discussion considering how much our busy timetables seem to be biting off of our personal lives in the current competitive, fast paced world.

anadiya... I live in India, my husband is Indian, my daughter is Indian and my friends are Indian. You cannot pull the wool over the little foreigner's eyes.

If you really believe that women are not having affairs you are seriously deluded. I agree that those who sleep around are not looked at favorably, but that really does not stop it from happening.

and you actually contradicted yourself. if women were not having sex before marriage why would they need their virginity reinstated?

just because society doesn't like it does not mean it doesn't happen. it's like procliaming the purity of brahmins then asking your brahmin friends how many eat meat and drink booze and smoke and then watching like 90 percent of the hands go up.

Apparently you have no idea what goes on in call centers and college hostels. Or even bored housewives, for that matter. And normal every day career woman who have relationships and choose not to get married. I have quite a few friends in their 30's who slept with multiple people before marriage.

I think you probably live in a very sheltered community and have friends who are just like you. there is nothing wrong with that, but you should realize that the world outside does not necessarily mirror your own exactly!

If the so called "true love" can be derailed by something as casual as office chit-chat, then wtf is so great about it? Methinks all this true love is a farce and just a matter of convenience. Much like fair weather friendship.

Ledzius: Office chit-chat? True love aside, some of our colleagues get closest to giving us a sense of self-actualization compared to a spouse who may not fully understand our work related pride. For those of us whose careers and productive outlets define us, the people who get to witness and understand our metamorphosis in the context of these gratifying realms sometimes may end up seeming closer and more intimate than a detached spouse who treats our occupation as just a pay check. Then it becomes more about who really understands your worth, your abilities as an individual and that is not about office chit chat really.

I am starting to wonder if the popular definitions of "true love" need a generous makeover with layers of real world experience and practicality to salvage the utopic romance that we all crave.

With age, somehow mutual respect starts to seem a lot more attractive and dependable than the vague terminology surrounding "love". :)

Ideasmith and small squirrel, society is made up of the majority of people who share similar ways of living and values. Those who lead alternate lifestyles are in minority and should have the courage to continue living their lives as they see fit despite the disapproval of the majority but point is they don't.

I did say such people existed but let us face facts their extended families and even their children are kept in the dark. Why? Would the lady indulging in such orgy promote it to her children? I don't think so.

Or the career woman, ( what has her career got to do with her sexual life?) when put in front of a prospective groom tells his parents that she believes in serial monogamy? That she slept with more than two or three men? Why would she shy away from telling them so?

Do these middle class parents with kids in call centers know that their daughters are sexually active before marriage? Answer is NO. And not all kids in call centers are promiscuous. Again these are gross assumptions like the old ones that used to say that all college going girls were easy. The media says it and naive people believe these lousy page fillers.

Such girls are few in number and they know if truth comes out in their little towns their reputations and those of their parents would be ruined.

So who is perpectuating the double living? Either have the guts to go against the flow totally otherwise don't jump into the water at all. Because a life based on lies always comes back to haunt and that is why they want to get that hymen back. They want to deny their past.

They want to be back in the fold that demands that we treat our bodies as sacred temples not like revolving doors. So why go through the aggravation in the first place if you can't carry the fight on till the end?

Yes, as Indian women we have to give that a thought. You think the neighbourhood does not know about the sluttish housewife? Everyone does except the husband and they all boycott the family and laugh at the man. Such women are very few and do not represent Indian women who know whats at stake and they generally are happy with their little world.


Mrs Squirrel, I take offense that you consider my life to be sheltered or that of my friends. Those are arrogant assumptions. I have seen these poor women suffer the consequences when things come out in the open and it is an ugly sight.

Your husband and child may be Indians but you are not an Indian nor are you chained by the Indian society's intricacies. You will always be a foreigner looking in. People will always give you the exception which they won't to an Indian. That how the Indian society is.


Your upwardly mobile and few liberal friends do not represent the majority of Indian mindset and let me tell you none of them would have the courage to talk about this bluntly in their community without bringing pain to their parents and other members of their family or they may have already been written off.

I don't see nothing wrong with treating ones body with respect and not sleeping with every Tom, Dick or Harry that momentarily catches ones fancy.

This is the way the majority of Indian middle class thinks, others are exceptions to the rule and are foolish to cave in to their temporary needs knowing full well about the consequences.

Aditi - "For those of us whose careers and productive outlets define us, the people who get to witness and understand our metamorphosis in the context of these gratifying realms sometimes may end up seeming closer and more intimate than a detached spouse who treats our occupation as just a pay check. Then it becomes more about who really understands your worth, your abilities as an individual and that is not about office chit chat really."

This is self serving, whichever way you look at it.

Does this hold true of only members of the opposite sex? If a man were to appreciate a male colleague's contributions, would that be considered emotional cheating? I don't think even the author of this post implies that. It is all about feelings for a member of the opposite sex and is no longer about just "understanding your worth", although that might at first offer the most obvious alibi.

Anadiya, care to write for DC?

@ Anindya: Congratulations on getting a personal invitation to be a DesiCritic! :-) I for one, would really like to hear your views on other issues as well.

Okay, I agree with you that blanket assumptions cannot and should not be made. However, I still hold that there is a fair bit of sexual activity happening with or without marriage and with multiple partners. This is based on people I know - friends, colleagues, classmates.

At one point of time I've also stayed in a flat overlooking a little settlement housing washermen, drivers and maid servants. The relevance of this is that I've often been witness to fights and loud dramas. Some of the causes - an 'affair' being discovered by parents, illicit relationships, elopments, ex-lovers turning up to fight with current paramours - I kid you not. While it was initially shocking, I realised that human behaviour doesn't change by social or economical strata. The thing about a place like Mumbai is that its crowded spaces push everybody's lives into your face and yours into everyone else's. I live with some shattered illusions - one of them that Indians are conservative and restrained in their sexuality.

@ Anadiya: Congratulations on getting a personal invitation to be a DesiCritic! :-) I for one, would really like to hear your views on other issues as well.

Okay, I agree with you that blanket assumptions cannot and should not be made. However, I still hold that there is a fair bit of sexual activity happening with or without marriage and with multiple partners. This is based on people I know - friends, colleagues, classmates.

At one point of time I've also stayed in a flat overlooking a little settlement housing washermen, drivers and maid servants. The relevance of this is that I've often been witness to fights and loud dramas. Some of the causes - an 'affair' being discovered by parents, illicit relationships, elopments, ex-lovers turning up to fight with current paramours - I kid you not. While it was initially shocking, I realised that human behaviour doesn't change by social or economical strata. The thing about a place like Mumbai is that its crowded spaces push everybody's lives into your face and yours into everyone else's. I live with some shattered illusions - one of them that Indians are conservative and restrained in their sexuality.

I take serious umbrage to the fact that you believe that any woman who has had multiple partners is a slut and does not treat her body as a temple. A woman can have only 2 partners in her life and be a slut, or could have 20 and be someone who treats herself and others with the utmost respect. it is all in how the woman carries herself and conducts the relationships. it is ridiculous and backwards for you to assume that any woman who is doing these things are whores.

you also make ridiculous assumptions about my friends, who they are, what they do or do not do for a living because you are operating only on stereotypes of how foreigners are.

Commenting on Desicritics is by itself very addictive I spent most of my time here today instead of working, blogging here would make me utterly useless.

As far as this argument I do maintain that such people are more the exception than the rule for most Indians. Even amongst the lower communities any one having multiple partners be it a man or woman is not looked upon favorably. A lot of gossip and snickering happens about these people.

Its a big scandal that everyone wants to be in on. They are nice to the people concerned but rarely are they considered to be the upstanding members of the community they belong to. There are degrees of what is accepted by society but sex orgies, swinger parties and affairs are not deemed as genteel behavior by the majority and they know it hence the secrecy.

What you don't get is that your umbrage is of little consequence in India. Any woman with multiple sex partners who lives it blatantly is not accepted in this side of the world- 2 they can still come round to , 20? they would ask her to take a HIV test before they let her set foot over their threshold which in any case would be never. That is the rude reality that you seem to have trouble accepting.

Some things are acceptable in Indian society and some arent. This happens to be one of them. And no I don't care how foreigners are or what you are like I am telling you how Indian society operates and you despite your years of living here do not understand its conservatism.

but clearly, anadiya, you do not realize that you alone are not the arbiter of this singular so-called Indian society, which I argue simply does not exist.

this whole business of telling me I simply cannot understand and being nasty to me because I have a different view then being ugly based on nationality is unacceptable. you need to wise up. you would not take such shit if you were in the US commenting on US culture. you would call me a racist. so right back atcha sweetie. one does not have to be born and raised in india to understand it. you need to get over yourself.

furthermore you seem not to address the desis who disagree with you, you just choose to get nasty with me. what's that about? got some axe to grind?

listen, lady, don't tell me what I do and do not understand. my husband's whole family is as conservative as it gets in this country. just because I disagree with you does not mean you get to be judgmental and play the race card.

furthermore you need to learn how to read. you said that women here do not have affairs blah blah blah then had to backpedal like crazy to amend that to say that they do but it is not accepted.
I never disagreed that it was not accepted, I said your assertion that women here do not have multiple sexual partners was absurd and outdated.

you got caught and then tried to create a distraction by using race/ethnicity and that is not only a shitty debate tactic, it is just plain rude. and I am not the only one who thinks so. pls see aditi's comment above.

SS, is it fair to call this the "Parting catfight"?

smallsquirrel,

you are really very judgemental and and full of American self- righteousness, even for me. Through you, I can see why I have been faced with some of the stereotypes Caucasian women have in this culture. I am also a 'white wife' married to a desi and have undergone all the transformations that you would think possible. There are thoughts and past deeds that come up randomly and I cannot deny my American liberalization up-bringing altogether, but I still humble myself in the face of what I see as more pure and dignified women.

I agree with Anadiya here. Although her view seems a little simplistic, why do we have to air out all our dirty laundry on other cultures? Sure, there are crimes against women in India that are heinous, but at least somewhere in the world there should be women who do not think having multiple sexual partners equates freedom, even if their men are less than perfect sometimes. I for one, think most Indian and Pakistani women are superior to me and I wish I was born in one of these cultures. I would not have these complexities, or liberalized thoughts that actually drag me down.

Anyway, if you have a humble bone in your body, please don't attack me, cause I won't respond anyway. Intelligent people realize when others won't change and I doubt any of the above people will because of your naive statements.

Listen lady, from beginning to end you are the one who got personal. You brought up my upbringing and that of my friends. Your life and your friends. I didn't ask you to. I did not even comment about what foreigners are like in India or how they behave, I spoke about Indian behavior.


Aditi and you have tried to make it a East verses West argument whereas all I said that we Indians dont do what Kerty said we should and it is not part of our culture. I have shown how the conservative Indian world is but you kept getting personal more and more.


I have not said any racist comments nor attacked any ethnic group nor made any distractions.

My arguments have been consistent from start till the end. I find it appalling that you accuse me of racism where I have not abused you nor your origins but you have been condescending and judgmental all the way through. I merely pointed that we don't judge foreigners with the same yardstick which we have for our own. And you are not an Indian are you? Where is the racism? It is the hard cold facts that I have presented.


It is you who has been unable to reply. If you are allowed to hold your opinion about multiple sex partners why am I not allowed to believe otherwise? you were the one who called them whores not me or are you going to lay that vulgarity on my doorstep as well?

In my second paragraph I said there are exceptions to the rule but they are few where have I gone back on my words? The majority of Indians do not throw their panties down for temporary lust nor do they indulge in your 20 affairs.

All the way I have politely rebutted about Indian society but you have made it a low class personal skirmish and I have no time for your kind of paranoia.

What I require from you is an APOLOGY for calling me racist but that too I think you will never fully comprehend due to your self absorbed high handed and know it all attitude.

Ledius, this is one cat fight I have no time for.

miss anona.... that is too funny dear, you have gone the other way and are trying to be something you are not. and will never be. I have lots of humble bones, but you level a personal attack against me then tell me I am not free to respond? yikes.

listen. all I said is that what anadiya said was not accurate. and it is not accurate. the issue is not whether or not it is alright to be promiscuous, or even if having multiple partners is alright. the issue is that she said that indian women don't have multiple partners, which is a gross generalization and very inaccurate. if the issue at hand had been "does indian society find women who have multiple partners acceptable" my answers would have been far different.

you are probably facing issues because from what I can tell you have low self esteem. it is one thing to admire another culture. I too see many many things in the indian culture to emulate and honor. it is also another thing to recognize the bad points and issues from the culture you come from. it is another thing to try to be something you are not.

anadiya your entire argument revolved around "I am an Indian and I know about India better than you so you be quiet and don't contradict me."

that's funny!

there will be no apology from me. you did attack me and you did play the race card. if you don't like being called racist then don't act like you are!

This is precious. From beginning to end you are the one who got personal. You brought up my upbringing and that of my friends. Your life and your friends. I didn't ask you to. I did not even comment about what foreigners are like in India or how they behave, I spoke about Indian behavior towards non Indians as far as cultural behavior and values is concerned.


Aditi and you have tried to make it a East verses West argument whereas all I said that we Indians dont do what Kerty said we should and it is not part of our culture. I have shown how the conservative Indian world is but you kept getting personal more and more.


I have not said any racist comments nor attacked any ethnic group nor made any distractions.

My arguments have been consistent from start till the end. I find it appalling that you accuse me of racism where I have not abused you nor your origins but you have been condescending and judgmental about my upbringing and opinions all the way through.

You are not an Indian are you? I can't suddenly get an American ancestry or heritage, I am an Indian and you are an American. Where is the racism? You are a foreigner
living on Indian soil and the rules are not the same for you. LIVE WITH IT!


It is you who has been unable to reply. If you are allowed to hold your opinion about multiple sex partners why am I not allowed to believe otherwise? you were the one who called them whores not me or are you going to lay that vulgarity on my doorstep as well?

In my second comment I said there are exceptions to the rule but they are few. Where have I gone back on my words? The majority of Indians do not throw their panties down for temporary lust nor do they indulge in your some 20 affairs.

All the way I have politely rebutted about Indian society but you have made it a low class personal skirmish.

What I require from you is an APOLOGY for calling me racist but that too I think you will never fully comprehend given your self absorbed high handed and know it all attitude. It is a very low way to trying to up an argument that you had lacked any kind of viable knowledge of to begin with.

And I have tired of you already so F#$% the apology. From you I expect nothing nor will you get any reply from me. It is well below my dignity to respond to you after the aspersions you made on me.

Ms Anona, [RDITED]

It isn't low self esteem but loneliness and I hope it is not presumptuous on my part to suggest some couple therapy if open communication is difficult?

Maybe talk to one of the senior ladies in your faith? Some times community help us through.

Sometimes our men can be difficult, many have been taught to be macho and unemotional but they do love deeply.

It must be hard to be in your position and I hope you and your husband would find ways to be mentally there for each other.

So, do y'all think the Internet is addictive and breaks relationships? I've made more friends online, although I'm fortunate that we both have an active online presence, so for couples where only one person is 'into' the Net, I'm sure it can create resentment/irritation.

One of the easiest mistake one can make about India is to over analyse, over generalize. For it is too diverse, stratified, fossilized to be amenable to any definitive conclusions on any matter. For every rule, for every obvious observation, one can find zillion exceptions. Majority of India does not live in cosmopolitan areas, or as homogenized - so one can not jump to conclusions based on cosmopolitan experience or observations. Hardly 3% Indians speak english, and they have created a caste of their own, with their own set of values and culture - one can't judge zillion other castes based on observations one can find among english-speaking class. Same goes for urbane elites and professionals. They represent tiny layer of society. In fact, whole society is like a layers of cabbage, layered vertically, horizontally and every conceivable way, and no one layer is really that significant in overall scheme of things. That is why everything one can say about India can be true and false at the same time. It is a land of bewildering contrasts and contradictions - you will find here whatever you are looking for, and in no small measure. If you are looking for gutters and underbellies, you will find them plenty. If you think Indians are racists, abusive, meanest people on earth, you will find plenty of that to validate your conclusions. If you think India is most spiritual, moral, cultural, civilizational, conservative and people are steeped in character and values, you will find that India too. If you think India is most liberal, sexist, uncultured, immoral, poor, corrupt or what have you, that India exists too. It all depends on what one is looking for in India. Its bewildering landscape can be very unsettling for outsiders and passerbys. Some will get enriched and enlightened in the process, for India confronts their traditional world view, their well-groomed outlook, conditioned mindset, homogenized realities. While some will get so disillusioned and disoriented by the observations, they would have nothing positive to say about India and will remain most bitter critics of India for lifetime. Mohuls and british came to India, lived in India for centuries, ruled India, but they never fully understood the spirit of India, and they never really ruled hearts and minds of India. All they did was to leave their own castes behind, now fossilized in mosaic of India. In India, we agree never to agree.

dee:

that icon at the end of your post (#6)...wonder if we were talking about the SAME person?

;)

khair here is something from the T Star front page today!

`Mein tumarhi jaan nikal dungi.'

"I never meant to harm anyone," says a tearful Vir, 40. "My Canadian dream is shattered. I just want to go back to India."

The charge follows an incident on Sept. 30, when Vir sent a packet of mix for making gulab jamun, an Indian sweet, to McGuinty to express her "love and affection," dropping it off to staff member Monica Masciantonio.

The same night, she emailed McGuinty, asking whether Masciantonio had given him the mix.

"I said, `If she didn't give it to you, I'll kill her.' It's just slang," Vir said. "I use this term all the time with my husband and my kids. In Hindi, it's,`Mein tumarhi jaan nikal dungi.'

Anadiya,

Thank you for the warm comment! Yes, I am lonely in my marriage although I have tremendous support in the areas that count at the same time. One of the reasons for my feelings of isolation, is because it has been hard for me to make female Muslim or Indian friends, on the surface I have no friends. The women look at me in speculation and we don't seem to have much in common on the surface. I know they are good and sometimes I blame myself for not being up to their standard. Language is another issue, of course. The men just seem much more open and trustworthy, at least online it seems safe. My friends make life much less mundane and through them I have started writing (fiction) to get all these conflicting emotions out and in a place where it doesn't bother my marriage.

Anyway, I am not looking for any pity or anything and yeh, sure, I have low self-esteem. If I had more esteem I would have never had any affairs before marriage or other self-damaging things I have done just for thrills. With more self-esteem I could have resisted the barrage of Western influences that have actually weakened me.

Anyway, I just originally posted under this heading because I think it is possible for married people to have online relations without comprimising their integrity although I would certainly be in trouble if my hubby knew, so I don't really reccommend it.

Malika

aaaaaaaaah, I see, you use @*#&)@#)& in your cussing so that makes you moral and HOLY is it?

BWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHHAHHA.

you deal with it. seems you have some anger management issues as well as some stereotypes about americans that you need to clear up.

your entire argument has been "I know you are but what am I?" and you are lying when you say your argument has been consistent. what is consistent in saying that indian women do not have multiple sex partners then saying that some seek surgery surgery to correct their overused vaginas?

you also have no clue what it means to be racist, apparently because none of the gross generalizations you have applied to me seem to register on your radar screen. apparently you feel that only indians can be slighted when anyone simply implies that indian women are not pure as the driven snow.

it is actually comical. you should think about being a stand up comedian.

ss

pray, who is the recipient of #44?

#43:

since this is public space may i join?

you have again hinted that your husband is unawares of some facts about you...i can understand the pressures...but online sorting out is the last thing you should be indulging in

enough said!

temporal,

no one here asked to join, obviously........lol.

I understand what you are saying, but it just seems unfair to me. My husband has all sorts of friends that he can talk with when he needs them. I have none to share my intimate details, neither family or friends. I have changed every aspect of my life for my husband and he is quite harsh on my former self.

Again, I will take criticisms, but I realized about a year ago that if I don't find an outlet for my wayward thoughts, I might get into some real trouble. In that case, it is better you just lock me in some cage and never allow me to see the light of day.

Anyway, the Internet is a lifesaver for me. I don't really know anyone like me that has gone through such a dramatic mental transformation.

Malika

Ms. Anona, you're most welcome to share, and we'll support, however we can.

temp... it's for anadiya

a/m:

(ok ... won't be judgmental:))

as long as one is extra diligent:)

read #5, #19 (last part), and #22 again

there is a need for personal space in all relationships

this space can bond the couple or pry them further apart...the degree of mutual trust and respect between them determines the outcome

if the couple's relationship is well grounded then the former will occur, if small cracks are appearing than such an "emotionl offline offshoring" can wedge them further apart

Anandiya:

""That is India for you. I am an Indian and know what I am talking about. I don't go around telling you that you don't know your American culture so don't go telling me that I don't know mine.""

This dude (not dudette) is hilarious!! The maha-thekedaar of all the thekedaars (contractors) of Indians and Indian culture! Probably Kerty's boss?

Aaman, thank you for your response. I hope I am not being wildly inappropriate by posting here, but may I become a desicritic? I emailed a week ago with no response yet. I really wanted to post something about my experience working with the various Indian non-profits and community organizations in Chicago. In my opinion, they are incredibly insular and disenfranchised with the community-at-large and do not allow outside diversity to threaten their power structure, thus limiting what a community can actually achieve in organizing. In taking on the responsibility of being a desicritic, I promise to maintain personal prestige and be sensitive to cultural identities and differences.

malika... I am going to tread very lightly here because I realize you are in a very difficult situation.

I think that there is a need for all people to be respectful in relationships. Since you said you have changed everything to be with your husband, he should hopefully respect those sacrifices and move forward. No one is without a past. It does no good to dwell on those things.

You cannot exist in exile. You do need to have friends and you do need to have people that you can be yourself around. You should be able to be yourself, Malika.

Was your name Malika before? I assume that you changed it when you converted to Islam. That must be strange for you. I applaud your loyalty to your husband, and the sacrifices you have made. But you should not have to be ashamed of yourself. When you say things like "I blame myself for not being up to their standards" I wonder what that means.

It makes me worried for you.

Anandiya:

""Those who lead alternate lifestyles are in minority and should have the courage to continue living their lives""

Dude you are the one living an alternative lifestyle...

Anadiya:

""I don't see nothing wrong with treating ones body with respect and not sleeping with every Tom, Dick or Harry that momentarily catches ones fancy""

Definitely not with Dick...

Temporal, I will try not to be long-winded (a tough one!)

1. D's initial point makes eminent commonsense: if you are not looking to rock your marriage/relationship, the creation of an intimate zone with another, even a very tiny one, tends to expand over time. Time and time again, it leads to "trouble" (sometimes liberation from a bad relationship/experience, that you initially misrecognized as a good one)

2. Aditi: totally agree with you. Sometimes when spouses/partners are working in quite different fields, it really is very rewarding to bond up with work-mates. No question about it. Better this, than boring one's already bored spouse about one's work. Sometimes this works best for both, because a no-go boundary is created (ie. let's not talk about each other's work as it bores both of us to death). However, the slippery slope of intimacy with workmates is created, and it may not necessarily be a negative development)

3. The key as many have pointed out, is a degree of trust and security. Once that is present, people can even enjoy swinging or "polyamory", be it emotional or physical, without any "problems". Adults can do whatever they want and no state, so-called cultural police or peer pressure has any right to stop them, as long as they are not impinging on others' rights as individual. Note, no crap about such and such being "not good for society in the long run"...in the long run we are all dead.

4. There is of course never any guarantee of no problems in life (0+0=0), otherwise it wouldn't be life. But problems can never be solely attributable to one set of factors. Most folks in a relationship work at re-aligning slightly misaligned zones, as we rush thru life, dodging the crap that's dished out at us (by commonsense for instance). Sometimes things really go awry, and it's better to call it quits than tilt at windmills of "my pure culture" vs. some image of a so-called "impure Western culture".

5. Regardless of all the points above, Anadiya (dudette, not dude) is mistaken to assume that only "white" people can be "racist". The exchange above with SS, demonstrates this. Easiest way out to silence someone who apparently does not belong to your "race" (no such thing objectively, just social constructs) is to accuse them of racism. Most "whites" will back off, the die-hard racists will take it as a compliment and double their attacks. The biggest under the blow of them all!

Temporal, not unexpectedly, my verbal diahhorea was unstoppable...sorry!

Andiya:

""The majority of Indians do not throw their panties down for temporary lust nor do they indulge in your some 20 affairs."'

Hilarious! How about some semi-temporary lust? PEW survey anyone?

Digression: where are Man Singh, Gill, Kela etc?

Aaman/Temporal, editors: what are the "rules" re: satire of what the above-mentioned might have to say on this topic? Strictly off limits?

Andiya:

""Commenting on Desicritics is by itself very addictive I spent most of my time here today instead of working, blogging here would make me utterly useless.""

Hey, ironically, after my repeated posts, i have never agreed with anyone so much before! Except the last part, because by all counts now, I am an utterly useless person. Hold on: why is addiction to DC a sign of utter uselessness??

Kerty:

""Mohuls and british came to India, lived in India for centuries, ruled India, but they never fully understood the spirit of India""

Could be because a lot of the Mughals actually consumed the "spirits" of India? Religious strictures against the consumption of alcohol notwithstanding?

Ms. Anona:

"Anyway, I am not looking for any pity or anything and yeh, sure, I have low self-esteem. If I had more esteem I would have never had any affairs before marriage or other self-damaging things I have done just for thrills. With more self-esteem I could have resisted the barrage of Western influences that have actually weakened me."

Trust me, I do not write this out of any "pity" or self-righteousness but more out of genuine human empathy. You seem to be in a very complex situation...sincerely hope you will find some way to stop blaming yourself...

cs #55:

you went in hexa-directions and nearly lost me:)

so i have to bring in the "bottom-line" (copyright t)

the bottom line is the "state" of original relationship

if it is firmly anchored, then "emotionl on/off-line offshoring" can enhance it.

otoh, if the original "state" shows cracks...the vicarious emotional support sought can be a dangerously slippery slope

Temporal,

Yep! Absolutely! Caveat: Except sometimes we uintentionally miscrecognize the "state of the union" as it were! Cracks that were not visible prior, appear to be visible post facto!

(the hexa-directions! yes, as usual I was dispensing commonsense in hazaar directions...it's in my nature and my nick!)

24 Ledzius:
You said:

"This is self serving, whichever way you look at it.Does this hold true of only members of the opposite sex? If a man were to appreciate a male colleague's contributions, would that be considered emotional cheating?..."

Of course it is self-serving. Most romances are self-serving. Contrary to popular opinion, I think that neglecting this "self" is what eats at the core of a relationship.

Just like bringing flowers, candy and other such wooing paraphernalia, the office buddy brings his understanding and appreciation of our work. Just as in a same sex situation the wooing wouldn't work (unless in case of homosexuality), this form of wooing wouldn't work between the same sexes.

My point wasn't that this interaction is completely innocent. No. It is in fact a means by which a man or woman seek from a colleague what they could not get from their spouse.

I have seen so many cases where a man chose a "homely" girl who can manage the homeefront to balance out his ambitious career and somewhere along the line ended up frustrated coz his spouse did not understand/ appreciate his aspirations or achievements. It is a pretty serious loneliness to suffer from where the career that brings you so much social status and self-esteem is not appreciated by your life-partner.

I am not saying that this is the only reason for office relationships to blossom. I am saying this may be the root of the romance.

You bring up the whole issue of "opposite sex" but think about it this way: Would a heterosexual man be all happier if another man checked out his biceps or complimented his smile, his clothes etc. rather than a woman? Would a heterosexual woman be turned on if another woman checked her out? Our achievements at work are a similar asset and our egoes are massaged better if it is a person of the opposite sex eyeing these feathers in our cap with interest.

Very simply, it is a wooing mechanism.

Temporal,

Don't sigh now, but #55 wasn't specifically directed at you :) (As the editor, I used you as an alibi for my kaley kartoot...)

Aditi, your detailed explanation only helps reinforce my view that I had initially expressed in #21.

Also I don't think men feel the need to be appreciated career-wise as much as women do. If a man has an affair with an office co-worker, it is most likely NOT for emotional reasons, and he may choose to date someone who is as clueless as the wife as far as work is concerned, like the office secretary. I think men may get physically bored with their wives (especially when the wife puts on weight), and an attractive secretary would surely tempt him. Although she might get charmed by his successful career and make herself more receptive because of the same, he only see this as a means to an end. He is not looking for recognition from her, they only expect her to give him a good time.

Men have the ability to compartmentalise relationships, women unfortunately don't, they get emotionally attached as well, and cause their own marriages to fall apart. I have myself seen many instances of this happen around me.

Sorry about mixing up the singular and plural pronouns above, but I hope the message is clear.

Ledzius: Seems like "Pati Patni Or Woh" influences you more than any real life scenarios. I am not sure about the kind of men you have had your interactions with. The "bimbo secretary" versus the "over weight wife" is only but a sorry cliche. I guess it is a difference in our circumstances, perception...or merely the examples we choose to draw our conclusions from.

I am almost regretful of having spent my elaborate response over your stereotypical ideas.

There were a few of you that wrote a somewhat empathetic response to my comments here, so I wrote a short story you guys might like:

http://storywrite.com/story/show/147598 or click on URL.

I would have put it under a new posting entirely, but I guess I'm not whitty, cool, desi enough, or whatever it takes for the socialized powers that be to deam me worthy. Oh well!

Malika

a/m:

i read that piece

jay or dee or the other s/s writers can tell you more about writing short stories

i can only indulge in some generalities

* don't tell - just show
* while brevity is the with of soul - the s/s must focus
* avoid the easiest way - the first person narration
* read a couple of anthologies of s/s. if you have already read them then read again and make notes - what narration device the author employed, the format, the language and narration mode, and more

and try to learn the best trick of trade: find out how the writer holds the reader's interest

without gripping that interest the writer flounders

Anona

I also live in chicago, actually schaumburg to be precise. I own an Indian restuarant/sports bar in schaumburg called Dosti. Very famous joint. Ask for me when you happen to visit it.

Kerty, LOL....

Cool, myabe i've heard the name, not sure. Is there a way to chat with people personally on this site? I mean, I'm not the type that just goes randomly to some sports bar. I've seen some interesting characters around here, but can't find where anyone has left behind their email, only blogs. Or, am I trying to break some rule again, dam me!

thanks of your interest.

Here's where to find me.

[EDITED]

??? What gives?

Anona..

It is not a typical American sports bar. Its more like an upscale Indian family restaurant with a flare for London style Pub, with lots of Bollywood music, cricket/sports and other Indian programming. The crowd is usually mixture of families, couples and young professionals. Because we serve only Halal meat, many moslems patronize it. We have tried to create youth oriented place where they can socialize safely and Indian youth get an alternative to downtown bars and disco scene. So far, it seems to attract lots of couples and families and H1 professionals. If you haven't lived in chicago lately, you might not have heard about it as we opened it in March of last year.

Commonsense, haha. sorry, I 'm hijacking your favorite site and using this particular column as my personal space until they allow me to be a desicritic and I can post my own blog here. For god sake, I do have my master's, I have valid things to say, but I can have a little fun too, can't I? I don't understand the point of leaving msgs on this site without giving a way to contact me, either.

As far as this Kerty fellow, I'm as clueless as you. Probably wants a chance to take advantage of what he sees as a damsel in distress. Haha.

a/m:

http://desicritics.org/2006/01/25/205846.php

Ok, Kerty, maybe I'll check it out. The name seems somewhat easy to remember, don't know what it means though. I live near Devon, so I don't go to Schaumburg too much, but we have some friends there, so I can suggest it next time. Altough I doubt when I come, I'll be able to ask for you. How would that conversation go?

Me: 'hey, i'm that white chic who was posting on desicritic!'.

I don't think so.

So, ur married? Kids? I've got one. I'm super bored, can you tell. Always looking for more friends. Unemployed, starting job near O'hare next week.

Malika

temporal, i sent them an email over a week ago with no response. Guess I'm not 'sinister' enough.

Anona

You mentioned about your social isolation within Indian community. Indian community won't come to you on its own. You have to go where Indian community is, where they socialize. Reason I mentioned Dosti. You and your family can meet other Indian couples and families there, possibly make new friends.

ok.

Your lunch menu seems economical

Anona:

""As far as this Kerty fellow, I'm as clueless as you.""

Au contraire. I'm quite I can figure out Kerty after many exchanges with him and after reading his posts. Just that I did not expect him to advertize his private business on DC...so maybe I am indeed clueless about him!

Anona:

""As far as this Kerty fellow, I'm as clueless as you.""

Au contraire. I'm quite I can figure out Kerty after many exchanges with him and after reading his posts. Just that I did not expect him to advertize his private business on DC...

Kerty:

""We have tried to create youth oriented place where they can socialize safely and Indian youth get an alternative to downtown bars and disco scene."'

"socialize safely"!! Such that their Dharma remains intact so they can, in the future defend the true so-called "spirit" of India! Before they do so, greenbacks grow wings and fly towards me! Who said idealism, money-making and mating don't mix?? LOL!!

Anona..

Devon is a main hub of Indian, moslem and Pakistani communities in Chicago. Just a walk down the Devon street can encounter tons of Indians of all backgrounds. I am surprised that you still feel socially isolated on Devon. Being a white in Indian neighborhood, you are likely to be treated as non-Indian and ignored unless you reach out to them. Approach that will succeed is to strike acquaitence at family-to-family level and than take it to spouse-to-spouse level and other female members of that family's circle - that way, your relationship with your new friends will gain trust and confidence of your husband and his family. If you try to seek friends independently and strictly at gender level, chances are your hubby, who knows your past and dislikes it, might not approve of them or look at them with distrust.

However, after reading your story at Mystory and re-reading some of the posts here, I have a sneaky feeling you are playing a ball here. But for now, I am giving you benefit of doubt.

Kerty wrote:(while selling his business):

""Because we serve only Halal meat, many moslems patronize it.""

And a few weeks earlier on another thread:

""Millions of non-moslems have fallen victim through out history - millions of Hindus during creation of Pure land of Pakistan, and again during independence of BD, and again in Kashmir, and yet another bloody Islamic partition of India is staring in the face of India, give or take few decades. They are all failures of ideologies and approaches you seem to tout that have falsely posed to have a lofty vision that can moderate and reconcile Islam within India - but in reality, they have done just the opposite - condone and appease most virulent form of Islam and ideologically profit from confrontation that Islam creates within India. That sounds like snake-oil salesman taking people to be fools. No more. Islam unfortunately understands only one language - language of superior force, shock and owe. And that is the language it will receive in India if its engineers refuse to fix its bugs.""

How does one square this circle?? Greenbacks, or Abu Daulat (as temporal calls them). Do the "Moslem" patrons know about what the owner of this joint thinks of them??

Kerty Sahab gets curioser and curioser. Not that he was not the object of my curiosity to begin with!! So Kerty Sahab, you still plan to import "Dharma" from the suburbs (Shaumburg?? forget the name) of Chicago into India, while leading others who you believe to be damsels in distress down the garden-path to your Dosti pub?? Excellent plan you have there!!! Now if only if others were as stupid as you take them to be...no, please spare us your prosaic dissertation on the true "spirit" of India...

tch tch cs:(

why are you mixing his business with .....er......pleasure or ideological bent?

Kerty,

Playing a ball here? Hmmm, not sure what that means. I am completely serious in everything I've written. My indian friends who know me most would say that they like me for having ethics apart from the American norm, but like me for being impulsive at the same time, something like that.

But, I do thank you for reading my story. I have a bunch more if you click on URL you can scroll down and view all stories.

commonsense, not really sure what you meant there either, but I sense you are making funny of socializing young Indians. They're a pretty easy target. Actually, it's not really my scene.

Ms. Anona, your id will be created soon, I've removed your addresses above for privacy reasons

Ms. Anona:

""commonsense, not really sure what you meant there either, but I sense you are making funny of socializing young Indians. They're a pretty easy target. Actually, it's not really my scene""

Not at all! Young or old indians can do whatever they like since I am not their baby-sitters. Kerty is the self-appointed baby-sitter of something called "Indian culture" and its chastity, purity etc. etc. and defending it from Western, "alien" corruption. However he does it from Chicago...remote-control nationalism...

CS..

Try reading interactive comments in the context of exchanges within relevant threads.

Anona..

Now that you are a desi critic, you can present your concerns and views here and I look forward to comment on them.

Temporal, what to do? Committed to injecting commonsense where it should exist but does not.....it's all in my nick!

Kerty:

""CS..

Try reading interactive comments in the context of exchanges within relevant threads""

Not for want of trying. Old dogs like me need longer to learn new tricks. However, am I to assume that you are different persona on different threads??

Ms. Anona:

""As far as this Kerty fellow, I'm as clueless as you. Probably wants a chance to take advantage of what he sees as a damsel in distress. Haha."'

Maybe..but seriously, who cares as long as two adults know that they are in for?

CS#92

Different threads deal with different issues, therefore involve arguments relevant to those issues and points raised within those threads. Use the common sense, not just wear on your sleeve. You can be damn good in a debate and someone I would love to debate here on major issues, but you seem to go on silly streaks at regular intervals that makes is hard for me to engage in meaningful exchanges with you. I got to put you on my kill file for now until I see return of vintage cs with common sense sans drama.

Thank you Aaman.

Kerty,

I will be the last one to deny my silly streak. Point taken, because I know you are right. Let's talk about other issues, when it's time :)

kerty,

in fact as most people here know by now, i have more than a streak of "silliness" (I prefer to think of it as non-lethal, non-malicious impishness)....