Narendra Modi and Adolf Hitler

You've got no idea what you're talking about. You don't live in Gujarat, have no first hand experience and just wank in your armchair. The reason why you can get away with far-fetched intellectual speculation is because the stakes for you are so low. Your basis for equating Modi and Hitler is purely based on what you've read in the media. You have no idea what Gujarat is about.

Sujai,

Hindu nationalism is the proper concern of Indians, not Jews living in the mountains of Israel. So, I withhold comment on what you say here. At least, so long as you leave us out the argument....

However, you do deserve praise for having taken a comment to another article and turned it into an article for the readership.

From my understanding of history, the reasons cited by you for rise of the Third Reich are correct. Germans were humiliated after World War I. The terms of peace after the war set by France and England made Germans seethe with anger. They wanted vengeance. Hitler exploited those conditions and rose to power. No matter what anybody says, one fact is certain - Germany was in dire straits after the WWI and the Weimar Republic was weak. The fault of the Germans was that they gambled on the wrong person and party to lead them out of misery and paid a heavy price later on.

Do you realize that you have trivialized Jewish holocaust by your comparison of Modi and Hitler? Have you ever stopped to ponder whether the reasons behind Modi's rise and survival as cited by various Hindutvavdis are valid - various anachronisms of militant Islam w.r.t. to the existence of a modern nation state? Nothing exists in vacuum.

Modern nation state as a construct of the western civilization is a reality in today's world. You might not like it but it is here to stay for at least another few hundred years. People have accepted the idea of nation states so much that they find it natural to identify themselves by their nationality rather than anything else. How has Islam responded to this construct? That is the 800 lb. Gorilla in the room that nobody wants to address. Until you address this you will keep cursing in the darkness but change nothing.

With the victory of Modi, Hindus and Muslims of India have come to a crossroad where both the communities have to figure out how to address each other's legitimate and illegitimate concerns within the framework of a modern nation state. Unlike you, I believe, even militant Muslims have a responsibility to uphold the basic tenets of "Indian version" of secularism as enshrined in our constitution. Putting the onus of upholding values of secularism on the shoulders of Hindus because they are in majority will not work any more. Introspection and positive action is the need of the hour not rabble rousing.

Regards,

P.S. F**k Nehru! That guy was a curse on India.

It's funny that we get ads for investing in German property on this site. I wonder which advertisers think its appropriate:)

Hinduism is religion of tolerance and peace, there was no mass massacare of chr***n in Germany, for which Hitler has to take any action or reaction against j**s. But in Gujarat what ever has happened was result of Hindu massacare occured in Godhra. It was obvious to have riots after that in those condition. Besides after 2002 what ever progress Gujarat is going through is combined effort of Hindu and Muslim, I would say Gujratis. Please stop all this b*ll S**t in media to create more difference in Gujarat and let it come to peace.
Thanks

Anindo:

Some societies have spent time to learn history so that it would not be repeated. Some other societies have tried to ignore history only to realize that they have repeated the tragedy once again.

After WWII, most Western societies and even Japan to a certain extent have taught their future generations the evils that came about in their own countries. Institutions were created, mindset was instilled, and opinions came about, to ensure that such tragedies are not repeated.

Do you realize that you have trivialized Jewish holocaust by your comparison of Modi and Hitler?

I do not think so. Comparing Modi to Hitler does not trivialize either Hitler or Modi. It does not trivialize The Genocide or post-Godhra killings.

Many a times, it makes sense to know what had happened in a distant land. How they did not anticipate what was coming and instead fueled it, only to be caught in the worst massacre ever to take place on the planet. Germans of pre-WWII just did not know what was coming. Nor did the rest of the world. Indians

Comparing the two is only to wake up the slumbering nations out of their complacency and teach them what could go wrong if they do not make necessary checks right now. It may not be Modi, it may be someone else twenty years from now. What we are creating here in India are the same conditions that are ripe for such a man (Hitler) to come onto the stage.

Have you ever stopped to ponder whether the reasons behind Modi's rise and survival as cited by various Hindutvavdis are valid ...Nothing exists in vacuum.

This is the exact notion I am trying to fight here. To condone it, then accept it and then legitimize it, saying that such actions are valid. I am taking a stand here - that no matter what the conditions, such actions are NOT valid. That we need to take a legal recourse to settle our disputes, that a state and its machinery should not participate in indiscriminate and unlawful actions that put to death certain sections, based on their identity.

Modern nation state as a construct of the western civilization is a reality in today's world. You might not like it but it is here to stay for at least another few hundred years.

Hmm.. that's an invalid conclusion. When did I profess that I do not like the concept of a nation-state?

Unlike you, I believe, even militant Muslims have a responsibility to uphold the basic tenets of "Indian version" of secularism as enshrined in our constitution.

Once again, that's an invalid conclusion. I have not put the onus on one community alone.

However, I do believe that it is the responsibility of the majority and the privileged to set examples. And I don't think we have seen such examples in India. Letting Modi go unchallenged is another of such bad examples.

Sujai has built up a story without appreciating that the world is today living under a threat of Islamic terrorism. It is necessary to fight this with a binding force which is not religion based but nation based.

I think Modi has done this well by projecting the "Gujarati's" as a community. It appears that even Muslims in Gujarat have started supporting Modi.

His success therefore is welcome and represents a resounding drubbing of communalists who are in the Congress and media.

Congress has long lost the ability to lead the country to progress and is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to our progress. It lacks vision as a party and indulges only in the "Divide and Rule" policy.

Modi has tried and is succeeding in uniting the two communities in Gujarat and it is reflected in the result.

People who still harp on the Post Godhra riots forget that there was a very strong incitement to the riot in the form of Godhra carnage and the counter blast was natural. Even if one can argue that the administration could perhaps have been stricter, in such emotion charged atmosphere it is not always possible to manage the situation as effectively as one would like to have.

We must try looking beyond the twin incidents of Godhra carnage and post Godhra riots and look to the future.

Sujai needs to develop such a positive outook than to continue inciting both communities against each other.

Vijay other.
Vijay

Unfortunately, this article repeats the long-standing myth that Hitler was a vegetarian and/or advocated such
a diet.

In fact, Hitler was not a vegetarian (nor were the top Nazis), as the New York Times'
accurately pointed out in a 15 March, 2005 "correction" of similar statements,
observing that Hitler "did eat at least some meat."

Ironically, this persistent and pernicious myth about Hitler has long been used
to try to discredit vegetarians by associating them with such an evil and violent
person, even though he regularly ate meat and fowl.

This is confirmed in numerous reliable published accounts and first hand sources,
including Robert Payne's classic work, "The Life and Death of Adolph Hitler,"
and Albert Speer's well-known autobiography, "Inside the Third Reich."

They make it clear that at private meals and those with his associates, Hitler
avidly and openly dined on such dishes as sausages, squab (pigeon), ham, liver,
and poultry.

Because of chronic health problems, during certain periods Hitler apparently
avoided meat (as well as alcohol and tobacco), and his propaganda chief Joseph
Goebbels often tried to portray him as a purist and ascetic, whose life was dedicated
to sacrificing harmful pleasures for his people. But good propaganda does not make
good history.

Payne observes that Hitler "had a special fondness for Bavarian sausages,"
and quotes Hitler's personal chef in Hamburg as bragging that the stuffed squab
he prepared was "a great favorite of Mr. Hitler."

No, Hitler and his Nazi thugs were not vegetarians. Indeed, they actually
banned vegetarian organizations in Germany and the occupied countries, and Himmler
was a chicken farmer and slaughterer before turning to the slaughter of people.

Lewis Regenstein
President, The Interfaith Council for the Protection of Animals and Nature
Atlanta, GA
>>
>>
>

Sujai..

Since you brought it up, those who do not learn from history, are bound to repeat it. But it looks like your view of history is selective amnesia and your history begins only after hindu reaction as if such reaction exists in a vaccume. It is fashionable to equate anything hindus assert to be fundamentalism, fascism, nazism, holocost, genocide and what have you and such abuse is not new to hindus, it has been tried against BJP time and time again, in fact, that has been the main currency of discourse in India from predominantly leftist establishment. The Sonia's 'merchant of death' campaign made such point of view a main election issue before voters of Gujarat - and people of Gujarat gave it a decisive response as to who is real merchant of death and who is not. Now you are essentially equating Gujaratis and hindus at large to be modern day foot solders of Nazism because they refuse to agree with your assessment of BJP, history, or lessons of history. BJP has ruled at the center, BJP has ruled in dozen states in India and quite frankly, there has been nothing spectacular or extra ordinary about it, except shrill propaganda we hear from likes of you. Get over it. Days of leftist monopoly over political discourse are over. In fact, it shows leftists can not tolerate or accommodate any other point of views and must resort to corrupting the discourse with Gobbelian propaganda. It is precisely such texture of politics in India that makes BJP even more attractive to Indians. You keep it up, see BJP go from strength to strength.

There is nothing original in comparing Modi to Hitler. Hundreds of pseudo-secular social activists,politicians and journalists have done so. And yet, as a Gujarati, like other 5.5 crore Gujaratis, my response to this insinuation and many others was to line up outside the polling booths on election day and vote for Modi. You can call Modi whatever you want. The general public will simply respond by voting for him, election after election, poll after poll. This is our way of fighting Modi haters.

By the way, is this comment true ? >>

Sanjay : "Sujai also told us that opponents of university admission quotas have strong similarities with Adolph Hitler. Sujai even went so far as to create a chart depicting such a correlation. Everybody who isn't a Left-wing wacko like Sujai is liable to be called a Hitler by him.

I think Sujai loudly advertises his own credibility -- or rather the lack of it."

Haha..how pathetic. Guess all Gujaratis are Hitlers then. 5.5 crore mini-Hitlers. :)

Sujai, relax maadi. Just as there was never a French revolution in this country, there will never be a Hitler. Fear not. Use your ability to write in a more constructive and positive manner. There is much people like you can DO with so much commitment and zeal ! Rather than wasting your energy in ranting and tilting at windmills, take up a cause- be it increasing the litracy levels or encouraging oganic farming- there are millions of choices.

Lewis Regenstein:
Thanks for dispelling the myth. I will ensure I do not characterize Hitler as a vegetarian.

But understand that this was not an effort to discredit vegetarians, or bachelors or good orators, by comparing them with Adolf Hitler.

The writer seems to be a bengali and will do well to write about the other HOLOCAUST (Nandigram) and the OTHER HITLER (Mr Budhaadeb).
He should leave complex topics which he does not seem to have comprehended. 5.5 Crore Gujaratis cannot be wrong.(Just as xx no of Bengalis cannot be wrong to have voted the communists to power in W.B.)
It is time to understand the voter in Gujarat rather than make sweeping generalization based on once own pre-conceived notions, beliefs and prejudices.
-rocky...a proud Gujarati

before Modi there was Advani and Thackeray and look at them now.I guess these fellows realise soon enough that if they keep sinning at this rate they'll end up as cockroaches or other such slimy limeys in their next birth

i said at this rate Modi will end up as a cockroach in his next birth,so he better mend his ways

kela,

I thought you dont believe in karma, rebirth and other such Hindu nonsense :)

When majority is not right

Many Indian Hindus hail the victory of Narendra Modi for putting together a Hindu brigade to fight the evil Muslims who are terrorizing this country.

5.5 Crore Gujaratis cannot be wrong.

writes one commenter.

The fact that Gujarat has voted Modi back to power with overwhelming majority is a clear sign that he cannot be wrong. If so many people voted him back, naturally he is not wrong, isn't it? If he is wrong, why would people vote him back?

Many Indians do not understand democracy. They think an electoral vote will decide everything. If a majority in a nation votes to put the minority to death, is that right?

Take Rwanda, for example, Hutus (the majority) felt it was OK to kill Tutsi (the minority) and that ended up in genocide where nearly million people died within 100 days. Can we say, 'few millions of Hutus cannot be wrong?'

Take Serbia, for example, if majority Serbians felt it was OK to kill minority Kosovans, does that make it right?

If Hindus of India vote as a majority for exterminating Muslims of India does that make it right?

Is majority right in these cases? How do we deal with it when certain majority wants to discriminate, prosecute, traumatize, terrorize, marginalize, kill, or exterminate a certain minority?

That's why we have constitution and judicial system to safe guard rights of humans even when they are marginalized, even when they are a minority, even when they are pushed to a corner. We need to take legal recourse no matter how emotional or sentimental an issue is. And that's NOT what happened in Gujarat.

What is wrong about Gujarat?

What's gone wrong in Gujarat is very simple. (I am not sure why many Indian Hindus are not able to see this.)

A state or an individual in an official capacity cannot abet, support or participate in targeted killings of certain people based on their identity, no matter what. Such actions cannot be condoned, tolerated or excused, no matter what.

When an Islamic militant blows up a train, he is considered a criminal. When is caught, he is put in jail. He is not allowed to walk scot-free. He is not hailed as a hero and voted to power.

So, when a Hindu political leader does something illegal, he should arrested, prosecuted and put in jail. He should not be allowed to walk scot-free, and definitely he should not be allowed to hold power.

Indians gone fascist

Educated and elite Indian Hindus have started to engage in a rationalization exercise to excuse Modi's actions saying that what he did was indeed right, as clearly seen by his electoral wins.
Democracy does not mean majority prevails all the time. It means it prevails as long as you stick to legal methods as provisioned by Indian Constitution and legal code. When you subvert them, even your electoral wins have to be trashed to uphold the law of the land.

Indian Hindus have gone blind in their hatred for Muslims. So much so that, they are not only ready to excuse Modi of his crimes, they are ready to hail him as their leader.

And that's when I start fearing the trends and ask myself- How long before we become completely fascist?

sorry for the double post,it was an error.
Atlantean,i don't but i was surmising on as to why the likes of Advani/Thackeray ,who are lions/tigers at the begining of their careers turn into domestic cats in their later lifes

I was wondering what they meant by Sujai's rant. Now I know.

This article is an early warning of what might be looming, I hope this warning puts us Indians, Gujaratis and the world Citizens on a cuatious alert. I hope it does not happen, but we need to guard the safety of every human, as shamelessly we did not guard the safety of Jews in Germany, which enveloped the whole world in WWII and all of us are paying for our guilt one way or the other. Let's not let this repeat this crime be repeated again.

Sujai's article is in the interests of the very Gujaratis who have criticized this article. It is in their interest to safeguard the nation and the state from ruthless humans.

A thousand Gujaratis were killed brutally, you know the words to describe it. Mr. Modi was asked repeatedly by the Television channles, he did not sound repentent, nor did he say sorry to the Gujaratis that were inhumanely made homeless, instead he was arrogant. That is one of the qualities of a tyrant, we need to be concerened with.

Hate is destructive, the patterns Sujai has described between Hitler and Modi are worth studying and guarding the humanity from a possibile disaster.

Right after Tehelka's report, I wrote an article with similar comparision, I just cannot find where it is now.

Shashi Tharoor's column addresses this.

It has distorted the voting preferences of an electorate that knows which individuals it wants but not necessarily which policies. It has permitted parties that are shifting alliances of individuals rather than vehicles of coherent sets of ideas. It has forced governments to concentrate not on governing but on staying in office, and obliged them to cater to the lowest common denominator of their coalitions. It is time for a change.

Partly agree with Sujai, and blokesbogin...

1) Gujju Society is less stratified than in any other state. Hence we see more voters chosing a more radical action than in other states.

2) Congress cannot divide gujarat as much as it usually does. So the divide and Rule strategy does not work well.

Any Indian society waaay more stratified than Germany or France. Hence a french revolution is very less probable in India, nor is a Holocaust.

What is more probable is rioting. Which is what happened in Gujarat, something like a Jewish/Romany holocaust is impossible anywhere in India unless there is very limited stratification.

The divide and rule policy of the congress inherited from their political forefathers (the british) is used to keep the votes in their favor. As seen in countless examples. This has failed to work in Gujarat. However the victory of the BJP does not mean that there would be an institutionalized violence in the state which resembles anything close to the Jewish/Romany Holocaust.

What could happen, as i mentioned above is that there could be violence and the state apparatus could be looking the other way when violence is commited against muslims.

This is why i consider this article to be a hype. Its distorting reality in a very fucked up way and not giving the root causes of why BJP keeps coming to power.

Democracy is a failure when people are not clear on what they want to achieve. This electorate wants to keep the congress out of power. It is my belief that people are fed up of the divide and rule, leftist appeasement ideas of congress. Its anyone's guess why they would keep congress out of power.

This is not fascism, its a voter reaction AGAINST congress or for that matter any pseudo secularist party :)

Agreed with Anindo.. Nehru was one of the biggest mistakes with some minimal positive points. Sardar Vallabhai Patel was a waay better choice. Its just that Nehru had his tongue stuck in gandhis a-hole :). The legacy still continues :) thru Indira Gandhy and RaHul Gandhy and Sonia Gandhy :)

Why did Modi win?

In a nation which only puts up dishonest and corrupt leaders who are blatantly hypocrite, a murderer and a criminal who is honest comes out as a winner.

Congress or Left of India holds no moral authority over BJP. Their accusations sound hollow bereft of honesty. These parties don't know what it takes to set an example to gain a moral high ground. Indian people clearly see through their charade of taking a high moral ground without having done anything in that direction. When these parties accuse Narendra Modi or his goons as 'merchants of death', they do not back it up with evidences nor do they follow it up with action. India has missed the opportunity to use one of the best revealing stories in Indian journalism [Tehelka]. History will not condone us for this.

The opposition lacks moral authority

Yes, Modi allowed the carnage that followed Godhra train incident where Muslims were selectively chosen, rounded up an killed, while the administration and its machinery, stood by, abetted and participated in that carnage.
What did Congress do after Indira Gandhi's assassination?

Its leaders went to the street in New Delhi, rounded up Sikhs and burnt them alive, where thousands lost their life, just because they belonged to an identity. And Rajiv Gandhi purportedly reacted, rather coldly, "When a mighty tree falls, it is only natural that the earth around it does shake a little..."

After those killings, a commission and its report which looked into those calculated-and-methodical killings was rubbished and completely ignored by the Congress. A book that detailed those riots was banned forever.

Even recently Congress has not acted on Sri Krishna Commission Report which looked into riots that followed Babri Masjid episode where thousands of Muslims were killed.

Indian Left has no stance of its own on such issues, and when it gets a chance to make a stand, it does a Nandigram, riddled with hypocrisies only an Indian politician can conjure up.

When the nation cannot bring honest leaders to the front, the criminals, thieves and goons who confess their crimes openly in front of millions are lauded and hailed as strong and honest over the weak and corrupt leaders who are blatantly dishonest.

Posted from E=mc^2

Very funny. Not a mention of the economic policies of the Modi Govt. Some of the policies were no doubt very sensible, eg. regular paid power instead of free power to the farmers, etc.

IMHO Milton Friedman principle of Disaster Economics can be applied very nicely here. As it can be to 9/11.

Sujai:
Comment 24 contradicts what you were saying in the whole article. Fascism is not the disease that affects india. Its communal violence. Could be directed against any community and none are as big to create something even close to facism.

you could compare Rajiv Ghandy with Modi and thus to Hitler.

Do u see how pointless it is? Do you see why i call your article a hype?

For the Gujju Hindus, BJP is the lesser among evils. Such as the Congress Thughs and the motherfucking commies.

Sujai..

The majority rule is a construct of modern democracy and nation-state whereby people express their will. That is how people are allowed to create the power structures within nation-state. Democracies can smooth when will majority is allowed to manifest and minorities accept the will of majority in exchange for protection of some basic freedoms and rights of minorities. In India, that is not the case. The minorities do not want majority to have same freedoms and rights that minorities want to demand and enjoy in India. They have made a precondition for peace and co-existance that hindus must give up their religion, their culture, their way of life and until such doctrine is enshrined in Indian nation-state, such nation-state and its national identity is not acceptable to them - that belligerent insistance of minorities created partition of India that killed millions of hindus and made many more hindus destitute in their own country. Was partition state-sponsored? Was Indian nation-state able to protect the hindus against this holocost? No. It remained mute participant and spectator. Indian nation-state was built over holocost of Hindus. Hindus treated it as a price they had to pay for building modern nation-state. Fine. Minorities got all the protections and freedoms in new nation-state. But the belligerence that majority should not have any still continue unabated. Kashmir has been burning for last several decades - hindus have been driven out from there and made refugee in their own land once again. Why? Because the minorities want hindus to have no freedoms or rights, they do not want hindus to exist or co-exist with them - that is the terms of peace hindus are offered. That is the term offered for accepting legitimacy of Indian nation-state. You would still not call it a holocost, right? Than look at what happened in Bangladesh - again, millions of hindus got butchered, raped and driven out from Bengladesh and what was their fault? That they were Hindus. Islamists were not prepared to live among Hindus in peace and offer co-existance to hindus. Hindus must cease to be hindus in order to get peace from Islamists. Taslima who criticised such atrocities on Hindus got driven out not only from Bangladesh but also from commie bastians of India - she now lives in India under house-arrest - why? Because Islamists in India think she offended Moslems for criticizing the holocost of Hindus in Bengladesh - it is increasingly clear that killing, raping, driving out hindus and banishing any expression of Hinduism is official policy of Islamists of last 1000 years and there is no break from this policy on the part of moslems. You would still not consider it anti-hindu nazism, right? Ayodhya set the litmus test - have islamists given up their jehad against Hinduism, are they willing to co-exist and live in peace with hindus, are they willing to reconcile with aspiration of hindu majority, are they willing to admit wrongs done by islamists and willing to give it up - Islamists emphetically said no. A non-descript non-functioning structure that was already being used as Hindu temple became a battle cry for Islamic jehad against Hindu majority. Wide-spread anti-hindu humiliation and propaganda followed over Hindu desire to have their place of worship restored. No moslem was killed when Hindus pulled down that symbol of Jehad with bare hands - but aftermath had moslem riots and terrorism erupted all over India, all the way to Pakistan and Bangladesh. What does that say? That moslems felt insulted by attack on that symbol of Jehad of bygone era? Islamists made it clear that they do not want peace or reconcilliation with Hindus nor want hindus to enjoy their religious or cultural freedoms in India. When train carrying pilgrims from Ayodhya was burnt down in Godhara, it was the last straw that broke camel's back. If Moslems do not want to live or co-exist with hindus in peace, than why should hindus? And both moslem and hindu reaction was on predicted lines. There have been hundreds of such riots but what makes this one stand out was the larger context within which it occurred - plus, for the first time, moslems suffered more than hindus and there happened to be BJP government at the helm of Gujarat and Center. For decades, the pseudo secularist propaganda had equated BJP with Nazis without any proof, but along came this riot that is now showcased as a clinching evidence - they are hanging on to it as if their ideological life depend on it. A riot in which both moslems and hindus killed with equal zeal, a riot in which both hindus and moslems had to flee to refugee camps, a riots where both hindus and moslems got killed by each other and police bullets, a riot that was contained within a week, a riot in which many police got killed, a riot in which army was brought in within 48 hours - became a massacre, progrom, genocide, holocost in post-riot propaganda. Elections after elections were fought on such propaganda and BJP keeps coming back with same resounding rebuttal from people of Gujarat. Unable to convince the people of Gujarat, these propagandists are now equating 5.5 crore Gujaratis to foot solders of Nazism. It is essentially a diversionary tactics - Hindus in India are what jews were in Germany. It is Hindus who are subject of Holocost and their culture that is the subject of state-sponsored demoniztion and banishment. And that is what hindus are awakening to. More you keep up this hindus-are-nazis propaganda, more and more people will come to realize who the real Nazis are in India.

Also remember a small community called Kashmiri Pundits????

take a statistics on how many of them are in Kashmir and how many are outside.

before you think of calling modi a hitler try to find out what caused the exit of Kashmiri Pundits from Kashmir.

I guess, while the US denied visa to Modi. They would probably be happy accepting the people who made Kashmiri Pundits dissapear from Kashmir.

Where is the voice of the world when Hindus are massacred?

Modi isn't Hitler, but Sujai is definitely a Goebbels in training.

Did you even happen to hear of this, Sujai:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marad_massacre

Narendra Modi's rise is troubling, because it represents yet another cunning and amoral politician using violence and targetting of minority groups to advance his cause. No one should forget the murder of the sikhs of 1984 by the "secularist" congress - this was one of the first and hugely bloody use of violence for politican purposes in indepenendent india.

Making statements like "Modi is the same as Hitler" lacks any factual basis and is based on historical ignorance. All it does is cause confusion and dissension amongst those indians who want a peaceful and prosperous india.

The real question is: how can we lessen the role of violence in indian politics? How can governance and policing be improved so that vulnerable groups, whether kashmiri hindus or delhi sikhs or gujarati muslims or bihari workers in assam can no longer be targetted???

If you guys are not from Gujarat, then just stop all this nuisance. It's a problem of Gujarat and we know how to deal with it.

Don't be jealous of Gujarat's progress and communal harmony that we have achieved currently, effort like this to disturb it will never be successful. This is not a right way to earn money for your bread. Media and people like you should concentrate on current burning issues and try to find solution to it. Everyday we are affected by terrorist blows. We have burning issue in east. We have poverty, illiteracy, fetoicide and biggest of all is corruption. Shoud'nt we concentrate on this issues rather than this meaningless discussion.

Thanks

We are concerned with what is happening in
Pakistan which is a soverign country, but it is our closest neighbour. Gujarat is a State of
India, so what is happening there has serious
repercussions all across India.

Sujai,
Modi is a state leader. The Indian constitution is bigger than him and it is secular. Gujaratis have been traditionally vegetarian while Germans are not. Modi being a vegetarian is not something weird or Hitler like. Hitler becoming vegetarian is weird. You don't understand that Gujarat is a state and Germany a country and there are innumerable differences. But if you are so paranoid to find similarities here one more to maske you happy - Both Gujarat and Germany start with 'G' :).

Kerty#27

Where did you come up with the following statements?

"The minorities do not want majority to have same freedoms and rights that minorities want to demand and enjoy in India."

"Indian nation-state was built over holocost of Hindus. Hindus treated it as a price they had to pay for building modern nation-state."

"Because Islamists in India think she (Taslima) offended Moslems for criticizing the holocost of Hindus in Bengladesh"

"plus, for the first time, moslems suffered more than hindus and there happened to be BJP government at the helm of Gujarat and Center."

Mike

Adesai,

I appreciate this solution oriented statement "The real question is: how can we lessen the role of violence in indian politics? How can governance and policing be improved so that vulnerable groups, whether kashmiri hindus or delhi sikhs or gujarati muslims or bihari workers in assam can no longer be targetted???"

I hope we can focus on this, all of the above is given, what solutions next?

Hate business is destructive, it will destroy every one, not Just one group, but all. xxit, hits the fan.

Mike

Dear Sujai,

I applaud you for writing this article, because such debates are necessary. What happened in Gujarat (not in now, but in 2002) is troublesome, and the rise of fanaticism among the hindu community is not a good sign.

As others have said, it is not productive nor conducive for proper discourse when you resort to name calling. This becomes a distraction. One should get to the roots of why he was elected again after the 2002 riots, rather than his character should be our focus. Democracy may not be a perfect system, but there is no other system that's better. So, we have to accept its results, if it has to succeed long term.

In democracy there is a political pendulum that keeps swinging right and left. That explains the reasons for BJP's rise to power, nationwide earlier, and in Gujarat now. Decades of misrule by Congress, and more importantly, decades of hypocrisy by the leftist intellectuals hasn't done India any favors. Again and again, the intelligentia of the country has failed us by not calling a spade a spade. I am not just talking about intellectuals who oppose a uniform civil code in India, but also those who turn a blind eye to the lopsided development led by Nehru-Gandhi family for four decades.

It is not too late for India. I disagree that Gujarat/Modi phenomenon is a trend that will envelop all of India and we will see a rise of hindu nationalism à la nazi Germany. We have a much better institutions today and globalization will prevent any major destabilizing trend. Indian judiciary at the highest levels and the media is relatively free and independent for that to occur.

Instead we should concentrate on why extremists (of one form or the other) keep coming to power in India. The following come to mind:

- Education for all. Too many poor people are illiterate. Our highest priority should be to provide secular education to all.

- Lopsided development. We have ignored many states and within states, many reasons far too long and pampered a few. We need to change that.

- Uniform civil code. All are Indians first and they need to respect the laws of the land. No special privileges to anyone just because they belong to a particular community.

- Better courts. Our courts are notoriously slow and corrupt (at lower levels). We should put more resources in law enforcement and justice.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

The people of West Bengal elected Jyoti Basu for
a number of terms with all the hopes of having
an utopian communistic state, but they became
more desperate after each election. Even though
we can proudly say that Modi was democratically
elected, but most of the electorate might have
voted for Modi from an emotionally charged
decision and saw a super human leadership in him
while forgeting the bygone real drama of pre-meditated carnage in Gujarat.

A.S.
while i get your naive(condescending ??) view of the complex Indian socio-economics (typical of anyone associated with missionaries), I do not get what point you are trying to make.

The Gujarat verdict is more of angst against pseudo secular congress rather than support for fundamentalism. It came out more so in case of Gujarat because of limited stratification of Gujju Society.

Its dangerous indeed, and I think we need to view it as a failure on congress' part rather than a victory on BJPs part.

Let me ask you this: Assume that you were in a Xtian majority country (one which you are trying hard to achieve in India) and the government thugs kept attacking xtianity, would you not vote for a party thats slightly supportive of xtianity. Or for that matter, would you not vote for a fundamentalist xtian party, because thats the only hope you got against the current political thugs....Thats exactly what happenend in Gujarat.

Its shows more of a colossal failure of congress that makes even the moderate hindu go to the extreme and vote for modi.

Its not hindutva or any other fucking shit that you are seeing here. Its the hypocrisy of pseudo secularism that leave the moderate majority limited, extreme, choices like modi to vote for

The majority can be wrong, but their emotions are predictable in case of limited stratification.

Sujai,

You better get yourself converted to other religion. If you don't have pride in what you are.. than get the f**k out of what you are.

It is very unlikely that the BJP will win centrally. If they did that would be with the NDA. I think the NDA's were better than the present gang. On the paper the Congress look good but in action they are not secular and more divisive than BJP. I do not see what is the big fear about. If elected the Congress would have disturbed a hell of a lot more shit in Gujarat. I for one think the staus quao is good for Gujarat. And the people seem to think so too. Comparision of Modi wirh Htller is fear mongering of the lowest kind and does not deserve any serious discussion.

Sujai is trying to become the new Andy Warhol: "Everyone will get 15 minutes of Hitler infamy"

This kind of comparison is irresponsible and stupid. When you mention Nehru as one of India's great leaders, you display your ignorance. Under him, India witnessed the start of decades of Congress ineptitude an corruption. BJP has its share of corrupt polititians but Congress institutionalized it. For too long, people like you have made a strong case for electing weak leaders under the guise of acceptance and fear of showing the Muslims, who abuse the privlege of living in India and then behaving like it's not their country, that they have been given more in India than any Hindu got in Pakistan. Modi was a fairly and duly re-elected leader of the wealthiest most advanced state in India, and its presence at the top of the heap is thanks, in no small part, to his leadership. He has not cow-towed to anyone, including the US, and for that he also deserves accolades. Stop throwing around these extreme comparisons to make an invalid point.

Please write about the other HOLOCAUST (Nandigram) and the OTHER HITLER (Mr Budhaadeb).
proselytizers should stay off this discussions.
To add to #39
1)In the long history of US no black has become president. But in our SECULAR COUNTRY we have had presidents, governors, CM's. Now do you want us to give you the PM's post on a silver salver??
2)You kill a hindu criminal, no one is bothered. The moment you kill a muslim criminal,all hell breaks loose. You are called pseudo_....etc.etc., you are hitler, you are anti-minority.
3)The press highlights riots and forgets Godhra...sickening
4)Nandigram violence is all but forgotten by the left-oriented press...why not compare it to riots in gujarat??? why not blame Mr.Buddha?? The press is totally blind.
It has to be understood that politics everywhere in all countries is dominated by the majority community( UK, US, and the latest example muslim dominated malaysia, pakistan(the largest minority is xtian not hindus , can you imagine that Sujai). the earlier minorities understand this the better for them.
Let BJP continue and all this will change. We will deal with proselytizers too effectively.
-rocky....a proud Gujarati

I have never, in one thread, seen so much grandstanding, hyperbole and ridiculousness.

congrats, all, for everyone's total lack of thought and reason and simply resorting to emotional ranting on what could have been an interesting and timely discussion.

Kerty:

Democracies can smooth when will majority is allowed to manifest and minorities accept the will of majority in exchange for protection of some basic freedoms and rights of minorities.

Does the "accepting the will of majority" include targeted killing of minorities?

The minorities do not want majority to have same freedoms and rights that minorities want to demand and enjoy in India.

What freedoms and rights do minorities in India enjoy that the majority do not? And what steps do the minorities take to ensure that such freedoms and rights are not extended to the majorities?

[BTW, are you confusing sops and incentives with rights and freedoms?]

They have made a precondition for peace and co-existance that hindus must give up their religion, their culture, their way of life...

I see Hindus asking other Hindus to give up their way of life. Some of them, acting as policemen and enforcing agents, are dictating other Hindus to conform to their version of Hinduism.

belligerent insistance of minorities created partition of India that killed millions of hindus and made many more hindus destitute in their own country.

Did that Partition somehow miraculously saved all the "minorities" from getting killed?

Was partition state-sponsored?

No, it was not state-sponsored. Both the newly-formed nations tried their best to contain it.

Indian nation-state was built over holocost of Hindus.

Was there a holocaust during Indian Partition? If there was one, I missed it. You mean 'hollow cost'?

Hindus treated it as a price they had to pay for building modern nation-state.

And Muslims didn't?

Because Islamists in India think she (Taslima) offended Moslems for criticizing the holocost of Hindus in Bengladesh
??

Are we inventing history here on this forum?

What does that say? That moslems felt insulted by attack on that symbol of Jehad of bygone era? Islamists made it clear that they do not want peace or reconcilliation with Hindus nor want hindus to enjoy their religious or cultural freedoms in India.

Oh, now I get it.

When you say you want to 'enjoy religious or cultural freedoms in India', you want the exclusive privilege to break down mosques and built your temples!

plus, for the first time, moslems suffered more than hindus and there happened to be BJP government at the helm of Gujarat and Center.

It's like saying- 'Well, many Jews got burnt in the furnaces, and there happened to be Nazi party at the helm!'

the pseudo secularist propaganda had equated BJP with Nazis without any proof,

Finding 'similarities' involves reading of history. It is not bolstered with proofs. It is supported with similar trends. If one were to equate Chengiz Khan with Pol Pot (just for the sake of argument), one would find similar trends, there won't be proofs or evidences.

A riot in which both moslems and hindus killed with equal zeal,

Except that in one case, the state government and its apparatus aided, abetted and even participated on behalf of one side! THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE!

Unable to convince the people of Gujarat, these propagandists are now equating 5.5 crore Gujaratis to foot solders of Nazism.

BTW, the rest of India has still hope for Gujarat. All of 5.5 Crore Gujaratis did not vote Modi into power. There is still sanity left there - other parties got their share of vote too. Even those who voted him into power do not share the same ideology.

When Hitler was voted into power, even those Germans who voted him didn't know what was to come. Innocent and nice Germans, along with hardcore Nazis, wanted Hitler in power. I suspect the same with most Gujaratis. They just don't know what they are creating in their own state the way most Germans didn't know what they were creating in their own country.

Hindus in India are what jews were in Germany.

??

Again, are we inventing history here?

SS: So is this your emotional rant on how everyone is emotionally ranting :)

Folks:

Thanks for your comments. Sometimes, one could just debate and explore possibilities. It is not to prove whether I am right or wrong. It is to see if we can conduct a civil debate. Most of these debates confirm my belief that we are in deeper shit than what I would like to tell myself.

Modi may not be Hitler and may be he is far from it. May be, India is not ripe yet for bringing such a leader onto the stage yet. May be, what he did in 2002 is a one-off incident which he won't repeat again. That's the good news.

The bad news is that we are creating the very similar situation that Europe went through during late 1800s and early 1900s. WW-II was the point of culmination of that situation. The exit point for fueling such hatred for another and instilling such superiority complex of oneself is a blood bath. The more the pent up sentiments and prolonged indoctrination the bigger the blood bath.

Many nations who have experienced this war have gone back to check such sentiments from growing within and have put in place many harsh boundaries, some sound ridiculous - like the law which prohibits people from denying Holocaust.

India continues to harbor similar sentiments, not really knowing where it is taking us. India continues to play innocent when small flash points occur, thinking it is all OK.

Indians are myopic which is clearly seen in all their policies- either it is road building, or nation building.

They are being myopic in this context too.

Nearly 93% Indians believe that 'our culture is superior to others', topping the list in a survey conducted in various nations [available at pewglobal.com]. Also, we are very insecure about our greatness. 92% of Indians think that "our way of life needs to be protected against foreign influences."

In addition to this superiority complex and xenophobia, which we share with pre-WWII Nazi Germany, we also have a pent up hatred for minority religions in India. I wish there was a poll conducted to check the hatred for other religions within the country, and I believe we will top the list in that survey too.

I see a trend which does not bode well for India. In spite of all the prosperity, we are plunging our nation into darkness. It is like entering a long and deep tunnel. We will not know till we reach it. And I believe we are racing towards that tunnel.

Sujai:

I would like to correct your slightly myopic vision here:

1) indian myopia leads from unable to give themselves good leaders. And that could come when the society is uniform. Which is impossible in india and therefore i do not see any great leaders coming out of india. NOR do i believe that we as a nation would be a great nation. We would go far.. but i dont think we would ever be in "I am fucking serious" league.

2) Indian society is too stratified and each strata is hating each other. If you conduct the poll remembering only communities and FORGETTING the fucking numbers (as you mentioned) we would have pretty much a lot of people in the minority hating the majority too.

India would be a great nation the day we forget this minority majority stuff and move on.. and I think that day would never come. If thats what you meant to convey in this convoluted article.. then i agree with you.

but once again. Modi cannot be compared to a Hitler :) too different situations

Dear Sujai,

Just because you can draw similarities between two events in history doesn't mean present has to follow the same pattern.

What's your solution to this problem? It is easy to be negative and criticize, but is there a way forward? There is so much to criticize in India. Look at Bimaru states. Look at corruption. Look at the corruption of minds that is taking place due to mindless aping of the west. Why not talk about those too?

It is more productive to talk about how we can prevent India from becoming fascist. The solution lies in an educated and enlightened public.

I don't agree with Lakshmikanth either, any nation can become great, and India has a tremendous potential. Stratification can be overcome. Which country does not have some form of stratification? Due to increasing mobility and globalization more and more cosmopolitan culture will take hold in a few generations.

Regards,

Ravi

Dear SS,

You said:

"I have never, in one thread, seen so much grandstanding, hyperbole and ridiculousness."

And thanks for adding your some of your own to the debate.

Ravi

ya whatevs... see what I mean? this "discussion" has devolved into swearing, namecalling and threats but *I* am the problem?

hahahhahaha.

SS: Let me give you the temporal smile :):):)

So much for name calling.. what else can we say of a convoluted article and an equally convoluted commentator crowd

or... does... the ... article make sense to you?!!?????

I have purposefully chosen not to comment on the article... I see both sides here. my personal opinion is that modi is not a nice man. I would need to read a lot more to back that statement up properly. so I have stayed out of the fray.

what I do not agree with are all the people who stick up for them simply because they are gujarati.

head in the sand tactics always blow up in your face at a later date

Sujai, the problem here - as is often the case with your pieces - is that the possibly pertinent points you make get lost in the hyperbole. So this is not really about the points you raise but the shoddy hyperbole that weakens them.

A couple of points re your article as well as your riposte.

Sujai: "No, it (partition) was not state-sponsored. Both the newly-formed nations tried their best to contain it."

Anamika: Technically it WAS state-sponsored, just that the state was a colonial one that was retreating from the land in question. Should Iraq be split into three or more countries, that too shall be "state-sponsored" for all that the US denies its role.

Sujai: Was there a holocaust during Indian Partition?

Anamika: This is where hyperbole leads you. If you're going to compare Modi to Hitler because approx 1000 people died in riots - NOT at the hands of the military or police as in the case of the Nazis - then, you will end up in a corner when the same is extended to the Partition violence where far more people died.

The percentage change in demographic between Pakistan and India since, as well as well as change in population in 1947 ALSO ends up supporting the "Hindu" holocaust idea (Muslims have grown to 15% in India while the Hindu/Sikh population has dwindled to neglible in Pakistan).

I think the problem comes in when one uses words like holocaust and genocide indiscriminately. In fact, I have to say that this usage - initially by US government and media - has led to a huge desensitization amongst people around the world.

When "genocides" or "holocausts" get bandied about for millions dead, as well as a few thousand (with little impact on percentages), the words lose their meaning and importance. Any use of these ends up being nothing more than emotional rants.

Do criticize Modi and BJP all you want. But unless you are able to draw far more pertinent links than the ones above, your arguments will be quickly demolished merely on the hype

PS: Finally, Sujai, there is an idea called "appropriation" where a member of a "majority" or "empowered" community takes on the role of speaking for "others." (Look this up please). This may be for the best of intentions, but it robs those who SHOULD have a voice of the opportunity to speak for themselves. Its something that certain kinds of Indians inherited from the British and continue to perpetrate in the worst unconscious ways.

You stake a claim - through your article - to speak for the "minorities" in Gujarat as well as the Holocaust victims in the piece above, appropriating both voices. And that makes me very uneasy. Also, it again undermines your credibility. Something for you to think about?

#55,

Anamika:

When I said
No, it (partition) was not state-sponsored. Both the newly-formed nations tried their best to contain it.

I meant the riots and killings that came along with the partition.

That's my mistake. It didn't come out right.

If you're going to compare Modi to Hitler because approx 1000 people died in riots - NOT at the hands of the military or police as in the case of the Nazis - then, you will end up in a corner when the same is extended to the Partition violence where far more people died.

Anamika, relax, and reread what I wrote. I said we are creating similar situation that existed during late 1800s and early 1900s. There were many small incidents that preceded the Holocaust. I am referring to them.

(Muslims have grown to 15% in India while the Hindu/Sikh population has dwindled to neglible in Pakistan).

Was the dwindling population of Hindus attributed to targeted killing in Pakistan?

Also, are you in the business of nitpicking?

If you had read my argument without getting caught in the trivialities, you would have got the message.

But I guess, you were keen on finding holes than trying to understand the message ;-)

I have not termed what happened in Gujarat 'genocide' or 'holocaust', but I do maintain that current trends suggest that it could lead to one. Please go back and reread the article and use Control F to see when the words 'genocide' and 'holocaust' first appear.

You stake a claim - through your article - to speak for the "minorities" in Gujarat

I do not speak for Minorities in Gujarat.

I speak for myself. I am quite selfish that way. I see the trends moving in a direction where everyone would be eventually targeted, not just Muslims. The rule of the law would be subverted to make way for rule of sentiments of certain communities. I am fighting for myself and my family who might have to face such a calamity in this country.

Also, it again undermines your credibility.

Let me worry about my credibility. Why don't you worry about yours?

I am not sure if it is really about one's credibility. Some writers predicted what's going wrong with Europe before WWII, but they were dismissed by nitpickers like you who got lost in the woods for trees.

#50,

Dear Ravi Kulkarni:

Just because you can draw similarities between two events in history doesn't mean present has to follow the same pattern.

Absolutely! Yes, there is no reason we need to follow the same pattern. I wish and hope that we don't follow the same pattern. I believe that we can avert such calamities by teaching people the outcomes of our actions.

What's your solution to this problem?

My solution is simple- follow the laws. Follow the system. Even if it pains you, follow the system. If it is cumbersome, become a part of it, convince everyone around you, and then change it [I give an example at the bottom]. But follow the system. Don't override the system.

Set good examples. When given a chance, set a good example. Congress or the Left or the BJP or for that matter many of us do not set good examples. Put trash in the trash can, don't take bribes, follow the traffic rules, don't encroach upon lands when building your homes, don't flout rules, live and let live.

Don't tell me how I should live my life and I won't tell you how to lead yours. Don't measure me by my patriotism and don't measure me by the amount of saffron on my body. Let me be.

Right now, there is no necessity to unify Indians under one banner called Hinduism, or one color of nationalism as defined by the highest flag bearers. We want our local identities, our religious identities, our languages. We don't want to trade them for another.

Keep the state away from our belief systems, and for that, please set examples. And please don't target me based on my identity.

It is easy to be negative and criticize, but is there a way forward?

Yes, there is a way forward. To set right examples at every step!

We had 1984 riots where Sikhs for butchered and massacred.

We should have raised our voices and asked for the justice. We did not raise our voices. We did not protest. As majority, we just shrugged it off. We thought it was one of those 'natural reactions'. Sikhs in India lost faith in Indian Union. It led to Khalistan Movement and thousands were killed.

Now, we have another of those incidents. A government, the state and its apparatus colluded with killers in targeting people of one identity. And yet, we do not raise our voice. We do not protest. Instead, we hail such people as heroes and vote them back to power. Wrong examples!

Such wrong examples lead to wrong results. We will see more Muslims disillusioned and disenchanted. That will lead to more displeasing actions and we continue to go down that spiral and the only exit is a blood bath. I don't want that to happen in India.

It is more productive to talk about how we can prevent India from becoming fascist. The solution lies in an educated and enlightened public.

Yes. For that one has to know what could happen when we go on setting wrong examples. We need to read in our histories what happened after Indira Gandhi's assassination. We need to read how our leaders who were in power came onto streets to encourage and support the killers that targeted people of one identity. We need to read how those events spiraled into a big terrorist movement in this land where thousands of young people died.

We need to read how fascism grew in pre-WWII Europe. How innocuous it seemed to wave one's national flag and salute it and brim with pride. How harmless it sounded to create new theories that proposed how superior the people of that land were. How reasonable it sounded to target one community for all the ills of the society.

Yet, all those simple actions were hijacked by certain people who used it to create greatest tragedy of human history.

I hope your questions were sincere. My answers above are sincere.
Thanks.

Example for Ravi Kulkarni (as promised in #50):

I met someone, an Indian, raised in USA, some kind of boy wonder, who created his first company while in college, took it to a multi-million dollar business, sold it off, went to Business School in a top school, and headed a successful dotcom company as the CEO. All of it before he was 25!

Then he looked towards India. Came to India and settled down here. Joined TRAI (Telecommunications Regulatory Authority of India). I asked him why he chose TRAI. He said he wanted to influence the future of communications in this country. And the best place to start off, according to him, was the governing body which influenced it all. He worked at TRAI for few years influencing and authoring many recommendations and policies. He confessed the pay was not enough even to pay his mobile phone bill.

When you look back, you realize that many great recommendations have come from TRAI in the last few years. It has become a very organized and transparent system. When I was there sitting with a top officer recently, he asked the circular to be put up on the web right away. When the assistant said that he would do it after he sent the copies to other officers, this officer insisted that he should put it on the web first before doing anything else.

Dear Sujai,

Thanks for your replies. I believe you are sincere and this is what we need.

Your example of that person at TRAI was wonderful. There are a lot of such unsung heroes among the bureaucracy and they need encouragement. Like it or not the country is run by babus, not by the politicians as people tend to think. We should all encourage such people. If we enough sincere people in the administration, politicians can't do much. Right now any chief minister (Modi or otherwise) can find an easy replacement if he or she encounters an honest officer who is a hurdle to their agenda.

Bloggers and the media can do a great job here. There have been many such honest people in the administration; Kiran Modi, T N Sheshan, Bangalore's own Sangliana and so forth. It should become fashionable again to be honest. Your prescription that we do the right thing is exactly right.

Regards,

Ravi

Ravi...

One of the primary reason Modi was able to create outstanding development in Gujarat was precisely because removed politicians as middlemen and placed qualified a-political technocrats in the decision-making process. He removed political patronage that was source of greatest inefficiency and corruption in administering development. Politicians have been used to milking money and power by putting themselves and their patrons as chairmans, directors and other influential positions in key entities - Modi scraped such system of patronage. And that is why dissidence within BJP grew because they felt sidelined and not being consulted and not being able to peddle their power and influence. VHP and RSS had same complaints against Modi - they felt bypassed and sidelined as Modi relied on educated and qualified technocracts to set his agenda for development. Modi told them - election does not give you power, it only gives you responsibilities, earning power does not mean you take from the system, power means you give to the system - mind you, these are not mere slogans and empty rhetorics - Modi translated them into action and reality. That is why what congress could not produce as development in 50 years, Modi could produce far more in just 5 years. People of Gujarat could see and feel the development all around them. Congress tried to rebut that Gujaratis have always been enterprising and credit for development belongs to Gujaratis and UPA policies and not Modi. But people can see the differece between caged lion and free lion - they may look the same but the other one can do far more than the caged one. And that is what Modi did - he uncaged the lion within Gujarati enterprenure spirit and chanelled it for development. He could have chanelled the lion towards full throttle communalism if he was such a Sujai's caricature - but he faced the danger signs as soon as he assumed the reins of Gujarat - the Godhra and 2002 riots were meant to distablise his up-start administration - he had just replaced a dissidence ridden Kashubhai administration, and some people miscalculated that strike like Godhra would cripple Modi and break down BJP in Gujarat like earthqauke did to Keshubhai. Modi had never ran a government before, never held an elected office before, was never a politician before - and he was thrust into highest political position of running a hugely inefficient government of a highly developed state and within 2 months, even before he could settle in his chair, Godhra and post-Godhara riots landed on his lap - and just as earthquake saw inept administration that was very slow and haphazard initially but mobilized the greatest relief and rehabilitation effort in the history of any disaster in India - however anti-BJP media was mainly focussed on what was not being done or done too late and how badly it was being done and how much people have suffered - relentless media and its selective focus was successful in wounding Keshubhai administration. Modi administration too faced same hurdles when it faced 2002 riots - inept administration within 24 hours but massive subsequent mobilization that contained the riots in matter of days. Anti-BJP media as usual selectively focused mainly on what was not being done and how badly it was being done and how much people suffered in riots. There were stories of heroism, people helping people, people saving lives, administration pulling all stops to come to the rescue of people and stopping the violence - but none made it into media coverage. Record number of people got killed by police bullets, record number of people were arrested and majority of them were Hindus. There were Hindu refugee camps too as Hindus too had to flee moslem violence. Many Hindus too got raped and killed by Moslems. Widely circulated Gujarati news papers cronicled many such events as they occured - but propaganda in english media outside Gujarat took on life of its own that had no basis in reality - it constructed its own reality by focusing selectively only on what some in administration did or did not do, and what happened to only one community, what happened to only some families - people of Gujarat took such selective and distorted characterization of 2002 events as insulting and malicious - and Modi was able to translate that collective hurt into quest for Gujarati pride. It allowed Modi to take that campaign for Gujarati pride into positive directions - for development of Gujarat. In a way, what modi was able to achieve on development front was precisely because Indian media kept insulting the Gujarat's pride world wide - it helped Gujaratis get organized world-wide behind Modi to develop Gujarat. Modi aptly says, let others throw mud at him, for his lotus blooms even more in mud.

Dear Mr.Sujai, your frankness in writing the article and answering the comments is admirable. Your case of "Majority Not Being Right" is thought provoking. I think this is not the case of majority having some deep routed scorn against the minority. Neither it looks like the minority's failure to revenge the actions of the majority. It looks more like "I Dont Care" attitude of Indians (Why single out Gujarat?). First, we dont understand what is the problem, and why we need to get rid of the problem.We dont even accept that there is a problem, in most of the cases. If there is a law and order problem in any part of the nation, and people there (and elsewhere in the nation) say "I don't care", we lose our confidence in the judiciary and the executive wing which needs to maintain the law and order. In case of India, the general public have already lost their confidence as far as these two bodies are concerned. What ever has happened in Gujarat and elsewhere in this nation is a direct reflection of this loss of confidence. When we analyse the current problems facing us, its deep routed causes have to be analysed even more - which both public and the media seem to continuously and comfortably ignore. What if Congress had come to power instead of BJP? Would the people get the confidence back in the judiciary and law and order mechanisms? As far as I can see, the answer seems to be 'No'. Right now, the first step (in my point of view - please feel free to critisize me if you feel otherwise) is to atleast accept that we have lost our confidence in the mechanisms that are required to run the state/nation efficiently - both the political as well as the executive wings of the nation. This is the first important step as we could proceed to make amends only if we first accept that there is a problem. How we need to solve it comes later, and believe me, the solution portion is very easy when compared to the acceptance portion.

Destination Infinity.

Anamika..

I do not think it is accurate to say partition was state-sponsored but British were to be blamed. British were only care-takers than and worked closely with heir-apparent of both nation-states and British did only what both sides had agreed and consented. Both Congress and Moslem League accepted the partition without providing for any state-sponsored mechanism for protection to their people - what were they thinking? That Hindus and moslems will exchange flowers and celebrate with fire crackers now that both have their own long-fought independent nation-states? That fasting, prayers and speeches will guarantee the safety of people against butchers? Responsibility for safety and welfare of lives due to partition was squarely on the shoulder of those who had agreed to partition India and assumed power over partitioned nation-states - how could they agree to partition a nation before making sure there is mechanism in place to protect lives affected by partition? It amounted to criminally looking the other way and abrogating the responsibility of ensuring safe exodus and protection of people that were on the wrong side of fence for no fault of theirs. That is more than criminal, it is genocidal of epic proportions. We are not talking about few thousand people here - we are talking about millions of people here. Show me how many people were punished for those crimes and how many were held accountable at highest level? Nation-state let them off the hook. That colosal holocuast remain unpunished and unaccountable to victims till date. Compare that to assassination of Gandhi - over 60,000 people were arrested and thrown in jail for that one crime. If Indian nation-state could do that, why not holding those who created Hindu holocaust accountable? If riots can be held accountable at highest level of ideology-bearers and nation-state, why not countless anti-hindu genocides?

On a side footnote unrelated to your comment:

Sindhis, numbering in millions, like kashmiri pandits of recent times, were made permanent refugees in India - thanks to Gujaratis, that Sindhis like Parsis of earlier ethnic exodus by Islamists, were adopted whole-heartedly by Gujaratis as their own and they are now at the forefront of being prosperous Gujaratis. Moslems in Gujarat too are at the forefront of development compared to moslems in rest of India - if they can come out their Jehadi shell, they too can be as prosperous as sindhis and Parsis and become role model of development for rest of moslems in India. And that is what Modi has promised - an inclusive development - but not thru prism of religion - not more Urdu, more reservations, more madrassas, more hajj subsidies, more mosques, more power to mullahs - Moslems will not be offered development because they are moslems - no targeted development for any community - they will get development as Gujaratis, not as moslems. That is a Modi development paradigm that seeks to transcend narrow focus of caste and creed but focuses on development of Gujarat as a whole - Moslems who come forward for development of Gujarat, they would get rewarded, those who don't will be left behind - that is the definition of inclusive development - as simple as that.

The NRIs who are supporting Modi surely do not want a Modi like ideology/agenda on in the countries they are living. They want secular democracy for themselves, but not for those living in Gujarat?

Kumar..

Most NRI Gujaratis are business-minded, development-oriented and against Islamic terrorism and do support such policies in their respective host countries. So they see no contradiction in supporting Modi's agenda.

Gujaratis also have great respect for positive secularism - unlike others, Gujaratis do not see any contradiction between secularism and hindutva - because Hinduism is built on liberal and non-fundamentalist principles and its way of life(Hindutva aka Hindu-ness aka essence of being Hindu) is built around accommodating diversity of pursuits and plurality of practices in every sphere of life - that is why asserting the hegemony of such way of life is treated as non-theocratic, anti-fundamentalist, secular and tolerant and its ire merely directed at the antithesis as it should be. Gujaratis do not see any contradiction there.

Kerty,

>> Most NRI Gujaratis are business-minded, development-oriented and against Islamic terrorism and do support such policies in their respective host countries. So they see no contradiction in supporting Modi's agenda.

But you have not stated the Modi ideology/agenda fully in the above statement. One need not believe in rioting, indulge in propaganda of teaching lessons to non-hindus etc to believe in development?

>> Gujaratis also have great respect for positive secularism - unlike others, Gujaratis do not see any contradiction between secularism and hindutva - because Hinduism is built on liberal and non-fundamentalist principles and its way of life(Hindutva aka Hindu-ness aka essence of being Hindu) is built around accommodating diversity of pursuits and plurality of practices in every sphere of life - that is why asserting the hegemony of such way of life is treated as non-theocratic, anti-fundamentalist, secular and tolerant and its ire merely directed at the antithesis as it should be. Gujaratis do not see any contradiction there.

So, you are saying that there is no difference between secular humanism/democracy and Modi's ideology/agenda/actions?

Kumar..

Election and political process provided both sides a fair opportunity to spell out their ideology/agenda and expose the nature of their adversary's ideology/agenda. Your point of views got fair amount of say in political process. If people did not buy it, than you should re-examine them. Why should people be blamed or feel ashamed if you failed to make a clear and compelling case?

If there is vital differences between secular Humanism and Modi's ideology/agenda, then the onus is on you to highlight them and showcase the merits of secular humanism. You and I can only discuss and present arguments here, but ultimately, it is people at large who judge the merit of Modi's ideology/agenda vs merit of secular humanism. Modi framed his ideology/agenda within democracy and you had the same opportunity to showcase the merit of secular humanism. If secular humanism could not take on Modi's ideology/agenda in a straight democratic contest, may be you have lot more work to do to present a compelling case for secular humanism. Modi calls his hindutva both secular as well as integral humanism and Gujaratis are buying it.

Hitler killed because of RACE NOT religion - otherwise he would have given the Jews an option to convert to Christianity - that is the reason they were looking for people with Jewish Grandmothers.

The Gujarat riot was a religious riot.

Why do people only say Hindu "Hitler", why not also say Hindu "Mao" or Hindu "Stalin" or Hindu "Bin Laden" or Hindu "Mullah Omar" or Hindu "Imam Bukhari" or Hindu "Prophet"?

Is it because Mao and Stalin are the "good guys" in the leftist psec worldview?

Is it because certain "secular" parties in India openly have Mao and Stalin's photos framed on the wall in their party offices? (considering the FACT that Mao and Stalin each killed MILLIONS more people than Hitler)

After all Hitler exterminated "just" 2-3 minorities whereas Stalin exterminated dozens of minorities, it just so happens that the minorities that Stalin exterminated do not have a lot of clout in the world media.

Is it because criticising Bin Laden and Mullah Omar would immediately bring a few fatwas flying your way?

Or would it be "communalistic" to criticise Bin Laden or Mullah Omar or the heads of LeT or JeM? Has our esteemed ManMoorkhji ever criticized ANY Muslim leader past or present EVER? Could someone please provide me with a link?

#67: You raise a very valid point:

Why the heck is Modi compared to Hitler and not Stalin or Mao.. I guess its to make it more dramatic and have a deeper appeal that it deserves.

Stalin and Mao were not focussed, they killed everything in their way, perhaps it was oppression on a massive scale.

Where has Hitler had hate for Jews, as some one pointed, perhaps the race (Race?). Modi has the same charactestics.

Mike

#69.. Mike.. very true.. I hope the same holds for the 9/11 people and the Taliban execution-for-fun crowd

#67,

Tota:

My attempt was not to insult Modi by comparing him with Hitler.

The reason why I chose Hitler and not Mao or Stalin is for obvious reasons. The present Hindutva movement sounds closer to the rise of Nazis than the rise of Communists.

I have no love for Stalin, Mao or Osama. You want to see the Communist angle to this article and hence you raise these objections.

In an article that I wrote Left out in Bengal, I say the following:

Indian Left is quite confusing. I don't think they know where they stand on an issue. When I was going through the streets of Kolkata long ago I saw a statue of Stalin right in the middle of the road. I couldn't believe it. For a while I didn't know what to make of it. Why would somebody put up a statue of a person who killed 10 million of his own people? Do we put up statues of Idi Amin or Pol Pot?

The common themes between the present Hindutva movement and the erstwhile rise of Nazis are the following:

1. Establishing superiority of oneself over others - culturally, intellectually, and historically [which is main theme of Nazism, pronounced in pre-WWII Germany and to certain extent in Japan and Italy, but is not the main theme in Communism. The main theme of Communism is the rise of worker class to topple the privileged, but then to go on and establish another privileged class - which is another story.]
2. Creating an enemy based on identity - religious or racial or national [which is again one of the main features of Nazism, but is not the main theme in Communism. The enemies of Communism are within, mostly the rulers or the privileged class, or the intellectuals. They are not necessarily targeting people of one identity. Stalin killed all kinds of people- his own people, his political opponents, critics, Cossacks, Muslims dissidents, and what not.]
3. Following one person who is idolized above the party or its ideology [Hitler above Nazi Party or Germany itself. Communism usually tries to promote the whole party and not necessarily one idol. Even if there is one idol who dominates for a while, it corrects itself to go back to promoting the party.]

Hope that helps. The similarities that I cited between Modi and Hitler is not with a motive or an agenda- it's only put across an observation.

You are free to introduce a "politically motivated" element to it and dismiss it.

For some reason, the links in the above comment do not work, I hope these links work:

Left out in Bengal

politically motivated

Those links don't work either :-(

Here, I paste them:
http://sujaiblog.blogspot.com/2007/11/left-out-in-bengal.html
http://desicritics.org/2007/10/30/143810.php

You have no idea why people of Gujarat have choose Mr. Modi.

Let me tell you something

1. He does not take money and does not allow to take bribe. (Impossible to find in indian politician)

2. He is improve state so must in last 5 years.

3. State was without any communal fighting in last 5 years. Every year there were multiple fightings in congress raj.

4. Govt employee has to work otherwise they will be fired.

5. investment increase and that is advantage to all the gujarati community including muslims.

6. more jobs in the state

7. lots of development

Sujai #48

All is not lost.

Most of India is still intact and much of the Gujarat is salvagable, had the congress filed the right candidate, Modi probably would not have had the majority.

But the fear of fascism is for real. Modi had so many small chances to say sorry, but he did not. He remains arrogant and that is not good for his own spiritual well being.

Mike

Ravi 59

One of the best statements today. "It should become fashionable again to be honest."

Sujai, thanks for keeping up with the flood, you are doing a great job.

Mike Ghouse

Nishit # 74

Agree he has done a lot of business good, he has earned his respect from the business community, but that is not a complete equation.

I sincerely wish, As a praischit Modi would focus on earning the respect from every one of the 51 Million people. I wouldn't count on it, but I have to hope and hope is the one thing no one can take from the down trodden.

Let the progress stand on all the 4 legs of Gujarat and bring prosperity to Gujaratis without any one left out. He needs to consider saying Michami Dukadam, and restore faith and confidence of people, reach out to them, he would be bigger than life, if he chooses to apologize to all the victims of Gujarat -and start Gujarat on a clean slate.

A mere acknowledgement would be good for his own spirituality and spirit of the people. The bus needs to have all its tires (communities) the air pressure needed to carry the bus forward and ensure a smooth journey. We have to uplift those who are down, fill the tire if it has low air in it. It is in the interest of the community as a whole.

I was reading an article on Zimbabwe, here is an extract (for full article - http://allafrica.com/stories/200712240545.html ) I hope, Modi reads this kind of stuff.

"For a nation to achieve its goals and satisfy its citizens, its various sectors have to commit themselves to extremely high levels of unity, unity to which they are emotionally attached because it is being drawn from or in other words is actually part and parcel of the national will."

"Thus whenever a nation is in crisis, due to internally or externally or both-induced factors, it becomes imperative to go back to the drawing board and read aloud what our values do say. Yes, by consensus we may alter them here and there to suit prevailing conditions and pressing issues at hand but their central message that we should be a united sovereign state, determining our own affairs and working together for the good of the nation are too sacred to be revised and shall (for any nation) remain infallible as long as the concept of nation remains sensible in matters of social organization. The mutual awareness and affirmation of these values should generate the will that unites us in every sector for our national endeavors to succeed."

Mike Ghouse
www.MikeGhouse.net

#74,

Modi may be the most honest and non-corrupt politician available in India. He sure must be pro-development and very active in improving the living conditions of the people of his state. These are very admirable traits and we would like to see more such politicians in India.

Having said that, he comes with a baggage. That baggage is more deleterious to the nation and all his other strengths do not compensate for it.

Let me explain.

People ask why I do not criticize other parties in India. In fact, I do. I criticize whole of India, and that includes Congress, Left and other parties. However, when things go bad with their ideology the outcome is not as bad as with Hindutva forces.

When things go really bad with Congress, it will turn into a very corrupt nation under a dynasty. One of the core elements of Congress is dynastic rule, servitude to that dynasty, and appeasement. When things go really bad with Left in India, all development will come to halt. One of the core elements of Indian Left is anti-rich, anti-West and anti-modernization. But when the extreme forces take over Hindutva vehicle, we will get persecution, targeted killings, robbing of our identities, and in the end millions getting killed. That's because their ideology incorporates hatred as one of the core element. It feeds on this hatred. It keeps increasing this hatred to keep itself running. It is a self-perpetuating machine that keeps propagating and then feeding on that hatred. The exit for that pent up hatred is a blood bath.

Though Modi's other traits are quite admirable, he comes with a very dangerous baggage. He represents the extremism in Hindutva faction.

Professor Sujai at #79,

Excuse me.

When things go really bad with Congress, it will turn into a very corrupt nation under a dynasty. One of the core elements of Congress is dynastic rule, servitude to that dynasty, and appeasement. When things go really bad with Left in India, all development will come to halt. One of the core elements of Indian Left is anti-rich, anti-West and anti-modernization.

But when the extreme forces take over Hindutva vehicle, we will get persecution, targeted killings, robbing of our identities, and in the end millions getting killed. That's because their ideology incorporates hatred as one of the core element.

When things go really bad with Congress, you have 3000 Sikhs killed like in 1984. I think that's a little more serious than the nation turning into a very corrupt one. I guess to butcher those many people, one of the necessary motivating factors is hate.

When things go really bad with the Left, you have Nandigram and Singur. I guess women getting raped, men getting killed and graves being unearthed every now and then is a little more serious than development coming to a halt. I think to rape a woman and to kill a man, one of the necessary motivating factors is hate.

My two bits sir. Thank you :)

Modi is currently yhe best man to lead India. Reading the garbage in this article will make me more of a Modi supporter than i previously was. people like Sujai are the reason why
1. half a million kashmiri pandits are suffering in our country today
2. Incedents like marad happen in our country
3. Taslima is harassed
4. Indian culture is bad mouthed in our country today.

I really am sick and tired of reading hate articles targetted against Modi. All they have resulted in is convince me of modis point of view.

I hope Desicritics improves the quality of articles on this site. Else I am quitting from here.

I am commenting for the first time.I concur with Indian, Desicritics should change, I am sick of reading anti-Hindu articles, if Desicritics goes like this I will boycott this. BYE BYE you DESI ASSHOLES.

Sujai...
Pls don't stop writing these articles. You have to maintian these articles untill next elections or else Modi will fade away.
I guess you need to give some inputs to news channels like ibn-cnn who can embrace your points very much.
Go on...Modi is Hitler....keep writing.

Narendra Modi is not Adolf Hitler

a. He has not openly targetted muslims nor does he expressed his hatred for muslims

b. Unlike Hitler he has not established a policies that discriminate policies

c. Many claim that Modi ensured that his police did not act and therefore he is responsible for it. The fact of the matter is he did everything possible to stop the violence including calling on the army within 36 hours of the Godhra violence. The fact of the matter is that there were many policemen who acted on their own agendas and the size of law enforcement was inadequate to prevent a popular backlash against muslims.

d. Anybody who has followed politics in Gujrat knows fairly well that anti-muslim sentiment was not a predominant component of the 1997 elections. It became an issue only in the context of the Godhra violence. We can argue all day about who cause Godhra but a coach full of Sewaks being killed is too much of a coincidence to be attributed to an accident. No violence can be allowed but there is no evidence at all to suggest that the CM approved of this violence. If it can indeed be proven, please stand up for all Indians like a Brave citizen and file a PIL against Mr. Modi.

e. Unlike Hitler and his massive propaganda by his controlled media, Modi won inspite of a massive campaign against him by the media.

f. Just like the trivial facts that you mentioned, it is also important to note that both Yusuf and Irfan Pathan were rewarded by Mr. Modi for their performance in the twenty 20 cup

g. Lastly but not the least, if what you say is right, things should have deteriorated for muslims in Gujart over the period of time (Just like jews in Germany/ Europe between 1933 and 1945(. The reality is that things haven't deteriorated since 2002. There have been no more large riots of the type of 2002 nor has there been a campaign to kill muslims.

It is therefore in my view completely incorrect to compare Modi with Hitler. My learning from Gujrat is that we have certain problems in society that need to be quickly fixed

a. A large number of unemployed youth (kar sevaks and the murderers at Godhra) who need to be economically engaged so that they donot have time for such nonsense

b. Adequate and professional law enforcement: Our police are supposed to be independent but are not. Invetsigations take their own turn depending on who is doing it and policemen bring their own biases when dealing with citizens

c. Integration: Many segments of muslims have failed to integrate (as have low caste hindus) into the national 'mainstream'. There are many reforms that can be brought about to integrate them.

rgds

Sorry for too many grammatical errors in the previous post

rgds

Abt history repeating itself, how did the author select which history is going to repeat? why not the punjab, kashmir, naga, naxal insurgencies? why not gulag? why not the cultural revolution of the great leap forward or the purge? aren't communists holding more seats than they EVER did and more influential than EVER? did we not see a preview at nandigram?

i'd be concerned too if india were to become a theocracy - but history only shows a muslim theocracy in india, not hindu. history shows that that hinduism handled conflict with buddhism and jainism with relative maturity. why won't that repeat?

Sujai, as always, you cant take criticism. Thanks for reminding me.

Btw, this from one of your posts above:

"We had 1984 riots where Sikhs for butchered and massacred.

We should have raised our voices and asked for the justice. We did not raise our voices. We did not protest. As majority, we just shrugged it off. We thought it was one of those 'natural reactions'. Sikhs in India lost faith in Indian Union. It led to Khalistan Movement and thousands were killed."

Cherry picking again? The Sikh riots did not lead to the Khalistan movement. That started a lot earlier - and yes, funnily enough, with foreign intervention.

Indian2, we a-holes on DC can bid you adieu but I have a feeling your venting is only temporary. We have all opinions, you're free to ignore ones you don't like, or write your own.

Deepti the Dictatorial Thought Police is using the word "we". There's no "we" Deepti -- there's us and you.

Deepti who will selectively censor those whose political views she disagrees with, while giving a full free hand to those whose views she supports, is giving us a lecture on being free to write opinions.

I think the general audience knows how poor your track record and credibility is. So please do preach on, while the rest of us laugh, dear "moderator".

Anindo,
I live in US. but at heart I am an Indian, a Guju Indian. I do not think you should judge us by our mailing address. Any one who judges other based on geography, religion, or last name is considered prejudice. ( http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prejudice )
I know lot of this "Big Boys" in BJP personally, most of them are prejudice. They hated father Wales because he was Christian. They hated Dr Kurien because he was south Indian. During "Anamat Andolan" they hated BCs. They hated Gandhi (The) because he was not prejudice. I know this because I was one of them and I hated all those people who are not "my kind".
Until I came to US and experienced the prejudice first hand against myself, I was thinking just like you.
It is sad when politicians resort to prejudice for power.
"If you are not with me then you are against me." "If you are not my friend then you my enemy."
Why one can not be neutral. Why all Gujaraty Hindus have to follow BJP.
When will we stop the "Gadario Pravah".
True Hindutva is in Inclusion of all man kind. "Vasudhaiv Kutumbakam"

Anamika:

Sujai, as always, you cant take criticism.

Just look at the comments above and see how many people actually support me and see how many people criticize me. Does it look like I can't take criticism? ;-)

[With all your education and exposure, you are almost there. Almost. A shove or a push, and there is a chance you will become wise.]

Sujai, I commented on your piece because I think it could be much better and far more convincing than it is now.
Your response was to the effect that you dont care. Btw, preaching to the converted and calling that support, or getting proModi rants is hardly much by way of discussion/critique.

Odd because most writers spend a lot of time worrying about the credibility of their work because that makes the writing more powerful and convincing. But seems from your comments that you like playing Cassandra instead. Fair enough...so be it.

As for being wise, thankfully I make no such claim or hold such a pretension...

Sorry Chandra,
Narendra Modi is not Adolph Hitler.
Adolf Hitler was Adolph Hitler.
Saddam Hussein was Saddam Hussein.
Slobodan Milošević was Slobodan Milošević.
And
Narendra Modi is Narendra Modi.
All this people are uniq.
For your information anti-muslim sentiment has been always their it did not start with Godhara and it did not start with 1947 partition it has been there since Muslims came to India and started to destroy our tamales and deface statues of our Gods. It was one of the issue in election of 1989 (V P Singh became PM). Advani had his Ram Janmbhumi / Babri Masjeed rath yatra in late 1990.
I wonder when will it stop?

As Chandra rightly pointed out, Modi is no Hitler. He is probably not more of a right winger than Sarkozy who called the Muslim rioters of Paris "scum".

On the other hand, he is certainly one of the ablest CMs of present-day India, and can be compared with Chandrababu Naidu in that regard.

"ablest CMs" LOL

I think it is a case of pot calling a kettle black.

1) There is no evidence what so ever, past or present, to suggest that BJP or Modi are akin to Nazi

2) We have heard such Gobbelian propaganda for over a decade now how BJP means end of secularism, BJP means theocracy, BJP means progrom against minorities, BJP means Nazism, BJP means end of India as we know it. Well, BJP came to power at center and in many states. So BJP certainly had all the opportunities it needed to act its ideology/agenda. If Modi were a Hitler, he had 2/3 majority, virtual mandate in his state and ample excuses to carry out his agenda - he could have exterminated moslems or driven them out from his state. The fact is none of that happened. Yet, these Gobbels shamelessly paddle same discredited propaganda. It can only be called hate-mongering, fear-mongering against Hindutva and Hindu society - such propganda disguises the fact that people who hate hindutva are using Nazi tools to exterminate HIndutva from India.

3)Characterization of events of 2002 riots in media is Gobbelian and has no basis in reality and people of Gujarat has consistantly rejected it. None can be proven in any court of laws. Modi has dared them to hang him if he is guilty - but they opt for propaganda where no burden of proof is required, only spins based on carefully selected and distorted bits and pieces - they can't stand in any court but one can make Gadha out of Gandhi and Gandhi out of Gadha in propaganda.

4) It is anti-BJP Nazis that are using the media like Gobbel. They construct fake realities using selective coverage of events, exclusive focus on certain hindu reactions to cherry-picked events - really a cut and paste job to paint any picture one may like to paint. They have nothing but hate and fear to offer

5) Mullahs cry islam-is-in-danger at the drop of a hat to instill fear in moslems and shore them up under hardliners. Pseudo secularists use the same tactics to create an atmophere of impending doom and fear among minorities so they can shore up their support under their hardline agenda. One can accuse BJP of doing the same to shore up Hindus behind BJP - but BJP has no control over media and merely reacts to actual events while anti-BJP Nazis control media and set the terms of political debate using fiction and fantasy - this article is perfect example.

6) Anti-BJP nazis have given India partition, post-partition holocaust of millions of Hindus, Genocide and ethinic cleansing of lakhs of Hindus from Kashmir, Genocide and ethnic cleansing of millions of Hindus from Bangladesh, countless riots and terrorism in India aimed at Hindus - that is the real face of Nazism. And it is targetted at hindus and their way of life. It is hinduism and its socio cultural institutions that have been targetted in India, it is they who have been targetted for demonization, conversion, extermination, terrorism. That is what drives the nazi-style propagadanda against Hindutva.

In a way, such hate propaganda can only strengthen BJP and Modi. That is what can give BJP its emotive appeal to its base.

At the most, he is "abelest" at manipulating Hindu feelings. Progress of Gujarat is no were to be found in interior villages. It is nothing but persistant hammering of inflammable lies by Modi.
And all the people from Narmada district and Bharuch district should pray to GOD. Because if there is a earth quack same in size of Ahmedabad earth quack takes place near Sardar Sarover those two district will become history.
Not joking Bharuch bay has fault line passing right underneath.
Any one who do not believe me, go look at Bharuch train station Tower is still leaning as a result of earth quack in 1970.
I was very young and I still remember, Train tracks connecting to the Bridge and Bridge itself were separated by 2 meters.

Your post comes across as a very ill-thought and ill-informed hypothesis. By comparing Modi and Hitler, on one hand you are trivializing the holocaust and the plight of Jews.
On the other hand, by calling Modi, Hitler, you are implying that all the Gujaratis who vote for him are "Nazis". Kapil Sibal of Congress was equally ungracious when he commented on Modi's victory saying, "Even Fascists win". How on earth can you have such apathy towards an entire section of Indian population? What happened in 2002 is impardonable, and justice should be delivered. No two thoughts on that. I would accept that he won in 2002 riding on emotions. But then, are Gujarati voters so stupid that they would still allow themselves to be manipulated? If Modi has successfully positioned himself as the champion of Gujarati pride, it's only because all the so called intellectuals have kept on bashing Gujaratis and Gujarati Hindus especially. I would appreciate that you abstain from making such extreme comments in future and be more balanced and fair in your analysis.

Every one,

Each opinion is a valid and I urge every one to consider their opinion as one of the many towards developing an understanding of the issue. Harsh crticism(not the ranting)fine tunes the piece and the idea Sujai has put forth.

Sujai's article needs national attention, we cannot brush away a looming danger, it is better to know about it and plan on averting it. And I hope, like every one else that it does not happen. I have forwarded it to my groups comprising nearly 20000 people.

Those who leave the group do so on their own volition, and is indicative of their intolerance to another piont of view, I hope they learn democracy from these forums.

Please continue to share and explain your point of view. My salute to each one of you.

Hindutva is not Hinduism.
Islamists is not Islam
... and so on.

Criticizing Modi is not criticism of Gujarat, Gujarati, India or Hinduism. It is not even criticizing him in whole, it this fascist aspect of him that is criticized.

Mike Ghouse

Kerty in 95#

"3)Characterization of events of 2002 riots in media is Gobbelian and has no basis in reality and people of Gujarat has consistantly rejected it. None can be proven in any court of laws,."


People of Gujarat have consistently rejected it? What percent of population voted for Modi? Those Gujaratis who did not vote for Modi aren't Gujarati's any more?

Mike

Note to Gujaratis who got upset and offended by my article

Note to Gujaratis who got upset and offended by my article

There is a strong misconception that I need to clear here.

Comparing Modi with Hitler does NOT automatically discredit or disgrace Gujaratis. It does not automatically make them Nazis.

First, many people have made the assumption that my comparison of Modi to Hitler somehow automatically compares Gujaratis with Nazis. That is a far-fetched extrapolation and I do not suggest this anywhere.

Only Nazis did not vote Hitler into power. Only Nazis did not hand over power to Hitler. Many people underestimated his single-focus on solving the Jewish Problem. They were quite happy with other results that he promised to produce- a strong nation, a strong sense of nationhood, pride in nationhood, and the concept of nation-above-all. And many Germans, even those who do not share Nazi mindset have supported and accepted Hitler as their leader.

Alas, he came with a baggage, and that baggage that seemed to satisfy some people, which promised to 'teach a lesson' to these 'traitors and back-stabbers', turned the world into a nightmare. Even those Germans who detested what Hitler did became embroiled in that nightmare- even the nice Germans, even the women and kids, and even those who were not Nazis, they were all hijacked by the Nazi Germans and Hitler.

I do NOT believe that ALL Gujaratis, even those who voted for Modi, agree with Modi's actions that followed Godhra incident. They are only ready to ignore his actions, the way most Indians wanted to ignore what happened in New Delhi in 1984 after Indira Gandhi's assassination. They are ready to turn a blind eye to this particular problem and instead concentrate on many other great things Modi has been able to provide for people of Gujaratis.

Second, I do not assume that all Gujaratis voted for Modi. A good percentage of Gujaratis voted for the opposition, as is the case in any democracy.

Question to Gujaratis

If you are a Gujarati and if you got offended by my comparison, please ask yourself one question- Do you think what Modi did was right, when he stood by and gave free hand to the Hindu leaders who wanted to seek revenge by ensuring that the state administration and the apparatus abetted, aided and sometimes participated in the targeted killings of Gujarati people based on their identity?

If you think he was right, then yes, I do believe that you share some ideologies that coincide with fascists (that still does not qualify you a Nazi). May be, its time you do some introspection, take some history lessons and try to reason what could go wrong in case your vote is hijacked by someone who has this capacity to push this sentiment too far.

If you think he was wrong, then please do spare me, I do not think you are part of the above article.

Mike #100.

Characterization of 2002 riot as massacre, genocide, progrom, holocaust and characterization of Modi as Nero, Hitler, merchant of death were made central poll issue by Congress and media in each and every local and state elections held in Gujarat after 2002 - and in each and every election, voters gave their verdict in favor of Modi. Now you are raising the bar that unless Modi gets unanimous vindication from all Gujarati voters, electoral victory are not sufficient to vindicate the accusations. That means not even clean sweep in election would satisfy you - because no party can get 100% of votes in any election. So if I make a false accusation that Sonia is a whore, she will need to earn 100% votes in her favor to vindicate my accusation - anything less and I can claim not all Indians accept that she is not a whore. Do you see the absurdity of your proposition? In a democracy, electoral process is the only vehicle to hold ideologies and politicians accountable - and that verdict need not gain 100% votes to gain legitimacy. Beyond electoral process, there is no other way to evaluate the claims and allegations of ideological/political nature. One can try judicial process where its verdicts leave little room for doubt or guessing - but its requirement for poof and witness is so rigorous it can't adjudicate ideological or political claims and allegations. Not that it has not been tried in case of Modi.

Entire leftist establishment and its media has been desperate to convict Modi and has left no stone un-turned - even mere perceptions are turned into evidence of modi's conspiracies. Every move and every utterance of Modi is held to highest scrutiny and media glare. So far, nobody has been able to indict Modi. India is not mullah Raj where mere allegations commence the stone-throwing ceremony. A citizen of India is innocent until proven guilty - you prove Modi's guilt and he himself has said he is ready to face the noose if he is found guilty. I don't think anti-modi factions have been able to meet this challenge either. I can say, Modi has won this battle too. So where does that leave people like you who hate Modi like a Jehad? Modi seems to win every battle you throw at him. I suggest you give it up. It is only exposing your own anger, hate and agenda. If Modi is as terrible as you suggest, he can't disguise it for too long and he will invariably slip and fall - and Indian democracy will certainly trap him long before his agenda can go too far. Democracy is an antidote to revolutions and wild political swings - it is a moderating force and forces pragmatism as a matter of course. It does not mean you or he will get their way - but there is a hope for everybody at the end of a tunnel. So have a faith in democracy and people of India.

Sujai need not have to apologize to anybody for
his candid comparison of Modi with Hitler.

"to err is human but to fogive is divine" Modi
might have clean corruption-free resume. As Mike
Ghouse has mentioned earlier, Mr. Modi has never
apologized for his involment, whether directly
or indirectly with the carnage in Gujarat. Indeed that is real human?

Now we draw the line, whether the leader should have integrity and character or simply a corrupt
free solid leadership! The people of Germany
found a great charismatic leader in Hitler and followed him blindly: and Sujai's observation is
formulated in the same pattern. Those who can't
read the writing on the wall, Sujai; let them be
alone. You have taken more than enough of the
trash from a few emotionally charged people.

Kerty 103

Where did you come up with 200 words of material against this? where did the 100% approval or disapproval come from?

All I asked was this:

"People of Gujarat have consistently rejected it? What percent of population voted for Modi? Those Gujaratis who did not vote for Modi aren't Gujarati's any more?"

Mike

AS..

Has Bush apologized for WMD fraud, war on Iraq? Have communists apologized for progroms and Gulags? Has Pope apologized for its complicity in Nazi holocaust? Has christianity apologized for inflicting guilt on jews? Has Islamists apologized for all the vandalism and massacres in India? Has congress apologized for Partition and post-partition holocaust? Have capitalists apologized for colonial slavery? Have missionaries apologized to natives? The list is endless. Rule of thumb is - nobody apologizes when they are at the pinnacle of their power - only when they are not at the pinnacle of their power and issue in question has lost its relevance that apologies get tendered. USA apologized to Japanese Americans for putting them in concentration camps only after its mission was safely accomplished and nothing could be lost by offering apologies. USA offered apologies for slavery only after slavery became redundant to its economy. Pope offered its apologies for Holocaust only after Nazism was no longer relevant in Germany. I am sure US administration will offer its apologies to Iraq after its mission in Iraq is accomplished and nothing remains that can jeopardise its interests in Iraq - a safe time to confess sins and move on without paying any price.

So to expect apologies from Modi is premature. Plus, if Modi thinks he has done his best under the circumstances and done nothing wrong - no apologies will ever be forthcoming. To expect apologies for crimes one never committed, is not human, it is outright arrogant. May be when Hindus and Moslems reconcile their issues, establish mutual goodwill, it might eventually lead to confessionals of their respective sins. But I don't see that happening in my life time.

I have this great fear - that Sonia has been planted by pope to exterminate hinduism from India and convert hindus to christianity. There is already wide-spread conversion progrom going on but it has gained momentum after Sonia has captured a major political party of India. Sonia's mission is to make sure Indian state can not take care of needs of all people so that christian missionaries can take advantage of human condition in India and expand its christian power in India. Pope feels that once India is christened, it can set the stage for world conquest by christianity. Sonia's minions have already started terrorizing the cultural and social institutions of hindus. Sonia's strategy is to appease Islamists who can finish off hindu hardliners, and missionaries to convert the rest. Once Hindus are exterminated from India, christians can subdue Islamists, Iraq and Afghanistan style. We see the patterns already shaping up in the theater of India and world stage. We need Sujai to write candid expose of this imminent danger and educate the people. AS Methews, you can write the footnote giving moral support to Sujai against expected criticisms. I too promise that I will do my best and fill in the blanks. #2 on the list after Modi-Nazism, this is what all Indians should be worried about. After all, eternal vigilance is the price of democracy, or should I say fear and hate mongering?

Kerty #106

Thanks for the humor!

"I have this great fear - that Sonia has been planted by pope to exterminate hinduism from India and convert hindus to christianity."

My neigbhor beat up the dog, so I will too... is that what you are saying here?

"Iraq? Have communists apologized for progroms and Gulags? Has Pope apologized for its complicity in Nazi holocaust? Has christianity apologized for inflicting guilt on jews? "

Mike

Dear Sir,
Thanks a lot "Kerty" for your candid analysis. The Christian Evangelists will not rest unless they convert every body to their religion. They will perpetrate all kinds of logic and underwrite any body who rubbishes Indianess.
They have institutionalised the activity of hatred towards "Bharath and its way of life"
They will go to any extent to destroy the way of life in every country as they did in Africa, Australia, South America. You name it where the Christians have entered they have destroyed the native culture of that area in the name of "Salvation"
They have partly destroyed India by seperating Nagaland and Mizoram by converting the people and asking them to seperate from India.
They will continue to do it. One of their favourite methods is "Education"! and what is that education. The Education they import from Christian ruled countries and then they have their already "educated supporters" in every country talking their heads off to destroy the native way of life. They will not brook any interference and if it done they will bandy words like holocaust! Pogroms! Hitler! etc.
Whether Modi is a Hitler or not I do not know but as a native Indian if he is going to help me in saving my native way of life, whether any body else likes it or not I like it,my vote goes to him and I hope he is the Kalki avatar as described in Indian sayings come to destroy both the groups which want to send the people born in India to a place known as heaven!
regards,
vck

Evil in any form perpetrated by any human beings
is not right and can't be justified. All of them are coldhearted people, none of them will
say an apology. That does't give the right to
another person to repeat the same, and other
people justify it. All of them had their short-lived heyday and then a big payday.

Mr. V.C. Krishnan. I am glad that you admit that
the Christians bring education. As you are well aware of the fact that most of the Indian leaders
got their education in schools and colleges where
Christian missionaries have started. Education
will liberate the masses, and ignorance is the biggest deterrent in human liberation and social
uplift. So, when those people get educated, their thinking will be expanded and they make their own choice about many personal issues including religion.

Sujai,
Mein Kampf has been a best seller for years in Turdia far ahead of "Letters to Penthouse". I know this first hand (more right foot actually) having patronised footpath book sellers accross the length, breadth and filth of our great nation. There does seem to be a secret admiration for Hitler in Turdia. So, this comparision to Hitler is only adding to his stature as an upcoming statesman with national appeal. Next thing you know, BJP/VHP/etc are selling the next pre-election mini-genocide "Based on proven German* Technology for cleaner, faster burning minorities". Surely this is not your intention.

R
Fort Wayne


* Typo - should be Nazi

V. C. Krishnan - Frankly, most Hindu Indians would tolerate Christian fundamentalism compared with Islamic. The problems with the NE have to do with more than religion. It is racial and cultural differences predominantly. Even without missionaries, the region would still have problems. Remember the cry for Gorkhaland a couple of decades ago? They were Hindus of Nepali descent, but because they look different and have a different culture compared to the Bengalis, they wanted a separate entity.

But frankly, if the Christian missionaries could target Muslims instead of Hindus, that would be doing us a great favour.

Modi is supposed to have given a "sense of identity" to the hindus - As if everyone is reeling under a crisis of identity and needed the help of rioters and rapists to pop-up a sense of identity.

Ledzius..

Why should racial or cultural differences be a cause for separatism? There are vast cultural differences across India and they seem to be at ease with Indian nation-state. There are racial differences too among north and south. So the racial, cultural or religious differences can not be a justification for militant separatism. The primary difference in NE and Kashmir with rest of India is religion of the majority there - it is different from religion of the majority in India. In NE, it is not just Bengalis, the violence is aimed at tribals who have not converted.

In case of Nepal, the primary cause for not joining India was that it did not want to give up its Hindu monarchy that was traditionally held in very high reverence by Nepal and it also distrusted Indian secular nation-state that was deemed too hostile to any notion of Hindu nation-state. It took china-backed maoists, Indian backed communists, Indian secularists, Indian nation-state and 50+ years of relentless subversions to destabilize Nepal's monarchy.

AS Mathew: As you are well aware of the fact that most of the Indian leaders
got their education in schools and colleges where
Christian missionaries have started


Chandra: Now we know why they are so incompetent :-)

Dear Sujai,

Thanks for the entertainment. Modi is Hitler and his voters, Gujaratis like me, are Nazis or fascists.But there is nothing original in what you say.I have heard the same comparison made a million times before.

My response to all this, like that of majority of other Gujaratis, is simple. To wait for the next election. To line up outside the polling booths and vote for Narendra Modi. We have done that twice already. Will continue doing the same long into the foreseeable duture.

We Gujaratis are big believers in the democratic process, you know.

Reply to comment#88:

Deepti with her vindictive fascist baton is trawling the grounds. Any other tricks you wanna pull out of your monkey hat Mr Sanjay?

When you find yourself on the side of majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
- Mark Twain

Kudos to Sujai for the thoughtful article.

Who says Modi administration is "not corrupt"
Take your time and find out what is the salary of Police Officers in your local area.
Multiply that by 10 (for last 10 years) now fin out what was their net worth (property)10 years ago and what is it now. Lavish life style and foreign trips are extras.
Inspectors from sohrabuddin case have built houses like palace.
Corruption also comes in form of "Sagavad"
Modi has appointed many of his "not so qualified" friends in high positions like vice chancellor of univercitie. And most of them are non-Gujarati (RSS) people.

Amit..

I have a close Christian friend who is under-secretary in Finance ministry in Gujarat who deals with Modi on Daily basis. Last month, he visited USA (in his personal capacity) and stayed with me for a month and we had a lot of discussion on Modi and development in Gujarat. Here is what he wrote to me after he returned to Gandhinagar last week.

"Development of the State and the nation are attached to my heart, though as a bureaucrat we are very poorly paid. After serving the Government for almost twenty five years, I am still hand to mouth. The purpose of my trip to USA was well known to you. I financed the trip through a loan. I am paying fees of my daughter through a bank loan. I am still burdened with a debt for a house which I built in gandhinagar. Why I am writing all these? Just to show you the ground realities that if a class I officer of my rank is in such a pitiable position, what would be the state of affairs of the ordinary people of the state
and nation? And still, we the bureaucrats of the
State are committed, dedicated and faithfully serving for the development of the State. Behind the qualitative change in Gujarat which is now visible lies commitment, dedication and solidarity of millions of people. But if the aspirations are not fulfilled, people would now loose patience sooner than later. There is tremendous responsibility on the new Government. It has to show to the whole nation the vision, the direction, the policies and the roadmap which is required to be followed for the development of the nation and thereby of the people. NRIs have played important role in the development of Gujarat and in the qualitative change which was necessiated. I look forward to you to support and supplement the efforts in this direction. I had real great time of my life with you. And would never ever forget the same. I don't have the capacity to repay your debts but I would try to be a more good friend."

As an agnostic.Hinduism, christianity, islam, buddhism have all got the ways to lead a life and all deal with alot of issues whether family, community, society, or an entire country. And all these religions have only one difference and its the GOD, but the teachings all provide individuals to lead a good life and it deals according to the region in terms of people, society, and the land of where each of these religions originated. So christianity alone does not consist of teachings that provide coneversion. Even islam and buddhism allows conversion, and those religions publish numerous books, articles, have many organizations that support and welcome any individual if they are interested in their religion. Now, massacaring different groups of people from diff. religions, based solely on conversion is not right. When the conversion provides false information and does not give any individual regardless of caste, freedom to choose to become a christian, muslim, buddhist, or hindu, that organization is just using people for business sake and preaching the wrong teaching by not allowing freedom of choice. Those organizations should be banned and certain rules for each state can not allow these type of organizations. Now, when conversion does take place and it does benefit the people according to each individuals/communities choice and point of view, then there is no problem. There should be proper law and order, and provide a fair trial of judging these conversion organizations to ban them or allow them under certain circumstances. Moreover, if conversion is not allowed for all the religions in a certain state, government should enforce the law and make it clear and organizations of conversion should just leave and not force themselves, b/c that will only reap negativities between both the missionaries of any religion and the government. But just destroying just on the base of "hating" other religion despite being a native is wrong even according to all religions. There are communites who do welcome these conversions and some that don't,but people doing this just to stir hatred between groups of religions is just wrong.

Completely aside from the religions, indians who claim to be proud of themselves and think any religion other than hinduism is destroying their nativity has limited understanding even of their own native religion who introduced the worst scenario, the caste system.While india and its states proclaim they are now the fastest growing economy and industralizing their states, still there are people in rural areas who has complete lack of opportunities mostly beacause they are still living under the caste rule, and poverty which is nationwide regardless of caste&religion.

Anitha..

1) You make sound like all religions are same, and therefore conversions is no big deal. Like ideologies, religions too shape contrasting realities and way of life which can be source of conflicts. And they are source of conflicts.

2) You make it sound like conversion is a matter of individual choice and nobody else's business. But other people and nations do pay heavy price for conversions. World is littered with nations that got wiped out because of conversions, nations that got enslaved because of conversions, nations that are engulfed in civil wars because of conversions, nations that are torn apart due to terrorism and separatism because of conversions, nations that are turned into despotic dictatorships or colonies due to conversions. Both people and nations have vested interest in banning conversions that can disturb the harmony and way of life of people and nation.

3) You make it sound like all religions are involved in conversions and therefore no qualitative judgment should be made about conversions. That is not true. Not all religions are prosleytizing religions and not all conversions threaten way of life or cultural ethos i.e When Hindu converts to Budhism, or jain converts to Sikhism.

4) Caste system is poor justification for conversion. Caste system is incompatible with current ideologies and modern statecraft, and it is such mismatch and transition that has made caste system to be source of insecurities and conflicts. To its credit, it is caste system that allowed christians, Moslems, Jews and Parsis to survive in India for centuries without needing to be assimilated. It is caste system that generated professional specializations that made India envy of world. It is caste system that placed economic security of people on auto-pilot so society could focus on development of highly developed spiritual, cultural and civilizational pursuits. Caste system does stand disenfranchised in India, but functions and roles vacated from caste system have not been fully absorbed by ideologies that have taken over India - and that is what has created abject human condition in India, though they are visible inside caste structures. To prey on such chaos for harvesting conversions is opportunistic and exploitative.

5) To prevent conversions from being perceived as extension of religious war or hostile agenda, there has to be a solid platform of mutual respect and goodwill established among such religions. When conversions take place among hindu, budhist, jain or sikh, hardly any eyebrows get raised because they have worked togather for centuries to develop mutual respect and goodwill. Christians and Moslems have to work towards building similar platform in India. Conversions is not a way to go about it.

6) As usual, media seems to be focussed exclusively on Hindu reaction to missionaries while Bodily attack on a swami by missionaries that triggered the subsequent events are played down. Next, it would claim swami was attacked for harassing a christian woman. India media is so predictable.

kerty: "You make it sound like conversion is a matter of individual choice and nobody else's business. But other people and nations do pay heavy price for conversions"

It is not clear what you are trying to say. The choice of religious belief is a right of every human being. Do you disagree?

kerty: "You make it sound like all religions are involved in conversions and therefore no qualitative judgment should be made about conversions"

When it is the individual right of a person to choose religion, where is the question of a qualitative judgement?

kerty: "To prevent conversions from being perceived as extension of religious war or hostile agenda .."

There will always be some communal trouble makers and fundamentalists who cannot accept the human rights of others.

kerty: "As usual, media seems to be focussed exclusively on Hindu reaction to missionaries while Bodily attack on a swami by missionaries that triggered the subsequent events are played down"

So if some muslims attack a religious leader, mosques should be brought down and if some hindus attack some leader, temples should be brought down etc? VHP just needs some excuse and an excuse can be easily created.

Kerty.
Coversion is a choice of an individual and if others don't accept it, they are denying the freedom of choice and personal rights of each citizen. The reason for why the people&nations pays a price in the name of conversion, is that they infuse religion with politics, undermining liberties for each of these nations.

"Both people and nations have vested interest in banning conversions that can disturb the harmony and way of life of people and nation".
-The harmony&way of life of people&nation are already disturbed w/in their own politics and government rule, banning/not banning conversion will not decrease people&nations way of life.

"Caste system is poor justification for conversion".
-Regardless of religion, while india is moving forward in terms of industalization&economy, there are groups of people who are still using the plough and opportunities are not presented to them in terms of providing jobs, education, and health care even from the government itself.

"Caste system is incompatible with current ideologies and modern statecraft, and it is such mismatch and transition that has made caste system to be source of insecurities and conflicts".
-Caste system and the people suffering from it is invisible and dead in the first place among their own society, then how can the system be incompatible or compatible w/current ideologies...Caste system, before the colonization by europeans and regardless of current ideologies&modern statecraft, is already a source of insecurites&conflicts in itself.

"When conversions take place among hindu, budhist, jain or sikh, hardly any eyebrows get raised because they have worked togather for centuries to develop mutual respect and goodwill. Christians and Moslems have to work towards building similar platform in India. Conversions is not a way to go about it"
-I agree with the last two sentences. But,how can xtians-/muslims work towards what your saying, when in the first place they are not provided the rights to lead their own lives, regardless of conversion. As according to extremists in india, xtianity&islam as a religion itself(not people,missionaries,etc..) are a threat to their society from the beginning.

"Hindu reaction to missionaries while Bodily attack on a swami by missionaries that triggered the subsequent events are played down"
-There maybe more events b/f missionaries attacked the swami that could possibly trigger the following events, either xtians attack on hindus or vice versa over a period of time.

Overall, i agree with you on half of the points discussed in your response.

Meenaxshi..

I realized this is a wrong thread to discuss conversions. There is already a new thread about conversion related violence in Orissa. Post your comments there if you like to discuss it further.

Kerty,
Your answer is wage; did you do the research on corruption? I am sure you will find many (too many) individuals on defensive side. I believe it is still very small percentage of population.
To say that class one officials are not paid well enough, not a justification for corruption. The largest form of corruption in Gujarat is favoritism. If one knows a right, one can get judge to change his decision. Many judges owe favor to politicians.
I have noticed one change in corruption in Gujarat; now corruption is limited to high level officers and is monopoly of BJP.
Look around you will find it.

Amit..

The point of my post was that there are people out there who are not corrupt in spite of being paid poorly and being in position of power.

Modi was able to accelerate development because he cut out system of political patronage that was main source of inefficiency and corruption - main reason BJP dissidents were unhappy and called him dictator because they could not paddle influence by acting as power-brokers and middlemen - Modi bypassed them and relied on apolitical qualified technocrats and bureacrats to implement development. On this point, even media that is usually hostile to Modi agrees that Modi has provided corruption free, clean and efficient administration.

In Gujarat like any where else in India, corruption can be endemic. What separates one administration from another administration is the resolve it shows against corruption. When congress promised to waive the hefty fines levied by Modi for electricity theft by farmers, Modi said he would bring electricity to every village but people have to pay for it, no electricity theft will be tolerated and no fines will be waived - at stakes were votes of large block of farmers in a critical election for Modi but Modi took a principled stand against cheating. Modi has made himself accessible over internet and anybody can complain to him about corruption or inefficiency at any level of Government - that has a chilling effect in the rank of bureacrats and government employees. If you find any instance of corruption, I suggest you bring it to Modi's attention by sending a direct email to him - Modi actually reads them - that is what friend of mine, whose I email I posted here, tells me.

In Gujarat like any where else, corruption can be endemic. What separates one administration from another administration is stand it takes against corruption.

Kerty, you have quite an imagination. re: your "fear" appended below:

"I have this great fear - that Sonia has been planted by pope to exterminate hinduism from India and convert hindus to christianity. There is already wide-spread conversion progrom going on but it has gained momentum after Sonia has captured a major political party of India. Sonia's mission is to make sure Indian state can not take care of needs of all people so that christian missionaries can take advantage of human condition in India and expand its christian power in India. Pope feels that once India is christened, it can set the stage for world conquest by christianity. Sonia's minions have already started terrorizing the cultural and social institutions of hindus. Sonia's strategy is to appease Islamists who can finish off hindu hardliners, and missionaries to convert the rest. Once Hindus are exterminated from India, christians can subdue Islamists, Iraq and Afghanistan style. We see the patterns already shaping up in the theater of India and world stage. We need Sujai to write candid expose of this imminent danger and educate the people. AS Methews, you can write the footnote giving moral support to Sujai against expected criticisms. I too promise that I will do my best and fill in the blanks. #2 on the list after Modi-Nazism, this is what all Indians should be worried about. After all, eternal vigilance is the price of democracy, or should I say fear and hate mongering?"

Kerty,
Your reply is well "designed" but far from facts.
I have asked any one interested to do the research. And one will come with conclusion that corruption in Gujarat is now monopolized by BJP.
And on your view about hindutva; A Hindu must follow basic Hindu principals, "Ahinmsa" is most important one. I have not seen BJP ever preaching "Ahinmsa" or peace. Yes I know Shri Krishna him self asked Arjuna for Yudhdha. But that was in Yudhdh Bhumi. Evan in those days Yudhdha was limited to Yudhdh Bhumi. No one from Pandavs ever killed innocent people.
But Modi took Yudhdha in streets. He ought to ashamed of him self, calling him self a Hindu and comparing him self to Shri Krishna.

Amit..

May be BJP is a corrupt party, and may be it has cornered corruption in Gujarat. You claim to have knowledge that media has not shared with people of Gujarat. I can't understand why you did not make it public during elections - media was almost clutching at the straws to puncture Modi's claims, and it would have loved to run with your findings. And if there is any validity in your findings, it would have made a big difference in elections. Do you know congress lost about 23 seats for less than 5000 votes - so you never know - you could have singlehandedly defeated BJP in Gujarat by creating just a minor voter swing by puncturing Modi's corruption-free image - any way, you have 5 more years to expose the corruption in Gujarat and I suggest the most effective way is to detail the instances in Media rather than making blanket allegations that so and so is corrupt.

Your take on 'Ahinsha' or Hindu principles or Mahabharata is not be shared by all Hindus. Ahinsa is grossly overrated and people of all stripes have recognized its practical limits in conflict resolution. There are no designated areas for Yuddh Bhumi in modern times just as Adhrama can not be exclusively confined to Raskhashas in modern era. Hindus have to take their fight anywhere they are required to take it, and fight it with whatever means that are needed to fight it. Those who oppose Hinduism certainly do. Politics is a war by other means, and everything is said to be fair in love and politics - politics is an art of possible - and whatever one can get away with it is a fair game in politics. All political parties play by such play book, and BJP would be a fool not to.

In stead of trying to convince people about sins of Modi, had you concentrated on convincing people about why they would be better off with congress by showcasing the virtues of Congress, less people would have voted for Modi. Election is not always about picking the best person or party, it is about picking that which is the least worst.

Kerty,
I am sorry to say this but, it only becomes worthy if many of us do this research our self. Look around and you will find it. In many case people keep blind eyes.
Some Hints for people researching:
- Look at political postings that Modi has done.
VC's of universities.
- Where that PI was 10 years ago and were he is now.
Your quote: "Your take on 'Ahinsha' or Hindu principles or Mahabharata is not be shared by all Hindus."
Well now you are talking like you have "Ijara" on Hinduism. This is what's wrong with today's politics world wide.
Bush in USA says if you are not with us you are against US. Christians are told in church(US) how to vote in election,( implying if you do not vote with church you are not good Christian)
And Muslim extremists in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan are controlling their people sentiment on fake religious values.
If one truly believes in GOD then he / she must also respect his teaching, mainly love and compassion for all. There is no Hindu value in supporting killing of innocent people and destructions of property, especially in poor country.
Often times politicians write off this kind of things as collateral damage. But I believe in love and compassion for all, regardless of their identity.
May be "politics is an art of possible" but human life is not politics.
One day I hope we in India, will see "vasudhaiv kutumbakam".

Kerty...
Are
you saying that killing of innocent people is OK by
saying this:"Ahinsa is grossly overrated and people of all stripes have
recognized its practical limits in conflict resolution. There are no designated
areas for Yuddh Bhumi in modern times just as Adhrama can not be exclusively
confined to Raskhashas in modern era. Hindus have to take their fight anywhere
they are required to take it, and fight it with whatever means that are needed to fight
it."

JayP..

I don't know why it is shocking to you that conflicts do occur and that people do fail to resolve them peacefully and that innocent people do die in conflicts. Like you, I would also love to live in a world where there are no conflicts, no need for violence, and nobody dies needlessly. But shit happens and you have to deal with it - sam, dam, dand and Bhed - you have to use whatever that would work. It is when people do not fight back evil that Adharma gets empowered and spreads where ever people offer another cheek. Offering the other cheek or living in a fool's paradise do not work for Dharma - that is escapism from real world and cowrdice rather than confronting the source of Adharma. If offering the other cheek is your religion, I recommend that you offer only yours.

So you are saying that Godhra riots were Modi's answer to Sabarmati Express accident?

Amit

A political administration is entitled to bring its own team to implement its election manifesto and programmes. So BJP will naturally favor their own party people to man key positions to administer their programmes, just as congress or any other party would. That is called political patronage and that is perfectly legitimate where it is not expressly outlawed. Corruption is where procedures and laws are circumvented for monetary gains or at the expense of public good.

Both people and political parties need a will to fight corruption - but what passes as public will or political will is nothing more than self-serving holier-than-thou righteousness - what everybody else does is corruption but what I do is not corruption. BJP did try to build an anti-corruption political platform to mobilize public opinion and create political will to fight corruption - but when its own people in NDA were caught by Tehlka sting, their anti-corruption plank collepsed and the issue quietly disappeared from political arena. Had people seen the larger impact of Tehlka sting for what it was - a sabotage of anti-corruption political will, may be nation would have made lot more progress fighting corruption and political process would still be judging political parties based on their track record on corruption. If you shoot down the very political party that dares to fight against corruption, no progress can ever be made against corruption.

I did not claim that I have 'ijara' on Hinduism. You spelled out your litmus test to be a hindu and what are basic principles of Hinduism. I disagreed and gave my reasons why.

Since you say you believe in love and respect for all, irrespective of identity, I would expect that you would extend the same to those who (violently)disagree with you, including Modi.

Kerty wrote:

"Why should racial or cultural differences be a cause for separatism? There are vast cultural differences across India and they seem to be at ease with Indian nation-state. There are racial differences too among north and south. So the racial, cultural or religious differences can not be a justification for militant separatism. The primary difference in NE and Kashmir with rest of India is religion of the majority there - it is different from religion of the majority in India. In NE, it is not just Bengalis, the violence is aimed at tribals who have not converted."

So I guess you have not heard of Tamil separatism in the past (not in Sri Lanka, but in India), Manipur separatism in the past. Were they from a different religion or were they Muslim jehadis in disguise? And is the ongoing conflict and sepratism in Sri Lanka fuelled by Muslim jehadis? Or are facts mere taxis that can be driven to any destination my fantasy dictates? As long as you do not criticise hate on an equal opportunity basis you will perhaps continue to talk to a hall of mirrors. And no, I don't intend to condone the jehadis, who indeed, like other merchants of hatred and bloodshed, are the scum of the earth no less. But why should one rationalise and justify hate and venom on the spurious reasoning that somebody else is forcing them to be like this?

Ravi Kulkarni # 37:

"It is not too late for India. I disagree that Gujarat/Modi phenomenon is a trend that will envelop all of India and we will see a rise of hindu nationalism à la nazi Germany. We have a much better institutions today and globalization will prevent any major destabilizing trend. Indian judiciary at the highest levels and the media is relatively free and independent for that to occur.

Instead we should concentrate on why extremists (of one form or the other) keep coming to power in India. The following come to mind:

- Education for all. Too many poor people are illiterate. Our highest priority should be to provide secular education to all.

- Lopsided development. We have ignored many states and within states, many reasons far too long and pampered a few. We need to change that.

- Uniform civil code. All are Indians first and they need to respect the laws of the land. No special privileges to anyone just because they belong to a particular community.

- Better courts. Our courts are notoriously slow and corrupt (at lower levels). We should put more resources in law enforcement and justice."

On the mark for sure! Ravi Kulkarni, may your tribe increase and overwhelm (non-aggressively of course) the minority of hate-mongers that mobilize passions for their own ends.

Hari wrote:

"Gujaratis have been traditionally vegetarian while Germans are not. Modi being a vegetarian is not something weird or Hitler like. Hitler becoming vegetarian is weird."

Sorry Hari, but even a random google search will confirm the fact that almost all the Nazis were not just vegetarians but quite uncompromising vegetarians. Hitler was indeed a vegetarian for much of his life although he did eat meat once in a while. Here is a Wikiedia entry on this issue:

"Some of Adolf Hitler's biographers assert that he was a vegetarian from 1931 until his death in 1945. They believe that Hitler's diet was influenced by essays of composer Richard Wagner which promoted vegetarianism. When Hitler was 22 years old and living in Vienna, he first experimented with a vegetarian diet..."

Most standard books about the Nazis talk about this. What this has to do with comparing Modi with Hitler is anybody's guess!It seems to be an inverse logic of some fundmentalist muslims claiming that because Hindus are vegetarians, they are "sissies" since, in this inverted logic, eating meat truly makes one a macho man! Once again, propogation of stereotypes, contempt for others who are not quite like us is an equal opportunity enterprise that we cannot escape until we realize that in this era of globalization, for better or for worse, we are in it together and we will sink or swim together. For sure we will sink if we continue with the justifications for hatred and hate-mongering. This applies to all so-called communites or people who claim to speak for such mythical communities.

More on Nazis and Hitler as vegetarians: (note, Hitler wavered, did eat meat sometimes, but defended vegetarianism all the time. I am a strict vegetarian (for health and environmental, rather than religious reasons), I cannot understand the claim that vegetarianism was anethama to blood-thirsty Nazis or that consumption of vegetables makes one more peace-loving etc. etc.:

"Goebbels said, famously, 'The only real friend one has in the end is the dog. . .The more I get to know the human species, the more I care for my Benno.' Goebbels also agreed with Hitler that 'meat eating is a perversion in our human nature,' and that Christianity was a 'symptom of decay', since it did not urge vegetarianism."

at the end of the day what does it matter what Hitler ate or did not eat. the man was a megalomaniacal mass murderer. so he spared some chickens.... who the hell cares, really?

I am all for people choosing their diet and being happy with it, but I am just as against proselytizing about this as I am against proselytizing about religion.

smallsquirrel (nice name there!), I absolutely agree with you. i guess i was simply going hysterical about Hari's claim that:

"Hitler becoming vegetarian is weird."

Well, it is not. Here are some quotes from the Fuhrer himself:

"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
- Adolf Hitler. November 11, 1941. Section 66, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"If I offer a child the choice between a pear and a piece of meat, he'll quickly choose the pear. That's his atavistic instinct speaking."
- Adolf Hitler. December 28, 1941. Section 81, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"The only thing of which I shall be incapable is to share the sheiks' mutton with them. I'm a vegetarian, and they must spare me from their meat."
- Adolf Hitler. January 12, 1942. Section 105, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"At the time when I ate meat, I used to sweat a lot. I used to drink four pots of beer and six bottles of water during a meeting. ・When I became a vegetarian, a mouthful of water was enough."
- Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"When you offer a child the choice of a piece of meat, an apple, or a cake, it's never the meat that he chooses. There's an ancestral instinct there."
- Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"One has only to keep one's eyes open to notice what an extraordinary antipathy young children have to meat."
- Adolf Hitler. April 25, 1942. Section 198, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"When I later gave up eating meat, I immediately began to perspire much less, and within a fortnight to perspire hardly at all. My thirst, too, decreased considerably, and an occasional sip of water was all I required. Vegetarian diet, therefore, has some obvious advantages."
- Adolf Hitler. July 8, 1942. Section 256, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"I am no admirer of the poacher, particularly as I am a vegetarian."
- Adolf Hitler. August 20, 1942. Section 293, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

Source: HITLER'S TABLE TALK: 1941-1944. Enigma Books. Available at Amazon and at Barnes And Noble.


Smallsquirrel (great nick!!_ Vegetarianism, non-vegetarianism or humanitarianism (eating humans??!!) has no relevance whatsovever in this discussion. But, Hari made a strong claim that Hitler and the Nazis were NOT vegetarians..nothing like a dose of empirical realities to knock off smug delusions...

commonsense:

Hitler had a strong need to feel superior and I think his vegetarianism was a symptom of that. (note: I do not feel that way about ALL vegetarians!I am married to one!) I think he simply wanted to be different and his feelings about meat made him feel like he was some kind of innovator.

I think that is really all it was on his part, considering that meat at that time was a hallmark of being rich and having access to these kinds of things. let us not forget that half the reason why Hitler gained power was because Germany was in bad bad shape after WWI and people were starving. So, maybe this was his play to make people feel better about not having access to meat.

anyway, yeah, he was an ardent vegetarian according to his propaganda.

The greatness of this man is the more you (hype and) bash the more powerful he is becoming.
I guess, forget Congress even Media is clueless how to counter him.
Not sure what strategy he uses after 5 years.But I am sure people who write these articles and comment against him are just falling into his set-up. As long these people are active and barking(sorry for this word, but this is nessasary to give good picture of what people, media, etc are doing to Modi) then Modi is safe.

I always say/ask, instead of targeting him....people shd start thinking why people are for him. Not only in Gujarat...he is great Hero even in edjucated, high-earninig Hindus?

People are seeing the result but not the cause.

razor... very good point. in order to understand hitler and how what he did was possible we must understand post WWI Germany and what conditions led to the climate that made his rise to power possible. In the same way, we should look at why Gujarat seems to think Modi is right for them, and what conditions have let to this.

how very very right you are.

Commonsense..137

What is your justification for your hatred of hate-mongers? Are you justifying your hatred because hate-mongers promote hate? And why is that not sophistry?

smallsquirrel...
hmm...you got it partially...
I said "Not only in Gujarat...he is great Hero even in edjucated, high-earninig Hindus?"

So comparision of Hitler is ruled out. Moving further lets talk some thing new and original.

razor.. no I got it and I did not make a straight comparison... I simply said that like one would look at one situation (you can insert ANY political figure there) one should look at Modi's rise in the same way.

seems you, actually, did not get MY comment

Kerty,

Good attempt there, but: to hate hate-mongers is a necessary and sufficient condition to end hate. As in secular humanism, which, surprise surprise, I subscribe to, without apologies. You are free to believe in anything as long as you do not mess up my life in the "public sphere". Do what you want, with your religion and your imagined support of imgagined communities, but please restrict to your own private space. So, if I hate hate-mongers, I am trying to create a zone where no hate for any commmunity/religion is allowed. Do you recognize your sophistry here? As in "All Greeks are liars, said Plato". So, Plato was a Greek. So was he a liar? And so on and so forth. Sooner or later, the game, be it Greek or Indian, Muslim, Christian or Hindu, ceases to be worth the candle! My, no doubt utopian ideal, does not apologize for any group, community or creed. Instead, I seek to apply a "crap detector" ( Ernest Hemingway's words) to every idea that needs it....regardless of whether it is the jehadists/the parivar/the missionaries/the nationalists/the patriots/ or whoever is deluded into believing that they represent someone else while leaving a trail of blood and hatred while pretending that they are doing it for the "common good" although it is a partisan commitment.

Kerty,

Good attempt there, but: to hate hate-mongers is a necessary and sufficient condition to end hate. As in secular humanism, which, surprise surprise, I subscribe to, without apologies. You are free to believe in anything as long as you do not mess up my life in the "public sphere". Do what you want, with your religion and your imagined support of imgagined communities, but please restrict to your own private space. So, if I hate hate-mongers, I am trying to create a zone where no hate for any commmunity/religion is allowed. Do you recognize your sophistry here? As in "All Greeks are liars, said Plato". So, Plato was a Greek. So was he a liar? And so on and so forth. Sooner or later, the game, be it Greek or Indian, Muslim, Christian or Hindu, ceases to be worth the candle! My, no doubt utopian ideal, does not apologize for any group, community or creed. Instead, I seek to apply a "crap detector" ( Ernest Hemingway's words) to every idea that needs it....regardless of whether it is the jehadists/the parivar/the missionaries/the nationalists/the patriots/ or whoever is deluded into believing that they represent someone else while leaving a trail of blood and hatred while pretending that they are doing it for the "common good" although it is a partisan commitment.

Kerty wrote:

"What is your justification for your hatred of hate-mongers? Are you justifying your hatred because hate-mongers promote hate? And why is that not sophistry?"

Your query is akin to: "Buddha said we must get rid of all desires. But to get rid of all desires is itself another desire. Hence the desire to get rid of desires is not a valid proposition". We are talking across each other, so please be happy in your own desires and views. I sincerely wish you all the best.

Common Sense #148/149

I asked you those rhetorical questions because you called it sophistry when I made similar comments in some other thread about 'hate of hatred' not being morally equivallent with hatred.

I have no issue with secular humanism as long as it remains your personal ideology in your private space. When you bring it out in "public sphere" or seek to elevate it as state's ideology, I would like to use some of the arguments you used in #148

#146.
sq....u dint get my comments right....I said why people are seeing the result(Modi) and not the cause (pan-Hindu support globally).

So the issue is why Hindus are supporting leaders like Modi? And NOT why Modi is getting support.

Kerty # 134.
But why modi hires all size=5>NON GUJARATIS for these position. Does he think
that he can not find better candidate from Gujarat

Kerty # 134,
Sorry Kerty I have love and respect all including those who do not respect me...as long as that person is at least Human. I do not have any hate for them but no respect either. I am Hindu my self very proud Hindu. And I don't respect people who are "Dag" on the fundamental Hindu principals. If you want to win election use any means possible. But do not use Hindu extremism. Please leave Hinduism alone. To all Hindus who believed BJP during ayodhya adhyay; BJP was in power for 19 month in 1989 ( with VP Singh / Chandra Shekhar) , 15 days in May 1996 (Atal Behari Vajpayee) and full 62 months term in 1998 (Atal Behari Vajpayee). Why they did not built "Ram Mandir". Hinduism is just a ploy to get power. Get in inner circle of BJP and you will find the truth.

Amit,

Well said. Why did the BJP not build the ram mandir. why did they not push thru the civil code? because all these issues were mere ploys to come to power and need to be on the back-burner for later when they are out of power. and they desperately try to claim that they speak for all hindus! the same logic or lack thereof at work with all fundmamentalists, muslims, christians and what have you...

Amit

"And I don't respect people who are "Dag" on the fundamental Hindu principals."

I don't see your famous love oozing out there. Besides, you seem to be confused between fundamental Gandhian principles and fundamental Hindu principles - but that is your choice. But don't expect or be bewildered that everybody else would share your confusion. People have to live and deal with real world, not some fantasy world of fake idealism.

On issue of Ayodhya Rama Mandir, you don't even have clue how political process works and what kind of political realities exist in India to tackle issues like these - being in power does not mean acting like Nazi or doing dictatorship or playing roughshod over democratic institutions - It is about building consensus, mobilizing and uniting people, consulting coalition partners and taking into account their concerns, removing political opposition and legal hurdles - all of that need political will that needs to be created thru political process and democratic means, and therefore issue has to remain on political agenda and progress will be bumpy and slow depending on resolve of political opposition - some issues may have to take back seat because there is no consensus among coalition partners and political opposition may be insurmountable given razor this majority - slow progress on issues like Ram Mandir or uniform civil code or scrapping of article 356 is a reflection on resolve of political opposition and not political resolve of BJP - Ram Mandir is not about just building a concrete structure there, it is also about reconstructing political realities and it has to be done democratically - it shows how little you know about political realities or care about this issue and you claim to be a proud hindu. Come on now. None of us were born yesterday. If you are truely a Gandhian, you should look within why they have become such a laughing stock.

Kerty,
So tell me when will BJP will be success full in delivering HINDU nation to its followers. Isn't that what they are talking about in BJP inner circles?

Amit..

In the last meeting of BJP inner circle at 10 Janpath, we discussed about adopting Bhagvad Gita as Indian constitution, and Manu as common civil laws, VHP as judiciary, Bajarang Dal as law enforcement, Shiv Sena as Indian army. We figured that as soon as Modi has completed his Nazi progrom on Moslems and christians, BJP will be able to deliver Hindu nation. We also talked about what to do with Gandians like Amit. The inner circle was unanimous that Hinsa would be appropriate and many volunteered to raise army of Godse in each localities. In the next meeting of inner circle, we are going to discuss the time table for implementing our first 5 year Yogana. So stay tuned. But keep this confidential, we don't want Sujai to know, he will only leak it to media and Sonia which would spoil our secret party plans. If you want to join the inner circle as special guest of honor, the price is only 5.5 crore - we don't call it corruption because party needs funds to build Hindu nation and UPA has made everything so expensive.

Kerty,
So now you have spoken, the trut feeling of BJP.
I rest my case.

Amit..

Congratulation for winning the case. I knew I never had a fighting chance. I blame it on my lack of schooling. I could not develop my IQ beyond single digit.

[edited]

very informative article. Modi is digging his grave. He is not going to go that far. If he does, Allah will kill him into pieces.

lomi wrote
"If he does, Allah will kill him into pieces."

What Allah has a chop shop???

I thought Allah was mercifull but I guess I was wrong!!!

Every right minded person should join BJP and clean it from inside. Here is the link.
WWW.BJP.ORG

No, I think he was talking about a suicide bomber wearing an explosive belt.

That is not Gandhi Way. Gandhi died and Naththuram killed.