Where is the Muslim Outrage?

Dear Mike,

I salute you for this article. This introspection is what is unfortunately missing among the muslims of today. There are short comings in every religion including mine, but there are also enough checks and balances in each of them save Islam. The fanatics have hijacked it and you have demonstrated that all is not lost yet.

Many westerners go about deliberately provoking muslims and we all know what kind of insane response you get from some muslims. The tamasha goes on.......

Chandra:

Agree with you that a few westerners have made it their business to provoke, get angry reactions, create the fear and then cash it in. Poor Americans dole out monies if they are frightened and some charlatan claims to become their saviour.

However, Ms. Gibbons is a genuines teacher, and showed affection, it was rather endearing. Those idiots did not understand, they were waiting for an opportunity to get angry at anything, a result of their suppressive government.

They need to get on their government and not on others. There is big time Imam next door in Somalia, who openly advocated to have liquor within the confines of the walls.

It is a darn shame, people are misused and it is a greater shame, they take their anger on the innocent people.

Dear Ravi,

Thanks for the note.

Every religion has checks and balances including Islam.

The criminals laws of any country prohibit people from killing, raping, mugging... and there is a punishement for it. Greater than 95% of population of any country follows the laws, obeys the traffic laws.. some don't. It is not the law books that are wrong, it is the violators that are wrong.

Every religion is beautiful and divine. No one can claim superiority over the other, as each religions is dear to the believer.

Mike Ghouse
www.foundationforpluralism.com
www.WorldMuslimCongress.com
www.MikeGhouse.net

Please tell me I'm wrong. Can Islam be corrected?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/WWMD.htm

BTW I'm not here to start a flame war

#6 Hello Unni
It depends what sites you choose to read, well the above sites main purpose is to abuse Islam and Muhammed(PBHU), so what can we expect from this.
Thanks

well someone should be outraged because in the sudan people are taking to the streets calling for the execution of that british teacher, calling her an infidel and saying she is poisoning the minds of children. all over a small misunderstanding for which she has apologized profusely.

meanwhile in that country people are being murdered wholesale.

I have nothing against righteous mulims, but I hate extremists of every religion equally.

it is becoming a sad, frightening, polarized world.

condemnation is the order of the day for utter nonsense like this and the saudi rape victim

but the muslims have to go beyond condemnation and spread awareness and knowledge to their multitudes...that would be a formidable task

otherwise

they would be doomed to making knee-jerk condemnations for a long time

Dear Unni,

Dear Unni,

I know you are not here to start a flame war and I appreciate that, that means our resources are to be employed more appropriately - yours and mine and everyone else's to combat ignorance.

Religion is not the reason for problems of the world, it is the ignorance. As I have noted earlier - if one commits a crime in India -it does not mean India is criminal or its constitution is wrong, it is the darn criminal. Look at the crime stats - it is not committed by 100% of Indians be it 100%of Muslim, 100% of Hindu... you will not find more than 5% of population in crime, the rest are good law abiding citizens. India is not and cannot be called criminal... it is not even her people, it is the individuals. Same goes with Religion, it is not the religion.

How do you solve terrorism? The same way as common criminals, jail each one individually as individuals, and the murderer that is thrown in the jail is not to be labeled as Indian murderer, let it not be Hindu or Muslim terrorists, it is simply the terrorist.

If I call those guys involved in either Godhra or Gujarat - Muslim Terrorists or Hindu Terrorists... it offends the innocent law abiding Muslims and Hindus. It starts with the right labels. Terrorists. Period. It does not incite either Muslims or Hindus with such labeling.

Besides, the followers of all religions have their prime duty to have peace for themselves and peace for others.

As an individual, who is also a Muslim, me and all the people that I know, are there to mitigate conflicts and foster goodwill. I am sure, you are part of this peace makers. It starts with each one of us. If we cannot be peaceful, we cannot expect others to be.

Mike Ghouse
www.MikeGhouse.net

Dear SS,

None of us should have anything against others. Crimes are committed by individuals, not by Hindus, not by Muslims, not by a Nation or a religion.

If we bark against the wrong tree, we will not get the results. If you have the time check out my piece on Laser Barking at the terrorists - how to work with the terrorists.

Please do not hate any one - you are the first one to lose peace to do so and it strips your ability to be a peace maker or at least not to be a trouble maker.

Mike Ghouse
www.MikeGhouse.net

Dear Temporal;

Agree with your thought that condemnation is the first step to express the wrongness, that is the least one is expected to do. If one sees a wrong in the world, the prophet whom these ignorant's claim to follow, advises that you must step in and stop the wrong, mitigate the conflict or at least you can speak up and let others know it is wrong.

Many organizations are involved in bringing education to the criminals, it will come. Just as we cannot wipe crimes - thefts, rapes, mugging, arson, murders in India or America, we cannot completely eliminate terrorism in one day. But we can reduce it by treating them as individual criminals and containing the crime to them and not making it a group item.

You and I may not be satisfied with the speed of results, but it is happening.

mike... you misunderstand me... I said I hate extremists, and all of them equally. Meaning that I hate the people who give good, God fearing Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc a bad name. These are the people ruining the world...

I might be a troublemaker, but not the kind you think :)

SS,

Thanks for clarifying, I stand corrected. By the way, what kind of trouble maker are you?
Mike Ghouse

oh, you know.. the garden variety kind... the italian jew that married a hindu and moved to india kind... the girl who has a loud mouth and will tell anyone anywhere to stick it where the sun won't shine... but usually ends up making more friends than enemies.

The Muslim ummah is a fictional state in the west, that does not really exist in the Muslim world. I know of several educated Muslims who bemoan the backwardness of the Sudanese and the Arabs (what else can you expect from those goatf***ers? Bah!) rather than see this as a problem that affects all Muslims

Strangely though, lately I have seen a shift in this trend. Muslims who are judged for their beliefs by people who do not even know them (like Unni above) have begun to realise that, like it or not, what happens in Sudan or Saudi Arabia is no longer a local issue of jurisprudence, but a global issue of Islam. What Saudi Arabia and Sudan do is not linked to their history, type of government or culture but is an issue for all Muslims regardless of their country of origin. The Chechnyan, the Malaysian, the Indonesian, the Chinese, the Canadian, all must take responsibility for what happens in Sudan or Saudi Arabia.

Isn't it amazing that regardless of what people may think about Islam, they believe, deep in their hearts that all Muslims are one? Regardless of country, color, gender, socioeconomic status, ethnicity, all Muslims are as ONE.

Now all we have to do is wait for Muslims to discard their apathy and recognise this fact.

ss:

heheh

didn't you forget to add "... and who adds to the workload of the moderating editors.."

;)

Dear Sam;

You have made good points, but this particular one is the where I will apply the standard question, "IF IT APPLIES TO ME, WOULD THAT APPLY TO YOU?" or even" WHAT IS GOOD FOR THE GOOSE HAS GOT TO BE GOOD FOR THE GANDER"

Let's put your sentences to test;

The comment "What happens in Sudan or Saudi Arabia is no longer a local issue of jurisprudence, but a global issue of Islam".

What happens to Hindus in Caribbean, Fiji, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Russia, Uzbekistan or Timbuktu is no longer a local issue.

What happens to Christians in Indonesia, Pakistan, China or India is no longer a local issue.

And now this sentence;

Isn't it amazing that regardless of what people may think about Hindus, they believe, deep in their hearts that all Hindus are one? Regardless of country, color, gender, socioeconomic status, ethnicity, all Hindus are as ONE.

Isn't it amazing that regardless of what people may think about Jews, they believe, deep in their hearts that all Jews are one? Regardless of country, color, gender, socioeconomic status, ethnicity, all Jews are as ONE.

The Bahai's, Zoroastrians, Buddhist, Jains and others are no exception either.

It is wrong to paint Muslims or any one in that light, it is creating a division of Humanity... Yes, many a people do that, does it mean we have to do it as well? NO, absolutely NO. I have taken up the issue in each instance above. It is a human issue indeed.

http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2007/02/hindus-harassed-in-kazhakstan-dear-mr.html

http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2007/06/bangladeshi-hindus-harassed.html

http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2007/08/condemn-temple-desecration.html

The World Muslim Congress has condemned any injustice towards any human, whether is is Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian, Zoroastrian, Jew, Buddhist, Bahai or any one...

Each one of us have to stand up for justice for all. We cannot have justice to one and not the other, then it is not justice. Justice is a strong concept in all human endeavors and religions, certainly it is in Islam.

People make mistakes, religions don't.

Mike Ghouse

Mike,

This was a very interesting article. It is evident that there is some real movement in the Moslem world, and your writing is real evidence of this. With your permission (and that of the publisher here, I'll forward this article to the Yahoo List of Sheikh Abdulhadi Palazzi and to the Editor of the Root & Branch Information Service for publication there. It is very important for non-Moslems to realize that the Moslem world is not a monolithic bunch of mad, throat cutting terrorists or drive-by shootout artists, even if a lot of the locals here give that impression.

Shavua Tov,
Have a good week

Ruvy,

Shalom
(check this out:http://www.foundationforpluralism.com/Pluralism%20Greetings.pdf)

What made you log onto this website? Just curios.

Thank you for the comment, please forward to Dr. Abdul Hadi Palazzi in Italy, he and I have had several exchanges in the past... I lost the link to his website... he has the best recitation of one of the most popular chapter of Qur'aan. I long to hear it.

112:1 SAY: "He is the One God:
112:2 "God the Eternal, the Uncaused Cause of All Being
112:3 "He begets not, and neither is He begotten;
112:4 "and there is nothing that could be compared with Him.

I am familiar with the interfaith work that is going on in Israel. I was going to be in Jerusalem with the International Federation for Peace, but have postponed due to committments. May be in March 2008.

By the way we were the first group of Muslims in the world, who commemorated holocaust, the surivior spoke at lenght. And am a good friend of director at the Holocaust musuem. We will be doing the event again in Jan 2008. Never again should the world go through what it did in the holocaust.

I am surprised you are writing on Saturday!

Shavua Tov,
Mike Ghouse

ruvy:

welcome to the awareness! no group is monolitihic

:)

Ruvy,

you have my permission to forward the article, I don't know the policies of this forum on that particular issue.

Thanks
Mike Ghouse

Mike:

"Each one of us have to stand up for justice for all. We cannot have justice to one and not the other, then it is not justice. Justice is a strong concept in all human endeavors and religions, certainly it is in Islam.

People make mistakes, religions don't."

Absolutely, I totally agree. I always give the example, if you are drowning and a hand is extended to you for help, would you care about the religion of the hand?

20,000 children die of starvation everyday. A vast majority of people in the world live on less than a dollar a day, in conditions of shameful deprivation, lack of human rights and unaware of choices and opportunities that you and I take for granted.

Instead of bemoaning the visible results of this deprivation, what we need most urgently is people who CARE. Care enough to educate one child, feed a family and provide an opportunity.

As Gandhiji said:

The world has enough for everyone's need, but not everyone's greed.

I am happy and pleased to see your efforts. Kudos to you and all those like you.

First of all, I dont know who gives out this nonsense of "Religions are for peace". I have yet to see anything based on any ideology "ACT" for peace! NONE!

Religions are nothing but ideologies with a self-constructed haloes! Nothing more. Just like communism or hardcore capitalism... Islam or Christianity or other religions stand ONLY for their PRIMACY and nothing more. There is an inherent element of intolerance in the genesis and existence of all ideologically based groups.

So, to expect Islam or any other religion to even work for the goodness of mankind is utter nonsense. It can never happen.

There is a difference between spirituality and religion. At the level of spirituality, one does need to assert any thing.. least of all a "distinction"... so ideology or ideas that get their strength from people loses meaning. That alone can be basis of peace.

But to me when someone starts parroting that religions or ideologies which owe their strength in any one PERSON, GROUP, BOOK or institutions.. however pious He/They/it may be ... I am amazed at the inherent ignorance and shallowness of understanding of the real issue of misery in the world.

And please... dont start citing Quranic verses here to argue against this thing.. as I can also cite enough lines from Mein Kampf and Communist Manifestos etc. Its all the same... its about the animal called IDEOLOGY... the generic form.

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

"But to me when someone starts parroting that religions or ideologies which owe their strength in any one PERSON, GROUP, BOOK or institutions.. however pious He/They/it may be ... I am amazed at the inherent ignorance and shallowness of understanding of the real issue of misery in the world."

Then you are aware, are you not, of the role of secular institutions in sustaining this misery for profit?

It is true that group think can overwhelm personal ideology, after all, there are two types of people in the world, those who accomodate themselves to the world and those who refuse to do. All change is due to the second group of people, who though a minority, lead the others into revolutions. But its not the religion that defines the direction of change, it is the will and ideology of those who are willing to put themselves forward to institute that change.

Desh,

Let me address your comments back wards, Para by Para.

Please feel free to quote from any book you wish, if there is goodness out there, it ought to be universal and open, and not become any one's exclusive property. Christians do not own Jesus or his message, neither Hindu has copy rights to Bhagvad Gita or Santana Dharma nor do Muslims own Qur'aan or God. The message and the book belong to all. They are indeed self improvement books, and to limit them is a travesty to the message of goodness. It is a shame to bottle and limit the messages of these great teachers. It is a greater shame if we are close minded and afraid to learn from more than one source.

To understand misery in the world, please give a shot at reading Gautama Buddha's 4 noble truth, you will find an answer there as clear as crystal clear waters. The message of any religion is not a magical; it is a distilled wisdom to live a good life. A good life is where one is not afraid of the fellow being and pretty much have a balance between the desires and their gratification.

I agree with you about spirituality. Let me add. Spirituality and arrogance are inversely proportional to each other.

Please look around - look at the charities, hospitals, educational institutions, ashrams, soup kitchens, women shelters..... by all religions. They abound, without which life would not have been where it is today. All religions motivate individuals to take care of each other, especially the down trodden. By the way, both Hinduism and Islam have a saying "let the left hand not know the charity that right hand gives". There is a Doha (couplet) where one Muslim Fakir (forgot his name) was helping poor people and when he gave, he lowered his gaze and gave. Tulsidas wrote to him, why he does that, why does he lower the gaze, instead he should be proud that he gives.... The Fakir said "why should I be proud of giving something that is not mine, God gave me and I am merely passing it out?" Most charities and good works are not publicized; they silently work and help the needy. Prophet Muhammad had advised his associates, that when you give, give as quietly as you can - so you do not embarrass the receiver. Desh, please enrich me and quote from Mein Kempf, I would love to learn.

Each religion answers people's deep concerns - why was my baby born blind? Why did my beloved die? How do tyrants get away from injustices? How come I cannot find the job? Why is that I cannot have friends? .... Religions answer these questions and bring about calmness and composition to an individual and societies. Islam, Christianity or any faith, are all out there to do good to humanity. Individuals do wrong, but not the religion. The Pope in cahoots with the European kings issued a Fatwa that Christians have to go kill the infidel Muslims and Jews... Without that Edict, the soldiers would not have given up their lives for the kings. It is wrong of us to give the Pope as the representation of Christianity... he was as human as any one, he did not get the message of Jesus.... If not he would not have done what he did. Bhagvad Gita has my favorite quote - "Finding the truth is one's own responsibility" Which means, whatever you learn from your teacher and parents makes you hate some one without any basis, it is your responsibility to find the truth, so you can be released from the Pain and achieve Nirvana.

Thanks God we are endowed with religion (all of them), without which, the world would be chaotic.

Ah, by the way when Tsunami hit, every one was out there to help instinctively. The first ones to hit Tamil Nadu shores were Muslims, who gave shelter in their Mosques, the Swami Naryan People, Israel flew doctors to Banda Aceh... there was no distinction about who you serve and who served. That is the power of religion.

Mike

the real evil in this world is not religion per se, but American greed and lust for power, and the Christian fundamentalist neo-imperialists behind this. It is to their advantage to keep dictators in power in the third world and keep the population of those countries poor, uninformed, uneducated, and beaten down by their rulers. The western media uses images of Sudanese calling for the British teachers head to brainwash their own ignorant masses into believing that western (christian in fact) values are in danger. these events in Sudan and S.A. give them excuses to bomb away.
The media never mention the hypocrisy of labels. Muslims are "terrorists"...but were the IRA ever called roman catholic terrorists? Or were the Stern Gang called jewish terrorists? I dont think so.
If you want to talk about religion and terrorism look no further than the european/american christians!

the real evil in this world is not religion per se, but American greed and lust for power, and the Christian fundamentalist neo-imperialists behind this. It is to their advantage to keep dictators in power in the third world and keep the population of those countries poor, uninformed, uneducated, and beaten down by their rulers. The western media uses images of Sudanese calling for the British teachers head to brainwash their own ignorant masses into believing that western (christian in fact) values are in danger. these events in Sudan and S.A. give them excuses to bomb away.
The media never mention the hypocrisy of labels. Muslims are "terrorists"...but were the IRA ever called roman catholic terrorists? Or were the Stern Gang called jewish terrorists? I dont think so.
If you want to talk about religion and terrorism look no further than the european/american christians!

temporal #17.. yeah, that too. (grins sheepishly)

hey ruvy, you're back! shalom!

and PS.. wow! great paragraph of overgeneralizations you got there. so very helpful!

I am little new to this sites but not to this type of blogs.
very great article.
But one observation.
In the process of asking your Religion folks for introspection it is better not to compare with other religions.
This way it gives unnessary commparion and unnessary war of words...eventually loss of real message.
See the situation goes like..
-U compare Hindus/Xians at one point.
-One Hindu gets angry and responds with some comments.
-to this a Muslim (untill them believes your article) suddenly becomes defensive and blasts on him.
-then the loop continues.

I am not saying introspection is not needed in Hinduism or other religions/cultures.
-"Sati" which was prevalent some time back in hinduism was aboloished by every one. I don't it is practiced even on remote areas (some odd cases might be reported hear and there but it is not a trend)

-Similar way there are lot of things like woman's importantce in society, caste system,etc,etc are questioned and debated.

introspection is always needed in all religions.. as apart from basics I feel all religions shd evolve as mankind is evolving.

Namaste my Hindu friend,

Agree with you that introspection is necessary. The good news is, it is going on a daily basis. Thanks to the internet and America, people living in America (no matter what faith they wear) are fairly bold and value their freedom and judge religions from that perspective.

Yes, we have the neo-cons, a few Islamists, and few extremist zionists and a few Hindutvadis, who frighten people.

Look at any website that is run by neo-cons of all religions, there would be a fearful story as PS in #29 has narrated... and then they ask for money. All the right wing organizations know that the only way to collect money is to manufacture fear, twist events to fear...and ask money.

It is a business for them, and a lot of ordinary folks get suckered into it.

Mike Ghouse

A great article !Could someone tell me what happened to mysticism in Islam?Sufis and Dervishes with their language of celebration and joy are being stamped out by fanatics.Sudan is an extreme end of the spectrum;Islam also has Nusrath and Masth Kalandars who bring joy and ecstasy.Let us not be too obsessed with western opinions.The West for centuries has brought misery to the third world.

Updike, perhaps, is pointing towards those 'mystic-ecstatics', who sing about the importance of loving humankind without distinguishing one from another on the basis of her or his outer garb - Under the skin of our beliefs we are all human, has been their refrain. Such sooth-singers (sooth, meaning truth), have sprung up in every religious tradition, - the Bauls, the Sufis to name a few. These rebels were responding to the separative drives inhererent in all organised systems, be they religious or secular.

It is also a fact, however, that humankind, largely, has turned deaf ears to such messages, and turned the song into mere enjoyment, rather than learning.(Such learning can be intensely enjoyable too, I suppose?).

Updike,

Mysticism in Islam will continue to flourish, but not at the pace it happened in India. Their message is universal love, they are not bonded by rituals, they practice rather a free form of spirituality.

Abida Parveen is good - on you tube place Abida Parveen in search...these are really good... they will put you in a trance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9_3zOwEIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH8BgubvXWM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6aI1gdmy2U

It strikes me funny that the very people who are to be humble, are not - Look at the regalia worn by the clergy in all faiths - they have to have a certain color and wear it certain way to distinguish themselves from the others. They don't look and live like normal souls. They attain spirituality through clothing?

Western opinions? Living and being an American from India, I have never felt that they or we are a different breed. Physically we look different, but our motivations are same - food, clothing and shelter. Normal people (95%) are the same no matter what religion they wear - it is the fanatics within that 5% range that are difficult. They are accused of dividing and ruling - apply the formula what is good for goose is good..... It sticks to all.

Ms. Gibbons actually did not make the mistake from her point of view, but culturally it was different for the Sudanese. My friend Shiv visited me from India and had stayed with us for a few months, I got him to drive among other things... One day, I gave the key and told him to go on and drive... he said no... but then told me that he will not drive that day, as I was giving him the key with my left hand.

Mike

smallsquirrel

you said "and PS.. wow! great paragraph of overgeneralizations you got there. so very helpful!"

that's exactly what I was doing...overgeneralizing. western media does it so much towards the "Other" that I thought maybe if "we" did the same then the western masses might, just might, see that their perceptions of us were wrong (oversimplified and over generalized?). clearly I struck a nerve. was it the Stern Gang reference? this is not the first time you have been taken aback by my comments (remember the Redskins?).
was anything that I said untrue? Are not America and the christian fundamentalists causing so much anguish in the world?
Is Israel not an apartheid state? I await your reply

oh parmdan.. what a riot... stereotyping much because you read that I was jewish. please, give it a freaking rest. if you did your homework you would have read that I do not support settlement of israelis on palestinian land (west bank, gaza strip, etc) and I could give a damn about the stern gang. really. you did not strike a nerve, do please do not go patting yourself on the back.

what I object to is your constant stereotyping of ALL americans as greedy, warmongering neocon christians. it's so tired. it's so predictable. and it's too easy. it's simply knee-jerk. and I thing probably you've never been to the US to realize that the bulk of people there do not even fit your predictably sophmoric and cartoon-like representation of them.

as I have said a million times, yes the US does some totally fucked up things and should be held responsible for them. but this trend of overarching US-bashing for everything is simply useless.

let's use the Sudan for example. I love it when Indians whine that the US is doing nothing in Sudan. Uh, maybe then India should do something itself beyond continuing to fund the very people causing the genocide with their trade policies.

It's very easy to point the finger, and I agree that sometimes the US Government makes it easier. I am no fan of Bush, and that is putting it very lightly. But this rampant overgeneralization is the easy way out. anyone can make stupid generalizations. it takes an intelligent person to tease out the real issues.

I am taken aback by your comments only because they are far too facile to be taken any other way. they lack any creativity or thought or insight.

smallsquirrel,

you assume that because I "hate" the west that I must be in India. well you're wrong. I'm Indian but I grew up and live in Canada and have been to the states.
If the "bulk" of Americans are not "greedy, warmongering neocon christians" then why do so many have such strong beliefs in god?
by "bulk" I assume you mean more than 50%.
In my original post I said "American greed and lust for power, and the Christian fundamentalist neo-imperialists..." I never said that American people were ALL that; just the ones in control are. Was this a false statement? can you refute that the media loves to join "Muslim" and "terrorist" but never did with the IRA? or maybe I'm one of those delusional conspiracy theorists? I should be careful about what I say...they could be listening.
maybe if the yanks quit f@#$ing with every country that didn't agree with them then the world would be a better place. since you mentioned the issue of Israel and apartheid, have you (or do you) blog on any sites about those issues? do you make your views known that you "do not support settlement if Israelis on Palestinian land"? I wonder. Is your passion for those issues as strong as it is on desicritic?
"..the US does some totally fucked up things and should be held responsible for them. but this trend of overarching US-bashing for everything is simply useless." ¬maybe it's overarching but it is so f#@$ing true. at the end of the day most of these problems are caused by the americans/christian neo-imperialists. If I'm wrong then please enlighten me.

yes I do make my views known and plenty clearly

http://smallsquirrel.blogspot.com/2006/06/political-rant.html
or
http://smallsquirrel.blogspot.com/2004/07/just-another-brick-in-wall.html

those are just a couple small notes but there are plenty more. you just don't like to do your homework but instead like to spout off half-cocked.

and yes, the IRA *is* known as a terrorist group. what sand hole have you had your head stuck down?!?!? the US would not meet with Sinn Fein leaders for a very long time because we had classifed them as terrorists. again, please do your homework.

and I did not mention Israel, you genius... YOU did when you were busy trying to stereotype me.

also I said "indians" not "people in india" , so please make sure to quote me correctly when you do your half-baked ranting.

and you think the US is the anti-christ but Canada is blameless???

wow. good luck with the delusion, man. you're got issues far larger than I care to tackle.

The 'christian white west' and muslims are in the middle of a mad fight. The whites explore avenues to provoke muslims and the muslims react like nut jobs. We India should not fall for this. There should be no tolerance for anti-islamic crap nor for islamic fundamentalism of any sort. We have far more important things like Palestine and Sudan. Let them kill themselves, blow themselves, fight wars, butcher each other.

Mike,

I tried answering you last night, but for some reason Desicritics would not accept my comment. When you posted in Dallas it was the Sabbath - there. The Sabbath had already ended here in Samaria. This was the reason I was writing - on Saturday night, after the Sabbath had ended.

Sheikh Palazzi's site is www.amislam.com.

I tend to agree with Desh and you in that what is important is not the ceremony per se, but that one be a believer in the faith. In other words, rattling off a prayer by heart without meaning it is worse, in my eyes, than not praying at all.

I came to view this article because I am a writer here. I saw an e-mail from the publisher, Aaman Lamba, highlighting this article at the Blogcritics Yahoo! List and came to see what you had said.

You can find my work at Blogcritics Magazine at my writers' site there.

If you look at the writers list at Desicritics, you'll find my articles there as well. I firmly believe that there will be a reconciliation between the Children of Israel and the Children of Ishmael [Isaiah 60:7-8]. I would like to see a solution that will prevent a great deal of bloodshed - but I fear that my hopes will not be realized, and foresee a terrible war in the region in the not too distant future. The reconciliation prophesied in Isaiah, will have to come after many gallons of blood are shed, and this is truly tragic. But it is what events appear to point to.

Smallsquirrel and I generally do not see eye to eye (two Jews, three opinions) and you can get a good read of how I think from the very first article I posted at Blogcritics Magazine two years ago last November, Hanukkah - Judaism's most important holiday. Enjoy....

But, this does not change the fact that there is movement in the Moslem world that hopefully can combat the influence of the Wahhabi on Islam, and your own words are testimony to this.

Kol hakavód l'khá!

Reuven

Hello Ruvy if you talk about the reconciliation between children of Abraham it is a impossible mission atleast for near future, because more and more Jews in US are falling prey to Evangelical Christians and messianic ideologies, the evaangelicals are preparing for a war between west and Israel on one side and Muslim+russia+china on other side, resulting in second arrival of Jesus.
Any reconciliation should be between Palestanians and Jews living in Israel, no US between them.
As far wahabis(salafis) remember they do not have any interest in Palestine-Israel issue,and giving much importance to Jerusalem or Al-aqsa is a shirk.

"because more and more Jews in US are falling prey to Evangelical Christians and messianic ideologies"

I do not believe this. In fact, what is happening in American Judaism now is that people are practising it less and less. Out of 50% of Jews who profess to be Judaic (the other 50% are secular Jews or profess no religion), only half, ie about 26% go to a syangogue.

http://www.culturaljudaism.org/pdf/ajisbook.pdf

Sam,

You are close to being right, you will be right in a few more years. The movie about a Palestinian terorrist was premiered in Dallas. I was perhaps one of the few non-Jews there.

The conversation after the show was interesting... I have written two columns on that some two years back and a few of my Jewish friends agreed with the content.

Several of them denied that the Palestinians did not exist and were an implant from Arab nations. Of couse, when I reminded them 1948, and Holocaust relocation....then a few started seeing another point of view.. but they were afraid to speak up. It amazed me how much misunderstand is out there.

However, more and more Jews are thinking independently now, and are not afraid to speak up, unlike in Israel, where Jews do speak up against wrongs. By the way, the principle of what is good for goose.... applies to Hindus, Muslims and Christians as well.

My mission is for people to see demystify the myth of others, as that myth is ours too.

Mike Ghouse

Farhan,

It is not an impossible mission. Possibilities exists because each one of us, you, me, Ruvy and others believe it will happen.

The extremists in all faiths are very passionate about what they do, they jump at the command and stick with the leadership,(they surrender to the will of their leaders and rarely employ their mind) whereas that passion is missing among the moderates. The time has come for us to speak up and out strongly.

The ugliness of Bush/Cheney gang persists in the world because the darned good for nothing majority hesitate, by nature they are not loud enough to condemn their missions. By the way I am a Republican, a moderate one. There aren't that many of us, but the seed is sown and will take time to for the Republicans to get off the hard core mindset to the middle of the line, which most Americans (or any public in any nation) are.

The chief difference between the extremists (neo-cons, Hindutavadis, extreme Zionists and Islamists) and us the moderate is they drive the herd with fear, and we have hope to dangle and not many not find it interesting. Theirs is tangible and ours is intangible.

The neocons (all faiths) feast on every instance like the one in Sudan and Saudi Arabia, while the other extremists feed them. We should not stay quite and become a spectator, we have to do the right thing. The least we can do is speak up.

Mike Ghouse

Mike..

Good post and very timely.

Condemning bad is very theraputic for society. Especially from members of communities on whose name bad is committed. Also when it is committed by a fellow member and rest of the community had nothing doing with it. It allows stray or local incidents from escalating into us vs them hostility. Silence or looking other way usually allows the other side to mobilize the outrage of the incident to make a bigger issue out of it, whose consequences can come back to haunt entire communities. So silence and looking other way is never an option. After the issue has taken confrontational overtones and damage is already done, coming out of the shell and hitherto silence to pour condemnation and outrage is rarely effective and stand accused of partisan posturing and exploitation for political ends.

I agree that all religions have something good in them which holds these religions togather and they also somethings bad. They all have their minding-their-own-business majorities and small bend of fanatics out to change the world in their religions' mirror image. Religions have to find ways to wrest power away from their fanatics and fundamentalists by creating other power-centers within, empowering moderates - some religions so have mechanism to do that, some do not. And that is the crux of problem - because it gives fanatics of other religions an imperative and urgency to empower themselves at the expense of moderates. Ultimately. merit of religions in modern society have to be judged on this, not by how much good they do and what is actually meant in their scriptures. Otherwise, Nazism and communism too had their ardent followers and they too did lots of good work and they too had their share of fanatics and they too can claim they had to do terrible things for maintaining purity, purpose and self-defense of their menifestos. So how are religions any better? What if communists were to claim communism was good but only people did not follow it right and only its fanatics were to blame and not communism? That can not be how religions or ideologies can be measured. How well they are able to self-police their own worst instincts and their own worst elements is the critical yardstick.

smallsquirrel

I said, were the IRA ever referred to by the christian media as a CATHOLIC terrorist group?
NO...never! although they had every right to wage war with the Brits.
How much money did Irish-Americans give to the IRA in the 70s and 80s, I wonder?
the Brits bomb Afghan and Iraqi villages, why the f#$k did they never bomb Irish villages?! cause they're full of white christians? I imagine that you never thought of it this way.
how do I feel about Canada (in Afghanistan)? I hope all those christian MFers die. I love reading my morning paper and hearing about another dead canadian/christian soldie...and that goes for all foreign euro/christian neo-imperialists in Afghanistan, Iraq, and everywhere else.
no matter how hard you try, how long you live in India, how well you speak an Indian language you will never understand what it feels like to be the Other in this world.

Parmdan,

We Jews all know what it means to be the Other in the world. For all her differences with me in her views, Smallsquirrel knows as well as I. We both know what it means to hear Christ-killer, god-killer, Jew bastard, kike, and all the other shit the goyim threw our way in America. We all know what it means to be worried about a pogrom, even if we never experienced it ourselves. Some of us had to fight hateful scum throughout our entire childhoods because we are Jews. Screw the pictures of Auschwitz. We see the old folks with the blue numbers tatooed on the arm, the numbers they didn't want to talk about for years - and we know. And when they finally do talk about it we want to break down and cry. But the show goes on, and we cannot afford to break down or to cry, except in the darkness, hidden from a world sick with the gimmes - gimme this, gimme that! And here in the Middle East, I hear itbáH al-yahúd! (slaughter the Jews!) and al-yahúd klabná (the Jews are ur dogs). So we know.

Smallsquirrel and I have walked different paths, and therefore have different views, but neither of us needed to know any languages of India to know the language of oppression, and about being the Other.

If you want to wag your finger of self-righteousness, wag it at someone else.

When we all know that the cases highlighted in this article are nothing to do with Islam then why should we be outraged? Saudi and Sudan are as much islamic states as Israel and the US. We forget that the creators of the state of saudi arabia were the destroyers of the ottoman state -the last islamic khilafah/state.

the darfur crisis is one engineered by the western powers to access to sudan's natural resources i.e. oil and gas.

judge islamic laws by the actions of a caliphate. you yourself highlight the example of the 2nd caliph omar ibn khattab. these are the people to use as examples of islamic law in practice whether good or bad.

to go on the back foot everytime the media highlight some bad actions by muslims mean putting islam on trial every other second. this is a sign of deep insecurity.

do we trial christian america or the west for 2 world wars, use of atomic weapons, conquest of small 3rd world countries like vietnam? NO.

Islam doesnt need defending. the worlds truth seekers whether muslim or not know the real culprits and reasons behind contemporary troubles.

Mike:

You are close to being right, you will be right in a few more years.

Dear Mike,

I provided the reference!!!!

ruvy.. thank you, I could not have said that better myself. some people just really need to feel like they are the only people on earth that have ever been persecuted. like it is a badge of honor or something

parmdan... you are truly sad. and sick. and you don't make sense. and you're hateful.

on these grounds I am pretty much done with you. you just want a punching bag, not a dialog.

Kerty (#47)

I just cannot admire your note... I was writing one similar article, but I will defer to you, your words are just perfect and express my sentiments. Please write a full blown article on that. It will hit the target in the bulls eyes.

Mike Ghouse

Mudassar Rana,

Please refer to Kerty's note (#47), it has the answers to your forthright comments.

Our goal,the people with a conscience and people who care about peace in the world in general, and the Muslims who sing a song about Islam being peace in particular, have additional burden to do the work of peace.

I do agree with you 100% that the majority of any group knows the truth, that it is the work of fringe element and it is.

However, when you see the fringe group constantly violate the rules, in the case of Sudan, the government was involved in it and shamelessly they took pride in it that they have reduced the punishment to 15 days. There should not have been any punishment at all, she did not make a deliberate mistake, it was an honest cultural conflict she did not understand. Average people do that every day.

It is our obligation to condemn such a wrong, if not, it is a blanket authorization to others to continue.

The Saudis? I do not think it is an Islamic government in any form, monarcy is not Islamic, the prophet wanted leaders to be selected with consensus, sort of democratic system. The prophet was not in favor of hereditary leadership either, he knew, it would become corrupt. I have written and talked about it at lenght, but for now, Saudi is not an Islamic Govt.

To call their brutal laws Islamic is a shame, and if we do not condemn it, we are silently approving it.

The evil exists in the world not because of evil people, but because the good people don't do anything about it.

Mike Ghouse

Sam,

Without any doubt, you provided the reference, it is indeed acknowledged and appreciated.

Thank you my friend.

Mike Ghouse

Ruvy,

I fully understand the agony and the pain the Jewish community endures. I empahtize and respect the capacity of the community to bear it.

The worst case of betrayal came in Germany, when after nearly a 2000 years of diaspora, the Jews integrated into the society, believed, they were no different, believed they were a part of it. In all reality, the fascist criminals did not accept the genuine sincere effort of Jews then.

Although a majority of Christians do not have ill-will, there are enough of those few evil men who call Christ-Killer and the other phrases you have mentioned.

Every day, some where or the other comments are hurled at Jews. Two years ago, in the Dallas City council, a council man referred to another council person as "You people", meaning Jewish is some thing less. I was outraged and Dallas Morning News published my outrage then, not only that several Muslims were outraged with that kind of attitude by the council person.

Ruvy, it is the small things we have to guard... you had said a beautiful phrase somewhere above that every day we discover myth busting every day... welcome to the world of....

You, me, and every one who is committed to creating a better world, have to keep working at it, I know we can at least let a few people see that there is good in accepting and respecting the God given uniquness to each one of us.

Mike Ghouse

Mike,

My hat is off to you and to any who are determined to reclaim their religion from the fanatics.

A person can take any belief system and warp it into a reason to legitimize hatred and bigotry. It is up to all of us to utilize reason and love to penetrate these kinds of narrow minded acts and beliefs. Often the scariest actions are not those of the perpetrators but rather of those who look upon them with apathy.

We can not afford to ignore those who warp any beautiful religion into their own ends. A few days ago a gentlemen asked me about my upcoming trip to Malaysia to speak with 300 Muslim women, (I'm not Muslim by the way), where I am supposed to speak about how to balance preserving one's culture in the face of globalization without resorting to violence. The man had to gall to suggest that I tell these women to change to some other religion than Islam. I had to struggle not to spit up my water, as he said it when I was in mid sip! I asked him calmly why he thought that and he answered, "Well look at all the extremists out there!" So I asked him if he thought the Ku Klux Klan exemplified Christianity. Of course he said, "No". So then I asked him, "But they say they do." Of course he said, "But I'm a Christian and I have do not abide by their awful belief systems. They just warp our Bible." I smiled at him and said, "Exactly." The light went off in his head at that moment.

All of us hold our spirituality as a deeply private matter...I'm not talking about the public charms around our necks of star of Davids, crosses, or even a Wiccan pentacle. I'm not talking about showing up for church in your Sunday best. I'm talking about our conversations with God that occur inside our heads and hearts in those sacred moments of the days or night. We would each feel this communion with the Divine with or without the aid of any one religious practice. But for some reason people like to think that they can lay claim to what that holy relationship is between other individuals and the Divine. What arrogance!

Perhaps the greatest answer to fanatics of any kind is to ask where is their humility? I mean, at what point does any one individual believe he or she can speak for what another's beliefs and spiritual practices should be and how they should be practiced. And how should any one of us begin to judge another for being less a Christian, a Jew, a Moslem, a Native American, a Hindu, a Wiccan, a Zoroastrian, a HUMAN BEING than who we are?

Again, Mike, my hat is off to you for standing up for your faith's true beauty in the face of extremists who claim to speak for all Muslims. For mankind to progress past these kinds of socio-pseudo-religion "takeovers", we will all need to practice the same kind of humility, respect, passion and grace as you have.

Stay Inspired!

Mary Ann Thompson-Frenk

Mary:

wish you success in your upcoming malaysian trip

when will you visit the west bank and address palestinian mothers, widows and orphans with your wonderful message about how to balance preserving one's culture in the face of globalization without resorting to violence?

they could surely use it and pass it on to their children so our world can be less violent

you could also make a side trip to tel aviv and speak with the mothers, widows and orphans there too

smallsquirrel AND Ruvy

so does the suffering of the Jews at the hands of the Christians give Isreal the right to treat the Palestinians like shit? to make Gaza into the biggest prison in the world? to apply the same apartheid policies on Arabs that the whites used against the Africans and Asians in South Africa?

Mary..

Good luck to you, though I doubt it makes much difference talking to groups if they are already sold on to preserving their cultures - I mean fundamentalists are not doing bad job of fighting off threats to their cultures and if people are worried about their culture being eroded by anything, they are more likely to turn to their fundamentalists, and not all of them engage in violence as a first resort, they do have power of persuasion - it is when they have to deal with opponents they end up using heavy-handed tactics.

I do not know where did you get 'All of us hold our spirituality as a deeply private matter..', not when mankind needs to be saved, not when their religion is so universal it can not be individualized for personal interpretations nor any aspect/sphere of life be kept away from its universalism.

I don't know what kind of God is available to you for private one-on-one conversation - for God has stopped talking to anybody long time back and God is not in or of creation, period. Last time somebody claimed to have spoken with God, people hailed them as prophets and their words as final word on/of God - God has no more to say to anybody in creation, God was accessible to only chosen ones and that act is done and over with, God has permanently retired for eternity now. Are you sure you are not conversing with your own demons in your brain?

May be KKK or Nazis do not exemplify xianity. Xianity has gone thru reforms, enlightenment, Renaissance and it had to be separated from state. Not all religions have gone through similar phases and to presume that what applies to xianity would apply to such religions as well is over generalization.

Mary Ann,

I know you will do a great job in building bridges in Malaysia and inspiring people to do be good beings.

All it takes is for each one in our groups, including this particular group to become ambassadors of peace - their words and actions reduce conflicts and gives hope.

Let's not look to someone else, neither keep a score on others. Let's bring the peace to our own soul first... peace is possible, if we are peace first.

Thank you Mary Ann for such an inspirational message.

Mike ghouse

Mary:
With all due respect to you, I (know your intentions are not that but just) want to bring one fact that Proselytizing in Malaysia is banned.

Sorry..I will be clear now.
Proselytizing is banned for MUSLIMS only. But Proselytizing on Hindus and Buddists is allowed.
(Now I understand how the World's top two religions are maintaining their numbers.)

Razor,

It is a shame indeed, and we have condemned this at least three times:

http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2007/05/malaysian-apostasy-case.html

http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2007/06/muslims-affirm-freedom.html

Conflict erupts because of arrogance, arrogance that my faith is superior and thus, the others need to learn. My system of governance is superior thus others need to follow..

Let me apply what is good for the goose.... gander, applies here:

Look at our big country USA... just a few idiots are running this nation and creating havoc around the world, terrorising nations and butchering millions, and we the good for nothing silent majority is screaming, and those gutless, useless democracts are scared to stop this bullying...even though we have given them the majority in both houses.

The few extremists Malaysians could justify their wrong doing on the above principle. They care less what the world thinks. If we, the united states can regain our moral standing in the world, like we had before, we can be an example to the world to goad into changes with love and by example.

Last night I was watching Geraldo Riviera at large, he was interviewing someone in Sudan... and asks the other reporter "Aren't the Sudanese ashamed of what the world thinks of them?... ho ho ho. Isn't our president ashamed of what the world thinks of us? Geraldo does not have the brains to ask that question to our president. Just us,UK, Egypt and Israel ,four against 192 nations?

A few comments expressed were holier than thou attitude in this forum.

As they say, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, I say, faith is in the heart of the believer.

Let me assert, I am a Muslim, and Islam suits me fine, but, never, ever, I will claim that my faith is superior to any other, all are divine to me, all faiths are here to makes us better beings.

Mike Ghouse, I am still a Republican, a moderate one for that matter.

parmdan.. does the problems perpetrated by some christians give you the right to be a heinous bigot and spread hate and misperception everywhere you go?

why do you INSIST on applying views to me that I do not subscribe to. and honestly, it's all good and fine for you to go ON AND ON about the middle east, but me thinks you have never been there. Ruvy lives there and deals with it every day.

please stop your clap-trap armchair pseudointellectual hate-filled philosophizing. it's old already.

smallsquirrel

you have not answered one of my questions on the apartheid state of Israel. do you deny that this is happening? do you think Ruvy would be dealing with it everyday if his government was not perpetrating these atrocities on the Palestinian people? was it not the Israeli army that leveled Beirut and killed thousands las summer? but I guess in the Middle East Israeli (Jewish only..not the Arabs) lives are worth more than Arab or Palestinian lives?
remember that the Balfour Declaration called for a Palestinian state. where the hell is it?
And tell me, what are my misperceptions that I'm spreading?
would you have defended the rights of whites in South Africa during the Apartheid era?

parmdan, I am sick of this. I answer your questions, you don't read the answers then you ask them again. it's ridiculous and I do not have time or the energy or the inclination for it. scroll up, read the links I posted and stop being ridiculous and asking the same shit over and over.

as for ruvy, as he has said.. he and I don't share the same politics. that being said, it's awfully easy to have an opinion on something when it does not impact your life directly. like just about everything you comment on. you HATE HATE HATE the west yet you suckle off it's teat nicely, don't you? if you hate it so much, get some balls and go live somewhere you support. or work to change it. do something productive rather than shooting off your mouth and not saying anything of value. or in your spare time learn how to read, cause that is clearly not your strong point.

my problems are not with condemning the actions of either sudan or saudi arabia - because to me they are worse than the state of israel because they claim to be islamic and are not.

secondly as muslims we must be aware of the siege mentality and constantly trying to justify oursleves. I feel there is no need and am more than confident in my deen and belief.

Islam as a political,economic socio-legal force should be judged by the actions of an islamic caliphate. Sudan and saudi do not equate to a caliphate. In fact as you will be aware Saudi is the only country named after a family and was created by the british in 1924 to split the ottoman empire. We must remember if we clothed a supermodel in muslim dress she doesnt become muslim and similarly if a country's populace is muslim its rules dont have to be. Indeed if a country were in this day and age to declare the caliphate the US and western powers would do its utmost to finish it off as the muslim worlds natural resources would be used to furnish islamic peoples and ideals and not western multi-nationals.

I have never read your work before but i sincerely hope that you condemn the oppression of muslims in their millions by america and the west in the same way that you have been outraged over the teddy bear incident.

smallsquirrel

so your a historian? a political scientist? please tell me what books I should read because I've had my head in a hole for the last few decades.what books would you recommend that I read on politics and history (this is not a rhetorical question. if you presume that I dont read then lets see what you know)? Everywhere I've been I meet people like you...western and white. they think they know all the answers and enjoy enlightening us "coloured folk." doing Whiteman's Burden. It must be such a heavy load to carry for you.
I dont spread HATE HATE HATE, you people have been doing such a great job for the last 500 years that you've left nothing for us.
SO I will ask again: Is Israel an apartheid state? and why is the west not doing anything about it?

Yay! Bring on the racism charge! Lol....

#68

your query is misdirected

direct it to ruvy the resident apologist

Dear Mudassar,

I fully understand the frustration you have.

We are constantly justifying ourselves because we rarely speak out on our own wrongs. I do worry about the wrongs others do, but my first goal is to clean myself. We need to get into the position of casting the first stone, we are not there and we need to start to walk towards that point.

I admire your confidence in your faith and I am pleased with mine as well and I have no problem being open about who we are - like every one else we have a great faith to follow, and like every group, we have our own extremists. We have to own them all; good, bad and ugly. We have to apologize for our mistakes and not worry about loosening political points, remember Qur'aan is clear - God loves those who forgive and be truthful to themselves.

You made a good point about judging Islam by the Caliphate, a government that believes in Justice, kindness and equity for all. That would be a good rule if God himself (herself or itself) heads the kingdom, but that ain't going to happen. The Caliphate had a share of bad caliphs as well, the fifth or sixth one was not a good feller, most of them were good. We are human and we make mistakes, and it is not exclusive to us, the Pope's have made grave mistakes, almost being anti-Christ. I am sure you will find that in every faith.

The societies are no more single celled individuals, there will not be a city in the world in a decade, where you would not find at least half a dozen faiths living in it. Given that, either a secular or a pluralistic form of Democracy is the right thing, respecting and honoring all the God's children. I am completely opposed to every form of religious governance - as they are not run by pious people but the politicians who emerge out of conflicts and survive with conflicts. I am against Caliphate in any form or shape, as I know, some one is bound to make a mistake. In Pakistan for instance, they declared Ahmadiyya's to be non-Muslims, The Mufti of Mecca declared Shia's to be Non-Muslims, and If Ayatollah declares Sunnis to be non-Muslims at least in his country - then no one in the world would be a Muslim, it is against Islam to pre-judge any being, only God reserves that right and on an elusive future date.

So my friend, a majority of Muslims, deep down in their hearts do not want Caliphate. The United States and Western powers don't have to do that, we will do it ourselves because we do not want one ideology imposed on us. We humans love freedom and remember, one of Islam's goal was to free people from the clutches of clergy, thanks God for that. Most of us are free except those few. The counter argument I get is we can be united, my responses is no, it will not happen. We are humans, and we cannot forge unity when we are so different. Personally I will stand against that caliphate along with 1.4 billion Muslims for the reasons I have cited.

I am a Muslim and it is my duty to bring peace and reduce conflicts in the world, that was the first model prophet Muhammad showed us, when he brought the conflicting parties together to lift the Aswad Stone to set it in Mecca, every one participate in it. That is a shining example of a Muslim who minimized conflicts and foster good will. Prophet Muhammad had no gains from it, but bringing peace to the community. Let's follow that model.

Mudassar, thanks to Allah, the God, I have earned respect from every community - Atheists, Baha'I, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jain, Jewish, Shinto, Sikh, Wicca, Zoroastrian and few native African and American tribes. Look up the website www.foundationforPluralism.com that has documented some of my work, a whole lot needs to be uploaded on it. I am fair in my criticism and in my love for God's children.

The only people who do not like my work are clearly the 1/10th of 1% of faith based groups - it boils down to: Islamists, neocons, Zionists, Hindutvadis to list a few. I am not against them at all, I would like them to see that their efforts instead goes into peace, the world would be a much better place. I will have to reluctantly live with their animosity and threats.

No one can shake you, if you do good.

Mike Ghouse

Parmdan,

I see you are still harassing smallsqirrel over your propaganda filled questions.

From what little I read of what you write, you do not know jack shit about the Middle East or about Arab society, or about how societies in this part of the world organize themselves. If you did, you would not attempt to use appellations like apartheid. Anamika, who basically uses the "settler state" analogy in her analysis is as misguided as you are. But at least she reads and clearly comprehends issues and can bring evidence to back up her point of view. I may not like how she comprehends these issues. But she can see beyond propaganda most of the time. And often, she provides insightful analyses of her own that are helpful to me.

You unfortunately appear unable to do any of these things.

So, to indulge you and to shut you up, both.

Go to my links in comment #42 of this comment thread, particularly my article about Hanukkah. It, unfortunately, is most timely. Read there. You'll see plenty of my view of the world, and you will understand how and why I cope with living in this part of the world. Also, go to my writer's page here at Desicritics.

smallsqirrel,

Speaking of Hanukkah -

Did you manage to eat any latkes (potato pancakes)? Did you find any sufganyot (jelly doughnuts)in Bangalore?

Are you able to light a Hanukkiah outdoors there, where everyone can see it?

In Ma'ale levona, if you want to light candles outdoors, you have to put them in a glass enclosure so the wind on the hilltop won't blow them out. I don't have the glass enclosure - and it's getting cold here at night, so I don't want to stay outside to contemplate them....

Ruvy,

so you're saying that Arabs in Israel have the EXACT same rights as Jews? You country talks of bombing Iran over its nuclear program yet you hypocrites possess how many hundreds of nuclear bombs!? What about the so-called security wall? do you have any answers to these questions!? what the Jews do to the Palestinians is worse than what the whites did to the Africans in South Africa. You people are a bunch of fascists!

dear mike,

i have no problem with your work - please continue. I have a general problem with apologising for leaders who to cover their own inadequacies with the veil of islam. then i have a problem with western superpowers crying fowl when one of their own is wronged, yet these same people shout "rule of law" when innocent muslims are banged up without charge and legal recourse.

I harked back to the caliphate because that is in essence islamic law in practice. Im sure your aware that people of other religions lived in peace with muslims under this law. Infact Professor Meyer Kaplan of Israel has even suggested that it is the only way the problem of palestine can be solved.

I firmly disagree with your assessment that muslims dont wish for caliphate. Because secular laws all over the muslim world has brought nothing but disgrace upon muslims. Infact there are ayats in the quran that refer to leaders who do not rule by what allah has revealed as "oppressors", "wrong doers/transgessors" and "kaafir".

As far as you earning respect from different communities because of your work - I never denied this and wish you to continue. Yes the Prophet s.a.w. role was one to bring peace and mercy to this world but I believe that it can only be done via a state and not on an individual level. Because surely peace and mercy encompasses the eradication of poverty and this cant be done with capitalism, charity, or even pop concerts!

As far as the imams of makkah saying shia are kaafir or pakistan not allowing qadianis to refer themselves as muslims is concerned - these are all decisions made by corrupt nation states and not of an islamic caliphate. nevertheless the qadiani's are not muslim as the do not believe in the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad s.a.w. Also please understand that Saudi Arabia is a creation of the british empire and a monarchy that has different rules for its citizens,rich western foreigners and poor pakistani/bengali/phillipino's is certainly not islamic. and chopping of hands of poor immigrant workers is certainly not!

Islam from my understanding is not a religion just for rituals it is a message to humanity to organise their whole affairs and that is in the true sense of "abidoon" i.e. obedience which Allah created us for.Man made laws have made the lives of the masses a misery and an elite have filled their bank balances.

The following verses of Qur'an, are just a few of the Islamic evidences that clearly demonstrate that Islam came to decide all matters. Secularism denies Islam any say in politics. Allah (swt) revealed in the Qur'an:

"But no, by Your Lord, they can have no (real) faith until they make you (Muhammad s.a.w)judge in all disputes between them and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept them with the fullest submission." [TMQ 4:65]

"And if you judge between people, judge with justice." [TQM 4:58]

"Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those of you in authority..." [TMQ 4:59]

"Whosoever does not judge by that which Allah has revealed, such are disbelievers." [TMQ 5:44]

"Whosoever does not judge by that which Allah has revealed, such are oppressors." [TMQ 5:45]

"Whosoever does not judge by that which Allah has revealed, such are transgressors." [TMQ 5:47]

"So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and follow not their desires away from the truth that has come to you." [TMQ 5:48]

"Judge between them by what Allah has revealed and follow not their desires but beware of them lest they seduce you from some part of that which Allah has revealed to you." [TMQ 5:49]

"The rule is to none but Allah." [TMQ 6:57]


The prophet Muhammad below in a hadith prophecises the return of the caliphate rashidah (based on the prophethood)


"The Prophethood will remain among you for as long as Allah wills, then Allah will lift it when He wishes to, then it will be a Khilafah Rashidah (Rightly Guided) on the method of the Prophethood, it will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah will lift it if He wishes, then it will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if he wishes, then it will be a tyrannical rule, and it will remain so for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes, then it will be a Khilafah on the method of the Prophethood, then he kept silent."

The tyranical rule is what we are living in today. Also the hereditary leadership is sometimes referred to a biting monarchy in some transalations which refers to what you were saying about some caliphs being corrupt.

I also wholly disagree that because muslims and non-muslims are living in a so-called melting pot they would rise against a future caliphate. I think the people of Palestine, Bosnia, Kashmir, Iraq, Kashmir would really disagree with you.

I apologise for the long post. My previous posts in no way intended to decry your work, but only to illustrate my frustration at muslims apologises or feeling bad for things that are nothing to do with islam. We dont see the british apologising when muslims are harassed and arrested without evidence, and I sincerely feel that we are beginning to suffer from an inferiority complex. Soon we will be apologising for the holocaust!!

best regards and Salaam Alaikam

Yawn! What started as a promising article again got into the usual muslim breast beating mode:everybody's is against Islam!!

few points in my mind:
1.Why is that any barbaric law enacted by the Islamic countries dismissed with a line 'these are not truly Islamic countries' by almost all muslims.
2.Then how come an attack on any country with a muslim population is an attack on Islam,when they are not truly Islamic nations?
3.US has attacked/needled other non-muslim states like North Korea,many south American states like venezuela,Nacaragua.Why are not these considered against a particular religion/race?

Let's take a look:
a).Afghanistan was bombed because the satanic Taliban refused to co-operate with the 9/11 investigations.The attack was good because the pre-historic talibans were defeated for some time at least.
b).Iran is ruled by a psycho who keeps coming up with threats of wiping nations off the map.It's good for the world if this psycho is also driven out.
c).Iraq was the biggest mistake.It dethroned the only sensible muslim(but not Islamic) ruler who kicked the believer's ass.

Out of three wars of US 'against' Islam,only one seems to be wrong.What about the US coming to the aid of muslims in Bosnia?Will the ungrateful muslims realise this ever?

Still,people would like us to belive that only a few muslims are extremists.Locking up a teacher for a 'mistake' commited by students is a sign of peacefulness?Why allah-the so called most merciful sent a messenger whose name can't be given to a Teddy by children?Is one expected to enroll in a madarsa and learn kuran before taking up a teaching job in a nation of muslims?Do the muslims learn anything abt the coutry when they migrate to US or Europe?Muslim hypocisy and double standard knows no bounds.Their god is always addressed as the 'most merciful' but the minutest 'prank' cannot be tolerated by the followers of these so called merciful god.

Dear Bong Buster:


"a).Afghanistan was bombed because the satanic Taliban refused to co-operate with the 9/11 investigations.The attack was good because the pre-historic talibans were defeated for some time at least."

What 9/11 investigations? Can you name any investigations into 9/11? The FBI site does not even carry 9/11 with Osama's name because according to Rex Tomb, the FBI's Chief of Investigative Publicity, "The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11."


And moreover, the Taliban only asked for evidence. Are you saying if the US asks any country to hand over a person without any charge or evidence, they should do so? Why? The US did not even hand over CIA agents for trial in Italy over kidnapping of a citizen.

In fact the Taliban made several overtures

1. they asked for evidence
2. they agreed to conduct a trial in Afghanistan
3. they agreed to hand over Osama to a third neutral party.

The US refused all three offers. Now after several years of bombing innocent citizenss, Bush says that Osama is not a priority. wtf? You killed countless civilians "we don't do body counts" and now Osama is not a priority?


And according to Bush, Osama is no a priority. Now since most of th 9/11 hijackers were educated, middle class men from Saudi Arabia, can we know what the results of those investigations have been?

Weekly Standard editor Fred Barnes appeared on Fox this morning to discuss his recent meeting with President Bush in the Oval Office. The key takeaway for Barnes was that "bin Laden doesn't fit with the administration's strategy for combating terrorism." Barnes said that Bush told him capturing bin Laden is "not a top priority use of American resources."

video
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/09/14/barnes-osama/



"b).Iran is ruled by a psycho who keeps coming up with threats of wiping nations off the map.It's good for the world if this psycho is also driven out."

You must be the only person in the world who does not know what the Iranian president actually said. He quoted Khomeini, who btw was very pally with the Israelis and made statements like the Zionist regime must be destroyed. If someone says the neo-con regime in the US must be destroyed, does that equal wiping US off the map? If someone says Musharrafs regime must be destroyed, does that equate wiping Pakistan off the map?

Plus look at what the US has done and is doing in Iran

Leave aside the toppling of the democratically elected Mossadegh only because he thought Iran should nationalise its oil, they installed a demagagogic puppet with a well trained death squad called the SAVAK (trained in torture by the CIA and Mossad), which over 25 years wiped out the liberal wing of the country.

Then when the Iranians who are mostly well educated and secular individuals having a history equalling India's, they instigated Saddam to attack Iran and played both sides off against each other. It is well known that the Iranians were victims of chemical weapons supplied by "secular" governments in the west.

The war also gave Khomeini the opportunity to grasp power which he did by adopting the Savak as the Savama, his own secret police.

Still the Iranians persevered and elected finally, good Presidents like Khatami and Rafsanjhani, who made overtures of peace to the US. Khatami presented a comprehensive plan of peace that was accepted by the Europeans but rejected by the US. So also Rafsanjhani. In fact, the US unilaterally has imposed sanctions, economical and political and educational on Iran and on any country that invests in Iran. The reason why Iranians wanted to shift to teh euro is also partly because the US banks do not deal with them. And the US has yet to return the money they "froze" during the revolution.

Plus, they have been playing war games, with US battleships poised in the Persian Gulf.

So who is the psycho here?

Make no mistake, Ahmedinejad faces tough opposition in his own country, and severe criticism, not just from the Parliament but also from teh Ayatollah who all consider hima a moron that will lead the country into war.

"c).Iraq was the biggest mistake.It dethroned the only sensible muslim(but not Islamic) ruler who kicked the believer's ass."

Iraq was necessary. Not for the reasons you think, though. The invasion of Iraq happened soon after Saddam announced his decision to sell oil in Euros. This would not only threaten the fiat currency economy of the US which is based on the rest of the world buying the printed paper the US pumps out, so as to buy oil, but also to prevent Iran from consolidating the Iran Oil Bourse, by which Iran wants to combine with other oil producing countries and sell oil in any currency, a direct threat to the US economy.

The famous "Mission Accomplished" picture was posted immediately after the oil fields were captured and the currency reverted back to dollars, even though this caused a loss to the Iraqi economy.

2 million Iraqis have died and over 70,000 Iraqis and people of other nationalities are being held without charge or trial so that the US can enjoy its disposable consumerist culture.

Not that it did much good, they did not anticipate the resistance of the Iraqis (which is why they are now "helping" the Baathists with arms and funds, in the hope of fuelling a civil war, perhaps; imagine going into Germany to save the people and giving arms and funds to the Nazis so they can protect themselves, duh!).

And that's yet another mess you've got us into, Stanley.

PS One line is for some reason missing in above post. I am including the whole para for clarity

Then when the Iranians who are mostly well educated and secular individuals having a history equalling India's

had toppled the Shah in a revolution

, they instigated Saddam to attack Iran and played both sides off against each other. It is well known that the Iranians were victims of chemical weapons supplied by "secular" governments in the west.

PS One line is for some reason missing in above post. I am including the whole para for clarity

Then when the Iranians who are mostly well educated and secular individuals having a history equalling India's

had toppled the Shah in a revolution

, they instigated Saddam to attack Iran and played both sides off against each other. It is well known that the Iranians were victims of chemical weapons supplied by "secular" governments in the west.

Wow!

Sam, that was quite some compilation of rebuke right there.

Colonialism lives on it will take some time for it to die out. My guess is it has never died down or never will.

"Sam, that was quite some compilation of rebuke right there."

There's lots more where that came from. /Kill Bill pose/


"Colonialism lives on it will take some time for it to die out. My guess is it has never died down or never will."

We learn from history that we do not learn from history.

Sadly you are right. Look at the structural adjustment policies practised on the poor countries by the IMF and WHO. How their fledgling economies are destroyed by faux aid packages. The average cow in the Eu receives a 100 dollars annually in farm subsidies but there is no money to feed the 20,000 children who die everyday from starvation and hunger. Is it any surprise that the Permanent Members of the Security Council are also the biggest arms traders?

Sam: I say something similar to the people who cry foul when something regarding outsourcing comes up.

I ask them why dont they consider the loss of their jobs and their economies a "charity" :) you should see the stares and looks that i have gotten.

Sam..

Good expose of usa-mideast politics.

Mudassar;

Thanks for sharing your beliefs, it is appreciated. On a few isues, we think differently and it is healthy.

Our (I mean, the US, India or Muslims) moral strength comes from being right, whether British apologizes or not,or.... we have to apologize if we are wrong. Nothing is more powerful than being truthful. I beleive in the singular most powerful message of religions - be truthful, you cannot go wrong in the long run.

That is not an inferiority complex, it is the humility in us. Apologizing will never weaken us, rather it gives us peace and power to straight shooters.

Best wishes to you

Mike Ghouse

Sam,

Powerful statements!

I don't know where Bong came up with those lines from.

Last night I was watching Geraldo, he was interviewing a reporter in Khartoum who had just walked out of a church. Geraldo asks, "Don't the Sudanese goverment feel embarassed, what the world thinks of them?"

Wow! Geraldo, you should ask that question to our President as well.

Mike Ghouse

Mike:

Yes, I cannot comprehend how people can be so clueless in the electronic age. If you notice, I did not address his first 3 questions, because I cannot do his thinking for him.

For the rest, there are plenty of facts, I've only touched the tip of the iceberg.

ruvy... thanks for your Hanukkah wishes, and I also hope that you and your family are enjoying yourselves.

I am making latkes tonight but sadly, no, no jelly donuts...:) (I don't think I ever had them at home during the holidays either... what am I missing here?) and we're lighting the candles, but we keep them inside for the same reason as you (wind)... we have them in the "gods room" which is a fixture in most indian households... a tiled room with doors that have bells on them... ours is filled with Ganesha, Krishna, a Tibetan singing bowl and Buddhist prayer beads, a New Testment, an Old Testament, the Bhagavad Gita, and a bunch of other religious texts and implements (oil lamps, incense, etc) :)

smallsquirrel,

Enjoy the latkes. We haven't had any here since I had a heart attack in 2003, but we do have sufganyot from time to time, even though it raises my wife's blood sugar to intolerable levels (she suffers from type II diabetes). From now on she's only having one half of a sufganya at a time. Fortunately they are not larded in fat like the American doughnuts are.

What kind of winter weather do you have in Bangalore? I realized that the far north of the country suffered serious winter, like the north of Israel does near Mount Hermon and on the Heights of Golan, but in the rest of the country, we have a half winter. The first year we lived here my blood was till thick from two decades of living in Minnesota (where it gets down to -25F in the mornings) and I was walking around the absporption center with no coat at all while everyone was bundled in anoraks like little Eskimos from Nome or Anchorage.

The heart attack has robbed my body of the heat it used to put out. I used to run hot like a souped up beater from the 1950's. Now I'm just a pudgy old Jew like everybody else - bundled up in an anorak....

sorry, Mike for hijacking the post...

I have acclimatized to the "winter" here so while it's really not so cold (I think on the coldest night it's in the 50's and during the day it's in the 60's) I am bundled up like I was when I lived in northern massachusetts. funny how the body adapts, nah? bangalore is temperate. never too hot, never too cold, although global warming is effing that up, too.

and if your wife can have sugar, you can have a latke, can't you? (goose/gander and all that)

Ruvy and SS,

Happy Hanukkah,

This is the first year, I have not been to any place... My wife had a major surgery in September for peretonial cancer, and since then, I have been in and out of hospitals.. she is recovering fine and hope three more chemo's she ought to come out of the dullness this causes.

I have been to several snyagogues and pretty much know all the Rabbis in the town and go to ceder dinners and recited the Torah... Same thing with Diwali, never missed it in 50 some years... I am 56 but this year missed every thing including Ramadan Eid, we were in hosopital for that week.

Well, that is life. Oh, every month I used to send greetings to people of all faiths with generally a 50-100 words write up on the significance of that festival and the essence of it. Some of it is posted at www.FoundationforPluralism.com.

For about 10 years, I dedicated about 3 minutes to each festival that week. It on my talk show Radio... but the last three months have been holding me and for a good reason.

Well, Happy Hanukkah, Diwali, eid-ul-adha (bakrid for you SS)and a very merry Christmas to ya'll.

Mike

Mike,

I don't know if you ever listen Arutz Sheva on the internet, but when the Root & Branch Association, for which I am the master of ceremonies, puts on a presentation at the Israel Center in J-lem, I get on radio and do a quick PSA for it. Maybe, you have heard of Tamar Yonah, a woman who has a radio show called Israel National Radio Weekend Edition, which airs on Sunday afternoons at 15:00 (07:00 CST, and 08:00 EST). That's usually when I'm on the air for a minute or two.

So you're the same age I am, eh, Mike? I remember my old boss at Burger King referring sadly to these years as "the maintenance years"....

Ruvy,

I will make an attempt to hear you this Sunday... your boss was right! These are certainly the maintenance years, some time I wish I was thirty and had the time to do all the things I want to do, then I think of Buddha, and say to myself, be content and spend the time enjoying what you have.

Actually I like this part of my life.

It feels good to be an activist and contribute towards the peace.

By the way, some one from Rush Limbaugh's office had called and wanted to have me on his show about this topic. I said, only if I get to say what I want to say. Let's see what they will do.

Again, best wishes for this season.

Mike Ghouse

Hey Mike:

I just saw this
"Their contention was that the Prophet cannot be contained in an image, they were right but..."

in your post. Here is something you may enjoy reading :-)

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/

http://www2.let.uu.nl/Solis/anpt/ejos/pdf4/07Ali.pdf

Hey Mike:

I just saw this
"Their contention was that the Prophet cannot be contained in an image, they were right but..."

in your post. Here is something you may enjoy reading :-)

http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/

http://www2.let.uu.nl/Solis/anpt/ejos/pdf4/07Ali.pdf

"In fact the Taliban made several overtures

1. they asked for evidence
2. they agreed to conduct a trial in Afghanistan
3. they agreed to hand over Osama to a third neutral party."

Wow!!Taliban offered to negotiate?Poor Talibans..and devil US.Are you so dumb to believe that Taliban would have handed over Osama?Last time they were negotiating with the Indian govt when the cut the throat of the Indian engineer.Anyway,hard to wake up people who pretend to be asleep,untill they get the midnight knock on their door.Be happy with the 'wows' of the closet jehadis like Ghouse and company..!!

Sam,

Almost all of the paintings shown in those links and others that I have seen were drawn by the persians, it is rare or almost non-existent else where other than Persia.

Paintings were prohibited from the times of Prophet Muhammad, he was a simple man and beleived that only God is worthy of worship and he asked people not to contain him in an image or a statute.

Almost every head of the state has his bust on a square or a picture hung some place or the other.
Prophet Muhammad was concerned that if he were to allow people to paint his picture, or allow them to plant a statue on the street corners, eventually people would look to his statue in a divine form... He did not want that.

He did not even want a grave built for him, he wanted to be buried like any other soul and over a time, no markings be left of his grave. He did not want people to worship him. He was determined.

And thanks God, Muslims do not worship Prophet Muhammad, nor do they considere him to be divine, he is an ordinary man with a message of God - we have to live in harmony as God has created us all.

My spiritual journey began with a lot of questions and my parents opened all the doors of knowledge to us, we grew up with no inhibitions of any kind to learning. I toggled bewteen being an atheist and an agnosit for a very long time... and it is only recently that I got connected to religon, Karen Armstrong's book Muhammed did much of the turnaround for me, where I learned about him from a humanistic piont of view and not as a divine person, just as I had come to respect all the great spiritual teachers of every religion.

9/11 was a major turn around, when every one was attacking Islam, I started seriously looking at it, till then most Muslims, like most people of any religion did not pay attention to the translations... I did. What was translated was wrong. There are 60 verses that are deliberately distorted by the European translators for a purposeof malintent. On the other hand, the Kings (who claimed to be Muslim Kings - but really selfish kings like any one of them) also mistranslated Qur'aan to incite Muslmis against the other kings. Both sides were using people and by distorting religion to meet their ends. It was this understanding and betrayal of holy texts by the abusers, that drew my sympathy. Thanks God, I delved into it and I find answer for most questions and still in the process of understanding the whole. Let me assert again, every faith is beautiful, we are who we are by default with a few exceptions who convert. I do not subscribe to conversion, if people spend their time in their own faith that they grew up with, they will find spirituality in and there is no need for any one to convert. But gains that is a human endeavor to seek and get.

However, the humans we are, out of respect for Prophet Muhammad , Muslims have indeed built his grave, around which the Masjid in Madina was built. The Saudis, dominated by Wahabbi ideology, who take this idea to the extreme have demolished Prophet Muhammad's birth home. I am divided on it - one the one hand it is a world heritage, on the other, Prophet was right, it is not the symbols that matter, it is the spirituality.

I am glad the Sudanese released Ms.Gibbons and as a Muslim, my apologies to her on the harassment she went through, further I appreciate her genuine affection for children.

Thanks Sam,

Mike Ghouse

Bong:

"Wow!!Taliban offered to negotiate?Poor Talibans..and devil US.Are you so dumb to believe that Taliban would have handed over Osama?Last time they were negotiating with the Indian govt when the cut the throat of the Indian engineer.Anyway,hard to wake up people who pretend to be asleep,untill they get the midnight knock on their door.Be happy with the 'wows' of the closet jehadis like Ghouse and company..!!"

Ah of course, makes sense now. The US was afraid the Taliban would not play ball which is why they bombed the civilians instead and THEN decided Osama is not a priority.

Brilliant!

Mike:

The earliest representation of Mohammed I have seen is from around 693, on a coin from the reign of the Caliph Abdul Malik

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Malik

And Mohammed did have a grave (maybe he did not want one, but thats oral tradition, is it not?, which along with several other structures was destroyed by the Wahabis.

"On April 21, 1925, mausoleums in Jannatul Al-Baqi (Madina) were demolished by King Ibn Saud. In the same year, he also demolished the tombs of holy personalities at Jannat al-Mualla (Makkah) where Muhammad's mother, wife, grandfather and other ancestors are buried. 1925 Madina surrendered to the Wahhabi onslaught. All Islamic heritages were destroyed. The only shrine that remained intact was that of Muhammad. Ibn Jabhan says: "We know that the tomb standing on the Prophet's grave is against our principles, and to have his grave in a mosque is an abominable sin." Tombs of Hamza and other martyrs were demolished at Uhud. Muhammad's mosque was bombarded. On protest by Muslims, assurances were given by Ibn Saud that it will be restored but the promise was never fulfilled. A promise was given that Hijaz will have an Islamic multinational government. This was also abandoned. 1925 AD Jannat al-Mu'alla, the sacred cemetery at Makkah was destroyed along with the house where Muhammad was born. Since then, this day is a day of mourning for all Muslims. Is it not strange that the Wahhabi's find it offensive to have the tombs, shrines and other places of importance preserved, while the remains of their Saudi kings are being guarded at the expense of millions of dollars?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jannatul_Baqee

RUVY

avoiding my questions again?

Sam,

Thanks for sharing some new information - about the coin with Mohammed's image on it. If you have access to the image, I would like to see it. I knew in Iran, images were common, but not else where. Glad to know this new information.

The biggest shocker to me is Wikipedia, rather some one has not updated the information.

The Prophet's mosque must have been restored, it is in pristine condition, in fact the 2nd of the 3 images of Muslim holy place is Masjid-e-Nabwi, The messenger's mosque, I visited it 30 years ago, it was in great shape and I had received a picture of it a month ago, they have expanded it. It is a huge mosque.

When I visited Prophet's tomb in the Masjid-e-Nabwi where they have restricted hours and Saudi guards standing by.... Chasing people who bow their head towards the tomb or wanting to reach and touch the screen around the grave. Prophet Muhammad never wanted any one to worship him, it is God alone he wanted people to worship. The wahhabis take that to extreme, they should let people bow out of reverence. The idiot kings like others to bow towards them, and people should not bow towards the man whom they revere?

As far as bong is concerned, I will leave him alone. If he has a question and an opinion, he is more than welcome to share, and I will be happy to respond, but if he chooses to make a close ended statement, that is his option. I would not engage in it.

I got off from the talk show radio with Christ Plante in Washington DC. It was good indeed for the full hour 9-10 PM EST. I may be on CNN some time this week, if they agree to let me share my opinion without cutting me off, if they do, I will take a walk.

Mike Ghouse

I will make an attempt to hear you this Sunday..

Mike,

I'm usually on Tamar Yonah's Show a little after 16:00 local time (08:00 CST).

Avoiding my questions again?

Parmdan, I haven't the patience to write over and over again the same things - or even to copy and paste. It's Friday and we have to prepare for the Sabbath, which comes before 16:00 local time, only a few hours away. Go look at my articles at Blogcritics, (the link is at comment 42 upthread), and my comments here to get a good idea of my views and for probable answers to your questions.

ruvy... yeah, don't bother engaging him...he spouts off but clearly doesn't know how to or want to read the answers to his queries.

ignore! :)

smallsquirrel,

Of course I can have a latke! I find them particularly unattractive since the heart attack because they remind me of the morning after I enjoyed them the last time (when I got the heart attack).

Shabbat Shalom,
Reuven

oh god! yes I guess you would NOT want them then. That is even worse than not wanting to look at a food that you got stomach upset from, I would guess! YIKES... glad you are in good health now. shabbat shalom.

A few Muslims, like the few neo cons, are distractive and out of focus, here is one such dialogue:

Salaam,

Dear Raafia,

I respectfully submit that both of us are doing, what we believe are important to us.

The issues you are talking about are important as well. No issue should be pushed to the corner.

Our limitations are;

1) We cannot utter all the injustices in one breath.

2) We cannot express all issues in one word.

Given that limitation, we have to deal one issue at a time, that is my personal preference, you may have your own style, but all are honing on issues.

Please work on the issues that are important to you and I will work on the issues that are important to me. Together, God willing we may achieve a few things.

I reiterate my standing on the usage of the word Kufffar. As a Muslim I do not subscribe to the meaning you are giving in splitting the world into Kuffars and Muslims, that sounds like George Bush's imitation - either you are with us or with them. It will not cut for me, it is an extreme position. Very few, yes very few Muslims subscribe to that idea, the Majority follows the middle path - getting along with every one and creating peaceful world, I am on that path. Indeed, that is the guidance from God. Qur'an, Al-Hujurat, Surah 49:13: "O mankind! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. The noblest of you, in sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Allah Knows and is Aware."

I believe in what is good for Muslims has got to be good for others and vice-versa. I strongly believe in the verses of Qur'aan, do unto others as you would want others to do for you.

Please continue on working what you are guided by, and Insha Allah, I will follow the path that guides me. Let's respect each others work.
Jazak Allah Khair

Mike Ghouse

.............................................

In a message dated 12/4/2007 10:23:12 A.M.

No Mike

Today Saudia and Sudan are not the subjects..........except by CNN Headlines. If Muslims would search the world and create their own headlines, I am sure neither one of these issues would make page 25.

We are becoming more and more like the kuffar with this short attention span. When you read Quran, the first issue is always Allah's Oneness, Heaven and Hell. This should always be first and foremost in our minds. Second, we are to be mannerly and just.

If we make the issue of this rape (alleged) or this woman who defamed the Prophet, a headline issue, then we are being UNjust to the many other plights that Muslims are facing.

If I am being choked by a burglar. and you are in the room with me and cleaning the furniture, that is unjust. This doesn't mean the furniture is not dirty or the floor doesn't need sweeping, but in light of the fact I am being attacked and you are in the room, you have forfeited my rights over you as my Muslim brother, because you have forsaken me.

We are to honor our brothers, not oppress them, not forsake them.

So my last word on this issue is that we need to stop focusing on the minor issues and focus on the major oneos. I am pretty sure if you scour the news all over the world, and compare it to the status of Muslims and Islam in the world today, both of these issues would be non-issues.

.........................................

Raafia,

Appreciate your note and dialogue.

You have made a few assumptions, one of them is that you are the only one standing up for Muslims and other's are not. The reality is you are one of the 1.5 Billion Muslims as I am, each one of us is doing the work, some less than their share, and some more than they can handle.

Please look at the situation.

7 years ago - other topic

If It was a year ago - many topics

A month ago we talked about different things

Today, Sudan and Saudi Arabia's situation is the talk and focus

Tomorrow, it may be Iran again.

Please know that in one single breath, we can talk only one thing that needs attention.

Islam means peace to me, it is not a word to flaunt around, it is the actions we take. Working for reducing the conflicts and fostering goodwill.

To me the world exists as human beings with different belief sets worshipping and bowing to the same divine. Every human believes in creator, or cause of creation in his or her own way and no one is denying the existing of the cause of creation AKA God.

Hence, the word Kuffar has to be debated much, and is not a wedge to divide people and to me no one at this time is a Kuffar in the sense it was used then.

We need to look at the world from a larger context, the context that God has shown to all, including us, the Muslims. Please remember, God is not the God of Muslims exclusively, he is God of the Universe, and it is in the very first verse of Qur'aan, and Qur'aan concludes in the very last chapter Naas by addressing all humans and not Muslims - Let's not depreciate the word of God by dividing people. We are one world and one community and we have to create peace among ourselves, we have got to know each other, again refer to Qur'an, Al-Hujurat, Surah 49:13: "O mankind! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. The noblest of you, in sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Allah Knows and is Aware."

Mike Ghouse

.........................................

In a message dated 12/4/2007 9:27:28 A.M.

I am not denying that these two miniscule issues are not issues. They are issues. But the response i see from the Muslims, you would think that these are the worst things Muslims are enduring. By far, they are not. You seem to be a man of intelligence, thus i assume that you are aware of the plight of Muslims all over the world.

Are you telling me, with all of the death and destructions muslims face, that these two issues are of the highest priority? Sufficient for you to go on this global email campaign?

I see people quote ayaat from Quran to support these two incidents, but I have yet to see these same people quoting the ayat where Allah says, When a fasiq person comes to you with news, to verify it? Have you spoken to the judges and the victim? Have you even verified if there was a rape? There are many versions of what happened here, we are NOT to automatically to condemn neither the judges nor the victim.

This is not professional, nor Islamic, but rather purely knee-jerk reactions, based upon headlines from the kuffar. And why these two cases? When there are instances in the world where Muslims are enduring far worse treatment.

One more thing, Mike. Anytime a Muslim is standing side-by-side with the kuffar and attacking another Muslim, he should reflect his position.

You, and a host of others, are busy attacking muslims, with the kuffar beside you. THIS is not behavior of a muslim

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Dear Raafia,

Indeed, I am outraged at the treatment meted out to Muslim women and all women all over the world. As Muslims we have to speak out against any injustice; be it against Muslims or any one without distinction.

This week it was Ms. Gibbons that is harassed, so we speak out and express our outrage. We did condemn the mistreatment of Saudi Women. Ms. Gibbons did not insult our prophet at all. With all the love and endearment she named the Teddy.... she is not aware of out cultural sensitivity, we have to forgiver or take a minute to explain to her. Islam is about caring and understanding and not about violence. We are rightly outraged. It does no diminish our outrage at the patriarchal societies and how badly they treat women around the world.

The idiocy of Sudan and Saudi - reflects on all of us Muslims and we have to speak out, their laws may be bad, but not Islam's.

Mike Ghouse

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In a message dated 12/3/2007 2:08:18 P.M.

What I really find outrageous is how when we live in a time where there are Muslims being killed by the thousands, and jailed, and raped. Their lands are being invaded, and they are being oppressed by Muslim dictators, how can we even show the slightest concern over a woman who defames the Prophet?

Do we ignore the plight of the Muslims (like the kuffar) but we get outraged when a headline is used to excite us against Islam and the Muslims?

How can we have so much concern over ONE woman being jailed, when Muslim women are being jailed all over the world?

Do we care for the kuffar more than we are concerned over our Muslim sisters?

Yes Mike, where is YOUR outrage?

"Ah of course, makes sense now. The US was afraid the Taliban would not play ball which is why they bombed the civilians instead and THEN decided Osama is not a priority.

Brilliant!"

The US was not afraid the your talibanis would not play ball.It was sure.We have the examples of the Talibanis playing ball in case the Buddha statues,Kandahar Hijacking,cutting the throat of the Indian engineers while telling the world that they are negotiating.You are just too brilliant not to see that.And the US did not bomb the innocent civilians knowningly.Your brave and innocent Islamic warriors ran away to their rat holes,leaving the civilians exposed to the bombings.The US has expressed regret over the few civilians bombed.In any case,when u r fighting a enemy that consists of animals,some collateral damage is bound to happen.

My question remains: Why is the so called god called allah,whose name is always followed by the phrase 'most merciful',so dreaded by his followers?Why should mohammed's name should be so sacrosanct not be given to a Teddy but children?Why then is Mohammed Azharuddin not being asked to change his name,after he made crores out of match fixing?(of course he went on to the usual muslim breast beating after being caught').Is it because the original mohammed was also a criminal?

Bong:

Read my lips:

1. Osama is not a priority
2. There are no WMDs in Iraq

oops we killed a couple of million people for NO REASON

Dear Mike,

I agree that apologising for one's wrongs is a healthy thing. But the actions of state that are not islamic (states) but secular states with a veil of islamic identity to confuse the layman are not the responsibility of the individual muslim. There is no way on God's earth that I would apologise for saudi's actions. Especially when Saudi Arabia was created by the British and is today protected by the Americans and British.

More effort is needed on an individual muslims part to present on a daily basis the true islam in dealings with muslims and non-muslims alike.

I work with non-muslims all day and have done for the last seven years. Often these questions pop up and I always seek to present true islam and give the customers an indepth guide to the true nature of these regimes.

On a global level the muslim ummah faces many macro challenges and these can only be met by a political entity that protects the interests of muslims and presents the true light of islam. Witness the letters the prophet Mohammad s.a.w sent to the monarchs and leaders of the then empires inviting them to Islam. All islam is the confirmation of previous revelations. It calls to the worship of one God. It is revelation confirmed by the bible, torah and even the hindu vedas.

The global media barons, banking moguls have combined with the zionists to put muslims on the back foot and try to get them to leave their deen and make them feel ashamed and embarrassed. It is a fullfillment of the hadith that near the end of times the holding onto islam will be like holding onto hot iron.

If belief in One Lord, One Rasool, one Ummat is wrong in todays world then I am more than happy to be wrong! There will indeed be a day when We will be proven right and the shallow and superficial will then be ashamed of their deeds.

1.Osama is not a priority:

Since the brave Islamic warrior is not coming out of his ratohole,it makes sense to prioritise the destruction of jehadi sleeper cells and funding network.Difficult for a muslim to understand for a muslim,Sam

2.No WMDs found,still people killed:I have already said,Iraq was the biggest mistake as it removed the only sensible muslim rules.Btw,how many of the killings are actually done by the followers of that merciful god?

1. "Since the brave Islamic warrior is not coming out of his ratohole,it makes sense to prioritise the destruction of jehadi sleeper cells and funding network."

FBI: we have no hard evidence linking Osama with 9/11

But that won't stop us from attacking two countries that have NOTHING to do with it!!!

2. Oops Iraq was a mistake. But don't worry Iran has nuclear weapons! Oops it doesn't. But so what? Its still a danger to its neighbors *thinking of last 200 years of history when US only invaded 25 nations through military interventions while Iran invaded zero; , the US also toppled democratic governments, sent death squads to torture innocents after training them in the school of Americas, threw two atomic bombs on civilian populations and supported dictators and depsots while supplying 30% of arms worldwide*


See? :rolleyes:

3."Btw,how many of the killings are actually done by the followers of that merciful god?"

You mean where the US is arming and funding Sunni militias that are against the majority Shias, just happen to be supporters of the Baathist regime the US toppled, are against the US and the elected Iraqi government?

Sorta like going into Germany and funding and arming the Nazis then crying out that Germans are killing Germans. Duh! ORLY?

Dear Mudassar,

Salaams,

I appreciate your sentiments, about not apologizing for the acts of some one else. It does not make sense on the face of it.

However, it does make sense to let the other people know that what the Sudanes and Saudis are doing is their own culture and has nothing to do with your or my Religious culture. We are linked with them by our religion, just as Hindus, Jews or whoever is linked in the world and it behooves for us to speak up.

We may have a genuine difference in understanding the purpose of religion, and we have to honor that, and that is what pluralism is all about, accepting and respecting each others uniqueness.

Worshiping God is certainly important, the message of God is same - live in peace with yourselves and with others. Whether it is expressed in Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Jainism, Christianity, Bahai, Buddhist, Sikh, Shinto, Wicca, Zoroastrianism and others, it is the same essence. It is an affirmation of values in all religions and it should not negate other values because of the value set one is aware of.

It is easy to blame others for what is made of Muslims, they are not the one's enduring it, we are. We have the freedom to be down and depressed or up and upbeat.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong in
belief in One Lord, One Rasool or one Ummat. As beauty is in the eyes of beholder, faith is in the heart of the believer. No matter what faith, it is beautiful to the believer.

I don't believe one faith negates the other. I don't believe, your penchant for apple pie is any lower or higher than my taste for peach cobbler. I let you enjoy Islam, and we let Ruvy enjoy Judaism, Sam his christianity and the other gentleman his faith Hinduism. All are beautful, God's command is not to create copy cats and duplicates but doing good to others, the ultimate goal of all faiths is nirvana, salavation, mukti, Moksha, nijaat... heck it is freedom and peace that comes from Justice.

Mike Ghouse

hey sam,
that's a lot of gas coming from a defender of the talibani animals..why the muslims are kiling each other ?just because US is arming them?there is nothing in that sick cult that tells them to kill at each opportunity?

Long list of US 'atroctities' but what about ur favourite muslims? neway,contnue cursing the US untill the taliban animals give u the mid night knock..

Mike by defending the Taliban you dont do yourself justice.We in India still remember their behaviour during IA hijack at Kandahar.The US war was justified.

Let's not forget all the terrorists harboured by Taliban and trained in their training camps, who came to India to murder Indians. Mikey wants to carry credibility with his "Indian brothers", even though he cares more about his precious terrorist friends being hammered by the US Army in Afghanistan. I'm not interested in that kind of "brotherhood", Mikey. That kind of "brotherhood" isn't worth a crap.

Where did you get the idea that I support Talibans? They are in my curse every day and I have condemned them every opportunity I get.

Mike Ghouse

If I don't criticize the US Admin (not Americans) and place checks against the wrong things we are doing, then that is not being truthful and amounts to jingoism. condemn what is wrong whether it comes from Islamists, American Admin,neocons, zionists or hindutvadis.

I take pride in our democractic institutions, they are live today because people who stand up against wrong doing of our president.

Mike Ghouse

Sanjay, can you distinguish between Talibans and Afghanistan, Americans and neocons, Indians and Hindutvadis, Muslims and Islamists? If you can, welcome to the straight shooters club.

Mike

GIBBONS CASE PROVED YET AGAIN THE BENEFITS OF BIENG BORN WITH THE RIGHT SKIN COLOUR.A HANGING OR BEHEADING WAS IN ORDER

abbe Kela

I asked you before, do you work on a ship?

Did you know there are many muslims in jails in the UK without being charged.

NO CHANDRA,I GOT BANNED,THIS TIME I PLAN ON INTIMIDATING THEM INTO NOT BANNING ME BY USING CAPS.
MUSLIMS IN JAIL IN UK ,JUST PROVES WHAT I SAID ABT SKIN COLOUR

We won't ban you,we'll just ignore your caps, or delete them until you use normal case.

A Y A N H I R S I A L I

Ayan Hirsi Ali has written a piece in the international Herald Tribune called "Silence of Moderates" on December 7th, which has a lot of similarities and sequneces - of the several odd ball events, she has picked the same events as I have in my article posted in this thread "Where is the Muslim outrage" on December 1.

Here is the link, what are your thoughts?
http://iht.com/articles/2007/12/07/opinion/edali.php

Mike Ghouse