Desicritics Comments on Stanley Kramer, Rama Sethu and The Inheritors of Wind

Comment by lieben

Tue, 3 Mar 2009 18:27:31 EST

Interessante Informationen.

Comment by lieben

Tue, 3 Mar 2009 18:26:51 EST

Interessante Informationen.

Comment by Man Singh

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:07:36 EDT

PH, I have no reason to disagree with you other then three points: 1. Have any scinetist ever measured teh age of Rocks present in Ramsetu? have you ever seen that report of any such statememnt from any geologists(This is not area of archeology at all) 2. All age measuring techniques you have mentiones have level of error in million years at least. 3. Even if we do not have `modern' scientific evidence to verify a cultural heritage monument, should we destroy it even when other alternatives are available to carry out development work? Religion and Science in India is never at confrontation opposite to Cristianity and Islam. Vidhya and Avidhya both are said to be equally importamt in Ishopnishad(shloka 7 to 11). A scientific mind is never pessimistic. who knows tomorrow scinetists will find `evidence' as they are finding new evidences day after day for new things. Therefore it doesn'nt make sense to strat destroying cultural entities only becasue `we do not have evidence today'. Moves , opposition views, critical analysis are fine. But strating destruction is altogather senseless and that's why every roght thinking Indian need to oppopse destruction of Raam Setu.

Comment by PH

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:29:43 EDT

Anish, Thanks, I'm glad I could point you to these. If u liked 12 Angry Men, you'll probably like these as well

Comment by PH

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:19:48 EDT

Sanjay, I'm not sure how to respond, because although I'm more on your side than not, I really can't seem to explain it well:)) For the record: I'm against a bans on books, movies in general. I did mention the Scopes trial and Biblical fundamentalists. It would've been gratuitous to bring in Mulsim equivalents in this article, but I've done so in others where applicable. Whether the site should be destroyed or not, is another issue-one that I don't know much abt, to be honest. My argument is more with the spirit in which one expects scientific bodies (ASI, in this case) to "lay off" from even making historical claims about heritage sites. This is much like the creationist lobbying, IMHO. Thanks!

Comment by PH

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:08:25 EDT

Mansingh, I appreciate your comments and thank you for the same. I can't get into a debate about the Vedic time system for a couple of reasons. One, I'm ignorant about it. Two, web debates aren't the medium to really engage in such lengthy subjects. But modern science (I'm not sure the label "Western" science is accurate-science, as our knowledge of the world, is not hemisphere based) does have some pretty reliable methods to date events-Sediments in rocks, Radiocarbon dating (based on C14's decay rate)Dendochronology (tree rings, used to calibrate Radiocarbon dates), genetics (Molecular clock, Bayesian methods, Principal Component Analysis, etc.)-none of which refer to local historical traditions, oral or written. They may be wrong of course, but the error is unlikely to be too great. In any case, until that happens, it makes sense to refer to these dates. As for the 8.4 million clock cycle, modern science would be pretty hard pressed to agree. Please do not take this personally, web debates tend to get noisy, and thts the other reason why this will be my last word on this:) Best wishes.

Comment by anish

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 00:42:37 EDT

thanks for the movie recommendations. i love 12 angry men.

Comment by Sanjay

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:06:27 EDT

PH, the current flare-up over Ramayana is the attempt to destroy a heritage site which is revered by the Hindus. If someone were to campaign for destruction of a Muslim site, they will be hearing the din over it for the rest of their lives. No politician can even dare to question the veracity of the Koran or the Bible. The Da Vinci Code and the Satanic Verses are banned from India. So it's not credible to say "let's treat Hindu culture as abstract and thus allow its heritage sites to be destroyed" while at the same time allowing that "Islam and Christianity must be protected from criticism, and their holy sites must never be touched". Hey, if you want to apply a certain standard, then apply it consistently, and not selectively. Ethnically selective liberalism isn't liberalism at all.

Comment by Man Singh

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:12:22 EDT

PH you are comparing tow altogather different things. Histority of ramayana is being investigated for long times. Historicity of Ramayana is being investigated for long time. The most negative and most positive interpretations has been written and published in India and abroad incldung some of the most derogatory as `Hindu samaj ke path bhrashtak Goswan=mi Tulsidas' by Sarita magazine of athiests of India. But Hindus never reacted to any of such pursuits in spite of knowing pretty well that that all such attempts were mischevious. You were suppose to compare up to this point and could have easy coparaed the attitude of christian fundamentalists and Hindus based on the reaction of two on intellectual pursuit of some prehistoric writings. Humanity should appreciate the tolerance of Hindus of all favourable or unfavourable outcomes of limited scinetific investigations carried out on prehistoric lietrature of Hindus. Raamsetu issue is altogather iddiferent. Here situation is as if a group of people is starting destroying statue of jesus christ based on some half cokked historical infromation that `Historically jesus never existed' and this statue of 2000 yr old is hindering our developmental project. Films are fine Mr PH. Articles are fine Mr PH. Archeological reports based on limites research and evidence are fine. But starting destroying the prehistorical heritage is ridiculous. Those who have read Ramayan know pretty well that it says that ramayana is ever existing katha. Even when Ram was born Ramayan was existing. becasue as per Vedic system of time calculation, Time is a circular variable not a straight line assumed to be by western system. Vedic system says time repeats itself every 8.64 Million years ie one Kalp or manu. Events of one kalpa are sometimes nararted even in second kalpa by trikaal darshi saints liek vedvyasa and Dharma is based on such ever existing set of principles. It is difficult to gigest for our generation whose minds are trained in western system of `straight line time variation' vis a vis vedic system of `Circular form of time variation'. Now which system is correct has to be decided yet. Scientifc understading is changing very fast and hence we should not be in hurry to destriy our pre historic heritage based on limited and ever changing assumptions of modern scinces. More over we should compare apple with an apple and not apple with an orrange. Your article misses this point.

Comment by PH

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:14:33 EDT

Sanjay, Thanks for your comments. You said, if you're going to diminish the faith of those who revere the Ramayana,....... You're preaching for a world of double standards and apartheid If you used "You" in the sense of "one" (as in "if one is doing xyz"), I can't find much to disagree with you. I hope you didn't mean that I was being selective, because I wasn't, period. And reverence for the Ramayana is what I'm arguing for, not against. I said that those who read it literally diminish it, not those who revere it as an epic. Hope that clarifies.

Comment by PH

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:32:02 EDT

Aaman, Thanks for those encouraging words, I'll keep that in mind. And sadly, I may run out of classic films, but I'm sure we won't run out of contemporary events :)

Comment by Sanjay

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 03:07:02 EDT

"The Ramayana is such writing; reading it literally diminishes it. Those who do so have inherited nothing but wind." PH, I'm an atheist, but if you're going to diminish the faith of those who revere the Ramayana, why not apply the same standards to Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, etc? You're trying to create a world of compartmentalized standards, whereby some ethnicities get more respect for their culture and traditions than others do. You're preaching for a world of double standards and apartheid. If politicians are allowed to scoff at faith in the Ramayana by claiming it as superstition, why can't politicians be allowed to scoff at the Koran or the Bible in the same way? You don't see that same freedom of commentary being allowed towards other religions, because our overwhelmingly biased liberal media won't allow it. They don't feel any obligation towards even-handedness. If BJP takes a stand, the biased left-wing media rush to call it a 'fatwa', but if the racial DMK party were to make a similar announcement, you won't see the media apply the same 'fatwa' label. Hell, even if a Muslim group declares a fatwa on somebody, you won't see the liberal media call it a fatwa. There are different standards being applied to different ethnic groups, and that is naturally causing heartburn. That type of asymmetry is NOT what secularism is about, and that's why such behavior is complained about as PSEUDO-SECULARISM. A lot of barely-literate Third World left-wing activists have little idea of what secularism is, or how to practice it. They've simply been fed the word, and have seized upon it as a spearhead to target religions or ethnic groups they don't like. Until we acknowledge the prevalence of this problem, we can't have an honest debate.

Comment by Aaman

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 02:21:32 EDT

Excellent analogies - You should do more comparisons of contemporary events and classic films.