Can Non-Christians Join Christian University Groups?

If the purpose of a Christian club to be an exclusive club for the Christian students, there
the purpose is lost. If a non-Christian attending the club for the sole purpose of creating a problem, then that person has no right
to join the club.

A non-Hindu is not permited in a Hindu Temple, but in most other religions, believers of other
faith can participate. Jesus Christ, when He took the last breath " the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom".
Christianity is an open religion, as such, students of other religions must have the freedom
to participate in Christian University Groups.

Yes Some Hindu temples don'nt allow non Hindus to enter due to security reasons in the past. Hindus were attacked looted cheated and converted by muslims for around 1000 years by muslims and around 300 years by European chrsitains.

Therefore defeated hindus were left no choice but to ban entery of non Hindus to prtect santity of the temples.

These restrictions are creation of historical reasons and do not have scriptural or religious sanction.It is absurd altogather to equate Security concerns in a temples as part of Hinduism.

Otherwise Hindusim recommends to see divine in all human beings, all living beings and even in non living entities. Hindus went through certain historical disorders when landlords appointed by foreign invaders exploites society and made a part of it untouchables.

All such absurdities are social ills originated out of political / economic situation is 1000 years of slavery and has nothing to do with Hinduism.

Yes crooks with an intention to convert Hindus of course equate Hindusim with Untouchability and widoburning both of which are creation of landlords appointed by foreign invaders to india who enslaved us.

There are clear evidence in sanskrit literature that upto 6th century there was no untouchabilty among Hindus.

kadambari written by Baanbhatta describes how vanshampayan parror carried by a chandal princess was presented in teh court of King Shudrak and Shudrak influenced by atelent of princes and parrort greeted the princess and married her. Even dr Amedkar refered this in his works.

Untouchability came into existence during landlord system established by muslim invaders. Muslims used to practice slavery. landlorrds strated slavery equivalent in India. Hinduism has nothing to do with this inhuman tradition.

It will die along with its root ie Landlordism and its happening.

Even in Ramayana Utterkand Kagbhushandi tells how in his previous birth he was born in shudra family. he was very rich and a guru gave him guru mantra. he was chanting mantra in the temple and ...It is chopia 97-110 of utterkandam.

In that Kaliyuga I was born in the city of Ayodhya and got the body of a sudra (a
member of the labouring and artisan classes). A devotee of Lord siva ....
Seeing me outwardly so humble, my Lord, the BaŒhmana taught me as his own son. The great Brahmana imparted to me a mystic formula sacred to Lord sambhu and gave me every kind of good
advice. I used to go to a temple of Lord Ýiva and repeat the formula there with unbounded
ostentation and conceit in my heart.....
One day I was repeating sivas Name in a temple sacred to Lord Hara, ...

It is very clear that even shudras used to worship in temples and Hindu religious scriptures never put any such restriction on anybody entry in the temple.

Therefore I call upon all christians missioneries and other associates of foreign invaders to stop equating `social ills' of society in the times of slavery equal to Hinduism.

Divorce and drug addiction are rampant in christian societies around the globe. Does it mean that christianity preaches divorce and drug addiction?

Church burnt alive thousands of Scientists in Europe . Does it means christinaity hates science?

Church looted and captured around a million issueless women in europe and captured their proprty by declaring them `witches' does it mean christinity preaches crimes against women?

All right thinking people say big `NO' to my statements. Exactly the same way sociel ills can not be equated with principles of religion and hence equating untouchability, non entry of non hindu to temples in medival days, widow burning by landlords are origin of socio political scene of contemporary India enslaved by foreigners and Hindusim has nothing to do with it.

As Hinduism is Dharma ie a set of 10 Universal values copied by all religion on the earth.

Daya(Kindness), Dhriti(Tolerance), Khsama(forgiveness) Shoch(neatness) dama(disciplened sensual pleasure) asteya(non stealing) Indriyanigrah(discipline in physical activities) Dhee(Intellect), vidya(education), satya(Truth) akrodha (free from anger).

This set of 10 values if inculcated in a human will enable a person to see God with his own eyes.

All religions of teh world, all ways of worship in one for or the other are tols to inculcate these values.

All religions have copeid basic commandments from here.

hence such universal philosophy can never recommend any human being not allowed to enter a temple.

Yes just like a Doctor prescribes different medicine to diferent patiotents for same illness depending upon allergy history or metabolism of individual, Hindu Seers also recommended different paths to people of different natural instincts and nature of their profession.

For intellectuals one method, for warriors another method, for bussiness class thid method and for working class 4th.

Bhakti was recommended to be suitable to all.

hence humanity has been classified in Hindusim to ensure shortest route to spritual liberation to whole humaniy depending upon their state of mind and nature of work they do (which affects availaibility of time to worship and intellectual level).

Unfortunately foreign invaders and their associated wrongly called such scinetific approach in sprituality as discrimination of lower cast wrongly attempting demonising the victims. Truth is that it were the landlords who expolited the landless poor people and made untouchable and not religion. of course certain greedy and corrupt priests are always their to side with tyrrants in all rleigions Hindusim no exception.

I call upon all Indians to reanalyse the propaganda of associates of foreign invaders against hinduism in the light of my arguments. I request all ex-Hindus also to re-evaluate their decision to convert to foreign religions and associating with foreign invaders in the light of these arguments I have put forwards. Abandon foreign religions who are attempting to destroy religions of Indian origin and help their native culture to surviwe in the coming milleneum.

look intelligently what's happening in teh world. 166 christian countries are working day and night to establish christianity in teh world using all their ecnomic and political might.
They have their associates in non christian countries like India as well. Its everybody's guess?
66 Muslim countries are working day and night with full economic and political might including terror tactics to establsih Islam and eliminate the rest.

But Hindus are surviwing and flourishing even without having a single vote in UN. There is not a single Hindu country on the earth in spite of that , in spite of zero economic n political clout Hindu concepts of humanity like vegetarianism, Yoga, Meditation are spreading around the globe like wildfire.

What you call it? Divine Intervention?
paganism in Europe and America is getting reviwed. native religions of South America are reestablishing themselves realising the exploitative and agressive nature of christianity.

I am sure one day ex-Hindu who converted to Christianity or Islam will start introspecting ? heyy why we associated with foreign religion. What's new in them other then imperialism on our country. Why should we be the party in destruction of our own civilisation. Let's protect and serve our mother no matter how ugly illetral and sick she it.

All religions of Indian origin are like our mother as they are roiginated from soil of India. yes we respect others mother also and respect foreign religions as well in spite of their invasions on ours. But it is so mean to dump our old sick illetral mother after seeing a rich sexie women ready to adopt us.

Think over it?
ways of worship

Let us not talk of taking things with a pinch of salt! I am hypertensic, and have been advised by my doctor to give up free salt.
But seriously, any Civil Rights activist who sets up a group, union, alliance, forum, or club, does passively, if not actively, want to keep out those who do not agree with him. The others are free not to join a group they do not like. They cannot be gang pressed into doing so. That goes for Vegetarianism as much ass it goes for the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh which may not want human rights activists among its ranks lest they upset its applecart, or teach the wrong [right] ideology to its own cadre.
Cooperative societies, entities formed under the Companies Act will fall short of the same high ideals based formula. By the way, even if you spend your own money, you cannot buy a majority share in any company without its consent -- the others will be kept out. And finally, nation states are based on the same inclusiveness and exclusiveness -- keep others out, keep your own in. This is the root of the anti conversion laws of India -- keeping the stable doors shut.

People who visit this web-site should know that Mr. John Dayal (above) is a fundamentalist in the same mold as the nuts from the Madrassas or Mr. Narendra Modi. Please do a simple google to know what I am talking about.

rgds

Debate the message, not the person, Chandra

So it seems then that christians are the only ones that can proselytize then? that would be what this kind of exclusion amounts to. it seems like "we're right, so we don't need your kind here, but thanks!...."

and hey, A.S... I am not a Hindu and I have been allowed in temples all over India... not only allowed in, but welcomed and blessed by the pandit... and we had a Hindu wedding... how many priests would perform a wedding for a christian marrying a non-christian.... NONE! that kind of exclusivity is ugly!.... also, the pope's recently declaration that catholicism is the only true christian faith is even more crap... why must catholicism be so very exclusive... I think Jesus must be really pissed that things have gotten so far away from what he intended!

Aaman

I am sorry!! If you feel that me informing other readers about this Gentleman is inappropriate to this forum, you always have the option of editing me out. I have no complaints on that front.

As long as we have people around (Like Mr. Dayal) who promote hatred across society, one should protest and inform others. We should recognise such people in our midst and sanction them quickly. Only then can we survive as a pluralist nation.


rgds

Chandra, I am with you on this one. Aaman, if Abu Hamza posted on this site, on one of the Islam-linked threads, I would expect to be informed who that is. So why not inform the forum about John Dayal who is so incredibly full of hatred for India and Hindus?

And before you rap me on the knuckles for the Abu Hamza comparison, you may want to look up John Dayal's words and actions over the years. He works that constitutionally guaranteed freedom of speech and "secularism" to the hilt just like Hamza did for so many years in the UK.

Besides Chandra's message was an "equal opportunity religious nuts" one and not only directed at Christian fanatics.

Smallsquirrel, may I explain my statement. While attending 7th grade, near the school, there was a big Hindu Temple. My friend who is
from a Christian family, by mistake went with his
Hindu friend, inside the Temple. The matter became a big issue " a non-Hindu entered the
Temple, so KALASAM has to be conducted to purify
the Temple". It was expensive and the poor boy
was caught in a big problem, finally, some of the
educated Hindu people got involved and the matter
was resolved without creating a religious war in our community.

Yes, I do agree that in some Hindu Temples,
anybody can enter, especially in the Western countries. But, the old system is still very rigid in many of the northern States of India and
in some interior part of India. Recently, one
cabinet Minister of India, Mr. Vayalar Ravi was
caught up in a mess while conducting a religious
ceremony at the famous Temple Guruvayoor in Kerala. The problem was started because Mr. Ravi's wife was a Christian.

A.S.... OK well that might be, but I never had a problem anywhere in UP, Karnataka, Maharashtra or Tamil Nadu... also went into a few in Delhi...

villages in the north might be more strict, I guess. but I have never had a problem...

My friend Smallsquirrel's comments make interesting reading.

Under the current Christian personal law, a Christian may marry a non Christian in a church ceremony, legally. The priest will officiate. The BJP government wanted to change this law and make it that Church weddings were only valid and permissible if both partners were Christian. The hidden reason for trying to force this change on the community was that some political elements said Christians were proselytising and making forcible and fraudulent conversions by getting their daughters to entice innocent Hindu youth!!! This is, unfortunately, a true story. I of course agree no Church will allow a Hindu hawan and full fledged wedding in front of the altar though there may be no objection to such a wedding ceremony in the community hall or grounds hired for such a purpose if the management agreed. In the same logic, I do not think any Mandir will allow a full fledged Catholic Mass in their Holy of Holies... and so on. I would be foolish to expect otherwise. This is not a display of fundamentalism. It is nothing more than reserving the right to admit or not admit others on their private property. And by the way, anyone of any religion can attend a church ceremony, including worship ceremonies, anywhere in India and at most times of the day.
For those who call me a fundamentalist and put me in the same rank as Narendra Modi of Gujarat do so for motives they do know best. I do not deem it an honour to be categorized with Mr. Modi. The goggle search will turn up tonnes of material where I challenge Mr. Modi and others of his ilk -- in Hindutva, Islamic groups and among Sikhs and Christians for that matter. I am proud to be a component of Civil Society seeking a place in the sun for the Christians as a Citizen of Free, Democratic and Secular India.
The Indian Constitution is firmly in one hand, and the Bible in the other hand. These are compatible books, sacred in their own right. I do not insult religions, holy books prophets, tenets and norms.

I do challenge persecution, grabbing of property and any law such as the one that bans non Hindu religious activity from seven hills of the Tirumalla range -- the first time bits of Indian soil have been made out of bounds to its own non-Hindu citizens and where their Freedom of Faith has been put on hold in an absolutely illegal manner. I do challenge such laws, and the one I heard today which says that Christians who die in Hardwar cannot be buried in that city's Christian graveyard because the city is holy to one religion. Perhaps I will write about double standards in India, and in the West, in another article there.

Looking forward to the articles

john... I was not intimating that a church should allow a hindu wedding inside, or vice-versa... I was saying that if the hindu wants to marry a catholic in a catholic church they must either convert or forget it. there is no middle ground. but no one asked me to convert to hinduism when I married my husband in a traditional ceremony conducted in a mantap by a pujari.

I should also point out that some other christian sects, such as congregationalists, etc. are not so elitist... but these churches do not exist in India because they also do not conduct missionary work. These are also the sects that tend to be more accepting of homosexual parishoners, etc.

Mr. Dayal can claim all he wants but he is a double speaking fundamentalist. The difference between him and Narendra Modi is that one is open fanatic and the other a cunning one. Both are equally dangerous.


Mr. Dayal has over the last many years worked hard to ensure that conversion efforts donot face any resistance at all. He has powerful backers amongst fundamentalist nuts in the US as well as powerful christian politicians in India. No wonder he is now a 'member' of the National Integration council.

Anyway, here is an example of how he 'attempts' to offend and provoke people of other religions

John Dayal: Virbhadra Singh had of course invited every known sect of Hinduism [defined not as religion but as a Way of Life by Supreme Court judgment delivered by the then Chief Justice J S Verma] to set up shop in the hills.


Actual Statement by Justice Verma: It is a fallacy and an error of law to proceed on the assumption that any reference to Hindutva or Hinduism in a speech makes it automatically a speech based on HINDU RELIGION..

Note the last two words HINDU RELIGION. The honorable justices were referring to use of the word Hindutva and Hinduism AS being hostile to other religions. Nowhere were they suggesting that Hindu is not a religion. But Mr. Dayal cleverLY picks up one part of the sentence and comes up with Dramatic conclusions. Like I said before he is quite cunning.

The point here again is not about whether Hinduism is a religion. The point is how Mr. Dayal misrepresents facts. This is exactly what missionaries do to lure poor people. Lies and money.

Mr. Dayal and his merry band are dragging the christian community in the same direction as the muslim community, into conflict with the larger Hindu community. God bless him.

rgds

AS#9,

Guruvayur temple in kerala is property of maharaja of travenkor. maharaja's team made the laws whom to alow to enter and whom to not. Jagannath temple was built and operated by maharaja of Puri and they formed the laws whom to allow in and whom to not.

Other places of rural India you call follwoing `old system'.

In all the above three cases it is medival system not `old system' that is no force. In medival times landlords appointed by foreign invaders exploited the society, established untouchability and formed theri own laws.

Hinud being slaves till date have no say in affairs of the functioning of administration fro last 1000 years.

Moreover almost 30,000 Hindu temple has been looted plundered and converted into mosques in last 1000 years in India. Hindus have lived in such a terror of Muslims or christians in last 1000 years that they naturally see danger in every follower of foreign religion as another associate of foriegn invader.

Therefore what you call Hinduism is nothing but aberated version used by landlords in last 1000 years. people though that after independence Hindus also will breathe a sigh of freedom and their captured tempes and dignity will be respored but in the name of secularism they are being percecuted more then Aurangjeb did.

Hindus are being converted useing foreign dollors day and night and the moment they express their unhappiness with the nonsense of missioneries, they are branded as fanatic and fundamentalists. Their all big temples has been captured by Government in teh name of management boards. Tirupati, Sidhi Vinayak, vaishno devi, Guru vayuur and many other big Hindu tempels are being exploited by `secular government of India. Even Muslims and Christians and athiests are sitting in management board of Hindu temples to loot the donations made by Hindus. YS Rajshekahra Reddy's couseins in Tirupati, Communists in kerala, Antule in Maharshtra, Muslims in vaishno Devi are some of teh examples.

can you show me evena single non christian in the management board of any church around the globe?

can you show evena single non muslim in the management board of any Mosque around teh globe?

Truth is that in spite what john dayal and other members of foreign invading gangs of Mao marx macauley and Mohamemd shout, Hindus are most liberal and humanistic people. They never interfere in any religions affairs. yes they react when christians try to convert their people. they react when Muslims blast the bombs in trains and kill innocent man women and children. they react to get back their looted temples.

And there is nothing wrong in it. What is wrong is attempts of chrsitians to interefer in native cultures around the globe.

I am surprised to see when chrsitian leaders of Indian origin say that missioneries do not covert. If missioneries do not convert from where 2 crores christians came in India? Are they all foreigners if not converted from among Hindus.

please have pity on Hindus. please do not `demonise' the victims for your own greed. please do not associate with thsoe who want to eliminate your own civilisational values. Roform the society wherever you find weaknesses. Indian religions are flexiblie enough to take corrective action. But dun kill your own civilisation.

Speaking the truth is basic in all religions. If chrstisna do not convert others from where John dayal and Cedric Prakash has come?

Money muscle and marriage are still being used by muslims and chrsitins to increase their numbers. India and china are the immediate targets. People like John dayal are acting as agents of foreign agencies for theor own vested interests and helping attackers of India civilisation.

If somebody helping foriegn invaders, what you call them my freinds? No matter they are wearing garbs of human rights civili rights or ..


Truth is that all such people are associates of foreign invaders. They are like Jaichand and Meerjafars who helped foreign invaders Gauri and Britsih against Prithviraaj and nawab Sirajuddola.

Man Singh # 15. Thank you for explaining the
history of Guruvaryoor Temple. What is your
plain opinion of not letting non-Hindus to Hindu
Temples? Is God a private property of one group of
believers? If a non-Hindu is interested to know
more about Hinduism and participate in a Hindu
worship, is it allowed? Even today, non-Hindus are not allowed to enter into the small Hindu
Temple close to my home in Kerala.

You are greatly irated by the humanitarian services undertaken by the Christian community;
accusing them for proselytizing. From your writing
I can understand that you are a very highly
educated person.

If you make a research of the history of Mizoram,
you can see, how the gospel of Christ has changed those people in 200 years. Jesus Christ,
before his rapture commissioned His disciples
"go to all the world and preach the gospel", that
commission is being undertaken by Christians around the world. In China when the communists
came to power (1949), there were only 4 million
Christians, but now it is 111 million and it is
going to be doubled by 2050. Even in India,
people of all groups, both educated and illiterate, rich and poor are coming to the Christian faith. Even though Christians are
under severe persecution in certain parts of India, through persecution many are coming to
Christian faith. It is not changing a religion,
but making a personal relationship with a person
called Jesus Christ.

Mr A S Mathew,
Sir, can we have a honest answer to Mr Man Singh's quesiton,
"I am surprised to see when chrsitian leaders of Indian origin say that missioneries do not covert. If missioneries do not convert from where 2 crores christians came in India? Are they all foreigners if not converted from among Hindus."

Do Christians do humanitarian work, or do they proselytise or do they do both at the same time?

Man Singh:

I don't understand why conversion or missionary preachings are such a big deal. We are not talking about forced conversions or converting children here. We are talking about adults who may choose to convert. So? Its a choice. Its not like "Oh our team is going over to the other side". Religion should be a personal choice. As long as it is made without any duress or force, it is a persuasion by beliefs.

You said: "Hindus are most liberal and humanistic people. They never interfere in any religions affairs. yes they react when christians try to convert their people. they react when Muslims blast the bombs in trains and kill innocent man women and children. they react to get back their looted temples"

That is such a load of B.S. Really. This sort of nonsense justifies violence among reactionaries. Anything is provocation. What does "when Christians try to convert their people" even mean? It sounds so bizarre!! Is this a football team you are talking about? Human beings have the right to have their own set of beliefs. I would rather have people follow their own choice of religious persuasion than keep them in my own sect.

Also, Islam has been associated with a lot of terrorism and violence but that doesn't mean there aren't any Hindu extremists. In fact Hinduism is divided within itself as well. Caste discrimination (no matter where its roots lie and who is responsible for it) still exists.

And looted temples?? I'd say, get over it. It is quite likely that Hindus could've found ways of protecting their temples way back when but they were fighting among themselves and the temple pujaris were busy with the devdasis. Just because we are Hindu doesn't mean we stop introspecting and criticizing our own religious system. If one refuses to acknowledge the few flaws then there will be no growth, no change for the better.

This "I am a Hindu and therefore Hinduism has to be the best religion" is an immature idealogy. Tolerance is about accepting and making peace with the fact that other people will have their own set of beliefs.

I lived through the Bombay riots and saw Hindus and Muslims all go at it. They were all just following a herd like cattle.

Read the following Wikipedia excerpt about the Gujarat riots:

"Kausar Bano was nine months into pregnancy when on February 28, 2002, 500 strong armed mob stormed into their house at Naroda Patia. Her womb was allegedly cut open with swords and the fetus was burnt along with herself and 7 other members of her family of 12"

You call this retaliation by Hindus?!!! Such pure and heinous evil does not sprout from loss or frustration. It is just plain evil. Such evil has no beliefs, no god, no faith and no name. It is a product of the sociopathic tendencies of a few who lack compassion and find ways to unleash their anger. Please don't justify such acts as "retaliation".

Peple who lost their loved ones in the train blasts in Bombay felt grief and loss but those families did not go around murdering Muslims for vengeance or cutting open the wombs of pregnant Muslim women. The vicious cycle just continues if this goes on. Where does it stop??

Humanity is a much bigger religion and some of us seem to have dismissed this universal one in favor of a divided society.

We would've been so much happier and content if we saw and perceived people as people and not by their labels.

Aditi, I dont think the issue is "humanity" and no one religion has a monopoly on humanitarian conduct or belief. We could just as well trot out barbaric conduct by Christians, Muslims and Jews, even Buddhists and Sikhs to "even the score."

There is however a basic gap in understanding of Semitic religions vs the Indic ones (Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism and their various streams) amongst most Indians.

The Semitic religions are founded on a concept of exclusivity of a particular "chosen" people. Now these "chosen" people could be deemed so by dint of birth, faith or the practice thereof. These vary between the three religions.

Before various posters jump down my throat - ALL societies practice SOME form of exclusion (and Indic faiths are not an exception) so bear with me and read the rest of the post.

Unlike the Indic traditions, the Semitic faiths insist on divine blessing, grace and "salvation" (place in heaven, right side on Judgement Day, etc) as the SOLE preserve of their particular followers. So no, you dont get another chance at a different life to make your way up the ladder to nirvana/moksha. You can't choose a different path knowing that eventually you shall end up in the same place - ie moksha/nirvana. If you aren't part of the "chosen" people for this lifetime (no matter how short), you get to burn in hell for eternity.

(Btw - on a personal note, I was horrified that Ratzinger has gotten rid of limbo so that unbaptized babies go straight into hellfire REGARDLESS of their innocence. Not precisely a religion of love!)

Returning to my point, it is an extreme form of philosophical and theological exclusion that underpins cultures informed by Semitic traditions and impacts the way the adherents (and those born within the cultures) view the world. This can be as overt as missionary activity to convert others to the "true" faith or as subtle as a disdain/contempt for and a sense of superiority towards the "nonbeliever" (amongst many Christians it manifests itself as "sympathy" and "pity").

What this does ensure is that there is no real acceptance of differences in faith. This is a basic point that most people of Indic traditions don't understand because none of the four Indic forms mentioned earlier insist on a particular way as the "true" one and excepts ALL forms of belief as equally valid.

The Bhagwad Gita states it as "the truth is one but the paths are many. Unfortunately the Semitic traditions do not except that logic because ONLY their particular path is the TRUE one.

And that, from my terribly Hindu perspective, makes these Semitic traditions opposed and inimical to my basic humanity.

anamika... you have it wrong (although I share your hatred of Ratzinger).... limbo is gone but the babies are presumed innocent and are no longer banished to limbo... they do not go to hell as you have said, but go to heaven, and are presumed without sin.

also, it's nice you think that semetic religions are intrinsically flawed and indic ones are not, but you have left the most important factor out of the equation... and that is humans... and that is what makes ALL the religions horribly exclusionary and full of crap when it comes to their treatment of perceived outsiders. in theory hinduism might be the way you describe, but in practise it also has some serious human-induced behavioral glitches.

#19 Anamika: "We could just as well trot out barbaric conduct by Christians, Muslims and Jews, even Buddhists and Sikhs to "even the score"

Yes...AND Hindus. My point precisely! Man Singh seemed to think that Hindus were not guilty of such conducts, hence I gave him an example of that. Did you read my comment?

I didn't speak of any religion as a representation of humanitarian conduct but of humanity itself as a religion. Not only have you misunderstood/ misconstrued my point, you seem to have taken off on a tangent :)

To me it doesn't matter what somebody else's religion preaches to them. My own sensibilities will never let me give in to violence NOT because I am a Hindu but because I think I am a good human being.

What I was saying is that people need to stop justifying, rationalizing good behavior and blaming bad/ evil conduct based on religion. People are people. They are good or bad. They will act based on their basic tendencies.

Religous preachings are misinterpreted by people who need some sort of a justification for their evil actions. Its a conformist psychology.

Mr. Kannan # 17. Can you tell me, how many
communits were in India, when India got independence? A communist, according to the
communist manifesto can't be a believer in God, that ideology is totally atheistic. Can you tell me the total population of the communists and other offspring revolutionary parties all across India today? Do you get any indigestion about those people who are not believing in any deity at all?

Here, you are getting panic attacks about the
"Christian coversions". I can introduce to so many followers of Christ, who were former street
thugs and social malices. If their way of life is changed for good as decent and honest people,
the society can be better. Christian missionaries went to Africa and the cannibals
were transfored as loving human beings. What is your rejoinder about that? Please don't bring the topic of British East India company to this
topic, they were exploiting the third world countries. They have had nothing to with the
real Christian Missionary work. When William
Carey (founder of Serampore University in Calcutta) asked for a free passage to India through an East India ship, they refused the request, but the Dutch East India Company was
gracious to give him a free trip to Calcutta.
I am simply speaking on behalf of those dedicated
Christian Missionaries who went to differnt parts of the world to tell the Love of Christ.

Aditi

Being on the same side of Man Singh in a debate is not something I believe is good but I find fault in the following statement

"I don't understand why conversion or missionary preachings are such a big deal. We are not talking about forced conversions or converting children here. We are talking about adults who may choose to convert. So? Its a choice. Its not like "Oh our team is going over to the other side". Religion should be a personal choice. As long as it is made without any duress or force, it is a persuasion by beliefs"

Chandra: A majority of Adults in India choosing christianity do it either due to hocus pocus or because they are offered money. No wonder the demographic group most likely to 'choose' christianity are the uneducated and poor.
Therefore it is a big deal.

rgds

smallsquirrel said:
"that is humans... and that is what makes ALL the religions horribly exclusionary and full of crap when it comes to their treatment of perceived outsiders."

Amen to that:)!

Chandra:

"A majority of Adults in India choosing christianity do it either due to hocus pocus or because they are offered money. No wonder the demographic group most likely to 'choose' christianity are the uneducated and poor.
Therefore it is a big deal. "

If they knowingly chose money over being Hindu. Their financial constraints were obviously greater than their need to go to the temple. If all the vociferous Hindu fundamentalists would try offering them money to stay Hindu and not convert then they would stay Hindu.

Don't blame the missionaries and the people who convert, blame yourself for caring so much about a trade between beliefs and money when religion should be about your own faith, not somebody else's.

See, to me some poor villager converting to Christianity for money does not harm my own faith. I don't feel threatened by the diminishing Hindu population and hence don't understand why it bothers other Hindus. And frankly if it truly bothers them so much then they should gather a fund and pay the poor ones to stay Hindu. Or atleast offer them some provisions such as the Leprosy center started by Mother Teresa, the orphanages started by missionary nuns, the women's shelters started by convents etc. But our Hindu brothers never do anything like that. They only feel their blood boil when they hear of conversion. But a Hindu farmer starving to death doesn't evoke any religious brotherhood eh?

What about when staying Hindu causes men to be kicked out of jobs in the rural areas where the cobbler clan cannot work as tailors and a farmer cannot work as merchants even if their children are hungry and there is a severe draught? Are the Hindu fundamentalists rushing to their aid? Maybe they should.

This I think would be a lot more effective than the strategy of burning a Christian missionary alive while he sleeps defenseless in a car with his two young children (ref: Graham Staines case).

Chandra: I hope you don't misunderstand the tone of my comment above. I don't support conversions under duress or force at all. It frustrates me too when I hear of people forced by poverty to give up their religious beliefs. It is unfair. But I wonder about what choice they have left. If Hindu fundamentalists would reserve their energies in less effigy burning and more social reform then we would've had some provisions for the poor and the tribal folks who forsake their faith for food. It is sad.

Things in the rural areas are a lot more different than in cities. The caste system is rampant and ruthless. The lower caste people who are stuck in dearth find belonging, support and financial aid from the missionaries and a hope for educating their children. I have interviewed quite a few rural converts from varied generations to try and understand this and when I hear their stories I wonder what a father would do when he is faced with two options: one sticking to his faith and two taking the one chance that will get his children out of the cycle of poverty.

I hope my above comment wasn't harsh enough for this point to have been lost.

Regards.

Aditi

The logic you use can be used against the people who offer the money. If indeed somebody is so desperate about the money, why dont you give him or her the money irrespective of the religion?
You are more worried about its impact on Hindu society, i am more worried about the ethics of the way one goes about doing this.

Secondly, if indeed such allurement is leading to a better quality of life, I may still shut my eyes. That is not happening either. Instead, most of these missionary jokers then come back for reservation for these very guys because after the initial pay off nothing happens. In my home district the church has grabbed large swathes of tribal property to build churches and graveyards and this plunder has happened for the last 40 years. Yet, the tribals in my district are the worst on all development metrics- christianity or no christianity...

rgds

Aditi

Some poor folk do have little choice and accept whatever is given to them. Therefore bribing them to achieve something is corruption. I dont blame them, nobody does. The bigger problem is that there are many nut cases who set targets on conversion for the month and year with a budget set aside. How crazy can that be?

Obviously a reason for conversions is how we hindus treat lower castes. But that is only about 25-30%, the rest 70% are outright bribery and fraud (my estimates). The simplest way to validates this data is to track conversions data with caste violence. You will not see a direct correlation. For example: Bihar, UP and Raj have one of the highest caste violence incidences and yet one of the lowest conversion activities.....exactly opposite in the south

rgds

Mathew #16Man Singh # 15.
Hindu Scriptures do not put restriction on entry in to the temple based on way of worship. Even within Hinduism there are infinite ways of worship allowed and 2-3 more can easyly be accommodated. Whatever you see in few isolated places they are laws made by landlords and some greedy priests during medival period. These landlords were appointed by Muslim invaders and hence it is wrong to call the traditions follwed by traitors as `Hinduism'. That's where you are wrong Mr mathew. same argument is valid on Widow Burning.


In some cases wherever non Hindus has been hostile to Hindus , for safety reasons some people might have put trstriction on entry of associates of foreign invaders to enter temples.
It is purelu realted to criminal attacking mentality of foeign religions that might have forced kerala hindus to take such a decision. Otehrwise as per Hindus scriptures such things are nowjere recommended.

"You are greatly irated by the humanitarian services undertaken by the Christian community"
Mr mathew a Christian can never do a humanitarian service. A service rendered with an aim of buying the faith of a person is nothing but bussiness and not `service.

Trulu speaking christians have spoiled the name of `charity'. You tell me even a single incidence on the globe where Christian missions are doing selfless service in present or past.

I chalenge you to give a single example of that.

"accusing them for proselytizing."
Is it an accusation Mr mathew? Chrsitian charity is always aimed at conversion only. I can quote from a number of christian magazines (where missioneries show their true colors) saying that we have to do charity to make more chrsitians.

Ref Americam missionery Billu Grahm's magazine `Decision' page 14 what St Xevior's Chairman Augustine Pinto who is running around 70 schools )ryan international) around India why exactly christians pretend to be doing charity.

"If you make a research of the history of Mizoram,you can see, how the gospel of Christ has changed those people in 200 years."

The native culture ands civilisation of these Mizos has been destroyed completely. Thier language has been eliminated fully? This is exactly what christinaity does to humanity. Strip off their natural God given beliefs, traditions, cultures religions and language. The veru essense of MIZO culture is finished. isn'nt it?


"In China when the communists
came to power (1949), there were only 4 million
Christians, but now it is 111 million and it is
going to be doubled by 2050. Even in India,
people of all groups, both educated and illiterate, rich and poor are coming to the Christian faith."

Clearly you are accepting exactly what I say. Chrsitians are using money in China to convert people. In India, few educated people convert simply for greed / money. It is same as some landlords used to associate with muslim invaders or Britsih only to become rich while defenders of India were fighting with the enemy.

Clearly each and every act of christian misisons is aimed at destruction of native culture religion and civilisational values through conversion.

An africal tribal leader summed the missionery work:

"when they came we were having land and they were having Bible. Today after 200 years we have Bible and they have land"

Clearly missioneroes are like Invaders to the nation even worst then Arab invaders or Britsih east India company as those invaders were visible and open these missionery invaders are wearing the robes of charity and difficult to recognise.

the whole world knows today the motives of chrsitian charities.

If you want to see selfless service look at jain community in India. They render services and never ask anybody to convert. In my Hometown Poor muslims are biggest beneficiaries of jain run charities and till date they never asked anybody to become a jain to enjoy the fruit of their charity? can u understand the difference of faith trading and selfless serviuce and humanitarian work?

28 Chandra: My own observations and interviews were conducted in rural Maharashtra and Konkan. You are right caste violence does not coincide with conversion rates. That is because missionaries do not venture into these regions. But guess what?!! It does not coincide with poverty rates either (those are much higher in Bihar/UP). So the theory of "people do it solely because they are offered monetary bribes" also falls apart. There is some level of conscious choice involved on part of those who convert.

The study would need a proper control for comparison. A more accurate analysis would be to evaluate a range of reasons for conversion in a certain demographic. Out of the several families that I interviewed not one said that they were converted in exchange for the food/ provisions. They said they were given bibles and religious advice but there was no exchange of one for the other. No priest ever said to them "You convert and then we will give you food". I remember one guy in particular told me that he was just tired of being treated like crap by society. He was sick that his kids couldn't go to the schools that Brahmin children did. He was subjected to a lot of humiliation before he decided to convert. The church gave him and his family a feeling of belonging he told me rather than the discriminatory exclusion they faced due to caste discrimination.

You know, honestly, I personally used to feel very strongly about religious conversions since my grandfather worked for the Goa Liberation movement. But I wonder now if the Hindu fundamentalists are just reactionaries who don't want to work towards the upliftment of their religious communities and would just rather see people starving than making the kinds of provisions for them that convents and missionaries do.

See, I think these differences arise because of the principle involved. You and I as Hindus do not believe in conversion but somebody else's religion teaches them and inculcates in them the neccessity to propagate their religion. As long as they are not beating people up, bullying them or threatening them and are actually helping them out, to me it is not duress. They are just practicising what their religion preaches in a non-violent manner. They are also pulling people out of the poverty cycle. To me it is not bribing. It is simply marketing :)

Aditi # 18

"We are not talking about forced conversions or converting children here. We are talking about adults who may choose to convert. So? Its a choice. Its not like "Oh our team is going over to the other side"."

The below countries are traditionally non-Christian but are now majority Christian through aggressive missionary activity. Most, if not all of the countries below, have effectively been converted by the exploitation of their impoverished conditions by missionaries.

Angola - 90% Christian
Burundi - 78% Christian
Cameroon - 35% Christian
Central African Republic - 82% Christian
Chad - 33% Christian
Congo - 62% Christian
East Timor - 92% Christian
Ethiopia - 52% Christian
Equatorial Guinea - 94% Christian
Gabon - 79% Christian
Kenya - 25% Christian
Liberia - 68% Christian
Mozambique - 31% Christian
Nigeria - 52% Christian
Papa New Guinea - 97% Christian
Philippines - 84% Christian
Rwanda - 69% Christian
South Africa - 78% Christian
South Korea - 49% Christian
Sudan - 30% Christian
Tanzania - 20% Christian
Togo - 23% Christian
Uganda - 70% Christian
Zaire - 90% Christian

please look at teh consequences. Does it mean that a poor community has no right to profess its religion and we should allow these vultures to exploit them?


"Religion should be a personal choice. As long as it is made without any duress or force, it is a persuasion by beliefs."

I am with you completely on this issue provided this sermon is limited to Hindus alone?


"This sort of nonsense justifies violence among reactionaries. Anything is provocation. What does "when Christians try to convert their people" even mean? It sounds so bizarre!! "

Aditi it means when a school offers jobs if you convert. It is when school withdraws scholarship if you do not convert. It is when students in University of Roorkee are lured entry to Australia on clergy VISA if converted.

You will not belive it.

I am village boy. I have seen dacoits attacking my village now and then. Police as usual comes after damage has been done. one fine day desperate village youth took dandas and beat back teh dacoits and their associates.
Police came as susal and arrested these village youth and put them in prison. I was one of them. My carrer got affected by dacoits police and crooked associates of dacoits within my village.

Do you feel I was wrong to associate with village youth and beat back the dacoits. Yes It was job of police but..

exactly the same way whenever missioneries attack my religion n culture n try to convert me my family of my freinds, administration becomes a mute spectator. What choive do I have?

Am I justifying the violence or those who attacked my village and looted it are wrong and violent and should be punished.

You think and let me know whose side do u stand? Do u stand on side of village youth who beat back the dacoits or dacoits who attacked the village?

Aditi, yes we have the flaws. I never deny that. But does my weakness justify the crime of others on me? If I beat a weak person, is it that weak person to be blamed fro his weakness or the I am wrong to beat him?

Yes medival period when landlords appointed by muslim invaders opressed society created untouchabilty and devdasi etc. Yes Hindus are divided lot and its their weakness. But does the eprson exploiting our weakness has become free from his crime? If I never put lock on my house, the crime thief has become justifiable?
Let's take one issue at a time. here issue was crooked way of christians to convert non christians. Weaknesses of Hindus are also equally real but not being discussed here.

Crime against humanity no matter done by whom is crime and guilty should be punished of course.
I never justified such nonsense which you have put in ur post.

I always justify the attacks by netaji Bose on British or Bhagat Singh on Angrej.

I always supprot to beat back the dacoits attacking my village.

I always support to beat back a christian missionery engaged in converting people under garb of charity.

I don'nt which side do u stand? Do you stand by side of tyrants of side of those who are struggling to eliminiate tyrants. Of course from outside both look to be violent and both hare having arms in their hands. But one is fighting to atack others while others are fighting to defend themselves.

If you feel attackers and defenders are equally bad then why don'nt you come iup with a method how to protect my villagers from attack of dacoits when police becoems inactive?

I will be more then happy to follw you if some reasonable way to blunt the agressive mentality of evangelists and jehadis is propsed by you here.

I have see how gandhi's non violence casued death of 1 Million humans(both Hindus and Muslims) and destruction of Billions.

I am pretty sure if Hindus might have been strong enough to give a befitting reply to Jinna's threats of violence, we could have save those million lives. But Gandhi's non violence purged the whole heat of nationalists Indians to beat back the enemies of India.

Weak people will be beaten everywhere. Strongness of villagers only ensures `no attack'by dacoits.

I met in Jalandhar, one person and his whole family who are believers in Chrit. He spent Rs.
25 lakh for medical treatment, but by prayer to
Jesus, he got healed. Another person in Delhi who was a loan shark was critically ill with an
unknown disease. He challenged a Christian Pastor " if your God Jesus can heal me, I will be
His follower" The Pastor prayed and the man began to get healing and now fully recovered.
Both of them were from non-Christian background.
Who can blame their own decision to follow Christ?

In the monsoon time, a lot of people die in one
area of West Bengal and I sponsor some medical
camps with strict instruction that everybody
coming for help must be treated, no question of
religion should ever ask. After the camp, these
poor people want to know, why free medical care is given. Then, we have an obligation to tell them plainly that it is through the love of Jesus, we are motivated to do it. If some of them accept Christian faith, is it forced conversion? Aditi Nadkarni # 30 said a clearcut
answer to those who are lamenting about conversion. While human beings are dying by thousands, illiteracy is rampant in India among the poorest people, all religions are competing
each other to construct brick and iron monuments
( places of worships)as if God is happy to stay in these buildings. The best service to God is to do something to the poorest of the poor and we can find millions of them in India.

aditi

conversions are the highest in the poorest regions of the southern states

secondly, no missionary activity is pulling out anybody from poverty- csg, jha are examples. no wonder the clamor for reservations

Small Squirrel, thank you for clarifying the new location about innocent babies. Unfortunately good pagans are banished to hell and I do take offence at throwing Virgil, Homer et al into hell. But that may be Ratzinger's personal literary bias. I also wonder whether this applies retroactively - which of course would produce all sorts of wonderful theological problems.

As for your second point "it's nice you think that semetic religions are intrinsically flawed and indic ones are not," -- Why must every point be turned into a comparative? Or indeed turned into a value judgement?

I made a point that the Semitic traditions are exclusionary as the basis of perceiving the world and make NO space for other faiths (including each other) as valid. You can debate me on theological grounds but I dont think you can point to a single major Jewish/Christian/ Islamic theologian who would disagree with that basic point.

The Indic traditions do not base themselves on establishing themselves as the SOLE TRUE FAITH! It does not mean they do not practice social exclusion or differentiate insider/outsider identities.

This means that exclusion of other faiths is a social practice that changes over time and space rather than a textually sanctioned theological position. And even in its most fundamentalist form, the practice of such exclusion would not allow the Indic traditions to theologically or philosophically declare any other faith as invalid or untrue as it would be an untenable position.

How does pointing out this difference between the two tranlate to claiming that the Indic traditions are flawless escapes my understanding. But I am sure you have the answer...

All religion converts and indeed it is the fundamental rights to choose the religion one may like.

Hindutva forces have such a powerful campaign with safron medias in Guruji's centinary celebration that all Christians involved fraud, fradulent conversion. And they have achieved it but far from reality.

They have created powerful images for Christian as people converts, Muslim as Terrotist, Secular as Global which are considered great enemies of India in the eyes of Saffron forces.

The allegation of conversion to Christian community really true?

There are hundred of pastors and church workers in all over the county have booked under allegation of conversion.

Has any body heard of section court, hight court or supreme court ever given its judgement on any of hundred of pastors and church workers arrested under the fraud and fraudulent conversion? I have not.

Why there is not even single cases found true of the allegation in any of these court? Can it be not that the allegations meted on them are not found true?

Inspite of knowing these reality, if your mindset is blocked with Christian force conversion, then nothing will be left that you are none other than twice born Hindutva forces who attacks Indian secularism!

#31 Man Singh: I really don't understand you. Honestly. I just dunno where you are coming from. I mean, I'm a Hindu, but I don't get all upset upon reading the details of Christian conversion that you have so painstakingly outlined. Hinduism doesn't subscribe to conversion. Does it just frustrate you that while other religions can convert you can't go about converting Christians and Muslims to Hinduism?

Why are you are lamenting the fact that other religions involve conversion. Hinduism is a belief system where conversion is not necessary. So why look at conversion rates of other religions and be outraged at the growing rates?? Should Christianity, Islam all be considerate and limit their own propagation because Hinduism does not allow conversion? Is that what you want? I don't understand! Those religions encourage propogation, Hinduism encourages focusing on your own faith rather than converting/ persuading others. So it is a losing battle....and quite pointless really!

You asked me if a scholarship is being offered on the condition that I convert would I take it. No, I wouldn't but guess what...someone else might. It is a matter of choice. It is a matter of what you put your faith above. For some people their status, credentials etc may be important than the religion they follow. Who are we to judge what is right/ wrong? We are just humans.

Why can't you exercise some tolerance that is the gist of the religion you are trying so hard to speak in favor of? If somebody else for whatever reason financial, educational, whatever, is choosing to convert, as an adult human being they have the right to do so!

Does other people's and nation's growing conversion rate stop you from being Hindu in any way?! How does it stop you or your family from practising your own faith?

#33 Chandra: May be true (I have not seen any references) but as I said above if these people are choosing financial stability over their faith then its their choice. Why is their conversion bothering those who are Hindu? How does someone else's conversion harm other people's faith?

Maybe I just don't get it. For me, it is important what I do and whether I can retain my own right to my own faith. If somebody else converts I don't get all flustered and bothered. As long as nobody is being harmed, threatened or bullied into converting, it doesn't bother me at all. Thats probably why I don't understand what the big deal is.

Aditi

You dont seem to get the gist of the argument, because you consider the conversion debate as a choice and freedom issue. It is not. I believe it is an issue of exploitation and fundamentalism. Exploitation, because you are offering cash to people who choose a certain religion. Exploitation because the benefits are in the short term and the Individual is back to square one after a short period. Exploitation because then you run back to the Govt to support the same people you first bribed to change the religion. Exploitation because you take advantage of their lack of education and understanding of many things of today.
It is fundamentalism because contrary to what kids in secular education processes are taught, you repeat everyday that their religion is superior and that all others are uncivikised and stupid.

When you have a situation of exploitation and fundamentalism, the decent thing to do is protest.

Thirdly, tribals across the country have been converting their religion. Have they benefitted? Are they happier? The answer is NO.

Even the worst of missionaries will not ever agree with your description of converting a person by offering money as being 'Good Marketing'. It is the same thing as saying that that a poor lower caste cleaner cannot use the village well because of 'Hygiene'.

If somebody really beliefs that his religion satisfies all the needs, no problem. Please communicate that to the individual and let him make a choice. Plaese donot offer him money, hocus pocus and dreams about how dramatically this will change his life. None of which really happens.

rgds

Rev Madhu Chandra

There are 1000s of day to day caste problems, have you seen 1000s of people getting booked?

Almost all Govt and Politicians are corrupt, have you seen atleast 1% of them getting booked every year?

TTEs in trains inevitably take bribes to offer booking. How many of them are charged every year

Almost the entire police force is corrupt, how many of them get charged every year?

Sorry, just because nobody is arrested, it does not mean it does not happen.

Also, attacking others as being twice born Hindutva is probably the only way you can win an argument.


rgds

#37 Chandra: I am trying to see your perspective here. But here's my problem: even if I agree with you about all the ill-effects of religous conversion, the fact remains that some religions do believe in propagation and will drive conversions. The fact also remains that we cannot decide what somebody else should do when faced with the choice between short-term financial succor and religous conversion. If an adult is making that choice then they obviously value their financial situation over their faith. So how does this become a social issue? It is ultimately about their freedom of choice.

More importantly however, tell me honestly Chandra, do you think that by protesting against conversion this problem will be solved?

People who are frustrated with their economic conditions will find the means that are sometimes inappropriate: some will use crime, some will persist, some will perish and some as you say may convert in the hopes that this will solve their problems.

However the root cause is the lack of choices. Once these poor people have a choice between provisions made by a Hindu group versus the monetary bribes offered by missionaries at least they will have a fair choice. But how many of these protesting Hindus are willing to provide charitable respite to the lower economic classes that fall prey to conversions? Most Hindus are happier paying for a golden crown for Krishna and Ganpati idols in their temples than they are about giving food and clothes to the poor. They would rather renovate the village temple and build one more marble bhagvan ghar than donate to charity. So who does one blame? The religions that offer conversions because their scriptures dictate propagation, the poor man who chooses food over faith or the religous group that vehemently opposes and protests against conversions but does nothing to prevent such a situation from arising.

Protesting in this situation won't do anything I feel. Prevention is a lot better than cure. Instead of protesting conversions, we need to try and create a situation where the poor will have enough choices that will allow them to adhere to their faith without compromising on their status in society.

While this is easier said than done, protesting I think would be a cop-out.

Aditi

Nobody here is arguing against conversions. I have seen people change religion and respect that. People here are arguing against exploitation and bribery. It is not an issue of choice at all. It is not an informed adult, but somebody who has little education and no money. The bigger issue here is conflict. That is what I am most worried about. No wonder you see so much conflict across villages in India. The christian groups go to a village and pay money, the hindu groups then turn up and reconvert these guys. It is an absolute tamasha. Sometimes people are threatened and killed.

Frankly, i dont think the Govt should get involved in religion at all. Personally, I believe we should throw out religion completely from our education system. Let people learn about religion at their homes and religious places, not at schools. Also, I think it is time we stop allowing religious bodies from offering education. The job of religious bodies is in the area of faith and related hocus pocus, why should they be offering that in the guise of rational education?

The larger issue of poverty and education is being dealt with as well. It is not that since we debate conversions, poverty and education are out in the cold.

rgds

A S Matthew,

I met in Jalandhar, one person and his whole family who are believers in Chrit. He spent Rs.
25 lakh for medical treatment, but by prayer to
Jesus, he got healed. Another person in Delhi who was a loan shark was critically ill with an
unknown disease. He challenged a Christian Pastor " if your God Jesus can heal me, I will be
His follower" The Pastor prayed and the man began to get healing and now fully recovered.

Dude forgive me but are you serious? I mean do you yourself believe in whatever you say about Christ and miracles?

Do I throw the science textbook in the dust bin?

atlantean... sounds like someone has been watching too much Benny Hinn!

Aditi

A S Matthew: I met in Jalandhar, one person and his whole family who are believers in Chrit. He spent Rs.
25 lakh for medical treatment, but by prayer to
Jesus, he got healed. Another person in Delhi who was a loan shark was critically ill with an
unknown disease. He challenged a Christian Pastor " if your God Jesus can heal me, I will be
His follower" The Pastor prayed and the man began to get healing and now fully recovered

Chandra: This is what I mean by hocus pocus.

Here the topic is shifting from Christian conversion to " healing". I have been healed through prayer many times. I will never tell a
story to establish a debate. What I have said was
100% true, whether you believe it or not is your
personal choice.

When I was 21 days old, I was almost dead but came back to life. (my elder brother was 21 days when he died by some childhood disease)
When I was 10 years, I was chronically ill with
yellow jaundice, my father thought of calling a
carpenter make a coffin for me. Even last year,
I was faced with an unknown facial allergy and
went to three specialists, medicine couldn't do anything, but by through a divine touch, I was
fully recovered. My right was getting weak every
day, now I can lift 50 lbs without any problem.
If you doubt, I will find the telephone numbers of those people to contact them straight.
Smallsquirrel, I watch and do believe in miracles.
Did you see the hundreds of people came to the
platform to tell about the healing, both in Bombay and Bangalore. One person who got healing
for his eye was graduated from Harward Univerity
in law and he was going to practice in England.
His grandfather said that they are Hindus. Jesus
loves and heal the broken heart and and physical
body of those who believe in Him. But Jesus is not going to force his grace on anybody, if anybody likes to come to Him, He will do for anyone, no question of relgion is asked. " Come
unto to me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" Jesus said.

A.S.... I cannot judge your faith. I can only say that I do not believe in faith healers myself, especially the kinds like Benny Hinn. I believe that God is a much more quiet and unpretentious God that doesn't perform miracles in auditoriums on demand. But that should not preclude you from your beliefs.

To settle the bone of contention about conversion and healing, may I request to visit this
website. www.southasianchristians.com. There,
you can hear the personal stories of people who came to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour, and most of them are from non-Christian
religions. Everybody can ask them, why did they change their religious faith. God bless you all.

AS Mathew

Why dont you write comic books like Superman and Spiderman? :-)

rgds

chandra... BE NICE! :)

#40 Chandra: Point well-made! I understand what you are saying now. It is kind of similar to the issue I have with people using poor, uneducated persons in rural areas for clinical research. (ref.: similar to what they show in The Constant Gardner). Its not the same, but kind of on the same lines. It is like intentionally targetting a certain section of the population in the name of religion to exploit their vulnerabilities. I do disgaree with such conversions.

Thank you for explaining your perspective so well.

I am also starting to see the "hocus pocus" you are referring to :)

#44 Mr.Mathew, I would never question your faith and I am sure faith itself has healing powers but if medical science is failing in the face of a facial allergy then I am seriously worried about the kind of doctors you've been going to. Maybe Lord Jesus Christ could work better if complemented by a second opinion from another doctor? I mean looking to God for a facial allergy is like going to the CEO to demand more stationery for your office desk.

I mean no offense, its just that when you unwittingly kick medical sciences while praising the Lord, I feel the heat :)

# 49, Sir I went to three Doctors, they were all
MDs got medical degress from the U.S., and had
speciality in dermatology. They gave me many
kinds of medications, one tube was $ 130.00, and had to undergo a battery of allergy tests. I was
allergic to different kinds of pollen, but they
couldn't pinpoint the exact reason. And, they were going to send me to several other Doctors, but I stopped at that point, for them to use me as a testing tool, but God did a miracle of healing.
This is my prsonal experience, you have the perfect right to judge me in any way possible.

Mr. Chandra, from time to time, you write
certain remearks quite offensive, I do remember
once, you wrote in a substandard way. I am writing for the last 37 years, and have appeared my letters in several national
newspapers. If it is the will of God to write
comic stories for Children, I will do that, then I may need your help to edit that. If the Desicritic website is turning as a personal attack forum, then the real purpose is lost.
Let us do this with mutual respect. I am not a
person to retaliate for any sarcastic remarks you
make toward me. You have the freedom to do whatever you want to do in life, but please
remember that " you will reap from where you sow"

Mr. Mathews

Please accept my apologies. I just found your story too fanciful to resist a dig.

rgds

Mr. Chandra, your apologies are accepted. If I am person keep grudge in life, I don't have any
right to tell about Jesus Christ. On the other
hand, if I nurture grudge, I am the person going
to suffer. My friend, God bless you and He loves you, so do I.

To Aditi, Sorry for butting in.. but just read something you wrote

"Maybe I just don't get it. For me, it is important what I do and whether I can retain my own right to my own faith. If somebody else converts I don't get all flustered and bothered. As long as nobody is being harmed, threatened or bullied into converting, it doesn't bother me at all. Thats probably why I don't understand what the big deal is. "

Maybe you can understand when i say that Jinnah was a second generation Muslim, his grandfather was a Brahmin. Iqbal was a a thrid generation Muslim, a Rajput before that.
Now you might very well argue that these people were wicked already and therefore the demand for a separate Muslim Homeland came about. Well, what makes you so sure that a Christian homeland will not be asked for by some equally wicked guys's grandchildren. Maybe cut off a piece of land from India and give it away. or does the partition of India not bother you? When land was taken away by India and is now being used as a hotbed for terrorists? And sorry, Hindu's have not asked for their homeland, before you even bring in the "Hindu Fundamentalists" in this. No ideas for Akhand Bharat. I just dont want India to be ripped apart again. Hope you get the point

Aditi #36

Simple thing:

"Should Christianity, Islam all be considerate and limit their own propagation because Hinduism does not allow conversion?"

My question is do you justify their acts of exploiting poverty of native cultures?

And do you have any objecyion if Hindus try to create a defence system against such agressive religions to protect their culture religion and civilisational values originated from soiul of India?

Yes I expect muslims and christians also to become civilised and stop interfereing in other religions.

Yes If they do not learn to live civilisedly and continue interefer in others affairs, I want to create defence system for non agressive cultures so that even weaker and poor people also get right to live on this earth.

It is like a Zoo. There are some animals who eat away other animals. But there are some who do not attack other animals.

Would you like to put meat eater n non meat animals in single room or you would like to put some fencing to protect these non agressive animals against agressive killer animals?

Perhaps your focus if different then mine. I won;nt mind if a poor person trades his faith for scholarship or money. I can understand the frustration of this poor person.

My focus is that if you feel it a good act on the part of a `religios person' puting precondition of faith trading for help.

In your opinion , if this person who is indirectly forcing a poor person to abandon his faith as precondition for eligibility of scholarship? Is he/she a good person or bad person?

If we want to create opression free society, will you allow such crooks to function in ur vicinity or you will recommend some protective measures fro poor people?

Aditi #36

The purpose of listing the data on conversion is make people aware about endangered cultures and religions.

We are spending millions nowadays to protect endangered species like Panda pigs and tortoises.

But there are endangered languages, endangered religions , endangered cultures as well. Please have pit on these endangered religions also and Hunters should stop further hunting.

USA has banned hunting of polar bears only because they are endangered species. The same way Hunting of endangered religions should be banned today if we call ourselves civilsied world?

we are not allowing these endangered religions to establish a defence mechanism for themselves?

I am surprised by double standards of so called educated Indians. They appreciate efforts to protect and preserve endangered animals and plants. They are happy to spend resources to to do so. I am more then happy with this. They comdemn the hunters and pachers of endangered animals I am happy with it.

But the same people justify the further hunting and poaching of endangered cultures?

Please have pity on these poor illetral people whose dignity is being traded for few dollors.

It is excatly the same way as a money lender trapps a poors daughter and plays with her dignity. Christian missioneries are doing exactly teh same. It is a matter of choice for a poorman's daughter if she accepts money from rich as price of her dignity? isn'nt it Aditi?

For me it is wrong on teh part of Rich man. He is not a good human being and deserves punishment. Either government take cation of poor people get organised and teach him a lesson.

sameway it is wrong on the part of Rich and pwerful chrsitain misisoneries to misuse schooling health care orphanages etc a medium of playing with traditional faith of poor people.

I see no difference in Loan sharks and Chrsitain misisoneries. Both are offering choices to poor people. Either take loan or dun take.

Loan sharks stripps off physical dignity against money while missionery stripps off more valuable spritual dignity of a poor.

Think over it Aditi and then comment please. Think of villagers like me as well who love his religion and have capacity to defend it from outside attack.

#40 -"It is not an issue of choice at all. It is not an informed adult, but somebody who has little education and no money"

-but i guess you have no problems with them voting for people and parties that decide India's future :)

Mathew # 50

"Doctors, but I stopped at that point, for them to use me as a testing tool, but God did a miracle of healing.
This is my prsonal experience, you have the perfect right to judge me in any way possible."

why are u spreading superstions here. Even Vetican has a team of big doctors. Even Pope was treated by many doctors.

I was having a greind of mine his name is Dickens. he is a protestant priest in UP. He also preaches the same things as you are teling here. But whenever his kids get infection he always vistis doctors for antibiotics.

Christianity is moving in 21st century now. Science has replaced christianity by 80% now. Please stop moving againt the wind. Superstions are superstitions. In Many cases desease are cured even without prayers. Do u feel that's also miracle?

No these are `matter of chance'. Some time by accident people find money. But it is not a rule. Antibiotics treats infection is a law applicable globally.

can u understand the difference?

Man Singh, many Hindu people tell their neighbours, relatives and friends to utter the Maha Mrityunjay Mantra when their children or loved onse are unwell. Thye don't mean to spread superstition but only lend a mantra that will bring some strength to the suffering individual. Quite a lot of superstition is associated with Hinduism too. So no reason to come down so hard on Mr.Mathew. He is not propagating superstition but narrating his own experience. Medicine may cure but as a doctor I sometimes admit that faith does have the power to heal.

Hindus do not actively recruit converts because they believe that the goals of spiritual life can be achieved through any religion, as long as it is practiced sincerely. So why are you so keen on disregarding, dismissing and criticizing other religions.

*******
Upon reading your comments I sincerely feel that you should borrow a page from the religion you represent and practice some tolerance. Hinduism is based on the self. Your faith, your strength, your soul, your beliefs....not on debasing somebody else's faith.
********

Dr. Jay # 58, may I sincerely thank you for your
observation. Many Medical Doctors will tell it
very openly that uncurable diseases are cured by
simple prayer.

When I came to the U.S. in 1971, many Americans
I met never believed that their country was the
first country that put a man in the moon. They said, it is impossible to do likewise.

When I tell my prsonal experience of healing,
Mr. Man Singh can't accept that fact, that is his
business, but now he is accusing me that I am
spreading superstitions. I am not against Doctors, I go to Doctors but in my personal life,
divine healings has taken place on several occasions. When we approach God with a simple
childlike faith, He will do miracles. Since God is wiser and greater than us, when we try to outsmart God, no miracles will take place. Jesus
did miracles while He was physically on earth,
and even today, miracles are happening around the
world. Even Doctors will admit the fact that they are simply doing their part and healing has
to come from God.

Jay,

I wonder why are switching over to superstitions among Hindus to defend superstition of christians.

Did I ever said that Hindus do not have their fair share of superstitions? never?

But I never saw Hindus using their part of superstition to buy new converts.

I am surprised how you can jump to some conclusions so fast just by reading a person condemning a superstition of a fanatic christiam evangelist wholse livelyhood rests on `faith trading' ie take dollor give up faith.

Is truth so bitter that you strated branding me `this' or `that'.

Will you tolerate a dacoits attacking your house Mr jay?

Will you tilerate a thief taking away your car?

Will you? never. You call 100 ie police in India.

Will you call sucha victim of theft as intolerant and fanatic only becasue he call police after seeing a dacoits attacking his house or stealing his car.

exactly the same way when I see a foreign invaders stealing culture religion and civilisational values as a crooked coneman using dollors and I do a whistle blwoing, how I become a intolerant person?

Please think Jay before writing some comments on somebody.

I myself am suffere from such conmen who were promising Australian VISA as a clegymen for IIT Roorkee graduates. When challenged they started blaming me as intolerant exactly the way you have done.

I will never wait for police if somebody slap my mother. I will do justice to him right at there very spot. That's how mothers dignity is protected jay. Shameless people who surrendered to foreign invaders and converted to foreign religions for greed can never understand such feelings of valor. Those surrendered souls try to make others also fall and to justify their own crimes of such cultural traitorship, they start character assassination of those who are still struggling for their self respect and dignity.

Yes Jay, We Indians are defeated race. We have been subdued by Muslims invaders and christians invaders. Yes many among us have surrendered to the enemy and started associating with them for comforst after selling t