Sethusamudram Project - The Frauds are Revealed

Well, this is what happens when emotions are placed first and logic and reason are dumped. Good that the fraudster is ousted out.

And i completely agree, we really have to look at the damage the project is going to do to the marine ecology over there. We need to start taking care of the marine ecology around India and the environment in India, in general, before it is too late. Hope some realization dawns upon our politicians soon in this regard.

Uhhh, "Jo" -- since when is protection of a religious heritage site considered fanaticism? Are you telling me that outrage against the Taliban demolition of the Bamiyan Buddhas was fanaticism?

I'm an atheist, but I'm quite sure you're a crook. You're needlessly stereotyping any opponent of Sethusamudram as an extremist. I think you're the extremist.

Why not demolish the Vatican or the Church of the Nativity to build a freeway through it? Why not destroy the Wailing Wall or Al-Aqsa Mosque to build a shopping mall?

As an atheist and a rationalist, I find your selective singling out of Hindus for allegations of extremism to be pathetic and suspiciously crooked.

You should allow Hindus the dignity of protecting their religious sites in the same manner that you would allow it for other religions -- no more or no less.

"Saffron brigade" -- pffft, the venomous sneer of the Left. How about demolishing Ambedkar's statue to make way for a children's playground? How about bulldozing the Kaaba to build a golf course? Why not? How about knocking down the Taj Mahal to create a skating rink or a cricket field?

>> Sri Harsha:

Yes. It is high time that we become aware of the environmental issues (I think people are taking it seriously these days because of the immediate results of Global Warming and all) and do something about it.


>> Sanjay:

since when is protection of a religious heritage site considered fanaticism?

Either you haven't read my article in it's sense, or you are here just to throw some bricks while you try to claim that you are an 'atheist'.

Protection of a religious, heritage site is not fanaticism if it is actually a "religious, heritage site". If you missed to read this (or misread the article), here it is for you to notice:

it would be understandable if their claim was right and the Sethu project site would need to be protected or declared as a heritage site if the bridge was actually built by men in the Ramayana era.

Now that claim has been proved wrong by Geological Survey of India and NASA. The whole thing had an agenda to paint religion into it. Also my article was not against 'Hindus' (although that is how you want to see it), but against the extremist groups in it.

I also have mentioned that the need to address the environmental issues involved in the whole matter.

Sorry to say, but apart from your written claims like "I'm an atheist", "rationalist" etc, you do not sound like one. Instead, it seems to me that you are deeply hurt by my claims (with enough support from news resources) against the extremist groups and that shows something else.

Nice one Jo. You have fired the shots ... now time to face some fire?
Now coming to the point.
The Indian Express has gone to town saying this Puneesh guy is a fraud. Good. THe RSS fired him as soon as they got to know it.. THat is great.
They did not do a background check, well that is a loophole which they should do, which might make for such foot in the mouth situationsn in the future.
But but but... what does it say about the contention that the bridge actually is Ramarsethu? How is that a fraud? Was Puneesh the only guy who has backed the Ramarsethu?

For every piece of evidence that you have listed out, there is one which points in the other way.
Check this out. Please read the articles carefully
THe person who has written the articles is a non RSS guy.. so may be you might be inclined to read it atleast.

Jo -
You come out as bad as the religious right.

Generally what I have seen over the years.
1. Anybody saying anything about hinduism is branded religious right. He/she is fascist/communal person. You just chose to ignore Harsha's comments and simply "blammed him" (caste an instigation he is not atheist, and most probaly a hindu bigot - for you all of them are just that- bigots - all the secular tolerance was gifted for you folks?"


What proof is there for anything? Newsweek/Times publishes articles after articles on Jesus and "need for religion" - everybody worth their salt keeps quiet. Jerusalem is accepted as the holy city. On what basis - just few archealogists trying to prove saviour(s) was there. Imagine just imagine what you write is cleaned up in some kind of natural calamity and what remains is what was written by your disliker - what will the later generations who find that stuff think? Why is one set of religion is treated in great hope and salvation and rest of the native religions as mumbo jumbo and stuff that is useless? Everybody in hindu religion is mythology and rest all is truth.

People of book are right, rest all are waiting to be liberated from the dark ages. Anyway enough of rant -
let us hope both environmental and religious issues are taken care of.

I dont think an entire movement can get discredited just because of one dishonest person.

In any case, environmentalists, who are not connected to the BJP, would still campaign to stop the project. And their arguments are pretty sound. The people of Tamil Nadu also seem to be against the project for economic reasons.

The reason why the Ramayana argument is discredited by the "secular" establishment and the media is because of the absence of any study to prove it that the structure was indeed manmade. That it is a chain of limestone shoals or a tombolo is only an offhand suggestion, not the final word. It is important to remember that.

You can prove that the structure is not manmade only after elaborate studies. As there's no such study, the govt. - if it wants to prove to its hapless citizens that it was not a manmade structure - should establish a study group to do the same. Until this group, taking into account archaeological, geological and historical aspects of the structure, proves beyond doubt it is indeed a natural and not manmade structure, the project should be suspended.

The citizens of India have the final word on what they can or cannot do with their land, since they are its rightful owners. This government is a minority government. Coming to power by the first-past-the-post system, it cannot claim to represent the will of the people.

#6:
The citizens of India have the final word on what they can or cannot do with their land, since they are its rightful owners. This government is a minority government. Coming to power by the first-past-the-post system, it cannot claim to represent the will of the people.

You go overboard and sometimes do not realize what you are writing. In India, we do not take referendum to settle each issue. People of India elect their leaders who in turn form the government. A party or a coalition of parties is in power because it represents a majority. I do not know what you mean by a 'minority government'. A party in power is entitled to take certain decisions. If the decisions are not agreeable, they can be challenged in the court (judicial purview) or put to question in Parliament (legislative purview).

If this government wants to go ahead with this project, people of India have two choices- either challenge it in the court or put the question to debate (overthrow of this party) in the Parliament.

Sujai,

By saying this is a minority govt., I'm saying that it has come to power by the first-past-the-post system and therefore, may or may not represent the people. A person who gets elected to the Parliament on a 20% vote cannot be said to represent the will of the people.

I'm not challening the authority of this government. You're right in saying we cannot take referenda for every issue, which is why we have governments with 5-year terms. All I'm saying is that it doesnt really represent the people's will and therefore, it should take the people into confidence by clearing up their apprehensions. One way it can do that is to establish a study group to prove/disprove that the structure is manmade.

I agree with you that the people should put the question to debate in the Parliament. The Opposition has missed the opportunity to put this question to proper debate.

Govind:

If you are seeing me as a Christian trying to claim Hinduism is, from your own words, "mumbo jumbo and stuff that is useless", I must say you are wrong. I am here to talk against religion being used for political or other interests of some religious right groups.


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Kannan:

what does it say about the contention that the bridge actually is Ramarsethu? How is that a fraud?

See my answer to Atlantean below.

Check this out. Please read the articles carefully

I think you forgot to paste the link. Please post it again, thanks.


-----------------------------------

Atlantean:

As there's no such study, the govt. - if it wants to prove to its hapless citizens that it was not a manmade structure - should establish a study group to do the same.

I believe there have been some sound studies conducted on the issue. Also it looks like the studies were ordered by Uma Bharti, the then union minister. Still if any further study proves that the bridge was built in the Ramayana era by men of the epic time, I have no problem in protecting it as a heritage site. I am not here for Hindu bashing, but to voice against the religious right groups misusing the religious sentiments for political benefits.

1) http://www.indianexpress.com/story/31331.html

The Government has conducted various geotechnical studies over the years to end the controversy. Before the project was commissioned, borehole investigations were conducted at 81 locations for up to 20 metres in the Adam's Bridge area. The then Union Minister for Coal and Mines Uma Bharati wanted the GSI to take up a R&D project to establish the paleography of the terrain. The GSI's Project Rameswaram between December 2002 and March 2003 dug up boreholes up to 205 metres.

The study concluded that it is sedimentation. "Core sediment/logs of boreholes indicate presence of compact clay, calcerous sandstone and fossiliferrous limestone deposited in an episodic manner. The sedimentation pattern clearly points to the past sea level fluctuations about 5-7 lakhs years ago.

NASA, shocked at the outrage, clarified on its website, calling the formation a "tomobolo", which is a bar of sand connecting one island with another. "Such tombolos usually indicate a constant sediment source and a strong unidirectional or bi-directional (monsoonal) long shore current," they said.

2) http://www.hindu.com/2007/05/22/stories/2007052204440600.htm


In any case, environmentalists, who are not connected to the BJP, would still campaign to stop the project. And their arguments are pretty sound. The people of Tamil Nadu also seem to be against the project for economic reasons.

These issues need to be dicussed as I mentioned in this article. Focus should now change from the religious angle (since there is no base for it, as of now) to the ones you mentioned.

-----------------------------------

I agree to most of the views expressed by the author.

Sorry Jo, Missed putting the links in.
Here it is.

http://www.ivarta.com/columns/OL_070522.htm

Title is misleading and mischevious n gives n impression as if setusamudrama is a farud though writers himself agres that there is some structure natural or manmade connecting two islands.

In reality fraud may the one member of bandwagon of RSS n such thing can happen anywhere. Even a Hraward professor Prof Witzel introduced himself as profesosr of South east Asian studies in pakistan though he teaches sanskrit there.

Clearly writer is acting like a critic here. he is acting like a piad propangdist of gangs of mao, marx macauley and Mohammed whose sole aim is to demean everything linked to ancinet India, its cultural heritage and civilsiational values especially related to Hindus.

as per Hindu scriptures Lord Rama was born in Treta Yuga. 4 Yugas togather form 4.32 million yerars togather. 40% of this time is satyuga, 30% Treat, 20% dwapar and 10% kalyuga.

This Vikram Samwat 2064 corresponds to kaliyuga era 5109. Add 832000 years of Dwapar and around half of treta and total becomea around 1669000 years.

Age of this `manmade or natural' strcutre connencting two islands is said to be around 17 lakh years ie 1.7 million years which is very clsoe to scriptural timings.

I challange the whole scientific community here if they have any technology till date to determine if a 1.7 yerar old dam is mand made or natural?

Any comments please?

Tajmahal was built by Shahjahan : can anybody produce a single Mughal court order regarding this? Anyone?

Man Singh:
You write utter crap. Such crap should be usually ignored. There are many people who are visited by Aliens everyday and there are some who travel to different planets on UFOs every year. Should one go a disprove all those alien visits or should one just ignore them?

Even if your purported calculations (which are ludicrous to start with) are assumed to be right- that is this bridge was built around 1.7 million years ago. Can you please suggest evidences of people living in the Indian subcontinent at that time?

Indus Valley Civilization which predates Ganges settlement (which spawned Vedic civilization) is less than 6000 years old. So, if Rama ever existed he should have existed not earlier than 4000 BC.

Agriculture in Human History started during 10,000 BC. Prior to that there were NO settlements- no cities or towns, NOT even your beloved Ayodhya.

Err, Sujai, Can you tell me more about the Indus Valley civilization which preceeded the settlement near Ganga?
Who were these people? What did they do? What language did they speak? Whom did they pray to (Unless they were atheists)? Please do give some primary sources to let us verify the facts. Also please note historians like Max Mueller, Romila Thapar do not count for much. They have had to eat their words. So before you issue something out of your mouth(keyboard) using them as props, think twice. Dating the RgVeda is one of the primary pastimes of most eminent historians and they have been fighting amongst themselves to find one date. So lets keep that aside.
But pray do tell us more about the Indus Vally Civilization.

"Agriculture in Human History started during 10,000 BC." - Any sources? Primary ones please. Thank you.
And Ramayana mentions something about agriculture. Hmm.. am not able to recollect it. Can you please reinforce this thing about Agriculture, Ramayana and Ayodhya.

And well, since you have taken up the onus of replying to Man Singh's crap, you might as well go ahead and disprove him, bit by bit, get out all the details. And maybe reopen our eyes towards science. Make us see things for what they are...Maybe really demolish the creaky edifice of Sanatana Dharma? We ignoramusses, need help. We are calling out to you. Please help us...wont you?

#14:
Ignoramus,
I do not consider it to be my duty to increase IQ levels of all idiots on this planet. Almost all attempts in the past to enlighten such souls have turned out to be futile attempts.

However, these links
Indus Valley Civilization
History of Agriculture
may be useful if used rightly.

Any book by Marvin Harris or Jared Diamond or Carl Sagan or Isaac Asimov or for that matter any science book would give these dates approximately at the above dates. Even if there is a debate on Indus valley on its exact period, it is usually +/- 1000 years (or less) and NOT off by 1.7 million years. (For your convenience: 1 million is 1,000,000 years).

Hope this helps. If it doesn't, you could try getting some education (that hasn't actually helped many as such, as seen from various posters on this forum).

Awwww..
With all the mighty education, Sujai has not learnt how to call other people.
Please note Sujai, Adjectives and improper nouns cannot be used to call others. I have a proper noun as a name, and for your ready reference it is right up there.... Hope you get it right. I have the quality of being ignorant.But i am not called an ignoramus... Ok.. now that is out of the way.. What you did is called name calling, which i gather from the previuos discussions on other threads you abhor. Anyway...
Hmm.. so for all the bluster.. you have two wikipedia links. Hmm.. tell me how did you learn so much before wikipedia came into picture? Would it not be really hard.
I read the links. And sir, Sorry to say, the explanation over there leaves a lot to be desired. A language existed. People were literate, but they could never write? What is that?
Tell me Vedas were written or compiled in a book. If the Vedas were taught word of mouth and never written, is it not possible that it existed before the Harappans? Oh how your heart would burn, i am turning around science, but sir, is the science being used to date the Vedas perfect? How do you know that symbols mentioned in Wikipedia link were not some shlokas from the vedas? Prove it otherwise using science. i would be happy to accept it. My explanation is almost absurd, but investigate it if you can.

Now i will return to the main topic after a lot of digression.
RamarSethu existed in the Ramayana. Even if it is a part of the myth. Milions and milions (let me re iterate, this the same 1 milion = 1,000,000 that you mentioned)of people following an arbit religion believe that a bridge (er a tombolo, or a sand formation) is the bridge built by Rama. Now if they say it is not right, should the bridge be still dredged? Oh well, say all you want about science, but are you ready to go against the wishes of a million and many many more? It is a question of faith. Economics can just about keep the traphole shut.Just like so many others are. For you an atheist, it does not matter, simply becoz you do not have the beliefs. But does it give you a right to trample all over the beliefs of others? For all you know as an atheist, your non belief in a concept of God, is itself the starting point of another belief. I am not saying as a God Loving person, your beliefs are wrong or that it does not make any economic sense or anything else. Just as the same, i dont wish you to start questioning my beliefs when it does not harm you a bit. Is that clear sir? or should an ignoramus like me, with all humility, teach you sir, with all the right education, that if you find a belief not in sync with yours, it is not wrong, it is just a diferent belief. For every question that you pose to my belief, i will pose 1 back at you. All you know, you might learn something from people not having the high mighty education that you have. Sir, Live and learn to let others live. People are engaged in a struggle to protect their beliefs and one of them is a bad apple. Dont imply that the struggle is a bad one. Hope the explanation is clear. If not, well Sir, please use the high and mighty education again. maybe it would make sense. no?

#16:
Oh well, say all you want about science, but are you ready to go against the wishes of a million and many many more?

Yes.

Otherwise, we would still have believed that Earth is the Center of the Universe and that a comet is harbinger of disaster. We would still have believed that a woman should be burnt on her dead husband's pyre and that entrails of a bird will spell the outcome of a battle. Our life would have been riddled with superstitions, and our Dalits would have been outside the village cleaning up our toilets. Blacks would have been slaves forever. Negative effects of Superstition, blind belief, orthodoxy can be curtailed by Science- and usually involves the first step of going against the belief of millions. If not for that we would have still believed that Earth was standstill.

A murderer cannot be acquitted just because millions love him or an innocent should not be killed just because a million hate him. A traffic light should not be ignored just because thousands others do it.

Hmmm... So you one should go against the wishes of milions to rid society of its evils, superstitions. Agree. Did science help us? Yes.
but, here we are talking about a belief which is not harming anyone. Infact there are routes which can be followed which makes a difference of only 2km and that too without any more dredging. WHy then should we go against the belief systems? WHy this "Crusade" to borrow a religious term? It is just a manifestation of the militant atheism that the country is fighting against. Atheism which is trying to disprove God, even after hurting the sentiments of milions, for really trivial gains.
Without investigation, a thorough one at that, damaging the bridge is not right. Whatever you say after that, is just a manifestation of the phenomenon after that.

Sujai,

Yes a truth seeker should not discard any idea.

When harappan excavations were carried out in 1920. Britsih n their associates always tried to prove that Aryans were a race invaded India and destroyed it.

Today even BBC in its website says that this AIT was a fraud on history and archeology for imperialistic gains. there are compelling evidence that Indus valley n ganges civilisations were the same.

Two years back scientists use to say that mars is red palenet. today they say its blue palenet with water?

Go deeper sujai, if 6000 years as you mentioned can eliminate one whole civilisation,.
Why we close our mind based on one aspect of archelogy that civilisations are burried in the ground only? Civilisations might have been blown away by winds also? Has anybody till date investigated the same? Nope?

Why? becasue Hindus are the only people left on this earth beimng follwer of ancinet civilisations. Greeks, Egyptians, Ropamsn, maya, inca all civilisations are there in the Museum n scietific community has no interest in our things. It is we who have to take the most positive interpretation of our ancinet literature and gid out the evidence. yes Sujai, it is we to challenge the existing theorries demeaning our ancinet litertaure. Britsih tried to declare all our ancinet literature as `Myth' only because they wanted to destroy the civilsiation n convert whole humanity to chrisianity.

We have to defend ourselves sujai not any western scinec writer or historian or ..

gangs of mao marx macauley and Mohammed want to see this `only living civilisation' to move to museum

My freind sujai, if a 1 cm soil layer is deposited per year, you have to dig around 17 KM deep holes in the earth to reach evidence of that age. Upheavels in earth crest can move sites horizontally as well. India used to be an island can you belive this? Byt jambudweep was its name as per scriptures.

I call upon all Indians who are with India and not with anti Indian gangs of mao marx macauley and mohammed, to be positive (not blind follwers or superstitious) and establish evidence. We belive something written in ancinet books to be true unless proved wrong.

Opposite to it, gangs of 4M's are sayimng they belive everuything in ancinet India to be false unless proven true.

Its upto us wcih side we want to stand. Are we with India n its civilisation or r we with those whose vested interest lies in destrcution of this civilsiation.

People ridiucled Pushpak Viman, today they do not, people ridiculed laxman Rekha today they do not after discovery of unidirectional laser having capacity to kill oneway, people used to ridicule Adwait today they do not after Einstein mass-energy conversion eqaution of E=mc^2 which proves that energy n mass are interconvertible and whole universe is unified energy filed sort of Adwait perpetrated by our forefathers.

I am not saying to become a suprestitious, I am simply asking people to be positive about ancinet scineces and there is no reason why we should not belive them to be true unless proved wrong.

has any scientist in the world has said that theer was not life on earh 1.7 million years ago?

No.

They only say that they have found evidence that life was there on so n so date. Who knows tomorrow they will find evidence that life was very much there 1.7 million years ago as well. Then we'll repent Mr Sujai as we might have destroyed ramsethu and all other symbols of our ancinet civilisations.

Let's work to protect our heritage unless it is hindering our material or spritual propgress. If teher is alternative to destryction of this ancinet monument believed by people to be Ramsethu, why should we destroy it?

ARCHEOLOGICAL REVIEW ON THE INDO-SRILANKAN LAND BRIDGE



Based on the latest report from the Archeological Department of Srilanka

http://www.lankalibrary.com/geo/dera2.html



The land bridge named as Adam's Bridge is a narrow ridge of sand and rocks, mostly dry, which connects Mannar Island (Sri Lanka) with Pamban Island (India) about 18 � miles West-North-Westward. At high tide it is covered by c.4 ft (1.2 m) of water. The status of the bridge is still a mystery as the legends trace the bridge to have more than a million years of existence and related to the epic Ramayana. The Srilankan Archeology Department also confirms the possible duration of the bridge's existence to be around one to two million years. However the natural or man-made status of the bridge is unknown.




S.U.Deraniyagala, the Director-General of Archaeology, Sri Lanka and the author of "Early Man and the Rise of Civilisation in Sri Lanka: the Archaeological Evidence" says that "the Himalayan foothills of the Indian sub-continent have yielded evidence for humans having lived there around two million years ago. Although the earliest known dates for hominids in peninsular India are ca. 600,000 years before the present (BP), it is very likely that future research will indicate an age comparable to that of the Himalayan foothills, since there do not appear to have been any physical barriers to prevent humans from being present in southern India contemporaneously with their occurrence in the northern part of the sub-continent. Meanwhile, it is apparent that Sri Lanka was, more often than not, linked to southern India by a land bridge during this period. It is estimated that the sea level would have dropped sufficiently for creating such a connection on at least 17 occasions within the last 700,000 years. This phenomenon would have been caused by the rise and fall of the sea level due to cold/warm fluctuations in the global climate. The last separation from India would have occurred at about 7,000 BP. It is therefore possible that humans were present in Sri Lanka from at least as early as one million years ago. "







In the archeological report, the bridge is quoted to have been existing for atleast 1 million years to a possible 2 million years at the maximum (since the yielded evidence of humans in India is around two million years). This becomes a crucial clue from the Srilankan counterparts of Archeology about the age of the bridge and its archeological status and hence a detailed investigation is compelling over its structure (probably by seismic or shoal layer or coral reef testing methods) essentially with the help of the governmental organizations. The conventional analysis based on fossil studies (see next section for details) and stereotyped archeology seems to diverge away from the undiscovered truths. At least at this juncture it has to be realized that the paradox between legends and discoveries need to be resolved further for a genuine quest into the past.


Fossil based studies and their drawbacks

The current system of fossil studies is relatively inadequate and conditioned with presumptions by the fact that the dynamics of the geographical plate movements are not known precisely beyond a time domain (in order to trace the history). There is a huge shift in the interior layers of earth every time a pressure shoot in the core occurs and magma rises up to the crust. This could affect the whole quest into the possible remains of the past, especially connected to living species.

For instance if a civilization is destroyed by a natural calamity say about 100000 years back, the possibility of tracing it at the same geographical area is very difficult because of the layer shifts and stronger magma currents. Moreover archeologists do not have a precise methodology for large area transient geographical fossil tracking.

The archeologists claim only to the discovered ones within a few hundred meters depth. So with the discovery of a few hundred skeletons and predicting the possible age of human civilization and characterizing the finding and finally generalizing it will not be logical.

What happens to be the biggest loop-hole in the current system of prediction about the origin of the modern man is the non availability of complete information of fossil scatter area and crust changes. Just like the mismatch in the prediction and formation of tornadoes and hurricanes, fossil studies are also in the same category.

Wow...Man Singh and Kannan..Way to go!

No reply from Sujai yet.
Typical Communist tactic.

1.Throw in some false data.
2.Throw in some insults.
3.Scamper when countered.

#18, Kannan:
You and I got into this discussion on the dating of Indus valley, Ramayana, etc. I have no stand against this Sethuram Bridge (whatever it is).

I am quite ready to argue for it or against based on whether it really destroys the ecosystem and marine life versus what great benefits it brings us.

BUT IN MY WILDEST IMAGINATION, I will not take a stand on this issue based on UFO landings, alien invasions, bird sightings, and of course, the contention that 1.7 MILLION YEARS AGO people build this bridge.

My discussion with you ends there. As I said, I cannot refute hypothesis like those of - aliens built pyramids.

Man Singh:

I am sorry that Archaelogical review of Sri Lanka mixes myth with science NOT knowing what it is talking about. Indian Subcontinent seems to create its own sciences - mixing myth, mysticism, superstition, blind belief with words and languages of science to posit it as their alternative science.

Modern Science is a result of empiricism, not peripatetic investigation nor a byproduct of folklore.

Indian subcontinent, in an effort to make up for their nonperformance, is coming with its own versions.

Its unfortunate and retrograde. But since it is making millions happy, I guess, it is bound to stay- just like soap opera, astrology, vaastu and numerology.

Have fun with your version of archeology.

All pseudo-sciences base their whole existence on what they call as 'gaps' in the explanation of science. This includes creationism.

Man Singh:
Aliens Built Pyramids. Can you refute that?

;-)

Sujai

I dont know what part of the assessment by the Archeological survey of Sri Lanka sounds mythical to you? I believe multiple reports have concluded the same - It is impossible to say whether Adam's bridge is man-made or natural.

Man Singh/ Kannan

I have two issues here. Firstly, we dont have evidence about Ram having existed so trying to Link Adam's bridge to Ramayana may be a little too much. Secondly, since Adam;s bridge has been there for million years and Ramayan is dated to have been written in the 4-5th centure BC (2500 years ago) it is diffcult to say whether Ramayan derived its inspiration from an underwater bridge that already existed. Lastly, many researchers have indicated that the mythical Lanka may not have been Sri Lanka at all. Instead, it may have been islands in Punjab or in Madhya Pradesh.

Over and above all this. Who is protesting? Until the project was discussed nobody had even heard of Adam's bridge. Suddenly it has become controversial. My personal assessment is that there are not many votes to harvest on the basis of Adam's bridge. A party looking to win votes should look at reducing service taxes and income tax. A large number of voters will vote for that party :-)

Chandra:
I believe multiple reports have concluded the same - It is impossible to say whether Adam's bridge is man-made or natural.

Just look at those reports and read through them. What argument have they presented to say it is man made. And if so, when? Even those who contest it is man-made have included the date of 1.7 Million years ago as valid date. Did civilized societies exist at that time. When did we have massive constructions? When did societies develop?

If you know your science a bit, you will know that modern societies, such as kingdoms, cities, etc, did not appear before advent of agriculture. And that happened less than 15,000 years ago after the last Ice Age. Before that humans were hunters and gatherers. Hunter-gatherer societies do not exceed 100-200 people as a group. If they exceed, they usually break up and form new ones.

Without massive resources such as labor, one cannot make such constructions. Labor came about only after advent of agriculture- because now one man can produce more than for his own family, and hence artisans, labor, musicians, kings, soldiers, can now be accommodated as part of the society.

Chandra:
Also, just search for 'Aliens built pyramids' on Google and see the number of 'reports' that appear, even from some archaeological and university sites, actually establishing that aliens built pyramids.

There are too many reports these days. And archeology in the post-colonial world has become more of a propaganda machine than real science. The post-colonial world waking up after missing the Scientific and Industrial Revolution have started to posit their own versions of science and technology. It gives them a satisfaction to know that their ancestors were really great- greater than these western scientists who came later in time. It gives them a sense of pride to know that their ancestors build a massive bridge when the West was not even populated.

These reports are ego-boosters to aggrandize our non-existing achievements.

But, you are entitled your opinions :)

Man Singh:
The archeologists claim only to the discovered ones within a few hundred meters depth. So with the discovery of a few hundred skeletons and predicting the possible age of human civilization and characterizing the finding and finally generalizing it will not be logical.

I usually do not respond to those who claim they have been abducted by aliens. But your claims contain words of science. And that usually goes very well with educated but idiotic Indians.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Do you know how fossils are dated. Do you know that we can map Human evolution all the way to 7 million years ago? Do you know that we can map the existence of different species of Dinosaurs at different periods of time that span more than 300 million years starting back at 150 million years ago? Bacteria dating back to 3 billion years ago is dated.

Wisdom is a little bit different from Knowledge. Some people 'appear' to be wise not having enough knowledge- and that can be dangerous.

India is taking a hit on science on all fronts. No PhDs, no scientists. And we are going down. Thanks to people like you who use words of science to promote myth.

Man Singh:
May be, these corals have some skeletons of monkeys. Haven't you found them yet? Because Ram used monkey army to build this bridge, I am quite sure that some monkey might have died and become part of the coral.
;-)

Sujai

OK Sir, for a change I will accept your argument. It makes more sense.

rgds

Hello Chandra,
I have a question with regards to your comment. Please enlighten me on it.
"I have two issues here. Firstly, we dont have evidence about Ram having existed so trying to Link Adam's bridge to Ramayana may be a little too much. Secondly, since Adam;s bridge has been there for million years and Ramayan is dated to have been written in the 4-5th centure BC (2500 years ago) it is diffcult to say whether Ramayan derived its inspiration from an underwater bridge that already existed. Lastly, many researchers have indicated that the mythical Lanka may not have been Sri Lanka at all. Instead, it may have been islands in Punjab or in Madhya Pradesh."

Did Rama exist?
Then is Ramayana true?
If yes, then how did we date the Ramayana to 4-5th century BC? What is the dating method used? what is the linguistic support for this contention?
If no, then why did we even try to date Ramayaha?
For the Punjab and MP hypthesis, do we have any data supporting the presence of a island there? If yes, then can we please get it (primary sources?)? If no, then the other contention that the bridge is indeed man made will hold as much water as this one.

As regards to the whole issue, if the Ramar sethu hypothesis has not been disproved, there is no reason why it should be demolished when it hurts the sentiments of milions.
Let people conclusively disprove it, and let them demolish it. i have no issues with that.

The tamil sayinig goes like this
Kannale parthadhum poi
kaadhaale ketadhum poi,
teera vijaripadhu mai

What is see is not true,
What you hear is not true,
What you investigate fully is the truth

Kannan

There is no archaelogical evidence to suggest Rama existed.

There is no archaelogical evidence to suggest Ramayana is true.

We dated Ramayana (the text) to 4-5th century BC on the basis of archaelogical evidence- coins etc

Punjab/MP are research projects by individuals. They are as strong or as weak as Sri Lanka being the mythical Lanka

I think Sujai presents a strong case on why it is not man made. If you have a counter argument on why it is manmade..i am willing to accept. I am not an expert please.

I am not convinced that there is a huge body that opposes the project on religious grounds. Are there any specific groups- Name them and web-sites that I can look up for? Thanks

rgds

Links:
NASA debunks Rama bridge theory
Communication experts say that false, suspect news finds much greater circulation than normal because of the internet. NASA's Hess said, "The images reproduced on the websites may well be ours, but their interpretation is certainly not ours."

"It's not a man-made structure"
Adam's Bridge is not a man made structure rather it's a geological phenomenon, according to N. Ramanujam, Head, Post Graduate Department of Geology and Research Centre, V.O. Chidambaram College, here.

Hello Chandra,
So if no archealogical evidence exists, does it pre-empt the case of Ramayana's existence? Or does it just pose a question? I am sure it does pose a question, which i guess you had made clear in your earlier comment that there is a debate as to whether Rama existed.

Just wanted to know how the coins (archealogical proofs) say that Ramayana dates back to the period you mentioned? Is there a link, i would love to go through it.
I just thought it does not make too much sense if Ramayana can be dated, but the hero does not exist. As in does it not seem like a typical case, where a story is considerd to be true, but the hero false and thereby contradicting the whole story and making it into a myth?

Rama for the record, exists in many hearts all over the world. So archealogical evidence might be zero, but heart still believes in him.

Kannan, #34:
Rama for the record, exists in many hearts all over the world. So archealogical evidence might be zero, but heart still believes in him.

So should the bridge!
(exist in the hearts, not on the planet)

Those who call ancinet Indian literature as `Crap' under influence of imperialists, I request them to read Narad Purana published by Geeta Press Gorakhpur which contains atronomical calculations accurate to 88 digits.

even the super computer till date is accurate only upto 64 Bits.

So far as archeology is concerned nobody came froward so far how deep archeologists have reached till date?

Even in Hyderabad a Fossil of few Million years have been found?

I wonder why ignore our own evidences and try to stick to considerably inaccurate archeological evidence only.

Indian listerature has atronomical evidences which are more scientific and accurate then archeology. the plenetary locations mentions at the time of lord Rama's birth , the Horoscope of Lords Rama is avaliabale for anybody to study and back calculate when such plenetraty position might have occured in past.

Truth is that our educated class is brainwashed by gangs of mao, marx, macauley and Mohamemd with single point propganda that ancinet Indian literature is a Myth and not truth?

Do we have same opinion about islamic or christian literature.

is there any evidence that angels exist? If not then how come Quarn can be revealed to Moahmemd by an angel? Do we have courage to say that Mo was simply lying as no angels exists scinetifically?

Calcutta High court has given a Judgement that as Quarn has come from God and hence its hatemogering parts can not be banned because Indian constitution is applicable only for books written by human beings.

Why such double standards for Indian and foreign books/Heritage?

We are ready to belive every sht from foreign lands and not ready to belive even the marvelous scientific achivements of ancinet Indians?

I call upon India lovers to be positive about their heritage. Evidence will come sooner of later. Inacauracies are everywhere n our forfathers might not have been the exception.

Look how medical scineces work. One medicine is declared good today and bad after few years.

Look how inaacurate are our weather forcasting ?

What I mean to say is that all scineces are incmoplete and carry certain level of inaccuracy. So is Archeolgy.

Should we destroy trurth invenetd by our frofathers after generations of hard work only becasue they seem to be incompatible to certain inaccurate scineces of today?

Think think n think deep. Don'nt listen to gangs of 4 M who have out of India loyality and take your own decisions.

Chandra,

Read my argument again please.

I have horoscope of Lord Rama along with his date of birth. What else evidence you need? I have ayodhya, Chitrakoot, Pampa sarowar, Ram Bridge, Lanla, Even Ashok vatika in lanks even today.

You people belive Britisgers more then valmiki and Tulsidas and Vedvyas. British Historians denounced each and everything of our civilisation. Ashoka was equated with Akbar and alexendar though Akbar imposed zaziya on non muslims and ordered Jihad n destruction of tempels and I can produce his court documents . But gangs of mao marx macauley n mohammed hide the truth and brainwash us that Akbar wa sas great as Ashoka n we belive without questioning.

Lord rama was born around 1.7 million years ago. If you assume one inch dust accumulated per yaer it becomes around 40 KM layer till date on earth. have any archeologist dig in upto 40 KM till date.

ye my freinds, let dig the eartn upto 100 Kilometers to find out archeologial evindeve of that yugas and we have to do it.

But before doing it let's not declare something to be false.

A brige made out of clay or stone will become uniform sedimentation in 1.7 million years and there is no technology to establish if something originated 1.7 million years ago is natural or manmade. therefore those who are spreading teh lies that its is natural are simply lying as they have no criteria to establish mode of construction of such timeless monuments.

Please think.

If you are truly intersted in knowing the truth, I can show you Lord Rama even today in human form and you can ask him if he existed or not?

Anybody who is sincere in truth seeking, I can train them free in the scinece of how to see God and his Avatars. It is 6 years rigorous course in sprituality. It can make you eligible to see God and all his avaytars eliminating all your confusions.

Has Lord Rama met Sir Rushdie?

Better yet- met Mr.Banker?

Kannan

I think you have every right to believe Rama existed and that the Ramayana is a true story. However it is always advisable to differentiate between having evidence and not having evidence.
As far as I am concerned, there is no evidence.

Secondly, the Archeological evidence indicates the period when references to Ramayana were first indicated, not to the period when Ramayana actually took place (if at all). There is contoversy regarding this as well, some seem to date it as late as 200 AD.

The constitution allows you to believe and do whatever you want. No problem. But in order to prove Adam's bridge was built by Ram we need solid evidence. We dont have that now.


cheers

Chandra...

I do not think that the advancement in sciences and technology that we see today is the consequence of an elevation in human genetic composition simply because mutations take much-much longer to settle in any useful set pattern.Is that true???

Even otherwise a cursory glance tells us that most of the advancements that have taken place have been work of handy few or work of serendipity.

Given that as background, one should not conclude that humans of distant past say 1 lac years old or so were sub-optimal(in intelligence) compared to the lot we have today. Thus why should we conclude that civilizations in that distant past would not have been more advanced (in the thousands of years they lived) than our own modern scientific civilization which is only few hundred years old?

If modern scientific civilization is product of a set of few random people making breakthrough discoveries/inventions what theory rules out presence of such random but extremely brilliant people in the distant past or Am I missing something.

hardy

where did I say anything that you claim I said

rgds

Man singh #37...You said...

Anybody who is sincere in truth seeking, I can train them free in the scinece of how to see God and his Avatars. It is 6 years rigorous course in sprituality. It can make you eligible to see God and all his avaytars eliminating all your confusions.

If it is possible just 6 years, it should also be possible to for such enlightened persons to come up with various proofs like Fermat's last theorem or solve Riemann hypothesis or Hilbert's problems as for such people these problems would be trivial by their standard. What are your claims?

#42...Oh...Well i was just enquiring, collecting opinions. I thought you may have one.

#42...Oh...Well i was just enquiring, collecting opinions. I thought you may have one.

All you have to do is allow a fool to talk for a while. And wait for him to make a big fool of himself. We just don't need to do anything.

Man Singh:

You write:
Lord rama was born around 1.7 million years ago. If you assume one inch dust accumulated per yaer it becomes around 40 KM layer till date on earth. have any archeologist dig in upto 40 KM till date.

Where did you go to school? What do they teach there.

If I go with your assumptions, Earth, which is around 4.5 Billion years old, should have accumulated dust of 100,000 KM in height.

And before you start explain this- Earth's diameter is less than 13,000 KM. ;-)

Please! for the sake of mankind, just stop your gobbledygook. It is increasing the per capita of idiocy on this planet at an alarming rate.

Yes my freinds,

here is where honesty is needed.

I can understand the reaction when a human mind trained in particular way of thinking gets altogather fresh ideas. many times people dump such fresh ideas as `crap'. I never mind.

I have question?

How many of you belive tajmahal was built by Shahjahan in the fond memory of his beloved wife Mumtaj?

Do you have any evidence for that other then a diary of Italina treveller who wrote the statement based on what people told him?

Mughal courts issue official orders even for construction of small mosques by their kings but such a huge strcuture was built n no officuial order for it? is it amazing? then why are we beliveing it?

Only because histrorians have brainwashed us what to belive and what not to believe.

If diary of an Italina travellers is considered as an evidence, then why not valmiki or Tulasidass and age old tradition of ramleela condidered as an evidence?

please think my freind? why we belive everything foreigners tell us and disbelive what our own people tell us? statement of angrej becomes beliveable and statement fo vedvyas not? Why? This is waht Slavish mentality is (I am sorry for any offence) but it is true.

let's be honest. let's use the same yardstick fro tajmahal and Ramsetu or Ram?

O Bharatputro, belive in Bharat n not in England. England contaminated your minds only to make you eprmanent slaves. Please.

Think depeer. Think why a diary of Italian is considered `evidence' in tajmahal case while ancinet literature is not considered evidence in case of Ram or Ramsetu. Please think.

Hardy, I did not experimented usage of spritual powers in solving mathematical problems. I was too busy so far in enlightening the prople spritaully as `stress management' is more important then Fermi's theoreem for humanity.

I p[romise I'll open a separate department for use of sprituality in solving mathematical problems. I honestly admit that I never used it so far in that area. I need a team and if you are good matehrmatician, I will be happy to team with you in this new area of research. most welcome to Team hardy.

let's finalise this issue first.

Ayodhya, saryu ganga yamuna, sangam, chitrkoot godavari, rameshwaram, lanka everything is here as evidence but we still say there is no evidence.

hastinapur, kurukshetra, indraprasth, dwarika , magadh mathura gokul everything is here. Dwarika city has been found submerged in teh sea. Srmadbhagwat describes that Lord Krishna told yadu elders that dwarika will submerge in sea after my leaving tyhis mrityulok.

Why we disbelive still. Go n check age of this submerged city of dwarika and Ruins fort of hastinapur. Please. Why archeologists are shy to go there? This commies government has stopped propejct of search of alignment of saraswati river and minister said its of no use to search a non existenece river? what a hypocricy?

Yes my freinds gangs of mao marx macauely and mohamemd will never allow within their powers that imperilaistic designs aimed at destruction of this timeless civilisation get recognition.

Those who love Bharat , its people and its civilisational values has to challenge thee theories established by imperialists and their local associates.

let me repeat again:

If a diary of a Italian travellor is considered as `evidence' of tajmahal built by shahjahan, then why not literature written by our own people not consiederd the same?

Imperilaists wanted exactly this from our people that we should belive them n not our own brothers and sisters.

please think.

did anyone bothered to read naradpuran containing atronomical calculations accurate upto 88 digits?

Please do if you r a n honest truth seeker.

Look teh glimpse n glory of ancinet Indian wisdom. Even super computer today is 64 bit till date. scinetists are tryinbg for 128 bit though.

Excellent encounter guys. I am no historian. But there are many legends, sources and historical sites in Sri Lanka which substantiate that there was a King Ravana. Any thoughts?

The quality of debate here is the same as witnessed in india's political landscape. 1. One group calls the other saffron brigade 2. The "saffron" guys kill their case by going to the unscientific extremes of their imagination. 3. Group one ("pseudo-secularists?) rubbishes any scientific finding that supports Group two's contention; and accepts other similar findings so long as it suits them

The evolving nature of scientific enquiry allows both groups to quote respectable studies. (you will find conflicting theories on everything from evolution to dinosaurs, to the reasons for extinction of species and so on...)
But soon everything degenerates into personal squabbles.

`respectable studies'?

Studies are not important. Important is the attitude n intention by which studies are carried out.

Id studies are carried out to search the truth or to damage a civilisation intentionally.

Lions and Hunters have two diferent view point of the same event of Hunting n killing of lion.

Lions feels what a cruel person the killer n agresor is who is invading our Jungles so barbarically.

Hunters and their associates feel that they are so brave and can even hunt a lion.

We have to decide if we are with Hunters or we are with Lions. Then only our viewpoint will be reasonable.

Foreign invaders and their local associates are glorifying the hunters while Lions are expressing the cruelty of Hunters.

No scinetific investigations has been focussed till date on ramayan or Mahabharat Site.

You will find hardly any archeological reports on Hastinapur or Kurukshetra.

But yiou will find many history students doing research on how darupadi managed with 5 husbands at a time?

This is the state of affairs of Indian historical and archeological research. Most of their time n momney is wasted in carrying out studies to proove that :

1. Invaders were very good human beings
2. Even Aurangjeb the kilelr of great Gurus was charitable perosn.
. Pre Invader India was rubish.

We have to challenge the scenerio. This struggle ie between India VS foreign even today.

gangs of Mao, Marx, macauely and Mohamemd stamnd for foriegn.

Loyalist to India stand for Indian.

Lions wants to write their own history today otherwise world will belive what hunters wrote about them.

Well, I totally agree with you that we must make sure our history is written and portrayed the way it was.

By the way, have you been to Kurukshetra, near Karnal? There is a good bit preserved there.

There are a number of vested interests who have been writing our history to suit their own ends. Since independence, much of that has been done by the forces you mention, only because they had the reins of government in their hands.

My point is, in portraying the other side of the story we still need to maintain balance. In doing so, the existence of Dwaraka and the existence of that city on the floor of the sea of the Gujarat coast should be cited, for example. But dont overdo it by insisting on things like UFOs and an alien race having come here to build and so on.

Our forfathers have left very strong evidence of history. This eveidence is never dying and can be cross verified by anybody anywhere in teh world even if you are not archeologists or Historian.

that perfect evidence is Astronomical evidence.

For most of the event plenetry positions have been recorded and it can be back calculated when such combination of planets might have oocured.

It is an open challenge to Indian intellectuals to dig out the truth.

there is nothing to believe or be faithful. let's be scientific in approach but not negative towards our civilisational values.

based on such atronomica evidence we can find out when Rama , Krishna etc were born. even their horoscopes has been preserved to anybody's surprise.

Another issue here is attitude. Islam and Christinaity always focus on teh wordings of teh story.

Ourforfathers always focussed on moral of teh story. that's why while Islam n christianity insist on `only true God' and `only word of God' we have thousands of Gods and thousands of religious books but all contain the same moral of the story.

therefore let's stop weighhing Indian civilisation with scale of islam or christianity as they are altogather in different plane of thinking.

This jo is a christian propagater and never believe this fraud... We Hindus know where when and what we should approve a project India is a Hindu country Jai Bharat Mata! Jo you go back to Jeruselam or some christian countires and live.. Leave India as soon as possible.

In supreme Court of India all parties have agreed that till date no acheological survey has been done for this site.

Age of stones has been estimated to be around 1.7 million years that almost matches with Lord Rama's time as per scriptures. 5200 years of Kaliyuga, 864000 rears of dwapar and 129600 years of Treta. Total time 1.296 Millions to 2 million years.

There is no technology available till date any where in teh world to evalauate a structure of 1.7 million years of age if it is man made or natural.

If anybody knows it please share and present if it has been used in assessing the Sethu's status.

RAM SETHU.. NEVER DARE TO TOUCH.. SONIA WILL BE OUT OF THE COUNTRY IF SHE SUPPORTS THIS BLUNDER.

1)Cho Balakrishnan, a Congress MLA of Ramanathapuram District went to break the coconut inaugurating Setusamudram project work. He had a heart attack and died the same evening.



2)The Aquarium dreger of Dredging International of Belgium was engaged to break the Rama Setu. Its spud broke and the 50-tonne elephant like metal scrap is still lying on Sandbank 6 of Rama Setu unsalvaged.



3)A crane named Hanuman was brought from Dredging Corporation of India in VIshakapatnam to recover the broken spud. The Hanuman crane which could lift upto 200 tonnes also broke and had to return.



4)A dredger of DCI sank in the Bay of Bengal even before reaching Rama Setu.




5)A Russian engineer and a foreign dredger were brought to continue the effort to break Rama Setu. The engineer broke both his legs and had to be hospitalized in Apollo Hospital.



6)Tamilnadu Congress President Mr. Krishnaswami was attacked by unknown assailants on his way from Rama Setu towards Madurai. An attempted stabbing was foiled by the Rama medallion he wore on his gold chain. His family members attributed this saving of his life by Rama medallion.

I am sure Jesus Christ never existed, what is the proof for jesus existed its allcooked up story. he is a myth and all the Indians are basically Hindus including this author jo.... let him say his ancestors were the whites... hahahaha. whether jo existed??? is if he is existing today means RAMA sure existed 5-4th centruy. this BC is a crooked technique for making others fools so no BC business. There was no Christ at all all fake.

There is enough proof that Jesus was a myth. also, Jesus being born to a virgin is at best a joke. No scientist worth his salt will say such a thing was possible with a straight face. That leaves Jesus' birth like his death a myth. Also, if one traces the story of Adam and Eve, Eve and Adam had 3 sons. So if the rest of the generation was produced then one of Eve's son impregnated Eve. so there you go. From Adam to Jesus the story of christianity is a joke.

Narayanan:

""There is enough proof that Jesus was a myth.""

Perhaps. So?