Desicritics Comments on The Prickly Porn Pickle: Does Erotica Thrill, Chill Or Kill A Relationship?

Comment by amitscorpio

Thu, 14 Jun 2007 12:55:34 EDT

I feel good for troubledwife ... really thanx aditi, your article saved a relationship!!! (#18)//What a fun read and great title! How in the world did you come up with that!!! // Totally agree with Mohnish!!! #6 what Alessia wrote makes sense, having shared interest kind of gives strength to the bonding in relationship, and if its watching porn, it might turn out to be educative. About talking it before marriage, I agree to the point made by Aditi (#11), things might change after the marriage and kids. But even to start with, its hard to imagine talking about porn while meeting your to-be-spouse (i am talking about arranged marriage!!). What if the girl never watched porn and rejected the guy on that point, and what if they didn't talk about it before and she watched some of the stuff after marriage and liked it. (I am not trying to ignore the case if she didn't like it, in that case he might want to sacrifice it for her.) My take is, watch together if you both like it, watch alone if you really feel the need but keep your partner aware of it, stop watching if it hurts your partner. Strip clubs after marriage are kind of no no for me for no specific reasons!!

Comment by ravi

Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:16:49 EDT

[continuation from #38; i had to split my comment because i got a "too many URLs for one comment" complaint :-(] also see http://tinyurl.com/28s6wm and http://tinyurl.com/2gjh66 Zmag.org has a lot of articles on porn, not all toeing the same lime.

Comment by ravi

Fri, 1 Jun 2007 14:15:54 EDT

* here's a very thoughtful article by Robert Jensen: http://tinyurl.com/39a8aq * here's an article about one of his talks: http://tinyurl.com/2q5udm

Comment by Aditi Nadkarni

Fri, 1 Jun 2007 02:34:15 EDT

Correction! Amrita in the above comment I meant "strip joints in the Midwest compared to more liberal CA"

Comment by Aditi Nadkarni

Fri, 1 Jun 2007 02:31:28 EDT

Hello people, sorry for disappearing. The discussion seems to have moved along quite a bit :) Amrita #23: You do have a point about the Midwest. I have lived in quite a few states in the US and the trends with respect to strip joints in the US seems to be a lot different than even in the more liberal CA. Economics might explain part of it now that you mention it. Mohnish: You uphold my faith in Indian men! Not just because you chose top speak in favor of women's independence but also because you clarified that Siffer does not represent most men. Ever since I started writing on this forum I've had quite a few neighbours, university researchers etc reading this site, scouring through my articles and for some of them it is a representation of all things Indian. They were horrified by some of the responses my "My Dad, The Feminist" post received. So the chauvinistic hater blahs were doing quite a bit of damage as far as creating a twisted picture about Indian society was concerned. It had started making me nervous. I have to agree with Deepti on the "sexual object" comment though. Sexual chemistry is always a healthy aspect of viewing the opposite sex but shouldn't be the only one and should be accompanied by a certain level of respect. SS: Thanks for keeping some of the discussion going...the advice your gave to TroubledWife (hopefully HappyWife now:)) was something I would've suggested too. TroubledWife: I am glad things worked out well for you. I would like to add that do not let things like that affect your self-esteem. I know it is easier said than done but you have to find things that will help boost your confidence. If you are not confident, you will always hestitate in bringing up such issues with your husband and I hate to say this but there won't always be an article about the concern you are facing in your marriage. Nonetheless, I am glad my article was useful to you. Anand #31: The terms "conservative" and "liberal" in terms of political views and in terms of society, religion or culture are quite different, as I am now learning. So I am tempted to agree with part of your comment. I have seen quite a few contradictions since my coming to the US.

Comment by Ayush T

Fri, 1 Jun 2007 01:07:35 EDT

lmao.. well said Aaman

Comment by Aaman

Fri, 1 Jun 2007 00:44:41 EDT

Great, maybe you'll change your nickname now:)

Comment by smallsquirrel

Fri, 1 Jun 2007 00:33:43 EDT

troubled wife... good for you and really, kudos to your husband for being aware enough to see himself and his actions and committing to making a change. now make sure that you give him positive reinforcement for that change...we all need motivation. I am glad you took that step, it seems you realize that your self-esteem was suffering and you took action! brilliant job! take no mind of siffer... just an angry man who, unlike your husband, has no interest in change or being in a caring relationship. he's just a ranter.

Comment by TroubledWife

Thu, 31 May 2007 23:16:36 EDT

SS Thank you for the advice. Believe it or not, I actually showed my husband this article and he din know that my comment was the one in here but I think he felt bad and asked me if I felt the same way. He apologized and said hewill stop if it makes me uncomfortable. Guess Im luckier than most women but the one thing Id like to add is that comment 26 is very offensive to women and men both. First of all siffer speaks as if he reprsents all men and second he forgets that even if sex is supposed to be a part of man woman relationship viewing the opposite sex solely as a sexual object is like disrespecting their other assets. Aditi Nadkarni: I want to thank you for this article and for raising an issue that people dont like to discuss. I have posted many queries to other websites asking for advice but having my hubby read this article made him realize how big of an issue this could be. When he read that "self-esteem" part he turned to me and asked me if I felt that way. I feel better now.Thank you.

Comment by Anand Menon

Thu, 31 May 2007 12:46:07 EDT

Aditi: re #21 i don't think that city in Ohio is conservative...it sounds quite liberal:)).. Anyway...these bible thumping conservatives have always publicly professed piety and privately practiced prurience....so the terms conservative or liberal don't really matter.

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Thu, 31 May 2007 12:10:45 EDT

Subconsciously we are always evaluating the opposite sex as sex objects. Its biological, the only difference is whether we give in to the attraction or not.

Comment by smallsquirrel

Thu, 31 May 2007 11:42:09 EDT

mohnish... you rock. you are a true Indian man. We applaud you. We love you. God(s) bless you.

Comment by Mohnish

Thu, 31 May 2007 11:37:54 EDT

Siffer #26: Indian men would like to note that Siffer #26 speaks only for himself and not for us. We have the confidence to not feel threatened by the fact that a woman is independent. We don't view women as sexual objects and just because Siffer's own life was made miserable by the woman he married, doesn't mean he gets to speak on behalf of all Indian men. He does however reserve the right to sob in a corner by himself. Siffer, this discussion is for people who plan to be in relationships or are in one....so you should leave. Whether you go to a strip joint or watch porn shouldn't matter to anyone. After all what can a lonely woman-hater do with his spare time? We understand.

Comment by LS

Thu, 31 May 2007 10:28:26 EDT

Can I recommend an interesting book that might give you a sense of what goes on in men's minds re: porn and strippers, as well as what strippers are thinking? It's a new book BACHELOR PARTY CONFIDENTIAL: A Real-Life Peek Behind The Closed-Door Tradition by David Boyer. It's filled with interesting, insightful stories and opinions on bachelor parties and marriage from real men and women. Check it out HERE

Comment by Siffer

Thu, 31 May 2007 09:38:43 EDT

Hey Guys, Chill out. Everyone knows one's limits. Its the libertarian era and everyone has a choice. So, why should there be moral policing for men or women? Women need not go to strip clubs. Given a chance, many in India may get ready to strip in the street or in the malls. At present, they are just afraid of radical conservatives (like Bajrang Dal). There are Indian women, who enjoy sex in park benches in bright day light in front of all others. Thats certainly very healthy according to Indian liberal left. So, whats wrong if some Indian men go to strip clubs in West? Some "feminists" are have suddenly started feeling unfomfortable as men are gaining due to reduction in moral policing. I must tell, the Indian men must be so pissed off with their wives that they are heading to all these places. Many feminists fail to realise that many Indian men have lost hope of love, understanding, support or care from a wife. According to them, the only thing a wife provides them is sex (togetherness is rarely a priority for men). When wife and marriage is all about sex for these Indian men, they wont mind taking all these diversions. Women can always keep drawing lines and enforce them on men in a dogmatic manner, but men can always find better ways in today's complex world. Men, unlike women follow simple, but robust methods towards achieveing their goals and interests. They are extremely focused as well. It is upto Indian women to ponder what men really want (apart from sex). How many women (excluding hopeless feminists) ever even bother to ask that question? When the "Give and Take" equations get against men, they display all kinds of behaviours.

Comment by smallsquirrel

Thu, 31 May 2007 03:00:02 EDT

troubledwife... sounds like you guys have a lot of issues going on at once. I will say up front that I really believe that if it had not been this issue, it would have been something else. (I do not mean that as meanly as it sounds) I say that because of this... your husband continues to disrespect you by doing something that obviously makes you uncomfortable and upset. That is not a good sign. But you also have to gain some confidence. Your husband's callous actions should not cause you to neglect yourself and lose self worth. Your image of yourself should not be so tightly bound to your husband. I know that is easier said than done, but clearly this man has respect issues... You need to have a discussion with him and try to make him understand that what he is doing is hurting you. You should think very hard beforehand about how you want to word this. If you simply forbid him, he will not listen. If you nag, he will not listen. You must tell him in whatever way he will understand as an individual. You said yourself you are simply adjusting in order to avoid a fight, but this will not help you. In the end, you will end up miserable and the marriage will suffer. I wish you the best of luck.

Comment by TroubledWife

Thu, 31 May 2007 02:24:33 EDT

My husband n I met in India n we had an arranged marriage. He never went to dance bars or anything. When we come here to the US he started visiting strip clubs because his friends went. On Friday nights or over weekends or when we went to atlantic city etc he went to a strip clubs and sometimes I was stuck with his frenz' wives. I am not used to it and it makes me very upset really. He is not having sex with them nor is he emotionally attached to them like SS said but it is a matter of how we wer raised. If it feels wrong it feels wrong. I put on some weight fel unattractive.His going to the strip bar does not help. I have told him it makes me uncomfortable but he says its a social thing and all his friends do it. So I just adjust now to avoid fights. But it is unfair. I like life in the US overall but I feel that if we were in India he might've thought a lot before making even ocassional vsits to a dance bar like Aditi says. Good article and important issue for couples in general.

Comment by Amrita

Thu, 31 May 2007 01:32:04 EDT

Beth, Aditi, SS - there's one more issue: economics. Dee mentioned the whole "I'm putting her through college" rationale that some people bring up and while that IS funny, it's also true that stripping is often a financial decision. which kind of relates back to the power issue. Who owns it, who does it, who gets to watch it. As for Indians and strip clubs - the ones I know were young guys who definitely saw the US as the land of sex. Not all of them but enough so that it was noticed by the international student admins who made it a point to mention that MTV wasn't a comprehensive representation of the United States. What I remember most of that talk during orientation is that it really offended a friend of mine who thought it sort of racist for the lady to assume they were all sex addicts - and the very next day he told me all about the strip club he'd been to and how great it was and how he couldnt wait to go back :) I think for a lot of them it was a rite of passage and a few got really hooked on it for whatever reason. And in a weird way, it's the midwest that really attracts this crowd or so it seems to me. NYC has far more to offer but I know extremely few people who take up its offer than out in Michigan (where the above incident took place) where I knew dozens of guys who'd been at least once.

Comment by smallsquirrel

Thu, 31 May 2007 00:49:56 EDT

Aditi.., I know what you mean. It's also a generational thing, cause i doubt those guys would tell their moms they did that! LOL. It's also a class issue, where the working class might openly visit those grimy little bookshops with the peep shows, etc. but the white collar dudes will only go to higher end strip clubs (just as nasty, in my opinion) for "special occasions"), watch porn in their hotel room when they are on business trips, or call an escort service. (I have just made some big generalizations... I know) I think strip clubs must exist in Bombay. If you can find rampant child prostitution, it's hard to believe that there are not underground strip joints. They busted up a ring of them in Pondi, so you figure Mumbai must have a bunch! Probably they are rub my the mob and no one talks about them in the open, tho.

Comment by Aditi Nadkarni

Thu, 31 May 2007 00:38:57 EDT

SS: Bringing a stripper home to mom, LOL...that would NOT go well! Hehe. I might've rambled in that whole #19 middle para but that is what I was kinda getting at...the more "out in the open" situation. I mentioned the misrepresentation by media aspect and the whole issue of Eastern nations having their own means of erotic entertainment. Porn of course is universal :D Just to give you an example of the point I was trying to make: The city where I live in Ohio is very small and still has 5 strip joints and countless adult shops. The crowd is very conservative (as most of the Mid-west is) but on Friday nights it is very common to hear guys (even the married ones) make mentions of a visit to the strip club. People don't seem very bothered or outraged. Now maybe I'm being presumptious, naive, I dunno, but even though Bombay is very metropolitan there aren't any nudie bars that I have seen (maybe as you say they aren't out in the open) and god forbid if a guy mentions a visit to a dance bar, he is labelled unchaste or indecent. I don't agree with that mentality at all and personally prefer things to be out in the open but the fact remains that it is comparatively more taboo in India than it is here.

Comment by smallsquirrel

Thu, 31 May 2007 00:19:50 EDT

Monish... I do not agree that looking at someone, clothed or unclothed, and having a fantasy about them is tantamount to cheating. I mean, OK, strip clubs are kinda seedy environments... but whether that person is in front of you, on a screen or in a magazine, if you are not physically or emotionally involved with them, how is it cheating? It could be indicative of other problems, either with you or a relationship, but it's not cheating. Personally, I know my husband will not stop finding other women attractive, just as I have not stopped noticing other men. I am sure he has seen some cute thing at some point and wondered what she looks like naked. Do I care? not so much. He loves me, and we have a healthy relationship. Just because he is married does not mean he stops noticing the rest of the world. What is wrong about the mentioned strip club scenario is not that the guy was going, but that the guy was going when he KNEW it made the wife uncomfortable. Aditi... as for a "western" perspective to strip clubs.... well... I think it's a question of things being moew out in the open there, not necessarily more accepted. Here in India, those things exist, as do porn movies, etc but when men go they don't talk about it except maybe to their male friends. In the US, these places exist, and they are pretty stigmatized. But they are still marginalized places. Not too many guys would date a stripper, and you certainly cannot bring a stripper home to mom. So in that way, no, it's not "acceptable". And for the most part they are equated with prostitution in the west as well. I know that TV, movies and music would have you believe differently (esp if you watch music videos) but those media are never a really good representation about how most people live within a given culture. :)

Comment by Aditi Nadkarni

Wed, 30 May 2007 23:01:03 EDT

#17 Beth: You bring up a very interesting point! The issue of control is very important when it comes to strip clubs especially. The idea of a man sitting and watching, as a woman disrobes is sensual usually, but when the guys is paying for the show, it skews the equation towards the "control" factor that you speak of. Now, coming to the "Westerners have treated strip clubs and porn as entertainment" statement that I make: Usually I am VERY careful about making such statements. In fact I avoid generalizations but the fact remains that "strip-clubs" are largely a Western concept, I will however not deny that Eastern nations have their own forms of burlesque/ erotic performances. In the United States, strip dancers come under the category of 'independent contractors'. In Eastern nations there is a lot of social stigma associated with such performances and they are equated to prostitutes. If one were to try and release a song that said "I'm In Love With A Stripper", it would be promptly censored. There are no male strip clubs that I know of. Here, popular TV shows (Friends, Seinfeld etc), movies, songs on the radios portray strippers as people who pursue this line of work like one would pursue any profession. Maybe it is misrepresentation but that is what the West is perceived based on. In India, I think one would hear an audible gasp if a guy mentioned a "dance bar" visit. I don't mean to say that it is completely passable in the US but compared to the East, the West is more tolerant both legally and socially towards the idea of strip clubs. I agree that such generalizations can be misleading and speak only in the context of cultural acceptability in this post. Mohnish: I agree with your perspective on the whole "lack of guilt" issue. That does worry me as well.

Comment by Mohnish

Wed, 30 May 2007 22:30:22 EDT

What a fun read and great title! How in the world did you come up with that!!! I think that men who are addicted to porn have self-esteem issues. Why else would a visual distraction be a substitute for something that is SO much more gratifying? Visiting a strip club is an odd experience for those who are in a committed relationship, I think. I went for a bachelors' party and my married friends looked guilty ALL the time. They didn't enjoy it and the groom looked like he was going to throw up when he was bought a lap-dance (either coz of too much beer or becoz his wife-to-be would find out later). Aditi, i dunno if other guys would agree with me but I think visiting a strip club and lusting after a person who is right there in front of you does kinda amount to cheating. Guys say that its just about sex and nothing else when they are indulging in strip clubs etc but that ability to dissociate one's thoughts so completely from the committment and focusing entirely on the sex itself is troublesome. Don't they feel guilty I wonder? If they don't then thats even more scary. I felt sorry fro your friend who had to wait at your home while her husband made that strip-club visit. That is just wrong.

Comment by Beth

Wed, 30 May 2007 20:30:52 EDT

Here's an element I don't think anyone has mentioned yet: power. Porn and strip clubs both have a lot to do with the power and control of who gets to do the watching - and who chose to be watched (and how freely, really, did they choose that job/career). There is much about both porn and strip clubs that looks unequal to me - one being the consuming, but others are pure and simple enjoyment and equitable participation. Overall I say if adults are involved and the choices are genuinely free, then what business is it of mine, but it's really, really important to think about what you're choosing. In many ways it's not really just about you. Also, I'm not really sure what you mean by westerners treating these things with casual regard. There are certainly some Americans who do, but it's not universal, as our increasingly vocal conservative population demonstrates. It strikes me that Americans are usually _not_ casual about anything relating to sex - in the media, anyway, it seems we often swing unhealthily between oversexualizing all sorts of images and or other aspects of cultures that have nothing to do with sex (selling hamburgers, for example, thank you to a recent Hardee's commercial) and reacting very puritanically to something that is a normal, healthy part of life. Other western nations - France or the Netherlands, for example - would be another story altogether. Then again, the very private nature of some aspects of porn and strip clubs means that it's especially ahrd to generalize to national levels.

Comment by Pandora's box

Wed, 30 May 2007 14:22:57 EDT

Pandora's box(a poem) Here I am sitting in a strip club Having several beers Dancers taking their clothes off To wild, drunken cheers Strutting on stage is Pandora She is beautiful, a real fox She's dancing right in front of me And I'm in love with Pandora's box She asks if I'd like a friction dance I say sure! That sounds really great! She takes me to a more private place Where I enter into a pleasurable state She sits on my lap and starts her dirty grind It is at this point that I must confess Although I am having one hell of a good time I believe I'm about to make a terrible mess She kept grinding me and grinding me It was one incredibly amazing friction dance Now I must go because I am out of money And when I get home I must wash my underpants....