Will The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Ever End?

you ask:

Will The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Ever End?

who can look into the future? how many pundits predicted the fall of the soviet union or the re union of the two germanys?

*****

strong words from uri:

"In his own clear words: "The United States will not be able to achieve its goals in the Middle East unless the United States deals directly with the Arab-Israeli conflict."

His committee proposes the immediate start of negotiations between Israel and "President Mahmoud Abbas", in order to implement the two-state solution. The "sustainable negotiations" must address the "key final status issues of borders, settlements, Jerusalem, the right of return, and the end of conflict."

The use of the title "President" for Abu Mazen and, even more so, the use of the term "right of return" has alarmed the whole political class in Israel. Even in the Oslo agreement, the section dealing with the "final status" issues mentions only "refugees". Baker, as is his wont, called the spade a spade."

will the elected lame duck president listen or continue to be held hostage by the neoconzix pack led by the real prez?

Temporal,

Who is this "uri" you quote from?

Liam,

I told you that this "cease-fire" wouldn't last...

what government does israel have?

Questions, questions, but no answers.

Taylor, what do you mean by "what government does Israel have?"

ruvy:

:)

that would be avnery

Temporal;

I've been saving this little goody just for this occasion. Enjoy

Reuven

This came from Aryeh Zelasko, a writer from Israel

Considering the amount of intermarriage and whatnot in Germany at the time, I can only wonder if he is even Jewish. I strongly suspect that many of our most vociferous anti-Semitic "Jews" would not stand up very well to a investigation of their genealogy.

From Steven Plaut's blog-site:

The Nazi Roots of Uri Avnery

Alon Dahan is a graduate student at the Hebrew University in "Jewish Thought" (not to be confused with a B-film actor in Israel with the same name). He also may well be the very best columnist in the Hebrew media. His features appear on the web site of Maariv, Israel's second daily, regularly. While he writes on a number of subjects, he specializes in exposing the anti-Semitic foundations of Israel's radical Left. Unfortunately his articles are not available in English as far as I know.

What may well be his very best piece yet came out Dec 13, 06 at http://www.nfc.co.il/Archive/003-D-19383-00.html?tag=11-16-47

I am trying to find someone to translate the entire piece but let me give you a synopsis here:

Against the outrage everyone is feeling about the Iranian Holocaust Denial and the growth of neo-nazism around the world, Dahan writes, one must be aware of the nazi roots of Post-Zionism and Israeli leftist anti-Semitism. Such roots go back as far as the 1940s, and then "Canaanite" movement in Israel in the 1950s. The Canaanite movement was a movement of "Post-Judaism" that argued that the new emerging "Israeli" would be a new nationality altogether, composed of ex-Jews and ex-Arabs, with no ties to the Jewish Diaspora, practicing no religion, Hebrew-speaking gentiles of pure Semitic "blood". The movement was popular in the 50s among many clueless Israeli "intellectuals." It never managed to recruit any Arab members.

The leading survivor of the early "Canaanite" movement today is Uri Avnery, a fanatic anti-Zionist and anti-Semite, whose Bash-Israel pro-Hamas articles appear everywhere one can find anti-Semitism, on the Right and the Left. Avnery is a regular on the neo-Stalinist pro-terror Counterpunch web magazine.

What is not well known is that:
1. Uri Avnery's original name was Helmut Osterman (Dahan at first writes Joseph Osterman but then corrects himself in the talkbacks), born in Germany, and among the two leading figures in the "Canaanites"; and
2. Avnery/Osterman was an admirer of Nazism.

In 1941, Avnery wrote a pro-Nazi article in the Paris journal "Shem", whose contents were later revealed by the Hebrew University Orientalist Prof. Yehoshua Porat in his book "Shelach V'At B'yado", page 182. Herr Avnery was also fond of using the concept of "Hebrew Blood" in a racial sense, in the same way as Hitler spoke of German Aryan Blood. In those days he was anti-Marxist, although today has no problem with associating himself with Stalinists. Back then he repeatedly expressed admiration for the great job Hitler was doing in remolding and renewing the German nation. Avnery was an open admirer of Nazi propagandist Alfred Rosenberg, adopted the latter's rhetoric, and repeatedly declared that he saw himself as the Hebrew Alfred Rosenberg (which, in a sense, he is). Avnery ran a tiny "journal" called the Struggle, an obvious imitation of the name "Mein Kampf". He ran his own one-man party, whose official salute was a Nazi raised hand.

Avnery in those days advocated creation of a Semitic "race" that would lead the Middle East to greatness when combined with a new Hebraic non-Jewish culture. As such, he advocated the end of the Jewish people as a national entity and expansion of the new race into its "Semitic Lebensraum" (yes, he used that Nazi concept!). He later wrote of his dream for a new and better Hitler emerging, an anti-Nazi Hitler who will lead the struggle for peace and will promote the Palestinian cause (well, at least he got THAT part right!).

Avnery then left for Israel/Palestine. In the 60s he ran a semi-pornographic magazine called "Haolam Hazeh," as the Israeli Larry Flynt. The magazine also did some scandal mongering. Avnery later ran for parliament and got elected by a sort of protest vote, the same sorts of people who otherwise might vote for Homer Simpson or Cher.

[In the 1960s Avnery wrote "Israel without Zionists", the Bible of Israeli self-hating leftism. Ever since, he has been the Reverend Moon of Israel's far-leftist "Post-Zionists" and he runs the small and violently anti-Israel "Gush Shalom" organization. He is friends with Mikey Lerner and appears in Tikkun. When his own mother died, she disinherited him and declared in her will that her son is a traitor.]

Dahan then goes on and discusses how Avnerism has become entrenched among the Hate-Israel far Leftists in Israeli academia, among the "New Historians." Among those he specifically names are Ilan Pappe (Haifa U), Moshe Zimmerman (Hebrew U, and Uri Ram (Ben Gurion U). He cites Prof. Shlomo Aharonson in describing the anti-Semitic ideological foundations of these pseudo-scholars and their need to trivialize and erase all memory of the Holocaust. He describes Ilan Pappe as a Jewish Holocaust Denier (his words), as are, by implication, all those with similar points of view.

The full article is far more detailed. As I say, if I can obtain an English translation, I will post it.

thank you ruvy:)

here is more on uri.......enjoy....

Biographical Note:

Uri Avnery created a world sensation when he crossed the lines during the battle of Beirut and met Yassir Arafat on July 3, 1982 -- the first time the Palestinian leader ever met with an Israeli. Several Israeli cabinet ministers called for Avnery's indictment for high treason, while peace activists hailed the meeting as a historical breakthrough. It was the culmination of an effort started by Avnery many years earlier.

Avnery was born as Helmut Ostermann on September 10, 1923, in Beckum, Westphalia. His father, member of an old-established well-to-do German Jewish family, was a private banker in Beckum, and later on a financial expert in Hannover. As a veteran Zionist, he took his family to Palestine immediately upon Hitler's rise to power (1933). In Palestine, he quickly lost the considerable capital he had brought with him, and had to do hard manual work, as did his wife.

Avnery (he changed his first and second name on reaching the age of 18, adopting a Hebrew name, as was usual at that time) attended elementary school first in Nahalal, the famous moshav (communal village), and later on in Tel-Aviv. Because of his family's extreme poverty at that time, he left school after the seventh grade, at the age of 14, and earned his living at many jobs, until he turned to journalism as his profession in 1947.

In 1938, just before turning 15, he joined the Irgun underground (Irgun Tzwai Leumi - National Military Organization), in order to take part in the fight against the British colonial regime. He served for three years, but left the Irgun in protest against its anti-Arab and reactionary social attitudes and terrorist methods. Later he explained his attitude in a booklet entitled "Terrorism, the infantile disease of the Hebrew revolution" (1945). His only brother, Werner, a commando soldier in the British army, was killed in the Ethiopia campaign.

After some years of sporadic political activity, Avnery founded in 1946 the Eretz Yisrael Hatz'ira ("Young Palestine") movement, also known as the "Bama'avak (Struggle) group" by the name of its publication, which he edited. This group created an unprecedented uproar because of its contention that the Jewish community in Palestine constitutes a "new Hebrew nation" within the Jewish people, and that this nation is a part of Asia and the natural ally of the Arab nation.

In September 1947, on the eve of the Israeli-Palestinian war, Avnery published a booklet entitled "War or Peace in the Semitic Region", which called for a radically new approach: An alliance of the Hebrew and Arab national movements in order to liberate the common "Semitic Region" (a term coined by Avnery in order to avoid the colonialist term Middle East) from imperialism and colonialism, and create a Semitic community and common market, as a part of the emerging third world. Excerpts of the booklet were sent to the media throughout the Arab world and mentioned in some Arab newspapers, just before the start of the war.

At the outbreak of the war, Avnery joined the army (Giv�ati brigade) and later volunteered for "Samson's Foxes", a commando unit on the Egyptian front which soon became legendary. He was severely wounded during the last days of the fighting, and after several months of convalescence was discharged in the summer of 1949 with the rank of squad leader.

Throughout the war, Avnery reported on his experiences as a combat soldier who took part in nearly all the major battles on the Jerusalem and southern fronts. These reports, which appeared in the Ha'aretz evening paper, were published after the war as a book, "Bisdoth Pleshet 1948" ("In the Fields of the Philistines, 1948"), which became overnight the biggest bestseller of that time, and is still generally recognized as the outstanding book of that war, in the tradition of Erich Maria Remarque's "All Quiet on the Western Front". Ten editions were published in quick succession and several more later on. (A new edition was published in April 1998, on the eve of Israel�s 50th anniversary.) However, when he wrote a follow-up, "The Other Side of the Coin", which described the dark side of the war, including atrocities and the expulsion of the Palestinians, it was boycotted.

In 1949, the editor of Ha'aretz invited Avnery to join his staff as a writer of editorials. After one year Avnery quit, protesting that he was not allowed to express his opinions, especially concerning tmass expropriation of Arab lands by the Ben-Gurion government. Thereupon, in April 1950, he bought a moribund family magazine and turned it into a unique Israeli institution.

Haolam Hazeh was a combination of a mass-circulation newsmagazine, similar in style to Time Magazine and Der Spiegel, and a mouthpiece of aggressive political opposition to the establishment, with exposes of political and economic corruption and proposals for a radically different national policy. It also created a new Hebrew style, now adopted by all Israeli media, and served as a school for most of the young men and women who became outstanding Israeli journalists.

Haolam Hazeh was based on a seemingly impossible contradiction: a mass-circulation paper attacking the most sacred beliefs and myths of the masses. It overcame this problem by unorthodox journalistic methods, and had a major influence on the shaping of the minds of two generations of young Israelis.

For forty years, Haolam Hazeh attracted an unusually large dose of both admiration and hatred, because of its untiring opposition to the official "concensus" on nearly all issues. At the base of the controversy was Avnery's unflinching opposition to the nationalistic, theocratic 'Jewish state" created by Ben-Gurion, and his advocacy of a modern, liberal state, belonging to all its citizens, irrespective of ethnic, national or religious roots. Haolam Hazeh has fought for the separation between state and religion, human rights, the right of the Arab minority, equality between Jews of European and oriental descent, the adoption of a written constitution (still missing), women�s rights, civil rights and much more. It was the first to uncover the facts of the infamous Lavon Affair (concerning an Israeli sabotage action in Egypt), as well as scores of corruption affairs. Since the early 1950's, it has resolutely advocated the creation of a Palestinian state alongside Israel and support for the Arab struggles for independence (Egypt, Algeria, Iraq etc.)

Enemies of Avnery (such as Aharon Amir, a prominent right-wing ideologue) accused Avnery of "poisoning" two generations of Israeli youth, turning them away from the national myths towards an ideology of "integration in the Semitic Region". Indeed, perhaps the most important battle won by Avnery was the gradual change in Israeli national consciousness from a total negation of the very existence of a Palestinian people (Golda Meir: "There is no such thing as a Palestinian people!") towards the general recognition which made the Oslo agreement possible. This was a weekly effort that took some 40 years.

The chief of the secret service in the 50s, Issar Har'el, later testified that the Ben-Gurion establishment considered Avnery and Haolam Hazeh as "Public Enemy Number 1". This may explain why attacks on Haolam Hazeh were often violent. Its editorial offices and printing facilities were bombed several times and some employees wounded; Avnery was ambushed and both his hands broken after he criticized the infamous Kibieh massacre (1953). In 1975, he was the victim of an assassination attempt by a person officially declared nad. Avnery escaped with severe knife wounds. Menachem Begin disclosed in 1977 that the chief of the secret service had asked in the late 50's for his support for putting Avnery in administrative detention (without trial) under emergency regulations (Begin refused). The offices of Haolam Hazeh and its invaluable archives were completely destroyed by arson in 1972. Throughout this time, all branches of the government and army maintained a total economic boycott against the paper.

The most resolute attempt to silence Avnery was made in 1965, when the government enacted a special press law, admittedly aimed mainly against "that certain magazine" (as Haolam Hazeh was always called by Ben-Gurion, who would not utter its name.) This provided the final push for starting an operation which has been in Avnery's mind for a long time: the creation of a new political party to fight for the principles advocated by Haolam Hazeh: separation of state and religion; equality for the Arab minority, oriental Jews and women; social justice; support for the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza (at that time not yet under Israeli occupation) and an Israeli-Arab alliance throughout the whole region.

The new party (which adopted the name of the magazine and called itself "Haolam Hazeh - New Force Movement") came into being on the eve of the 1965 elections as a citizens' volunteer movement. It astounded the establishment by winning a seat in the Knesset, at that time an unprecedented feat for a completely new party. In the 1969 elections it gained two seats.

During his first eight years in the Knesset, even his enemies described Avnery as one of Israel's foremost parliamentarians. He had a lasting impact on the Knesset, making more than a thousand speeches in the Knesset plenum. Many of the hundreds of his initiatives in all fields of law and administration are still being debated in the Knesset today. He was probably most popular as an abrasive critic of the establishment, causing Golda Meir to declare from the Knesset rostrum: "I am ready to mount the barricades in order to get Avnery out of the Knesset!" A book about his activities in the 120-member Knesset ("1 against 119") appeared in 1969.

On the fifth day of the Six-Day War, Avnery addressed an open letter to the Prime Minister, Levi Eshkol, calling upon him to make a dramatic gesture and offer the Palestinian people the opportunity to create an independent State of Palestine on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, which had just been occupied by the Israeli Army. This idea, which has been put forward by Avnery since 1948, and which he outlined in a detailed plan in 1957, became his central theme since 1967 and the subject of hundreds of his speeches and initiatives in the Knesset, where he was for years the lone voice of this solution.

To further this idea, he wrote in 1967 a book analyzing the conflict. It was published in 1968 (in English as "Israel without Zionists" and in Hebrew as "The Seventh Day War") and translated into many languages. His proposal for a "two-state solution" was, in 1970, attacked by a book published in Beirut by the PLO in Arabic and French under the title "Uri Avnery and Neo-Zionism".

However, in 1974, with the beginning of the change in the PLO line, Avnery established contact with senior PLO officials. At the beginnig these contacts were at secret, but Avnery reported on them to the then Prime Minister, Yitzhak Rabin. For Arafat, the contacts were conducted by the PLO representative in London, Sa'id Hamami, who was murdered because of this in 1978 by Palestinian extremists. In the summer of 1975 Avnery called for the creation of an Israeli Council for Israeli-Palestinian Peace, which was founded officially in December of that year and took over the still-secret dialogue, by this time conducted for the PLO by Issam Sartawi. The fascinating story of this dialogue, with its many ups and downs, forms the subject of Avnery's book "My Friend, the Enemy", which was also translated into several languages.

The contacts assumed a new dimension in July 1982, when Avnery crossed the lines at the height of the battle of Beirut and publicly met the leader of the "enemy", Yassir Arafat, with whom he has met since then many times.
Avnery & Arafat in Beirut
avnery with Arafat in Beirut - July 1982
during the siege of Beirut

In 1977, Avnery's party joined with several other peace groups in forming a new party, "Shelli", which won two seats in the elections of that year. Avnery returned to the Knesset in 1979, but gave up his seat in 1981, to make place for an Arab colleague. He served as chairman of the party executive, and upon its split became chairman of the newly formed Jewish-Arab "Progressive List for Peace", which won two seats in 1984. However, he did not run for the Knesset, and in 1988 left party politics for good. Because of mounting financial difficulties he had to give up Haolam Hazeh, after being its publisher and editor-in-chief for exactly 40 years. Soon after the magazine folded.

In 1992, Avnery called for the eof Yitzhak Rabin, and later supported the Oslo agreement. Soon after, frustrated with many of the government's acts and omissions in moving towards peace, he called for the creation of a strong extra-parliamentary citizens' movement to push the government in the right direction. After the expulsion of 415 Palestinians in the end of 1992, Avnery, together with Jewish and Arab Israelis, put up a protest tent opposite the Prime Minister's office, in which they lived for 45 days and nights, during some of which Jerusalem was covered by snow. This experience led to the creation of Gush Shalom, the Peace Bloc, which has become since then the leading (and often sole) voice in Israel calling for the creation of the State of Palestine in all the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the release of all Palestinian prisoners, the dismantling of all settlements and the recognition of Jerusalem as the joint capital of both states. Since its creation, the Gush has organized hundreds of demonstrations, mostly together with Palestinian activists, and numerous other political actions, including an ongoing boycott of the products of the settlements and the manifesto "Our Jerusalem", signed by 750 prominent Israelis and the Palestinian leadership. This manifesto, written by Avnery, calls for the recognition of Jerusalem as the joint capital of the two states: Israel and Palestine.

On the Day of return to Gaza
july 1 1994
Arafat's first day in Gaza
a joint press conference with Avnery.

Rachel Avnery plays a major part in organizing Gush Shalom actions. The Gush receives no money from foreign funds (except small peace groups in Europe) and has no salaried employees whatsoever. All its actions are conducted, and mostly paid for, by volunteers.

In May 1995, on the first day of his return to Gaza, Arafat publicly embraced Avnery, put him next to him on the tribune and called him "my friend". The city of Osnabrueck has awarded Avnery the Erich Maria Remarque Peace Price for 1995. At the awarding ceremony, both the Israeli and Palestinian ambassadors were present. Since then, he was awarded the Aachen Peace Prize (Germany), the Kreisky Price for Human Rights (Austria) and the Lower Saxony State Prize (Germany) as outstanding publicist (awarded personally by Gerhard Schroeder.)

In February 1999, after the kidnapping of the Kurdish leader Abdullah Ocalan, Avnery took part in a spontaneous demonstration in front of the Turkish Embassy in Tel-Aviv. As a result, he was asked by Kurdish circles in Europe to join a committee of international personalities for Kurdistan. He addressed a mass-meeting of 150,000 Kurds in Bonn.

On May 4, 1999, the day the Oslo interim period came to an end, a manifesto drafted by Avnery and signed by 500 Israeli personalities was published as a full-page ad in Ha�aretz. It expressed "support for the right of the Palestinian nation to proclaim the State of Palestine" in "all" territories of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, with Jerusalem as joint capital of both Israel and Palestine.

In April 1997, while leading a demonstration against the construction of a new settlement on Jebl Abu-Ghneim (Har Homa"), Avnery fainted. Two physicians, one Palestinian and one Israeli, who were taking part in the demonstration, attended to him on the spot, and two ambulances, a Palestinian and an Israeli, successively rushed him to hospital, where a massive intestinal bleeding was diagnosed in time to save his life. An operation was conducted near the spot where he was wounded in 1948, causing him to joke that he was both "wounded in war and wounded for peace."

In 1999 Avnery called for the election of Ehud Barak, but was soon disappointed by the inability or unwillingness of Barak to move decisively towards peace and by his continued settlement activity. Since most other peace movements support the government unconditionally, Gush Shalom has remained nearly alone in the field criticizing the Barak government and organizing joint Israeli-Palestinian demonstrations against settlements, house demolitions and land confiscation. During the first year of the Barak government, which includes so-called peace parties, Gush Shalom has organized a dozen demonstrations against these policies, generally together with Palestinian organizations. It has also organized a petition by 650 prominent Israelis in support of a Palestinian state in all the territories of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip, and published a statement on the refugee problem, calling for a recognition of the Right of Return and a pragmatic approach to its realization.

Avnery is a major thinker, poliical commentrator and activist, so why do his "Nazi roots" mean anything? Except of course as a smear tactic against anyone who dares critique Israel.

Neither of the little notes "prove" anything except a great deal of insinuation. So he made aliyeh in 1933 - why is that a crime? But you read the above and it seems it was done maliciously and knowingly. Its "swift-boating" of the worst sort!

While we are at this game - any "biographical" gems on Shimon Tzabar or Gilad Atzmon? Or Amira Haas? All critics of Israel, and all Israelis themselves.

A "historical" nugget: During the WW2, Germany maintained a diplomatic mission in then Palestine and continued to offer services of registering births, deaths, passports etc for anyone of "German origin."

Guess what? All through the war, the Jewish "pioneers" fighting for the state of Israel, continued to duly registering their children with the mission, despite information on the Holocaust. The practice continued even AFTER the extent and reality of the Holocaust became apparent after the war.

Their reason: they didn't want to lose the right to a GERMAN citizenship after the war!

My point is: big deal! Anyone who criticizes Israel is quickly determined to be anti-Semite. There is great deal of effort now in equating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. All of it sounds like neo-con smear tactics intended to silence opposition. Am surprised Dershowitz - complete with shoddy research - hasn't been quoted here yet.

Anamika,

You seem to have trouble with Plaut's post. I have trouble with Plaut for entirely unrelated reasons but it is useful to understand what this traitor Avneri thinks precisely because of the influence he has.

I read his book Israel Without Zionism about 33 years ago. At the time, he was still publishing Ha'Olam Hazeh, which, unfortunately, has become the model for Hebrew journalism.

Get this straight, Anamika. Avneri is not a traitor because he opposes the Zionist régime. He is not a traitor because he wants peace with the Arabs. He is not a traitor because he criticizes Israeli policy. He is a traitor because he wants to divorce Judaism from the people of Israel, and from its connection to the land of Israel. He is the apotheosis of the secular Jew who thinks he can walk away from the Covenant with G-d he has and live.

That is what this means "Avnery in those days advocated creation of a Semitic 'race' that would lead the Middle East to greatness when combined with a new Hebraic non-Jewish culture. As such, he advocated the end of the Jewish people as a national entity and expansion of the new race into its 'Semitic Lebensraum' (yes, he used that Nazi concept!)...."

The key point in his ideas was and still is the divorcing of the Jewish people from its tribal heritage, from its Covenant with G-d and leading it to become a new "Canaanite" people in the Middle East.

Shim'on Peres steals this concept for his New Middle East. It is at the root of the Oslo "Peace" Plan, and is the unspoken bedrock upon which the secular "left" in Israel stands. It is why he must stand trial for treason, along with Ehud Olmert, Ehud Barak, Shim'on Peres, Aharon Barak, and a whole slew of 'leftists" in Israel.

This has little to do with Nazis per se, and has everything to do with erasing Judaism - a central goal of Nazis. Avnery's idea then, and yet now, is to turn Jews into Middle Eastern "Aryans", working with Arab Middle Eastern "Aryans, while turning his back on the faith of his ancestors.

It is always helpful to understand one's enemies, and as little as I like Plaut, I'll still take the knowledge he has to offer, remembering always the little swastika hiding behind the "Gush Shalom".

Ruvy: "It is why he must stand trial for treason, along with Ehud Olmert, Ehud Barak, Shim'on Peres, Aharon Barak, and a whole slew of 'leftists" in Israel." So, basically anyone who seeks to make concessions to finally achieve peace with the PAlestinians is a leftist and should be tried, if not shot at dawn for treason. Looks like my article is asking the right question, eh Ruvy?

Ruvy I am not sure whether you can even see the level of fanaticism your post contains. "Traitor" Avneri? Why a "traitor"? Because he doesn't agree with you? Because he thinks that religion and nation are separate? Because he chooses to articulate what is rational?

Given your levels of venom, guess those amongst the Arabs who say that Israel doesn't want peace with honour are right.

From what you have written, the only way you will accept - and that is implicit in your statement above - is complete and absolute cleansing of non-Jews from the land you deem as yours according to the Covenant?

May I also point out then that some of the land granted to the Jews by the Covenant now forms parts of places like Jordan, Syria, Lebanon. I guess eventually people like you will argue that "there are no Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, etc" (just as Golda said there "weren't any Palestinians") and figure out ways to take over their lands as well?

I respect your piety - as I would of anyone who truly believed in their faith. But fanaticism is hard to palate! Of any kind and brand...

Avneri is not a traitor because he opposes the Zionist régime. He is not a traitor because he wants peace with the Arabs. He is not a traitor because he criticizes Israeli policy. He is a traitor because he wants to divorce Judaism from the people of Israel, and from its connection to the land of Israel. He is the apotheosis of the secular Jew who thinks he can walk away from the Covenant with G-d he has and live.

The issue is not peace; the issue is not land; the issue is not loyalty to a regime that history will soon sweep into the dustbin as it has served its purpose.

The issue is the destiny of the Jewish people. Avneri and all the trash who think like him would have us assimilate into the rest of the world, and be forgotten when G-d judges it. The anti-Semitism in the nations over the millennia, even among Indians who spat "Saturday oil-men" in contempt, has been designed to teach us Jews a basic truth - that we are a nation apart, not to be counted with the rest of mankind.

Some of us have learnt this lesson. Avneri and his ilk have not. They will pay the penalty for it - either at our hands of justice, or at the hands of anti-Semites who will slaughter them like they have slaughtered Jews over the millennia.

It is just a matter of time.

ruvy:

sometimes i wonder how many gods really are there?

let us see -- there is my god who smiles and is busy elsewhere in the universe so we can kill and mime each other...or love and live peacefully

then there is your god

then there is a christian god

then there is sunni god that tells them to kill shias

then there is a shia god that tells them to kill sunnis

that is five so far

then there is dubya's god who tells him to bring demo-crazy to them eyeraakis (surely the born-again's gods must be different)

then there is osama's gods that tells him to work with cia?

seven

and then there are other gods...

so my friend from jerusalem

whose god are we to believe in?

shalom, peace, salam!

Ruvy, you talk of "The anti-Semitism in the nations over the millennia, even among Indians who spat "Saturday oil-men" in contempt,"

Would this be the same Indians who NEVER once had a "pogrom" against the Jews? Or would this be the same Indians who sheltered the Jews, never asked them to change their religion, or their beliefs, for over two and a half millenia? (Read your history - the first Jews came to India with the destruction of the first temple!). Or would this be the Indians who still care for the oldest continuous synagogue in Cochin dating back to 800 years? Or are these the same Indians who in 2001 were considering electing a Jewish general of the Indian army (and former governor of various states) as their President?

I am willing to understand the levels of paranoia that Western Jews have, but at some point, you need to take a step back and gain some real perspective.

Then you continue, "has been designed to teach us Jews a basic truth - that we are a nation apart, not to be counted with the rest of mankind."

That sounds like racism to me. That is what Hitler said - "Aryans" were a race apart and not to be counted with the "rest of mankind" - except he used the term untermenschen and had the military strength to start killing off those "rest of mankind."

Should we expect the same from the Jews? The day they have the strength (as is the case already in Palestine), they will start killing of the rest of us?

After all, the Torah holds enough examples of Jews "ethnically cleansing" everyone else that their "god" doesn't consider good enough.

So I agree with temporal - WHICH god are we talking about?

Ruvy:
You write:
The anti-Semitism in the nations over the millennia, even among Indians who spat "Saturday oil-men" in contempt,

I am trying to understand this topic. Do you know the cases or instances or any references which suggest that "Saturday oil-men" were looked down upon in contempt?

I have the following references which suggests the contrary:
# "India is perhaps one of the only country in the world where there has never been any anti-Semitic sentiments expressed by the local communities. Jews continue to live and prosper in India, though with a population of only 6,000."

Here are two articles on Satuday Oil-men and neither of them suggest any persecution, discrimination, or ill-treatment towards Jews in India.
Jewish Heritage India

Satuday's Oil-men

Can you enlighten us on why you believe Jews were seen in contempt in India?

Judaism is where the Moslems got their ideas of how to fight a war - but the idea of world conquest is theirs. We do not need to conquer any countries outside of Israel. No, the only Jewish armies that will appear in India will be armies of tourists

Our prophetic works indicate that other nations will try to conquer us and be judged in the process. And current events appear to substantiate the truth of prophecy in too many ways.

follow up on #13 for ruvy:

so whose god?

Temporal,

That is a question for you to ponder...

Ruvy:

let us visit the sequence one last timeJ

in #12 you wrote: The issue is the destiny of the Jewish people. Avneri and all the trash who think like him would have us assimilate into the rest of the world, and be forgotten when G-d judges it. The anti-Semitism in the nations over the millennia, even among Indians who spat "Saturday oil-men" in contempt, has been designed to teach us Jews a basic truth - that we are a nation apart, not to be counted with the rest of mankind. (emphasis are mine)

in #13 I wrote: whose god are we to believe in?

after a reminder you wrote: Temporal, That is a question for you to ponder...


it is your prerogative to write whatever you wish to express

and it is also your prerogative to deflect and not answer when questioned on what you write

"Our prophetic works indicate that other nations will try to conquer us and be judged in the process. And current events appear to substantiate the truth of prophecy in too many ways..."

Lets see: Deir Yassin? Sabra and Shatila? Jenin? Gaza?

Is that why according to Israeli press, the Israeli Defense Forces are studying the transportation, propaganda and killing methods of the Nazis? To learn how to conduct genocide properly? With the permission from god?

As a non-Jew, I think its only fair I find out who is planning to exterminate me, so, Ruvy, once again, are you promoting genocide of the non-Jews, just as the Torah orders?

Anamika,

Genocide? Deir Yassin, Sabra and Shatila? Jenin? Gaza?

I'm sorry, if you exaggerate the numbers, and inflate it all, you get to 10,000 at the outside. That's with overblown hysterical lies all accepted and multiplied once or twice over. A genocide comparable to what we suffered at the hands of the Nazis of the Arabs who claim descent from the 600,000 who fled here in 1948 would come to 1,000,000 or 1.5 million people, depending on whose figures you accept for population.

If you can get 10,000 to equal 1 million, I'll hire you as my accountant. I need someone badly to multiply the money in my bank account by about 1,000 times.

If you have that magic touch, Anamika, you have the job...

The main task the IDF is being given these days is destroying the Jewish towns and villages in Judea and Samaria. So, it is no surprise that they are studying the transport, propaganda and killing methods of the Nazis. They will have to fight Jews who will fight back.

From the Scotsman, July 14, 1948 (by line of Patrick O'Donovan): "In Haifa they have opened a ghetto for the Arabs. Four of the meaner streets have been wired off and, just like the Jews in Medieval Cracow, Christian and Muslim Arabs must sleep and live here under guard...it would be hard to visualise a more subdued and frightened population than the Arabs left in Israel..."

October 25, 1948, The Times reporting in Beersheba: "The Arab villages are deserted, their miserable houses have been looted, and many are burnt."

UN figures place the naqba figures at 750,000 Palestinians rendered homeless and made refugees. Their descendents are denied the right to return today, even though Jews claim aliyeh despite having no link to the land for 2000 years.

And the world has had a clear look at Israeli "accounting" techniques. Shall I remind you of the Baruch Goldstein massacre where the "total" Palestinian deaths were placed at 29? Coolly EXCLUDED from that figure was of the 25 Palestinians killed by the IDF firing supposedly to "keep peace"?

Or the two major inquests this year in Britain that revealed that two UK journalists shot by the IDF while recording the destruction of a Palestinian home were killed DELIBERATELY. Yet Israeli government refused to investigate, prevaricated, destroyed evidence AND as a final insult to the families, tried to BRIBE them to drop the investigations.

And spare us the propaganda about the "settlers"! Your prime ministers "withdraw" illegal settlements in Gaza (yes, they are illegal under international law, the Oslo accords, and just about EVERY agreement Israel has signed) while clearing land for new ones in the West Bank. Gaza is a grand prison where state-of-the-art technology can be deployed and tested by the IDF. These include advanced weapons using sound technology that cause sleep deprivation in the population AND spontaneous miscarriages amongst pregnant women (info to be found on UN website as well as various human rights, weapons watch sites!).

But lets look at the numbers: 250,000 Israeli settlers currently live in 140 settlements built on illegally seized Palestinian land in the West Bank, with most of them having moved there in the last ten years (as in during and POST-OSLO accords that Israel blames the Palestinians for breaking when the Israelis never intended to allow the Palestinians any peace or land in the first place).

The 5,000 Israeli settlers who were evacuated in a highly-publicized evacuation from three settlements in the Gaza Strip in August 2005 were mainly moved to settlements in the West Bank.

This was when people like you made facile comparisons to the Holocaust, callously sullying the memory of the people who were truly evicted, hounded and killed by the Nazis. THEY didn't nice announcements or replacement homes, or polite IDF soldiers with tears in their eyes! So get over the propaganda already.

But some of the Israeli families who moved from Gaza have been living inside Israel, and a number of them have pressured the Israeli government to allow for the construction of a NEW settlement in the Jordan Valley, in the eastern part of the West Bank. The settlement has already been constructed, and today received approval from the Israeli government -- despite a promise that the Israeli government made to the U.S. to halt construction of new settlements in the West Bank.

Palestinians living in the Jordan Valley have faced increasing pressure during the settlement's construction over the last several months, including home demolitions, denial of permits, restrictions of travel, destruction of farmlands, and Israeli invasions into their villages and towns.

And I guess now a "genocide" is specially for the Jews, is it? Is that why the "Holocaust" day never mentions the OTHER six million who died in the camps? Or allows the gypsies to participate in the ceremonies even though the specific "racial"/ethnic wording used for killing them is EXACTLY the same in all Nazi documents. Because it would take the spotlight from the "world's greatest suffering" away?

Is that why Israel refuses to recognize the Turkish genocide of the Armenians? Because it will "lessen" its grip on Western conscience that it uses for blackmail?

Or is that why Israel uses South African apartheid consultants to plan out and improve the Palestinian "bantustans" (read the reports from UNHCR and various media)?

IDF is doing a good job of using its soldiers as oppressors. Just read "The Checkpoint Syndrome" - its in Hebrew and it ISN'T written by the "sell out Orthodox" Jews you have such contempt for. Its a diary by an IDF soldier.

There isn't much difference between you and the Taliban fanatics, Ruvy. Both of you use god to justify the suffering you inflict on other human beings. And both of you feel terrifically self-righteous about it.

For those who may be interested, a group of Israeli dissidents run this website. Many of them are no longer welcome in Israel, even though in some cases, they fought for its formation but were horrified at the way their "dream" has shaped up. It has photographs, links and information on the situation in Palestine today:
www.israelimperialnews.org

Btw, Ruvy, whose god?

ana:

one more time

act

(do not react)

:)

(there is already an article in #22)

I know, temporal. But this is fun - one mind at a time. ;-)