Dr. Niqab - Comedy or Tragedy?

tbs:

what a surprise:)

this sums up beautifully An Arab proverb eloquently puts it as: "so sad, that it becomes funny."

some years back a doc friend told me about this pregnant woman ... my friend thought she was mute ..her husband answered every question for her ... till she asked her to come in the examination room....there....without her husband she became a chatter box

khair

the husband insisted that when the baby was due there was to be no 'man' around in the hospital...my friend told him it was not possible...this is canada...the husband entered a midwifery course...sheesh!...i should find out from her who delivered the baby ...

some of these guys really stretch both the religious injunctions and imagination...pity!

Very funny piece - and I think your satire gives the lie to the oft-maintained view that there is no humour, satire or dissent in the Muslim world. A Bangladeshi friend of mine refers to the niqab - even the burka - as umbrella fabric, and says men should be forced to wear it for the day. Then we too could glide noiselessly around.

What an extraordinary article. Wow. Obviously this is not merely for the sake of men. She too must choose this to some degree. At some point when the doctor decided to submit she did so entirely. So much I do not understand. So much!

Recently, there was as show on NDTV hosted by Bhurka Dutt (India). A Muslim lady, who happens to be a doctor, was on the show, attired in complete niqab, where one could only see her eyes and hands. She completely justified wearing the niqab. While few other Muslim women on the show did not think Niqab was necessary, this doctor insisted on wearing Niqab and described it as the 'modest' way of dressing as quoted in Koran. This doctor made it clear that she was not forced into one, but she choose to do it willingly.

For those who are not used to seeing people in niqab or any garb that covers one's face, its uncomfortable to talk to them or interact with them. Especially in professional environs where seeing the face turns out to be important, talking to a person in niqab turns out to be a difficult experience.

Wearing niqab is debated even by Islamic purists who have different interpretations on what is modest clothing. In fact, modesty is asked from men as well. Many Koran experts state that Koran does not describe how this 'modest' dress code should be.

May be, in those olden days, women had only one role to play, but things have changed a lot. Muslim women enter mainstream- Sania plays tennis, Shabana acts, Taslima writes. Some go on to become engineers, doctors and lawyers, and some, such as Khaleda and Hasina become leaders.

It is too much to ask of others to cooperate and understand niqab in such environments where looking at the other's face becomes necessary and important. If I am with a doctor, I would like to see his/her face, know who he/she is. Its like trying to know the name of a person you are dealing with. When you attach a name to a person, you get connected to that person. That connection in an interactive environment is important.

Imagine working with a fellow engineer in niqab whose face you have never seen. And imagine if there are many women in niqab in your company. It would be confusing, distracting and make the atmosphere quite uncomfortable. For those who have grown up seeing niqab-clad women, it may be easy to recognize and be familiarized, but for most others, like me, I would find it uncomfortable to deal with in a professional environment.

It is clear from the article that the author only felt that way because of her bigotry.
Her bigotry towards Black Niqab is no different to the bigotry in some western countries to black faces.
The author felt threatened by a lady wearing a Black Niqab who was trying to help her, many people in the west feel the same way about doctors with Black faces.

We can only destroy bigotry with knowledge; to do this we need more Niqab wearing doctors, teachers, judges and lawyers. Then people would become familiar with them and would lose their bigotry.
When people see a Niqab they should think about the wives of the prophet and the way they dressed. Not the articles written in Zionist News Papers attacking Islam and Muslims.

If you are bigoted against Muslim Doctors wearing Niqab, may be you should try speaking to a Muslim Doctor wearing a Niqab. Use an email if your bigotry is so strong that you are enable to speak or listen to her.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MuslimdoctorsUK/

more often than not, a human being communicates with another by expressions. the emotions that govern a persons actions are un"veil"ed by his/her eyes and body language often supersedes speech,the more conventional mode of communication. when a lady wears a burka, she deprieves herself of all the aforementioned modes of communication, which may indirectly lead to self imposed isolation.

Good excuse to avoid the shot in the bum. Wonder who would have been more offended if that had to be the case;)

Great article Yasmin. Majority of communication between humans in nonverbal. We "speak" and "read" eachother through a host of signals so understandably the full niqab prevents all this, adding to levels of anxiety especially when the situation involves a doctor.
What I was intrigued by was the use of the thick woolen gloves. Obviously this woman must be suffering as she goes about in Cairo. And there are guidelines about not diminishing mobility and sensitivity of one's hands when handling equipment and/or patients.
On the other hand, good for her that she lives in Cairo. If she lived in Britain, any complaint against her would be considered Islamophobic.
And for the person on comment 5, not ALL the information in the world would convince us that female genital mutilation is good. Similarly, not all the information in the world would convince us that discriminating based on race or religion or gender is good. And not all the exposure in the world would convince us that "caste" systems are good (before the self-professed liberals jump down my throat, may I remind you that "caste" and "untouchability" was removed even in Europe in the 18th century). Similarly, simply having more doctors, teachers, lawyers wearing the niqab in public would not convince us that it is okay.
The niqab prevents full communication between two human beings, just as helmets and other forms of masks do. We expect people to take off those (in case of helmets, there are legal requirements), so why shouldn't it apply to the niqab?
Yasmin, once again, great piece. As a bibliophile, you may want to look up the developing series of Inspector Khalifa novels by Paul Sussman. They are all set in Egypt with a wonderful hero - Khalifa.

temp :) thank you and I too would like to know who brough the baby to this world, the father or ...

Andrew, thank you, but there is a lot of comedy and humour in the Muslim world, sometimes the Muslims are their own worst enemies, but sometimes they are also the best at cracking jokes about themselves, you might want to look at:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1360431/posts

Carmine, thank you

Sujai, I agree with you, but there is also another thing, Allah gave us the senses to use, and the sense of touch is sometimes important for a doctor, to be able to assess something by the feel of it, that tends to get lost with layers and layers of gloves

Abdullah, I am against fanaticism of any kind, specially the unfounded variety, you are welcome to call it whatever you wish, the Quran clearly states that NOBODY should make something haram, which Allah has made halal, and the niqab makes a long list of things haram and impossible, I am sorry you feel this way, but the Quran also says that Allah has created the world and what is in it to be used, if you are interested I can point you to the Suras, so refusing to enjoy the Allah given gifts - for me - is like blasphemy and a severe lack of gratitude.

Sudhir, yes, body language does help.

Deepti, lol, next time I will try that lol

Anamika :) thank you and I will look up Paul Sussman. Inspector Khalifa makes me think they are of the mystery genre, which is always nice, thanks again

"Quran clearly states that NOBODY should make something haram, which Allah has made halal,"

Is Niqab guilty of this great sin, or are you and your cheerleaders guilty of it.
You are the one attacking it, and it is clearly Hallal as it was the dress of the wives of the Prophet.
Does your mockery include them? They were the ones who taught our greatest Scholars, with their Niqabs on. They were the ones who treated the wounded, wearing the veil. And Ayesha RA, she was the one who lead an Army from behind the veil.

The Doctor who treated you proves that Niqab makes being a Doctor possible. It makes working with nurses possible. It is your bigotry that tries to make it impossible, so it is your bigotry that is trying to make what Allah made Hallal Harram, not Niqab.

The main reason why I responded to you wasn't the fact that you don't like Niqab.
The word Kamar (Headscarf) and the order "to place it over" can be interpreted to mean covering the hair as well as the face. So Muslims have always debated whether Niqab is compulsory or just the good deed of following the dress of the Family of the Prophet.
The reason I responded to you is your fanatical disrespect and ungratefulness. Whether you hold it to be compulsory is not the issue. What is the issue is the doctor who treated you held it to be compulsory.
Is your mockery of Niqab any different from a Nazi's Mockery of Jewish beards, wigs and other things the hold dear, or Christians mocking the Sikh turbine and Protestants mockery of Nuns?
Is your disrespect of her dress and religious convictions any different for the disrespect shown to any other community?
If so how?
We have a word for that in the UK, its called bigotry. Bigoted attacks on Muslims and Islamic law is the only accepted Bigotry left in this country.
You have proven that it is as acceptable where you are too.
She has treated you, gave you a vaccine to make sure you don't become ill. You repay her kindness by mocking her, the way she dresses and her religious convictions.
You waited for your treatment, if she wasn't a doctor; you would have waited longer, as that would mean the number of doctors had decreased by one.
But your fanatical bigotry has blinded you to this fact.

You write about her, and mock her without having the courage to ask her about her dress. What does that make you?
We all make Mistakes. If you were an honourable person you would speak to her about what you have done, apologise if you are wrong and criticize her to her face if you still feel you are right.

Some how, I don't feel you have the courage to do that?
It's easy for cowards to insult from behind the veil. No recompense.
It's hard to do good deeds from behind the veil. No reward.

Which are you, and which is she?

Abdullah, so you have managed to see into my heart and see what is in it and found me guilty of bigotry, mockery, fanatical disrespect and ungratefulness and a whole host of other implicit things. now let's get down to it shall we?

The dress of the wives of the Prophet was different from that asked of the believing women, to set the wives of the prophet apart from the others.

Actually the doctor who gave me the shot proves that it is not possible to treat patient wearing double gloves, an injection is such an easy thing, any nurse can do it, but because her hand movement was restricted by the double gloves I ended up with a huge knot under the skin for 5 days, my arm hurt badly, and the injection itself at the time of the procedure hurt badly too, because she had no means of feeling anything, not how far the needle went in, nor anything else, so that proves she cannot do a job, as easy as giving a simple injection into the muscle even, not even in a vein, wearing this protection

furthermore, this so called niqab that you mention as obligatory, is nowhere stated as obligatory, if you so wish I can show you fatwas from honourable muftis such as ghazali saying clearly that niqb is not obligatory and not even mustahab, I can also show you hadiths where the prophet himself did not demand that from a woman, to cover her faces that is, but instead admonished the man who caused the trouble in the first place and then blamed her beauty for it, and reminded him of averting his eyes, so if the prophet was indeed sharing your opinion that since his wives were wearing it and that it was obligatory for believing women then he would have admonished the woman and asked her to cover her face

The reduction of religion from morals and general principles of upholding good to the length of a beard or the the length and position of a piece of cloth is what makes me sad, for it shows a great disrespect to Allah and his holy book and all what is in it. Religion is a way of life and not some stupid piece of material, be it black, white, shapeles or shaped.

I think if anybody owes anyone an apology it is her for causing me pain, for disregarding her oath, for disregarding the principles of her religion meaning compassion and doing good and rendering ma'rouf.

It is not the niqab I dont like, it is the transgression and fanaticism that I dont like and had you read my reply to you properly as it was written rather than what you decided to read into it, you would have realised that, and you would have also asked about the suras I mentioned, but I suppose you are not interested in that but only in furnishing more insults and hate. In any case, I will not discuss this issue with you any longer, simply because you dont seem to want to learn anything or even allow a different point of view and just argue in a disrespectful way, personal insults rather than arguments are not my cup of tea.

Salam

and the prize for the best rejoinder to a rejoinder goes to TBS, the whole stadium rises in applause and sheer wonder, the entire UN team leads the great and good out to present TBS with a personalised copy of an personally annotated copy of the dummy's guide to the niquab by dr....

:)

very nice :)

beady there is an ayah:

" And verily thou shall not accost poets and dreamers; give them a wide berth. For you know the eclectic waywardness in them. For the blessed We have more blessing here and in the hereafter. Please obey your conscience and the woman of your choice. Verily Allah knows best."

this and other surahs that dealt with selections and succession and other organisational matters were part of the revelations the hungry goat devoured- doc tbs could be more forthcoming about the incidents

t, i have it under very good advisement that it was not a goat but a camel who ate up the aforementioned leaf. This is the reason why God punished camels with bad breath and being cranky. The sura was about wimmin poets who make their brother's hair hurt.

beady:

...it was not a goat but a camel...

you may be right bud:)

but

i'd say the jury is out...you know both are four legged?...depending on who you read (or listen to) the offenders were four and two legged ones too

two or three years ago they discovered some boxes underneath the foundation of an old mosque in yemen...the papers were moist and stuck together...i think they are being separated, sorted and copied in germany for the scholars to work on it ( May Allah bless NGOs)

and yes, the camels kicked in (along with the goat)

here is another one:

"And when they say how can light be in the light, point to their hearts and say unto them O Believers: like darkness that can throb in the dark. Verily Allah knows most."

Again consult dr. tbs - this could be the camel

no no no, t, the last one is for a homar al alooj :), again, i would refer you to tbs for the details! :)

it may be late in cairo - tomorrow then?

Well done tbs. I am impressed by the intellectual rigour of the response. Abdullah Cohn, I must ask you for the EXACT sources for the idea that the niqab is required. The prophet asked men and women to dress modestly but yes, he admonished the man who did not respect the woman whose face was uncovered and then blamed her for it. I also want to point out another episode where a woman who went to the market alone and was admonished, asked the prophet if her act was acceptable. The Prophet SPECIFICALLY said that she had the right to go about her daily business and carry out the chores she needed EVEN IF SHE WERE NOT ACCOMPANIED BY A MAN.Sounds like the fanatics amongst Muslims when it comes to women are people like you, the Taliban and the Saudi regime, and NOT the Prophet or the ideas of the Sunnah.
Also can I request the exact source for your idea that Ayesha fought with a niqab? There is little historical evidence that she did so.
May I also point out that historically, in Persia and parts of Persian influenced Arabia, the niqab signified high social status and its use was prohibited by women of lower classes, slaves or prostitutes. So the use of niqab was an indication that the woman was "respected." On the other hand, there is NO evidence that the prophet's wife Khadija ever wore the veil. So where do we stand then?
Of course, given your ability to pull out historic and Koranic examples selectively, we can remind ourselves that the prophet married Fatima (daughter of Abu Bakr) when she was six and consummated the marriage when she was nine (and the prophet was 56), your views of what is acceptable for women may be quite different from others on this forum. But that is going off topic.
TBS - well done. Inspector Khalifa books are part mystery, part adventure, part Egyptian history and part contemporary middle East politics. I do believe you will enjoy them. :-)

moderators - oops - some weird blip so that message 18 that i posted turns up as null. May I claim that possibly offensive missive as my own.

No problem - have edited it:)

Anamika:

a small request

can you add a blank line between paragraphs in your posts? will make for easier reading

I thought there is no need of the Niqab in presence of other women .It is only in front of na - mahram men where there is chance of fitnah.
For a traditional view see Reliance of the Traveller of Imam Shafii translated in English by Sheikh Nuh Ha Meem Keller
http://www.mereislam.info/2006/11/face-veillets-be-honest.html

I find it rather sad and distressing that we are still arguing over whether or not a niquab or a hijab is religiously mandatory. Who gives a toss? Certainly not the wearers, specially those who wear it out of conviction. Its a matter of faith to them. So let them wear it. I believe in Saraswati and Ganesh. From an independent perspective, that sounds ludicrious, worshiping an elephant headed child who writes with one tusk and is considered to be good luck. But that's the difference between faith and reason. On the other hand, just like you have the right to wear a niquab or dye your hair green, you also have the right to be laughed at. Cuts both ways, I am afraid. And if there is one thing which gets people going are people who are unable to take a joke! one might do worse than to follow our gods, who are the biggest jokers in the world :)

cheers

bd

temp :)

two legged offenders are the ones that caused the most damage, sighs, and are still causing it.

One of the best features in Islam, for me at least, is that there is no intermediary between a person and Allah, his/her god. What I fail to understand though is the power of the Mullahs etc, who have assigned to themselves the position of mediating, explaining, elaborating, defining, judging and and ...

bd :)

homar al alooj ... now that's a name from the past. Credit goes to BB here

Anamika,
thank you again, and yes I agree with you, in fact I believe that the Prophet was perhaps the first feminist in Islam. Perhaps the Hawdaj on the camel's back, in which Aisha sat during the famous battle of the camel can be considered a giant niqab? (said tongue in cheek!) As for the niqab being a sign of respect, yes it was, and it was there about 1000 years BEFORE Islam in Persia. And to prove the point you made, there is this episode of Omar where he slapped a slave girl across the face, for covering her hair (not even niqab, only hijab!!) and accused her of wanting to pass as a free woman! So it was not really religious but rather a status symbol.
I made a note to check out/order the books at my local favourite bookshop :)

#22
yes there is no need for niqab, hijab, lowered voice etc etc when women are in presence of women only

bd, grins, faith and reason eh, why dont you do my term paper for me? :D, pretty please, bats lashes, though I think that Ganesh and green hair would not be very conducive in the IS department, despite me being in desperate need for the luck ...

Seeing hearts

I don't need to see your heart; your words were bigoted enough.
The dictionary defines the word bigotry as:
Stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
Isn't this your attitude about Niqab? Aren't you completely intolerant of the belief that some hold that Niqab is farad?

Mockery is defined as:
ridicule, contempt, or derision.
What would you call placing a picture of a broken syringe on a women wearing Niqab? What about comparing the doctors speech to "strangled whisper of a machine gun staccato"

Fanatical: motivated or characterized by an extreme, uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics.
Again this is clearly you. Your enthusiasm is extremely uncritical because you don't regard the others opinion, or the evidences they use to support it. So you are a fanatic.

Disrespect: lack of respect; discourtesy; rudeness.
Have you shown any respect or courtesy to the doctor in what you wrote? Is it rude to write about her without her knowledge, without consulting her and without informing her?


Ungratefulness: unappreciative; not displaying gratitude; not giving due return or recompense for benefits conferred.
You do not appreciate the doctor; your latest response adds weight to this fact. Writing against some one who has tried to help is not giving due return or recompense for benefits conferred.

So you are all I said you are as defined by the dictionary.

You say that the dress of the wives of the prophet was different to other believing women. Others believe differently. You are a bigot because you don't recognise their right to believe differently, you are a fanatic because you attack their opinion without knowing the evidences they use.

As well as you being what I listed in my last response, due to this response I am going to add a couple more words.

You are a ignoramus, defined as: n : an ignorant person.
This is because you have no medical knowledge, and yet you feel you know when a doctor has completed your treatment correctly or incorrectly.
You are ignorant of the fact that any nurse can not administer this injection. If the injection enters a vain or an artery is can lead to what doctors call "hyper sensitivity", imagine the pain and inflammation in your arm in your heart and lungs. That's what would happen if this injection was administered wrongly.
You are ignorant of the fact that the entire purpose of a vaccination is to place an infection inside of you, to make sure your body knows how to fight a deadly infection. Inflammation and pain is the normal response to your body fighting an infection. In the past this was used as a means to test whether someone needed a vaccination. A smear was placed on the skin, if it resulted in inflammation it meant the person already has resistance, so did not need a vaccination.
But you are an ignoramus so you feel that you know more than a doctor who has completed many years of study.

You have also accused me of saying it is obligatory. I didn't. I said some say it is, some say it isn't. Read what I writ again. If you want to know why people say it is obligatory, ask your doctor, instead of bashing her behind her back.

"position of a piece of cloth is what makes me sad"
So stop doing it. Stop attacking people for covering themselves.
So you are also a hypocrite. Defined as: a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

"I dont like and had you read my reply to you properly"
This is another example of your hypocrisy. You are the one who haven't read what I wrote property. If you did, you would have known that I advanced both opinions. Because unlike you, I am not a bigot, I recognise others think differently.

Alakum Salam.

Anamika
If you want to know why people say wearing it is obligatory, ask some one who wears it.
The issue of Hijab vs Niqab is a non-issue for me. As I have mentioned earlier, I was attack TBS's Bigotry, disrespect and ungratefulness, not opinion.
I can cut and past pages of evidence both proving and disproving that Niqab is fared. Better men then I have debated this topic on either side of the argument.
If you want to read the evidence, do a google search, or better yet, speech to some one who wears one. And if TBS was interested in knowledge and not insults and backbiting, tbs would have asked her doctor.
The issue of Niqab being Farrad or not, is a women's issue. Because, they are the ones who choose to wear or not to wear it.
My response wasn't to do with the Niqab/Hijab debate; it was to do with the Bigotry debate. Read my response again if you want clarification. I was attacking bigotry, not showing the face.

abdullah:

you forgot one word

delusional

;)

Abdullah, I congratulate you on your open-mindedness, your tolerance, your wisdom and your proficiency using a dictionary

claps fervently

well done

Thank you for that brilliant post Abdullah. Do return more frequently to the site. And I second temporal - you forgot the word delusional.
More fervent applause to echo the earlier one.
Am curious on one fact though - why shouldn't one question a doctor's ability to treat one correctly? Just wondering....

abdullah

you spent quite a lot of time defining tbs.

I don't need to see your heart; your words were bigoted enough.
The dictionary defines the word bigotry as:
Stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
Isn't this your attitude about Niqab? Aren't you completely intolerant of the belief that some hold that Niqab is farad?

sorry, your logic leaves some holes to be filled. Where is she showing intolerance? By laughing at it? In which case, doesnt that define you as "jumping to conclusions", "lacking sense of humour", "busy with labelling" etc. etc?

repeat for your other santimonious posturing for the other definitional issues.

very strange indeed, look forward for more definitional debate

cheers

bd

an:

27 was tongue in cheek

but my fervent applause was absolutely sincere. my palms still sting from the clapping
;-)

Each to their own but not at the cost of someone's health.

The medical profession demands clean hands before touching a patient. It is as simple as that. The doctor went against her medical oath and was lucky tbs merely wrote about her and not sued her.

What a quack!! Bigotry is not the issue here but blatant disregard for a patient's life and hygienic practices.

BTW here is an awesome website worth checking out www.themuslimwoman.org.

Thanks Deepti, that website was worth checking out :)

racist & insulting, just going with the flow, everyone is now picking on the Niqab, so this person thought to go along & make fun of it, the same people who cry for freedom of expression become DICTATORS when it comes to women OUT OF THEIR OWN WILL wear the niqab, its a shame......

#35 null. I love your fascinating way of putting words which have no relation to the subject under discussion. So now people wearing Niquab are a separate race? And laughing at these hoodies/niquabed women is being insulting? Try again, my friend, this time, with a dictionary in hand.

They do not wear out of their own will, mate. You have got to be kidding me. Either they are brainwashed or they are forced. Take your pick!

A case for "false consciousness"BD for women who "choose to wear the niqab"? See update on the British teaching assistant who has now been sacked from her job. On the good side, BA is trying to get an employee to stop wearing a "visible" cross. And so the madness continues...