The Ramayana, the Sethusamudram and Indian Archaeology

Thanks Jaffna, for an excellent analysis. I was nodding my head time and again reading this, except for the first paragraph. I am just worried that this might open doors for future demolitions of Hindu Heritage Sites. Questions can be raised over many many things like this.
I wont deny economic benefits, but is there no oter way to acutally get the benefits without breaking this bridge? Human mind can accomplish so many things. Maybe, if we really apply ourselves, we can get some solution.
And the reasoning from this Government was diabolical to say the least. And Sonia-Maino was quick to withdraw the affidavit and try some grandstanding. But I feel the damage has been done. The arrow has been released....

Jaffna: Great analysis. I am going to put excerpts on my blog.
Thanks.

A well-articulated and Terrific piece. It deserves to be widely disseminated. The author not only advocates the canal construction to protect Indian strategic interests but also argues against the blatant anti-Hindu behavior by this UPA administration.

btw, here is a good news. The govt. has withdrawn the affidavit.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/sep/13sethu.htm

Hope more protests will teach them a lesson.

Well said Jaffna. What you say is 100% correct. The current pro US Manmohan Singh government does not have the right to belittle the Ramayana or the Hindu Faith. It is not a matter for the congress government to decide whether Ramayana or Mahabarathta or characters in it ever existed. It won't be surprising if the congress government for their political ends go to courts and say "Geetha" is only a fiction story for kids...

For global readers, if you want to understand this important yet somewhat abstruse topic, think of the Suez canal held up from construction because of protests that it was the route taken by Mohammed's horse on his way to heaven. The Indian government is attempting to construct a canal amidst the rocky straits between India and Sri Lanka, where legend has it, the Hindu god Rama constructed a primeval bridge. Jaffna goes into the details and defends the canal while at the same time critiquing the government's stance. Read and spread the word, as the author says,

No secular Government has the prerogative to pontificate on religion unless the public good is adversely impacted.

Government withdraws certain sections of the affidavit

Chicken!

All religion is man-made, so why the fuss - end them all.

In a country devoid of much intelligent conversation these days - I think the Government epitomizes that utter bankruptcy! It is NOT about just Ram! There is enough geological evidence to suggest that it is a man-made structure. If it is indeed man-made, as many top geologists in India believe it to be (http://www.drishtikone.com/?q=adams_bridge_ram_setu_is_a_man_made_structure_top_indian_geologist) then it is NOT just a religious "article of faith" but an Archeological Wonder!! It is a testimony to a great feat of engineering from past that has very few parallels in "scientific leap of faith", if at all!!

The AGE of the relic as opposed to just the FAITH of the relic should make this argument stand scrutiny. Not to discount the faith aspect. For there is no "incovertible evidence" that Babar Masjid was a Masjid anyways or built by Babar.. so why cry over it? What is the "incovertible" evidence that Prophet Mohd or Jesus ever existed? None! Both Quran and Bible were written between 20-200 years AFTER their respective deaths! To understand the "veracity" of Bible or Quran, try telling the world what Rani Jhansi used to say on a DAILY basis!! :-)

Cheers,
Desh
Drishtikone.com

I have few technical questions:

1. Is there any technology available with ASI or NASA or any scientist today to establish whether a dam type structure belived to be 1.7 million year old (Treata Yuga) is man made of Monkey made or Godmade? I myslef a civil engineer with solid background in geology never came across with such technique. That's why I am surprised based on what investigation ASI says Ramsethu is not man made.

2. Ramyana never say this bridge is mad made. It says it was made by Monkeys.

3. It was built by a combination of trees, sand, stones and whatever avaialable those days. It sounds like a earthen dam. After 1.7 million years any earthen dam will look like natural creation of course.

4. In this age of Inter continental Ballistic missiles, giving security resons in an an small of 500 KM radius is ridculous that also againts a freindly countrtyy like Srilanka is foolish.

5. Let's see what Srilankan archeology depart says :

http://www.geocities.com/uk20020/bridge_Srilanka_review.htm

Cynical Nerd,
That was a very well written piece, kudos. There is much to agree with-the cultural reach of the Ramayana is indeed wide and has a veritable historical presence and our politicians are often opportunistic abt appeasing selective faiths.

But the "clean chit" given to faith-any faith-is a bit hard for me to stomach. Even the Ramayana has become a sacred text from Valmiki's literary classic about (what I see as) the tragedy of a king. Where do we stop when faith starts to trump development/strategical projects?

Human beings were not there 1 million years ago, so forget about Rama to be present there. Also, a even if the Ramayana is a history partially, that doesn't mean the Adam's bridge was man(!!)-made.

However, I am against any view that any archeologically important structure to be broken, even if it brings financial benefit for us. But, this Adam's bridge is neither historic nor presently been visited by people and regarded as holy. So, let's get the benefit of the canal.

Very well written CN. The point you raised - would ASI similarly dare challenge islamic or christian beliefs - is really important?
This is why this govt is accused of pseudo-secularism and minority appeasement.

Diganta #12

How do you know human beings were not there 1 Million years ago?

Only because you could not find some dead body of human being burried under some rock somewhere?

Dear Diganta, this formula to evaluate to time when human beings came in to existence may be valid for thsoe who burry their dead bodies but in those civilisations who burn their dead bodies and put bones in river to ger biochemically degraed leave no trace for such evaluation.

How can you be so sure for non existence of such civilisations who used to burn their dead bodies.

More over have you or any other scientist have dig out the whole earth's crust?

I see every year scientists keep on increasing date when life started everytime they find a fossil older then earlier.

World has not ended yet. We have merely half cooked information. Who knows after sometime you will find some dead bodeis a million year old.

In the beginning even Mahabharat was called a Myth by foreigh invaders and their local associates only to disrepute Indian culture.

Today people know hastinapur fort is around 5000 year old. Dwarika found sea is almost the same age and prove beyong doubt that Mahabharat is very much real and not a myth as claimed by invaders and their associates.

We were told by Britsih that creation started 3000 BC in 18th century.

Today in 2007 we are told that oldest human fossil found in Ethyopia is 200000 year old.

Dear Diganta just wait for 100 more year and this figure of 200000 will jump to few million years.

Therefore we should not support destruction of our cultural heritage under toxication of half cooked information on begining of life on earth. let's us have decisive facts and figures then we can think of beliveing our ancient literature as a `Myth'.

Funniest thing is that in India not a single project has been taken up by any scientists to decide historicity of Ramayana.

Are people able to see Ayodhya, Chitrakkot, Pampa saroval, panchvati, valmiki ashram, Agastya literature in Tamil, Rameshwaram and srilankan historical sites.

please think deeper. Invaders never trusted Indians. East India company always wanted a verification fro gagetted office for any certificate or job for `Indian black dogs' only becasue they believed every Indian is lier and hence so are their ancinet books.

Do we belive what east India compnay used to say about us? Or we prefer to carry out our own investigations to decide about ourselves?

They say Bible is lietrary evidence. Ancinet Greek or arabic books are literary evidence, ancinet Roman books are literary evidence but ancinet Hindu books are not acceptable?

Why? nobody knows. Yes there are cetain cosmetism in description in ancinet literature of India but it is so in almost ancinet cultures.

Let's use our own mind and stop trusting blindly what east India company and their paid historians wrote about us?

Diganta

Jaffna is not arguing against the canal per se. He only argues that the center's affidavit was uncalled for, unwarranted and highly selective. No administration in Delhi would have dared make a similar statement on the Bible or Quran.

There is no Adam's bridge. It is Sethusamudram - the old indigenous name.
My personal sense (based on no evidence) is that it could be the work of neolithic men. The picture of the Sethu bridge from outer space is quite a marvel - even if not man made.

Nityan

Hello Jaffna
The thrust of your essay is incorrect: plenty of historians, scientists, anthropologists, philosophers and various other smart types have questioned the absurd notion of Christ's virgin birth and the other myths woven into world religions. Indeed I'm surprised you've not noticed that it seems to be a current vogue in publishing to publish such critiques.
It is abundantly clear from what we know about the universe and from what we know about the human mind that the idea that a god commanded an army of monkeys to build a bridge to Lanka is just a rather beautiful man-dreamed myth, and an organisation as scientifically rigourous as the ASI is right -- indeed morally compelled -- to say as much. I hope it brings us a smidgen closer to the day when humans simply revere all other humans and the planet they live on and the universe it spins in, rather than personal deities.
The Ramayana et al still stand as immensely valuable works of epic literature and national legend, perhaps comparable to status the legend of King Arthur holds in the UK.
It is always better to strive for the truth than a cozy fiction, and I strongly disagree with your suggestion that anyone should be stopped from speaking what they believe to be the truth, not least in a sworn affidavit to the Supreme Court. (Conversely, I support the right for people to advance alternative supernatural explanations -- just so long as they are prepared to hear people disagree with them.) Sadly, you may well be right the ASI might be more reluctant to question the Bible or the Quran -- more's the pity.

The kind of dogma you and Advani are airing helps no one, and drowns out the rational objections to the canal project made by environmentalists. It is fortunate that dogma in this case might only leave ships stuck sailing a longer route. Dogma routinely does far bloodier damage.

Patrick

The thrust of your argument is about rationalism but you cannot ignore the impact of selective rationalism. In a society as divided as ours, it is best that either the Govt accepts that all religions are hocus pocus or stays away from the completely.

rgds

Historians want concrete proof of events/ ancient people/ from the period the person is said to have lived, before they will be admitted as "historical". Till then,such ideas are more correctly described as "myths" or "legends" or "traditions". I'm not a historian, bit I understand concrete proof, refers to stuff like official records, dynastic records, inscriptions, offical histories, mentions in books other than poetic and literary works, and so on. If these corroborating proofs exist, something can be seen as "historical".

All the stuff that you wrote is dated much later than Shri Ram is said to have lived, which is why they would not be accepted by hsitorians as evidence that Rama was a historical person.

The distinction is good, and we should see it as just that, a techical distinction, rather than an insult!

I really don't think such historical standards are reserved for only one religion. For instance, while Jesus' birth is probably accepted as part of history, due to references to his name in non-Christian historian's and several letters, records of the first century AD, His virgin birth is not accepted quite so blithely as "historical"! That,really, is a matter of faith.

While Christians in india have a strong oral tradition that Thomas, ome of Christ's disciples came to India in the first century, that is NOT accepted as a historical fact, as there are no papers or documents from the period to prove it. It can only be called a tradition.

While Mohammed's birth and details of his life are historical, the appearance of the angel and imparting of the Koran directly to him can only be called Muslim traditions ...there is no historical proof of that.

It is really in no way surprising that Ram's life has no historical proof, since he is said to have lived so long ago. The further back something is set, the less likely it is to have concrete historical proof, and the more likely it is to have additions and magical elements attached; as also different versions of the same story.

Perhaps some history students would add their bit here.

Chandra,


Patrick does say, and I wholeheartedly agree, that politicians would be less likely to openly question the Bible and the Quran. But I don't think that the solution to that is for us-I mean us "rational" folk, vague as that term is:)-to object to their questioning any faith. Surely selective irrationalism is not an antidote to selective rationalism? The correct antidote is universal rationalism. Unfortunately, we're far from that:)

PH

I get your point but I think what you seek is a long term goal, what the Govt is doing now is driving people towards conflict...

rgds

Chandra,
It's possible. I don't put anything past politicians:)

Cheers

It is surprising that in place of accepting the limitation of modern science we are trying to deny a fact visible with a naked eye.

How old is teh structure may be point of dispute but structure exists. Ayodhya exists, Chitrakoot exists, Lanks exists, Rameshwaram exists, and Ramsethu exists.

The conlfict of modern scientific studies(which were never done by any agency) and ancinet literature doesn'nt tantamount to that fact that bridge doesn'nt exist.

Therefore denying a truth infront of naked eye only becasue limited capabilities of modern science could not find some indepenedet evidence to proove the artificial bridge doesn'nt make the point that bridge doesn'nt exist.

If a women is raped and rapists modern science could not find any evidence againt rapists deosn'nt mean that rape never occured in spite of rationalist court has set the criminal free due to lack of evidence. fact remains that rape was carried out and women suffered. Who did it is for police to find out.

Bridge exists today. Oral tradition says it was built by Rama 1.7 million years ago.

This truth should be supported untill scientists bring find who was the builder and when it was built.

Nobody is opposing canal here. There are alternative routs and even cheaper routs then this. But Government is adamant to attack the faith of majority under instructions from gangs of Mao, Marx and mMcauley sitting in India and abroad.

Those people who have an opportunity to have a look at the project report (that is not freely avalailable though and due to copyright violations I can not provide links here) there were 6 proposed paths.

1. Report of 1961
2. Report of 1968
3. Report of 1996
4. Path proposed by executive commitee after studying the first three.
5. 1998 Report reveied by NEERI , Nagpur
6. Path proposed by NEERI after reviewing path 5

Path 4 ensured the integriti of Ramsethu.

However government if moving ahead on on path 5 .

It is clear that there were ways to avoid this destruction of cultural heritage.

This government put river connecting project the project ensuring permanent relief from floods and garughts, canal between Arabian sea to bay of bengal and many oter important projects that may reduce distance fro passing ships by thousands of kilometers.

But somehow focussing on this narrow canal(through which largers ships can not pass through)and distance reduction is merelu 500-600 Km.

Why government is adamant to destroy our cultural heritage for minor benefits while other ignoring major issues country is being haunted by.

The canal may reduce sea travel time from Mumbai to Chennai by 400 miles but do you know how expensive if it is profitable? Dredging a sea is damn expensive.

I wish to come from an entirely different angle- that of the marine ecosystem. In the name of trade and commerce, we have certainly taken over much of the seas and oceans and polluted them beyond doubt.

In a narrow strait, why go in for a canal project which has its own issues, in the long run- We know that the Panama canal has become a great ecological crisis for Costa Rica. The Suez has its set of problems.

The marine ecology of straits are unique to these reef/tidal barriers. They provide a niche for thousands of marine species that we, as the human species have no right to take away. It is time America and other countries that follow the capitalistic model of that country learn the term Speciesism and watch the film Earthlings.

Somebody wrote that modern human being did not exist 1.7 million years ago. This is not true. The oldest skull discovered in south africa is 6 million years old, which some argue to be of Homo Erectus, and other believe to be a transitional species between Homo Erectus and modern human. But believe me or not Homo Erectus were hunter gatherer, they knew how to make fire, and so it will be not be surprising that they were the mythological monkey armies of Ram! I am just trying to imagine it, but then we cannot rule out a period of human history where our ancestors lived side by side with Homo Erectus or other pre-human ape species.
I never heard about Ram Sethu...I mean, I thought that all those written in Ramayana was pure myth. But then when I saw the satellite image, I was kind of surprised. It does look like a bridge. It actually looks beautiful. It is possible that there was already a natural coral formation in that site, and then Ram was clever enough to put some trees and stones to make it a walk-way for his Homo Erectus army to get into the Lanka island. Just to let you know, we know little about our evolution from Ape. So, do not underestimate the ability of Homo Erectus. Also, keep it in mind that Hindu myth is powerful...in fact, Hindu myth is the only one that talk about the age of universe in billions of years compare to the West's earlier view of a 6000 years old Universe (as written in Old Testament). And, then I was in Australia last year where I met some aborginal people, and they were living in the isolated pockets in the northwest of australian desert. They migrated to that area 40,000 years ago. Their cave painting is as modern as today..brilliant expression. Imagine that these people migrated from Asian mainland to the desert of Australia 40000 years ago (it may be older than that). Present genetic data reveal that their gene separated from African about 2 million years ago, so folk, our history may be much older than what we are ready to imagine today. Do not ignore the myth of Ramar Bridge!!! It is also a fun to see how a Monkey (Homo Erectus?) bridge is making wave of news and blogging around the cyberworld of 21st century. It is amazing...

Patrick,

While many intellectuals may question the virgin birth, cruxifixtion, resurrection and other events in the life of Jesus, not to mention his very existence given the complete lack of contemporary literary, archeological or numismatic evidence, no Government would dare file an affidavit that Jesus was not a historical person.

Individuals may express their view and have the right to think what they do, but a secular state can not be selective in its denunciation of one religion to the exclusion of others.

The Archeological Survey of India had no right to include the objectional paragraph in its affidavit questioning the existence of Rama. It should have stuck to its brief and focus on the historicity or otherwise of the Sethu Bridge. I now question whether it is an independent body of serious archeological research to begin with. It appears to be a mere political arm of the Government in power. It surprises me that it included language that had been prior reviewed by Government (no independent academic body should have its work so edited by a political authority before submission) which would now be expunged by Government in light of political opposition building up! Surely, the ASI's voice as an independent authority is now compromised with such overt politicization!

I am no expert to decide whether the Sethu Bridge is manmade or not. The ASI had the right to determine, based on the evidence that it had, that this was a natural geological formation and not an archeological monument. But to extend its mandate to question the historicity of the Ramayana was quite another matter.

There are natural geological/botanical/marine reserves in Australia and North America which are of religious value to the indigenous peoples there. There are similar areas in Japan important to the Shinto tradition. The basis of the sanctity is tradition (which many call myth). These areas are protected by law from commercial development despite constituting prime property. Now, no archeological commission in those countries would argue that these traditions fall into the realm of myth, lack historicity and can therefore be dismissed in the pursuit of commercial development!

I would not compare the Ramayana with the legends of King Arthur. The Ramayana had far more influence across the centuries and across the miles than did the legends of King Arthur. It was translated into a myriad of languages in the pre-modern era.

The better comparison would be Homer's Illiad and Odyssey - the national epics of the Hellenic world. Many initially thought that the Illiad was pure myth until subsequent archeological excavations revealed that there was an element of truth to the entire story.

I support the Sethusamudram canal for strategic and military reasons. But the Government should have just stuck to the defence of that project proposal rather than get embroiled in the larger literary questions pertaining to the Ramayana.

Let me end with a final point. Is the notion of the Sethu Bridge a recent one, one introduced by the VHP to embarass the current administration in New Delhi? Or is it an older belief? European travellers/academics in the 1300s, 1700s and 1800s CE make mention of the belief that this geological stretch was linked to the Ramayana. I refer here to Marco Polo, Ludovico de Varthema, Thomas Horsfield, William James, Arnold Hermann, William Yates,Clements Markham etc. The tradition is therefore quite old and the Government would need to proceed with tact.

Best regards

I agree with Cynical Nerd, a nation's development is important and critical and we need to be prepared to make some sacrifices, but that does not mean Govt can play with religious sentiments of the community, a secular government has got no reason to talk about it. having said this, we also need to look in aspects to solve the problem, it is not clear to me how big and wide they are going to break the bridge, if it is for ships, then we have seen in other places like Suez and panama canal where a narrow shipping line is dredged, something along those lines should would be good as the impact on environment if any will be minimal and also we can still preserve the remaining portion of the link, moderates should encourage debates on focusing the real challenge which is to cut down the distance between western and eastern seaboard's, by brining in religious and strategic sentiments we are losing out on real economic benefits, focus on economics to get this through.

'Widening Ramar Sethu can amplify tsunamis'
http://www.rediff.com///news/2007/jun/22inter.htm

Also Go THRU 13th SEPT'S MINT NEWSPAPER.....

1st of all this sethusamundram project that costs 2,600 crores is NOT GOING TO HELP ANYONE....listen to what experts have to say...
(1) Capt. H. Balakrishnan (former indian navy sailor now joined merchant navy) said that "I've studied this project like a mariner & found that project helps no one. No ship of more than 30,000 tonnes of weight will be able to use this channel bcoz of it's depth" coz this channel is just 12 meters deep...& larger ships require more space....in fact no foreign company nowadays use 30,000 ton ships....actually normanlly shipping cos use 45,000 ton plus ships.
(2) Anjani Sinha of MCX says that even indian shipping cos will also NOT GET ANY BENEFIT from this project.
(3) Arun Sharma, president of Kolkata based shipping co also said that they will not use this channel as Govt has already given them notice to stay 50 nautical miles away from Sri Lankan coast line bcoz of Security threat from LTTE. but if they use this channel they will go within 15 miles distance from SL coast line....that means JAAN KO JYAADA KHATRA.
(4)Even some experts say that channel will not save 24 hours time to cross indian southern part...as to cross the channel a ship will need experienced pilot...that takes time & larger ships will need to turn off their propellers...or else they will run aground. Getting a pilot, then move the ship slowly & then off-board the pilot take 2-3 hrs each. So shipping cos will hardly save 2-3 hrs. which is not justified.

------------

Here are scientific reasons to ban this damn project.

1) Marine: Gulf of Mannar, has over 3600 known species of fauna and flora, many of them endangered and listed in Schedule I under Indian Wildlife Act. You can not simply put their life at risk by Sethu project. The bridge acts as a barrier and creates the opportunity for such a phenomenal marine life.

2) Channel: The channel is going to be a nightmare to manage. If the ship runs into trouble, there is no way to extricate it to clear the channel.

3) Kerala coast: The natural bridge also acts as a barrier to protect Kerala coast. It was evident in the 2004 Tsunami. The Setu Canal will provide an alternative route for the Infonesian tsunamis to funnel energy into the channel.

4) Biased reports: The only detailed report on this project has been commissioned by SCL in collarobation with NEERI and NIOT. The raw data came from S. Kathiroli, Director of NIOT, who also sits on the board of Dredging Corp of India(DCI). Wow!? Sure, you will get the unbiased report for Rs 26000 crore project. Keep dreaming. The report mentioned that there was no rock in the Ram Sethu bridge. It was proven wrong when a dredger got hit one solid rock and broke its spud.

Ram Sethu is supposed to have been a floating one.How do u explain its disapperance under the sea ?

The ASI added that the Sethu Bridge was "merely a sand and coral formation" devoid of "historical, archaeological or artistic interest or importance." But the literary evidence suggests otherwise!

What literary evidence?
Ah, you mean the Valmiki Ramayana and Ramcharita Manas?

They also talk about Monkeys building this bridge. So, you are saying that Monkeys DID REALLY build this bridge?
:)

India is now running extremely low on Vitamin S, where S stands for Science. The lack of this vitamin has led to a disease called 'our sentiments are hurt'. The first sign of this disease is that human emotions and sentiments become more important in the matters of running the state whereas logic and reason are booted out of the door.

India is currently running very low on this vitamin. The number of PhDs has gone down drastically. The existing scientists are leaving their jobs to join private firms, or talking gibberish, or playing politics. The academicians and professors are teaching Vedas and Puranas as Science. And the young kids are memorizing the formulae without knowing what they mean.

Indians are getting educated on a massive scale but they are learning it rote, memorizing stuff, reprinting the texts verbatim in their exams. At the same time, they are completely losing out on learning the essence. They are gaining knowledge, but getting foolish at the same time.

In the latest controversy engulfing the political parties of India, certain people defending the story that Adam's Bridge was built by monkeys of Rama have moved Supreme Court of India citing quotations from Valmiki Ramayana and Ramcharitamanas to back up their stand.

In the latest controversy engulfing the political parties of India, certain people defending the story that Adam's Bridge was built by monkeys of Rama have moved Supreme Court of India citing quotations from Valmiki Ramayana and Ramcharitamanas to back up their stand.

These petitioners have claimed that Ram Sethu/Adam's Bridge is 1.75 Millions years old.

What happens to a billion people when they do not get their dose of Vitamin S on an adequate level? You get a cocktail country where mythology is mixed with history, blind belief mixed logic, irrationality mixed with rationality. In short, you get a billion idiots.

Humans have been human for much less than 1 millions years. So, how come Rama existed before humans became humans? And how did he achieve this grand feat of building a bridge using monkeys?

Was Rama an ape then or was he a human then? Is it blasphemy to ask this question?

#1, Kannan:
I am just worried that this might open doors for future demolitions of Hindu Heritage Sites.

Heritage sites? If some religious idiot says that Bay of Bengal is the exact site where Asuras and Devas have churned potion of immortality, would you stop venturing into that sea?

Even if I were to go by Ramayana written by Valmiki, it is not man-built, it is monkey-built.

Do we preserve all ant-hills as heritage sites?

#24, Bikram:

Don't attempt science when you don't know science. It will unnecessarily have a negative effect on science to have spokesman like you.

Somebody wrote that modern human being did not exist 1.7 million years ago. This is not true.

Voila! There the evolutions fails once again. Instead of making people smarter, it is making them dumber. Humans became humans less than half a millions years ago. Most generous estimates do not put this date beyond 350,000 years ago. Most accepted date is about 130,000 years ago. Prior to that different species existed. They are not humans. They did not construct things, they did not build bridges. They did not even write. They did not speak languages the way we speak. There was no culture as mentioned in Ramayana. Civilizations took place less than 12,000 years ago.

The oldest skull discovered in south africa is 6 million years old, which some argue to be of Homo Erectus, and other believe to be a transitional species between Homo Erectus and modern human. But believe me or not Homo Erectus were hunter gatherer, they knew how to make fire, and so it will be not be surprising that they were the mythological monkey armies of Ram! I am just trying to imagine it, but then we cannot rule out a period of human history where our ancestors lived side by side with Homo Erectus or other pre-human ape species.

Please keep your imagination out of this. The more you speak the more we have to conclude that we are in the midst of apes here.

I never heard about Ram Sethu...I mean, I thought that all those written in Ramayana was pure myth. But then when I saw the satellite image, I was kind of surprised.

Why don't you look at this picture here to conclude that Man actually lived on Mars. Many fools on earth actually believe that Man lived on Mars based on this picture taken by satellites.

It does look like a bridge. It actually looks beautiful. It is possible that there was already a natural coral formation in that site, and then Ram was clever enough to put some trees and stones to make it a walk-way for his Homo Erectus army to get into the Lanka island.

Read Harry Potter.

Present genetic data reveal that their gene separated from African about 2 million years ago, so folk, our history may be much older than what we are ready to imagine today.

Hold your horses there.

Do not ignore the myth of Ramar Bridge!!! It is also a fun to see how a Monkey (Homo Erectus?) bridge is making wave of news and blogging around the cyberworld of 21st century. It is amazing...

I know it is amazing to know that evolution has no effect on certain apes. They still remain apes. Also it is amazing that some people believe they have been abducted by aliens, and some people believe they have traveled in time. Some people believe they took a rebirth- even in the cyberworld in 21st century.

#25, Jaffna:
no Government would dare file an affidavit that Jesus was not a historical person.

That's because no government would dare human stupidity.

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.- Albert Einstein

The notion that a government should not talk about religion is bull-shit argument.
The more we go away from that notion better it is for India.

The Center had to talk about existence of Rama was ONLY because the petitioners used quotations from Ramayana to make a case for Rama's bridge.

Its like using JK Rowling's Harry Potter to make a case for existence of Hogwart School.

Then the counter argument is to say - there is no historical evidence to suggest Harry Potter existed.

@sujai - we are not surprised at your flood of emotions above; considering your leftist inclinations.
However, there were better ways for governement to tackle opposition to the canal. Had they done that; they would have avoided the embarassment and humiliation to themselves.
However, govt has realised their blunder and they have withdrawn affidavits in SC.

sujai

well sujai, you are quoting all the text book information well and good. But fact about the science is, it is not knoledge, it is just identifying our foolishness.

before thomson's invention of electron there is a theory like, atom is the smallest particle.But after his invention it is not.that is science.But it is commonsence that some people praying someone as god, critisizing that god make them angry.

Once the matter is GOD, then there is no LOGIC, no Science will work. I am a science student, i know what science can't do still now.That's why i believe god.

I think you have got Vitamin S overdose.

and what do you mean by...this

!!!!That's because no government would dare human stupidity. !!!! in the #34 comment.

Sujai:

My my!!!

You certainly have double standards. You repeatedly defend Islamic fundamentalism in the Desicritics columns demanding that we make strenuous effort to understand the causes and contextual reasons for its emergence.

However, you always attack those who defend Hinduism when it is belittled and ridiculed. In fact, you ridicule Hinduism yourself in the name of your rather pompous claims to rationality. You are a self-hating Hindu. You are vicious.

Jaffna wrote:

"The ASI added that the Sethu Bridge was merely a sand and coral formation devoid of historical, archaeological or artistic interest or importance. But the literary evidence suggests otherwise!"

Yes, the evidence comes from centuries of belief that this place had an significance in the minds of many. Temples such as Rameshwaram, the traditions of Kingship in South India and neighboring Sri Lanka etc were what he referred to!

You hate Hinduism - don't you??

Sujai,

yes government should talk about religions. You are quite right. It is stupidity to continue superstitions.

let's be truly scinetific and not merely use science and technology to abuse oursleves.

When first human was born? You say there were no humans 1 million years ago? How do you know that?

It is based on fossils found burried below ground and oldest till date is 200,000 year old in Ethiopiya. isn'nt it?

But scientists are open minded on the isue. They keep on shifting this date back and back as new evidence is found. Are you sure you have excavated whole earth and there will be no human bones found older then 200,000 years old in future? R U?

Will you be happy to repent for your foolishness after destroying your cultural heritage when one fine day you will come to know yes there is evidence that humans lived in Srilanka 1.7 million years ago based on some human bones as Indic civilisations always burnt their dead bodies and never burried. Yes those civilisation who burry their dead may be 200,000 year old. But what's teh criteria for those civilisations who burn their dead bodies.

Please. Why don'nt you trust yopur own forfathers vis a vis historians associated with foreign invaders. Why?

Think over it. Ramayans says stones that could float were used. sandstone and coral reef is the possibile building material and that's what scientists also say.

Trees, soil by squirrel and many other things used. There are astronomican evidences. You can back calculate the time of Rama based on planetry positions mentioned at his time of birth. Birth chart and foot print of Rama is still preserved by people. That combination of planets really existed 1.7 millioon years.

Rivers, falura and fauna describes exactly matches with each and every location.

Why are you people so much trust imperialist historians and abuse your own forgathers please Think for a moment.

Let scinec come to its ultimate conclusion when humans strated life on this planet. Till then let's do better projects then destroying our cultural heritage.

next part is question of equality. have you heard about Calcutta Quarn petition?

A man petitioned that 120 ayats of quran preach hatered and violence against non muslims then why should not these parts be banned or the book be banned. You know what Judge under pressure of governmemnt machinery gave the judgement:

As quran has not been written by any human being, it is a divine book, Indian Judiciary has no jurisdiction on any such books that came from God.

If Indian Judicial system or government has no jurisdiction on irrational beliefs of Muslims faith why the same government / Judiciary do not treat Hindus and Indian religions with equal footing. Just think over it. Can a government prove that hair put in hajrat bal dargah of Kashmir truly is the hair of Moahmmed? But still when terrorists captured it , Indian government never attacked it in spite of loss of its many soldiers and gave a free way to killers?

I call upon all educated Indians to think about it deeply. Please.

As Bridge was made by monkeys under guidance of God and not by man, your statement that no humans existed 1 Million years ago.
Please see the altest in scinece:

Humans/Ape/Monkeys existed on this earth even around 34055 Million years ago.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/04/030402073345.htm
The tiny fossils offer evidence that the ancestors of bushbabies and lorises appeared during the Eocene epoch that lasted from 55 million to 34 million years ago -- at least twice as early as previous fossils had shown. These fossils represent the oldest known "toothcombed" prosimians -- a group that also includes the lemurs of Madagascar. The other two primate groups are anthropoids (monkeys, apes and humans), and tarsiers.

Think over it sujai.

let me say again that we should be destroy our beautiful tree of culture under inflrunce of half cooked data and historians who associated with froeign invaders please.

Monkeys existed even 55 million years ago sujai.

I have been observing Sujai's antics in desicritics for a while. As Mrinalini pointed out, he always supports Islamic fundamentalist in the name of minoritysm while ridiculing those who defend the all out attack against Hindu beliefs.

Pray tell us, if it is the business of Central government to get involved in religion, why do they fund Haj pilgrimage without verifying if its a myth or a fact? After all what is the proof that Allah exists or the so-called angel Gabriel 'revealed' the holy message to Mohammad?

The Western world have invested so much of monetary and intellectual resources over centuries to 'prove' the existence of a 2000 year person in vain. Given the dismal record of the ASI in maintaining and excavating monuments, how could one take its word as a fact.

Like Mrinalini pointed out-sujai is vicious. And vicious people with self-conviction are danger to the society. Like bin laden.

Quote of the day:

Its like using JK Rowling's Harry Potter to make a case for existence of Hogwart School.

Then the counter argument is to say - there is no historical evidence to suggest Harry Potter existed.

Mrinalini:

You certainly have double standards. You repeatedly defend Islamic fundamentalism in the Desicritics columns demanding that we make strenuous effort to understand the causes and contextual reasons for its emergence.

I am hoping you were sincere when you made these remarks, and hence this attempt to clarify.

I have NEVER defended Islamic fundamentalism anywhere.

I have only tried to understand Islamic fundamentalism if ever.

Instead, I have defended other things, such as:
1. A man's right to fight for his homeland and his aspirations to form an independent nation or state.
2. A man's right to keep his faith and not be imposed upon to conform to the majority to prove his patriotism.

Another stance that I have consistently taken is:
Not to judge a religion by its books or its founders.

However, you always attack those who defend Hinduism when it is belittled and ridiculed.

Hinduism is not belittled nor ridiculed just because someone says Rama doesn't exist. If someone says Narasimha avatar did not actually take place, does that mean Hinduism vanishes away? If someone says that Asuras and Devas never actually churned the sea, does it rob away richness from Hinduism?

However, when people start using that stories to stop constructing dams, or stop dredging sea, or stop people from fishing into the seas, then it becomes a ridiculous state. And I consistently fight that.

If Muslims were to protest against launching of PSLV citing some weird interpretations of Koran, I would completely call it rubbish and call them idiotic and ask them to just keep the religion to themselves.

If Muslims were to impose Shariat onto me I would protest vehemently.

In fact, you ridicule Hinduism yourself in the name of your rather pompous claims to rationality. You are a self-hating Hindu. You are vicious.

No comments there. Because you are now getting a bit delusional there.

#38, Mrinalini:

You hate Hinduism - don't you??

No. Not really. There is an article on Desicritics titled, The beauty of Hinduism- if there is any at
http://desicritics.org/2007/05/10/004905.php

But yes, I cannot stand people with very low IQ who start defending Hinduism just for the sake of defending, especially the radical kinds, like the ones seen a lot on this forum.

Sujai:

Bismillah Rahman i raheem.

Greetings to a devout Momin on the first day of the holy month of Ramadan. Allah would reward you for your efforts to root out Kufr in the benighted land of Hind!

Now let's get serious.

You state in comment # 31

"What happens to a billion people when they do not get their dose of Vitamin S(cience) on an adequate level? You get a cocktail country where mythology is mixed with history, blind belief mixed logic, irrationality mixed with rationality. In short, you get a billion idiots".

Do not dismiss an entire nation on the basis of what a few mavericks do. I doubt you would characterize Islam in similar sweeping fashion! You generalize and stereotype when it comes to Hinduism.

The petition at the Supreme Court may have been far fetched (I never read it but you seem to have reviewed it) but Jaffna's point was not to defend that. He only attacked the ASI Affidavit which instead of rebuking the petitioners went one step further to question the very historicity of Rama -which was quite outside their terms of reference.

The Government correctly realized that blunder and hurriedly withdrew the affidavit!

As Man Singh in comment # 39 quite appropriately pointed out, the Calcutta High Court refused to pass judgement on the Koran on the premise that no civil body had the right to judge a religious text. The same applies for the ASI. A secular state has no business to dabble in theological issues.

Nityan:

[IRRELEVANT TO DISCUSSION]

The Western world have invested so much of monetary and intellectual resources over centuries to 'prove' the existence of a 2000 year person in vain. Given the dismal record of the ASI in maintaining and excavating monuments, how could one take its word as a fact.

There is no historical evidence that Rama existed. But that does not mean he didn't exist. He may, or he may not have. On the other hand, there is enough historical evidence to suggest Alexander existed. The same applies to Ashoka.

Now, what do we do when there is no record of his existence? We look at other plausible theories.

The guys who petitioned against the project cited quotations from Ramayana. That is ridiculous. Unless we can prove that this is a historical document written at the time when Rama existed or just after that, it can as well be considered work of fiction.

Look at the number suggested by these guys. They believe Rama existed at around 1.75 Million years ago.

That is when you should start doubting the whole thing. Humans became humans around 300,000 years ago. Estimates differ but no evidence, no scientist, no biologist would ever concede that they existed prior to half a million years ago.

And how did they arrive at this magical 1.75 Million number?

They used the same texts to calculate yugas and other hindu dates to figure this out. And none of these dates are ever proved to be accurate.

Civilizations, societies, started not earlier than 15,000 years ago. Most estimates put this figure at 12,000 years ago.

Rama and his story clearly suggests a civilization, a kingdom, and those did not appear before 12,000 years ago.

Pray tell us, if it is the business of Central government to get involved in religion, why do they fund Haj pilgrimage without verifying if its a myth or a fact? After all what is the proof that Allah exists or the so-called angel Gabriel 'revealed' the holy message to Mohammad?

You should ask the government that question. I do not fund Haj pilgrimage. My tax money is used to fund many nonsensical things, I do not go about protesting every such nonsense. But if Haj pilgrimage is the reason why they stop constructing a bridge, I would protest.

[EDITED]

Humans/Ape/Monkeys existed on this earth even around 34055 Million years ago.

Where do you get your numbers from?

That's 34 Billion years. The age of Universe is approximately 12-15 Billion years. The age of Earth is approximately 5 Billion years. The life started approximately 4 Billion years ago. And for the first 3 Billion years, life was unicellular.

Thank you, but no thanks. Can't discuss with you.

Nityan:
Don't try to analyze me.

Do not dismiss an entire nation on the basis of what a few mavericks do. I doubt you would characterize Islam in similar sweeping fashion! You generalize and stereotype when it comes to Hinduism.

mavericks? Hmm...

If I was born a Muslim and was born an Iranian, I would have much stronger statements for that nation. I am born a Hindu, and therefore this criticism of Hinduism.

--

I have no problems in quoting religious texts for your sermons, but to use it as evidence?
That's ridiculous!

Sujai

I think the following excerpt from Jaffna would be relevant:

"There are natural geological/botanical/marine reserves in Australia and North America which are of religious value to the indigenous peoples there. There are similar areas in Japan important to the Shinto tradition. The basis of the sanctity is tradition (which many call myth). These areas are protected by law from commercial development despite constituting prime property. Now, no archeological commission in those countries would argue that these traditions fall into the realm of myth, lack historicity and can therefore be dismissed in the pursuit of commercial development!"

And mind you - he supports Sethusamudram. The point is the ASI affidavit - not the monkey brigade.

Sujai

As to your comment number 46 - the concept of yugas and kalpas is common to Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism. The concept does not refer to human history but to cyclical time. Carl Sagan and Fritjof Kapra as were several other modern astronomers were intrigued by the idea.

I think you trivialize concepts you know very little about by mentioning that 'none of these dates ever proved to be accurate' You are no better than the Bajrang Dal in your sweeping generalizations.

By the way, I am not even Indian - but I note a mindset in you similar to the fundamentalists in my own country - the bible thumping variety who think that they alone are correct.

Why not you listen with an open mind to those who write outside of the fundamentalist prism - and there were quite a few in the comments thread - instead of passing severe judgement and reducing the level of debate here.

To be fair - others are to blame too but hey - you provoked it.

Asta la maniana

sujai says - I have NEVER defended Islamic fundamentalism anywhere. I have only tried to understand Islamic fundamentalism if ever.

People like sujai try to UNDERSTAND why thousands of innocents are brutally murdered by terrorists globally but they won't try to understand why there is public uproar when ASI makes rude comments about Ramayana.

Roger:

By the way, I am not even Indian - but I note a mindset in you similar to the fundamentalists in my own country - the bible thumping variety who think that they alone are correct.

Well said, the rabid frothing reaction from Sujai did not surprise me. No one was questioning the perspective with which this post has been written. The author takes care to argue that its mystical indeed, as with many other things which Sujai supports.

The author took offense only at the attempted mockery of the Hindu religion by a govt. Sujai took that and extended it to say that defending Hinduism is equal to stupidity.

Thats basically what any fundamentalist would say, he would take and inch off evidence and make it into a feet of evidence, take one feet and make it a mile, and so on and so forth until he declares, with froth in his mouth, hatred in his heart and clay in his brain that you have sinned and shall be punished.

This is the same with Osama shouting death to infidels, the same thing with bible thumping christians, the same thing with the commie motherfuckers, the VHP monkey brigade,the infamous Nazis, and the fanatical secular hogwash types that Sujai, without an inkling of a doubt, belongs to.

We need to eliminate fanaticism. If you are secular, respect all religions equally or do not care about any.

In such a case, 'hogwash' Sujai should know that in Kerala Engineering colleges, on friday there is 2 hrs and 30 mins of lunch time for the muslims to pray. The muslim population in those colleges are minimal, so why in the world does EVERYONE else have to waste 1hr 30 minutes more for the muslims. 5 times prayer does not make sense to me, just like no religion makes sense to me.

Moreover, the froth-in-the-mouth fanatic sujai should also note that none of the muslim/christian religious centers in kerala are NOT under govt. control only the hindu ones are. I am sure he supports this.. coz not only does he hate Hinduism, he actively seeks to destroy it.

Fanatic Froth-in-the-mouth people anywhere in the world fuck their mothers and should be treated just the way they treat their victims. burn them at the stakes, if possible.

Well said hist: He UNDERSTANDS why Islamic terrorists bomb hyderabad to bits, its because the poor ppl at Gokul chat did not serve chat to muslims or someone draws the muhamed caricature. But when ASI selectively derides hinduism and some of our people use literary means to protest, the hogwash froth-in-the-mouth Sujai comes to the defence of secularism.

If there is a last name to the Sujai the Fanatic, it would be Sujai DoubleStandards!

#52, Lakshmikanth:
The author took offense only at the attempted mockery of the Hindu religion by a govt.

Do you think saying 'there is no evidence to prove existence of Rama' is mockery? How about saying there is no evidence to prove existence of Vamana avatar or Narasimha avatar or Kurma avatar?

If you are secular, respect all religions equally or do not care about any.

Secularism is keeping state separate from religion.

--

[EDITED]

Roger:
"There are natural geological/botanical/marine reserves in Australia and North America which are of religious value to the indigenous peoples there. There are similar areas in Japan important to the Shinto tradition. The basis of the sanctity is tradition (which many call myth). These areas are protected by law from commercial development despite constituting prime property."

We have the same in India. There are many religious sites protected from any damage. We have thousands of shrines, temples, hills, ponds, trees, caves, etc, which are protected for religious purposes.

Sethusamudram is a coral which was never visited, prayed to, or considered religious till the government decided to dredge it.

One could go ahead cite many land formations as work of God and thus stop any development activity. This is already done in India. People bury a small statue of God in the night and then unearth it during the day, and soon a temple is formed there- thereby stopping the government from constructing a transformer or a factory.

This is already a disturbing phenomenon in India.

Blind belief, as long as it is a fringe movement, can be tolerated, but when it is embraced by majority, you get Iran.

And Roger would definitely not like to live in Iran, I guess!

Roger:
Please don't bring Carl Sagan into this. He would be turning in his grave.

You have no clue in what context Carl Sagan talked about Yugas. He would not have contended Adam's Bridge was a man-made construction!

#51, hist:

People like sujai try to UNDERSTAND why thousands of innocents are brutally murdered by terrorists globally but they won't try to understand why there is public uproar when ASI makes rude comments about Ramayana.

Yes, people like Sujai try to UNDERSTAND why millions of innocents are brutally murdered by state-terrorism globally, blowing them up with most destructive bombs.

And contrary to your assertion, people like Sujai also try to understand why there is a public uproar when ASI makes 'factual' comments about Ramayana- and the answer is idiocy of gigantic proportions.

The same thing common with a religious leader when he proclaims fatwa on an author of a book which he never read.

#56
But I never saw you making such vociferous and vicious comments as above when -

1. A religious leader when he proclaims fatwa on an author of a book which he never read (and same mullahs do not issue a single fatwa against any terrorist).
2. Ethnic cleansing of 4 lakh hindus from Kashmir.
3. When imams openly issue fatwa for beheading of a female author.
4. Haj pilgrims are given subsidy and Hindu pilgrims to Amarnath, Mansarovar etc are taxed.

Have you reserved all your venom and viciousness for hinduism? That's why all people are calling you Mr. Doublestandards. Yours is selective and prejudiced secularism.

Sujai DoubleStandard:

in comment #53 you profess

Secularism is keeping state separate from religion.


In comment #35 you bray

The notion that a government should not talk about religion is bull-shit argument.
The more we go away from that notion better it is for India.

Now i do have a reason to call you Mr. DoubleStandards ehh? [EDITED]


Do you think saying 'there is no evidence to prove existence of Rama' is mockery?

Try drawing the prophet for a change, or saying that the prophet married someone 6 years old and it was unscientific to do so. You wont walk the planet earth with your head or dick intact.

Talk about double standards :)

Sujai ,

what makes ginatic idiocity?

Destruction of our own culture under half cooked information of archeology that simply relies on findings of fossils of dead man while in our civilisation we burn our dead bodies and hence very little possibility of finding bones of older men as they went to ocean through rivers.

Archeologists and scientists are chaniging their timings of human existence every now and then and have not reached to a final comclusion till date?

You are proposing like we should burn our house only becasue our crooked neighbor told us to do by producunfg some half cooked facts about our own house.

Will it not be wise to investigate our house condition oursleves and then take decision.

Nobody is ideot in this world. It is simply state of mind or belief system that makes one idiot in others opinion.

Ancinet sanskrit literature is full of original knowledge but under inflrunec of western thought of before and christ (BC) and Afetr death (AD) we have closed our minds from it somehow.

Monkeys stayed on this earth 35 to 55 million years ago. in 1.7 miion years even man made structure will look like natural. And there is no technology available till date to predict decisively if a strcuture is man made or natural.

Then why are we adamant to destriy our heritage environment and natural protect against tsunamis only becayse western archeology says that there was no humans 200,000 years ago.

Just think.

hist:

Sujai DoubleStandard is missing the point the author of this article clearly makes, i.e. you either respect all religions or respect none. No wonder his last name is as such.

I am an atheistic agnostic person myself, i dont give a damn about monkey brigade or the ideology of the terrorist, I however fear for my life and i do believe that i need to defend it.

What irritates me is when such double standard clowns who bray secularism through there ass view the world in a colored lens and then proclaim that secularism is nothing other than belittling hinduism. Thats a fanatic right there, and a rabid one at that. He is the anti-hindu pseudo secularist, and should be burned at the stakes along with the monkey brigades, the terrorists and the commies.

People should either learn to respect all religions or none.

If Sujai DoubleStandard thinks that ASI deriding Hinduism is OK, then he should post a portrait of the prophet drawn by him and also post his address here. I suspect that he wont. Because ultimately he is scared of dying.. another proof that terrorism works.

Now the [EDITED] that he is he wont say anything against the muslims. Insulting hinduism is fine.. but somehow insulting islam is a BIG sin. Secularism is removing the state from the religion, and that can be done either by the state not caring about ANY religion or caring about EVERY religion.

[EDITED]

Awwww Sujai #32
So much water has passed under the bridge, since i made the comment #1 (pun intended)
Poor dear Sujai. So most people in this country lack vitamin S(Science) and thereby have the disease of "hurt our sentiments". Well sir, you know an overdose of the most basic variety of Vitamin S along with a delusional state of mind, causes some ill effects too. Whatever born with Quotient I (intelligence) was there, gradually gets wiped out. And continour vomitting out of Vitamin S in the most absurd of ways, is the best symptom the reduced quotient I.

As regards to Bay of Bengal being the sea that was churned, you know me and most others (humbly speaking on your behalf, respected ladies and gentlement)dont have much of vitamin S, so with our quotient I, we would like to have some good evidence (you know of the L(literary) variety and not just any ,but good authentic L variety), we might analyse it and if everything is all right, we might make more trips to Bay of Bengal and you know, you being good at spotting the material benefits and all and ecological damages, you could start cruise liners to go there and make a big buck out of it.
Go to the middle of the sea and even point to us, hey this is where amritham was found. and maybe sell us packaged water from the sea.
Yes we are that big in I(idiocy).
Sorry boss, dont insult our collective (intelligence). It hurts you know. Not me, but your own Intelligence.

Dear All,

This has been a roaring discussion. Thank you all for the multifaceted comments :-)

I would respectfully aver that Sujai digressed. He is entitled to his views which he would say are relevant to the subject. I however intend to recap what I mentioned since I believe the crux of my post should not be eclipsed by irrelevant digressions.

Here is what my post mentioned in a nutshell:

(i) India needs to invest in the Sethusamudram canal to project its naval power in the Indian Ocean, a region that is characterized by increased American and Chinese presence, not to mention Sri Lanka's drift into the American orbit with implications on India's defence.

(ii) The VHP was wrong to question the project.

(iii) The Archeological Commission of India (ASI), in turn, had no business in questioning the Ramayana's historicity or otherwise given the text's religious import.

(iv) No Indian Government body would, for example, dare attack a Muslim or Christian religious text even if a development project were at stake.

(v) The ASI should have confined its legal affidavit to the historicity or otherwise of the Sethusamudram alone, not broaden its critique to the Ramayana.

(vi) The Ramayana is a key Indic narrative that deeply influenced many lands beyond India's shore in classical times defining their literary, aesthetic and political traditions.

This is all that I mentioned in the post itself!

The Indian government hurriedly withdrew the controversial affidavit reconfirming the point I made above in bullet number 3.

------------

I need to perhaps add a point or two at this juncture.

Sujai is profoundly incorrect when he says:

"Sethusamudram is a coral which was never visited, prayed to, or considered religious till the government decided to dredge it".

My native village is on an island smack in the middle of the Sethusamudram. This marine zone was a center of trade and commerce in classical times sanctioned by religion. (7th century Mecca is another example of this link between commerce and religion). The temple of Rameshwaram on the Indian side and the classical temple of Tirukethiswaram on the Sri Lankan side of the Sethusamudram testify to the importance of these maritime straits traversed by ancient mariners from far away lands. One can refer to early and later Hellenic writings of the place.

Early Hindu temples often acted as bankers linked to trade. This explains the concomitant move of Hindu high tradition via the medium of commerce from India to early South East Asia. The legends of the Ramayana provided the ideological basis for this particular trade route!

It is interesting though that the Sethusamudram trade route traversed between the island of Mannar and the North Sri Lankan mainland, a part of the Tamil cultural realm in the early centuries of the common era. The main water way itself was too shallow for navigation then itself. It today has an average depth of just 6 feet.

A 1990 publication 'Sri Lanka and the Silk Route of the Sea' commissioned in part by UNESCO refers to the various studies on the subject.

Mantai or Mantotam in the Sri Lankan district of Mannar was an ancient port city with the temple of Tirukethiswaram as its defining landmark.

As I had mentioned in the post, 12th century Sinhalese inscriptions refer to the Sri Lankan king Nissanka Malla expanding the Rameshwaram temple. The Tamil kings of Jaffna between the 13th and 16th centuries called themselves the protectors of Sethu (or Sethu kavalar).

The Sethusamudram was therefore significant in history although it subsequently receded in importance with shifting trade routes. It intrigues me that the ASI made no mention of these historical facts but chose to critique the Ramayana alone! It clearly did not know its history!!

The VHP is clearly ignorant of a lot of things and should be lampooned. The Government meanwhile should continue with the project provided (a) rigorous environment due diligence is done and (b) some of the unique geological features of the causeway are protected by a slight realignment of the canal.

-------------

Let me make two more observations before I hopefully exit from the debate. Lakshmikant rightly pointed out the Danish cartoons were offensive to millions. Likewise flippant comments on Ramayana that appear to provoke rather than contribute to serious discussion should be avoided.

And I agree with Roger on the conceptual framework of the Kalpas and Yugas. He did not mention them with reference to the Sethusamudram -he only appeared to attack Sujai's flippant dismissal of the concepts. I have heard Carl Sagan speak of the Indic framework of cosmological time with deep intellectual curiousity.

Best regards @ the resplendent isle

The Sethusamudram Canal Project won't enhance India's security, but will instead damage it. The resulting shipping traffic across the Palk Straits would only be used by the anti-Indian LTTE in which to hide and undermine Indian national security.

Neither do the USA nor China have strong military power projection capability in this part of the world which lies far from their shores. However the canal shipping traffic would indeed afford them an avenue in which to gain entry and make mischief.

This canal must be stopped, or it will destroy India's security. As an ecological habitat it is priceless. Furthermore it forms a natural tsunami barrier to protect some vulnerable parts of the Indian coastline.

I had hoped to exit from the debate. But here am I making another comment :-)

I would not be surprised if the current alignment for the proposed Sethusamudram engineering project is a skewed. If possible, this should be rectified since the project is at an early stage.

This could be because of a mistake made by an earlier Indian Government in 1974 in transferring the rocky isle of Kachchativu to Sri Lanka. By doing so, India lost several miles of valuable sea to Sri Lanka limiting its dredging options.

Sri Lanka has today leased out a block of sea in the Sethusamudram for Chinese to explore for off- shore oil reserves. It is believed by some geologists, though by no means confirmed, that the pleistocene era Cauvery delta might have hydrocarbon reserves. Other scientiest, however, dispute this who instead argue that the hydrocarbon reserves are negligible.

I would question the current dimensions of the project since only an average depth of 30 feet is being considered. Post panamax vessels need a depth of 60 feet and the engineering design should be revisited - from an environmental, geological, historical, political and shipping perspective.

I am surprised at the paucity of discussion in Indian intellectual circles on the geopolitical dimensions of the project, of earlier mistakes and subsequent need to correct them.

India should definitely exert its presence in the region - through the proposed canal. The Ramayana legitimized trade in thos waters in previous centuries. And no Chinese exploration team should be allowed!!! This is India's backyard.

Jaffna: I have been following the debate from the sidelines. Thank you for stepping in again and put things in perspective. There has been a thread diversion thanks to Sujai's troll tactics. I am glad people have exposed his hypocrisy and hope it will shut him up.

More importantly, you make a very important point about the loss of Kachaitheevu to Sri Lanka. The government erred back then in doing so. Here in Tamil Nadu, Jayalalitha keeps raising this issue from time to time, from the point of view of fishermen's security. Karunanidhi is even worse, he even stopped the crocodile tears he used to shed for the Tamils in Sri Lanka.

Otherwise, no one in India ever discusses the historic and geo-political importance of this place. Indeed it is India's backyard and it is a slap in the face when the Rajapakse government let in the Chinese.

One commenter mentioned that US Navy and Chinese Navy won't venture here. I am surprised and saddened at the lack of awareness by Indians. Both of then always had an eye at the Eastern Sri Lanka and especially the port of Trinco. They are actively making inroads - a fact ignore by people and the current government.

best,

Ramar bridge: the Homo Erectus bridge
Here, let me put this hypothesis forward, and let our friends argue against/for it.
Hanuman and his army were Homo Erectus who helped Rama to build a bridge on the top of the shallow coral ridge that joins Indian mainland to Sri Lanka.
I make this argument on the basis that Homo Erectus were intelligent and they discovered Fire! They migrated as far as to Australia, and Java man of Indonesia was a million year old. So, it is not surprising for a Homo Erectus civilization to stretch from Africa to Indonesia!
It is time for us to pay more attention to early civilization....more we know about our ancestor Homo Erectus, more we will know about ourselves. A good example is Hanuman: more we know and respect his wisdom and determination more we will be successful in our live.

Strategy and Indian Govt donot go together. They never did. Everything is reactive and nothing is seen with self-interest. Most of our leaders lack the ability to think through and their 'expert' advisers are always lost in their agendas.

rgds

## Sujai.
I better suggest you and other in this forum to read more about Homo Erectus: we have strong evidence of fossil more than 1.6 million years old. Read about
The Turkana 'Boy', KHM-WT 15000
KNM- ER 3733
Java and Peking Homo erectus fossils.

And, no matter we fight here in this forum about Vitamin S....ASI and Indian Historians are anything but scientific organisations. They are politician. So, they will always switch side: one day Ram does not exist, and other day Ram exist....they twist things according to their choice.

#68, Bikram:
We are aware of Homo erectus, Homo Habilis, and other series. But they are not Humans!

Is Rama human or not?

#57, hist:
Check on my blogs. You will find some articles on some of the topics which you mentioned. I am not here to defend my credentials. I am here to discuss an issue! You guys seem to be obsessed in slandering the author instead of his argument. Happens all the time!

Your analysis is most interesting. Adding to that, the ASI has done little analysis on several sites that warrant them. This includes sites of Ancient Temples, Palaces and Lost Cities which foreign archaeological students have helped shed light on. Their dismissal not only hurts the sentiments of everyone, but shows us how ASI is acting not in the interest of Science but in the interest of a political action.

Thank you for your interest and passion about this thing. Homo Erectus, and all those are name given to different tribes of ancient pre-human. Most likely they co-existed with Human...I mean Homo Sapiens, and intermarry as well, as you know Hanuman was a cross breed between human and ape (vanar). We are waiting for the genomic profile of Homo Erectus...let see how close we were to them. Overall, we are just touching on to the subject of our ancestor, so we should expect big surprises....that we human being may be much older than couple of hundred thousand years. new technology will help us to learn more. Until then we should protect all the indigenous believe sites. Good news is that recently UN has passed the resolution to protect the indigenous culture. Hinduism is the most ancient indigenous culture, and Indian goverment should not ridicule the culture. Hindus claim that Rama and Vanar sena build the bridge. We do not have enough material to disproof them. Hindus claim that one day of Brahma is equal to several billion years, and there are other believe on time scale which were thought to be absurd fantasy just 200 years ago. British thought that world is only 6000 years old, and earth is flat. Now we know it is not. Hindus were better than British in the time scale calculation. Now Hindus are saying that Ramayana happened 1.6 million years ago. It sound absurd, and nonsense. But you never know. So, a re