Desicritics Author: Anand S

Meet Indicast: A New Breed of Indian Podcasters

Anand S — Thu, 8 Feb 2007 04:05:28 EST

As a member of Startups India, I recently caught up with Aditya and Abhishek who run one of India's earliest podcasts, Indicast. Aditya is an MIS from Carnegie Mellon and Abhishek is an MBA from Wellingkar. The interview turned out to be an hour's chat on all issues regarding their podcasting, which they have now taken to doing full time. Here is the entire transcript.

Anand - You've mentioned that Indicast is an Indian Podcast where topics are discussed from an average person's point of view. But for the benefit of our readers could you please elaborate a bit more?

Abishek- He (Aditya) was closer to technology than I was. He was in the US back then, and in October 2005, iTunes had released and the podcasting culture had started picking up there. So he asked me, why don't we start an Indian podcast where we talk about stuff which Indians abroad would like to listen about in India? In a way, that is not really a news-reader kind of format. We'll talk as if we talk in, say a college canteen or after a game of cricket, where we hang around and discuss on, say, why Ganguly should be dropped. And let's build in some emotions in it.

Anand - So, it's basically for NRIs?

Abishek - The idea was that NRIs would listen to it, anyways. Let's see how it is taken back by those in India, because in India podcasting was not even a month old. It was a month old elsewhere in the world, and anything that happens in the US takes at least a year to start off in India. So, that was the idea. We'll talk like how we are talking right now.

Aditya - The other benefit is that listeners can relate to it much more than, you know, a niche channel. So, we wanted them to feel as if they are sitting very close to us and listening directly rather than a radio voice.

Abishek - Normally, we are not in the same room when the recording takes place. We only know that we are going to talk about these five topics; he will research on his own, so will I; so it is not rehearsed and is very impromptu. Sometimes, we ask each others questions, which we will not have the answers out there as a script. So it is as improvised as it can get. And there is no sense of retakes and is very natural.

Aditya - For the things that we don't know, we put it up for the listeners for them to comment on that. They send us links and stuff which go in the comments section.

Anand - So, it's kind of a Web 2.0 for Podcasts?

Aditya - Yeah, definitely. It is a lot more Web 2.0 than any of the other podcasts. There are a lot of podcasts in the US where they have people calling in and we are planning something like that. We haven't yet finalized it. But, in the Indian space, we are the first ones.

Anand - So, when and how did you come across this idea?

Aditya - As he said, it was in September-October 2005, when iTunes was released.

Abishek - In fact, we had been dabbling with blogging for a while, for something like 3 or 4 months. It was a group blog; three of us were doing it. We used to get a few comments here and there. Then we decided that let us do a podcast instead of a blog.

Aditya - For me it was boring.

Abishek - It didn't come very naturally, because for blogs, you have to catch someone's attention, you have to be a very good writer, and so it doesn't come very naturally. Talking does, because we are MBAs (laughs).

Aditya - So, that's why we decided on doing a podcast. Plus, no one else was podcasting. Probably a lot of Indians were blogging. So, that was the reason. We started it in October 2005; the first episode.

Anand - How do you obtain the content? How do you ensure you do not miss out something important?

Aditya - Well, our content basically comes from newspapers, magazines we read here and there, websites, blog posts, and personal experiences. Personal experiences are a big hit on our podcasts. His experience about his travel in train during Ganpathi season was amazing. And you won't find that kind of information anywhere in the traditional medium, or in the newspaper. And people love that part. We put up info from here and there; from streets on how they are campaigning, etc. You know they are using small kids to do campaigning. Those things you will never get in any of the articles.

Abishek - We are opinionated, but we also make sure that we are backed by a fact. If we have a source, which we always have, we link it; and if we do not, then we say that these are our opinions.

Aditya - If you go through the site, it clearly says that we are not experts. We don't know everything out there, and so it is from a layman's point of view. And well, we sometimes do miss out on something important, but then, most of the times we don't because, if we see something's interesting, then we see that it is interesting for our listeners as well. If we do miss out something, then people usually send out links (of what we missed). We pick it up from their end. If it requires a longish sort of a discussion, then we go into the depths.

Anand - How well is it being received? Could you give us insight into the demographics? Any significant achievements?

Aditya - Very well so far. In the second week itself, we were on iTunes 'New and Notable podcasts'; Number 1 there for two weeks. Then, we've got a lot of press coverage, mainly because it is a new thing. From a user point of view, over a period of a podcast; an episode, we get about 4000 downloads over a year. That's the estimate because we didn't care to track it when we were doing it just as a hobby, and we only started it something like six months down the lane. And based on the aggregated figures, we are estimating it to have been downloaded 4000 times. And, we have 40 such episodes. We just released the 41st last night. So, this simple math gives us a decent number. So, it is being well received. But the sad part is that most of our listeners come from outside India, because of restrictions like blocking of sites, etc, where our core audience is; MBA students. That's one part, and another thing is that most of them don't know what a podcast is. They know about blogging, but not about podcasts. I guess they visit our sites, but we don't have as many downloads. So, what we think is that people go to our website but do not know what to do after that. That's one point. But all the media thing that is happening, it is helping to spread the word.

Demographics; it's 18-35 age-wise, educated obviously, most of them outside India, majority coming from the US - 50%, then UK, Canada, Switzerland, Japan. Japan was surprising. All these countries are where India has its export hub, according to the Tata Statistical Outline. So our listener base matches with these countries. Next thing is that most of them are techies, who know what a podcasting is. These guys listen to us on their commute, because they have this portable MP3 player, download it from iTunes or from the website, and store it in their iPods, and listen to them while going to office. Most of them are earning members, which is very important and which is the crux of our business plan.

Anand - How does that relate to your business plan?

Aditya - Because, later on, we plan to do a few community based things, where we can monetize this. For example, we could have an ecommerce store; here if you have a community which will have the paying capacity, it (these people as members) will be much more useful than a person chatting from a cyber-cafe. So, those guys exactly fall into that category, and them being techies, they will know that online transactions are secure, etc.

Anand - Any significant achievements?

Abishek - Yeah, like he mentioned, Outlook had a story on podcasting where we were featured, and then BBC Radio was a surprise thing. That was basically about how podcasting is coming up in India. So, they wanted to interview us from Indiacast. And then, we had one on Mid-Day. It was almost one year after we started.

Aditya - That, and being on NDTV was huge. They did a four minute story on podcasting. They highlighted us quite a lot. Plus, we estimate at least 90,000 downloads that we have had. And we are pretty much sure that it is much more than that because half of the time, we have not been tracking it. So, we are pretty much sure that we have hit the 1 lakh download mark. And that's without any marketing thing; just based on word-of-mouth. And this, I think is a big deal, and a pretty significant achievement from a statistical point of view.

Anand - Well, could you tell us more about yourselves, your positions and other stakeholders. What did you guys do before and your work experiences?

Abishek - I was working with Godrej after my MBA. And we started this after I was a few months into my job. He was in the US, working with Pitney Bowes after his Carnegie Mellon MIS, and then he came back here to start his own company, that he had already started in the US. And he said, 'Why don't you join me?', and that's how I hopped on to his boat. Later, Indicast, in itself started to make some business sense. That's when we got serious about it and putting the numbers on the paper, and started to pitch in for a few angel investors.

Aditya - We got an opportunity at the TIE summit. Recently they held a conference in Mumbai and they asked us to present our case for Indicast. There we got a few people who wanted to talk to us after that, which is still going on. So, as of now, we are the only two key players and stakeholders. Position-wise, I am more towards the technology part, and the co-host. He is more towards the statistical part, the content, making sure that what we are talking is not crap, and we have actual things to support it. He also takes care of what the users want to see, the comments, etc. But, that does not mean it is his domain. I'll have to contribute as well. He will keep telling me things to add from a technology point of view; he does things like creating episode notes.

Anand - How is your start up being funded so far?

Abishek - In two words, ours is self-funded. There is no external funding. But then, yes we do seek external funding.

Aditya - Yes. For now, we have been using all open source technologies. Except for the website, all the audio, video; everything is hosted on an open-source media called the RMedia.org. Also, bandwidth is a big issue here, since we would exceed our bandwidth if hosted from our side. But, it is all copyrighted still. But, yes, we do seek external funding. We have been working quite hard on that. We are not looking for a big amount, just decent enough. We want to keep it low, and we want to see it in a start up mode, because it is much more fun being here. That being said, most of the funding will be towards getting good people on. The crux is getting good content. If we fail on that, we lose everything. We want to make sure that we get good guys on.

Abishek - Basically, this is because we have different themes in mind. Indicast is just a pioneer, the first one. We need to have different themes, and hosts for these different ones, for which we need to get new people, and for which we need money. We still intend to keep working on open source where we don't need to buy software, but we cannot substitute good people and good content.

Aditya - We have different ideas, but we haven't decided on anything yet. What we just had in mind was, we are a podcasting company, and we are looking for funding, right? So, why don't we make our business plan as a podcast and put it out there on the net. Let people download it. Plus, we don't see it as an issue that people might then be able to replicate our model.

Anand - A few of our readers indicated interest in learning how to go about taking an idea from concept to inception. So, could you please share with us your experiences. For example, did you encounter any initial hiccups while pitching the idea? Could you please explain the process you followed that might help other future entrepreneurs planning to startup?

Aditya - What I would say is, first start doing it. Don't just sit there and say that I have this brilliant idea, but I need funding. Most of the start ups (on the tech side) don't need funding to get started. Within a couple of months, you will come to know whether it is going anywhere or not. If it is going somewhere, then start writing a business plan. We wrote a business plan a year down the line. So, the idea is to start doing it. Because you might waste two months in writing a business plan, when you can actually put that two months into getting that thing up. Get into building it over weekend or when you have time. If you are excited about the plan long enough, then you will obviously take it long. We get this question from many people, and most of it from MBAs who are already earning 40-50 thousand a month. So, what more do you need to get it started. It is a different case in a manufacturing setup where you need money upfront.

Anand - What are the key technologies Indicast is built upon and why did you opt for them?

Aditya - Firstly, Podcasting is not a technology driven industry. It is driven by content. We have been using open source technology, but for a year, we had hosted it on a blog website, Blogsome.com. We were just linking to an MP3 file from the blog which can be done very easily. We hosted the MP3 file on Ourmedia.org. It's free. So, from technology point, it is not a big deal. So, from a creativity point, how you create the podcast. It is about how the hosts talk about things, etc. So, talking about technology, it is not any sort of an 'entry barrier' in podcasting.

Abishek - Yeah, anyone with a mic, a laptop, and an internet connection can get a podcast up. But, you need to know which are the open source technologies. You need to know what to use, like, he knew that we could use blogsome for a year. Just making use of your mind there.

Aditya - Also, ask podcasters out there (on the internet) about how to do, and they will be more than happy to help you out. A simple Google search will tell you how to do a podcast. But, if you think that you can present content very well, then you are in, otherwise not.

Abishek - Again, content alone might not help. People might not want to listen to you, if the content is delivered in a bland way. So, content mixed with humor, or street-smartness, or any other USP you have is very important.

Aditya - So, coming back to the question, use any blogging platform. For recording, you can use the built-in windows audio recorder to start with, and use an MP3 encoder to convert it into MP3. Or, you can use Audio-hijack PRO. It is an open source software, which can be easily downloaded.

Anand - Ok, Where do you plan to take Indicast going forward? Is news podcasting really exploding?

Aditya - The main goal right now is an episode a day. Indicast shall remain a weekly show. But we shall put up different shows every day. Over that, we want to create a Friends sort of sitcom or something. And, make it available through the internet; completely bypass the broadcasting network. So, instead of it being available on Sony every Thursday at 9:00 or something, it will be released over the internet every Thursday at 9:00. And it is available for you whenever you want to download. Again, everyone is talking about Video over Internet. There is a new thing called Joost, which is done by the Skype founder, which is exactly we are saying. We want to create that kind of a thing. So, if the Skype founder and we are thinking the same thing, we are on the right track. I think it will click, because nobody has the time to watch TV these days.

Abishek - Also, what is generally perceived is that people might not download a video from internet, from an Indian perspective because broadband has still not penetrated to a great extent. But our research on Alexa.com shows that YouTube is the 13th most visited site in India, and Raaga.com, an online music streaming website is the 15th most visited site. So, if these sites are there in the top 20 in our ever-growing Indian internet population, there is a huge market potential. So, we should not be under-estimating that. So, that's the argument against this being a high bandwidth application which might not work in India.

Anand - So, What is your business/revenue model? Any exit strategy on mind?

Aditya - Going straightforward, it is going to be primarily ad-based. So, we are in the process of doing a couple of ad-inserts inside the episodes; however not more than ten seconds. We also plan to give out a coupon code or something, which the Indicast listener can use to purchase at a discount. We are looking at ways we can convert ad into information. Coupon code is one idea. Also, we plan to open an ecommerce store where we could sell things which we review in our podcasts. Exit strategy - We have nothing on our mind as yet. We have just started, and so do not want to think of the exit. I don't think there would be anything like an IPO or something, but yeah, I can see a buyout on the cards by say, a Sony or a MTV because we have the content, as well as a user base; an international user base at that.

Abishek - You insist on asking for one, and so we have just come up with one. We have just started it, and so don't want to worry about it. Let us think over it when we get there.

Anand - OK, so what are some of the challenges in news podcasting and how do you plan on tackling them?

Aditya - The main challenge is - how do you go about keeping the content interesting and hold their attention for twenty minutes. We are now doing it with one podcast. When we move to several shows, we will have to keep trying to keep the content fresh.That apart, I think spreading the word has been a big problem to us. A lot many people in India do not know about podcasting, and you can only do so much through word of mouth. So, that has been one another challenge to us.

Anand - Getting, more general, What is your take on increasing number of start ups in India?

Aditya - It's good to see a lot many startups in India, but it should be interesting to see in which areas these startups come up.

Abishek - For example, there are quite a few social networking sites that have come up, some from Indians. But it is not possible for the same person to be part of all these sites. So, the number of start ups increasing is fine, but how many of them really make sense is vital. I would want to see the number of unique ideas coming up rather than simply the number of start ups.

Anand - Which websites/Magazines do you visit often?

Abishek - I like The Economist. It has a very elitist appeal, but they talk about stories in a way that a normal man would do, and they have real juicy content in it. And Google, for everything else.

Aditya - I am not a big reader, and anything over a hundred words and I am lost. So, TechCrunch is good because it is how I read. And then, I listen to a lot of podcasts, because it is easier for me, and I don't need to read. Like, 'This Week in Tech', Diggnation, and then a few RSS feeds from here and there.

Anand - How did being an entrepreneur affect your lifestyle? Do you get enough time for yourself/family?

Aditya - It takes a different kind of a person to be an entrepreneur. Everyone aspires to be one, but not everyone is ready for one. At the start, you've got to do everything; things which everyone might not want to do it. So, that is a lifestyle change.

Abishek - In a company, processes are defined; if I may borrow an MBA jargon, but here it is only you. You define the process, but that's the fun part. Lifestyle-wise, you are more to yourself, because you are only doing what you like. You have chosen to do that, you were not forced into this.

Aditya - You might not get enough time for yourself, until you settle with the work. There is nothing like a work schedule.

Abishek - We have recorded shows at 3:00 in the morning, when he was in New York. It basically requires you to come out of your comfort zones, and family life.

Anand - Ok guys, it was fun talking to you both. All the best for Indicast

Aditya and Abhishek - Thanks.

Yahoo Switches To New Panama Search Engine Model

Anand S — Wed, 7 Feb 2007 06:32:33 EST

In a significant move in the advertising segment of the Search Engine industry, Yahoo has announced that it is now completely doing away with the bid-to-position model of ads to give way for a more democratic "Marketplace Design" model, more similar to Google Adwords. It is a mixed signal of things to come, and as I shall opine here, might require that Yahoo now start marketing its Search Engine better if they want to continue to sustain their model.

What's the difference?:

In the bid-to-position model, the ads alongside search results are based on an auction system where the advertiser who bids more for the spot gets to bag the spot. In effect, it did not consider the relevance of the search keyword to the ads too much. This model was based on the presumption that though this system fetches fewer clicks on ads than the Google Adwords model, the revenue generated would be higher considering that Yahoo generates more money per click.

Where Yahoo is missing out:

There are a couple of things that I feel Yahoo is missing out. First is advertiser competitiveness. If you look at the Search Engine market share, Google has a huge market share compared to any of the other search engines. For Yahoo, their business model made sense because they focused more on the bid amount (and not on the keyword relevance which is important for higher click-through rates), so that they could discount the fact that Google has a higher market share.

Now with the Panama model, things shall not remain as it is now. The model being closer to Google Adwords, we can safely assume that the ad Click-through rates are similar to what exists for Google (that's roughly 1-2%). Now, that being the same, Yahoo lags behind Google on two fronts: (1) The number of searches made, and (2) The amount bid for a click. Owing to the fact that Yahoo advertisers are catering to a smaller audience than those for Google, this would mean that the newer model has pretty much sealed the leader position in the race between Google and Yahoo with respect to the revenue garnered from the search engine segment.

There is one more aspect to it. Yahoo's Panama model, in my opinion has one basic flaw. I could explain it better with the following quote,

Historical click through rates (CTRs) are one part of how ad quality scores are determined. To get this information, Yahoo will pull data (relative to other ads displayed at the same time) from both the old system and the new Panama system. The new ranking algorithm emphasizes data "freshness" and will use the most current information available.

One parameter of the Panama model is the historical click-through rate. What is surprising is that Yahoo will weigh the ad quality based on the CTRs that the particular ad had garnered through a combination of both the old and new system. The question is why should it take into account the old system? As we know, the old system had one ad unfairly placed over the other owing to the bid amount. This meant that those ads at the top of the table in the old system would have had an unfair advantage of being clicked more than the ones at the bottom. That means their CTRs were higher. If you take this CTR as one of the parameter in the new system, then it would mean that those advertisers who had bid more in the old system will still gain an advantage in the new system. This, in effect would cause their CTR in the new model also to be higher, thus biasing the whole model. It is simply a cascading effect in place.

What it means for the advertisers:

Advertisers should in general be happy about the change. Because now it is more about keyword relevance and less about money power. They can now expect many more clicks on their ads, much more targeted ones at that, which in general should help them in increasing the conversion ratio of customers over mere curious visitors. But then, with minor flaws as I have already mentioned regarding the historical CTR parameter, the model would still help the top bidders of the previous model extend their lead.

But one persisting question is, Why should advertisers remain with Yahoo in the first place? In the previous model one can expect advertisers with not so relevant products, but still enough money to get a return through bidding higher to be interested in the program. But now with Yahoo's model resembling Adwords more or less, why should advertisers come to Yahoo? With a larger search base, they can expect to get many more customers from an ad on Google than on Yahoo. It is still a debatable question, which can only answered over a period of time.

The She(I)tty Times of India

Anand S — Sun, 21 Jan 2007 10:18:22 EST

Okay, Shilpa Shetty at the Big Brother show in UK has been causing quite a stir over the supposedly racist comments by her co-participants. But is it the only thing that happened this week? I read only the Times of India, and sadly think so.

The Sunday Times center page is replete with articles by eminent journalists on matters of varying interests. The TOI, has however been more notorious for being a 'Masala' Times because of the unproportionate weightage it gives to the reel life.

So, today's center page has six articles. The first one is from the very eminent Shobha De. She talks about hypocritical Indians who are so quick to claim that whites are racist when each one of them themselves is no better. All this in light of the Shilpa Shetty issue. Yep, true.

The second article is from CP Surendran, who asks readers not to give in to the sensitive Shilpa Shetty issue, since it is a publicity stunt. Yep, true.

The third one is from Bachi Karkaria and she asks the same question that Shobha De had already posed. And you know my reply to that.

The next one from Chidananad Rajghatta who, in the light of the racism controversy of the Big Brother show guesstimates how long it will be before racism stops. Hmmm, even I wonder till when.

Only Jug Suraiya talks on real estates, and Swaminathan Aiyar on Inflation. Swaminathan, the poor chap must not have found one angle how he could link the Shilpa Shetty issue to the Indian economy. So, he thought, 'Ok, let me write about this inflation thing that came in that small box in TOI yesterday...'. Oh yes, I understand that.

So., with four out of six articles on Shilpa Shetty, and couple of more about the same issue on the front page as well as somewhere in the middle, India is definitely worried about what's going to happen next at the Celebrity Big Brother.

Bachi Karkaria makes a punch statement with her article title which reads, "Is there life after Celebrity Big Brother". Sadly for you madam, it is for your own newspaper to realize that. The rest of us know it since ever.

Indo-Pak Relations: Fear of the Unknown

Anand S — Wed, 3 Jan 2007 15:08:55 EST

Sometime back, I was talking to one of my close friends in the US. The talk was about food, adjusting to the American life, finding friends, etc. This is where we hit upon the topic of Pakistan. Finding friends could be sometimes tricky, and with the tiny Asian population there, my friend said, Indians and Pakistanis lived like people from one nation.

Now, that was, for a moment, intriguing. I too have seen Pakistanis once. At the Wagah border. I was on the Indian side, with my friends. And there, on the opposite side, were the Pakistani bunch, who, I could clearly make out from the distance, were clearly hell bent on hating us. How else could I interpret their vociferous slogan shouting from their side. We were not giving up easily either. And, here, we Indians overpowered the Pakistanis in the throat-war.

Now, when my friend was talking about befriending Pakistanis, it was intriguing because, I would personally not want to befriend them, since they clearly looked like warmongers.

Okay, this has all been quite sometime back. Now, with over a year on the India-Pakistan Friendship Club, one of Orkut's biggest and most talked about communities, all the perception has changed. Because now, I have not only met Pakistanis, but also moved much beyond and talked to them on issues, sensitive ones, which even our governments on either side have been hesitating to talk on for a long long while now.

I cannot answer if I have been able to reach a consensus on the Kashmir issue or any of the other big ones, which have been plaguing the relations between India and Pakistan for over sixty years. But, talking to the Pakistanis has taught me one thing. And that is the impact the 'fear of the unknown' can have upon you. It is this fear that made me apprehensive about the bunch of Pakistani boys who were vociferously chanting Pakistani slogans at the Wagah border. It is probably the very same fear about the Indian side, which made them do the throat-war. Or probably, it was we people on this side, who started it the other day. Maybe all of us waving hands to the people on the other side would have made it a great experience of friendship that day. I cannot say.

But, it probably is true. The Pakistani, my friend befriended, was probably just one amongst those bunch I met at the Wagah border. Isn't it intriguing that the same person can appear to be of two contrasting personalities when viewed from a distance and when introduced as a friend?

That is the difference between knowing the person and not knowing him. And that, exactly is the root cause for all the issues that exist between us two nations. While I may sound too simplistic about resolving sensitive issues which now have started to take four dimensions - that of India, Pakistan, Kashmiris and the unwanted dimension of terrorists, this definitely is the beginning; it is very much necessary to befriend a 'somebody' from across the border.

Because, it is this 'somebody' who can make you get less apprehensive about the other side of the table. It is this somebody you shall remember when your compatriots accuse the enemy of deaths on your soil.

When everyone in our countries befriends a person on the other side, there is hope. There is a hope since you are talking issues with after all your 'brother'. There is a hope for a give and take. And there is also hope that the terrorists give up their profession feeling hopeless.

So, if you are a person, who has all along felt betrayed by the people on the other side, try befriending one from there for a change. As I said before, I do not have an answer for the end of conflicts. But I am perfectly convinced that if at all there exists an end to it, this is definitely the way to begin.