Unique Identification Number: The Politics of Privacy and Information

Sridar,
A well researched, well phrased, well nuanced and ill concieved article. No concept has only good and no evils attached to it. As you have tried to point out no fool will administer a dose of syphillis to cure malaria.

Interestingly, Penicillin a cure for syphillis has a worst side effect of anaphylactic shock to certain individuals. I remember leftists were agitating in 90's against compterisation in railways, attributing job losses. I dread to imagine a railway reservation without computerisation.

Like every medicine has side effects and contra indications, every technology has its darker side. It is wiser to remove the risks associated with technology, than refusing to accept the technology.

Finally, though out of place, Human rights are only for humans not for animals under garb of terrorists.

Somehow India has developed a knack for adopting the worst traits of developed nations while at the same time ignoring the good aspects.

Sridhar

Suresh's opening sentence beautifully captures what's wrong with your article ..'ill conceived' and perhaps lopsided as well.

You say "There are other questions about the propriety of having Mr Nilekani as the head of the project when there appears to be conflict of interest especially when Infosys could be one of the beneficiaries of public money."

Who should the government have appointed? A lawyer!

If it wasn't Nandan, it would have been someone equally reputed in Information Technology and Management. Thankfully they did not appoint a Civil Servant or a University Professor looking for a posting in Delhi before retiring.

"The beneficiaries of the massive 3000 crores bonanza would be IT companies such as TCS, Infosys and Wipro who are facing challenging times as large part of their clientele come from the developed economy facing recession"

Ok, then lets call the Chinese to do it... that would be awesome for India and its economy.

Your whole post seems suspicious ...

- You have attacked the concept without going into its need / benefits
- You have attached the implementors (Nandan and team) thus trying to create doubt about the intentions and outcome
- You have made facetious arguments and provided data to justify these

In your words "There are other questions about the propriety of a lawyer writing such an article since the primary benefeciaries of killing the UID are the corrupt bureuacrats, politicians, and criminals of all types who benefit through forgery, impersonation, falsification of records and other illegal means at the expense of honest tax payers of this country"

God save India!

AJ

Sridhar- an interesting article. However, I think you can go easy with the doomsday predictions. US has always been very touchy about personal information. In India, we offer it openly to everyone and anyone who is ready to listen. Here, telephone numbers are not listed, in India a stranger will give you his number on the train! Here, medical information is "private", it is very common for a co traveller on a train to give you a blow by blow account of every health issue he or she has ever had. Add to this their birth day, their brth star, prospective "marriageable age" daughter or son- and we will have every piece of private information.

I say safety in numbers. With a billion plus people given a UID, which needle am I looking for in the haystack? If I find my own, I will be happy! As for terrorism, I think this is a great step in the right direction to counter terrorism. I am even willing to get an RFID tag which sends my geo coordinates to a satellite overhead if I do disappear. Oh, I hope every politician who has to open a Swiss Bank account is asked for his UID to make sure the Indian people can get the amount back. I think this will reduce corruption too in the long run- just as computerization of Train tickets made getting tickets easier without having to bribe.

Comments on the article show a naive belief in the hard sell that ID cards could protect us from terrorists. It is extremely foolish that ID cards can foil terrorism because serious acts of terrorism are handiwork of foreign Intelligence agencies that spend billions of dollars in breaking security measures.

Take the instance of Dubai passport murder, which indicated the work of Mossad that was accused of faking 12 British passports using ‘a very sophisticated operation, in which high-quality forgeries were made, the government judges it is highly likely that the forgeries were made by a state intelligence service’ Another point is that the murder/assassination took place in Dubai which has the state of art technology to foil such attempts. Thus it is within the means of Intelligence agencies to crack any security measure. Or have we forgotten the double agent Headely who is accused of working for CIA and Islamic terror organization. The fact that he could move with impunity in India and Pakistan indicates the hand of Foreign Intelligence agencies.

So what is the purpose of the not so smart cards except in targeting soft targets like political opponents within the state?

The diversion of 3000 crores from development activity to spurious tech-fix funding caters to the mind set of mental retards who fancy AK-47 as a answer to all the problems of security.

As the corporate bigwigs go laughing to the bank, the silly middle class would be bleating like sheep with a bio-metric ID card firmly embedded in their rear end.

Aj

Why are you so soft on corporate conflict of interest? Even tweeter Shashi Tharoor was axed on the grounds of impropriety.

Should we lower the standards for corporate honchos who come from IT industry?

In the judiciary a judge having interest or shares in a corporation has to excuse himself if that corporation is a party to a case before him.

Luddite #5,
I wish our govt agencies were as efficient as Mossad; what has happened in Dubai was murder and not terrorism. Only difference is it was executed by a Government agency.
The same government agency Mossad had rescued so many innocent air passengers detained as hostages from Entebbe airport (Uganda).
Intelligence agencies are dirty even without UID cards and the question is whether UID is going to be useful or not. It is.

Luddite

A perceived conflict of interest should not be used to tarnish the project or its implementors ...

Just because Nandan was the head of Infosys does not automatically mean there is a conflict of interest. I am sure the author of this post understands this better than most of us.

while you have quoted examples that are not good ...picking from your example ... if Nandan excuses himself from judging/awarding the contracts (assuming Infosys is involved) would take care of this issue ...appointing someone less competent/unsuited for the job is not the solution neither is questioning the motives of the government

The manner in which the UID project is being attacked smells of lobbyist and vested interest ... it does not look like a debate in the best of interests of our country.

AJ

Luddite:

""The diversion of 3000 crores from development activity to spurious tech-fix funding caters to the mind set of mental retards who fancy AK-47 as a answer to all the problems of security.

As the corporate bigwigs go laughing to the bank, the silly middle class would be bleating like sheep with a bio-metric ID card firmly embedded in their rear end."

commonsense stands up and applauds loudly! the substance and the punchy writing style! images of bleating sheep with biometric cards firmly up their asses, stick!

Suresh Naig,

you are so subtle! killing someone in a foreign country using forged passports by Mossad is murder but not terrorism.Will two dead make it to the ranks of terrorism?

Mossad tactics are followed in Gujarat...files involving senior police officers in encounter killings are piling up. Should cheer you up a bit.

Aj,
'A perceived conflict of interest should not be used to tarnish the project or its implementors'

It would be a scandal in a society governed by laws. If a person has a cabinet position with interest in a company which is one of the beneficiaries of a public funded scheme. Further if the person is the head of that public funded scheme you have a full blown conflict of interest.Public offices should not be tainted with the nexus of private profits. That is the law in every democratic government. The law makes no exception for IT people.

"If a person has a cabinet position with interest in a company which is one of the beneficiaries of a public funded scheme."

You're referring to the IPL, I presume?:)

#12

If Nandan has a rank of a cabinet minister for the identification project and appointed to head the public funded project you have a messy conflict of interest. Mere resignation from Infosys will not suffice. The info given in newspaper says that he has shareholding worth 3500 crores.

If Infosys gets the revenue slice of the project cake worth 3000 crores(initial outlay)you have serious allegation of public office being used to garner private profits.

i am not aware of any questions being asked in the media or on the floor of the parliament.

Luddite,

don't give up...continue with your sane arguments, despite the fact that people will believe literally anything - such as the fairy-tale that biometric chips and ID's will take care of...pretty much everything...

Luddite #10,

Hope you know who was killed by Mossad in Dubai, intelligently. Certainly not an innocent like you and me.

#15 Suresh,
connect the dots of your posts--- killing opponents on foreign soil with forged passports is fine provided it is intelligently done and happens to bad guys...encounter killings are ok if professionally executed..

If the dots are connected you seem to be supporting a fascist regime- a paradise where there are no human rights and where the state can endlessly data mine all your personal data without your knowledge.

In such a paradise do you think your innocence would protect you?

A well expressed sentiment. However, in India's context, what the ID card will do is give an identity to the hundreds of millions who have so far been unrecognized by society and the government. Privacy concerns are indeed valid, but in this case I believe the benefits far outweigh the negatives.

In India people living in the urban area have multiple cards provided by multiple agencies. for instance PAN Card by Income Tax Department. Election ID Card by the Local Government as approved by the Government. Smart Card or the Driving Licence person owning a transport personal vehicle; Credit Cards from number of agencies where the person has subscribed for a credit card. Besides the employer also provides a swipe Card of identification. Over and above a Ration Card, Pass Port and more. A person have more than enough numbers of identification and this UNIC ID is not going to solve any purpose save for Government spending Rs.3000 Crores to meet the expenditure.

The expenditure of Rs.3000 Crore by the Government will benefit the IT companies and the Indian Poor would foot the bill so that the IT companies could go laughing happily to the bank.

The media and the people should demand that enough is enough do not spend the money on such fancy project but meet the requirement of the Farmers who are continuing to commit suicide for want of financial help from the Government.

In a country where there is one hospital bed for 12000 people and no health care centre why even no crap facilities for more 50% of the population, is it justifiable to spend for a UNIC ID Card Rs.3000 crore merely to employ a handful IT professionals and mainly Infosys.

It is like overfeeding the overfed. Moreover the IT companies is a just colonial outpost with 76 paise in a Rupee earned goes to Foreign corporations and a pittance of 24 paise to the Indian companies. Digest this fact. Out of the 24 paise earned in India approximately 84% goes to the pockets of the Principal Promoters who also hold highly paid positions of the Company.

The crumps from the table fall to the account of cyber coolies by way of wages and sodoxo coupons. Their unsustainable financial life is briefly rescued by credit only to be drowned by unsustainable debts by the age of 40.

Somewhere at the back of my mind, there is a small voice saying - 'They may have got it wrong but their intentions are good' ... the voice gets fainter and fainter as I read through coolguy's latest post and the 84% statistic ... oh suddenly i can't hear it at all ... all that I hear is a loud cacophony of braying like sounds ...i have visions of riding a Tri-Colored wagon on its way to hell steered masterfully by the you-know-who...we pass through a dark tunnel with side-walls illuminated like LED screens on the PATH tunnel, scenes out of Atlas Shrugged seem to be playing on the wall...strangely the actors are not white but brown and dark ...attacking in the name of law ...killing tiny green shoots of hope ...nipping in bud anything that looks like their sworn enemy -'change' ...they invoke the God and the Devil alike ...

Luddite #16,
yes. My innocence may not protect me and at the same time if I had Dawood Ibrahim's clout nobody can touch me. Had Dawood did in Israel what he did in India, I am sure Mossad would have had the last laugh and not Dawood.

We have gone away from the topic of UID, which is a must notwithstanding who is going to get the order. At least this will save so Assamese losing their rightful battle against illegal Bangladeshi immigrants in future.

#20 Suresh,
'if I had Dawood Ibrahim's clout nobody can touch me.'

A more realistic expectation than the teeny-weeny biometric card that would save you from terrorists and illegal Bangladeshi immigrants.

i must be losing it (probably lost it a long time ago) but i have trouble believing that a universal ID will prevent acts of terrorism, and generally make us healthy, wealthy and happier.

US has a robust electronic ID system and they were sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo successful in curbing illegal immigration.

The end result of these kind of projects is concentration of power among various groups like govt bureacrats, politicians, UN, MNC's etc.

I guess people like getting branded as cattle.

Chamaklal:

"I guess people like getting branded as cattle."

you have something against barcoded humans? on the forehead would look cool. instead of interacting with others, we could just scan the barcodes to read their minds - as in are they thinking of committing some terrorist act :)

your point is well made. look, timothy mcveigh nor the new guy apprehended this week in new york had no shortage of ID's...i wonder if kassab could've been stopped in his tracks before he terrorized Mumbai by the mere magic of all indians having biometric ID's...

Champaklal:

"US has a robust electronic ID system and they were sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo successful in curbing illegal immigration."

however, the US famously, does NOT have any universal electronic ID system...driver's license, passport (most don't have it) and other proxies, yes, but no universal ID...unless it happened while i was not looking...

"US has a robust electronic ID system and they were sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo successful in curbing illegal immigration. "

erm, apples plus oranges equals rocketship?

and er, common.. we have social security numbers, which are our universal ID. so yeah, I guess you had your eyes closed :) although this is neither robust nor universal. we do not use them on IDs, but you need them to GET the IDs, and to get credit cards, etc. and to file your taxes.

SS,

I forgot to add the social security system to the list of drivers' license, passport etc. Too many ID'ed documents to consider, so I guess my eyes and brains were indeed closed :)

eeeeks! i did mean to type social security number, not "system". punish me now!

yes but driver's licenses are not universal numbers... an SSN is. and punish you? what, like make you listen to a Palin speech or what?

Ref comment no. 19 from AJ. Read your incoherent post. Are you on a self administered Sodium Penthathol?. You seem to be rambling from the innermost recesses of your soul.

Coolguy - "Are you on a self administered Sodium Penthathol?."

AJ: No but your post had the same effect!

Coolguy: "You seem to be rambling from the innermost recesses of your soul"

AJ: Could be ... but I am no expert on 'soul' but do feel a stirring from time to time

So you found the post incoherent rambling ...here's an English version

While it's great to have well intentioned honest critique of UID (or anything for that matter), the use of innuendo and lies makes me feel there is some other motivation. Despair is the feeling topmost amongst the bunch of thoughts that pass through my mind ... UID (IMHO) project is an exception because the government has appointed a competent person with history of delivering and with a clean past to execute it - that in itself is a big achievement. Even the politicians have not attacked the project or its Chief while learned intellectual desis have chosen to do so! Despair fills my mind and reminds me of 'Atlas Shrugged' a novel by Ayn Rand and the attack on competence, enterprise, honesty etc. depicted in it ... I find that misguided or ill-intentioned intellectuals driving India to hell (again IMHO).

Good enough?

BTW, you might want to clarify your 84% statistic ...please use facts this time

AJ

commonsense:
"...however, the US famously, does NOT have any universal electronic ID system...driver's license, passport (most don't have it) and other proxies, yes, but no universal ID...unless it happened while i was not looking... "



I never used the word "universal".

The question we should ask ourselves is that does US govt(or any govt in western hemisphere) keep tab on our activities, every time you buy a book, groceries etc using debit/credit cards?

Whenever you buy a plane ticket, apply for drivers licence, apply for mortgage, etc?

We all know what the open sceret is, if at all it is a secret!Its a foregoen conclusion that govt has access to more info than they would like to admit.

The problem being, for example, all the terrorists involved in 911 did not have serious criminal records to flag them down(except that Atta had changed too many addresses).

So one could have a squeaky clean record and stay off the radar. The Times Square bomber was an accountant for crying out loud!

If your complaint is that they are not linked, that by itself defeats the argument for unyeildy bureaucracies which inspite of having access to this treasure trove of personal information are unable to collate the same.

I don't think we are disagreeing here.

AJ:

"UID (IMHO) project is an exception because the government has appointed a competent person with history of delivering and with a clean past to execute it - that in itself is a big achievement. Even the politicians have not attacked the project or its Chief while learned intellectual desis have chosen to do so!"



IMO, its not about the individual, rather its the nature of the project, ie. govt's radius of influence in its citizens affairs. Goebbels was ruthlessly efficient in his work, did that quality justify his project?




AJ:
"...project or its Chief while learned intellectual desis have chosen to do so! Despair fills my mind and reminds me of 'Atlas Shrugged' a novel by Ayn Rand and the attack on competence, enterprise, honesty etc. depicted in it ... I find that misguided or ill-intentioned intellectuals driving India to hell (again IMHO). "



"Competence, enterprise, honesty etc."... when colluding with the govt ? Poor Ayn Rand, she must be spinning in her grave!

smallsquirrel:

"erm, apples plus oranges equals rocketship?"



---nope, equals Data Mining. Unfortunately, due to corporate pressure and due to cash economy all that information is either ignored or not under the scanner(if cash).

So whats the point in having info if it can be manipulated by interest groups?

champaklal:

"So whats the point in having info if it can be manipulated by interest groups?"

the proverbial hitting of the nail on the head! it's misleading (actually far worse) to think if only we could have this and that data, warrantless snooping on this email and that phone conversation etc. etc. etc...them would-be terrorists would be nailed...

Mr. A.J.

The 84% which is bothering you is a data provided by Nasscom. You may refer to the same and seek clarification from them.

A clean image and delivering of results etc will not alter the conflict of interest. A person who is holding a substantial interest in the company is held to be a person having conflict of interest while dealing with the company. And that Rs.3000 crores is a big amount.

The Government has made several commitment and one of them is a former's loan waiver which is still pending and a farmer had written to the P.M. that he is unable to meet the debt and is committing suicide. When there will be no one living in India if the farmers continue to commit suicide what to do with the Unique ID. Just hang it on the grave of the dead former.

Coolguy 36
you said "just hang it on the grave of the dead former"

even the typo made sense. All of us will become "former" when dead.

Cool Guy:

"When there will be no one living in India if the farmers continue to commit suicide what to do with the Unique ID."

Ha Cool Guy! But you (mis)underestimate the point of dying with a Unique ID versus the plain vanilla death that everyone experiences. The 300 crore will add to "the experience" that nothing else can...

In USA privacy groups and the respected ACLU have objected to the Biometric social security cards on the ground that the cards would seriously violate the privacy of the individual.

The report also decries the biometric cards on the basis of unsustainable costs. To quote-'The groups also decry the cost of biometric identification cards. A Homeland Security Department program to issue biometric cards to a million maritime workers called the Transportation Worker Identification Credential (TWIC) costs approximately $1.9 million, the letter states. Extrapolating to a legal U.S. workforce of 150 million people, the senators' proposed card would cost $285 billion.

(http://www.fiercegovernmentit.com/story/aclu-others-oppose-biometric-social-security-cards/2010-04-15#ixzz0naiI4DVs)

The report says-' A National ID would not only violate privacy by helping to consolidate data and facilitate tracking of individuals, it would bring government into the very center of our lives by serving as a government permission slip needed by everyone in order to work.'

It is amazing that our docile middle class is not able to see the unsustainable costs associated with this programme with little benefits flowing back to them.

Has this docility to do with the TV numbing our critical faculties with IPL shows, celebrity trash and soap operas?

Coolguy

Would you be kind enough to quote the full statistic as mentioned by Nasscom for everyone's benefit with a clear reference to the artcile /report where it appears?

BTW, I was referring to the innuendo and attacks on Indian IT industry and its leaders when I referred to Ayn Rand...but it will be lost on people who cannot stand their success ...

AJ

AJ

#40 AJ

I think cool guy is referring to the statistic given by Tarun Das(CII)who said in a discussion on TV(IBN-CNN) with respect to Obama clamping down on outsourcing.Mr Tarun Das (quoting a Nasscom study) said the biggest losers would be the MNC corporations who earn around 76 paise out of a rupee while the Indian IT companies earn around only 24 paise. Thus indicating that it would hit the interests of American corporations more as the Indian companies being junior partners are earning a pittance in the total share.

Possibly, the stat of 84% refers to share of top corporate executives in the India pie of 24 paise. While the rest are "cyber coolies" do not earn all that much.

Thx Luddite

I will await Coolguy's response on the 84% ...I am really curious to find out about it

AJ

#40 & #42 - AJ I hope you got clarified by the details provided by Luddite. As he has explained it was Mr. Tarun Das of CII had provided the details to the then Chief of Nasscom. I donot think there could be any more authentic data.

BTW. I would like to share with you about the write up of your favourite Ayn Rand
http://www.myspace.com/psychorand

Ayn Rand (1905-1982) was a pop novelist and pseudo-philosopher who led a troubled, unhappy life. She was addicted to a drug called dexedrine (dextroamphetamine), known to be a strong psychostimulant with destructive characteristics similar to methamphetamine.

Substance abuse was not her only problem. Ayn Rand's colleague, the psychiatrist Allan Blumenthal informally diagnosed her with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. An ex-friend, Edith Ephron said, "There is no way to communicate how crazy she was." Ephron's quote serves as a candid analysis of Ayn Rand, but it is not impossible to define Rand's disturbed nature. Indeed, in both her writings and in her behavior, Ayn Rand showed symptoms of multiple personality disorders, among them, an abstruse disorder which is the focus here.

It has been suggested that Rand was afflicted with something called Borderline Personality Disorder. This is an important topic that needs to be discussed within the context of Rand's sycophantic admirers, who sometimes show traits of BPD, NPD or both.

Did you ever have a girlfriend, boyfriend or significant other who claimed to be inspired by the writings of Ayn Rand? Did this person often slip into states of disassociation or display a lack of empathy towards others? Did this person behave in bizarre and impulsive ways that strained your relationship almost to the breaking point? Did your significant other have a powerful fear of abandonment? Were black and white ideation and a tendency to see other people as either "all good" or "all bad" strong aspects of that person's philosophy? Was there a history of this person "cutting off" interpersonal relationships or administering a kind of "silent treatment" on friends and family as punishment for perceived transgressions? These behaviors and characteristics could be interpreted as traits of a borderline disordered individual.

For reasons that are now becoming more distinct, it appears that certain borderlines are uniquely attracted to Ayn Rand. In this context, she can be seen as a kind of pied piper; a guru who leads her followers deeper into an abyss of social alienation and misery. Survivors of arduous relationships with BPD afflicted persons often comment on how similar the behaviors are from one borderline to the next. The fictional heroes of Rand's novels express a stoicism that mirrors the indifference and lack of empathy for other human beings so often associated with borderline pathology. Ayn Rand's own personal life clearly shows evidence of borderline behavior. AYN RAND + BPD = TROUBLE

Google "Borderline Personality Disorder traits" for more information.

In the original version of "We The Living", Rand wrote this disturbing bit of dialogue for her main protagonist: "What are your masses [of humanity] but mud to be ground underfoot, fuel to be burned for those who deserve it?" Many of her fans don't know it, but Rand deleted this passage several years after the book was already published. It's a dirty little secret that reveals much about her psyche. Ayn Rand was a sick person, not a hero to be admired, as her many young enthusiasts on Myspace would contend.

Ayn Rand psychologically abused and humiliated her own husband for an extended period of time. To say that she was cruel towards him is probably an understatement. No human being deserves to be abused in this manner, but Ayn Rand routinely did things which most well-adjusted people would find repulsive. She was cunning, manipulative and ill-natured. This form of psychological abuse, which she skillfully deployed, is known as "gaslighting".

"Whatever their source, there seemed to be rules of right and wrong for everything in Objectivism. There was more than just a right kind of politics and a right kind of moral code. There was also a right kind of music, a right kind of art, a right kind of interior design, a right kind of dancing. There were wrong books which we could not buy, and right ones which we should. Wrong books were written by "immoral" people whom we didn't want to support through our purchase; right books never were. There were plays we should not see, records we should not listen to, and movies we should not pay to watch. There were right ways to behave at parties, and right people to invite to them. And there were, of course, right psychotherapists. And on everything, absolutely everything, one was constantly being judged, just as one was expected to be judging everything around him. And if one was not judging everything that was around him, one was judged on that, too. It was a perfect breeding ground for insecurity, fear, and paranoia." - Ellen Plasil, from her autobiography: Therapist

(from The Ayn Rand Cult) - Rand portrayed herself as the ideal embodiment of her philosophy and as the role model. Yet while the ultimate goal of her philosophy is ostensibly personal happiness, it made neither Ayn Rand nor her most devoted followers happy. / The copy-editor for Atlas Shrugged recalls that with Ayn, "there was never a light moment,... no capacity for simple enjoyment. ...I found that very sad."

Sad, indeed.


Better be cautious.

Coolguy

We will ignore your rants about Rand coz I no friend of Rand ...AND another innuendo about followers of Rand will not help ... it is a misguided missile ...off topic, off target

Now coming to the statistic ... I have not seen any explanation for "Out of the 24 paise earned in India approximately 84% goes to the pockets of the Principal Promoters who also hold highly paid positions of the Company"

WOuld it be wrong to assume you were attacking the promoters of Indian IT companies in the context of Nandan NIlekani and your reference to TCS, Infosys, Wipro? Would it be appropriate to provide explanation of the 84% statistic?

I will help you in one case

As per publicly available data about shareholding of Infosys Technologies, Indian promoters hold 16.05% as of 31/03/2010. The two years before that, the number was similar (16% something). As far as the salaries are concerned, you can access their annual report http://www.infosys.com/investors/reports-filings/annual-report/annual/Documents/Infosys-AR-09.pdf and see page 23 for the CEO salary (who is also a promoter) - BTW, they started the company through their savings, taking loan against personal assets and were a zero debt company till a long time (i.e. did not use anyone else's money except shareholders whom they provided more than handsome returns)

THis does not seem to be consistent with your 84% statistic ...

If you have valid points against UID, you are welcome to express ... but misinformation makes one wonder if you are part of the mainstream media! If not, you have a bright future in the Indian electronic media - go for it man! You may be the next Goswami, Dutt, or Sardesai, who knows!


AJ

Many thanks for the interesting posts expressing different points of view.

But there is one point raised by suresh naig #1 which is left unanswered-'I remember leftists were agitating in 90's against compterisation in railways, attributing job losses. I dread to imagine a railway reservation without computerisation.'

I am afraid this comment ignores the ill effects of computerization. The fact is technology displaces labour. In fact the Trade Union and labour was largely destroyed by machines making them redundant.

But the revenge of technology is that when there are large job losses there is loss of purchasing power( around half of the GDP is backed by salaries and wages)- when there is loss of purchasing power there are piling inventories leading to business losses and recession.The cycle is devastating.

The argument that the new tech industries could absorb the displaced labour is a pipe dream.Very rarely a metal sheet worker becomes a computer savvy professional.In the service sector more technological innovations would mean a dead end to most of the workers displaced.

For a more detailed study of the adverse impact of technology in job losses and the myth of reemployment in the new tech industries read The End of Work by Rifkin. Ignore this book at your peril.

In a world where both the walls have collapsed (One the Berlin Wall and the other the Wall Street) the diatribe of left or right is meaningless. We have a situation where China is keeping US afloat with massive capital flows and cheap products. US with the borrowed money is providing demand to China!There is an uneasy partnership between US and China.

Thanks Sridhar for your valuable comments as a closure. China and US are sharing between themselves through the uneasy partnership. What is the status of India. Again looking for crump from the table to fall of the uneasy partnership.

Sridhar

Will all respect, you need to check you need to read up about economics Sir!

Also, not sure how the 'uneasy partnership between USA and China' has anything to do with UID!

AJ

sridar 45#,
Thanks for addressing my comments. Technology has not wiped away jobs, but created more new jobs. A person who is not keeping himself abreast to the new development will only keep cribbing about job loss.

There are no stenographers now, it has been replaced by more savvy secretaries, who render better and efficient assistance, making my job easy. My legal advisor sends me a draft and after few corrections he makes the final one and files it without much fuss. On line reservation has opened more opportunities for the touts to become entrepreneurs.

I am viewing technology in Yudhister's angle and you are viewing it Duriyodhan's angle. Only time will tell which one is right.

AJ:

"Will all respect, you need to check you need to read up about economics Sir!"

indeed. especially the kind that Ed Greenspan has mastered and that keeps Wall Street in the vibrant, shape that it has always been...collapse, what collapse?

Second futile attempt at injecting some commonsense :)

"AJ to Sridhar

"Will all respect, you need to check you need to read up about economics Sir!"

Spoken like TRUE believer in some TRUE Economics!
Umm, would this TRUE ECONOMICS be the one expounded by...err, Hayek, Friedman, Greenspan on the one hand or Keynes, Joan Robinson, not to mention all the other variations. Neo-Liberal Economics or Social Welfare or Rational-Choice Theory?

I guess pure and simple, the one true Factual economics? no complexities, "just the facts, ma'am", pure, unadulterated ECONOMICS (that too, as understood by AJ and perhaps Greenspan and Ayn Rand?)

AJ to Sridhar:

"Will all respect, you need to check you need to read up about economics Sir!"

great sense of humor there! my monopoly on it is under threat now :) "monopoly" did i say? ouch! gotta read up on ecomomics now!

"AJ to Sridhar

"Will all respect, you need to check you need to read up about economics Sir!"

AJ, this is respect, how to you write to people for whom you have no respect at all?? people such as me for instance :)

UID is intrusion of privacy of Indians in a world where both the walls have collapsed thus making China and USA uneasy because USA is floating over China. Hence we should all stop colluding with the government ...

AJ:

"UID is intrusion of privacy of Indians in a world where both the walls have collapsed thus making China and USA uneasy because USA is floating over China. Hence we should all stop colluding with the government ...
..."

1. unfortunately wrong again. IUD is actually a device for preventing pregnancies...it does intrude on the privacy of a woman, but only in a physical, not social sense...

2. if your point was to ridicule Sridhar, your goals might have been served better had you actually made some argument with the facts that you happen to stare at your face everyday; or even without them - since you assume that Sridhar is just spouting views without the benefit of facts. But then again, if all the facts are your fans, fixated on your face as you have pointed out, it is not surprising nobody else can have access to them...

CS

Correction ... I was not ridiculing Sridhar ...merely the lack of connection in his statements about China, USA, Wall st., and UID which I thought was the topic of this post.

Again ... you seem to have too much of a problem with the 'facts' issue ...

I have refuted innuendos by Coolguy about Indian promoters of IT companies with facts and he seems to have chosen 'Golden Silence' ... i could do that because he misquoted facts ...

How can I refute opinions with facts? It's like saying electricity should be banned because some people can get electrocuted ... cannot refute it ... just express dismay...that's all I can do ...if the opinion goes further and says it is a conspiracy because electricity benefits the Tatas ... I can only try to express outrage at the slander ... cannot refute ...

AJ

AJ:

"How can I refute opinions with facts? It's like saying electricity should be banned because some people can get electrocuted ... cannot refute it ..."

1. Not impossible. Fact: people get electrocuted. Opinion: naked wires should be covered up. This becomes the next "fact"

2. Oil leak off Lousiana - a fact that nobody denies. Opinion: either ban drilling or regulate and penalize the companies reponsible. This is an opinion that could be contested by the oil industry, but could become "fact" if it becomes law and could still be converted into mere "opinion" if that law is overturned again under pressure from oil companies...

Fact and opinions are not un-related. Opinions derive from certain understandings of facts; and opinions transform "facts" too. They are connected, even though they not identical, ie. the same....

Yes, you are right

AJ

AJ:

Sorry. I thought it is futile to argue with you as you seem to be wedded to IT industry and the people working with the industry. You fail to realise that the ordinary down town living people have little knowledge of this IT industry and are least interested. You are living merely because they toil in their agricultural fields and you are able to eat and live and you should also understand that the agricultural produce reach the Urban markets from the villages. We look for the benefit of the larger part of the community and we look forward for a larger share of the cake to be provided to them rather than the IT industry taking almost Rs.3000 crores for a biometric card which has no use at all for the village living people.

But you seem to have stuck to the percentile of the Promoters of the specific company and their remuneration. You would have read that the Chief promoter and his spouse sold recently a large portion of their share holding and if they were earning a pittance and had taken nothing from the company where from such a large portion of the shares were registered in their names and they off loaded the same in the market.

Irrespective of the names the industrialist is just an industrialist and their main task is to amass wealth for him and his family and nothing else.

I am not interested to arguing in futile since you were personally holding their briefs as if I was their personal enemy. My interest is in the distribution of National wealth to one and all and not to an exclusive family or industry.

Hope I have made my point clear.

AJ to me:

"Yes, you are right"

no fair! sneaky way to kill of a reasonably pointless argument...

#45 suresh naig,

'Technology has not wiped away jobs, but created more new jobs. A person who is not keeping himself abreast to the new development will only keep cribbing about job loss.'

Do google and find out about Rifkin's book 'The End of Work'. He challenges the assumption that new tech creates new jobs. This book which is rigorously researched is a brilliant critique that computerization/ technology has collapsed demand leading to deepening recession in the economy. Please read the book in full before you express your opinion on the subject.

#47 AJ
'Also, not sure how the 'uneasy partnership between USA and China' has anything to do with UID!'

I was referring to Mr Naig's remarks that computerization was the bugbear of Lefties and Trade Unions. With the decline and fall of both Communism and capitalism( represented by the collapse of the walls)central problems affecting the economy should not be viewed from the narrow perspective of Left vs Right.

This is especially true in a world where major ideologies have collapsed and we have an unusual situation where China is bailing out US!

Mr Naig,

Check the link-http://www.foet.org/press/interviews/Spiegel-%20August%203%202005.pdf for the rebuttal the new tech creates more jobs than it destroys.

Sridar #60

As I said earlier, only time will tell who is right. I have conveyed what I have observed, as I have observed Red and Green color.

I am clearly not interested in research papers saying that red is not red and green is not green; they are only visual perceptions to different wave lengths of light.

I have also conveyed my misgivings of Statistical data in earlier posts. By the way you have not proved me wrong as for as computerisation of Railway reservation is concerned. The proof of pudding is in eating.

One of the women in the village, Phulkari, approaches to tell us about her little boy.

"My son's name is Suraj, and he's started eating mud too," she says. "What can we do? We eat the mud from the quarry when we feel hungry."

"Where do we get the money?" she asks. "We usually eat food only once a day. Last night we went to bed without eating anything at all."

The World Bank estimates that one third of all the very poorest people in the world live in India, and stories like those from Ganne have now inspired a national Right To Food campaign.

There's no doubt that India should be able to afford to feed its people. But the devil is in the detail.

"It'll only cost the government about 1.2% of GDP to universalize a system of giving food for all, cheap food for all," says Kavitha Srivastava, the national coordinator of the Right to Food campaign.

"They can do it, if they have the political will. It's prioritising - where do you want to put the money?"

"We think it should go in building people's nutrition levels. You can't have a country which is weak, which is hungry, which is anaemic. How can you have a nation like this?"

Now the government seems to be prepared to accept a new way of defining poverty, which will increase the number of people below the poverty line by more than 100 million to about 372 million.

What I particularly don’t like about it is the pattern for which it is a part of…a pattern of deteriorating privacy, increasing government and corporate powers and authority, and the expanding number of ways in which “security� and “safety� are used to scare people into giving up those very things.

The real motivation of UID is to track people.It is foolish and naive to assume that the UID project will not be an erosion of privacy and civil liberties.When the Lok Sabha passes 8 bills in 17 minutes without debate how can we expect it to protect our basic rights?....somewhere in those 17 minutes we lost our right to privacy.

Recent amendments to the Information Technology Act should disabuse anyone of the notion that the government is interested in protecting it's citizens privacy.I strongly recommend this link A law so sweeping in its powers that it allows a police officer in the rank of a sub-inspector to walk in or break in to the privacy of your home -India Sleepwalks To Total Surveillance

Fellow Citizens!...please join hands...fight this gross injustice!! Kindly Endorse: Citizens against UID / Aadhaar

The UK decided not to go with ID cards for the following reasons

A blogger got so angry with the UID that he HAD to put his frustrations down in words.....read this piece titled Connectedness,Privacy and the Orwellian Nightmare

Census officials will now be asked to collect the data required for UID.Why should the taxpayer's money be utilised to benefit a few corporations ?

A short excerpt from Nilekani's interview with Karan Thapar....

“Karan Thapar: You said a moment ago that you would create checks and balances. I put it to you that you can never create sufficient and the reason say is this â€" In the UK, in the US and in Australia, because the authorities couldn’t respond to public concerns about misuse, they have effectively put on the backburner consideration of similar schemes for those countries. Now if developed countries cannot tackle the problem of misuse, then how can India, where 35 per cent of the people are illiterate and 22 per cent live below the poverty line? How can India claim that we can tackle these problems?

Nandan Nilekani: What these developed countries have put on hold is giving national ID cards to people. But both the countries, US and UK have a number. For example in the US, you have the social security number, in the UK there is the national insurance number. They already have a numbering system, which is what we are going to propose.

Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that is is nowhere near as extensive or as complete in terms of the biometeric details as what you are proposing in India. The national insurance in Britain has been around and developing slowly but it doesn’t have any details that could lead to an invasion of privacy. It doesn’t have any details that can be misused for profiling. Yours could have both?

Nandan Nilekani: As I said, these are legitimate concerns and I think we have to address them in the public as well as in the laws and so on. But notwithstanding these concerns, the social benefit, the inclusivity that this project will provide for the 700 million people in this country who are outside the system is immense enough to justify doing this project…�



Yipeee!.....Its all for our benefit!....never fear if "Social Benefit" is used an excuse for expansion of state powers.

‘So what?’ is the familiar rhetoric. Why fear if you’ve got nothing to hide? Why should law abiding citizens be bothered about some ‘inevitable invasion’ into privacy in the wake of increasing terror attacks? After all the perpetrators of terror are known to use Internet and other modern communication tools to plan and execute deadly strikes like that happened in Mumbai.

There is only one answer and it is a Thomas Jefferson quote: Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

WAKE UP FROM YOUR SLUMBER FOLKS!....read these links before rushing to the defense of UID(An apt metaphor for the police state-.....the soon to be-be ubiquitous UPYOUR-INTESTINE-DEVICE monitoring even your bowel movements)

A Gathering Storm â€" How UID Will Transform India Into A Police State

Critiques that discuss some less publicized aspects of the UID project

37% of the population lives below the poverty level and on less than 1700 calories per day.Now Nilekani wants them to operate ATMs using their UID's!Only a twisted, perverted mind could dream of addressing their situation in this manner.

Lies,lies and more lies on UID.Here are concrete examples of the chasm between what is stated by the Government and what the truth really is.

Significant differences between UIDAI’s PR speak and their actions. Some examples below.
Stated Position -> Actual

1. Constitution by Parliament Act -> Plan Comm Notification

2. UID # will be voluntary -> Conflated with mandatory Census and NPR; registrars may mandate enrollment before providing service

3. UID # to improve delivery of welfare services -> UIDAI not responsible for any improvements/leakages. Home Ministry launching a fingerprint database for criminals (Rs. 15K fingerprint reader in each police station of 22 states)

4. Data collection restricted to basic identity info -> MoU with AP/MP states that registrars can collect additional info required by them

5. Individual privacy will be protected -> We have no privileged information since the data already exists in many public databases

6. UID # will be random with no intelligence in # itself -> 12 digit number with 4 hidden digits (for pin/residence)

7. UIDAI will ensure data quality -> Registrar responsible for data quality; UIDAI and registrar not liable in case of intentional fraud by user

And some idiots on this blog are arguing fervently for the introduction of UID.Do you morons read....much less understand what you are talking about???

Both Parties that now form the new Government in the UK stated in their manifestos that they will cancel Identity Cards and the National Identity Register......so the UK has decided NOT to have a Identity database.Here's what their public officials are saying....

Home Secretary Theresa May said:

"This bill is a first step of many that this government is taking to reduce the control of the state over decent, law-abiding people and hand power back to them.

"With swift Parliamentary approval, we aim to consign identity cards and the intrusive ID card scheme to history within 100 days."

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg said:

"The wasteful, bureaucratic and intrusive ID card scheme represents everything that has been wrong with government in recent years.

"By taking swift action to scrap it, we are making it clear that this government won't sacrifice people's liberty for the sake of Ministers' pet projects.

"Cancelling the scheme and abolishing the National Identity Register is a major step in dismantling the surveillance state - but ID cards are just the tip of the iceberg. Today marks the start of a series of radical reforms to restore hard-won British freedoms."Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg said:

"The wasteful, bureaucratic and intrusive ID card scheme represents everything that has been wrong with government in recent years.

"By taking swift action to scrap it, we are making it clear that this government won't sacrifice people's liberty for the sake of Ministers' pet projects.

"Cancelling the scheme and abolishing the National Identity Register is a major step in dismantling the surveillance state - but ID cards are just the tip of the iceberg. Today marks the start of a series of radical reforms to restore hard-won British freedoms."Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg said:

"The wasteful, bureaucratic and intrusive ID card scheme represents everything that has been wrong with government in recent years.

"By taking swift action to scrap it, we are making it clear that this government won't sacrifice people's liberty for the sake of Ministers' pet projects.

"Cancelling the scheme and abolishing the National Identity Register is a major step in dismantling the surveillance state - but ID cards are just the tip of the iceberg. Today marks the start of a series of radical reforms to restore hard-won British freedoms."

And our politicians?...beholden to Nilekani and Co????.....do some of you on this thread REALLY beleive the bull-shit our IT messiahs feed us?

Pranab Mukherjee OPPOSED the formation of Natgrid which will spy on its citizens on the grounds of privacy....but the PM approves it...here's the link...Chidambaram has his way as National Intelligence Grid gets PM's okay

There are times when I wish I was a Maoist:)..Census to skip Naxal-ruled villages

Ravi Shukla writing for EPW argues that the UID will be be used “as a node point bearing citizen data and therefore capable of operating as a facilitator and mediator of market information [...] [to move the definition of a citizen] to debt legible consumer citizen as opposed to the relatively more inclusive idea of the political citizen.� (Reimagining Citizenship, EPW). The following news report in Economic Times supports his contention. UID #s will form the basis of collecting resident/citizen credit history to “score� their credit worthiness. This history is developed by information sharing by banks, telecoms, insurance etc companies thus essentially killing the individual’s right to privacy. Relevant excerpts below.


A host of new credit information companies (CICs) are coming up to provide banks with a comprehensive database of borrowers’ track record. [...] Helping link the borrowers to their credit histories will be the Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI) with its social security-like number, which has received a government support of Rs 1,900 crore in the recent Budget. [...] Last week, the Reserve Bank of India (RBI) gave operating licence to Experian Credit Information Company [...] Experian is the first credit information company to receive operating licence after the Credit Information Companies (Regulation) Act was passed in May 2005. [...] Earlier in 2009 the central bank had given in-principle approvals to two companies â€" Equifax Credit Information Services and High Mark Credit Information Services. Both are expected to get full-fledged operational licences before the end of FY10. [...] CICs maintain a centralised database on borrowers and rate their creditworthiness based on the information on their existing liabilities and past repayment record. The scoring is based on the analysis of the information provided by banks, which have already extended credit facilities to the borrowers. If a borrower goes to multiple lenders, then new lenders will benefit from these scores while making a lending decision and pricing the loan appropriately. The success of the model is based on information sharing between members [emphasis added] â€" NBFCs and banks. While Cibil enjoys a patronage of 200 credit grantors as members and has a database of about 1.5 million credit accounts, Experian has already obtained commitments from 39 lenders, even before starting full operations. Though the CIC Act has similar provisions for telecom and insurance companies, these are yet to take off commercially.

My main concern with the UID if implemented in India is that corruption is rampant in India. Where else in the world will you find a company called Satyam (Truth) which completely falsified its accounting statements. That takes some serious guts. Which is why India needs to implement stringent privacy laws before they implement the cards. In the US, you can get a state-issued ID card which comes in handy when you have to prove who you are --- for example, if you show your credit card, in order to prove that it's not stolen, the store will ask you for a picture ID. Similarly, at the bank, before withdrawing cash, the bank will ask you for a picture ID. The card can be limited to just show identity and not contain biometric and other sensitive information --- I think that baby steps (in the form of a pilot program) are needed to work out the kinks before a ton of money gets wasted (and siphoned) in the process. Maybe, start with Government officials and the IT big-wigs who are the chief proponents of the program as the first customers (guinea pigs) in this program! I am sure that the kinks will work themselves out really fast if the people who are rolling out the program are also the beta testers. Funny how someone else's privacy never seems as important as your own. My 2 cents worth.

#80 - I agree with Chewpie that this is one of the money spinning method adopted PPP (Public Private Projects) wherein the Government engage some Private players who was a part of the gobblers of the real estate is Karnataka State under guise of building infrastructure while building star facility guest houses etc at the cost of poor formers whose land was grabbed at a low cost. (As stated by the former P.M.of India ) Now the same person has moved to the Central Government for execution of this Biometric Card at a cost of Rs.3000 Crores which may cross the figure as India is known always to overshoot the estimates. The Private players would fill in their coffers as well as the government as the data is being collected by the CENSUS personnel which cost would be accounted for the CENSUS Cost whereas the Rs.3000 Crores would be only a bonus for issuing a number and no card possibly to be used to inscribe on the wall of the burial grounds. To add to the misery the State Government has acquired the Harishchandra Ghat a cremation ground and therefore there would be no place to record the biometric number.

It is, therefore, more appropriate that the project be scrapped and the money utilised to atleast rehabilitate the Bhopal Gas victims who are suffering for more than 25 years post the accident.

"Which is why India needs to implement stringent privacy laws before they implement the cards."

Laws?

Do you know there are 30 million cases pending already in courts?

Unless people kick the ass of Government at New Delhi, we will create new highs in bad governance day by day.

#82 Sumanth,

If there are thousands of rape and murder cases pending in the courts do we abolish rape and murder as crimes?

The argument is not against privacy laws but speedy implementation of cases in courts.

I would agree with chewpie that we need privacy and data protection acts before the cards are made operational.

Coolguy has a point:the 3000 crores outlay can be used to fund development projects in the poor areas which would cut the naxal movements in those areas. Moreover,funds could also be used to help the farmers get out the debt trap.

#82 I do sympathize with your point Sumanth --- However, as Hamurabi said, not having laws that address privacy is not a solution. The money will be completely wasted which is another rational argument. So, in India, where laws are not implemented (if they even exist), and corruption is king, how do you stop the government from putting biometric/sensitive information on a UID card? Mass rallies? Demonstrations? I have lived in the US for a really long time so my view might be naive in an Indian context, but here, in the US you can try to boot out the elected officials that you don't agree with. If public opinion is against the UID and it becomes a make-or-break election issue (which could be big stretch given all the other problems), then, there is some chance that it will not be implemented. So, what does one do in India to fix things? I come back to something that a friend asked me when I was complaining about something or another, "So, what are you going to do about it?", implying that some sort of action is necessary to get things done. In this case, what is the action?

#82. I fully agree with Chewpie. The only way this could be aborted i.e. the UID project is that (i) all the educated and sane thinking people should refuse to divulge any information to the agents who come to collect the information. (ii) Write on the sheet demanding the details for the UID that we refuse to provide information and that it is a farce on them people of India by the elected government of which the UID was not a part of the manifesto. (iii) File a Public Interest Litigation suit arraigning the Private Sector representative who has assumed the position of UID Authority that there is a conflict of interest as the person is holding with his family and near and dean ones substantial interest in the company which is going to handle the work. (iv) The revenue deficit could be avoided by saving Rs.3000 crores if the project is abandoned as there is no useful purpose is going to be served save for enhanced corrupt practices where there is going to be misuse of government funds

I for one, really like coolguy's ideas (#85). There might be some additional thoughts out there as well. Working together to stop this will put control back into the hands of the people. Time to stop being led around by the corrupt few. Time to say (I am quoting here): I am mad as he** and don't want to take it anymore.

Wow.Thank you for the indepth analysis..I don't think i am going to divulge any information as i want to live free.But who would file a PIL against such big boys? Has anyone filed a PIL yet then?