Desicritics Comments on Hope For Haiti

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Wed, 8 Dec 2010 05:08:06 EST

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Comment by commonsense

Sat, 23 Jan 2010 18:23:49 EST

ss, no hard feelings. i am reeling over the tragedy that is/was/continues to be Haiti...

Comment by smallsquirrel

Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:27:28 EST

no, common... you raised reasonable points in a respectful way. I did not take offense to anything you said, actually. we do not all have to agree. :) but I will maintain that the world's expectations of the US are rather hard to meet in any case.

Comment by commonsense

Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:24:22 EST

i'm out of this discussion! a major humanitarian disaster that, and i totally agree with you on this SS, should not be used as an excuse for me exercising my non-existent ego. mea culpa for ratcheting up the temperature. all of us, i believe are well meaning folks... but, as we all know, the road to hell is sometimes paved with good intentions. in that spirit, might i suggest a book titled: _The Bad Samaritan_ by Ha-Joon Chang (Ha-Joon Chang a former economist with the World Bank, is Professor of Economics at Cambridge University)

Comment by commonsense

Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:15:08 EST

my comment #11 was in response to SS#6 query: "but common, I would also like to ask you... aristide was voted out and the refused to leave and then asked his supporters to find the opposition and place tires around their necks filled with gasoline and light them on fire... which they did. should we have allowed that to continue?"

Comment by smallsquirrel

Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:08:21 EST

common, I am not going to act like I know much about Haitian politics, so I won't argue against you. like I said, I am not usually a huge proponent of intervention unless there is a clearcut humanitarian issue. I do not know enough about Aristide to know what is right, and I am not someone who thinks the US should decide what is right for Haiti. but I will read more, thanks for the leads above. ruvy... nice temper tantrum. you do hate america and you have said as much time and time again. as you can see, when someone brings something to me that is not sniping but is rational (see common's response above) I tend to listen. but when someone engages in simply attacking and whinging I tend to dismiss it... (see your response above). I won't shed a tear if you leave, because you are always on the way out, and somehow you always manage to come back. either way, I don't care.

Comment by commonsense

Sat, 23 Jan 2010 17:06:21 EST

SS: "I wonder what hte world wants from us sometimes... interfere here (rwanda) not here (haiti). get involved here (sudan) not here (well, everywhere else)." OH COME ON!!! a comment not even worth a snipe :) but, me being me, i will naturally take the bait! depends on who the "us" is! us the people? us as in the US? us, as in some of murkier characters in the US administration? is "us" synonymous with "US" (the dream scenario for any ruler, democratic or autocratic!). We the people, identical with we the government? etc. etc. etc. Nothing like misplaced patriotism to drive people off the rails, be it Indian, American or Martian

Comment by Ruvy

Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:57:47 EST

I'm not interested in convincing you of anything, squirrel. I don't give a flying fuck what you think! I only agreed with commonsense because he was right. YOU are the one who accused me of hating America. YOU are the one who accused me of sniping at America. YOU are now the one who objects to evidence being brought to support my points, raised in answer to YOUR sniping. Lady, if you don't want to get shot back at, don't fire in the first place. I'm outta here. I've had enough of YOUR LOUDMOUTHED BULLSHIT. Oh, BTW, if all you can do is snipe at me whenever I make any comment at all, then tell Aaman you want me banned here. I don't give a damn anymore.

Comment by commonsense

Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:56:28 EST

SS, sad time to be discussing this, at this time but compared to the butchers such as papa doc and baby doc etc. supported to the hilt by governments such as the US and France (note, "governments" i said, not people), Aristide was an angel or even better. None of the bastards before him even wanted an election, let alone being accused of losing it... Since i don't buy so-called "patriotism" for a second, when i say "american" i mean the administration, but not literally all "americans" (ditto for Indians etc) as for Aristide's ouster, i am not sure where you are getting your information from, but many americans (quoted below)and surely any neutral observers will disagree with your understanding of the ouster of Aristide. Here's a generic account of how much of the world, and prominent americans thought about it. It is also obvious how prominent american representatives of the administration such as powell (naturally) thought about it: 13th April Inter Press Service U.S., France Block UN Probe of Aristide Ouster "UNITED NATIONS - The United States and France have intimidated Caribbean countries into delaying an official request for a probe into the murky circumstances under which Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide was ousted from power in February, according to diplomatic sources here. The two veto-wielding permanent members of the 15-nation Security Council have signaled to Caribbean nations that they do not want a U.N. probe of Aristide's ouster. Aristide left Haiti in the midst of a violent uprising Feb. 29. Now in Jamaica, the country's first democratically elected leader maintains he was forced to resign under pressure from Washington, with strong backing from France. Both countries have dismissed the charge. ''I don't think any purpose would be served by an inquiry,'' U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell told reporters during a 24-hour visit to Haiti last week. ''We were on the verge of a bloodbath and President Aristide found himself in great danger,'' he said. ''It is clear that the United States and France violated the U.N. charter as well as the 1973 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Crimes Against Internationally Protected Persons, with respect to their criminal treatment of President Aristide'', says Francis Boyle, professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law. ''The fact that they did not demonstrates the continuing and further degradation of the Office of the Secretary-General, the U.N. Secretariat and the Security Council under this current regime of U.S. hegemony,'' said Boyle, author of 'Destroying World Order.' Just days prior to Aristide's flight from Haiti the Security Council denied his request for military intervention to quell the uprising, but it authorized an international military force just hours after he left the country. Boyle said it is important for CARICOM to take the matter to the 191-member U.N. General Assembly, ''in order to uphold the integrity of the U.N. Charter, which Annan and the Security Council have repeatedly failed and refused to do.'' Boyle also urged the Caribbean nations and other states to sue both the United States and France for violating the 1973 Convention before the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in the Hague, ''in order to have the World Court as well condemn what these two malefacting states have done to Haiti and President Aristide, and to secure his return to Haiti by means of an ICJ order.'' ''The alternative is even more international chaos and anarchy, and a continuing gradual descent into world war -- like what happened to the League of Nations in the 1930s,'' Boyle added. Jeffrey Sachs, director of the Earth Institute at Columbia University and a special adviser to Annan, has called on the United Nations to restore Aristide to power. To trained observers, he said last month, the events surrounding the ouster of Aristide ''have the hallmarks of a U.S.-led operation against Mr Aristide, similar to the 1991 coup against him during the administration of George HW Bush, in which the U.S. government fingerprints abounded (including thugs who subsequently acknowledged being on the payroll of the Central Intelligence Agency).'' The situation in Haiti clearly shows it is the Security Council, not the United Nations, which is really ineffective, Joan Russow of the Global Compliance Research Project told IPS. ''The Security Council has continued to violate the principle of sovereign equality in the U.N. Charter. The Council has been discredited primarily because of the use of the veto by the United States and specifically by the U.S. practice of intimidating, cajoling and offering check-book diplomacy.'' In the case of Haiti, she said, the General Assembly should request the International Court of Justice in The Hague to examine the U.S. intervention.

Comment by smallsquirrel

Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:45:07 EST

that is not evidence of incompetence, that is frustration that things are complicated. there is no one in charge and that is one of the issues. I would agree that things could probably be done better, but then again I know from people who are actually there and trying to help that getting anything done there is really difficult, even if you have what seems like an impeccable plan. has everything been done perfectly? probably not. But we're trying. The US has committed an amazing amount of resources, both civil and military, and I am proud that this country has stepped up in the way that it has. you just want to rail against the US, Ruvy. And I really don't give a shit. We all know there are things the US does well, and things the US has fucked up. anyway, in the end I do not give a flying shit about what you think. and for me, this is not the time for railing against the US.. this is a time to focus on Haiti. put your griping down for a second and figure out what you can DO TO HELP. If that is at all possible for you. If not, kindly just stop the whinging for a while so some of us can focus on something else.

Comment by Ruvy

Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:32:55 EST

where is this evidence of american incompetence in Haiti? Here is one source, from USA Today. Then there is a second article, this from Christine Lakatos, at Blogcritics Magazine. This is an e-mail, entered as a comment at a different Blogcritics article:

Diane Sawyer on ABC News,1/15/10, was for the 2nd day visibly and verbally upset that so much food, water, etc. was still at the airport and not distributed to the very many in desperate need and could be dead very shortly without it. Then one U.S. Commander interviewed, said they needed the Haitian government to designate distribution centers, then to be approved by the U.N., while 10,000 U.S. troops are on the way by Sunday to help in distribution. Has the U.S. government/military.. lost its mind altogether? If the Haitian government, which barely exists after this tragedy, wasn't there for the people before the earthquake, why is anyone waiting for this government to act now? If the U.N., which has done nothing to stop the genocide in Darfur with 500,000 Blacks murdered by the Muslim Jihadists there, why in the world is the U.N. in charge of this operation and tonight on CNN with Anderson Cooper showing that only Dr. Groupa of CNN, is left in a hospital with 25 wounded patients and the UN has asked the rest of the doctors to leave, and then to see the aerial views of hundreds, perhaps thousands of bodies lying on just one of the streets, does anyone get what is going on here? By following the supposed 'plan', whatever that insanity is all about, the food and water sits at the airport, and men, women and childen are dying like flies. A 'distribution' sight? How about every spot where hundreds and thousands are outside of hospitals, in parks and in the streets afraid to go back into their homes, and get the food and water to these people before they dehydrate and die. Oh first we have to deal with all the 'politics'? Let's see, now that the U.S. controls the airport, and not the U.N., then we'll be seen as 'occupying' Haiti, while others see this as a pretext to naming Haiti our 51st State. Now with 200,000 being reported dead, up from the Red Cross's assessment yesterday of 45,000, and this figure could drastically climb by this weekend, we are witnessing Obama's 'Katrina' of utter stupidity of going by 'the book',whatever that is, instead of stepping outside of the box and actually making a difference. How about just handing the water and food to everyone in need? Is this so hard to do? How about taking care of everyone that needs the help? At what point do you need permission to be a human being and help another human being, especially when you can? My angst isn't just towards how this tragedy in Haiti is being treated, which is an updated and still stupid approach to disasters like this, or Hurricanes Katrina or Andrew in Miami, or '9/11' and the Christmas Day bomber attempt on the plane, or Ft. Hood, or, or, or, or, or, or. This is how governments operate or don't and they don't... beyond the stunts and media ploys and everyone covering their own butts, so as not to do anything that they will have to be accountable for, while the rest of us are expendable. Do you understand this? We are all expendable to those supposedly in charge. Thank G-d for independent thinking and action from volunteers. With all the 'chatter' now from Yemen and another potential Muslim Jihadist attack on the U.S. at this very time period, you can see in Haiti the insipid approach that would happen here as well. Can't anyone make a decision that matters, when government bureaucrats are in charge? If 3 millions are affected by the Earthquake in Haiti, do we not understand that without food or water for 5 days what is pending? How do you play 'safe' with masses of people dying? How do you exploit for politics, the horrors people are facing? I plead and plead to network with people of like mind who do understand and who do feel for the sufferings of others. If your loved ones were in such a crisis would any of this be acceptable to you? It is the reason I do what I do and thank G-d have both the strength and energy to be like this. Appeasing those who want to kill us and then neglecting those in need after the damage has been done, is one more example of what we are witnessing daily in our approach in Haiti. It doesn't matter if the catastrophe is man-made through terrorism or by an act of G-d. Obama, stop telling us it will get worse before it gets better, when it is already at desperate levels and your incompetence in this, is accelerating the death toll and ongoing threats to all of us. All the jerks you, Obama, have put into key positions for political purposes, who haven't a clue on what to do except to precipitate this appeasement agenda is such a disgrace and how could we expect anything other than what is going on with all of these horrors? Today, after 8 yrs. of illegal Haitians in Miami and U.S. by the tens of thousands, will now be allowed to stay and get green cards etc. This still isn't feeding one Haitian baby starving to death or dehydrated by lack of water. Shame on you Obama and those you appointed who don't know what to do either for any tragedy or even how to prevent future ones. Having gone through Hurricane Andrew in 1992, I know what it is like with 80,000 buildings destroyed and they, only admitting to 50 dead, but there were many more. We on Miami Beach were 17 miles from 'Ground Zero' and every house on our block had no electricity for 11 days, all foods were spoiled, every roof had to be replaced if you could find quality repair people, not out to steal from you or legitimate insurance agencies not trying to screw you and in every level of survival running into obstacles for getting food, water, gas,repairs, cleanup and a host of basics, let alone damage to property and the emotional damage in all of it. Haiti we do understand and why we need to help. It took 10 years for us to recover. Every Hurricane season we're glued to the weather channel in hopes of not going through it again and Haiti went through 3 hurricanes recently before this earthquake. Then Haiti with so many of its trees destroyed. Then Papa Doc, Baby Doc, Aristedes and even today, where are the Haitian leaders in Miami speaking out, for they are in two political camps like the Dems. and GOP, and neither are for the people, when it is all about them and not us. No matter. We MUST help those who need this emergency help. The American people have always come to the rescue of those in need all over the world and we'll do it again and again for that is who we really are and we don't need to apologize for it either. END OF TEXT

[emphases mine] To make this a bit shorter, you may wish to go to comments #84 and #94 at the same article. There is more, of course, but this will do for a start....

Comment by smallsquirrel

Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:48:43 EST

where is this evidence of american incompetence in Haiti? where are you gathering your information from. and also, if you think organizing something like this recovery effort is easy, you should try it once, instead of your silly armchair sniping. it's not so easy to get things done when there is no infrastructure and nowhere to go. but then again I would expect nothing less from you than this type of sniping. what is important is getting aid to Haiti, not your sniping.

Comment by Ruvy

Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:31:14 EST

ruvy just hates americans and thinks we all eat babies for lunch Not for lunch - you're all too busy with the Big Macs and Double Whoppers for lunch - for dessert, with coffee and non-dairy cream.... You are rather presumptuous in your comments, squirrel. Foreign interference is foreign interference, and that is what commonsense detailed in his comment. As for the aid effort, the American military, which probably could do an excellent job with both food distribution and medical assistance, has been hampered and hamstrung by the fact the the idiots at Foggy Bottom have been put in charge of the whole effort. In a situation like that of Haiti, every second is precious - and American bureaucrats fighting over what to do, or having to get permit slips from a virtually non-existent UN task force there is preposterous, in addition to time wasting and scandalous, and many lives have been lost over this American incompetence in Haiti. But with time, one hopes that some intelligent machinery to feed starving Haitians will be put in place.

Comment by smallsquirrel

Sat, 23 Jan 2010 15:04:54 EST

but common, I would also like to ask you... aristide was voted out and the refused to leave and then asked his supporters to find the opposition and place tires around their necks filled with gasoline and light them on fire... which they did. should we have allowed that to continue? I wonder what hte world wants from us sometimes... interfere here (rwanda) not here (haiti). get involved here (sudan) not here (well, everywhere else). you have to understand that everyone votes differrently here, and I am sure even you will fall into this category and will have trouble with the distinction, only being able to tell later which is advisable and which is not by the outcomes... no?

Comment by smallsquirrel

Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:59:38 EST

yes, I agree, the problems in Haiti are many and a long and sordid tale. but it is total bullshit to say that no one here cared until now. I know of tens of charities here that were working in Haiti before the earthquake. common is criticizing governmental interference, which I agree with. ruvy just hates americans and thinks we all eat babies for lunch. this is preposterous.

Comment by Ruvy

Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:49:42 EST

Commonsense, You are not playing any blame games. Everything you say is true, unfortunately, and Haiti has been crippled beyond recovery for years by foreign interference of one kind or another. Frankly, I do not expect anyone to really give a damn about the plight of the Haitians at all. Now, of course, they give money because people are dying from the after-effects of an earthquake. But after a time, people will stop caring. And when they do, people will continue to die in Haiti because of the foreign interference that has crippled the country.

Comment by commonsense

Sat, 23 Jan 2010 11:27:45 EST

terrible tragedy, a truism for sure. once the situation is under relative control, perhaps thinking people will ponder over the history of institutional horrors that have been visited on haiti. the forced reparations, after the slave rebellion in 1804, debt that was not paid offuntil 1947. dictators after dictators, with the support of the powers that be, who robbed the country blind but who found support because they continued to service the so-called "debt"; the ouster of Aristide, the one good ruler who actually cared for the country...and he was labeled "crazy" because he actually tried to stop paying back the "debt" because the interest had far exceeded the amount owed and the country and society had been on its knees and limping for a long, long time. OK, before everyone jumps on me for playing the "blame game"...seriously, think about these tragedies as not simply natural calamities, but as natural calamities compounded by social shit that is tolerated by well-meaning do-gooders. beyond sad;

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