Desicritics Comments on India's Post-Independence Fight For Freedom

Comment by Citizen

Tue, 3 Mar 2009 02:29:39 EST

[blathering]

Comment by Aditi N

Tue, 3 Mar 2009 00:23:29 EST

Let me give you a perspective: At Halloween people wear masks. Would that be comparable to the Klu Klux klan wearing their white masks to hide their identities? The KKK does it so that people do not recognize them as they go about revealing their hateful prejudices in a world when people are evolving and looking beyond these differences for the greater good. So to answer your question: YES it is "agenda-based"....especially if the pseudonym itself is agenda-based. You have on this forum displayed the kind of bigotry and racism repeatedly that I would never even think of expecting from temporal. And if commonsense were to say the things you do I would "extend this courtesy" to him as well. This is not the first time you have made such a divisive comment. You have in the past used racist terms and bared plenty shallow biases towards people of a certain region or community. You do not bring anything to a discussion except your blind, unyielding prejudice and therefore, I have nothing to say to you.

Comment by Ledzius

Tue, 3 Mar 2009 00:17:17 EST

[Edited: Irrelevant to thread, Bigotry]

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Tue, 3 Mar 2009 00:11:10 EST

Aditi, lot of my Bangalorean friends are complete party animals and been so since their college days. I still get to hear about the good old days when the city had a safe night life. They are all South Indians. Just like not all Punjabies are party animals not all Kannadigas are docile home birds;)

Comment by Ledzius

Tue, 3 Mar 2009 00:06:30 EST

Oh, so you judge me because I have a cyber-pseudonym? So do you extend this courtesy to commonsense and temporal as well? Or is it all agenda-based?

Comment by Aditi N

Mon, 2 Mar 2009 23:53:30 EST

I am considered half-Karnataka, half-Goan and not at all N.Indian....but definitely LOVE parties and the only thing that deprives me of sleep sometimes is prejudiced assholes who cannot make a point without being shameless bigots and come across as cowards safe-guarding their crude, narrow-minded, provincialism behind a cyber-pseudonym. As a South Indian I can list quite a few "docile and sensible" ways to express "resentment". Verbal venting, as you can see in my comment is one way. Attacking women in jeans isn't a form of resentment...it is an open act of aggression. So much for docility!

Comment by Ledzius

Mon, 2 Mar 2009 23:36:56 EST

I hate the expression "party hard". It is almost insulting to suggest that this should be the ideal to be achieved and those who don't do this are losers. This "party hard" culture has resulted in excesses and a bad lifestyle which goes hand in hand with increased crime against women, drugs, bad health and so on. Punjabis in Delhi who follow this are derided as puppies. South Indians are more docile and sensible and don't believe that they should be dancing till the middle of the night every day after coming back from work. This makes more sense since we are a sleep deprived society to begin with, and with the long hours at work, having dinner and going to bed at sensible times is a good practice. So basically we are seeing a N Indian agenda being shoved down the throats of Kannadigas. Obviously there is going to be resentment.

Comment by ajay

Mon, 2 Mar 2009 21:46:05 EST

The article has an aggressive feel to it which I liked. But Aditi N, you might be missing the point on a few fronts here. Some of the women who have been attacked in Bangalore recently were kannada speakers and not all were clad in western clothes. The attackers themselves were in flashy jeans-tshirt. It is not about language, culture or being un-educated that is causing this friction. The underlying problem is the increasing socio-economic differences in our urban society. The economically challenged are brainwashed into believing that you are the cause for their plight. 'You' can be an 'outsider', 'pizza lover' or a jeans clad hipster. 'You' can be conveniently blamed with rising pollution, traffic, prices, etc. Nothing will change until the socio-economic disparity which is at its worst ever level in free India is addressed.

Comment by Kalugu

Mon, 2 Mar 2009 12:33:47 EST

Nice article. We had a discussion about freedom of women and pub culture at a family party and asked for the women to share their comments on the topic. Most women (including my wife) indicated that "going to pub" should be the decision of the women themselves and the decision cannot be forced by men. I think we need to engage is such conversations with our family members first.

Comment by SD

Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:15:54 EST

Have some of you guys even read the article? Or do you just see a mention of Pink Chaddis and then comment?

Comment by KK

Mon, 2 Mar 2009 02:38:07 EST

"and even the widespread violence of the naxalite movement." Why not send the naxalites some red chaddies?

Comment by SD

Sun, 1 Mar 2009 17:28:23 EST

ACDC "As such, it seems you are only getting worked up since it affects your Western oriented lifestyle of wearing jeans, going to pubs, etc and appears hypocritical and self-serving" Does Indian law enforcement provide protection only to people of a certain life-style? Anybody else who wants to reserve their right to way-of-life, culture, religion should expect the worst? Or maybe you are commenting on the author's lifestyle because you don't have any rational arguments to make. I am sorry to say it is you who lose credibility when you make personal comments instead of critiquing strategies proposed in the article.

Comment by Aditi N

Sun, 1 Mar 2009 17:12:46 EST

ACDC: Actually, my "Western oriented lifestyle" is safe in the US because here if I get attacked for wearing a salwar kameez I can call 911 and expect the police to arrive and be on my side when hooligans are assaulting me.

Comment by Aditi N

Sun, 1 Mar 2009 17:06:52 EST

kaffir: A majority of people in India have children & families. I believe the cause of safety can bring everybody together. To put it simply, people are weary of violence. In every city if you were to carry out a survey and ask what the majority wants from its system, you will see people of all religions, political affiliations and backgrounds expressing a need for peace, law and order, a need to feel protected by law enforcement. One doesn't have to be united on political, religious or even idealogical fronts in order to strive for society that yields us this basic need. They just have to be united in terms of wanting enough this basic necessity of a safe, world in which their children, wives, sisters, brothers, husbands, mothers and friends can survive without feeling constantly fearful and threatened. It is simpler than we make it out to be. We politicize every movement and every philosophy when citizen revolutions do not have to be political. They can be social and start at a community or institutional level. And to expect unity at such a small organizational level in a country of a billion is not an over-expectation or exaggerated demand, I think. One doesn't have to give up or fore go their own pet grievances in order to strive for a common one.

Comment by ACDC

Sun, 1 Mar 2009 17:03:44 EST

Kaffir, very well said. Aditi, I'm sorry but your reasoning does not seem well founded. If you had called people to arms over dowry, the caste system, reverse-discrimination, corruption, discrimination against Hindus, Islamic fundamentalism, etc (issues that truly affect the whole of India, not just a select jet-set) it would have sounded genuine. As such, it seems you are only getting worked up since it affects your Western oriented lifestyle of wearing jeans, going to pubs, etc and appears hypocritical and self-serving.

Comment by kaffir

Sun, 1 Mar 2009 16:16:46 EST

Aditi, when people look at the world through ideologies and not only dismiss the views of other ideologies, but consider them inimical instead of searching for common ground, how is unity possible? When people demonize political parties (BJP, Congress) for certain actions while excusing/ignoring the same actions when done by their party, what unity can be there? When people are too willing to see the humanity across the border, but not the humanity of fellow-Indians, that's not a basis for unity. When a small western-centric minority thinks it knows all about Hinduism from what Dawkins wrote, and imposes that view on the majority or scorns the majority, how will that lead to unity? When nationalism is considered a dirty word, on what basis will there be unity? Just talking about change or imposing it - which leads to unnecessary friction and props up the very parties one doesn't want to see in power - is not enough, how that change comes about matters too. This is an area where the so-called liberals/progressives could introspect, as their ideological framework necessitates an "opponent" or an "enemy" which needs to be defeated. Besides, your timing for this unity call is a little off - it's election time and all kinds of identities will get sharply delineated and the differences focused on, instead of unity. Past grievances will be brought out, used and analyzed to death. ("Ooh, you called me a feminazi", "Why did you mention Modi?", "They supported pink chaddi", "They criticized pink chaddi" and so on.) How many of your past grievances are you willing to give up and let go for unity?

Comment by Sumanth

Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:58:53 EST

How can people fight for freedom, when all they know is working hard and partying hard in stinking cities? Social change is complex. It is complete rocket science just like launching a satellite and guiding it into an orbit. Simple actions can result is strange side effects, which may out grow the problem itself. We already had more than enough problems in terms of poverty, disease, unplanned cities, terrorism, dowry, female foeticide, honour killing and now we have couple of more getting added every year. If we do not act to arrest the decay and start rebuilding, then who else will? The masters of the house are working hard and partying hard, while the servants are selling all the material in the house. For us, police, judges and bureaucrats are not our servants, but they are our masters. Whatever positive stuff we had in our society, we want to destroy that as well listening to the advice from vested interests from foreign countries. Can a individualists make good team players? To fight any battle, team work, leadership and sacrifices are needed. People have to make a choice between comfortable life and a sustain fight to rebuild the society? The real choices are always tough to choose. It is a good sign to get worried once in a while.

Comment by Aditi N

Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:45:52 EST

Are we Indians too divided to be fighting anything at all? I hope that some of you realize that as a united movement of citizens, youths and visionaries it is possible for a nation to tackle several different problems that may seem divergent but are consequences of the same dysfunctional systems: failure of law enforcement, politicization of religion, widespread corruption and lack of constitutional reform. All these have resulted in the different issues India is facing at the moment, be it religious riots that erupt, terrorist activity that goes unchecked, assaults on women, hate crimes, unequality of laws and even the widespread violence of the naxalite movement. In a nation where there is utter lawlessness and the officials who are paid by our taxes are not doing anything at all to protect our rights and freedom, shouldn't we as citizens be coming together to address all of these issues instead of only the one that we personally think is the worst ailment plaguing our nation? I refuse to believe that the strength, intelligence and effort of a billion people is inadequate in fighting for multiple issues at a time. Progress has to be multi-faceted. One cannot leave one section of society behind while fighting for another. You cannot fight to stall naxalite violence but be nonchalant about violence against women or riots in the name of religion. If you go that route, history is witness that you will be taking 2 steps forward and 1 step back and the end of the next decade our children will be left with the same amount of work as us. In all cases our law enforcement and our democratic government is failing abysmally to protect our rights, our freedom and our safety. They need to hear a united voice that protests against their apathy and impotency. We don't need one protest, or one fight...we need a revolution. We need a billion voices in order to be heard. Read the last few sentences of my article. We all need to be worried, very very worried that if we keep squabbling among ourselves about what the bigger fight is, a day will come when it is our turn to charge forth and we will find ourselves alone...because we did not stand up or fight for all those others who could've used our help then and who would've helped us in our own struggles now. It may be a cliche but it is true: United we stand, divided we fall.

Comment by Sumanth

Sun, 1 Mar 2009 08:39:26 EST

I fought for 5 years against violation of fundamental rights of citizens in India including Bangalore. I wrote about massive extortion, abuse and torture by police. I wrote that judiciary is dysfunctional, bureaucracy is incompetent and politicians are insensitive. I wrote, soon it can engulf all sections of society. I also said, there will be nothing called rule of law, if this continues. For most people these were non-issues for last 5 years. They often wondered how can extortionist police or dysfunctional judiciary can ever impact me or my life? There are others, who opposed me vehemently when I called India a banana republic. Even today, many foolishly consider that the present situation is due to Sri Ram Sena or the current BJP govt in Bangalore. The same people forget that Jasmin Patheja started Blank Noise project in Bangalore only more than 5 years ago to fight against street harassment and attacks on women. It was the Dharam Singh's Congress Govt which was in power then. It would be a grave mistake to play into the hands of politicians and blame one set of politicians. The problem exists in everywhere irrespective of which political party is in power. It is also dangerous to isolate Bangalore in this issue. Are Delhi or Hyd different in any way? Tomorrow, BJP Govt in Karnataka can swoop in and arrest some 50 guys at random and make big claims to shut down the whole story. Believe me, 1) Police is not in a position to do anything. They have no competency or even training to stop this kind of violence. 2) For judiciary it is a non-issue. 3) One set of politicians will initially use this issue for coming Lok Sabha elections. They will also claim crime against women in Karnataka is increasing. The other set of politicians will soon claim that it is a smear campaign by "arrogant" north Indians on Kannadigas. The national media will promote first set of politicians. The local kannada media will support the second set. -------- Without police reforms, judicial reforms and cleaning of bureaucracy, nothing will get achieved. See the Forest, not Trees. Did you all forgot what happened in Bangalore, when actor Dr.Raj Kumar was kidnapped by Veerappan? Did you forget the violent scenes a few years after when Raj Kumar died? The current hype is made only keeping elections in mind. Just the way, the word "pogrom" was used against Modi in Gujarat, now some want to convert Yedi into another Modi using the word "taliban". In the end, Modi is still there and Yedi will rule for 3 terms like Modi. The problems are deep rooted. Random reactions will not work.

Comment by Vivek Bharat

Sun, 1 Mar 2009 08:30:23 EST

Aditi: Well written article with the right logic. However I feel that our energies must be expended on fighting the real battles that threaten our freedom: Terrorism and naxal violence that have actually killed people and instilled genuine fear in our people:the real danger to freedom in post independent India. While I do agree that this issue of personal freedom must be addressed but the space,time and importnace imparted to it far exceeds its significance.We as a nation suffer from misplaced priorities-the bane of our present predicament.

Comment by ACDC

Sun, 1 Mar 2009 07:30:08 EST

Aditi, I have a couple of comments and I hope you will address them: 1. What does Valentine's Day have to do with International Women's Day? The former is a public display of what should be a private affair (sorry for the pun), and a crass way of going about it to boot. The latter is about social and economic justice. Why are you mixing the two? 2. I am amazed and amused at your bile and ire at the "Chaddhiwallahs" - with the massive problems India faces (Islamic terrorism, environmental degradation, the naxalite movement, etc) is this the best cause to fight for? As the saying goes, you have to pick your fights. I think there are much better fights to pick.

Comment by Seema

Sat, 28 Feb 2009 20:02:15 EST

#32: "But as a threat to Indian freedom, I think unchecked and ignored terrorism is a far bigger and more dangerous issue" True. Terrorism is defined as acts that induce fear or terror into society as a coercion tactic. Internal acts of violence that curb freedom and step on people's rights would also qualify as terrorism. Besides I think a populace is more vulnerable to much larger acts of terrorism by international entities when it stands divided over such key fundamental issues. "I'm sorry but I stopped reading once I realized what you were really writing about" Sad. You should have read on. The last paragraph would've probably addressed your nonchalance about this issue.

Comment by Aditi N

Sat, 28 Feb 2009 19:51:42 EST

Ravi: "We should debate issues, not individuals or personalities. I can't take sides, for or against, with a topic just because Kerty brought it up" Fair enough. :) Go on then. Hope it takes the discussion somewhere.

Comment by sm

Sat, 28 Feb 2009 19:44:53 EST

I don't really have any support for these self-styled protectors of cultures and their actions -- but I really thought, while reading your opening paragraph, that the threat to freedom you were talking about were the multiple and recurring terrorist attacks all over India, and the complacency of the government toward them. I'm sorry but I stopped reading once I realized what you were really writing about. I didn't have any disagreement with your position, nor do I see anyone in India agreeing with or supporting these groups (except other people within the groups). But as a threat to Indian freedom, I think unchecked and ignored terrorism is a far bigger and more dangerous issue.

Comment by Ravi Kulkarni

Sat, 28 Feb 2009 18:58:24 EST

Dear Aditi, I agree with Kaffir that Kerty brings a different view to our discussion. He is often illogical or plain wrong, but that's just my view point. I think we need to engage the likes of Kerty even if we don't agree with them, because that's what a true democracy is all about. It is an individual choice of course, and you may choose to ignore him as well. We should debate issues, not individuals or personalities. I can't take sides, for or against, with a topic just because Kerty brought it up. This does not happen in our society whether here in the US or in India. People become cliquish and ideological and behave in predictable robot-like way which is sad. I do see a pattern in Kerty's arguments and sometimes it feels futile to argue with him. But he does raise interesting points. Enough about Kerty... Ravi