OPINION

The Pink Chaddi Brigade

February 10, 2009
Roshan Krishnan

The Pink Chaddi Campaign has caught the imagination of a large section of the nation. If you haven't heard of it yet, just Google for it. It's all over the internet. Many blogs have linked to it or have articles about it. Even BBC , Outlook and a few other newspapers have covered the campaign.

I came across their website last night and instantly forwarded the link to my friends. I really thought this was a very innovative way to protest against the moral police. A very satirical, funny mode of protest but it gets the point across - that people will not tolerate such violent moral policing anymore.

It is a brilliant campaign, not in its effectiveness in stopping Muthalik and his goons, but in rallying people around a cause. It is provocative, sarcastic and humorous at the same time. It has caught the imagination of a lot of people. Just read the various blogs and forum threads related to the campaign and you'll find that people are excited to be a part of this! My friend has already said she'll be buying nice pink lacy undies to be sent to Muthalik this Valentine's: and I've volunteered to drop it off if there are a minimum of 10 undies.

I think of all the ways people could have reacted to what Muthalik and his hoodlums have done, this probably was the best. People haven't accepted the diktats of the Ram Sene and given up their rights. People haven't gone ballistic and taken to violence to prove their point. Imagine where we would be if pub goers started attacking the goons of Ram Sena! People have resorted to innovative ways to protest. Method which are peaceful, intelligent, humorous - everything that Muthalik and his men aren't!

The civil society is finally asserting itself in India, and in Bangalore in particular. People have had enough and are protesting in their own ways. No politicians or political parties are involved in these campaigns. There were protest marches held couple of days back and there is one more planned on the 12th across Bangalore. These are good signs for us as a country and a society. People are asserting themselves and fighting for a society where a person's free will isn't stifled!

I'd really be interested to see how Mr. Muthalik and his men react on getting boxes full of pink undies. Would they get the message? Would they understand the point behind it? It would be interesting to see what he does with all the undies. As usual there'll be quite a few folks who will rant against this as well. I've already got comments in my previous post saying that if this happens then they'll start sending burnt bras to Renuka Choudhary. Well, go ahead guys. It is a free country. You can send them what you want. But, good luck getting the kind of support the Pink Chaddi campaign has got.

If your blood still boils on seeing the video of the Mangalore episode and if you feel strongly about your rights and freedom, just drop a pink chaddi at one of the drop boxes as a sign of protest at what the Ram Sena did. Or, if you are in Bangalore, you could join the protest March on the 12th. If we do not raise our voices, then Muthalik and his likes will start dictating how we should live our lives. Do you really want that?

Update: In response to the 'Chaddi campagin' Mr. Muthalik said his groups of men will roam the streets, catch courting couples, call up their parents, those who have their parents consent will be freed whereas those without will be handed over to the police with pink sarees and Bhagina.

Mr Muthalik said the Chaddi campaign showed the bad culture of Valentine's Day and low level campaign will be opposed by the Sena.

A techie interested in current affairs, politics and very much in love with my country. And my blogs will definitely reflect this.
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#1
Aaman
URL
February 10, 2009
08:08 PM

Yeh ander ki baat hai

#2
Deepti Lamba
URL
February 10, 2009
08:54 PM

Back in the eighties women used to throw their underwear at rock stars at concerts in America. It used to be a compliment to have an undie thrown at you.

And now we women are presenting panties to people we wouldn't even want to meet in our worst nightmares.

The great tradition of underwear throwing has been sullied!;)

#3
Kerty
February 10, 2009
10:03 PM

60's bra-burning in America were rallying cries of coming together of sexual revolution, individualism and feminism. So if people start sending burnt bras or undies to this organization of loose and forward women, it might take it as a compliment. Under Obama, some people seem to want to recreate and relive America's 60's in India.

However, latest news is that Rama Sena wants to distribute Saris to whoever wants to trade it by sending in Victoria Secret's pink undies.

Just like St Valentine married off lovers in his time, Rama Sena is offering to marry the lovers after taking the parent's permission, and if parents refuse, take the lovers to the police station, where our noble police will free them without any harassment or demanding any sexual favors.

In the mean time, ABVP of Orissa, a student union, has announced it will protest V-day lust-fests in Orissa. ABVP has a cadre of Lakhs of students across India, and more than a match for the pink undie sena. I am sure other student unions tied to congress and communists will jump the fray if ABVP goes nation-wide with this. So ABVP has wisely limited it to Orissa, for now. Protest on such issues need not be nation-wide. Symbolic protests get the message out.

Mere threat of humgama on v-day is enough to keep most lusters at home and content exchanging V-greetings by SMS. Unlike larger than life lovers of Bolywood who dance around trees in day light in front of public, real life lusters tend to be a timid lot, afraid of day light and being found out by parents and people. So that leaves the hardcore ones, for whom, V-day is more of a political statement rather than celebration of anything. As they aptly call themselves to be pub-loving, loose and forward women. In a way, both Ram Sena and Pink 'Surpankha' Sena are flip sides of the same coin, and deserve to duel each other.

#4
Ravi Kulkarni
February 10, 2009
10:25 PM

Dear Kerty,

You sound exactly like Taliban. It is deplorable that you support these goons in the name of hinduism or culture. There is no basis in either for what they did in Mangalore.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

#5
Anon
February 10, 2009
10:34 PM

"In a way, both Ram Sena and Pink 'Surpankha' Sena are flip sides of the same coin, and deserve to duel each other."

Well said!

#6
kaffir
February 10, 2009
10:40 PM

I wonder how many "slumdog" kids can be fed, or sent to school for the amount of money that will be spent on buying pink panties and mailing them. These are the same folks who were going ga-ga over the depiction of "reality" of a slum and that no one is doing anything about it. Hey, they can always discuss it over a glass of overpriced beer in a pub.

The absurdity of human condition.

#7
Ledzius
February 10, 2009
10:47 PM

It seems to be an "undercover" operation, but again, thanks to the wide publicity, it is not..

Are the chaddis supposed to be men's undies or women's panties?

#8
Anon
February 10, 2009
10:52 PM

"if you feel strongly about your rights and freedom, just drop a pink chaddi at one of the drop boxes..."

Rights and freedoms back at the drop of a chaddi!

#9
kerty
February 10, 2009
11:00 PM

Ravi

"It is deplorable that you support these goons in the name of hinduism or culture."

It is also deplorable to support culture war in the name of love, freedom and rights. If cultural warriors can take aggressive postures, than so can people opposed to it.

Why is something bad merely because Taliban also opposes it? Taliban hates eating shit too, does that mean we must love eating shit or else be labeled as Taliban by our jehadi-loving leftists? Besides people who get tied up in knots over Hindu 'Taliban' have no problem nursing the real Taliban as votebanks in India.

Manglore may not make any sense to you. But it does to lots of parents, women and families.

#10
Aditi N
February 10, 2009
11:17 PM

#6: Bottomline: everything is Danny Boyle's fault. Damn realism. They should send him some chuddis too.

:)

Ravi: It may be deplorable but it was also expected. kerty is right on one count: Kidnapping does make sense to a lot of parents, women and families. I mean, come to think of it, who wouldn't want to have their kid...umm..napped? :)

You have to admit Ravi, there are so many Indian parents who would rather have their daughters assaulted and kidnapped than go on a date, receive a rose or a Hallmark card. That's reality! Grim reality. But of course nobody is allowed to put such "realities" in a film. Especially not "Westerners".

Those are our private realities, what we decide to do with our country's daughters to set their young minds right. Its called tough love.

You know what SIFF calls such tough love...they call it "behavioral correction of wives".

:)

#11
ajay
February 11, 2009
12:00 AM

@Kerty, you say:
"Manglore may not make any sense to you. But it does to lots of parents, women and families."

So I am sure the parents and families of girls who were molested in Mangalore are seeing a lot of sense in those events.

#12
Sumanth
February 11, 2009
12:05 AM

The foolish feminists do not understand that such antics can backfire on them pretty badly and then, they will crib about some men being "anti-women".

People started:

Pink Condom Campaign
--------------------

http://thepinkcondomcampaign.blogspot.com/2009/02/about-us.html

What is Pink Condom campaign?

This campaign has been started as a response to some self righteous and progressive people who started the Pink Chaddi campaign. Their chaddi campaign ends on Valentine's Day of 2009, but this is just a beginning for us.

We are more democratic and transparent than the Pink Chaddi walas. We don't claim inflated figures of support. There is a poll at the right hand corner of this page, which shows how many people support us, and how many don't!

Why condoms?

Condoms are necessary to save yourself from AIDS and to lead a progressive and secular life. The Pink Chaddi walas claim themselves to be pubgoing, loose and forward - a condom will help them maintain being that.

#13
kerty
February 11, 2009
12:16 AM

Ajay

We don't know what their parents are seeing. They would certainly be outraged as they should be. But they should also feel ashamed for failing to give sanskars and letting the girls become tramps. The buck stops with those parents. Responsible parents would use this event to make sure what their kids are up to.

#14
Sumanth
February 11, 2009
12:21 AM

Aditi,

What can one expect from a feminist like you?

I am not surprised at your lies.

"Those are our private realities, what we decide to do with our country's daughters to set their young minds right. Its called tough love.

You know what SIFF calls such tough love...they call it "behavioral correction of wives". "

The truth is:
SIFF campaigns against forced marriages.

We are demanding enforcement of UN MDG for banning forced marriages in India. But, the hypocrites like Renuka Choudhury are not ready.

#15
Kaiser_Soze
February 11, 2009
12:28 AM

Panty Raids in US campuses used to be in the realm of male fantasy. Now its being promoted by feminists. You have come a long way baby!

#16
sarah islam
February 11, 2009
12:48 AM

Sumanth:

"Condoms are necessary to save yourself from AIDS and to lead a progressive and secular life. The Pink Chaddi walas claim themselves to be pubgoing, loose and forward - a condom will help them maintain being that."

Ahh! I see where you are going with this. Progressive is equal to loose! Okaaay! what would we do without people like you?

#17
temporal
URL
February 11, 2009
12:56 AM

adi:

time to revisit hall-of-shame sumanth comment?

I am a liar. I am a liar.

Go and do what you want to do.

If it makes you feel happy, then I accept.

I have mastered the feminine and I know what tolerance is.

I being a liar, does not prove that feminists are not liars or hypocrites.

I am a liar, I am having double standards and I am a treacherous person. - Sumanth October 14, 2007 12:58 PM


#18
Roshan
URL
February 11, 2009
12:56 AM

@kerty

Are you saying that only people filled with lust celebrate Valentines day?

@kaffir, I'm sure slum kids can be fed with the money being spent on chaddis. But, we vote in governments to be doing that job. To provide decent education, uplift people from poverty, to provide security to people. We pay taxes for all of this. Money from a few chaddis isn't going to bring these kids out of poverty. Also, I could argue that Ram Sena should start schools which provide education as well as teach kids culture. That would be way better than attacking people to protect one's culture.

@kerty,
"But they should also feel ashamed for failing to give sanskars and letting the girls become tramps."

'Sanskars' only for the women? Kyun, ladke sab dhood ke dhule hote hai? (I felt the hindi phrase was apt here) Men do not need sanskar or culture? Do you think the men who molested the women had great Indian sanskar? Were their parents proud of their actions?

@anon
"Rights and freedoms back at the drop of a chaddi!"

Dropping a chaddi will definitely not get your freedom and rights back. This is a symbolic protest against stifling people's rights. Just like making salt was a symbolic protest against the British, we did not get freedom right after!

And please do not go ballistic because I compared Ghandiji's protest to this one. I have immense respect for the Mahatma and his way of protest. He respected people's rights and did not resort to violence to prove his point.

Sumanth and co, do you guys believe that women shouldn't be going to pubs and drinking? What if their parents are ok with it? Btw, best of luck with the pink condoms campaign. I hope you are able to distribute condoms to a lot of people.

#19
Anon
February 11, 2009
01:08 AM

"And please do not go ballistic because I compared Ghandiji's protest to this one. I have immense respect for the Mahatma and his way of protest."

Even Renuka Chadhury compared her call for "pub bharo andolan" to "jail bharo andolan". It's all fair. Mahatma won't mind either, I am sure.

#20
Sumanth
February 11, 2009
01:12 AM

[blathering]

#21
Anon
February 11, 2009
01:25 AM

I just read Sumanth's comment. If his comment was blathering, I have seen more "blathering" from DC editors. Who edits editors' comments? Just wondering.

#22
Roshan
URL
February 11, 2009
01:26 AM

@anon,
I'm sure the Mahatma wont mind. I was worried about Sumanth and co misunderstanding the analogy :)

#23
Sumanth
February 11, 2009
01:31 AM

Finally, DC has to rope in Temporal to reactivate the "censorship process".

When people do not find a way to face truth, then censor.

#24
temporal
URL
February 11, 2009
01:35 AM

you have begun to spam sumanth

hence a reminder in your own words in #17?

#25
Anon
February 11, 2009
01:36 AM

I think Sumanth and co would have problems only if someone approves of the pink chaddi campaign being compared to Mahatma's Salt Satyagraha but takes objection to making the same comparison when it comes to the pink condom campaign. You didn't. So, it's all good.

#26
temporal
URL
February 11, 2009
01:37 AM

why you do not like #17?

#27
Sumanth
February 11, 2009
01:52 AM

When did I say, I have a problem with Pink Chaddi campaign?

I have no problems with "Pub Bharo", Pink Chaddi, Pink Condom, "Stinky Lungi' campaigns.

I and my movement is all set to gain, when there is a chaos due to any issue.

We are happy that Feminazis are now coming out of their holes in the ground.They now come in the range of our cannons.

We were really missing them for last one year.

When these Feminazis get the anti-women medicine, all their mental faculties will get short circuited and they will explode with anger.

========
Let us see, how long Girija Vyas can continue with her line,"No Indian woman likes to Break her marriage".

She can not say, pub going, loose moral, Pink Chaddi women do not like to Break their marriages.
========

The ultra conservative judges are watching from sidelines and reading about Pink Chaddi campaigns.

They will think two times before denying child visitation to a man.
-------
Now, multiple battle fronts have got opened.

We have told Pramod Muthalik "personally", if he wants our support, he has to shout against jailing of 1,23,000 women by Renuka Choudhury.
-------

We have bigger issues to handle, than these pub going Blank Noise heroins, who achieved nothing legally in last 4 years of their existence.

#28
Roshan
URL
February 11, 2009
02:15 AM

If Muthalik shouts against the 123000 women wrongfully jailed, that'll be one good thing he'd be doing...

Blank Noise is a blog against what we call as 'eve teasing'. So in your opinion eve teasing and molesting women aren't that big a deal, is it?

#29
krish
February 11, 2009
03:43 AM

Kerty: In a way, both Ram Sena and Pink 'Surpankha' Sena are flip sides of the same coin, and deserve to duel each other
Well said Kerty. I think our country has many major issues to attend rather than exchanging chaddis and saris. I sincerely believe majority of the population do not even know that is a PUB?
Still many people in our country have food only one time a day ! Still many girl childs are killed and many wives are burnt. I hope this pink undie people combat that.

#30
Roshan
URL
February 11, 2009
04:04 AM

Actually krish, I think Muthalik and his men should be looking at tackling those issues. Pink Undie campaign is in response to their violent and intolerant behavior. They are the ones who are claiming to do public good by attacking women.

And it's not about going to a pub or wearing clothes. The 'bigger issue' everyone seems to be so concerned about is right here. This issue of individual rights and freedom! Rich or poor, man or woman, these rights are sacrosanct and needs to be protected from being taken away!

Today it's the pubs, tomorrow some people will ask you not to go to restaurants or cafes! Will you accept that as well krish?

#31
Ayan Roy
February 11, 2009
04:17 AM

@Kerty: Just one question - Why no "Sanksars" for men? Why only for GIRLS?
Why is it a problem if GIRLS drink and smoke and have sex freely? Why is it not a problem if BOYS do it??? Why shouldn't Indian parents teach their sons to be decent, polite and respectful human beings?

What about men eve-teasing and urinating in public? That is a major pillar of "Indian" culture, isn't it!? It's perfectly moral to urinate on the walls, spit here and there, and act like goondas and hoodlums, right Kerty?

Extending your neanderthal viewpoint, any man too found drinking in a pub or visiting prostitutes or openly cavorting with his girlfriend should also be spat upon, beaten up and flogged. Agree?

You should be equally vociferous in condemning drinking, smoking and promiscuity by men too, which you seem to never do. Because of this, you come across as someone with severe double standards and an extremely chauvinistic anti-woman attitude, which is present in so many Indians.

The barbaric Muslims and mullahs, whom you hate so much with a fervent zeal, are at least not hypocrites with regards to their oppressive social laws, especially regarding alcohol and premarital sex - they apply equally for both men and women.

#32
Anon
February 11, 2009
04:27 AM

"This issue of individual rights and freedom! Rich or poor, man or woman, these rights are sacrosanct and needs to be protected from being taken away!"

Mangalore incident received so much media attention that you think it is only today that your individual rights and freedom are at risk. The fact is individual rights and freedom to live a normal peaceful life have been taken away from citizens long ago through the passage of draconian laws.

The Domestic Violence Act is a very good example. Some of the provisions of the DV Act that are in direct violation of human rights and constitutional rights can be found at the following link:

http://uchalla.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/press-release-on-the-2nd-anniversary-of-domestic-violence-act-26th-october-2008/

If DV Act is tolerable, then banning pubs is no big deal.

#33
kerty
February 11, 2009
04:54 AM

Ayan

A country will always have many pressing problems. That does not mean it should not address any problem. If Rama sena feels strongly about an issue, it will try to raise it. If you or others feel there are some other more pressing issues, go ahead and raise them. Raising of one issue does not preclude raising other issues by others.

Men get taken to task all the time for all kinds of lapses. It seldom makes the news. Media seems to see it and sensationalize it only when women happens to be at the receiving end.

#34
kerty
February 11, 2009
05:03 AM

Ayan

A country will always have many pressing problems. That does not mean it should not address any problem. If Rama Sena feels strongly about an issue, it will try to raise it. If you or others feel there are some other more pressing issues, go ahead and raise them. Raising of one issue does not preclude raising other issues by others.

Men get taken to task all the time for all kinds of lapses. It seldom makes the news. Media seems to see it and sensationalize it only when women happens to be at the receiving end. Particularly, when hindus try to do it. Than it would hit news even if males are at the receiving end.

#35
Sumanth
February 11, 2009
05:47 AM

Ayan Roy,

"Just one question - Why no "Sanksars" for men?"

You want to know what Sanskars are applied for men:


If there are no Sanskars for men, men would not have been dying in such a large numbers.

Here are a few Sanskaras for Men.

1) A adulterous man will be jailed, where as women are given free license to adultery.

2) Men can not keep their parents in their house.

3) Men must not call their parents or siblings once they get married.

4) Only Men/boys have to take care of their elderly parents and get abused by his wife at the same time for doing that.

5) A Man who does not take care of parents in old age in a sinner.

6) A Man has to pay for schooling and food of for the child, whom he has not seen for years.

7) A Man must get ready to spend 4 days in jail along with his parents (if needed) as soon as he gets married.

8) A Man or his words must never be trusted.

10) Men are to be abused if they are mama's boys. The same does not apply to women who are mama's girls.

11) Men have to do all hazardous work.

12) Men have to arrange dowries sacrificing lives for their daughters and sisters.

14) Men have to get oppressed by 1% alpha-males who control all the power in a male dominated society.

15) Boys as young as 10 year old ones must work as unpaid bodyguards for women folk in his house.

16) Boys must work on roadside restaurants, if the family is poor.

17) Men deserve no protection from assaults by wives, their bothers, fathers and mothers. In stead, the assaulted men have to be arrested and jailed.

18) Boys have to be emotionally suppressed by their parents. Boys should rarely cry after age of 7.

19) Men must protect women by facing violence and at the expense of their own life.

"Stree Raksha" is param Dharma.

===========

Do you want to know any more Samskaras imposed on boys and men?





#36
Anon
February 11, 2009
06:37 AM

Someone just happened to send me this link. Not sure what brigade can help these girls.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaushikbiswas/3102119546/

#37
Ravi Kulkarni
February 11, 2009
06:42 AM

Dear Kerty (#9),

"It is also deplorable to support culture war in the name of love, freedom and rights. If cultural warriors can take aggressive postures, than so can people opposed to it."

What culture and what war? India has had a long history of celebrating love. I would recommend reading stories and substories of Mahabharata. Nobody is forcing anyone to indulge in love. Your argument does not make sense.

"Manglore may not make any sense to you. But it does to lots of parents, women and families."

In other words this Ram Sena is acting on behalf of parents, women and families? I don't remember there was ever an election in which they got a mandate to govern people's behavior and morality.

If people do not like this behavior, all they have to do is to not participate in it. They can guide their children to a more "chaste" behavior. A mob can not decide how or what anybody does in their private world while not affecting anyone else.

"Why is something bad merely because Taliban also opposes it?"

It is what Taliban does and what they stand for. They act as the moral guardian of humanity - they know everything and they are the defenders of God's word. There is no difference between their behavior and Ram Sena's. Morality is not a static list of commandments written in stone contrary to what bible says. It is an ever evolving code of conduct that depends on people, place and circumstances. That's why the Vedas and Upanishads never proclaim to be final and complete. That's why Ram Sena's behavior and your support of it goes so much against the Hindu ethos.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

#38
Ravi Kulkarni
February 11, 2009
07:20 AM

Dear Aditi (#10),

That's funny but it is the reality. I don't see Ram Sena protesting or assaulting eve teasers of Bangalore and Delhi. It is clearly a political act with a few dastardly leaders brainwashing some clueless youth. It will die down when majority of the people do not support such acts.

Regards,

Ravi

#39
Sumanth
February 11, 2009
07:28 AM

"In other words this Ram Sena is acting on behalf of parents, women and families? I don't remember there was ever an election in which they got a mandate to govern people's behavior and morality."

Congress got a small percentage of votes in last elections.

How can congress act on behalf of parents, women and families?

How can congress pass laws to destroy families and send women to jail?

If Congress can behave like Nazis, and you keep quite, then keep quite for Sri Ram Sena as well.

=======
Either there is freedom for everyone, or there is freedom for no one.
=======

#40
Ravi Kulkarni
February 11, 2009
07:36 AM

Dear Sumanth,

Even if Congress got a small percentage of votes, they got it through regular elections. Our electoral reality is such that nobody can get a majority of the votes. I don't have to spell it out.

I do not keep quiet about Congress either. If they are corrupt (which they are) and ineffective (which they are), I do and will condemn them. I have never voted for them.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

#41
Suresh Ram
February 11, 2009
07:50 AM

Niether Ram sena nor Pink Chaddi's nor 24X7 jurnos appear to have any sympathy for this women!
Gayathri: Advocate tried to molest me
February 8th, 2009
By Our Correspondent

Feb. 7: The young woman from Shastri Nagar, mauled by a group of advocates inside the high court and later arrested for allegedly beating up an advocate, said on Saturday that she had acted in 'self-defence' when the advocate tried to touch her inappropriately.
"I was at the high court for a hearing on my divorce case on Friday. Since it was deferred to a later date, I asked my husband's advocate the reason for delaying the divorce, which is in its final stages when he made some lewd comments.
He then tried to molest me in full public view. It was then I retaliated and
told him that I would 'slipper him'," Gayathri, who is now admitted to the GH for injuries sustained in the assault, said on Saturday.
She said the advocate immediately yelled that he was being beaten and a mob soon gathered and attacked her even as her father and husband were standing next to her.
"I had gone to the court to get justice. But when such a thing could happen to me inside the court premises, how do you expect me to be quiet? I am being punished for protecting myself from an unruly man while the person who tried to sexually assault me walked away after hitting me," she said.
A group of activists forced the police to accept a complaint from Gayathri and it was registered early on Saturday morning.
Assistant commissioner of police Kadar Moideen said the police had registered a case against
the advocates under Section 354 of the IPC and under Women's Harassment Act.
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/chennai/gayathri:-advocate-tried-molest-me-137

#42
Anamika
February 11, 2009
10:54 AM

It would be useful if these self-described thekedaars of Hindu and/or Indian culture actually read up on the traditions they claim to "protect" and "uphold":

http://www.livemint.com/2009/02/09221126/Even-the-sutras-allowed-some-a.html

#43
kaffir
February 11, 2009
11:15 AM

"The barbaric Muslims and mullahs, whom you hate so much with a fervent zeal, are at least not hypocrites with regards to their oppressive social laws, especially regarding alcohol and premarital sex - they apply equally for both men and women."
********
Ayan, they do? In theory, yes, but in practice, I doubt it.
How many Muslim men have been given hundred lashes for pre-marital sex, or killed by their parents for sullying the family honor for falling in love with a non-Muslim girl? How many Muslim men wear burqa?

It's good that you chose only those two - alcohol and pre-marital sex - and not rape and extra-marital sex.

If you want to rebut a point of kerty's, you can do so without indulging in whitewash or propping up sharia law. (This is where 'an enemy of my enemy is my friend' phenomenon comes into play.) And Hitler wasn't a hypocrite either - is that something to be admired?

#44
kerty
February 11, 2009
11:25 AM

Ravi

"India has had a long history of celebrating love."

V-day or pubbing has nothing to do with love. India has long history of keeping love in private and personal domain, within committed relationships.

"Nobody is forcing anyone to indulge in love."

When it is celebrated as a national fest, when people are required to showcase it on this day, it forces everybody, young and old, to find a valentine and not be a scrooge. The coersion is subtle, powerful, and works thru peer pressure.

"I don't remember there was ever an election in which they got a mandate to govern people's behavior and morality."

So we need elections to define and defend them and only politicians are allowed? Morality and culture is not a state subject. People and communities define and dictate them, they always have, and they always will. Subjecting them to individualism, to state fiats, to political ideologies is a form of cultural war.

"what anybody does in their private world while not affecting anyone else."

But what anybody does in public domain does effect everyone else. And localities, communities have right to define their public domain and what can and can not occupy it. The rule is very simple, if there is no consensus(absence of strong cultural precedence, presence of strong opposition) in the locality or community, than it has to remain in personal domain in that locality. People who want it must work within communities to convince them, win them over, than it can become part of the public domain for that locality. That is how India has developed and accommodated localities, communities, pluralities, diversities - subjecting them to national, state and political fiats, ideological de-constructions amount to cultural war, to which, people are forced to react outside the parameters of democracy and laws.

"That's why Ram Sena's behavior and your support of it goes so much against the Hindu ethos."

What Hindu ethos? First, you assert that there is no such thing as Hindu ethos or culture and than claim defending them goes against it? You equate ethos to giving up, not defending, evolving to anything without questioning it or debating the merits, you make it akin to electoral and political mandates, subject it to anarchy of individual rights and freedom, and any resistance as Taliban and than stand dumb faced asking where is culture war and what is cultural police doing there and where did it come from? In this ideological paradigm, culture and morality simply do not exist, can not be allowed to exist, can not be allowed to be asserted or propagated, can not be permitted to remain viable. You want communities and localities to evolve to such cultural and moral nihilism without debate, discussion or protests? Simply branding them as moral police or Taliban amounts to stone-walling, not debate or addressing the issues people care about. That reduces people to use aggressive means to press their issues, and take matters in their own hands. They are told with condescending contempt to grow up, move over, evolve, look the other way, abstain, close the eyes, move on - and for engagement, teased to enter the rigged political ring where they can be knocked out silly by political lynching. Both sides do the lynching and moral policing, it is just that their arena are different, and they pick their confrontations where they have the home advantages.

#45
Sumanth
February 11, 2009
12:11 PM

I have linked to Flickr, so do not censor it.

This shows human rights violations on Indian culture.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaushikbiswas/3102119546/

#46
Roshan
URL
February 11, 2009
01:35 PM

What exactly do you want to convey with those picture Sumanth?

IMO,what those pics show is Police high handedness in India. It doesn't seem like a riot or agitation so handling of people like that by our cops shows disrespect for human rights.

It is these that our culture police should be raising their voice against and try and get Police Reforms across the country rather than waste their time dictating how people should be living their lives.

#47
SD
February 11, 2009
02:09 PM

My god. A police officer holding a teenage girl by her hair or a person putting up a picture of an inebriated girl with her boob exposed is what should create an outcry from the truly decent public. Not the fact that she is drunk. It is OK for people to be drunk. There are plenty people who lie drunk in ditches. How does THAT not harm your CULTURE????

This picture on Flickr is an obscene demonstration of what lengths such moral police can go to. It is sad and unfair that in a nation that calls itself democratic a woman who there is no way of finding out if she is truly drunk or has passed out from being drugged has to bear with such public humiliation.

I will be writing to Flickr to point out that a drunk woman's exposed photo has been put up for the public by Mr.Kaushik Biswas.

This is quite similar to the sex scandal that had taken place a few years ago where girls were drugged or tricked into drinking alcohol so they could then be disrobed, photographed and blackmailed.

So much for Indian culture.

#48
Roshan
URL
February 11, 2009
02:21 PM

Found an interesting quote by Ayn Rand which struck a chord. I has used it a old blog post of mine.

"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities. "
-Ayn Rand

They cannot claim to be defenders of anything really!

#49
Anamika
February 11, 2009
05:17 PM

There is also little evidence that the young woman in the picture was drunk. Had she been assaulted by the moral police for not wearing "appropriately Indian clothing"? That may well be the case.

Agree with #47 and 48: The photos reveal more about how high handed and callous our police is (moral or official) and how they continue to maintain a colonial mindset of "controlling" the population rather than the democratic logic of serving communities.

Btw, I shall be writing to Flickr as well to point out that the pics are unacceptable.

#50
Kerty
February 11, 2009
05:19 PM

Roshan

Actually, individual is not a minority or powerless entity in a modern state-craft as state stands on the axis of state-individual to the exclusion of all else that comprise of a nation/civilization. Other than individual and female gender and their rights, modern state recognizes nothing - it orphans all other institutions including family, community, culture, morality, religion and unleashes various individualism-centric ideologies to actively dis-enfranchise and dis-empower them.

#51
Anamika
February 11, 2009
05:21 PM

There is also little evidence that the young woman in the picture was drunk. Had she been assaulted by the moral police for not wearing "appropriately Indian clothing"? That may well be the case.

Agree with #47 and 48: The photos reveal more about how high handed and callous our police is (moral or official) and how they continue to maintain a colonial mindset of "controlling" the population rather than the democratic logic of serving communities.

Btw, if you go to the bottom of the page on that link to Flickr pic, there is a report abuse option. It takes only a second.

#52
Kerty
February 11, 2009
05:24 PM

Roshan

Actually, 'individual' is not a minority or powerless entity in a modern state-craft as state stands on the axis of state-individual to the exclusion of all else that may comprise of a nation/civilization. Other than individual and female gender and their rights, modern state recognizes nothing - it orphans all other institutions including family, community, culture, morality, religion and unleashes various individualism-centric ideologies to actively dis-enfranchise and dis-empower them.

#53
Anon
February 11, 2009
06:12 PM

Looks like everyone has been able to gather quite a bit of information from four flicker photos. The reactions were expected. I wish that people will be just as sensitive when they see a man being manhandled by the police. A person is a person, and there cannot be special rules for men and women when it comes to human rights.

#54
kerty
February 11, 2009
06:19 PM

Anamika

Picture often does not tell the whole story. This picture does not give whole lot of clues other than a shabbily dressed young lady is being apprehended by a lady police(not the moral police)

- Picture does not show obvious clues if she is drunk or drugged out. She appears to be so, but it is hard to establish it conclusively from only couple of snapshots where her face is blocked.

- She seems to be resisting and not cooperating with the lady police - picture does not give any clues why she is doing that and why police had to use force on her. If she was drugged out or caught during an act of crime or was she resisting arrest for some reason, that may explain her inability to cooperate with police and police needing to use force to make her comply.

- The police lady seems untrained in handling the situation. Her use of force appears excessive in absence of vital details surrounding this event. On a man, the same force may not appear excessive, but mere mangled clothes of a woman is enough to make it appear molestation or excessive force. This lady is not suitably dressed to handle even minor shakes or pulls of a hostile arrest.

- the lady is shabbily dressed that can not withstand any sudden body movements - like falling down, being pushed, being pulled or thrown aground

- Had this been a picture of a man being apprehanded by a police, would it invoke same reactions?

- If it were a male police or a 'moral' police in this picture, can you imagine the outrage it would have generated? This would hardly be contained to Flickr. It would be all over media, all over world, even BBC and NY/LA times would jump in to have their way with it. Instead of clamoring to remove the trace of this event from Flickr, the same people would be clamoring to paste it all over media for months until next elections.

#55
Kaiser_Soze
February 11, 2009
06:27 PM

Ladies & Gents,

Here are the relevent youtube videos(I hope I got the right incident).

You be the judge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMfJtFqQlbw&feature=PlayList&p=908A6D855A427159&playnext=1&index=4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPVMj4H6XSM&feature=related

#56
Anon
February 11, 2009
06:32 PM

"It is these that our culture police should be raising their voice against and try and get Police Reforms across the country rather than waste their time dictating how people should be living their lives."

Shouldn't "non-culture-police" also be raising their voice and try and get police reforms across the country rather than waste their time in pink chaddi campaigns and smear campaigns against conservatives? Is it the duty of the conservatives, SIFF, culture police, etc. to fight for police reforms while the spoiled liberals sit on the sidelines and do some mudslinging every now and then and dictate what more needs to be done? When any DC commentator who has experienced police highhandedness talks about it, people so easily brush it aside saying "get a good lawyer", "get over your anger issues, "I am not interested in this cause", "this is not relevant to the topic" etc. A few flicker photos showing a girl whose hair is being pulled, with her boob exposed caused much outrage and the best thing one can do is "write to flicker". But the "culture police" should change their agenda and fight for police reforms. Nice!

#57
Anon
February 11, 2009
06:37 PM

Kerty #54

Very well said!

#58
Anon
February 11, 2009
06:47 PM

"Btw, if you go to the bottom of the page on that link to Flickr pic, there is a report abuse option. It takes only a second."

Yeah. That's even easier than writing to flicker. What is abuse here? Taking the picture? Posting the picture? Interpreting the picture? Drinking till you don't know that your clothes are out of place? Or a female cop pulling another female by her hair?

Why should the pictures be removed if you want to showcase police high-handedness? Because they allow each one to do their own "thematic appreciation" and because it is not convenient and graphic enough to nail who you call the "culture police" ?

#59
kerty
February 11, 2009
06:49 PM

Kaiser

That is the live news footage of the same event. It seems z-news covered it. It seems to have made no ripples in India for obvious reasons - the girls were really indefensible and not even feminists would dare defend them. Don't these girls examplify the pink sena of 'pub-loving, loose and forward women'?

Is there a transcript of this news broadcast? It would help correct wrong conclusions being drawn from the picture shown on Flikr.

#60
Anon
February 11, 2009
06:56 PM

Kaiser_soze,

Thanks for the video links.

I wonder if youtube will be told to take them out too.

#61
Kaiser_Soze
February 11, 2009
07:00 PM

Unfortunatly there I dont have the trascript. But as you mentioned, it is pretty obvious. They were drunk as a skunk and no Ram Sena was involved, hence its not newsworthy.

Think Bangkok and sex tourism. We are getting there.

#62
Kaiser_Soze
February 11, 2009
07:06 PM

Unfortunatly I dont have the trascript. But as you had mentioned it is pretty obvious. They were drunk as a skunk and no Ram Sena was involved, hence its not news worthy.

Think Bangkok and sex tourism. We are getting there, soon.

#63
Kerty
February 11, 2009
07:10 PM

Sumanth

Hopefully, you have downloaded the pictures from Flickr and videos from youtube before they get pulled down from there.

#64
Anon
February 11, 2009
07:18 PM

I have the pics. Not sure how to download videos from youtube.

#65
kerty
February 11, 2009
07:25 PM

Anon

You can use this link to download any youtube video - just paste the youtube link there. It downloads as FLV file. You might need flv player to play it or convert it to AVI files using some utility software. I use VLC player to play FLV files. You can Google for VLC player to download it for free.

http://www.techcrunch.com/get-youtube-movie/

#66
Anon
February 11, 2009
07:41 PM

Thanks, Kerty. I downloaded the videos.

#67
Suresh Ram
February 11, 2009
08:38 PM

And Valentine's Day really isn't even a two-way street. Men are utterly irrelevant except to serve as pawns in this commercial game, emptying their wallets in order to satisfy their lovers or those around them. Oh yea, retailers know the con game.

Most of these guys are hapless saps who have ignored their wives or girlfriends all year, so they buy the flowers and candy, and set a reservation at one of the city's most expensive restaurants, all to say, "Honey, I love you."

Ladies, and men, stop it! It's time to say enough is enough with Valentine's Day.

What do I want? How about men and women loving, caring and sharing the other 364 days a year? February 14 isn't the only time to send flowers to your woman (ladies, we wouldn't mind getting a surprise delivery as well!). How about dropping her a flower arrangement on May 14? And on that card you need to write, "Just because..."

Instead of men and women spicing up their sex life on February 14, make the effort to satisfy your mate the rest of the year.
By Roland Martin
CNN Contributor
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/11/martin.valentine/index.html

#68
kerty
February 11, 2009
08:58 PM

Liberty is not libertinism
Kanchan Gupta

"...the disdain which the pink chaddi brigade and charlatans who pose as emancipators of women and ostensibly believe that emancipation lies in sipping Bacardi or chasing whiskey while blowing smoke rings have for local community sensitivities, which are often casually referred to as local culture and tradition. Just because lip-locking or similar public display of carnal attraction (which is not to be confused with love) raises no eyebrows in the West does not mean the East must ape the mating game. It is immaterial whether individuals are comfortable with licentious behaviour in front of others. What is material and important is whether those around the individuals -- in a street, a park, a café or a restaurant -- are comfortable with it; if they feel discomfited or outraged, then their sensitivities must over-ride the presumed right to make a spectacle of yourself in public."


Full article
http://www.dailypioneer.com/155693/Liberty-is-not-libertinism.html

#69
Chandra
February 11, 2009
09:24 PM


It is campaigns like these that provide credibility to fringe clowns like Muthalik. Muthalik's fringe group lost all seats they contested in during the assembly election. A campaign like this will not weaken them, it will provide them with free publicity to raise more funds and be an even bigger pain. Good luck to whoever thought of such a naive idea.

#70
Ledzius
February 11, 2009
11:28 PM

A couple of days ago I bought an extension nipple for bathroom use that I figured I don't need.

I have 3 choices - to return it, to send it to Mutalik, or to send it to the organisers of the pink chaddi campaign.

Still deciding which one to do.

#71
Suresh Ram
February 12, 2009
03:20 AM

Sri Rama Sene activists just pushed around women who were drinking at the Mangalore pub. But if Durga Sene had led the attack, we would have beaten them with slippers.'' Not Pramod Mutalik speaking but Manchaleshwari Naik, leader of Durga Sena, the SRS women's wing.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Bangalore/Durga_Sene_goes_one_up_on_Rama_Sene/articleshow/4114706.cms

#72
MK
February 12, 2009
05:14 AM

Somehow the most prevailing arguemnt to justify the mangalore event is it is ok for everybody to discipline our children as they see fit. Rubbish. The only person allowed to discipline the child is thier parents(lets leave the scenario where parents are incapable of parenting, shall we) and good are bad they are responsible for the outcome. Bad does not mean he/she was drinking/chatting in a pub.

Many people seem to take refuge in "hindu culture" for want of a better arguement. It is good to keep in mind that at the end every individual is resposnsible for his /own actions and the karmic laws of the universe would take care of the rest. The only rule the individual need to follow is the laws of the land.

I am sure muthalik will give his life for the cause of hindu culture the biggest problem now is to determine which regions(tamil,hindi heartland, karnatak, andhra etc) hindu culture is more hindu. once that is done all of us can adapt it. What say ?

I am not surprised that this event happened, it is not new in our country, but i am surprised that people attempt to defend this.


#73
A reader
February 12, 2009
05:38 AM

Now waht you will send to Durga sena chief?
It also evident in maximum pub the fight women vs women......!!!
Do not balme men , it is women is the main enemey of women and it is man is the main enemy of man, that is the reality and god created.
We indian men had been fooled since years , women vs women fight and we man sacrifice our life, history wittness.
Durga Sene goes one up on Rama Sene
12 Feb 2009, 0356 hrs IST, TNN
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
Hubli: "Sri Rama Sene activists just pushed around women who were
drinking at the Mangalore pub. But if Durga Sene had led the attack,
we would have beaten them with slippers.'' Not Pramod Mutalik speaking
but Manchaleshwari Naik, leader of Durga Sena, the SRS women's wing.

This 24-year-old leader has been its state convener since it was
formed seven years ago. She not only shares Mutalik's thoughts, but
her feelings about those who violate mores of Indian culture seem to
be more intense.

She is currently involved in sending pink saris to the group that's
trying to send pink chaddis to Mutalik. She thinks it's the most
polite yet fitting reply. According to her, over 950 women have
already registered with the Durga Sena to send saris.

She strongly condemned the pink chaddi idea. "It's not an insult to
Mutalik or the SRS. It is an insult to Indian culture," she said. The
group should be ashamed, she said. She feels strongly about
Valentine's Day. "That's not part of Indian culture. We will not let
any boy and girl celebrate it," she said.

She will organize a protest against Valentine's Day in Bijapur. Durga
Sena activists will also see that those caught celebrating will either
be asked to get married or turned over to the police.

Born in Bijapur, Naik is married to a cloth merchant in Hukkeri. The
homemaker was an ABVP activist in college.

#74
A reader
February 12, 2009
05:50 AM

Now do you know why NCW is silent ?
This the truth what NCW investigations said.
If the girls feel they were not doing anything wrong why are they
afraid to come forward and give a statement? When I met the culprits
and asked for the names or numbers of at least one girl they refused
saying they do not want to defame these girls. They say girls of some
of the big shots are involved.

. What is the outcome of your visit?

A. We visited the place and found that basically the pub that was
attacked had no security. Anybody could just walk in or walk out. I
have learnt from sources that there was live band going for which
there was no permission. We have examined the documents and we are
not happy with the answers given by the management. What has happened
there is unfortunate but the management has no right to run the pub.
My visit will certainly have a positive impact with regard to the
safety and security of women in Mangalore.

A. What is your assessment of the incident?

B. We have found that some illegal activities are going on in some
hotels and pubs in Mangalore, including prostitution. We conducted a
surprise raid on one of the hotels and found that not everything was
going on legally.

Q. With these findings what are going to be your recommendations to
the government?

A. National Commission for Women will recommend the cancellation of
license of this pub. The pub was given license to serve food for the
lodge. They did not have the license to have a live band. They did
not have the basic requirement of appointing a security guard.

Q. But this is not the basic issue people are concerned about. The
main issue is whether it was right on the part of the self-styled
moral policemen to attack women?

A. In fact I have met the 27 culprits who are locked up in the sub
jail. They have apologized saying it was not their intention to
attack women. They wanted the live band to be stopped but somehow it
went out of hand. I am shocked that an incident has occurred in
Mangalore. It is disgusting to know women were beaten up.

Q. You have failed to meet any of the women victims who were attacked.
Does it signify your failure?

A. Women should protect themselves. They should have come forward and
filed a complaint. So far no girl or their parents have come forward
to file a complaint. If the girls feel they were not doing anything
wrong why are they afraid to come forward and give a statement? When
I met the culprits and asked for the names or numbers of at least one
girl they refused saying they do not want to defame these girls. They
say girls of some of the big shots are involved. But at no stage I
can condone their grotesque act of beating women in public.

Q. It gives an impression that you have developed a soft corner for
the culprits....

A. No. I recommend that the culprits should be given the harshest
punishment possible for taking the law in their hands and violating
the basic rights of women. They should be charged under section 307
and should not be spared at any cost.

Q. Do you feel the police have done their duty impartially?

A. I think the police have done what they could do under the
circumstances. They have arrested the culprits and IGP has kept us
informed about the steps they have taken in this regard.

Q. Finally what have you realized from this incident?

A. In our country the normal mindset is men protect women when the
situation demands. Here the situation has reversed and we will see
what best can do to ensure such incidents are curbed altogether.

#75
Ravi Kulkarni
February 12, 2009
09:48 AM

Dear Kerty (#44),

"V-day or pubbing has nothing to do with love."

Agreed with that one. But it should be left up to individuals to decide what is good for them.

"The coersion is subtle, powerful, and works thru peer pressure."

True, but there are many such pressures in the society. You can't resort to force to counter each one of those.

"So we need elections to define and defend them and only politicians are allowed? Morality and culture is not a state subject. People and communities define and dictate them, they always have, and they always will. Subjecting them to individualism, to state fiats, to political ideologies is a form of cultural war."

No need to make morality and culture a state subject. But use of force is a state subject in a civilized and democratic society, unless you prefer anarchy.

"...to which, people are forced to react outside the parameters of democracy and laws. "

Any group of people can choose their own set of parameters to "act outside the parameters of democracy and laws". This is what happens in Afghanistan and look where it has taken them.

"What Hindu ethos? First, you assert that there is no such thing as Hindu ethos or culture and than claim defending them goes against it?"

Don't quote me out of context. You mentioned culture wars, and I said the culture has always supported differing views and there is no force on anyone to do what others are doing. I am a Hindu and very proud of my culture and ethos.

"You want communities and localities to evolve to such cultural and moral nihilism without debate, discussion or protests?"

I welcome debates and legitimate protests.Since when did beating up helpless women become part of Hindu ethos and culture? If anything that is "cultural and moral nihilism without debate, discussion or protests."

Look, I detest Valentine's day (and Christmas, Mother's Day, Father's Day) as anyone else for the commercial extravagance they have come to represent. When we Indians imitate west to make them part of our lives without realizing the underlying corporate interests, we are being stupid. There is nothing inherently wrong about youngsters meeting each other. We can't stop the nature. If don't allow it in public they will do it in private. Driving such behavior, I am not sure it is even objectionable, underground will not work and it has never worked. It just makes criminals out of more people, helping police and other administrators become even more corrupt.

If you don't like something, express it as an opinion. Write to news papers, or hold a peaceful demonstration against it. But resorting to violence just shuts down all the dialogue. If you think the present laws are too permissive, write to your legislator, or elect new legislators that will pass new laws to your liking.I think all this should be obvious in a democratic setting, and I am surprised that I have to give this civics lesson.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

#76
Sumanth
February 12, 2009
09:57 AM

Regarding the Videos of Drunken Females
=======================================

In 13th Century, Tulsi Das wrote,"a woman's mind is like a river, it goes anywhere unless there is embankment".

After studying attitudes of men and women in today's world, I can say that to be true even today.

Men think structurally. They firmly put structures around them and use these structures to plan and to create limits, boundaries for themselves and also others.

Women with more broader communicate between both sides of the brain tend to be vague about such structures and keep shifting their "reference lines of the axes", where ever they want.

This makes women reckless, when they have complete freedom and power. This also makes women completely adaptable to any situation.

This simply means, Sati Savitri can become a regular one-night stand slut, if the environment is changed.

Where as men with their internal structures resist the environment, if it is different from what they are used to.

Men create structures (boundaries and limits) not only for themselves, but also for other men, women, children or society. In that sense all men ever born are "True Conservatives".

#77
Ravi Kulkarni
February 12, 2009
10:02 AM

Dear MK,

"I am not surprised that this event happened, it is not new in our country, but i am surprised that people attempt to defend this."

Well said. This is a very dangerous phenomenon. When a few people usurp power to dictate what does and does not occur in a society, even when the laws are clearly against their stand, it is time to wake up and take notice. Such incidents should be condemned harshly and dealt with harshly. I am sure there will be some supporters, but they are far and few between. We are not as helpless as some in the Islamic countries.

Regards,

Ravi

#78
Roshan
URL
February 12, 2009
10:07 AM

@Sumanth

What rubbish is that!! I can't believe you think like that, let alone write it in a public blog comment!

This shows utter disrespect you have for one half of humankind! Till now I respected you because you seemed to have a cause you believed in. That comment of yours just makes me sad that there are educated, urban people who think like that in the country. I really feel sorry for you that you have such narrow minded thoughts and approach to things!

#79
kerty
February 12, 2009
10:08 AM

MK

"The only person allowed to discipline the child is thier parents(lets leave the scenario where parents are incapable of parenting, shall we) and good are bad they are responsible for the outcome"

Than why not let only those parents whose kids were punished worry about it and complain? Why people like you whose kids were not punished by Rama sena are so worked up and outraged? How did something that did not effect you as parent became your business? Parents of those girls are not complaining, so why is media and feminists so worked up? They should speak up only when their kids are punished.

"It is good to keep in mind that at the end every individual is resposnsible for his /own actions and the karmic laws of the universe would take care of the rest. The only rule the individual need to follow is the laws of the land."

Why even have or follow laws of the land? Why not leave it all to Karmic laws? Why jail of those 27 Rama sena activists? Let karmic laws of universe take care of them. Why agitate over manglore incident? Why should even parents agitate if their kids are punished - they too can leave it up to Karmic laws.

"biggest problem now is to determine which regions(tamil,hindi heartland, karnatak, andhra etc) hindu culture is more hindu. once that is done all of us can adapt it."

No problem. You can't go wrong it you respect whatever people surrounding you like to live by in any given locality. Hindu culture lives in communities and localities - so there is never an issue of whose culture is more hindu. When in Rome, do as Romans do.

#80
Roshan
URL
February 12, 2009
10:15 AM

@Kerty

"Than why not let only those parents whose kids were punished worry about it and complain? Why people like you whose kids were not punished by Rama sena are so worked up and outraged? How did something that did not effect you as parent became your business? Parents of those girls are not complaining, so why is media and feminists so worked up? They should speak up only when their kids are punished."

I'll tell you why we are worked up. When parents worry about their kids and punish them, they do not bother with what my kid does, ever. But when goons attack those parent's kids, it could be my kid tomorrow or you kid. It could even be you or me who's attacked on some other pretext.

That is why we are worked up. It's those young girls today; tomorrow it could be us or our loved ones!

#81
Roshan
URL
February 12, 2009
10:18 AM

@Kerty

"Than why not let only those parents whose kids were punished worry about it and complain? Why people like you whose kids were not punished by Rama sena are so worked up and outraged? How did something that did not effect you as parent became your business? Parents of those girls are not complaining, so why is media and feminists so worked up? They should speak up only when their kids are punished."

I'll tell you why we are worked up. When parents worry about their kids and punish them, they do not bother with what my kid does, ever. But when goons attack those parent's kids, it could be my kid tomorrow or you kid. It could even be you or me who's attacked on some other pretext.

That is why we are worked up. It's those young girls today; tomorrow it could be us or our loved ones!

#82
bharati
URL
February 12, 2009
10:22 AM

the news is because women were beaten up for being drunk.
Womens organisations in warangal and vijayawada routinely have smashed the drinking places where men enjoy their drinks with some moral reasons of their own .

Nobody raised voice against that .

When men are beaten for being drunk I didn;t speak out then they came for me

#83
bharati
URL
February 12, 2009
10:39 AM

@roshan
I am shocked at your attitude . you bring nothing to debate you just abuse people who are debating and bringing things to lite

#84
Suresh Ram
February 12, 2009
11:01 AM

What one should do when a minor Girl is exploited sexually(ofcourse with her consent in a public place) Inform Police?
Then you are suspected "suspected" sangh parivar activist!!!

Girl commits suicide after alleged humiliation
12 Feb 2009, 1559 hrs IST, PTI

MANGALORE: In a tragic fallout of moral policing in the city, a teenaged girl allegedly committed suicide after suspected Sangh Parivar activists ...
A group of suspected Sangh Parivar activists stopped the bus and took them to Maroor police station. Police then called Ashwini's parents and handed her over to them.

Unable to bear the humiliation, the girl committed suicide by hanging herself at her house on Wednesday night, police said.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Girl-ends-life-after-over-moral-policing/articleshow/4118319.cms

#85
Kerty
February 12, 2009
11:08 AM

Roshan

You probably missed the sarcasm part in that post. Absurd arguments deserve sarcasm.

This notion that whatever teens/adults do in public domain is nobody's business, and we should leave it up to their parents or Karmic laws is ludicrous. If you are a parent, better be a responsible one and be watchful how you raise your kids and what they are up to - because when they step out of your nest, and step on other people's toes, those people won't care whose kids they are.

#86
Aditi N
February 12, 2009
11:21 AM

Roshan: It is admirable that as a 23 year old Indian man you have actually slightly resuscitated my failing faith in Indian men. I find it commendable that you are logically arguing with these morons who by the way are claiming that you are "abusing people" (#83) just to push your buttons.

Having seen so many Siffers on this site and through my own experiences, I had just accepted that this how most Indian men are. And then you come along and bring us hope :) It makes me feel like maybe the coming generation is better. It reminds me that as a changing world we are only going to move forward.

On a more somber note, I do wish your talent and eloquence was not being wasted on some of these morons. They are not worth it. Seriously.

I have learned the hard way that you can argue with people and exhaust them or even plant some seeds of doubt in their minds. But what you cannot do is change their values. Someone raised these people and put a lot of time in molding their moralities. Now its set in stone. You and I cannot undo that.

#87
Slime_id
February 12, 2009
11:35 AM

whatever aditi said is true, just change the word siffer to "feminist women". u can't change them...

the same aditi once challenged rama and said sita was not treated well. she forgets surphanakas who got sita to lanka in first place.

feminists r the modren day surpanakas. that includes aditi...

#88
Anamika
February 12, 2009
11:35 AM

Roshan dont bother with the trolls...they dont actually have an argument, just narrowminded prejudices and ignorance.

Aditi - go on to the Pink Chaddi campaign group and you'll see a lot of Indian men very much like Roshan who are offended, shocked and disgusted by the kind of patriarchal, retrogressive, prejudiced mindset the Siffers and RamSena nuts demonstrate. There is hope yet! :-)

#89
kerty
February 12, 2009
11:48 AM

Suresh #84

Media won't tell you the whole story. Especially when it finds a political axe to grind and sees a big political issue out of it - so it will only state facts that fit, leaving out the rest.

In this case, the girl's parents are pressing charges against the Moslem boy for sexually abusing their under-age daughter. Those white-knights did not go after those kids out of the blues for no reasons, and media knew the story all along, but chose to give a slanted twist to make hay out of it. Just like they are trying to milk Manglore incident. There is a bigger story there too, but media is fitting only those facts that fit its agenda.

#90
anon
February 12, 2009
12:16 PM

When everyone else is floundering in the dark kerty ALWAYS knows the agenda behind each and every happening in the world. Nothing can miss him because he is God.

#91
AnArch
URL
February 12, 2009
12:31 PM

Girl commits suicide after alleged humiliation

MANGALORE: In a tragic fallout of moral policing in the city, a teenaged girl allegedly committed suicide after suspected Sangh Parivar activists
publicly humiliated the girl for being friend with a Muslim boy and handed both of them to police.

Sixteen-year-old Ashwini, a student of class ninth at the Aikala High School in Kinnigoli, along with her friend had gone to Maroor near Moodabidri in a bus on Tuesday afternoon.

A group of suspected Sangh Parivar activists stopped the bus and took them to Maroor police station. Police then called Ashwini's parents and handed her over to them.

Unable to bear the humiliation, the girl committed suicide by hanging herself at her house on Wednesday night, police said

#92
kerty
February 12, 2009
12:53 PM

AnArch

There are glaring errors and ommissions in this report. And just like a Flickr picture, people are likely to jump to wrong conclusions and the media report is tailor to do just that.

- It is not a proven fact that Sangh Parivar activists were involved in this incident. The arrested boys claim to be members of some leftist organization that hints of a internal politcal vendetta against the girl's dad who is a leader of a leftist organization. Again, this is based on some media report that are skimpy on details. We do not know full details as yet. Media does not think we should know them.

- The parents of suicide girl believe the moslem had boy abused her and it is that humiliation that caused her to suicide. The parents have filed charges against the moslem boy. If you read this media report, it makes totally opposite claims - that the girl committed suicide because those white knights humiliated her. Is media telling the whole truth or deliberately misleading?

#93
Aditi N
February 12, 2009
01:00 PM

Slime_Id: Gosh I'm so hurt. I'll go cry a little now. Of all the terrible things to have happened to me, I have an SIFF member with such a charming name call me Surpanakha. I thought you Siffers loved me! This comes as such a rude shock.

:)


Anamika: I'm going over to the Chaddi campaign right now and I'm bringing lace. :)

#94
kerty
February 12, 2009
01:43 PM

Anamika

"they dont actually have an argument"

Than as arguments, all that you could offer is epithets, whole post full of nothing but epithets

narrowminded
prejudices
ignorance
offended, shocked and disgusted
patriarchal
retrogressive
prejudiced mindset
RamSena nuts

It seems rational arguments and discussion is not a strong suit of feminists. In the west, they are known as feminzis for a reason.

#95
Slime_id
February 12, 2009
02:07 PM

Sweetie. I dont want you to be hurt!

#96
Roshan
URL
February 12, 2009
02:29 PM

I went through the Vision/Mission statement of the SIFF. There they talk about no bias against any gender in society and about women being self dependent.

But from what those guys write in their comments, that's diametrically opposite to what their Vision/Mission is. Their views are retrogressive and all about keeping women within the confines of their homes. Sumanth, representing SIFF, claims that 'women are reckless when they have freedom and power'. There the self dependent woman vision goes for a toss.

He also claims that men need to be around to provide structure to women. And that women oscillate between being a 'sati savitri' and a slut. If this doesn't smack of bias, I don't know what does.

The vision statement of SIFF should actually be talking about getting rid of the bias its members have against women before talking about their vision for the society!

And what are you guys ranting about and hijacking every single post on culture or in rights and freedom? Didn't the government recently amend the CrPC where by there wont be anymore arrests under 498a? Isn't the system working at correcting the wrongs?

And regarding the men and women arrested, for whom your heart bleeds for, the conviction rate is around 20% in 2007. So are you telling me that even the 20% of reported cases of Domestic Violence is made up? I find that difficult to believe.

So now you have a law where arrests cannot happen and conviction rate is at 20%. Things are looking up for your cause! So chill and stop hijacking discussion on blogs with your agenda.

And since I don't throw random figures around, here's the source of my info

#97
Reason
February 12, 2009
02:56 PM

Reason says Roshan rocks.

And Slime_id brings love to a debate! Awwwwww (#95)
May I suggest being armed with an argument next time around?!

#98
kerty
February 12, 2009
02:58 PM

Roshan

"The vision statement of SIFF should actually be talking about getting rid of the bias its members have against women before talking about their vision for the society!"

What bias? He has merely taken a side just as you have. Does't that make you biased too? Both sides represent two conflicting visions of womenhood.

One vision wants women to be home-maker and sati-savitri. The other vision wants women to be home-breaker and slut. One vision wants women to be part of a social unit, the opposing vision requires women to be independent form it. One vision wants men and women to be Rama and sita, the other vision wants to recruit them to be Ravana and Surpankha. Both sides want their respective visions to be adopted by whole society and by all women. Fulfillment of both visions require women to use their freedoms, except that it is considered 'freedom' or 'empowerment' only if women pick a particular vision - therein lies the real bias.

#99
Slime_id
February 12, 2009
02:59 PM

Roshan,

The demand is simple. Domestic Violence case, if you have ever read it means that only husband can be aggressors and wives victims.

This is not true in USA , but in India it was forcibly made gender unequal.

#100
Slime_id
February 12, 2009
03:02 PM

We want more rights to fathers and shared parenting.
This basic rules are ignored by current laws

#101
Slime_id
February 12, 2009
03:08 PM

498A, This law is a tool. Some women leaders call it brahmastra.

Make as many laws as possible, the choice is yours.
498A is already defined as a terrorist tool to harass victims. As Society does not care for victims for these antimale laws, somebody has to care. As long as you justify these antimale laws, you will find us opposing.

Please take a moment to read these laws carefully and see how terrorizing they can be. Women want these laws. The same people who align themselves as human right activists! They care a damn for Men, in the name of greater good of women.

#102
Ravi Kulkarni
February 12, 2009
03:10 PM

Dear Kerty,

"One vision wants men and women to be Rama and sita, the other vision wants to recruit them to be Ravana and Surpankha."

Presuming your vision is that of Rama-Sita, would you also have the woman take a subservient role in society as Sita had to?

Regards,

Ravi

#103
Slime_id
February 12, 2009
03:10 PM

We want equal benefits to Men and Women. We also want 1 Lakh rupees given to a poor boy born in a BPL family.

Why single out gender in poor families? Do we want to create a gender preference in poor families?

#104
Slime_id
February 12, 2009
03:14 PM

We want Men's minsitry. If Women have their own ministry and their own commision, animals have their own ministry, why should Men not have their Ministry.

We are asking for our rights as defined in UN Charters based on gender equality and as defined in Article 21 of our constitution.

#105
kerty
February 12, 2009
03:26 PM

Roshan

"hijacking every single post on culture or in rights and freedom?"

That is because culture, rights and freedom are hijacked by 'individual' and 'feminism'. When you make rights and freedoms individual-centric, it ends up disenfranchising culture, and when you make them female/gender-centric, it disenfranchises the male population - either way, you would have many pissed people on your hand whenever you raise these thorny issues. In a media or blog, one can get around them by ignoring them or censuring them, but there is no escape from it in real world. If you can't deal with it or make arguments or convince in the microcosm that such forums represent, forget being able to pull it off against world at large where audiences are not likely to be any more friendly, educated, captive or docile.

#106
Kerty
February 12, 2009
04:06 PM

Ravi

"Presuming your vision is that of Rama-Sita, would you also have the woman take a subservient role in society as Sita had to?"

There you go. Roshan characterized it as keeping women confined to home. And you characterize it as subservient role in society. Hindus would take serious offense at such slander because it demeans their own mothers and grandmothers and forefathers - they don't see, in their moms and grand-moms, any confinement or subservience. Hindus have the highest respect for their mothers and grandmothers. To view family-making and home-making as confinement and subservience is an insult to millions of women who are doing it for their families even as we speak.

To characterize Sita as subservient or had a subservient role adds only insult to the injury.

Sita is one of the most revered icon of Hindu society - she has defined Indian womanhood and shaped generations of Indian women for thousands of years. How can you say she is less powerful in Hindu society?

How can you say Sita was less powerful in Rama Rajya? She was instrumental in pulling down the whole Ravan-raj. She was no less a partner in the new vision of Rama Rajya - which rested on an idealization of womanhood that Sita embodied. She may not have shared the throne with Rama, the king, but Sita was always loved by Lord Rama, the ideal husband and ideal lover. If you want to compare who has most impact on Indian civilization and who shaped it the most - it would not be Lord Rama, but it is Sita. You will need more than feminism, statism, individualism or whatever other ism you can muster to import in order to take Sita down.

#107
Ravi Kulkarni
February 12, 2009
04:32 PM

Dear Kerty,

Me no supporter of Feminism or any other ism. All you have done is to put Sita on a pedestal which is really a red herring. Because you are conveniently ignoring the fact that Rama had the temerity to send her to live in forest again. This despite the fact that it was not her fault that she was kidnapped by Ravana. Rama's justification was some rumor and innuendo. If he had any sense of integrity and justice, he would have abdicated the throne again in Bharata's favor and gone with his pregnant wife who needed him the most.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

#108
Kerty
February 12, 2009
05:17 PM

Ravi

"All you have done is to put Sita on a pedestal which is really a red herring."

On the other hand, we have put Rama on a pedestal and give real power to Sita. Indian civilization rests on the idealization of Sita, not lord Rama.

#109
Kerty
February 12, 2009
05:21 PM

Ravi

"you are conveniently ignoring the fact that Rama had the temerity to send her to live in forest again."

That was a morality play that was needed to raise the debate and define the contours of Rama Rajya, a civilization which ended up giving a pivotal role to women in it, without which, such a civilization can not sustain.

Instead of making the caricature of this morality play, I suggest you read authentic interpretation of this event in Uttar Ramayana or watch a serial by Ramananad Sagar who has dealt with this episode in a fair manner.

#110
Suresh Ram
February 12, 2009
07:12 PM

[spam]

#111
ajay
February 12, 2009
09:52 PM

Kerty, when you say "..read authentic interpretation of this event.", I am guessing that you actually believe that the Ramayana occurred.

Don't you think that the Ramayana is just a story, perhaps a good moral one at that, and nothing more?

#112
Kerty
February 12, 2009
10:21 PM

Ajay

Hindus believe Ramayana is not a story or myth, folklore or fiction or mere metaphor. Ramayana is part of 'Purana' - which translates as historical treatise. That is what Hindus believe and that is all that matters as far as hindus are concerned.

#113
MK
February 12, 2009
11:21 PM

Kerty

Drinking in public domain (read a Pub) is allowed by the laws of the land, please do not think that the goons who perpetrated this are wise enough to decide if that is good or bad. The reason why we have laws is to prevent this kind of subjective interpretation and use whatever methods one see's fit for enforcing.

I do not like your point of view, so I come with 100 people to wherever you hangout and hit you in the name of discipline and blame your parents for that. Excellent, mature way of defending an action. Keep up the good work.




#114
ajay
February 12, 2009
11:50 PM

Kerty, good to hear that you are a spokesperson for all Hindus.

There are Hindus who believe that Ramayana was just a story and do not take everything in it literally.

My point is that it can be stretching things too far to base ones ideas of civilization and rightful conduct on the exact interpretation of an epic story, even if the story has immense cultural significance.

#115
Roshan
URL
February 13, 2009
12:20 AM

@Reason - Thanks!

@kerty
"What bias? He has merely taken a side just as you have. Does't that make you biased too? Both sides represent two conflicting visions of womenhood."

There is one MAJOR difference in him taking a side and me taking a side. He claims to represent an organisation while his thoughts and writings are completely against the vision statement of the organisation. I don't represent any Organisation whose vision and mission is different from my own thoughts and opinions.

"One vision wants women to be home-maker and sati-savitri. The other vision wants women to be home-breaker and slut."

Show me one comment from me or anybody else here who has said their vision is to see women as home breakers and sluts! You called women sluts, I did not.

"One vision wants women to be part of a social unit, the opposing vision requires women to be independent form it."

Which vision are these? Your own SIFF's vision is to see women as self dependent. Are both these vision of SIFF? Doesn't that mean SIFF (or maybe you guys here) are confused about what you want?

"Both sides want their respective visions to be adopted by whole society and by all women. Fulfillment of both visions require women to use their freedoms, except that it is considered 'freedom' or 'empowerment' only if women pick a particular vision - therein lies the real bias. "

I don't want anybody to adopt any vision of mine. I want everyone to be free to live their lives, as long as that freedom doesn't interfere with my freedom. It's you folks who are telling others what to do!

"Hindus would take serious offense at such slander because it demeans their own mothers and grandmothers and forefathers - they don't see, in their moms and grand-moms, any confinement or subservience."

Where in my post did I offend women? Any women making the choice of staying home and being a home-maker is, her choice. And I would respect that because the choice was made of her free will. If a women wants to go out, earn a living, it should be her choice and we should respect that. I respect both choices and I know I do not look down upon home makers. But you do believe that women should only stay at home look after kids and cook for you. That, Kerty, is bias!

"Hindus have the highest respect for their mothers and grandmothers."

And from your comments it seems like in your view of Hindus, no other woman deserves respect!

#116
Roshan
URL
February 13, 2009
12:35 AM

@slime_id
"We want more rights to fathers and shared parenting."

Good, lobby for it. Unfortunately, you seem to want rights to fathers, but have complete disrespect toward those who are 50% responsible for you becoming fathers!

"As long as you justify these antimale laws, you will find us opposing."

I do not justify any law which can be used as a tool to harass people. And you should oppose it. But in your hatred towards this law, you have started hating all of womankind. That's unfortunate. It's like women hating all men because of what Muthalik and his goons did. Well, at least in that case Valentine's day wouldn't be an issue to worry about anymore :)

"We want equal benefits to Men and Women. We also want 1 Lakh rupees given to a poor boy born in a BPL family.

Why single out gender in poor families? Do we want to create a gender preference in poor families?"

Do you know the sex ratio in our country? It's reached alarming rations in a few states. It's because there is a preference for male child and female child is killed after birth or before! That happens more in poorer families than the affluent ones. So the 1 lakh rupees incentive is to get them to accept the girl child.

If we do not correct the inequality in our sex ratios, among other things, you or your sons wont have women they can fall in love with and get married to. That's already happening in places like Haryana where they have to marry women from other parts of the country and there are instances of 2-3 brothers sharing the same wife. What happens to you Indian culture in such a scenario? Or would you accept it because the Pandavas has one wife? It would lead to a lot of sexually frustrated men walking around the country and you can imagine what that's gonna do to the women around. Do you want to encourage such acts or more molestation, rape, polyandry? Is that what SIFF is aiming for?

#117
Kerty
February 13, 2009
12:40 AM

MK

"The reason why we have laws is to prevent this kind of subjective interpretation and use whatever methods one see's fit for enforcing"

In India, laws are deaf, dumb and plain stupid. The popular refrain is that culture, religion, morality, community standards/sensitivities are not matters of laws and should not to be legislated but left to the local communities, and when local communities try press on them, the law book gets thrown at them. Why do you think people have nothing but contempt for laws and law enforcement - because laws and law enforcement are jack ass - why people take matters in their own hands when something they value the most is at stake.

In America, they have zoning laws to control liquor shops and pubs - on top of it, issue of any liquor license require public hearing of local communities and if locals object, liquor license does not get issued to a pub or a restaurant. They have many counties that are dry counties where no liquor can be sold just because people living in those counties think so. Businesses lose their license if they serve to minors or act as prostitute hubs. India lacks such infra-structure to make locals feel safe about having pubs in their communities and they are never consulted when issuing pub licenses. The pub in the Manglore incident had no license for live band or dancing, was attracting seedy elements to engage in prostitution, and probably breaking every other law on the book, and was a public nuisance for the locals. People had complained to the authorities repeatedly but no action was taken to address people's complains. The locals had no recourse left. They used high-sounding rhetoric to justify their mob action, but it was purely local reaction to a local issue. It happens all the time in India. It is not something that would surprise any Indian except Indian media who acts as if it just discovered it to its utter shock and surprise.

#118
Slime_id
February 13, 2009
12:43 AM

Roshan, I support 50% reservation in Parliament for women. You know where I come from.

My fight is against the society that says Men deserve this. by having 1 lakh scheme for girls, it is not empowerment, it is simply not the right way for any child. Why cant we instead give free food, free education to every child in this country.
I know the sex ratio. I also know fathers die earlier in this country. I also know many boys soil in their childhood rather than studying.

who is against women. Women are as equal as man. But you demonise men saying 70% of Indian men commit domestic violence. The goverment shows these statistics. women are also in our fight as such demonising is only for fashion companies to sponsor their products. example: Avon that gave 1 million USD to UNIFEM.


#119
Roshan
URL
February 13, 2009
12:57 AM

@slime
I did not say it was empowerment. It's an incentive, which the government has to provide for people not to kill the girl child! Sad commentary on us as a society I would say.

And what does fathers dying early have anything to do with sex ratio? Is that affecting our sex ratio? Many girls also toil in their childhood instead of studying. And in most cases if parents had a choice, they'd send the boy to school and get the girl to work. I did not say 70% of men indulge in domestic violence. I do not have statistic on it so I will no comment, but I'm sure the number isn't that high. So many men cannot be monsters.

@kerty

The zoning laws etc are present in our laws. Do you vote in your local body elections? Do you happen to know which constituency, which ward you belong to? Do you know who your corporator/councilor is? It's the responsibility of these people to enforce such zoning laws. If you have a liquor shop in a residential area, you should approach them as a community to get it shut, not attack it and people inside it.

As per the 73rd/74th amendment to our constitution, local governance is getting more importance. Laws are being passed to get the community more involved in how their neighborhood must be run. Engage with the system to bring about a change. Do not deride the system and take laws into your own hands or justify people who do it in the name of culture or community.

#120
kerty
February 13, 2009
01:22 AM

Roshan

"The zoning laws etc are present in our laws. Do you vote in your local body elections? It's the responsibility of these people to enforce such zoning laws."

Voting for local bodies is not the same as having local say in cultural/moral matters or local matters. Unless people are invited to public hearing on matters that affect them and given veto powers over decisions, participation in elections means nothing but writing blank power of attorney to the local bodies.

"If you have a liquor shop in a residential area, you should approach them as a community to get it shut, not attack it and people inside it."

Apparently, locals in Manglore incidents did approach the local bodies with their complaints but nothing was ever done. There are big hole in the system and laws and enforcement and actual practice at every level and when you throw them at people to silence them, it makes it all the more inevitable what you fear the most - people finding their own ways the tackle their problems.

#121
Anon
February 13, 2009
01:22 AM

"I want everyone to be free to live their lives, as long as that freedom doesn't interfere with my freedom. It's you folks who are telling others what to do!"

Looks like these Ayyappa devotees infringed upon a teenage girl's freedom to get sexually exploited and because of the humiliation she committed suicide.

"Ayyappa devotees rescued the girl"

http://epaper.dnaindia.com/dnabangalore/newsview.aspx?eddate=2/13/2009&pageno=20&edition=9&prntid=2071&bxid=27948874&pgno=20

#122
MK
February 13, 2009
01:28 AM

Kerty

Then say it for what it is, the pub had no license, illegal activites were happening, authorites did not enforce so the local community acted on it.

That is not what ram sena is saying and that is why the uproar. You were not saying the same thing and were talking about moral degradation and culture war and such and used it enforce your sense of moral values and trying to defend the indefensible.

Mutalik is now talking about doing the same thing all over karnataka, now you see the problem, he has enjoyed the power of anarchy and allowing him to continue will dilute what ever little law enforcement we have in our country.
It only needs a few other idiots to do the same to pick up some moral turpitude and then all hell will break lose.

Let us not defend this by saying that we are already down the slippery slope and I will allow the accelaration to happen.

Roshan has a good solution on how to approach the prescence of a illegal pub. Collecting ten goons and solving this is a pretty lazy but effective way, there are many other effective ways like eliminating the pub owners alltogether, dont you think that will solve the problem once and for all.See where this is going, that is what will happen if these methods are allowed to continue.



#123
Roshan
URL
February 13, 2009
01:38 AM

@Anon,
I'm surprised that you are so callous about sexual exploitation. The meaning of the word 'exploit' implies that there was no free will involved. And the cops are investigating the case. I hope you wont jump up and say that the girl and her family is misusing the law to frame men and take away their rights.

@kerty,
Voting for the local bodies is the same as wanting to play a role in governing your neighborhood. Liquor shops in residential area is a matter of local governance, not of culture. Not wanting to have liquor shops at all, anywhere is a matter of cultural preference. Decide what is it that you want.

You say they did approach the authorities with complaints about the pub. Was it the local or just one organisation? If it were the local did they have enough numbers? Seems like they didn't, which would mean that not many local had strong feelings against the pub, only a few right winged extremist elements.

Read the Bengalure Governance Act put up by Abide. It's the new local governance act replacing the KMC Act 1976. If you have issues with local voice not being heard, put it up in their forums. Be constructive in your approach. They have the concepts of Neighborhood Committees which will have similar powers as you envisage. Again, Engage with the System and bring about a change. Do be so bitter that you stay out of the system completely and complaint about it!!

#124
Reason
February 13, 2009
01:50 AM

All this banter surrounding the SIFF, and still no clue as to what the acronym expands into!

But! Since they're so aptly represented, I'd bet my wise a** it stands for Socially Inept Floundering F***-ups.

Yeaaa yeaa..f*** you too! Have a nice day! :)

#125
kerty
February 13, 2009
02:25 AM

Roshan


"Voting for the local bodies is the same as wanting to play a role in governing your neighborhood."

In India, voting amounts to writing a blank power of attorney to politicians. It transfers power from people to politicians. Most of the time, people do not even have real choice as to who they can choose from the menu as political parties appoint who will run elections from where. Voting empowers government and politicians and political parties to do as they please. You have to be naive to think otherwise.


"Liquor shops in residential area is a matter of local governance, not of culture. "

It is a cultural matter too. And communities can have strong opinion on it. But currently, there is no mechanism to address anything from local cultural or religious point of view other than voting for local bodies that are not geared to handle any cultural or religious matters. So people do it old fashioned way when something violates their cultural or religious sensitivities.

"You say they did approach the authorities with complaints about the pub. Was it the local or just one organisation? If it were the local did they have enough numbers?"

I have stated what I know from the media reports. Do not expect me to produce you numbers or counts of complaints, organizations and persons involved in the complaints. You can't expect whole neighborhood to show up to complaint to the local authority. It is usually done by few prominent people from the affected locality.

"Engage with the System and bring about a change"

It does not work. The system is rigged. It does not like people to engage with it or change it. Especially on matters that are religious, cultural, social. State operates on fiats on those spheres. There is nothing people can do but agitate when they get hit by it.

#126
Roshan
URL
February 13, 2009
02:45 AM

All, right. You aren't even ready to work with the System we have. All you guys do is crib about the System and how it's taking away your rights as men. If you ignore the system, then the system will ignore you conveniently.

What is your solution to prevent misuse of 498a and similar laws? Rant about women and feminist and liberals and the media?? How far will that take you with your cause kerty?

If you do go to the courts, talk to politicians then you are working with the System and at the same time dissing it. If this is true, it shows your organisation's hypocrisy even in this matter!

One liquor shop in a neighborhood is not culture. If you think so, you have a very limited view of what culture should be, and I must say, I'm not surprised.

You quote media reports, I can quote a few others which say nothing of that sort.

The System is rigged and ineffective because there a lot of people like you who just sit in the sidelines and complain about the system. All you do is cry about the system and how badly it treats you. But when it is time to engage and bring about change in the system you shy away from it. And then crib some more about how the system keeps everyone out of it!

Other than voting and engaging with the system what other suggestion do you have? Violence to get your opinions through? Such people are called extremists and will be treated by the system as such. Decide which side you and SIFF wanna be...


#127
Anon
February 13, 2009
03:07 AM

"I'm surprised that you are so callous about sexual exploitation. The meaning of the word 'exploit' implies that there was no free will involved. And the cops are investigating the case. I hope you wont jump up and say that the girl and her family is misusing the law to frame men and take away their rights."

All the above is your own interpretation. I did not use the term "sexual exploitation" callously. I am not the one who jumps to conclusions about pictures and articles. I can show many examples where you did.

The stress in my comment was on "freedom".

#128
Roshan
URL
February 13, 2009
03:24 AM

@anon,
You did not use the term 'sexual exploitation'. But you did say the following

"Looks like these Ayyappa devotees infringed upon a teenage girl's freedom to get sexually exploited and because of the humiliation she committed suicide."

What do you mean by 'girl's freedom to get sexually exploited'? My response was to that sentence and nothing else.

#129
Anon
February 13, 2009
03:26 AM

Roshan,

Can you elaborate on your constructive strategy to work with the system and get your grievances regarding high-handedness of state police and moral police redressed? Do you have any or are you just writing blog posts, comments and sending pink chaddis?

#130
Anon
February 13, 2009
03:46 AM

The girl was going to be sexually exploited (if the report is to be believed). Since it was consensual, according to you, her freedom should be respected. But the Ayyappa devotees infringed on her freedom. It looks like because of the intervention of the Ayyappa devotees she was "saved" from sexual exploitation but then she committed suicide. Since the Ayyappa devotees who "saved" her, and the Bajrang Dal who called the cops were in a way responsible for her suicide, they have to be tried for abetment of suicide. But that has not happened. If her involvement with the exploiter was consensual, no case needs to be filed against Saleem, the so called "exploiter". But a case has been filed against Saleem.

Was infringement of her freedom wrong or the sexual exploitation wrong? What does "freedom" mean in this context?

#131
Roshan
URL
February 13, 2009
03:49 AM

Anon,
The first thing you could do is go out and vote. I know you'll say that's not being constructive, but it's the first step. Get your friends to come out and vote as well.

Second, you were talking about liquor shops in neighborhoods and not police high handedness. Police reforms will take much more sustained action by civil liberty groups and citizens.

As far as the liquor shops and community governance is concerned ( and these were the issues you raised in your comments) know you corporator. Get support from your neighbors regarding any issue you want to take up. Approach your elected representatives as a collective group to put your views across.

Secondly, one of the conditions under the Union JnNURM, state governments have to reform their urban local bodies to continue getting grants after 2010.

If you are a citizen of Bangalore, the state government is in the process of drafting this legislation. abide.in has the details of this act on their website. Volunteer with them, reach out to Abide members and put your views on urban governance such that communities have a greater role in governing their area. The draft has provision for Neighborhood conveners to be elected and to be part of decision making body for their areas. Suggest changes or improvements to this draft law.

Once it's passed, contest the election for Neighborhood conveners and be responsible for the change you want to see in your community. This is just one way you can be part of the system.

Even you moving courts for change in laws or talking to NCW or the government of the day is also working with the system. Resorting to violence as you seem to support tacitly is wokring against the System. All violence will create is more rigid stances from people you want to change.

And yes, I do not set up a organization and then crib about the very System I want to change sitting in the sidelines. Sending Pink Chaddi is a far better way to protest than molesting or beating innocent people up. At least the protest is within the ambit of the rule of law!

You could also try and get police reforms exactly the same way you (SIFF) is trying to get a Men's Welfare Ministry - by organising peaceful protest across the country till the parliament/state legislative pass the laws.

#132
Anon
February 13, 2009
03:58 AM

Roshan,

I did not ask you what I need to do. I asked you what is your strategy to get what you seem to want other than writing on the internet and sending pink chaddis. Or is the above your strategy to reach your goals too?

#133
Roshan
URL
February 13, 2009
04:00 AM

Anon,

Let's get our basics right first. Let me define exploitation for you first. You seem to have misunderstood the word

ex·ploi·ta·tion [ èk sploy táysh'n ]
noun
Definition:

unfair treatment or use: the practice of taking selfish or unfair advantage of a person or situation, usually for personal gain

And from wikipedia
The act of utilizing something in an unjust or cruel manner. It is this meaning of exploitation which is discussed below.

So you see, there is no freedom of choice when someone is exploited, sexually or otherwise. It's being termed as exploitation because of the fact that it wasn't consentual!

If it was consentual sex, and the girl was over 18, Bajrang dal or the Ayyappa devotees have no business interfering in it. If it wasn't I'd say they were good Samaritans.

Now, why she committed suicide is still not known. There are reports that she was in love with the boy and the act of taking her to police station and being humiliated in front of so many people drove her to take her life. I will not comment on this as I do not have the facts on this case.

I hope I've explained what Freedom means here.

#134
Anon
February 13, 2009
04:02 AM

"you were talking about liquor shops in neighborhoods and not police high handedness."

I never talked about liquor shops in neighborhoods.

But you did talk about police high-handedness and moral policing and how much that bothers you.

That is why I am asking you what your strategy is to get your grievances redressed.

#135
kerty
February 13, 2009
04:03 AM

Roshan

"You aren't even ready to work with the System we have."

Its other way around. System is not ready and willing to with with what India is, who Indians are, what India has. Just like valentine day and pub culture, it has been lifted from some where and super-imposed on India.

"If you ignore the system, then the system will ignore you conveniently."

Its the other way around. System ignores what people care about. So people ignore what system cares about.

"What is your solution to prevent misuse of 498a and similar laws? Rant about women and feminist and liberals and the media??"

Why? Is there a problem people opposing them and protesting them?

"If you do go to the courts, talk to politicians then you are working with the System and at the same time dissing it. If this is true, it shows your organisation's hypocrisy even in this matter!"

Why is that a problem? Do people have any other choice? What do you expect people to do? They have no right to even diss the crap?

"One liquor shop in a neighborhood is not culture. If you think so, you have a very limited view of what culture should be"

Why not leave it to the local communities to judge what their culture is or is not? And what they want in their locality or do not want?

"The System is rigged and ineffective because there a lot of people like you who just sit in the sidelines and complain about the system."

We all do what we can by participating in discussion of ideas and issues. But sometimes, it takes more than debates in the media and usual democratic process as system often succumbs to its own inertia and vested interests to ignore and override it. Sometimes, it takes shock therapy, doze of extremism and upheaval, revolutionary uprising to make the system heed and change. Sometimes, you can't change the system from within. Sometimes, you have to reject the system to be able to change it. Sometimes, you can argue your way and make amends in the system. There is no one prescription that fits all situations.

#136
Anon
February 13, 2009
04:07 AM

"you were talking about liquor shops in neighborhoods and not police high handedness."

I never talked about liquor shops in neighborhoods.

But you did talk about police high-handedness and moral policing and how much that bothers you.

That is why I am asking you what your strategy is to get your grievances redressed.

#137
Anon
February 13, 2009
04:14 AM

"there is no freedom of choice when someone is exploited, sexually or otherwise. It's being termed as exploitation because of the fact that it wasn't consentual!"

According to the article, the girl is 15, her involvement with Saleem was consensual, and she was "saved" from sexual exploitation. Would that still make the Ayyappa devotees and Bajrang Dal "good samaritans"?

#138
Anon
February 13, 2009
04:31 AM

"Resorting to violence as you seem to support tacitly is wokring against the System."

I never expressly or tacitly supported violence, not even in a single comment.

Even if someone did, their tacit support to violence would be just as good or bad as your tacit disapproval of human rights abuses that you do nothing else about.

#139
Roshan
URL
February 13, 2009
06:08 AM

Anon, I apolgize, that liquor shop comment was meant to be for Kerty. He brought it up.

If the girl was 15 and she had sex with a man, that would be termed statutory rape. As I said in my comment, if she were 18 or above, it was nobody's business what or whom she had sex with.

I didn't understand what you wanna say here
"and she was "saved" from sexual exploitation. Would that still make the Ayyappa devotees and Bajrang Dal "good samaritans"?"

@kerty,
I wrote up quite a few lines with valid arguments to your comment. But then I decided that there was no point, it wasn't worth it. You will only take my comments, prefix it a 'Why, do you have a problem' and send it back. I cannot keep replying to those. Come back if you have any valid, reasoned arguments. And with an open mind too...

#140
Sumanth
February 13, 2009
08:37 AM

"If the girl was 15 and she had sex with a man, that would be termed statutory rape."

What about boy is 15 and had sex with a woman?

Are such women punished in India?

#141
Roshan
URL
February 13, 2009
09:42 AM

I don't know, but they should be I guess. And at the same time Bajrang Dal should take the boy to the Police Station and call his parents and file case against the woman

#142
Slime_id
February 13, 2009
10:17 AM

Roshan,

NSUI activists from secular congress cant do the same? Can they not help the congress.

why blame bajrang dal, why are you twisted. Do you trust Bajrang dal with upholding laws for men, if they cant do it for women?

The laws need to be upheld not by Bajrang Dal or some secular Italian led party but by ourselves. Thats why I tell a person whenever he is a victim. Dont even blame your parents, fight for your own rights. You come alone in this world, so you fight alone.

#143
kerty
February 13, 2009
10:52 AM

What lies beneath
Sagarika Ghose

"The chasm between the India of pubs and the India of the Sri Rama Sene is growing wider and as economic transformation produces more social unrest, the emerging elite might face more such attacks."

"If we persist in trying to create a mindlessly imitative mythical Las Vegas, we will not be able to defeat the Sri Rama Sene, however many pink panties we may throw at them."


Read full article
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=ViewsEditorialSectionPage&id=ad5d1ac4-6ae8-4666-914b-69e00207cd36&&Headline=What+lies+beneath

#144
Sumanth
February 13, 2009
11:55 AM

No one must police.
People know what is right and wrong.
Its all about personal choices.

The above are couple of manipulative statements used by westernised retards to mislead the people.

If people knew, what is right from wrong in US, then why today 1 out of 4 teenage girls in US have Sexually Transmitted Diseases?


If people know how to handle choices, then why in Britain, not only children are having sex, but also producing babies?


http://ibnlive.in.com/news/brit-dad-is-13-mum-is-15-and-politician-outraged/85267-19.html


London: A leading British politician reacted with outrage after a 13-year-old boy was found to have become a father after having a night's unprotected sex with a girl only two years his senior.

Alfie Patten became a parent to Maisie Roxanne after his 15-year-old girlfriend Chantelle Steadman gave birth four days ago, The Sun reported on Friday.

=========
So, people will self appoint themselves to protect the nation from going to dogs.

We already have many difficulties in the society and we do not need to import more trouble from outside.
=========

In stead of getting the positive aspects of western culture, these morons are importing the shit.



#145
Sumanth
February 13, 2009
01:28 PM

sumanth:

please refrain from pasting UNSUBSTANTIATED blog conversation

#146
Sumanth
February 13, 2009
01:31 PM

please refrain from pasting UNSUBSTANTIATED blog conversation

#147
Anamika
February 13, 2009
06:48 PM

Roshan, I hope you get LOADS of Valentines tomorrow! :-)

Aditi N: Yep, mine are already headed out to Bengaluru. Very pink, very lacy. ;-)

#148
Anon
February 13, 2009
06:56 PM

[unsubstantiated]

#149
Kerty
February 13, 2009
08:06 PM

Banglore post office clerks may be angling to scam the goodies and not deliver them to Rama Sena.(sumanth, if you can confirm this). I do not know what anybody would do with that many ladies undies. One can make quilted dresses out of them and gift them to the poor girls of slums - imagine thousands of slum girls, whom nobody loves except Danny Boyle, receiving these gifts on v-day. But I doubt these post office clerks are charity-minded. They probably would sell them at wholesale to some flea/chor market and make few bucks, or gift them to their valentines for next 100 years. They should sell them at a discounted price back to the Pink Sena for its next pantie protests, that is if Pink Sena decides to make it a regularly scheduled programme. After all, this is a fine Gandhigiri idea and it should build on it and expand it to other worthy causes, especially when you have a battle-tested organization in place, ready to roll. Just to be on a safe side, Pink Sena should send only trashy and torn undies which can not be used or re-sold or mocked. Or they should write 'used pink condoms' on the package so no postal clerk dare steal it. Jai HO

#150
Anon
February 13, 2009
09:00 PM

Kerty,

Here is a better satire regarding Renuka's pub bharo andolan.

http://legalfighter.wordpress.com/2009/02/11/pub-bharo-condom-use-karo-ma/

#151
Sumanth
February 13, 2009
09:08 PM

They arrested 360 people.

SIFF will be protesting right in middle of Bangalore, at Gandhi Statue, MG Road, against violation of Fundamental Rights of Citizens by Renuka Choudhury and NCW.

The protest will start at 10am, Feb 14th. So, another 2 hours remain and the activists are coming from other cities as well.

We already have the permission from Bangalore police for the protest.

On Valentine's Day, we show love to all people of this Nation.

========
Either there will be Freedom for everyone, or there will be freedom for none.
========

By the way, the conversations with Nisha were real. It was on phone, not on blogs.

#152
Anon
February 13, 2009
09:16 PM

"[unsubstantiated]"

#153
smallsquirrel
February 13, 2009
09:40 PM

hey anon, really... it is real? because I have personal contact with Nisha Susan and I can get this substantianted immediately. and if it is not true I can get that site dismantled for misrepresentation and slander.

care to rethink your answer?

#154
Anon
February 13, 2009
09:53 PM

"because I have personal contact with Nisha Susan and I can get this substantianted immediately. and if it is not true I can get that site dismantled for misrepresentation and slander."

Do it, SS. It's not my site. And if not that one someone would post it elsewhere too. Go hunt them all down and get them dismantled. It's your time and patience!

Whether or not it is true, I enjoyed reading it and I am sure many others did too. I thought pink chaddi campaign is about creativity and humor while protesting in a democratic way. Not sure why you are getting so intolerant about it when someone adds to the humor.

You don't have to warn me to do what you want to do. Just do it and write what happened. Let people decide what they want to believe.

#155
Anon
February 14, 2009
12:19 AM

"[unsubstantiated]" #52

SS, please do what you said, substantiate your statements, and get the following site dismantled.

http://legalfighter.wordpress.com/2009/02/13/thrash-women-to-get-chaddis/

If unsubstantiated comments have to be deleted, so many of your DC editors' comments are unsubstantiated. If anyone's statements are unsubstantiated what is the problem in just saying that but still let others read the comment?

#156
Anon
February 14, 2009
12:29 AM

Deepti Lamba,

My comment #152 questions as to since when "unsubstantiated comments" are being censored. And also deleting of responses just to remove traces of the comment.

I also said that whether or not the content of the cited blog post was true, I enjoyed it and I am sure many others did too. Since the pink chaddi campaign seems to be all about creativity and humor, I asked why SS was being intolerant of someone adding more humor to it.

Please explain what about this comment is unsubstantiated without deleting this comment.



#157
Roshan
URL
February 14, 2009
01:37 AM

Anon,

I'm not an editor here. But I can see why that particular comment has been deleted. You started off saying that it was a true conversation. That, anon, is unsubstantiated.

If you had posted it saying 'my take of how a conversation with Nisha Susan would have taken place' it would have been accepted. If it had been posted like that, the humor in it would have been seen by others too.

#158
Anon
February 14, 2009
02:24 AM

Roshan,

Since you seem to be interested, here's what happened.

I started off saying "someone sent me this link" and posted the content as it was. What I had originally posted were the exact words from the cited link. This post was deleted with the note "unsubstantiated".

Kerty, in his response, pointed out that it was a good satire but it was probably not true. He also pointed out that saying it was true took the sting away from the post. I replied that I had posted the content as it was and I agreed with him regarding the rest of his comment.

When I saw that Kerty's response and my response were deleted without trace, I asked about this "new" editing policy. I also mentioned that Sumanth says that the blog post was a real phone conversation. This comment was deleted with the note "unsubstantiated".

You may have read the rest of the exchanges.

#159
kerty
February 14, 2009
01:05 PM

Here is something unique that happened in Gujarat. Gujarat, once again, leads the way. It marked the day as a celebration of its culture. That could be a start of something bigger and better. Pink sena marked the day as a celebration of Gandhigiri. Weather one agrees or not, that is commendable than taking to mindless street brawls. Many people are making it a celebration of their marriage and family and friends. I think debate on VD is not entirely wasted after all, I am sure Indians will make lamonade out of it.


On Valentine's Day, literatti professed love for Gujarat

Ahmedabad, Feb 14 (ANI): Scores of literary figures and other local residents in Ahmedabad on Saturday march a massive rally to mark their love and respect for their mother tongue Gujarati.

Many bigwigs from Gujarati literature took part in the rally hailed at the time of Valentine's Day.

Gujarati Language Council Secretary Kiran Trivedi said, "We are expressing our love for our mother tongue on the day when people celebrate the day of love. Also, from next week the UNO and UNESCO have declared to celebrate February 21 as the Mother Tongue Day. So we have started the celebration of loving one's mother tongue from today."

A Gujarati writer Suresh Dalal believed that English has become a status of symbol nowadays and said, "We are not against English but we are against glorifying it at the cost of mother tongue. If you drop 'M' from mother, it is other. We are interested in mother tongue but not other tongue."

Around 14 voluntary fora participated in this massive rally hosted on Valentine's Day in the cause of Gujarati. (ANI).

http://news.oneindia.in/2009/02/14/on-valentines-day-literatti-professed-love-for-gujarat.html

#160
kerty
February 14, 2009
01:13 PM

Here is another good one. I think this day can be turned into a day of mass weddings. Many poor parents can't afford wedding expenses. This would be a day to pool such parents and have mass weddings in towns across India.

Bajrang Dal helps three couples to get married
Saturday, February 14, 2009 21:16 [IST]

Hyderabad: Bajrang Dal activists opposing Valentine's Day today "married off" three couples here who were dating in public but the Hindu outfit claimed that the love-struck people had themselves approached them for help after their parents opposed their alliance.

"Two marriages were performed with the consent of couples amidst traditional Hindu rituals at the VHP office in Koti here," A Keshava Raju, VHP s state organising secretary claimed here, asserting that the marriages were not conducted forcibly. The VHP's youth outfit Bajrang Dal had fielded three mobile vans with priests to get the couples dating on Valentine's Day married. While two of the couples were from state capital, another hailed from Nizamabad district.

"We have performed marriages legally and traditionally as the young lovers had threatened to committ suicide after their parents refused to agree to their marriage," Raju claimed adding that, "We helped them in getting married when they approached Bajrang Dal." Police took around 210 activists of Bajrang Dal in preventive custody for holding protests against Valentine's Day at Panjagutta, Narsingi, Malakpet, Saroornagar and Sultanbazar police stations limts.

Source : PTI

http://news.indiainfo.com/2009/02/14/0902142121_valentine-marriage.html

#161
Slime_id
February 14, 2009
03:50 PM

I have neither happiness or sorrow for this Bill. But the fact remains it will be misused rampantly.

Sexual harassment bill given to government
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20090083462


The sexual harassment at workplace bill 2008 is under the consideration of the government, Lok Sabha was told on Friday.

In a reply to a question, Minister of Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury said the draft "The Protection of Women Against Sexual Harassment at Workplace Bill" has been submitted to the government for further action.

"The draft bill submitted by the National Commission for Women (NCW) is under consideration of the government, she said.

"As per draft, workplace has been defined as any department, organisation, undertaking and establishment or branch which is established owned or controlled financed by funds provided directly or indirectly by the appropriate government or the local authority or a corporation or a cooperative society," the minister said.

She said besides this, any private sector organisation, institution, unit or service provider, carrying on commercial, professional or industrial activities, has been defined as work place.

#162
Suresh Ram
February 15, 2009
09:53 PM

Muthalik and Valentine id the same thing!
Why no chaddis for Valentine

Saint Valentine appeared in the Nuremberg Chronicle, (1493); alongside the woodcut portrait of Valentine the text states that he was a Roman priest martyred during the reign of Claudius II, known as Claudius Gothicus. He was arrested and imprisoned upon being caught marrying Christian couples-- WIKI

Muthalik is also trying to do the same and was arrested
Attavar at the press conference in Mangalore on Friday said the Sri Rama Sene would not forcibly marry off couples found together on Valentine's Day. The Sene would however take the assistance of the parents of couples and the police to convince them against celebrating Lovers Day, Attavar said prior to his arrest. The Mangalore police termed the arrest a preventive detention.

#163
Kerty
February 22, 2009
02:41 PM

Ram Sena received 1500 Pink Chaddies. What happened to rest of them? Did post office devoured them or pinkos chickened out? For a movement that received such a world-wide publicity and call to action, for a nation made up of billion plus people, 1500 pinkos sound like a storm in a tea cup. More than 50,000 bar girls were banned and thrown out from Mumbai alone. Pink Sena of loose women couldn't get even 3% of these loosest of the loose? Pink sena has got a work cut out for the next year's VD. Time to go back to work.

#164
Suresh Ram
February 22, 2009
10:42 PM

Loose, Pub Going, Forward, Urban Mating Women will now know How treacherous to undergo Trial in Indian Courts. They will see the real face of Judiciary, Delay and litigation Expenses!

Good News

Irked by 'pink chaddi' campaign against him following his threat to disrupt Valentine's Day celebrations, Sri Ram Sene leader Pramod Muthalik has said he would soon sue the rights activists behind it.
Terming the action of protesters as a 'perverted act', Muthalik told reporters here that a 25-member advocates team comprising women has been formed to file defamation cases against the senders of 'panties parcel'.

#165
Roshan
URL
February 23, 2009
12:20 AM

At least the pink sena did not go around beating people up kerty. You'll understand the value of your rights when you get beaten up by Ram Sena and their ilk when you are sitting in a restaurant or a cafe. Then you'll be the one joining hands with the Pink Sena.


I really hope that you guys do get your rights violated some day soon. You sit here all happy about women getting beaten up in the name of culture. The day isn't far when these goons will be so empowered that they'll start dictating your life in every way. Then we'll know whose side you are on.

#166
Slime_id
February 23, 2009
12:32 AM

Roshan, you sound like Bush. You are either with us or against us in the Sena war.

Some prefer to sit in the middle as both Senas flex their muscles as neither Senas are pratical and neither of their approaches are appealing.

#167
Roshan
URL
February 23, 2009
01:04 AM

It's not with us or against us. I'm just disappointed with the way a few people think and look at things.


All I'm saying is that if you sit in the middle and watch the fun and support the goons for their cause (not for the methods, maybe) you are just empowering them more. The day isn't far when the Sena will come from the fringes into your safe middle path homes and beat you up too because you do not fit their view of culture of Indianness.


The approach of the Pink Sena may not be appealing, but at least it's non violent and they've taken a stand against these hoodlums. At least some people are fighting for the rights enshrined in the constitution of India. You can well be in the middle path, but do not condone the Ram Sena and their violence. Most of Kerty's and his friends' comments support Ram Sena but dismiss the 'Pink Sena' because it's started by a woman! Take the middle path and be neutral.

#168
Slime_id
February 23, 2009
02:15 AM

Sending Pink Chaddis is non Violent. There are laws in the land and you can protest non violently. Being middle, the other non Pink Sena is exercising that basic right very well enshrined in the constitution. So what is the problem since Pink Chaddis were non violent and constitution will protect such enablers of freedom.

Day was well past for me Roshan two years ago when I blogged on this very site on my basic right violated and since then I am fighting to keep my basic right, looking after my ailing father who lost his health , got him back from jaws of death and giving pride to my mother.
Nobody cares for my basic rights, and millions others like me. Is the constitution not same for all genders, male or female? As per me it is my culture to react the same way to every right violated.

#169
Roshan
URL
February 23, 2009
03:32 AM

I don't have a problem with the cases being filed by Ram Sena against the people involved in the Pink Chaddi campaign. I'm sure it'll get thrown out of the courts. Ram Sena is in more trouble with its members being given externment orders anyway.


I haven't read your blog so I do not know what rights of yours were violated. I'm not saying one persons fundamental right is more sacrosanct than the other's. But deriving sadistic pleasure looking at other people's rights being violated and encouraging it is very small minded!


I don't claim to know what problems you have in your personal life, but everybody has problems. Everybody has their personal fights they keep fighting through their life. That, again, should not be an excuse to support violence and trampling over other's rights.


I'm guessing you are a SIFF member too. But I don't understand why guys are so happy seeing men and (specially)women beaten up for no fault. It's almost like you are sad that you weren't the hooligans beating those women up. As an organization you should fight for the rights of all human being irrespective of their sex. That's the only way SIFF will get any legitimacy and acceptance by a larger section of the society. If you aren't a SIFF member, please ignore this paragraph.

#170
Slime_id
February 23, 2009
03:46 AM

Roshan, nobody is deriving sadistic pleasure from violation of law or rights! I am being a reflection of myself and thousands of other new people who I see complain of the police corruption and judicial problems.

I never claim that I am SIFF , just an Indian citizen and my views are not representative of the organization . We know that systemic problem India has. I have said unless people understand law in person, the system will be like this.

These Ram Senas will popup everytime. They need to be ignored at best and fought with vigour at all non violent forms. By making it a gender right violation, it is wrong to fight them that way as I am against all appeasements to women as it is generically against my principles to view one gender as weaker than other.

#171
Roshan
URL
February 23, 2009
04:04 AM

I'm glad we seem to be reaching a middle ground here. I don't think it was a gender right violation. Since women were the targets of the Ram Sena this time, the Women's commission and the Women and Child Development Ministry came into the picture.


I just see this a issue of violating individual rights. If it were men beaten up that day, I wouldn't have reacted any differently. There are other gender specific issues that need to be dealt with as such. This issue is not related to any one gender, but affects each one of us if we allow the Sena to continue with their work.

#172
Sumanth
February 23, 2009
04:50 AM

Roshan, Listen it straight:

SIFF does not support any human rights violations.

However, we do not give a damn if those who support human rights violations get beaten up.

1) We will not give a damn, if any UN official get killed in Pakistan. Because, according to UN is a terrorist organisation, which supports jailing of innocent elders.


2) We may celebrate, if lawyers get brutally beaten up in Chennai Court by police, because we know that lawyers think that they are above law.

3) We came up only when Feminazis tried to milk the issue by converting it into a gender issue to be converted into an anti-male issue.

4) We consider feminazis as terrorists, who directly or indirectly contribute to torture and murder of men.

As feminists derive sadistic pleasure in seeing other humans suffer, we will also do the same.

5) Feminists and women have problems in life, just the way everyone has problems. I am using your language.

Now, how the hell Renuka Choudhury trample men's rights and put men behind bars without investigation?

6) How the hell media does not highlight innocent men being jailed, extorted and driven to suicide?

I said clearly,

Either there will be fundamental rights for all, or there is be rights for none.


7) The Convent educated bitches are not the only ones who deserve rights as they themselves work to deny other's rights.

----------

There is nothing called Middle Ground.

The Middle Ground is: the middle point between two extreme grounds.

So, one has to start with an extreme ground, so that one can negotiate middle ground.

===========
Only fools start with a middle ground, while facing extremists on other side.
===========

#173
Roshan
URL
February 23, 2009
05:07 AM

Awwwww...poor Sumanth's ego's hurt.

Do you ever read what you write Sumanth? For a second assume that I've written all that you've said and read it. You'll realize how sad it sounds. It's like it's come from a sad, unhappy, sadistic soul who hates the world he is living in. Believe me, it does come out like that.

You language has utter contempt and disrespect for women, 'feminazis' or not. You take your big brush and dip it in a lot of contempt, mix it with a healthy dose of cynicism and hate and paint women, lawyer, liberals, media and anything you could think of with that brush! Stop generalizing - 'All lawyers think they are above the law' - and start seeing an issue for what it is! Don't mix different issues and connect it to your own agenda.

It's absolutely frustrating trying to have a conversation or any kind of debate or discussion with you!!

#174
Sumanth
February 23, 2009
05:21 AM

Renuka Choudhury gets sued and FIR got registered against this character after a competent court ordered it.

Generic statements were used against Mangalore to defame and degrade a whole city.

Earlier, our great Bitches had declared Bangalore as "Bride Burning Capital".

Roshan, did you ever protest it, when such criminal activity (defamation) is done?

Then, the Women's Ministries went on to Defame NRIs using terms like "holiday brides" and "NRI Desertion" cases using completely false data and rumours.

As it takes only 1 years to get divorce in US compared to 8 years in India, some of these feminist backed Ministries went on to defame all NRI men.

Many activities by Ministers like Renuka Choudhury or Feminists violate fundamental rights of people including NRIs.

=============
It is a common thing in media to defame a guy and his entire family when a false dowry case is filed on him. This has happened to our own senior member.
=============

In India, those who have power or money can indulge in defamation, malicious propaganda and mislead people. If Govt does not act, then people will certainly take law into their hands.

When Lawyers themselves are getting violent inside courts, throwing eggs on people, beating judges and pelting stones on police and stripping Deputy S.P., then whats wrong if people also get into jungle law?

A man had no where to go, when he was allegedly threatened by his wife about jailing false dowry case. He murdered her and committed suicide.

Why this man was denied fundamental rights to get protection (as given by constitution of India)?

Today, a husband beaten by his wife, brother-in-law or father-in-law has no fundamental rights and no protection from Govt. Because, the urban loose women campaign to vote for Renuka Choudhury and propagate false statistics.

In a year, 3 lac men are threatened, tortured by wives and in-laws. They have no protection from Govt. They can not even escape or run away as even that can lead to jailing of their parents.

Now, is it wrong if some of these men take law into their hands?

If country denies fundamental rights to some people, then the right to strike back using natural justice goes to people.

If people defame and degrade India using western money, and if Govt does not act, then its is Dharma which will dictate what action people should take.

Dharma is above law, constitution and nation.

The morons can enact biased laws, fuck the constitution with disgusting amendments and spread hatred.

However, Dharma is universal.






#175
Slime_id
February 23, 2009
05:46 AM

Roshan, you want to sell the idea that NCW, WCD are not playing politics. It is very clear why elite media want this mangalore issue, they simply want trp ratings for theri programs and discussion points before elections.

NCW must then take up other issues as well like "Talibanisation of Chennai Courts".

is the Talibanisation only when a gender right violation occurs, otherwise it is commonday crime?
I don't see your blog on jaagore.com or chaddis sent to the lawyers of Chennai?

#176
Roshan
URL
February 23, 2009
06:10 AM

@Sumanth,
I'll ignore most of your rant, but for the following 2 points

"Now, is it wrong if some of these men take law into their hands?"

YES, it is Wrong

"Dharma is above law, constitution and nation."
You need to believe in the constitution of India and live under it. Otherwise you shouldn't really be living in India!

@slime_id
Unfortunately the Talibanisation is happening in almost every sphere of our life. Talibanisation is not being used for the saffron brigade but for the intolerance people have towards people different from them, practising different religion or have different cultural ethos.

Lawyers in Chennai were wrong in attacking the police station and are not staying true to the constitution they claim to protect by denying attorney to police who might be charged under certain sections. When people get beaten up on basis of the language they speak, views they hold, religion they follow or clothes they wear...these are all instances of Talibanisation of our society.

Again, nowhere in my article or comments do I say beating up women is wrong and if men get beaten up it's alright. I do not condone violence in the name of enforcing one's views or opinions on others - men or women, that's immaterial!!

#177
suresh ram
February 23, 2009
08:32 AM

@Roshan
""If your blood still boils on seeing the video of the Mangalore episode and if you feel strongly about your rights and freedom, just drop a pink chaddi at one of the drop boxes as a sign of protest at what the Ram Sena did"

Roshan
Why your blood is not boiling when 1,23,512 women were arrested under 498a without collecting evidence?
Why your blood is not boiling when a Law is implemented under the Constitution that when a women is ommitting Domestic Violence she can not be prosected?

Have you see the clipping of Manglore Pub Attack where actually it is the men who were beaten up and the women there fele down in the melee?

You appear to have outward soft corner for women and your intentions appear to be vulgar!! It is another way to exploit women.


#178
Roshan
URL
February 23, 2009
09:09 AM

Suresh Ram,
"Why your blood is not boiling when 1,23,512 women were arrested under 498a without collecting evidence?"


Because I did not see the video of this. Please upload a video on youtube and I'll get my blood to boil; at least I'll try. My blood really doesn't boil for everything I see.


'Why your blood is not boiling when a Law is implemented under the Constitution that when a women is ommitting Domestic Violence she can not be prosected?


"Why your blood is not boiling when a Law is implemented under the Constitution that when a women is ommitting Domestic Violence she can not be prosected?"


Because, if someone is ommitting[sic] a crime, then they should really not be prosecuted! That would be plain unjust!

But, I see what you wanna say here, and I do not know about any such case where a woman has committed a crime and has be let off scot free. Please do send me link (unbiased please) to such instances. And, also send me links where all men who committed crimes have also not been prosecuted.


"Have you see the clipping of Manglore Pub Attack where actually it is the men who were beaten up and the women there fele down in the melee?"

Really? Men were attacked that day in Mangalore? Please send me links to those videos as well. I'd get my blood to boil again! As I keep saying, it's about rights violation, not about men or women.

"You appear to have outward soft corner for women and your intentions appear to be vulgar!! It is another way to exploit women."


Yes I do. But I don't understand how that makes my intention vulgar. Care to explain Mr Suresh?
And how is it another way to exploit women?

You really need to get out of single minded view of women, media, liberal or who ever else is your enemy. Start seeing an issue for what it is. And this issue is not about men or women.

I do not go and start ranting about all the men in India because a few Ram Sena goons (men, mind you) molested and attacked women? Have you seen me do that? But you seem to go on a rant about all women being immoral,about their sole purpose in life is to 'ommit' crimes against men and nothing else. Don't you see a problem with that view of things Suresh? You are only concerned about that magic figure of 123000 women and all men in the counrty (barring the liberals of course) and nobody else. I'm saying rights violation by anyone is not done!

You and SIFF need to get that too. Use the same Women's commission and the media to highlight the plight of those 123000 women. Fight for their rights. All that SIFF members do on DC is to rant and accuse others of not caring about their cause. Just because I support one cause doesn't mean I have to support another. What you guys keep doing on DC is plain irrational and stupid (most times at least; not always).


Why doesn't SIFF send some nice DVD collection of Ekta Kapoor serials to all the women who have falsely implicated their husbands and in laws. That serial does symbolize the ideal family you guys want!

Stop complaining about the Pink Chaddi campaign so much just because your cause hasn't received any media attention while theirs has!

And now, I'll stop my rant :p

#179
Sumanth
February 23, 2009
09:36 AM

Roshan,

The world does not run on your or my personal views.

The world runs on actions and reactions.

The world does not run on the basis of constitution as well. How many Indians know more than 1% of constitution?

The urban brats only have opinions.

The nation is in a state of anarchy.

There is complete lawlessness.

Most of the constitutional processes have broken down. Bills are passed in parliament not by discussion, but by bulldozing.

The Lawyers threaten judges and beat litigants. Then, they shut down the courts for months.

India has become a banana republic.

Now, some want to live with Ostrich syndrome and wake up, if some urban spoiled loose women get beaten up.

When a million people are harassed, threatened or beaten every month in India and the law looks other way, then there bound to be some women beaten in some corner as well.

Now, just because a few donkeys are beaten, the donkey rights groups, asses in media and their minister do a Bhangra on the issue.

Let me tell you, just wait and see many such incidents repeating again and again. Because India is a banana republic.

============
My (our) first reaction to Conservative Groups is: "Do not support them. Because, if a salwar clad woman goes to these conservative extremists and complains against her husband, the first thing they will do is it beat up the husband and his family".

We have not forgotten that Kannada Rakshana Vedike did a dharna outside Nokia office in Bangalore, when a female employee committed suicide for allegedly not getting enough work or Visa to some country.

The chivalrous conservatives are the traditional supporters of women, because they believe women can never be equal to men.

===============

However, when Renuka Choudhury started with her foot in mouth and uttered "Pub Bharo" and talked about "Talibanisation of Mangalore", we decided enough is enough.

Then, the language was hijacked by Anti-Indian morons who went on to utter,"there is nothing called Indian culture or Indian identity". Then there are those who selfishly crib about their rights while giving supporting denials of rights to million others.

So, we have to say:

"Fundamental Rights for All, or for None."

===========================

Now, Congress Govt is working overtime to pass an extremely biased anti-male sexual harassment law in the parliament in its last days in an undemocratic manner.

If it gets passed and implemented, it is men like you are going to suffer one day or other. No one will touch me knowing what I am.

Is media discussing this bill with common people?

When such an important law is to be passed, then why media is silent? Because, feminists in media does not want questions to be asked.

Is the draft of this bill on display in women's ministry website or Law ministry website? No. It is not displayed.

You may say, it is wrong.

But, might is right here.

The Govt and Renuka Choudhury have state machinery with them and they are right whether they follow constitution or not.

When they are not following constitution, then why should I follow constitution?

===========
The Govt itself sends the signal, might is right.
===========

Police has power, so it is right even if it extorts and harassed people.

Judges and Lawyers have institutional backing.
Hence lawyers are right and get away with crimes.

If might is right, then everyone will engage the legal system and have fun.

1) Hitting and Breaking teeth is punishable up to 2 months in prison with a fine of Rs.5000 and the trial will take 6 years to complete.

2) Breaking Traffic signal light in a busy signal is 1 month in prison OR a fine of Rs.10,000 and trial takes 80 months.

3) Kidnapping brother of wife and keeping him in a dark room for 4 days, is punishable up to 3 years in prison and fine of Rs.10,000 after 60 months.

4) Planting drugs in the house of one's opponent and working with police to get him screwed. No punishment.

5) Planting pirated CDs in opponent's house and bribing police to get him bundled to jail. No punishment.

and many more....

India is a Banana republic.

The Pink Chaddi clad females, TimesNow, NDTV did not come to support us, when our mothers and sisters were called "SLUTS and WHORES" and threatened of false cases of prostitution.

What did these morons like Pink Chaddi, Feminists, AIDWA and YWCA say?

------
All Laws in India are misused, they are not changed. So, why there is a big fuss about dowry law misuse?
------

Let me extent this to Pink Chaddi issue in their language:

==============
So many people get beaten up in India every day. Why there is a big fuss?
==============

Now, do not say that,"this is wrong and that is wrong....and that is right."

Just acknowledge that India is a banana republic and the there will be complete lawlessness fundamental rights of every citizen is respected and anti-Indian propaganda by pseudo-liberals is stopped.



#180
Slime_id
February 23, 2009
10:14 AM

Roshan, so many SIFFERS have sent petitions to Government, President, Governors not highlightling their plight but the women in their family. who cares?

http://www.unifem.org.in/25%20June,%202008.htm
see this website and then see most men are trying hard to make Madam "Renuka" and her UN goons understand that women , old parents, brothers, sisters are facing terrible lives. Madam never cares even after one SIFF leader told her that she does not understand the pain of a mother as she has no sons.


My petitions for my mother to NCW will be thrown and deposited in a garbage. We are the non existing people. In this light, UN and Renuka are liars as they mention in the same meeting, that law is not misused.

When 498a was alleged on Arjun Singh, what did Renuka say, the law is misused. So we need to be Arjun Singh in India to safeguard our rights? This is more than a banana republic.

#181
Suresh Ram
February 23, 2009
10:26 AM

1.Please visit for arrest statistics of women
http://ipc498a.wordpress.com/2008/06/04/ncrb-over-1-lakh-women-arrested-under-498a-since-2004/

2.You can see men were also attacked at Pub http://www.xomba.com/watch_shocking_mangalore_pub_attack_video_indian_moral_police_beat_girls_out_pub

3. As per Dv Act Men in India are not aggrieved by Domestic Violence and hence perpetrator women are exempted from Punishment

"aggrieved person" means any woman who is, or has been, in a domestic relationship with the respondent and who alleges to have been subjected to any act of domestic violence by the respondent;

4. When women are explicitly pampered and appeased mainly to get attraction from them we consider it to be a vulgar Act. Typical of a patriarchal character.

#182
Sumanth
February 23, 2009
02:32 PM

The problem is:

we have got an neo-upper class, which demands its birth right to think on behalf of all Indians.

You can see this neo-upper caste in English TV, the Page-3, the Lounge and even the blogosphere forcing their thought process on everyone.

I would have no problems with this 1% neo-upper class, thinking on behalf of we all less intelligent and small minded Indians.

But, these neo-upper classes are so much cognitively challenged that they do not even think or do any research and yet claim that they only have the sole right to think on behalf of all Indians. To maintain their hegemony through western aided media, they borrow ideas from media and repeat it everywhere.

When fundamental rights of a million people are violated, what did these neo-upper classes said:

----------
All laws are misused. What's big deal, if a million innocents are jailed?
----------

I was aghast at the insensitivity towards plight of million fellow citizens.

These 1% people control the Visual medium and mislead a billion people. Then, they claim that they are right in doing so and in democracy they have the right to mislead people.

The neo-upper class can not exist unless it shows hatred towards everything Indian.

For them, Saree is the symbol of "Oppression" in India.

For them, Kerosene is the weapon of attack against women.

For them, the Indian in-laws are worse than Count Dracula and co.

For them, 50 million Indian women are missing and still Indian men die 2.5 years on average earlier than women!!


May be some conservative moron has smashed their brains that they have failed to think.


-------
None of these are backed by any statistics or data. The only sources are some imaginary stories in newspapers or in media.

We screwed them royally with vicious language for last 4 years, so they stopped discussing dowry issue in TV now.
--------

The media bias is enormous.

The westerners who stay in India for brief periods are now getting influenced by all bullshit thrown at them in media.

Can Pink Chaddis stop extravagant marriages or female foeticide? No.

Why should they? They are busy working hard and partying harder.

For female foeticide, they can always blame the male dominated society, create some fucking TV serials on Rajasthan and demand crucification of all men.

In the meanwhile, they tell everyone "Girls are Victims and you have free choice (oops pro-choice)" so that the educated do gender selection and abort and these NGOs get funds.

=================
This Banana republic will take another 350 years to solve all pending court cases.
=================

Yet the priority is not Law and Order for Pink Chaddis, but the "Pub Bharo" as if Taliban will stop all pubs next week in Bangalore and Karnataka.

Suicides have increased 40% in last 12 years, yet it is not an issue for NDTV, TOI or TimesNow. If tomorrow some beauty queen commits suicide, then these media will jump around to make it into another women's issue.

----------
Now, the bitches are spreading the lies that 60% of working women are facing sexual harassment at workplace.

Nicole Kidmann has inspired them to fight against violence against women using the statistics that 1 out of 3 women face DV in lifetime in world.

Now, the "thinking men" think that it is a non-issue for them and chivalrous men should take abuse, slapping and insults from women as brave men and "remain" silent about it.

If they open their mouth, then they are anti-women. When Nicole Kidmann is not anti-male, then how come male victims of abuse anti-women?
----------

The propaganda by western minded anti-national neo-upper class costs people their happiness, their money, their security and their peace.

Now, do these neo-upper classes deserve peace and security?

How can they wish to be safe, when they campaign to make world unsafe for others?

How can they claim the right for a woman to go to pub, while they campaign for denial of right of a woman to meet her married son?

People who campaign to deny other's rights and play zero-sum games, deserve to be denied every possible right. Soon there will be people who will celebrate when such people get badly hit.

I can see thousands celebrating, when lawyers were chased and beaten up by police with lathis in Chennai High Court and outside.

Good. One enemy is hitting other enemy. It was fun. Both the enemies are great upholders of constitution of this Banana Republic.

Did NDTV talk about Talibanisation (oops....LTTEisation or Eelamisation) of Chennai?

The women in pub were not striped or beaten with sticks. Is not it?

Now, the men in Chennai are beaten with lathis and some were stripped. Why it is not an issue?

==========
Violence on men is acceptable.
Now, accept the violence by men as well.
==========

Both go hand in hand.


#183
Sumanth
February 23, 2009
03:06 PM

SIF Dharna in Bangalore on Feb 14th right to Next to Agni Sridhar's Pro-valentine day Dharna with Pink Chaddis.

http://picasaweb.google.com/fightin498a/SIFDharna

We were not against Valentine's day.
We were against Renuka Choudhury.

#184
Suresh Ram
February 24, 2009
12:02 AM

@#178
Roshan
"As I keep saying, it's about rights violation, not about men or women."
http://news.indiainfo.com/2005/01/28/2801renuka.html
At that time Choudhary came there driving a Contessa car. She refused to heed the police advice. Instead she got out of the car and "kicked and slapped" Head Constable Janaki Ram, who had asked her to stop the vehicle, the FIR alleged. Later on, learning that she was an MP, police had allowed her to go.

But what about Rights violation by the icon of Loose, Pub Going, Forward women whose cause you have taken up?


#185
Roshan
URL
February 24, 2009
12:23 AM

My God Sumanth, can you RANT!!

I don't know where to start replying to you because your view are neither rational or logical. Your views and the way you put your opinions across just trivializes your cause because you paint everybody as bad, every woman as a 'bitch' and claim that the Indian state is a banana republic etc etc etc.....do you expect anybody to take you seriously? You are just one of the paranoid people who sees a conspiracy in everything that happens around you.

You don't even live up to the Mission and Vision of the organisation you claim to represent!! Read your organisations vision and mission and come back and talk sense.

Doling out numbers isn't providing statistics. 1% neo liberal....who gave you that number? We are almost 10%. Go check your facts again. Don't under estimate us neo liberals. And the 123000 women you your heart bleeds for, are you telling me the Domestic Violence is non existent in India and all of the women arrested are completely innocent? Don't give me that bull crap! Domestic Violence is a reality and men and women do commit such crimes. Your fight should be against the law and not against all woman kind.

Such extreme views are irrational and counter productive for your own good. You might need a better leader in SIFF who knows how to get support for a cause and not alienate people....try elections and democracy. You just might find a good leader amongst yourself.

#186
suresh Ram
February 24, 2009
01:44 AM

How come "Lawyers torching Police Station within the High Court Premises" taking place in a democracy?
Is it not a Banana Democracy? or paronoid?

""Lawyers assaulting Former Home Minister(and also a women activist Radha Rajan) inside the High Court hall in the presence of Two Hon'ble Judges""
Is it not a Banana Democracy? or paronoid thinking? Or extreme views or extreme happenings?

Fri, Feb 20 03:09 AM
Lawyers set fire to a police station in Chennai and 20 police were injured in clashes on Thursday after the arrest of legal counsel sympathetic to Sri Lankan rebels, police said.

In a standoff lasting several hours in Chennai police baton-charged the lawyers in a court complex and fired teargas

#187
Sumanth
February 26, 2009
04:22 PM

It is strange that some people consider extreme view by Renuka Choudhury to be rational where as similar views by others are termed as irrational!!

Karnataka is now termed as a anti-woman state where as the state has only 2500 dowry cases compared to a whopping 11,500 in Andhra Pragesh, ruled by Congress and the home state of Renuka Choudhury. Karnataka is much better compared to Andhra regarding safety of women and it is a model state in India.

When Minister Renuka Choudhury is showing her capabilities to all over India, she has no time to safe guard woman's interest in her own constituency Khammam.

Looks like minister is busy working Pub Bharo and Pink Chaddi campaigns and has no time for women or children in her own constituency.

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14861461

Woman sells baby for Rs 6,000 to bribe doctor
Wednesday, 25 February , 2009, 02:28

Hyderabad: A tribal woman in Andhra Pradesh sold her newborn baby for Rs 6,000 to pay bribe to a doctor.

The shocking incident occurred in Khammam district and in the Lok Sabha constituency of India's Women Development and Child Welfare Minister Renuka Chowdhury.
-------------

I appreciate the priorities of this Great Minister.

#188
Sumanth
February 26, 2009
04:28 PM

One has to think who is a lunatic or irrational.

Indian Express artcile
.....
By just one mad act, Muthalik turned many, including a minister, into full-scale lunatics. Renuka Chowdhury, a minister of state, supported a "pub bharo andolan" to take on Muthalik, thus openly encouraging young boys and girls to take to mass drinking in public. And believe it or not, her portfolio is Women and Child Development. Came an even more mad response to Muthalik's take on Valentine's Day. "I support every kind of love, heterosexual, transgender, marital, extramarital".

This is Arundhati Roy sermonising to youths. Why she left out incest from her catalogue of love is not clear. Now, take the secular media. It quickly equated pubgoing with individual rights, and held Muthalik as an offender against human rights. Evidently, the mad act of a freak Hindu in a distant corner of India is sufficient to turn the whole of secular India into lunatics. Now move away from this trivia to the danger to which Renukas and Arundhatis expose the nation's economy.
..............

#189
kaffir
February 26, 2009
04:39 PM

Sumanth, I'm coming to the conclusion that the media in India is unreliable at best and is least interested in reporting facts. The show of "secularism" is also not guided by facts, analysis or some strong underlying convictions that should be applied consistently, but is rather political in nature and nothing more than anti-BJP screed while same/similar acts happening in Congress-ruled states don't get reported to the same extent.

What's surprising is that the media manages to rope in so many who should know better. But I guess, everyone is looking to "be a rebel" today, so it's not difficult.

#190
Roshan
URL
February 27, 2009
12:09 AM

Sumanth, that was an editorial piece in the Express by S Gurumurthy, if I'm not mistaken. Reading it I was totally reminded of you and how you write comments here. It shocked me to see that there are respected people in the community who think and write like you do!


There is one article today in the Express, center page, lower right which again talks about how vain the Pink Chaddi people are and again, more or less like you would write stuff.


Maybe SIFFers took over IE or maybe the media isn't as one sided or biased as you guys keep shouting about!

#191
Roshan
URL
February 27, 2009
12:10 AM

Sumanth, that was an Op -ed piece in the Express by S Gurumurthy, if I'm not mistaken. Reading it I was totally reminded of you and how you write comments here. It shocked me to see that there are respected people in the community who think and write like you do!


There is one article today in the Express, center page, lower right which again talks about how vain the Pink Chaddi people are and again, more or less like you would write stuff.


Maybe SIFFers took over IE or maybe the media isn't as one sided or biased as you guys keep shouting about!

#192
Kerty
February 27, 2009
01:02 AM

Roshan

Why not deal with the arguments presented by S. Gurumurthy? Unless you rebut the arguments conclusively, you can't expect to clinch the arguments and hope to convince the masses at large. In spite of all the world-wide media promotion and call to action, Pink Chaddies could not muster more than 1500 supporters out of billion plus people. If you really believe in your cause, you got to do better.

#193
Roshan
URL
February 27, 2009
01:27 AM

I hoping somebody does, someone who can articulate better. His arguments are around the same lines like you guys give. Anti individualism and freedom of individuals.


I don't think that being individualistic or respecting yours as well as other's right i will cause a dramatic fall in values that us Indians hold dear or bring about a collapse of our economy! To bring better lives to all Indians, we need the economy to grow and one way to do it is for people to spend. But as Indians we will always save, either in banks or by buying gold etc. It's my opinion, you guys or gurumurthy need not agree with it,


As far as Pink Chaddi goes, they have more support than just 1500. 1500 people sent in the chaddis...that I think is a good achievement in a country where the middle class and most of society is not too into any kind of activism.

#194
kerty
February 27, 2009
02:35 AM

Roshan

"To bring better lives to all Indians, we need the economy to grow and one way to do it is for people to spend. But as Indians we will always save, either in banks or by buying gold etc."

Economy can not grow if people do not invest in the economy and people can't invest in the economy of they are not saving money. When people save, and place it in a bank, it makes the funds available for lending and investment - saving creates capital formation. In absence of capital formation, nation would need to borrow money from abroad by selling the ownership of its economy which can reduce the nation to become a labor and consumer colony. When people buy gold, that is spending too. Besides sustaining huge jewelery industry, the money circulates back into the economy.

"I don't think that being individualistic or respecting yours as well as other's right i will cause a dramatic fall in values that us Indians hold dear..."

Individual is the smallest atomic unit - it can exist on its own, survive on its own, live on its own. So individual can not be a basic unit of society. Individual must exist in relation to larger social, economic and political entities, and must learn to live within them. When you make individual to be sole center of society, it amounts to atomizing all spheres and institutions and de-recognizing and dis-empowering everything else that holds them together.

Rights can not hold anything together. It can not build relationships or institutions It is an idiom of warfare. It is duty and responsibilities that hold things together.



#195
kerty
February 27, 2009
02:43 AM

Correction #194 - it should read as

Individual is the smallest atomic unit - it can NOT exist on its own, survive on its own, live on its own.

#196
Roshan
URL
February 27, 2009
03:49 AM

"When you make individual to be sole center of society, it amounts to atomizing all spheres and institutions and de-recognizing and dis-empowering everything else that holds them together."

No, it doesn't. An individual with respect for himself/herself and equal respect for another individual is what will eventually hold society together. What you are preaching is one set of people who believe that they are superior to others and expecting everybody to follow their lead.

And don't go on a rant on how the liberals are forcing everyone to follow them as it isn't happening. No one is beating people up and forcing them to go to pubs or wear western clothes or to think like them and behave like them.

Only saving will create a lot of capital and investment. But there has to be someone consuming things, otherwise where will the economy grow from? Why do you think the affluent middle class is being talked about today? Because, they have started spending and that's in turn boosting the economy. Saving is important, but just saving wont get you anywhere.

#197
kerty
February 27, 2009
04:31 AM

Roshan

"An individual with respect for himself/herself and equal respect for another individual is what will eventually hold society together."

That statement would be true if you have culture of duties and responsibilities in the mix. But when you add culture of contentious rights into that mix, than individual would not respect anything or anybody when it comes to getting their rightful way and you would need omnipotent and totalitarian state to referee the peace among individuals, and strip the individuals from using force, which state can not do effectively as police state can not be everywhere where individuals are negotiating their turf battles.

"Liberals are forcing everyone to follow them"

Liberals ride on statism. The force is used by state on behalf of liberals.

#198
kerty
February 27, 2009
05:37 AM

Roshan

"Only saving will create a lot of capital and investment. But there has to be someone consuming things, otherwise where will the economy grow from?"

People can not live without consumption. So demand for consumption will always exist in any society. What poor nations lack is not demand for consumption, but rather lack of capital formation and productive capacity that can meet the demand for consumption - and since its wealth creation is still not sufficient, its saving would not enough to grow its capital formation and productive capacity. So it has to borrow both capital as well as productive capacity from other countries to meet its demand for consumption. But growth in consumerism can not be at the expense of saving as saving is the key for healthy economy.

What rich nations lack is not capital formation or productive capacity but lack of sufficient demand for consumption that is backed by income, hence it has to engineer elevated consumerism based on debt in order to sustain the giant overblown economy. Thus its consumerism has come to be sustained by debt and its capital formation is also sustained by clever debt instruments and ponzi financial schemes. Thus entire economic edifice have come to rest on debt and not savings. And it has no where to go but crash. Its now trying to survive by exporting its excess consumerism to vast markets like India, so that it can get out of debt trap and introduce savings as a foundation of its economy.

#199
Sumanth
March 11, 2009
04:49 PM

Has UK got its own brand of Sri Ram Sena?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article5875108.ece

============
In UK,
One in Seven believe, Women should be hit for wearing sexy clothing in public.
============

#200
Sumanth
March 11, 2009
04:56 PM

In UK,
------

One in seven people believe it is acceptable in some circumstances for a man to hit his wife or girlfriend if she is dressed in "sexy or revealing clothes in public", according to the findings of a survey released today.

A similar number believed that it was all right for a man to slap his wife or girlfriend if she is "nagging or constantly moaning at him".

The findings of the poll, conducted for the Home Office, also disclosed about a quarter of people believe that wearing sexy or revealing clothing should lead to a woman being held partly responsible for being raped or sexually assaulted.

#201
Anon
March 11, 2009
07:47 PM

Who deserves pink chaddis in the following scenarios?

SURAT: For hundreds of women involved in anti-liquor campaign in Surat and other districts, Lok Sabha election pose a real challenge. With elections round the corner, bootleggers have swung into action to meet the requirements of potlis' (country liquor packed in polythene bags). They have started attacking women, who come to destroy their liquor breweries.

In the latest incident, three women activists of anti-liquor squad from Bhedfalia village were allegedly attacked on Tuesday night by bootleggers in Bardoli taluka's Surali village. The women - Sumitra Chaudhary, Praveena Chaudhary and Sunita Patel - are members of Sakhi mandal from Bhedifalia in Bardoli's Madhi village.

The women got a message about six liquor breweries in the adjoining Surali village. So around 15 women decided to storm the village at night, not knowing that bootleggers were waiting for their arrival with wooden sticks.The moment the women entered the village, they were flushed out by a mob of around 40-50 people, including the bootleggers and their family members. Unfortunately, three members of Sakhi mandal were caught in the ensuing melee. However, the women put up a brave front and managed to escape from the spot.

Although the women escaped with minor injuries, their family members do not want them to participate in the drive against liquor breweries.A farm labourer Gaman Chaudhary at Madhi village said, "I have strictly asked my wife to stay indoors. The election season has arrived and bootleggers can do anything to satisfy the needs of politicians."

The incident has shocked tens of hundreds of women in Surat district, who have been putting a brave fight against country-liquor breweries since last three months. Since January, the women of various villages in Surat district have destroyed more than 600 to 700 liquor breweries.

"My husband and children do not want me to participate in the drive after Tuesday's incident," said Sumitra Chaudhary, who was assaulted by a stick. The trio, who were attacked and held captive, went to Bardoli police station on Thursday to register a complaint against the bootleggers.

Leader of Madhi Sakhi Mandal Madhuben Chaudhary said, "Fear of attack looms large on the members of Sakhi Mandal. Their family members do not want them to join the campaign. Even the police are not able to help us due to elections."

A senior police inspector with Bardoli police station said, "We have registered a complaint and investigation are on. Sakhi Mandal women raid liquor breweries without informing the police, hence they are attacked by bootleggers."

****************

KENDRAPADA: At least 500 women belonging to self-help groups, armed with staffs and broom sticks, ransacked two unlicenced liquor shops in
Padamapur village under Earasama block in Jagatsinghpur district on Monday.

They also set fire to liquor and blocked the village road for more than three hours.

Of late, many villagers have been opposing the opening of two liquor shops in the village and its vicinity.

They had submitted memoranda to the district collector, district superintendent of police and the excise officials in February to stop the sale of liquor in the village and its nearby areas, but to no avail.

"We decided to attack the liquor shop only after the authorities turned a deaf ear to our demands. On Monday, we organized the women of the village and its nearby areas and laid siege to the shops. We burnt liquor bottles packed in boxes," said Sarojini Sahoo of Padamapur village.

The owner and the salesmen of the liquor shops managed to flee before the siege. A large percentage of menfolk supported the women's move. "We had decided to tonsure all liquor sellers. But they managed to flee," said Sandhyarani Swain, another villager.

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