OPINION

Cultural Intolerance - The Young Need To Speak Up!

February 02, 2009
Roshan Krishnan

We've all seen with utter disgust what happened in Mangalore the other day. I was shocked to see 40 goons molesting and physically attacking women in the name of protecting our culture and preventing obscenities! I'm an Indian and a Hindu and I feel ashamed that these people claim to represent my culture and religion. I’m sure that my culture isn’t so fragile that it needs hoodlums to protect it!

This is not a one-off incident. This kind of intolerance is rising across our country. Most times the bogeyman raised by these hoodlums is that of protecting Indian culture and values. But every time the reason for such attacks is political. These groups have, in most cases, tacit support from political parties and, in a few cases, even from the state!

There are a lot of pertinent questions that arise when such incidents keep happening - Why is such intolerance tolerated in our country? Why do such people, their leaders and the organizations they claim to represent always get away without facing any consequences for their actions? What gives them the confidence to break the law repeatedly?

There are many such questions, but I just want to talk about two aspects of this issue. Firstly, the lack of respect for individual rights and secondly, the fact that the youth are always the easy target.

We are a nation whose constitution ensures that we have the right to speech and expression. But every time a few narrow-minded individuals and organisations attack us, they infringe on these rights. These groups do not tolerate any view which runs contrary to their world view. They do not accept the fact that in our democracy, I have just as much right to my views and opinions as they have to theirs. These people are nothing but terrorists in the guise of culture police. They use violence and threats of violence to try and enforce their view of things. Sounds terrifyingly like the Taliban, doesn’t it?

By trying to force their views down our throats, these groups are chipping away the very fabric on which our constitution and our country were built. The civil society of India should not allow such intolerant men to dictate how the people of India should lead their life. We need to stand up to such forces to ensure that the rights which we hold so dearly aren’t taken away from us. We need to take a stand to ensure that we remain free to speak out and express ourselves and have the freedom to have individual thoughts and opinions. The day we lose our fundamental rights, we cease to be a free, liberal society and turn into a country where the Taliban would feel right at home!

Invariably, the victims of such attacks are the young men and women of India. The fundamentalists infringe on our rights, trying to enforce their warped world view on us. No political party has been serious in tackling this menace. Who are the political parties trying to appease by being soft on these internal terrorists? Why is it that the voice of the youth and the rights of the youth do not matter?

The youth today constitute a majority of the population. We are almost 30% of the total electorate. Yet, only a handful of us really go out and exercise our right to vote. For the politicians we are an insignificant majority because we sit out during every election.

The fact that we do not participate in the electoral process makes it a simple decision for the political parties to ignore us. Election after election we remain aloof from the electoral process. And, as long as we continue doing that, our rights and freedoms will be infringed upon. As long as we choose to be silent spectators, our voices won't be heard and our rights will be trampled upon.

Think about it, most such attacks on the youth and the places they frequent often happen in the bigger cities of India. Cities where there are many, many educated young people. If we need our voices to be heard and respected, we need to use this number to our advantage. We need to come out and vote every election and reject such parties which do not respect our rights and such candidates who believe that they can attack us in the name of religion and culture to appease their voting constituents.

We don't need to wait for some politician to take a stand and make a change. The change needs to start from each one of us. We need to use the power of our vote to get the politicians to hear our voices. If we don't, then get ready to lose our rights one by one. Get ready to be attacked again and again in the name of culture. It’s up to us! We need to decide if we want to go to pubs and malls and restaurants or if we want to be scared and stay indoors. You know it and I know it that we don't lose our ‘Indianness’ or our cultural identity by indulging in some harmless fun. It's up to us to drill this into our politician's heads by using the power of our vote!

Our first chance to make our voices heard loud and clear is the upcoming General Elections sometime in April-May. We need to get out and vote and reject those who support such narrow-minded organisations! But first, to vote you need to get your name registered in the electoral or the voters list of your constituency.

The JaagRe! One Billion Votes Campaign website is an excellent place to start the process of registering.

They have created India's first online registration engine. Registering with them is a 5-minute process and the engine takes care of sending you the right form that needs to be submitted. The website also has one of the most comprehensive voting related FAQs. It would be worthwhile to spend time reading those as well. I would strongly urge each one of you to register with the website and start the process of being eligible voters. Also get your friends and family to register and get out on Election Day to cast your vote in favor of free speech and right of expression!

A techie interested in current affairs, politics and very much in love with my country. And my blogs will definitely reflect this.
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#1
Dark Lord
February 2, 2009
03:26 AM

agree with you on politics being the driver for this whole saving the Indian culture crap. If these goons are really interested in saving Indian culture they should be spending more time in organizing and popularizing Indian fine arts rather than thrashing women who go to pubs.

#2
Sumanth
February 2, 2009
04:02 AM

"There are a lot of pertinent questions that arises when such incidents keep happening - Why is such intolerance tolerated in our country?"

When you and media, do not allow people to communicate, this is what happens.

India has got a huge conservative population just like most other countries of the world. However, in media, very little space is given to conservatives to communicate. The continued onslaught on conservatives has led to a section of them becoming extremists.

If 90% of Indian people are conservatives, then how ethical it is for so called liberals in media to choke their voice?

If even 0.001% of these 100 crore conservatives think of taking law into their hands and do moral policing, no police or court can do anything about it. If they have support of conservative masses, then they control the election results as well.

Here are some attacks on conservatives done persistently by Liberals using media.

1) Indian Family is the most oppressive institution in the world. It has to be destroyed.

2) Indian culture is inherently oppressive to women.

3) Indian society has got the maximum social evils in the world.

4) It is a rewarding experience to hate India, Indian society, Indian family and Indian culture.

5) Wearing a banyan and showing half of the bare ass by women in a street is the "ideal India".

6) No one has a right to talk about culture.

Whosoever, talks about Indian culture, the media has to blame them. So, has media or liberals only have got the right to talk about culture?

7) Conservatives have no right to self-appoint themselves for any cause.

Liberals forget that Jesus, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Subhash Bose and all others are self-appointed only.

There is no law which says that people can not appoint themselves for a cause including protecting culture.

-------
The fucking media is biased against conservatives. Once in a while, a fringe group of conservatives takes law into their hands and gains lot of mileage out of it.

The choice is there for everyone.

It is up to media to decide:

whether to stifle moderate conservatives, which leads to empowering extremists, or to go beyond media bias and let people decide what they want to do with culture via democratic means.

In a democracy, it is the majority, which decides what it wants for the society. If media alienates the majority of people, with anti-Karnataka, anti-hindu, anti-conservative slogans just to appease a "Liberal Minority", then this will not continue for long.

The number of fringe groups will increase if democracy is subverted by media and 90% of the population is sidelined just because some liberal morons do not agree with them.

By the way, society tolerates violence by women. There are no laws to deal with many categories of violence women. So, whats the harm once in a while, women also get the same medicine?

When women were attacking arrack sellers in villages, media praised them. So, its pay back time.

If justice and democracy is denied, some people will take law into their hands.

For example, 40 lac people were unnecessarily arrested in just one year 2007. We do not care about it. If tomorrow, some 5000 of them take law into their hands and break all traffic lights of a city bringing traffic of a city to standstill, then media and everyone will blame them,"no one has a right to take law into their hands."

If the Govt, the media and liberals controlling media, do not connect themselves with majority of the people of this country and deny them a voice, then that is the worst form of intolerance.

If Liberals want to promote hatred towards one's own culture or society or nation, then that is also intolerance.

Finally,"Liberals do not have an exclusive right or moral policing" as it is the democratic majority, which will decide where the country should go, and not the media or the liberals.

It is an illusion that a few TV Channels can only define what culture or society is.

There can not be double standards so far as intolerance is concerned.

If Liberals are intolerant about conservatives.

Then Conservatives can also be intolerant about liberals.

If women believe abusing men, torturing men with false cases and NCW supports them, then that is also intolerance.

If showing bare ass in a street with low waist jean is the true Indian culture, then masturbating or having sex in a public place should also be considered as true Indian culture.

If Sri Ram Sena tomorrow beats up people showing half of bare ass on valentine day and masturbating in public, then we all will demand life imprisonment for them.

It is good that Sri Ram Sena has not yet got people who can think, otherwise the liberals would have been in deep trouble by now due to their own double standards.

#3
kerty
February 2, 2009
05:02 AM

Those 40 'goons' were youth power of India and if you take the survey of all the youth and their families, majority of them would approve of what those youth had to do to clean up their neighborhood. Media and state seldom address the concerns felt by communities and localities and it is usually up to local youth to agitate and force the issues upon local authorities. Media and politicians usually jump in the fray to make political hay, but in this election season, they dare not go too far to antagonize the majority that is overwhelmingly conservative in these matters. Go ahead, register all your 'youth' buddies and dare make it an election issue. That should help wake up the sleepy middle class and Hindu youth that tend to sit out the elections.

#4
Sumanth
February 2, 2009
05:35 AM

The anti-Karnataka statements and the negative publicity given to state by media, will help BJP in elections.

The media finished the Congress's chances in Gujarat by making a hero out of Modi. It is trying to do the same in Karnataka.



#5
Ledzius
February 2, 2009
06:30 AM

The media, especially the Times of India through its "Lead India" campaign and others projects the false illusion that the youth of India are its saviours while the seniors are retards and backward. Nothing can be further from the truth.

Many of the youth I have come across are spoiled brats who only seem to know how to ride their bikes on footpaths. They seem to lack the responsibility and maturity of older people. And many have spent the better part of their lives after economic liberalisation, and never quite know what life is when you had to wait a year to get a phone connection or have only a single TV channel.

Added to this is, as what Sumanth has mentioned, the looking-down on south Indian culture, and many native Kannadigas see this as a cultural war between them and the Punjabis from the north. Gujarat is a fantastic analogy. Look how popular Modi became, in spite of the prohibition in the state. The fact of the matter is, when it comes to issues like ethnic pride, alcohol or the lack of it becomes the least important issue. Most Gujaratis (even the younger ones) today would probably show the finger to any liberal types who bemoan the absence of alcohol in that state.

The Congress is seen as a puppet of Sonia (which it really is) and I hope it gets kicked out of the Centre too this year.

#6
Ravi Kulkarni
February 2, 2009
06:43 AM

Dear Kerty (#3),

By the same reasoning any group of people can take the law and order into their own hands and impose their views on segment of the society. This is not the way to go. We live in a democracy and the will of the majority should be respected. If our laws are not good, let's change them. If we leaders are not good kick them out. Vigilantism is not going to lead us to nirvana.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

#7
Ravi Kulkarni
February 2, 2009
06:44 AM

Dear Kerty (#3),

By the same reasoning any group of people can take the law and order into their own hands and impose their views on segment of the society. This is not the way to go. We live in a democracy and the will of the majority should be respected. If our laws are not good, let's change them. If our leaders are not good kick them out. Vigilantism is not going to lead us to nirvana.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

#8
kerty
February 2, 2009
08:09 AM

Ravi

It is the legal system that creates fiats that imposes on the society as it can not differentiate cultural ground realities at community or locality levels. Indian culture is not uniform, or monolithic, it is lived in countless communities and localities, it differs from community to community and from locality to locality. You can not subject them to national fiats, or majoritism or one yardstick. And that is the root of cultural wars. That is why most communities have nothing but contempt for national fiats, majoritarian mandates and rebel against them or seek exemption from them. One can't legislate culture, but state shouldn't promote anything that violates values various communities have lived by and like to propogate. State has to give autonomies to the local communities in social, cultural and religious matters and recognize diversity among them. Otherwise, communities would rebel against institutions of state. Vigilantism should be viewed as a symptom of overreaching state in matters that should be left to communities at local levels. While rights, freedom and individualism are hallmark of statism, all other spheres are built around dharama, duties, restraint, cooperation, family, community, culture, traditions etc. State that fails to reconcile these two opposite forces of nation invite alienation and vigilantism.

#9
Dark Lord
February 2, 2009
08:46 AM

kerty

"One can't legislate culture, but state shouldn't promote anything that violates values various communities have lived by and like to propogate. State has to give autonomies to the local communities in social, cultural and religious matters and recognize diversity among them. Otherwise, communities would rebel against institutions of state. Vigilantism should be viewed as a symptom of overreaching state in matters that should be left to communities at local levels. While rights, freedom and individualism are hallmark of statism, all other spheres are built around dharama, duties, restraint, cooperation, family, community, culture, traditions etc. State that fails to reconcile these two opposite forces of nation invite alienation and vigilantism."

what happens to uniform civil code? so by kerty's grand theory of the Vigilantism, sati and child marriages, which were the "values various communities have lived by and like to propogate", should continue. By propagate, i remember someone used to hell bent against religious conversion.

Kerty is being very dubious here. Though a lot of people support the right of communities to live by their values and propagate the same, it is only upto the point that they do not infringe upon others rights. A community X cannot drive another community Y from a city but community X can have a housing society for community X. You can regulate zones as to where a pub or a pan-bidi shop can come up (not 50m-100m away from schools etc) but you cannot trash people for visiting pubs or smoking.

#10
kerty
February 2, 2009
09:36 AM

DL

"what happens to uniform civil code?"

Do we have one? Can you frame one? Is there a political will to create one? Until we have one, lets not pretend that we have a uniform civil code.

"so by kerty's grand theory of the Vigilantism, sati and child marriages, which were the "values various communities have lived by and like to propogate", should continue."

To reduce and equate the cultural values to Sati, child marriages or any other cultural malpractices is a gross caricature and insult. Malpractices are always product of specific time and circumstances. Even at the height of their prevalence, they were never practiced by all communities or everybody within certain affected communities, and they are no longer burning issues - statistically insignificant in present times. State has to continue to regulate practices that are deemed to be malpractices, be they in any field, or community.

"By propagate, i remember someone used to hell bent against religious conversion."

Religious conversions is a form of religious war, not religious freedom or propagation. State has a interest in maintaining religious harmony, and must outlaw predatory religious warfare.

India has created and accommodated unrivaled diversity in every sphere, and the formula is very simple

- autonomy in non-political spheres and cultural self-sufficiency are recognized and pursued at group and decentralized levels
- in return for enjoying freedoms and autonomies, communities and localities adopt non-encroachment and non-interference as guiding principle for maintaining harmony among diverse aspirants
- Differences at community and locality level are recognized and respected. State or other groups does not try to impose on them until consensus is created

#11
Ledzius
February 2, 2009
10:10 AM

kerty - "To reduce and equate the cultural values to Sati, child marriages or any other cultural malpractices is a gross caricature and insult."

How true. The liberals are very predictable in citing sati when they want to portray Hinduism in a bad light, the same way they are very predictable in citing Kajuraho or Kamasutra when they want to portray how liberal Hindu society was back then. Of course, which of the two views they would choose depends on the context of their agenda.

Just as one swallow does not make a summer, sati or Kamasutra or Kajuraho cannot be based to draw conclusions regarding Hindu society as a whole. It was too diverse and fragmented for that. Kajuraho, especially, was a temple built by a maverick and it cannot be used as an example to conclude about the sexuality of India (assuming one could even talk of an entity called "India" back then).

#12
Aditi N
February 2, 2009
10:24 AM

Ledzius: "The liberals are very predictable in citing sati when they want to portray Hinduism in a bad light, the same way they are very predictable in citing Kajuraho or Kamasutra when they want to portray how liberal Hindu society was back then. Of course, which of the two views they would choose depends on the context of their agenda"

Similarly, the conservatives and moderates are also very predictable in using these two hollow stereotypes to portray liberals.

And you are right, like a company or an organization we should have a marketing department for religions and cultures whereby only their positive attributes are highlighted and negatives are not, so as to prevent this "potraying in a bad light" phenomenon that from dirty underbelly to sati is currently sweeping the nation.

I mean ultimately that is all that matters, right? The image. Who cares about what really goes on. People just care about how things are "portrayed".

#13
Suresh ram
February 2, 2009
10:43 AM

Who is instigating these women groups to hold such protests?
Why do some women, wearing lipsticks and powders are protesting against the politicians on the streets of Mumbai", asked Naqvi.
"There is a clear attempt to divide the country and break the trust of people in India's
democratic fabrics.
That's why such protests against politicians are
taking place. These women are following western values, and lighting candles while condemning the politicians", he further added.

http://www.breakingnewsonline.net/2008/12/mukhtar-abbas-naqvis-lipstick-remark.html

#14
Suresh ram
February 2, 2009
10:44 AM

Who is instigating these women groups to hold such protests?
Why do some women, wearing lipsticks and powders are protesting against the politicians on the streets of Mumbai", asked Naqvi.
"There is a clear attempt to divide the country and break the trust of people in India's
democratic fabrics.
That's why such protests against politicians are
taking place. These women are following western values, and lighting candles while condemning the politicians", he further added.

http://www.breakingnewsonline.net/2008/12/mukhtar-abbas-naqvis-lipstick-remark.html

#15
commonsense
February 2, 2009
10:55 AM

I agree with Aditi! Hand over Indian culture, and indeed all of India to a PR company. If possible, and Indian PR company of course. Problem solved! Problem? What problem?

#16
Aditi N
February 2, 2009
10:55 AM

Wearing lipstick and lighting candles are Western values?! I had no idea. :D

Haha.

What about holding hands and leaving one's hair loose, untied or not oiled and braided? Is that a Western value too? This should be immediately investigated. Our nation is in peril!

#17
smallsquirrel
February 2, 2009
10:59 AM

totally typical empty arguments. Aditi hit the nail on the head. I mean, why in hell would anyone want to address the actual problem here when we can just cite stupid stereotypes and spew a bunch of worthless propaganda and rhetoric?

never ceases to amaze me.

half of you could not stick to the topic at hand if your life depended on it. it is so predictable, so narrow, and so indicative of why your lives are stuck on "lather, rinse, repeat"...

#18
commonsense
February 2, 2009
11:07 AM

Suresh Ram:

"Why do some women, wearing lipsticks and powders are protesting against the politicians on the streets of Mumbai", asked Naqvi.
"There is a clear attempt to divide the country and break the trust of people in India's
democratic fabrics."

Wearing lipsticks, "powders" and dressed in clothes made of "democratic fabrics"? How non-Indian can this get. Tch tch...the least these women can do is to wear silk saris, instead of this donning unIndian "democratic fabrics"

#19
Ledzius
February 2, 2009
11:25 AM

Aditi- ". Who cares about what really goes on. People just care about how things are "portrayed".

Yeah, that's right. In that case, maybe we should start talking about the Salem witch burnings, and how this time it was the WHITES who were responsible for burning many innocent women.

Maybe we should start talking about the Nazi holocaust and the decimation and enslavement of other races by the whites in many continents.

Why only showcase the positive aspects of white culture? We Indians are supposed to live with the burden of sati which happened several centuries ago, but expected to overlook the atrocities committed by the whites as recent as a few decades ago.

The whites are very cunning and always seem to take the moral high ground these days when their cupboards are full of skeletons. The Indian intelligentsia (a term which actually insults the term 'intelligence') gets readily conned into swallowing this ruse, maybe in a masochistic desire for self-flagellation.




#20
commonsense
February 2, 2009
11:54 AM

Ledzius:

"The whites are very cunning and always seem to take the moral high ground these days when their cupboards are full of skeletons."

yes very cunning indeed! look they don't allow any free discussion of the horrors of the holocaust and for sure there are no witch museums on salem, MA. Look they even go white in the face whenever the issue of XYZ is brought up. very cunning indeed. they think they can fool ledzius, but him no self-flagellating masochist. he's happier flagellating others and producing hinnys and mules.

#21
anon
February 2, 2009
11:56 AM

@ Roshan:"The youth today constitute a majority of the population. We are almost 30% of the total electorate. Yet, only a handful of us really go out and exercise our right to vote."
Speak for youself. Do you have any statistics to prove that youth don't vote? Or is it from your own personal experiences??



kerty:"Those 40 'goons' were youth power of India and if you take the survey of all the youth and their families, majority of them would approve of what those youth had to do to clean up their neighborhood."

Poor, unemployed, brainwashed youth are being used shamelessly by politicians and you call it YOUTH POWER?? Let them take the survey then we'll know what their families think about their present "occupation".


"The media, especially the Times of India through its "Lead India" campaign and others projects the false illusion that the youth of India are its saviours while the seniors are retards and backward. Nothing can be further from the truth."
Youth are not saviours and seniors are not retards. TOI is merely catering to its own readers who are predominantly the youth. The seniors should restrict themselves to Hindu or Indian Express if they want serious news.

"Just as one swallow does not make a summer, sati or Kamasutra or Kajuraho cannot be based to draw conclusions regarding Hindu society as a whole."
Exactly. Kamasutra or Khajuraho does not define Indian society and should not. I gave those examples to drive home the point that neither sati nor khajuraho are representative of the ENTIRE Indian society. In the same way the antics of the Ram sena, vaanar sena or Ravan sena is not the will of the whole society. They are fringe elements and should be treated so.

#22
Sumanth
February 2, 2009
12:12 PM

We are asking for National Debate on all these issues.

The Conservatives and Liberals fight with each other creating nuisance for uninvolved people.


The Liberals and media says, marriage and family are oppressive to women, let us finish them off.

The Conservative judges think it is a sin for them to give divorce.

These two monkeys fight, people suffer.

Liberals feel they are the only authority on culture, Levi "bare the ass" jeans, teen sex and masturbation in public.

On one hand these Liberals claim,"people know what is right and wrong. people know where to draw a line".

When it comes to dowry or female foeticide, liberals go 180 degrees opposite and claim,"Indian people need education as they do not know anything."

The Truth is:
=========================
People need moral policing as people do not actually know what is good for them.

Otherwise, why there is dowry or gender selection going on? Why there are extravagant marriages? Why there are "bare the ass" activity by ugly women? Why there is drunken driving?
=========================

Liberals want to want "policing" when it suits them and will go 180 degrees when it does not suit them. That is hypocrisy.

Liberals caused so much damage to India outside the country by taking one freak incident of Sati in 1980s in a country of Billion people. They carried out so much anti-Indian propaganda that the world believed that the false propaganda that 25,000 women are burnt for dowry every year, where as in reality Indian homes are one of the safest places in the world for women.

Liberals want free license to defame, degrade and police people in their terms. There is a complete disconnect with masses. The tide will turn now, if there are 1000 fringe groups break the civilisation up in revenge.

Many feel, those who have defamed the country using false propaganda, must have no right to talk about any issue related to India and must go to some other country and get screwed there.

A hell lot of energy is wasted as liberal minority and media hold the nation to ransom as the conservative majority waits for a chance to hit back.

Let there be a national debate on

1) what is Indian culture and in which direction it has to be guided.

2) Who will be the authority on Indian culture and its policing.

3) What are gender roles and gender relationships.


I know, no liberal will be interested in it. Because they do not want anything civilised in this country. They are only interested "bare the ass" activity.

I feel like creating an organisation,"which issues a fatwa against women, who bare their ass using low waist jeans on Feb 14th to market themselves in the street to lure men."

I will demand a special red light area for women who show ugly bare ass to people in the street wearing low waist jeans.

If Govt does not do that then I will tell Sri Ram Sena to have a special pant, which will enable them show their "mojo" on the street.


#23
smallsquirrel
February 2, 2009
12:24 PM

hey common... you mean like: http://www.salemwitchmuseum.com/

#24
kaffir
February 2, 2009
01:09 PM

The conversation and comments here are a perfect example that showcase what Sumanth's first comment mentioned regarding communication. No fullstops in India, indeed.

#25
Roshan
URL
February 2, 2009
01:38 PM

@anon : Unfortunately the election commission doesn't keep statistics on age wise voter turnout. So yes, the 'only a handful of the youth vote' statement was part personal experience and part obtained from a random dipstick survey conducted by Janaagraha and is part of their JaagoRe! campaign presentation.
Since I did not have exact numbers, I decided not to put any percentage value there.

@Sumanth: I'd laugh at your comments if I didn't think your are being serious. I know I shouldn't get personal here, but I really think you have serious issues with the opposite sex. You seem to see them just as 'ass baring' people out to 'lure men'

Nowhere in my article did I say that our culture is bad. In fact I'm really proud of my culture and my Indianess. All that I'm saying is that forcing your views down someone else's throat is not done. I respect your views about protecting the culture, but resorting to violence is not the way to go. You used the names of Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Jesus....all of them spread their opinions and views without resorting to violence.

Ram Sena can stand up and say they want to be the lone voice of Indian culture and I'll have no problem with that as long as they respect my right to have opinions of my own and respect my freedom of expression and choice. Also, I don't think that Indian culture, or for that matter any culture, is static. Culture changes, evolves as time goes by. A few of you desperately trying to keep our culture from evolving will fail. Culture will evolve, just as it has evolved over hundreds of years.

You also throw a lot of numbers around. What are the basis for these numbers? Where are you getting these from? You also talk about the Liberals, the media, the government and women asif they're enemies who need to be defeated! That's a lot of paranoia. If there's a liberal media, there is a conservative media as well. There's equal space for all kinds of voices in this country. That's what's great about India!

You say we need a national debate on What Indian Culture is all about, who should be the authority on it and gender roles. Well, you call me a liberal and I accept the offer to debate. Why don't you write an article on your views and opinions on the 3 points you've mentioned in your previous comment and start off the debate right here on Desicritics? I'd be glad to debate this and see where that gets us.

#26
Roshan
URL
February 2, 2009
01:39 PM

@anon : Unfortunately the election commission doesn't keep statistics on age wise voter turnout. So yes, the 'only a handful of the youth vote' statement was part personal experience and part obtained from a random dipstick survey conducted by Janaagraha and is part of their JaagoRe! campaign presentation.
Since I did not have exact numbers, I decided not to put any percentage value there.

@Sumanth: I'd laugh at your comments if I didn't think your are being serious. I know I shouldn't get personal here, but I really think you have serious issues with the opposite sex. You seem to see them just as 'ass baring' people out to 'lure men'

Nowhere in my article did I say that our culture is bad. In fact I'm really proud of my culture and my Indianess. All that I'm saying is that forcing your views down someone else's throat is not done. I respect your views about protecting the culture, but resorting to violence is not the way to go. You used the names of Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Jesus....all of them spread their opinions and views without resorting to violence.

Ram Sena can stand up and say they want to be the lone voice of Indian culture and I'll have no problem with that as long as they respect my right to have opinions of my own and respect my freedom of expression and choice. Also, I don't think that Indian culture, or for that matter any culture, is static. Culture changes, evolves as time goes by. A few of you desperately trying to keep our culture from evolving will fail. Culture will evolve, just as it has evolved over hundreds of years.

You also throw a lot of numbers around. What are the basis for these numbers? Where are you getting these from? You also talk about the Liberals, the media, the government and women asif they're enemies who need to be defeated! That's a lot of paranoia. If there's a liberal media, there is a conservative media as well. There's equal space for all kinds of voices in this country. That's what's great about India!

You say we need a national debate on What Indian Culture is all about, who should be the authority on it and gender roles. Well, you call me a liberal and I accept the offer to debate. Why don't you write an article on your views and opinions on the 3 points you've mentioned in your previous comment and start off the debate right here on Desicritics? I'd be glad to debate this and see where that gets us.

#27
kaffir
February 2, 2009
02:08 PM

"Well, you call me a liberal and I accept the offer to debate."

Excellent idea, as I was about to suggest something similar!! My other suggestion is that if there's a way to limit the debate to just two people and their back-and-forth (maybe do that through email and then publish it?) - at least initially, that would make for a more interesting reading. All the nit-picking and frilly comments more often than not defeat the purpose of having a discussion as people get defensive and stop listening.

Another suggestion I have is for commonsense and Aditi to write a post on some *specific* aspects of Hinduism and Hindu/Indian culture - the same one that gave us sati et al - that they find positive, useful, and/or beautiful. The challenge for commonsense is to not invoke Americans like Thoreau or Twain when talking about India. ;) :)

#28
Dark Lord
February 2, 2009
02:54 PM

Ledzius

"The liberals are very predictable in citing sati when they want to portray Hinduism in a bad light"

I also cited child marriages which is more prevalent in muslims than hindus. But my goal is to show that state should not allow "values various communities have lived by and like to propogate." esp if they infringe on rights of the individual not to go on religious bashing grounds which by the way i am very apt at. (Actually working till 1.30 AM does not leave me with much time to after it)

Kerty

"To reduce and equate the cultural values to Sati, child marriages or any other cultural malpractices is a gross caricature and insult."

mission accomplished.

"Religious conversions is a form of religious war, not religious freedom or propagation. State has a interest in maintaining religious harmony, and must outlaw predatory religious warfare."

so what should the state do about Ram Sena which is interested in propagating "Indian culture".

@anon
"People need moral policing as people do not actually know what is good for them.

Otherwise, why there is dowry or gender selection going on? Why there are extravagant marriages? Why there are "bare the ass" activity by ugly women? Why there is drunken driving?"

Most people who support moral policing do not see themselves as the target of the same moral police. Its quite easy to tell how one should lead his life rather to actually follow those rules. The question to ponder is this, would you like it if I start enforcing my morals upon you?

#29
Sumanth
February 2, 2009
03:14 PM

"All that I'm saying is that forcing your views down someone else's throat is not done."

Tell that to media.
Tell that to all anti-Indians indulging in false propaganda.

Tell that to Renuka and Girija.

Yes. I have serious issues with unscrupulous, vulgar, abusive and criminal women. I work towards putting them all in jail.

It is a pity that you are not even aware about the basic statistics related to key issues and the controversies related to them. I get the statistics from National Crime Bureau, National Family Health Survey, FBI and do comparison to what the anti-Indians spread in media.

There is conservative no news channel in India.

Regarding debate:

1) I am not a conservative.
I only behaved like a conservative to put points. So, get real conservatives.


2) I talked about National Debate, which has to involve media, NGOs, conservatives, temples, mosques, churches, villagers, educators, judges, bureaucrats, intellectuals.

Get them all to Desicritics, I am ready.
If not, then join me in demanding a series of national debates in couple of cities for next 6 months.


3) I want a debate, whose results are enforceable.
I do not want a simulated debate.



Non-violence is the method used by only a few. Did Bismarck or Subash Bose use non-violence?

If violence by Sri Ram Sena is to be opposed, then what about violence by the Indian State against innocent people including women?

The Liberals are behaving like upper caste brats and forcing their views on the masses. It is all about glorifying anything fucking thing that is western, without even saying that murder rate in US is more than 2 times than India. And there are states in US, where even highly educated men with PhDs produce 5 to 10 children.

Stifling the "National Identity" and forcing Indians with screwed up communist history text books and planting false data in media to defame India by liberals including guys like Swami Agnivesh, will have its consequences.

The liberals do not make the upper caste and the conservatives the lower caste. Do not force things down the throat of conservatives. In stead communicate with them. If it is not happening, then get ready for all kinds of violence.

When a country is defamed in the world, its culture is degraded and people are trained to hate their country and themselves, it is the time for civil war as the war against the criminal anti-nationals starts.

Things do not happen in isolation. The cultural war unleashed by foreign funded businesses and consumerism lobbies is making liberals suck up to everything western. The foreign funded UNICEF and UNIFEM dictate the policies related to culture and family to India. Did we vote for UNIFEM, that they will decide it all?

Every country and culture hold on to it someway or other. The bavarians, the swabians, the chinese, the japanese, the dutch, every one has got and strive to retain that distinct identity.

I have not seen any other country doing the kind of mindless social experiments that the Congress, media and Indian liberals do in India.

First of all, they brainwashed in history to all of us, Indians are cowards.

Then, they told us that we are more evil than some of the worst cannibals and vikings in the world. Sati, Bride Burning and many more issues are created to prove that all.

In the name of solving social problems, the liberals, congress and media create new social problems everyday.

They have forced down our throats continuously for last 10 years,"Indian women are victims", which simply works towards creating a dis-empowering context for people.

To solve one single social problem, they jailed 1,23,000 women in last 4 years. The social problems did not go away. They created one more problem.

In the schools and colleges, the liberals taught the young girls for two decades using false statistics,"India is most oppressive to women, Indian men can not be trusted, Indian in-laws are evil, Indian family oppressed women."

This is worse than jehadi indoctrination.

The hate and intolerance propagated by liberals, has made its impact, where it was supposed to.

Statistic clearly show, Indian in-laws treat daughters-in-law better than their parents. How many people will believe that?

NDTV and all news channels propagated the lie by United Nations that 70% of Indian women face domestic violence.

Is not it all about brainwashing people with ulterior motives with an eye on damaging the country?

The liberals must watch out. If there are Sri Ram Senas grow in every corner of the country, can Govt, politicians, media, police or judiciary handle them?

It is foolish for Liberals, if they are expecting non-violence, when they try to stifle the national identity and start a cultural war.

Even today, India, ancient Indian discoveries and Indian philosophy impacts major businesses, management techniques, positive attitude therapies, health and culture around the world.

Indian People in Surinam, Holland and Fiji crave for Indian culture.

But, liberals want to impose some stinking western torn apparel just because some western brands will make money.

The worst of all is, women are now trained by liberals to be masculine and behave like men. Feminism today is all about being a man. In fact, women are trained today to do every evil and chauvinistic activity men indulged in. Using extremely vulgar language in TV is the new "culture" propagated. The anchor asks,"shout of 20 vulgar invectives" to a group of women.

The result is these women are extremely unfulfilled, when they marry they have no sense of direction. In stead of blaming their screwed up attitudes, gigantic expectations, lack of gratitude, and the brainwashing by liberals, they blame the men and rock the marriage.

So, some people will self-appoint themselves and start rocking the castle built by liberals in thin air.

Not everyone may believe in non-violence.

#30
Sumanth
February 2, 2009
04:02 PM

"All that I'm saying is that forcing your views down someone else's throat is not done."

Tell that to media.
Tell that to all anti-Indians indulging in false propaganda.

Tell that to Renuka and Girija.

Yes. I have serious issues with unscrupulous, vulgar, abusive and criminal women. I work towards putting them all in jail.

It is a pity that you are not even aware about the basic statistics related to key issues and the controversies related to them. I get the statistics from National Crime Bureau, National Family Health Survey, FBI and do comparison to what the anti-Indians spread in media.

There is conservative no news channel in India.

Regarding debate:

1) I am not a conservative.
I only behaved like a conservative to put points. So, get real conservatives.


2) I talked about National Debate, which has to involve media, NGOs, conservatives, temples, mosques, churches, villagers, educators, judges, bureaucrats, intellectuals.

Get them all to Desicritics, I am ready.
If not, then join me in demanding a series of national debates in couple of cities for next 6 months.


3) I want a debate, whose results are enforceable.
I do not want a simulated debate.



Non-violence is the method used by only a few. Did Bismarck or Subash Bose use non-violence?

If violence by Sri Ram Sena is to be opposed, then what about violence by the Indian State against innocent people including women?

The Liberals are behaving like upper caste brats and forcing their views on the masses. It is all about glorifying anything fucking thing that is western, without even saying that murder rate in US is more than 2 times than India. And there are states in US, where even highly educated men with PhDs produce 5 to 10 children.

Stifling the "National Identity" and forcing Indians with screwed up communist history text books and planting false data in media to defame India by liberals including guys like Swami Agnivesh, will have its consequences.

The liberals do not make the upper caste and the conservatives the lower caste. Do not force things down the throat of conservatives. In stead communicate with them. If it is not happening, then get ready for all kinds of violence.

When a country is defamed in the world, its culture is degraded and people are trained to hate their country and themselves, it is the time for civil war as the war against the criminal anti-nationals starts.

Things do not happen in isolation. The cultural war unleashed by foreign funded businesses and consumerism lobbies is making liberals suck up to everything western. The foreign funded UNICEF and UNIFEM dictate the policies related to culture and family to India. Did we vote for UNIFEM, that they will decide it all?

Every country and culture hold on to it someway or other. The bavarians, the swabians, the chinese, the japanese, the dutch, every one has got and strive to retain that distinct identity.

I have not seen any other country doing the kind of mindless social experiments that the Congress, media and Indian liberals do in India.

First of all, they brainwashed in history to all of us, Indians are cowards.

Then, they told us that we are more evil than some of the worst cannibals and vikings in the world. Sati, Bride Burning and many more issues are created to prove that all.

In the name of solving social problems, the liberals, congress and media create new social problems everyday.

They have forced down our throats continuously for last 10 years,"Indian women are victims", which simply works towards creating a dis-empowering context for people.

To solve one single social problem, they jailed 1,23,000 women in last 4 years. The social problems did not go away. They created one more problem.

In the schools and colleges, the liberals taught the young girls for two decades using false statistics,"India is most oppressive to women, Indian men can not be trusted, Indian in-laws are evil, Indian family oppressed women."

This is worse than jehadi indoctrination.

The hate and intolerance propagated by liberals, has made its impact, where it was supposed to.

Statistic clearly show, Indian in-laws treat daughters-in-law better than their parents. How many people will believe that?

NDTV and all news channels propagated the lie by United Nations that 70% of Indian women face domestic violence.

Is not it all about brainwashing people with ulterior motives with an eye on damaging the country?

The liberals must watch out. If there are Sri Ram Senas grow in every corner of the country, can Govt, politicians, media, police or judiciary handle them?

It is foolish for Liberals, if they are expecting non-violence, when they try to stifle the national identity and start a cultural war.

Even today, India, ancient Indian discoveries and Indian philosophy impacts major businesses, management techniques, positive attitude therapies, health and culture around the world.

Indian People in Surinam, Holland and Fiji crave for Indian culture.

But, liberals want to impose some stinking western torn apparel just because some western brands will make money.

The worst of all is, women are now trained by liberals to be masculine and behave like men. Feminism today is all about being a man. In fact, women are trained today to do every evil and chauvinistic activity men indulged in. Using extremely vulgar language in TV is the new "culture" propagated. The anchor asks,"shout of 20 vulgar invectives" to a group of women.

The result is these women are extremely unfulfilled, when they marry they have no sense of direction. In stead of blaming their screwed up attitudes, gigantic expectations, lack of gratitude, and the brainwashing by liberals, they blame the men and rock the marriage.

So, some people will self-appoint themselves and start rocking the castle built by liberals in thin air.

Not everyone may believe in non-violence.

#31
kerty
February 2, 2009
04:40 PM

DL

"what should the state do about Ram Sena which is interested in propagating "Indian culture"

Nothing. Rama sena has a mission too. Weather you like it or not. Rama sena will stop when it feels its mission is accomplished.

"antics of the Ram sena, vaanar sena or Ravan sena is not the will of the whole society."

Why should that stop them? Pub culture does not represent the will of whole society either, but that has not stopped it from being imposed upon communities that do not want it. State does not represent the will of whole society, but that has not stopped it from imposing its writ on society. If might makes right, than so be it. Why should sena give it up unilaterally.

Has vanar sena attacked you? Than why are you condemning it? Why not look the other way(like those who oppose vice culture are asked to do), go about your own business since it does not concern you? Why engage in moral policing of your own by condemning it? Why you want to impose your views on followers of those sena?

"would you like it if I start enforcing my morals upon you?"

Its already being done. People and media are already invading the public domain and imposing their personal morals on it. For harmony and peace, public domain should occupy only those things that meet the consensus of the people being imposed upon, and the rest have to be confined to private and personal domain. But in the name of individualism, rights and freedom and speech, we all impose upon public domain whatever we like. Unfortunately, various sena can also do the same. Crying foul is too late, too partisan, too self-serving.

#32
kerty
February 2, 2009
05:12 PM

Roshan

"I don't think that Indian culture, or for that matter any culture, is static. Culture changes, evolves as time goes by. A few of you desperately trying to keep our culture from evolving will fail. Culture will evolve, just as it has evolved over hundreds of years."

Culture evolves its form and practices to suit the times and circumstances, but its spirit remains. Its institutions remain. Otherwise, culture decays and dies.

Just because culture evolves does not mean you can bulldoze it. Each generation has to make its case for needed changes, negotiate the changes and alternatives, justify them, win the people over. And that often leads to difference of opinions, cultural divergence, diversity - which has to be accommodated and respected in the spirit of 'each their own as long as it is not being imposed upon rest of others'. This is the process that has leads to autonomous cultural communities having their own cultural practices. Cultural wars happen when one group seeks to impose its culture upon others - and currently, all communities and cultural groups are feeling insecure and under siege, being imposed upon by state and media sponsored culture that is alien to them. And communities and localities are reacting by creating their own neighborhood watch to keep the undesirables away.

As I have stated earlier on this issue, India does not have an all-india level 'indian' culture. India's culture lives in countless communities and localities, and it is very diverse from locality to locality - but that does not make culture of any community any less compelling or not worth defending. If you impose on those localities and communities, they would react violently in self-defense. They would create their own respective sena - they are not trying to impose 'indian' culture on whole of India. They are only trying to defend the culture and values they have in their community and locality. Assertion of culture is local, not national, though war upon India's culture is national - so issue of defending india's localized cultures resonate at national level, why local senas develop affiliations with national organizations fighting similar cultural battles.

#33
Chandra
February 2, 2009
07:00 PM


The idea that the attacks in Bangalore are anything to do with culture is a naive interpretation. It is completely to do with the hafta culture that is common across the country when small businesses are forced to pay huge bribes to various stakeholders in order to run their businesses. In the event that somebody calls out their bluff, these thugs then resort to nonsense like this to show who is their boss. Unless we find a way to end this hafta culture, such attacks will continue not just against innocent women but also against men and small business owners.....Does the Karnataka Govt want to lose out on small businesses?

#34
commonsense
February 2, 2009
08:38 PM

Huh?? What the fish? Contradiction, thy name is Chandra??

""The idea that the attacks in Bangalore are anything to do with culture is a naive interpretation.""

Yet:

"It is completely to do with the hafta culture (CULTURE)that is common across the country"

Despite what culture vultures claim, culture is not simply to be equated with art, literature, poetry what have you. Yes indeed, "hafta culture" is also a form of culture.

#35
Aditi N
February 3, 2009
09:27 AM

Ledzius #19: I am happy to enlighten you on this subject. Who portrays only positive aspects of this "white culture" that you speak of? Surely, you are joking. People do actually speak of all the issues you just mentioned in your comment and in spite of all their other not-so-likeable quirks I have not heard one American (not even the conservatives) whine about "image" when speaking of history.

They in fact have a holocaust museum. In Salem there is a big plaque which describes the incidents and there is a Salem witch museum. In Chicago at the biggest museum of Natural History, there is a clear depiction of slavery, killings of Native Americans etc. There is enough discussion in this country, both academically and socially about all the stuff you mention in your comments but nobody is insecure enough to claim that references to real events in history are just conspiracies to "portray America in a bad light". That would be stupid, shallow and most importantly would reflect a society's callous disregard towards those who suffered in the past.

Don't we speak of Jalianwala Baugh massacre? Then why should atrocities committed against Indians by Indians be spoken about or reflected upon?

To date, a Black History Month is celebrated in the U.S even though they now have a black president. All TV channels have films about slavery to educate future generations of these past atrocities so that they are never repeated again. DO you think we will ever have a Dalit History Month? Or a museum with sati depictions? We have a museum for Gandhiji and for our freedom struggle.

I think that our coming generations need to know both the negative and positive aspects of their history and culture. Only that ensures that certain atrocities are never repeated again. In the 21st century we still have witch-burning in Bihar and the issue of untouchability and caste-discrimination in rural areas. How can you even claim that these instances are just history that should not be repeated because it portrays India in a bad light? Who are we trying to impress?

In my opinion it is plainly ignorant of you to dismiss credible history in the name of "bad marketing" and then rationalize this with the example of "white culture".

#36
Ledzius
February 3, 2009
10:19 AM

Aditi, I too wish we Indians build edifices to Sati and have a Dalit history month and be done with it, just like the whites have done in dealing with their past. Hopefully that would cause the Indian liberals to shut up.

No civilization was perfect. The US didn't allow women to vote till 1920 and had official racial segregation till the 50's. India had already implemented affirmative action by then. So please also give credit where it is due.





#37
Aditi N
February 3, 2009
10:33 AM

Ledzius: There are times when I wish we could make some exceptions on name-calling in our comment policy.

For one cannot really argue with someone who doesn't read rational responses and continues to toot the same tune no matter what logical counter-argument is offered.

My point was not that the "white" or "Western" civilization is perfect. My point was: When the mistakes of the past are mentioned or discussed these "whites" and "Westerners" that you loathe so much don't claim that Indians and Chinese are trying to portray their "culture" in a bad light. It would sound juvenile and dumb irreespective of whether they were conservative or liberal.

If "shutting up liberals" is your goal then building museums won't do it. You may have to recommend genocide to our government. That'll do it.

Conservatives are equally (if not more) annoying but I would never want them to shut-up. They make for such great entertainment!

#38
Ledzius
February 3, 2009
12:05 PM

Aditi - "My point was: When the mistakes of the past are mentioned or discussed these "whites" and "Westerners" that you loathe so much don't claim that Indians and Chinese are trying to portray their "culture" in a bad light. It would sound juvenile and dumb irreespective of whether they were conservative or liberal."

For the record, there are a number of white Holocaust deniers on both sides of the Atlantic. And there are still several fringe groups within the US like the KKK, Aryan Nations, and the National Alliance which promote white superiority. Two white racists were recently arrested for plotting to behead 88 blacks, in addition to assassinating President Obama.

The mainstream whites regard these as fringe elements and nutcases, but the same courtesy doesn't seem to get extended in the case of Bajrang Dal or the Shiv Ram Sena. Instead the whole Hindu civilization is vilified by Indian liberals and past evils like Sati are promptly brought out of the closet to prove their point.

It should be noted that Indian society is far more tolerant of diversity than the US can ever claim to be. Having myself lived there for more than 10 years, I can say that it is a very conformist society. We have had 2 Muslim presidents even before the end of the 70's. And to date, we have also had a Sikh president and a prime minister. The US would have never elected a non-Christian president, either before or after 9/11. Obama had to go out of his way to prove he is a practicing Christian.

The conformism permeates through all levels. Even school kids who are vegetarians are ridiculed and bullied in the US. In India, kids are taught to pretty much mind their own business when it comes to school lunches and not make value judgments based on dietary preferences.

If there is any official discrimination these days, it seems to be running the other way. In states like Tamil Nadu, it is virtually impossible for a forward caste person to get admitted to a government college or get employed by the state govt. Tell me if there is anywhere in the US which has this kind of reverse discrimination. And tell me honestly that there is no racial profiling of blacks by the cops or silent discrimination in the workplace happening in the US.

I guess it has to do with the marketing of Western civilization through their media as well as their Indian stooges like Arundhati Roy. Seems to be quite successful, imo.





#39
Aditi N
February 3, 2009
12:26 PM

Ledzius: "For the record, there are a number of white Holocaust deniers on both sides of the Atlantic. And there are still several fringe groups within the US like the KKK, Aryan Nations, and the National Alliance which promote white superiority. Two white racists were recently arrested for plotting to behead 88 blacks, in addition to assassinating President Obama"

By hushing up/ denying mentions of sati and untouchability if you want to announce your mindset as analogous to these above groups that you listed, please, don't let me stop you. You said it, not me. Thank you for giving us a perspective into this "conservativism" that you speak of. It is very enlightening.

#40
Slime_id
February 3, 2009
12:28 PM

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20090082293

Rot runs deep in Mangalore pub attack case: Renuka Choudhury
NDTV Correspondent
Tuesday, February 03, 2009, (New Delhi)
The Centre had sent a two-member team to Mangalore on Sunday after an earlier team sent by the National Commission of Women failed to submit its report.

The Centre's team led by Joint Secretary Kiran Chadda is now back and is likely to submit the report in a day or so.

Speaking to NDTV, Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhary said that the most worrying factor is with the state government's lax attitude. "The hoodlums of Sri Ram Sene are empowered enough to get out and attack again," she said.

The minister also said that it was necessary for the second team to go so that enquiry is not misled by any one team.

"The Joint Secretary has visited the place. We are verifying a lot of details as the rot is lot deeper than we thought," she said.

Renuka also said that the attack was premeditated.

Speaking on the issue of Centre-state relations over the issue, she said, "It is not a case of erring state. It is a national security issue and the party in power has to answer how these hoodlums are so empowered."

Renuka Choudhury added that it's time to look at the amended sections of the CrPC in light of the Mangalore attack.

Renuka Choudhary slammed the policemen who were suspended.

"That is a scary picture, an adult man, an officer who has been trained and should be sensitized
drags a girl by her hair. That's where their masculinity lies, beating a young girl makes them feel like heroes," she added.

What emerges with this is a dangerous image of policemen in this country. The way some of them think and go about their jobs. This is a point that was made by the Minister of Women and Child Development as well.

#41
Slime_id
February 3, 2009
12:31 PM

In essence Renuka equates masculiity with pub,
and also with husbands ( future victims)

#42
Slime_id
February 3, 2009
12:35 PM

I salute Thee Renuka and thy wisdom!

I want u as Prime Minister of India for next 100 years, if u please so.

I will stop commonsense from making comments on u.
You can pass 1 law every week on everything u want and recall anytime.

I want u PM badly

#43
Ledzius
February 3, 2009
01:13 PM

Aditi, as before, you have cleverly misinterpreted my statements.

Read my comments carefully. That is not what I implied. I just refuted your previous comment that Whites don't complain that others try to portray them in a bad light. The holocaust deniers do precisely that.

Sati was an evil that happened long ago. No one is denying that. But bringing it up to attack Hinduism in the contemporary context is pointless. It distracts from the main issues that are facing the nation today. It is like flogging a dead horse.

And untoucability might still exist in some places in Bihar (which doesn't have a great reputation to begin with), so why besmirch the rest of the nation over this? This makes about as much sense as calling all New Yorkers racist over some Klansmen burning crosses in rural Alabama.

#44
kaffir
February 3, 2009
01:28 PM

"By hushing up/ denying mentions of sati and untouchability "


I didn't see anyone hushing up or denying mentions of sati and untouchability. Far from it, there's an open debate on it and many writers and scholars have written on it. So what exactly are you referring to?

Now if you were talking about hushing up of certain historical actions of Mughal emperors and whitewashing certain aspects by institutions that are supposed to research history, I would agree with you. Along with a museum for sati etc., let's also have a Mughal Dynasty museum that shows the historical actions of these rulers without getting into political correctness or offending some precious vote bank.

What do you say Aditi, my champion of truth and equality? :)

#45
Aditi N
February 3, 2009
01:43 PM

Ledzius, first of all, although I must admit I am pretty damn clever, interpreting your comment didn't take much genius. We were discussing why people are so touchy about the mention of sati, untouchability and other such obviously negative and historically relevant events. To rationalize your views your provided examples of a subsection of "whites" who deny the holocaust and support slavery.

When someone mentions "sati" it is possible they are merely referring to a historic fact. When someone mentions the Holocaust they may be making a reference to a time in history and not "besmirching" any nation or culture. But in order to see that you may first have to let go of your insecurirties and learn not defend, hush up or deny things that you had no control over.

Just imagine: wouldn't it be terribly daft if the British claim that "India's constant mention of the freedom struggle in history books and in films is a deliberate attempt to besmirch the nation of Britain".

History happened. Why be embarassed of it? Why get all defensive and touchy every time its mentioned?

BTW: Bihar is not the only place where untouchability "might exist" and as much as you hate it, it still is a part of India. A nation cannot just move forward leaving some of its states behind. I guess that is what happens when we just stop mentioning it in the fear that we might "besmirch" our international image.

#46
Aditi N
February 3, 2009
01:51 PM

kaffir: I don't see any of these many writers and scholars here on this thread...so you'd have to assume my comments are directed to Ledzius especially considering I put the name Ledzius before every comment of mine.

You say this: "Along with a museum for sati etc., let's also have a Mughal Dynasty museum that shows the historical actions of these rulers without getting into political correctness or offending some precious vote bank"

Sure, why not!

A secular pluralistic nation I would hope would at the very least have a palate to stomach its own history. No?

#47
anon
February 3, 2009
02:03 PM

I agree with kaffir. Certian historical actions of Mughal Emperors have definitely been hushed up by left leaning historians and others who might have thought this would affect the fragile unity of our country and open old wounds. Indian society is yet to come to terms with the two painful invasions which ravaged India.

#48
Lexiss
February 3, 2009
02:09 PM

To all the people here who condone and support the actions of the Ram Sena: You don't see the future of where this goes.

What you all are preaching is a civil war. Say Ram sena goes about molesting women to uphold the India Culture. What if the pub goers get armed and the pubs start keeping armed guards ? We'd end up in shootouts.

It would definitely have been the case had it happened at Delhi, where a lot of people carry guns.

The correct way is to petition the government through whatever different means to ban alcohol, if that was what they wished. The Ram sena would have wanted to ban it only for "women" though, truly on the lines of the original Ram, who didn't have the guts to stand by his wife.

If everyone starts hooliganism and molestation to upload their perverted version of the Indian culture, we'd surely end up like Pakistan very soon.

#49
Ayan Roy
February 3, 2009
02:45 PM

Very true Lexiss. Unabated unchecked one-sided violence, coercion and suppression based on ideology/culture/economics can only result in anger, resentment and counter violence.

If someone, for whatever motive, tries to physically attack me and beat me up badly without any direct provocation (where I am minding my own business and not bothering anybody), I may be forced to resort to lethal force to protect my life, and I won't have any regrets.

The police is supposed to protect the freedom and rights of individual citizens of the country, if they are not breaking any laws. (As of now, people above 21 can go to pubs and drink alcohol, legally here in Karnataka).
If the police sit back and don't do anything while such gross violations go on unchecked, and don't take immediate drastic steps to punish the culprits severly, then people will be forced to resort to other means of self-defence and protection of self-dignity, which will lead to a lot of violence.

#50
anon
February 3, 2009
11:21 PM

Vaanar sena'a latest diktat - girls shouldn't wear noodle straps and tight jeans anymore. What countless invasions over a thousand years couldn't do to India those tiny noodle straps can - destroy Indian culture. Curse you Mandira Bedi! This is amusing! Kerty's respeonse justifying this is going to be even more amusing...

#51
anon
February 3, 2009
11:21 PM

Vaanar sena'a latest diktat - girls shouldn't wear noodle straps and tight jeans anymore. What countless invasions over a thousand years couldn't do to India those tiny noodle straps can - destroy Indian culture. Curse you Mandira Bedi! This is amusing! Kerty's response justifying this is going to be even more amusing...

#52
Anon
February 4, 2009
02:37 AM

"Vaanar sena'a latest diktat - girls shouldn't wear noodle straps and tight jeans anymore."

Nobody can actually stop anyone from wearing something or not wearing anything...not even parents are able to do that to their own children, no matter what an eye-sore their children's attire is. The wearers must just be aware that they may attract all kinds of attention - wanted and unwanted (like that of the Ram Sena's). No special protection can be provided though for the wearers of fewer clothes just to uphold their right to few clothes. There is a greater need for employing police and security forces to tackle bigger problems in the country.

#53
Sumanth
February 4, 2009
03:04 AM

"What you all are preaching is a civil war."

Is civil war wrong?

India deserves a civil war. A small 1% minority force their pseudo-liberal ideologies on masses.

In last 10 years severe attacks were carried out on various Indian social institutions by liberals.

These people championed in DC,"divorce is healthy for society. It improves economy."

Liberal continued their anti-Indian and hate-india campaigns. Anything Indian has to be hated.

NCW said,"adulterous women are victims".

Gender hate is being propagated in the name of "women's empowerment". False statistics on dowry deaths, domestic violence was propagated by liberals to defame and degrade India.

The liberals and congress are responsible for arrests and jailing of 1,23,000 women and 3 times more men in false dowry cases without evidence or investigation. The women were abused, insulted, threatened in police stations before being hauled to jails.

Indian police made 68 lac arrests in 2007 out of which 40 lac arrests were unnecessary or unjustified.

Indian police extorts millions from people.

As a result the suicide rate in India went by 40% in last 12 years.

Did you guys ever care about all these?
Did you ever care about masses?

You only want India to become a Europe with some imported culture.

Did Germany or Poland import cultures from outside?

The fucked up brains of this small 1% English medium educated selfish minority brainwashing people in media is responsible for present situation.

No one questions media bias.


These facts are enough for a civil war with deep divisions in the country.

Did you think about freedom of 1,23,000 innocent women who got jailed by Manmohan Singh Govt?

When terrorists attack, you want people to love the terrorists. But, the same Govt jailed 1,23,000 innocent women. Are these women bigger danger to society than terrorists?

Oh....May be you were in a pub dancing and enjoying life.

You the liberals told people to throw their elderly parents outside the house and you campaigned for laws for the same even though there is no social security in India.

Did you care about plights of millions of old people, who spent all their savings for education of their children and then thrown on street by their daughter-in-law just because of the campaigns of liberals?

The liberals have committed crimes by forcing stuff on people and laws, which are impractical in India.

For you man drinking is drunkard. A woman drinking is liberated.

For you women torturing men is the "progressive policy". Men doing the same is:"Bell Bajao".

1,15,000 men committed suicide due to torture by wives in last 10 years. Due to liberals these women were never punished.


Now face the music as the conservative people go to support the extremists.

If a million people wake up and get ready to take law into their hands to take India 20 years backwards (as it happened in Iran or Egypt), there will be great fun. The politicians have to listen to these revolutionaries.

One Sri Ram Sena is minority. But, then there will be 1000 such fringe groups around India, they together are no longer a minority.

Police will not do anything, when a crowd comes. He is afraid of danger to his own family. Give his Rs.500, he will happily watch.

In democracy masses matter.

Did people vote for "gender hate", "consumerism", "jailing innocents", "fatherless society", "anti-Indian and anti-cultural policies", "ass barring low waist jeans"?

Let us do a referendum in country,"if showing bare ass wearing low-waist jean is Ok or Not".

It is foolish to think that you can wish away Conservatives by continuous propaganda in some TV channels like NDTV.

In US and in Europe, conservatives exist in large numbers and they wake up with arms, when they sense threat to their cultures.



#54
kerty
February 4, 2009
03:29 AM

Anon

"What countless invasions over a thousand years couldn't do to India... - destroy Indian culture."

Do you think it was some sort of miracle or magic that prevented Indian culture from being destroyed by cultural invasions lasting for over thousands of years? Indian culture survived because every generation of Indians successfully defended it and propagated it for the next generations; every wave of cultural challenges was met with equal and opposite reactions at grass root levels - thanks to countless vanar senas that every generation produced in every community and locality.

Weather kerty has existed or not, weather kerty justifies it or not, equal and opposite reaction is bound to occur whenever Indian culture is perceived to be warred upon.

#55
Ayan Roy
February 4, 2009
06:10 AM

It really beats me - why don't the so called saviours of Indian culture actually concentrate on culture and preserving and patronizing the POSITIVE aspects of REAL Culture - i.e. Indian the arts, music, literature, drama, theatre, philosophy?! Why do they have to go around beating up people who may or may not agree with them but are enjoying themselves and minding their own business in their own way??

It shows that most of these people(they don't deserve to be categorized as human beings though) belonging yo Bajrang Dal, Sri Ram Sena, etc. are extremely cowardly, mean minded and have very small hearts, and are plain and simply EVIL.
"You can't do this! You can't do that! We'll beat you up!" (Basically you cannot be enjoying yourself and cannot have a good time - this is against Indian CULTURE?!)

Gutless b**stard rats picking upon defenceless women, that too in hordes of forty.. they don't even have any shame and masculine honour. Take these wimps to the border areas to fight like real soldiers - they'll piss their pants and run away the very next second a bomb bursts next to them.

If I personally was concerned about Indian culture (and I am in my own way - what I consider culture) I would try to take deep interest and immerse myself in Indian classical literature, poetry, arts, crafts, music, theatre, folk tales, pottery, food, dress, philosophy and spirituality which I consider to be real CULTURE.

I would try to be engaged in group activities and cultural events with like minded people and would try to spread Indian culture through positive means which would be more attractive and enticing to the common public.

I would try to show my peers that I am happy, am enjoying myself and have a rich set of hobbies which are part of our Indian heritage, instead of beating up girls at pub or protesting against Valentine's Day and trashing shops.

That sort of hooliganism is way beneath my personal dignity.

The arts are an excellent medium to channelize one's concerns, anger, frustrations about issues in a healthy and creative manner.
If I was so concerned about social problems facing Indian families, I would try to write and participate in street plays and theatre/films about those problems, and maybe write stories and articles about that. Madhur Bhandarkar has done an excellent job with 'Page 3' and 'Corporate' showing the ills of the fast paced, Americanized, urban yuppie rich lifestyle..

These Ram Sena/Bajrang Dal coward rats are a blot on the name of manhood and Indian culture, in my view.
Anybody indulging in such hooliganism and goondaism should be stripped and whipped in public and made to do hard labour in concentration camps..or even better, sent to the border areas to fight with real enemies where they can display their "COURAGE"

#56
Sumanth
February 4, 2009
07:07 AM

"If I was so concerned about social problems facing Indian families, I would try to write and participate in street plays and theatre/films about those problems."

It is too late for all that.

A lot of damage is caused by westernized bastards to Indian society, family, culture and they carried on with anti-indian and hate india campaigns.

Anyone who opposed them was termed as chauvinistic fundamentalist by Visual Media.

As I wrote earlier, the Germans, French or Spanish are not importing culture. Why should Indians?

Are Spanish and Germans doing Raksha Bandhan or Dandiya?

If we have that, then do we need Valentine's day?

We already have some 30 festivals in a year. Then, why do we have to borrow or import from west?

Because, they look inwards and are happy with what they have.

The hate mongering westernised UBI (unfortunately born in India) MacCauley's children have worked to degrade everything Indian.

Now, it is too late.

Imagine, tomorrow some 10,000 people who are running around courts start taking law into their hands.

Will you say that they should have done street plays, wrote to law ministry and media to appoint more judges?


=================
It is always easy to do post postmortem and suggest beautiful ideas.

It is too late and people have lost patience with hypocrites who control media.

Is it not a fact that there were attempts to force American or European culture on India?

Is it not a fact that a lot of culture was imported even, when we have enough culture of our own?

Is not it a fact that a lot of mindless experiments are forced on Indian society by westernised anti-Indian MacCauley's children?

There is bound to be "Clash of Civilisations".

It is boring in a world, where only one single culture ie. "European culture" exists.

World is beautiful because of colors of Rajasthan, Dances of Orissa, Silk of Kancheepuram, lamps of China and beerfest of Germans.

If a monolithic culture is created by cultural impositions and invasions using capitalist means, then there has to be oppositions or violence.

In last 60 years, the Indian Identity is suppressed and the only thing that is taught to Indians is to "Hate India".

A Govt run by an Italian lady has not done anything about these issues.

In fact, she promoted the notions that:

1) India family is oppressive.
2) Do not trust men.
3) Adultery is not a crime.
4) Adulterous women are victims.


At one time, Indians believed that the only thing positive about India is "Indian Family and the Sacrifices the Family Members do for each other."

===========
Today, these westernised bastards have defined "Indian Family" into criminal organisation.
===========

Do you now expect street plays to repair this?

Too Late....TOO LATE.....

India is on a CRASH Course Now....

Do you think, Indians will forgive and forget?

All those brainwashed fools wake up, this issue is not about men beating girls in pub. The issue is all about people not tolerating "ANTI-INDIANs".


If some people have hatred for Indians, Indian Family, Indian dresses, Indian Festivals, Indian food and Indian languages......they can fuck off to some of those western countries.....

The murder rate in US is two times that of India.

Without wondering why, people want to convert India into US.

It is too late for all the mindless experimentation.

If westernised creatures want to exist in India, they have to respect the Indian customs and India first. They have to respect Indian Family and Indian Languages first.

These intellectually disabled creatures study in a fucking "phonetically challenged unscientific" language borrowing from colonial era.

The more Indians accommodate these anti-nationals, the more they screw around showing their "bare asses".

Police should hit with lathis to those, who roam around showing their "bare asses" in low-waist jeans.

Is police doing that? Why not?

Now, do not say, we have to do a street play to teach people not to show their "bare ass".

#57
Prakash
February 4, 2009
07:25 AM

Well written article Roshan!

#58
Sumanth
February 4, 2009
07:35 AM

A soldier, who killed 8 Laskar-e-Toiba Militants met me.

He said, how he was betrayed and dragged to police station by a draconian law supported by liberals.

His only sin was to fight against terrorists in Kashmir leaving his wife and child.

The man who risks his life for country, what does the country give to him and his parents. Today, he can not see his child. Thanks to anti-nationals and Renuka Choudhury.

We talked about importance of cleaning the enemy inside the country.

===========
So, do not bring in the soldiers to this discussion.

If the soldiers are given a chance, they will show the westernised Anti-Nationals the real place,


==========

Soldiers fight at border to stop the enemies.

Here our "bare the ass" anti-nationals screw around and join with enemies and import their cultures.

Soldiers love their country.

We need a new revolution to remove the anti-national attitudes in the country.


#59
Roshan
URL
February 4, 2009
08:04 AM

@Prakash - Thanks! Appreciate it

@Sumanth - What!!!???

I understand that you don't want the culture to change from what you think it should be. But, can you please explain with maybe examples or facts the following:

1. "He said, how he was betrayed and dragged to police station by a draconian law supported by liberals."

What draconian law is this? Who is this soldier? What facts do you have to support your claim? I'd accept them without any questions if you show me the facts.

Btw, I have a brother who is in the army defending the country at the borders. And you'll be surprised to know that he's as much a 'liberal' if not more than I am.

2. "A Govt run by an Italian lady has not done anything about these issues.

In fact, she promoted the notions that:

1) India family is oppressive.
2) Do not trust men.
3) Adultery is not a crime.
4) Adulterous women are victims."

Could you please give me examples for each of the points you've listed. Actual examples, links to news reports, etc?

3. "1,15,000 men committed suicide due to torture by wives in last 10 years. Due to liberals these women were never punished."

Could you provide supporting evidence for the number you've listed above?

4. "Did you think about freedom of 1,23,000 innocent women who got jailed by Manmohan Singh Govt?"

Who are these women you are talking about? Could you provide links to these facts?

And finally, what's you obsession with 'bare assed' women in low jeans? I walk around my city and I don't see any such women. Which city are you living in ?? :)

#60
anon
February 4, 2009
09:13 AM

@ Sumanth: Just because YOUR life is really screwed up doesn't mean you wish civil war on the entire country. Its the same logic with all those attackers - their life is miserable so they want to inflict misery on others who are having a good time.

#61
kerty
February 4, 2009
09:58 AM

anon

"Its the same logic with all those attackers - their life is miserable so they want to inflict misery on others who are having a good time."

It could be that the life of those attackers is not miserable but they are having a good time making the life of those patrons of drug-dance-sex culture miserable. Hooligans attract hooligans. Hooligans deserve hooligans. That is poetic justice. Call it a b*tch, if you will, for Karma does not give a damn, for it follows logic of its own, and if one doesn't get that logic, that's just too bad.

#62
Sumanth
February 4, 2009
11:53 AM

Roshan,

Looks like you got birth just now.

Because, you do not even know the "draconian law which arrested and jailed 1,23,000 women".

Mahabharata is over and you are asking did Ganga kill 7 children?

-----
As I can not spend time on each individual to give evidences, please search for 498a in youtube, visit www.498a.org, savefamily.org, nation.net and saveindianfamily.org websites so that you can get all the details.....

(the sources are National Crime Records Bureau).

=====
This proves one thing, which is bad for feminists.

Men and Feminists are just sleeping.
=====


#63
Sumanth
February 4, 2009
11:59 AM

"Do not Trust men, Trust Condoms" said Renuka.

See the response...

http://mynation.wordpress.com/2007/07/23/buy-renuka-brand-condoms-only/

#64
Sumanth
February 4, 2009
12:15 PM

Just now....

Renuka Choudhury in TV:

"Muthalik is not married. So he does not respect women".

Let us extend this:
==================

"Girija Vyas of NCW is not married. Thats why she is against all men".

Further:

"All woman who are not married hate men."


Further:

Both Mamata Banerjee and Uma Bharati are not married, thats why they slap men.

Let us further extend this:
---------------------------

Renuka has no son. Is that why she hates women, who have sons? Is that why she is arresting those innocent women?


----
Wow.....this is Gender War now.....
----





#65
Sumanth
February 4, 2009
12:31 PM

Renuka coming to Bangalore on 14th Feb.

She is putting her hand in crocodile's mouth.

She says:
"If Muthalik tries to stop Valentine's Day I will take him on. Muthalik is not a married man. He would not know what to do, that is his problem. He should learn how to respect other genders. Since he is not doing that he does not belong to a democratic process. So his opinions dont matter to me," Renuka Chaudhary said.

She also added, "If Muthalik keeps talking the way he has been, I might just land up there (Bangalore) on February 14. He should be careful."
----------

What happened to feminists in Bangalore? Have they accepted defeat that Maharathi (the general) has to come from Delhi to fight in Bangalore.

Looks like all feminists foot soldiers and lieutenants are finished. Now, general is battling it alone.

(Wow!! To quell a rebellion, Aurengjeb is coming from Delhi.)

Now, in every single issue Girija Vyas and Renuka will keep flying all over India to fight.

If these two fall, then the story will be over.

============
SIFF is organising a Anti-Renuka, anti-498a protest at Gandhi Statue, MG Road on 14th Feb. We will blame Renuka for harassment and jailing of 1,23,000 women without evidence under section 498a.
===========

http://www.timesnow.tv/Newsdtls.aspx?NewsID=28612

#66
Roshan
URL
February 4, 2009
01:18 PM

@ Sumanth

I 'got birth' a couple of decades ago!

You've answered the point 1 I raised above. I'd expect you to justify your other statements, the one's I've listed under points 2-4. The search on section 498a does not help me understand those points.

Coming to the draconian law and section 498a - you mention that 123000 women are arrested under this section. In the year 2007 only 35667 women were arrested under this section. Check out this link at the National Crimes Bureau [ http://ncrb.nic.in/cii2007/cii-2007/Table%2012.2.pdf ]

I agree that there have been cases of misuse of this law by women. But I'm sure not all are cases of misuse. Secondly, if there indeed has been rampant misuse, you must target the real cause. Ranting against women isn't going to help.

Lobby for police reforms, so that our cops follow the law in the right spirit and not to victimize anyone. Lobby for change of laws or modifying 498a.

Maybe get the Ram Sena and other 'conservatives' to do the lobbying. Beating women in public and molesting them like they did in Mangalore are the very reason such laws exists and why they keep getting made stringent. This year's figures of people arrested for crimes against women will have 27 men from Ram Sena :)

By indulging in what they did and treating women like they did is not serving your cause at all. This shows women as victims and as a result these laws get strengthened. If you really want 498a repealed or diluted, stop violence against women first and do not support it. Lobby for change in laws by proper, legal, non violent means.

By the way, I found this CSR site which claims that as per their study 498a isn't being misused [http://www.csrindia.org/projects/research_Section%20498A.html ]

Finally, I'm still waiting for your response on my points raised above in my previous comments. I can't see a connection between points 2-4 I raised above and IPC 498a. Eagerly awaiting your response on that!

===================

This also proves one other thing, or so I'll assume, that you're a person personally affected by 498a.

=============================

#67
anon
February 4, 2009
02:09 PM

after having heard all these discussions and having seen the failure of people to understand the concept of law and order and nobody having a right to physically deny anybody's freedom (especially those moaning about liberals somehow having screwed up their lives!), I am absolutely glad that I do not live in the fucked up country like India. Sure, UK has its own issues. But my muslim wife, who likes to have a drink or two sometimes, can go alone at night with her friends and does not have to depend on my permission for anything. As far as India is concerned, hopefully, people like kerty and sumanth will live and die there and not ever spread their ideas here - me thinks, they have never had a good lay.

#68
Sumanth
February 4, 2009
02:26 PM

Roshan,

1,23,000 women were arrested in last 4 years and most of them jailed without evidence or investigation. They are considered guilty till proven innocent.

Police is not responsible for these arrests. As the law is such that the magistrate sends these women without evidence to jail.

The law says, people have to be jailed without investigation (it is cognizable).

---------
My problem is with hypocrisy.

Freedom of these 1,23,000 women is as important as freedom of girl's drinking in pub.

You and others did not look at bigger issue.
----------

Coming to dowry issue:

I and fellow activists pleaded with Renuka and Girija to appoint dowry prohibition officers to finish off dowry and extravagant marriages at the bud. They are not doing it, because dowry and marriage spendings are about 2% of India's GDP. Govt does not want to lose that money.

There are Govt banks, which give Kanya Vivaha Loans so that girl's parents can give dowry and spend in marriages.

-----------
You said, I should first try to solve all the problems faced by women, and then crib about misuse of dowry laws and 498a.

Good point.
-----------

Now, I say,"You please stop all the attacks done on Indian culture, punish all the people who defamed India with false statistics, and then talk about punishing Sri Ram Sena."

Is it fair? I am using your logic only.
-------------

I have proved that Congress Govt is anti-women and anti-family. Dowry and extravagant marriages are not stopped, because they do not want to.

Both Girija and Renuka should resign for their incompetency.
--------------

Our study shows, 50% of Indian women are abusive and indulge in domestic violence on children, husbands, elders and maid servants.

This includes:

Screaming,
Angry Outbursts,
Throwing objects,
Threatening,
extorting money,
Insulting,
Insulting relatives,
Cursing,
Calling a bastard,
Violence by wife's brother,
Violence by wife's father,
Half of Indian women abusive children (WHO study).


Can you please stop violence by these 50% women before standing for women's rights?







#69
kerty
February 4, 2009
02:34 PM

Roshan

"This also proves one other thing, or so I'll assume, that you're a person personally affected by 498a."

Did you raise the Manglore issue because you were personally affected by it? Were you beaten up by Rama Sena?

#70
kerty
February 4, 2009
03:11 PM

Sumanth

It seems men in 'liberal' India are treated as far more dangerous than AK-47 wielding terrorists - the rigors of evidence and testimony are deliberately made so impossible that most terrorists can never get convicted - when tougher laws with teeth are demanded to nail the terrorists, liberals cry about innocent people, rights of people and evils of police state. But in case of men, all one has to do is to merely accuse without any evidence and whole family is automatically deemed guilty and thrown into jails. Its a Kangaroo laws and Kangaroo court system. Demand the same for terrorists, and you will see the duplicity oozing from same liberals.

#71
Sumanth
February 4, 2009
03:39 PM

Kerty,

Due to Liberal extremists and Radical Feminists:

1) Husbands practically can not own a house in India.

2) Husbands can be thrown out of house anytime.

3) Wife's brother and father have the right to throw him out of the house and molest his sisters.

If he opposed, then he is considered violent.

4) Husband has no right to see his children for years.

5) Husband has no protection if his wife, her brothers and father hit him and threaten to kill him.

Even if he produces video recording of the same, they have "zero" rights.

6) Unable to bear the torture, if he runs away and stays in a hotel or guest house, he will be considered as a wife deserter and absconding criminal.

----------

It is said,"enemy's enemy is your friend".

Do not you think all these husbands and their families should join Sri Ram Sena?

After all, the Liberals and Feminists have Harmed them so much.



#72
Roshan
URL
February 5, 2009
12:28 AM

@ kerty - "Did you raise the Manglore issue because you were personally affected by it? Were you beaten up by Rama Sena?"

My bad and I'll apologise for that comment. Seems like Sumanth is passionate about 498a and being passionate about a cause is not wrong.

But, I have to disagree with his philosophy on going about working on it. It's the law he is against and should not direct his anger at the entire women kind and men whose thoughts are different from his.

@Sumanth,

I'm not for one moment being casual about Human Rights. I believe that these are sacrosanct. But what you are preaching isn't logical. You seem to be saying that because a few women somewhere file false cases and get their husbands arrested, it's ok to beat up women in pubs and to molest them who have nothing to do with the false cases!!

How's that helping your cause at all? It's akin to saying that the cops should arrest you and your group of friends for the Mangalore assault! You should be punished for Ram Sena's attacks! Someone commits the crime and someone else gets punished!

I did not say that you should first fix all problems of women before opposing 498a. I'm saying address the cause for misuse of 498a and fix those. All you'll do by beating up women is strengthen the very laws you want diluted!!

You say you have 20000 strong group who oppose 498a and have statistics on misuse of the law, human rights violations etc. You seem to have proof of correspondence with the government about this and it hasn't responded. Why doesn't you group file petition in the Supreme Court asking for a relook at these laws because of violation of human rights and misuse? I'm sure there must be other legal and right means to get your points across and get things done. Beating up innocent women isn't going to solve anything! It'll just undermine your cause.

#73
Anon
February 5, 2009
06:21 AM

"because a few women somewhere file false cases and get their husbands arrested, it's ok to beat up women in pubs and to molest them who have nothing to do with the false cases!!"

Actually, according to feminists it's the other way around...

...because a few women get beaten up or molested by men in homes, pubs etc., it is okay to for women to file false cases and get their husbands and their kin (who have nothing to do with beating or molesting anyone) arrested.

Sumanth is just stating that fact.

#74
Roshan
URL
February 5, 2009
06:33 AM

@ Anon,

Actually, it's not. I haven't stated that anywhere. False cases are false cases and they should be quashed. I haven't justified filing of false cases because women get beaten up or molested in pubs. These are 2 different things. One wrong doesn't justify another wrong!

But, you and Sumanth seem to be justifying the attacks on women because a few women file false cases implicating their husbands or in-laws. Moreover, I don't think the Ram Sena had section 498a or women filing false cases in their minds or agenda while attacking women.

And you guys still haven't answered my question. How is attacking women in pubs and restaurants solving the issue you have with 498a? How is it helping you and your cause? I don't understand you supporting it other than maybe gaining sadistic pleasure seeing helpless women being tortured and molested!

#75
Anon
February 5, 2009
06:38 AM

"Someone commits the crime and someone else gets punished!"

Unfortunately, it is like that in India. That is how 1,23,000 women got arrested under IPC 498a in just 4 years.

"I'm saying address the cause for misuse of 498a and fix those."

The cause of misuse of 498a is the mindset of people who support the idea of innocent people getting arrested and suffering for a crime done by someone else in some other point in history. It is the mindset which makes people sleep until they are at the receiving end. Fixing that problem is work-in-progress.

"Why doesn't you group file petition in the Supreme Court asking for a relook at these laws because of violation of human rights and misuse?"

Will you help do that because you are a potential victim too?

"I'm sure there must be other legal and right means to get your points across and get things done."

Sumanth is warning that after legal and right means are exhausted some people may run out of patience if their voice is still not heard. This can eventually lead to formation of fringe groups like Ram Sena which might resort to violence. That is when the fake statistics of violence against women might start becoming real.

"Beating up innocent women isn't going to solve anything! It'll just undermine your cause."

Arresting innocent people does not solve any problem either and it is slowly undermining the feminist cause.

#76
Anon
February 5, 2009
06:46 AM

"Actually, it's not. I haven't stated that anywhere...I haven't justified filing of false cases because women get beaten up or molested in pubs."

No, you haven't, and I haven't claimed otherwise.

"These are 2 different things. One wrong doesn't justify another wrong!"

ASOLUTELY! Very well said!

"But, you and Sumanth seem to be justifying the attacks on women because a few women file false cases implicating their husbands or in-laws."

No, Roshan. It is a misunderstanding. We do not support beating up anyone. We are just questioning the double standards of people.

"Moreover, I don't think the Ram Sena had section 498a or women filing false cases in their minds or agenda while attacking women."

True. But some day there might be some other Lakshman Sena that might come up for exactly that reason.

"How is attacking women in pubs and restaurants solving the issue you have with 498a? How is it helping you and your cause?"

You are right. It doesn't.

"I don't understand you supporting it other than maybe gaining sadistic pleasure seeing helpless women being tortured and molested!"

As I said, we do not support assaulting anyone. Just questioning double standards by showing a mirror image.

#77
Roshan
URL
February 5, 2009
08:03 AM

@ Anon
"Arresting innocent people does not solve any problem either and it is slowly undermining the feminist cause."

Maybe true, but I don't condone or justify arresting innocent men because some men beat up women! You seem to be justifying molestation of innocent women because some women falsify cases! That's some twisted logic and twisted sense of justice!

"Will you help do that because you are a potential victim too? "

NO, I wont. I don't believe in the cause. You can get help from good lawyers. Pool in money from the 20000 men you have as part of your group and file some petition in the courts. See where that takes you. It does seem like you have all your statistics in order.

#78
Anon
February 5, 2009
08:55 AM

--"You seem to be justifying molestation of innocent women because some women falsify cases! That's some twisted logic and twisted sense of justice!"

Please refer to post #76 where clarification has been provided on this point and let me know which part of "We do not support assaulting anyone" you did not understand. And BTW, twisted logic and twisted sense of justice is what feminists and liberals have propagated and rely on, not us. We are simply pointing out how it looks in the mirror. I know it's not pleasant.

---"NO, I wont."

I didn't think you would either.

---"I don't believe in the cause."

Which cause? That of protecting fundamental rights and human rights of citizens? Understandable!

---"You can get help from good lawyers."

Yep. Just like the molested women from Mangalore and those who are afraid of Ram Sena violating their right to go to pubs and those whose audio systems are being taken away by party-pooping cops.

---"file some petition in the courts. See where that takes you."

Sure and you do the same for the protection of your fundamental rights and human rights when your turn comes, be it the cops entering your private property and taking away your audio system or even taking you away or beating you and your friends partying at a pub because you were with your girlfriends who wore sphagetti straps and low-rise jeans. See how that goes and let us know through another blog post.

#79
Roshan
URL
February 5, 2009
08:57 AM

@anon
"No, Roshan. It is a misunderstanding. We do not support beating up anyone. We are just questioning the double standards of people. "

I'm glad I can start understanding you point of view now. Questioning double standards is good. But, I don't think there was any double standard in the post.

I don't agree with strong arm tactics used by few to impose their views on others. Secondly, this post was only about attacks in Mangalore. It had nothing do with IPC 498a or false cases being filed. These are 2 different issues. There is no double standards. I condemn Mangalore attacks, but at the same time I do not approve of false cases being filed and misusing 498a.

Even the people you call liberals have very little or no info on IPC 498a. What you should do to gain support is publicize the misuse. I guess this is one forum to do it and you have to a certain extent. Double standards exist if someone condemns one incident and supports other. I don't think that's what's happening. They are condemning one while being ignorant about the other.

#80
Roshan
URL
February 5, 2009
09:01 AM

@ anon,

Post 76 was published while I was writing #77 in response to 75. Which is why I didn't see it. # 79 is in response to 76.

And yes, if my rights are violated, I will take to the courts. I will not be supporting other people's rights being violated or justify it in any way because my rights were violated.

#81
Suresh ram
February 5, 2009
11:05 AM

//And yes, if my rights are violated, I will take to the courts.//
Have you ever approached any court for justice. If not talk to someone who has been dragged to court!
It takes normally 5 to 10 long years to get a verdict be it just or unjust.
It is not the sentence painful but undergoing trial is!!

#82
commonsense
February 5, 2009
11:23 AM

Suresh Ram:

""It is not the sentence painful but undergoing trial is!!""

yeah, there's a good reason why it's called a "TRIAL"

#83
Sumanth
February 5, 2009
01:19 PM

Roshan,

-------
I do not justify beating of women by hooligans.
I am only asking questions.
-------

Does your personal opinions or beliefs make any difference?


You asked:
========================
"Why doesn't you group file petition in the Supreme Court asking for a relook at these laws?"
========================

Perfect. We went to Supreme Court of India.

Supreme Court on 20th July 2005 gave judgment that "misuse of 498a can lead to legal terrorism".

It also said,"dowry law is a shield, not an assassin's weapon".

----------
So, Supreme court called these women as "terrorists" and assassins.

Now, tell me, can we now beat up these "terororists and assassins and those who harbour them?"

Govt is not ready to that? Can we?
----------
Do not you think, Terrorists and assassins have to be killed to stop them from spreading further terror and assassinations?
----------

I am exploring options in a dialogue.

I am not saying mindless violence is justified.


498a misuse is the symptom, not the root.

--------------------
The root is: Gender Hate propagated by Liberals.
--------------------


They brainwashed UN to get funds. They did so much propaganda that Ann M. Venemann, UNICEF director claimed that in India every year 25,000 women are killed or maimed due to dowry.

The world trusts UN. When our Liberals go to UN and brainwash people there just to get some million dollars in funds, tell me what should I do?

==========
Do not you think, it is a crime if I defame you? Will not you sue me, if I defame you?

If yes, then please let me know, how big a crime it is, when a nation of 1.13 billion people, is defamed?

It brings tears to my eyes, when I see these criminal liberals betraying my country by joining with external anti-nationals agencies.

Do you want me to run pillar to post and stand outside UN office with begging bowl requesting them,"please do not defame my Nation"?

The Liberals have committed crimes agains the Nation and its people.
==========

The Liberals in Bangalore went to Oprah Winfrey show and said:

"Bangalore is Bride Burning Capital".

They said, every year 1100 women are burnt in Bangalore due to dowry.

They sold "mother India" for a few thousand dollars of funds.

Tell me, what should I do?

Beg? Plead? Request? Do street plays? Go to Mahesh Bhatt? Go to Bomman Irani? Beg to NDTV?
==========


Now, what is to be done to these Liberals?

Is not the crime by these liberals in any way less than what Sri Ram Sena has done?

#84
Sumanth
February 5, 2009
01:25 PM

So far as my anti-women views are concerned, I will stop the day liberals stop "anti-male campaigns".

I have only got views. They have got campaigns.

#85
Slime_id
February 5, 2009
01:52 PM

It is not the culture in tolerance, beneath our posteriors we have some likes and dislikes. The culture control is an ongoing activity and the reactions only serve to enforce the myth of culture control.

what do you think, the ram sena don't like sexy bikini clad Indian ladies. they wud oogle, with their eyes. will that stop them from issuing dikats? No because they want an agenda.

what do you think does Renuka Chowdhury want the women rights more than the liberated men? if so, she is a fool as she has only enforced USAID agenda to penetrate the capitalist businesses . I say USAID as Hillary Clinton will run the show and the hidden agendas behind the veil of women power. It was not a joke that first law passed by the Democrats was equal pay.

The same liberal democrats look the other way when it comes to father rights, gun laws, every rights that identifies the uniqueness of a Man. It was no surprise when they ask for 900 billion dollar sanction with ideas on birth control, arts etc where they will create novel jobs.
These ideas look well in an inflationary scenario not in depression. Will Renuka explain why she gives 1 Lakh to every girl child born in India? Will it chnage attitudes in Rama Sena ? will Renuka explain why she wants female condom vending machines? Will she explain why she wants to stop cooked mid day scheme towards which 53000 crores of money is sanctioned by government? why are the laws made to create lucrative corrupt business? Why was Richard gere defended by a lawyer on molestation , why is the same Supreme court lawyer against execution of afzal khan, and same working with NCW with laws, and the same lawyer appointed and UN payroll? who is paying Richard gere, who is paying this lawyer, whats the agenda behind tibet rights? whats the agenda behind insurance and health companies entry in India?

Directly lets ask, did HLL lobby with Renuka? are our children playing health with big lady? If not why was PMO upset? Why is Narcotics control in India so lax? why are pakistan and afganistan issues still linked with opium, and what has renuka and UN doing to create laws in India
?

#86
Kaiser_Soze
February 5, 2009
03:13 PM

It is wrong to isolate Mangalore incident from the larger problem which is more sytemic, viz, patraichial attitude of the State and the elites runnng it.

If "wayward" men in rural areas are beaten up and intimidated to give up alchohol, then these women were fair game as well. It is women groups that indulge in these activites(raiding and beating up of rural men who drink), all in the name of social good.

How dare we uphold paternalistic behaviour looking down on rural men, while placing urban women on pedestal for a similar deed?

Are not rural folks part of Indian democracy? Are they not entitled to same protections as the rest of us? Can they not go to bars in rural areas and drink? If they are automatically judged as wayward drunks then, the Mangalore females are wayward tramps by similar judging standards.

Now liberals, Congress-chamchas, feminazis and other jholawallas are getting a taste of their own medicine.

Life used to be comfortable for these paternalistic elites back when people were bullied unhindered by them. Now with tables turning and similar tactics deployed by the opponents, the left wing do-gooders are all in a tizzy!

#87
kerty
February 5, 2009
03:24 PM

Slime

"It was not a joke that first law passed by the Democrats was equal pay."

That law does nothing but create chilling effect on hiring. The law gives any woman a blackmailing power to sue any company and extort windfall money from it or exact revenge for settling personal scores.

If you look at payroll in small to mid-size businesses, the wage rates usually vary among employees based on when they were hired, their skills and experience levels, their negotiating power at the time of hiring etc. The variation in pay rates has nothing to do with gender, because such variations exists among male employees too.

In my gas station, I have 3 male cashiers earning different hourly rates. In my ex-restaurant, my all-male kitchen staff and all-male waiters earned different pay rates. The variation in pay rates has nothing to do with discrimination or gender. But this law makes any variation in pay scales controversial, illegal and subject to costly litigation by disgruntled female employees to ruinous effect for the small businesses. Under the new law, female employees can sue the employer and extort windfall moneies. This law can open can of warms for businesses that most small to medium size businesses would rather not deal with. Since it exposes businesses to big liabilities and lawsuits, most businesses would rather avoid hiring females if they can hire males to do the same work. I stopped hiring them when some of the businesses whose owners I personally knew were slapped with trumped up sexual harassment charges that nearly devastated their businesses and families. The new law is one more tool of feminist extortion from businesses by disgruntled female ex-employees. Though majority of women would never abuse these laws, you would be surprised how many women and lawyers would see it as their ticket to windfall lotto.

As business are struggling and trying to survive by trimming their operations, costs and staff, such laws is the last thing business need. These kind of laws create dis-incentives for hiring, especially hiring of females. Obama should have come up with incentives that help business grow and hire more staff. In stead, he did just the opposite.

Obama gets a big "F" on his very first act as a President. By the time this guy is done 'rescuing' the economy, he will have brought so much ruin to the business world and people's pocket books that people will look back at the state of economy under Bush era with fondness and nostalgia.

#88
Anon
February 5, 2009
06:52 PM

Young Mumbai doesn't want kissing in public

Fri, Feb 6 01:20 AM

Worried globalisation is corrupting the minds of the youth? Well, don't be. This week the Supreme Court set a precedent after ruling that a married couple kissing in public did not amount to "obscenity", but Mumbai's GenNext are horrified.

They say kissing in public is against Indian culture, offensive to elders and an imported western custom that should be banned. At Mithibai College in suburban Vile Parle, Priyanka Patil (16), a first year student at NM College, from Kandivli, said kissing in public could corrupt the minds of young people, while Sonali Shah (18), a student from Borivli, said it would hurt the sentiments of elders.

Esha Shah (18), a student at the Mukesh Patel School of Technology Management and Engineering, from Goregaon, said it was "western culture". "We want to keep Indian culture.

We don't want to be western." Sitting on the steps outside Fun Republic, a multiplex in suburban Andheri, Class XI Hemangini Deshmukh (16), said: "Its against sanskar (the right way to live) to kiss in public.

I would not like to see anyone doing it." His friend Keyur Buddhdev (17), also from Andheri, said: "You have to show respect to older people.

" Sohit Sarkar (25), a creative head in a TV company, added: "It will take time for India to digest this thing." The older business crowd was also appalled.

"We want to save Indian culture. This is what westerners do," said Kirtishwar Kishore (29) a marketing professional from Chembur.

"The most important aspect of Indian culture is giving respect to elders." But the youth agreed it should not be a criminal offence.

However, there was also the odd detractor. "I think kissing in public is fine.

It is against Indian culture but I don't mind," said Prerna Singh (15), a student from Sathaye College, who lives in Andheri. "I kiss my girlfriend in public," said Rahul Pandey (18), a first year BSc student at Mithibai College, also from Andheri.

"And I've never been arrested. I kiss her in the middle of the street.

Obviously you should not go further than a kiss." However they were in the minority.

The one thing students were unified on: they did not want to see Valentine's Day banned. Avani Jain (16), of NM College, who lives in Andheri, said: "Valentine's Day is about the people you love - your friends and family.

It's not about couples.".

Hindustan Times

#89
Kerty
February 5, 2009
07:43 PM

Anon

God, people do not live by supreme court dikkats. It shows how morally and socially corrupt Indian Kangaroo courts are to their core.

Valetine is associated with ushering in the culture of teen dating and romance, teen sex and pre-marital sex, adultry/swinging among couples, open marriages, sexual experimentation among youth, committment-phobia, commercialization of sex and porn, gender and sexual politics, politics of sexual abuses and rape, divorce and family breakups, abortions and foster homes, single moms and live-ins - these trends feed off each other and ride on each others' back. They are glamorized in the media and championed for social tolerance and acceptance.

No wonder proponents get so reviled when their revered cultural institutions and landmarks are attacked. Valentine, pubs and disco, dating, public exhibition of romance etc are important institutions of counter culture, which youth are recruited to imbibe and champion. Attack on any of their land mark makes them feel insecure and scared. In an attack on a remote obscure pub, each one of them see a personal stake. Some of them feel their secret adulterous relationship being threatened, some of them see their open live-in relationship being attacked, some of them see their blooming teen affair being questioned, some divorcee single mom sees her existence being stitgmatized. These are the new 'Dalits' of our age and they want recognition, acceptance and power. They do not want to live on the fringe of society as outcasts. They want power, they want the whole society to be like them, they want the power to make whole society in their mirror image. They want to impose their culture of vice and dysfunctions on whole society, but they do not like to be imposed upon one bit. You can hear then loud and clear.

#90
commonsense
February 5, 2009
08:17 PM

Kerty:

""Valetine is associated with ushering in the culture of teen dating and romance, teen sex and pre-marital sex, adultry/swinging among couples, open marriages, sexual experimentation among youth, committment-phobia, commercialization of sex and porn, gender and sexual politics, politics of sexual abuses and rape, divorce and family breakups, abortions and foster homes, single moms and live-ins - these trends feed off each other and ride on each others' back."

as well as global warming, the current recession, the invasion of iraq, the nonsense that so-called commonsense spouts, yellow beansprouts, bounced checks, obama, the declining polar-bears etc. etc.

#91
commonsense
February 5, 2009
08:27 PM

anon,

it was the same situation in singapore, malaysia etc. a couple of decades ago; and in japan three decades ago! go there and check it out what it's like now. have those societies collapsed due to so-called "western" influence? change is invevitable, except from a slot machine.

and of course there's always the "dosti pub" in the suburbs of chicago (shaumberg??) where lord kerty has created a pub that is cordoned off from the so-called "corrupt" values of the west, even though it is in the heart of the west. or so he claims! perhaps we can beg him to open a chain in India, such that the baleful influence of the "west" can be kept at bay

#92
Anon
February 5, 2009
08:55 PM

Renuka gives call for "Pub bharo andolan" to beat moral police.

"Turning the iconic freedom struggle slogan " jail bharo" on its head, Minister of State for Women and Child Development since Renuka Choudhary on Thursday suggested that the only way to tackle the moral police was to launch a " pub bharo andolan". " Read more on TOI online.

Renuka thinks that is ONLY way but I know what else people can do to beat moral police. During freedom struggle people shed their sweat and blood, in this new freedom struggle freedom fighters should shed their inhibitions and clothes a la Pooja Chauhan to show the moral police that they cannot be forced to cover their bodies.

#93
Anon
February 5, 2009
09:05 PM

The Hindustan Times article shows that young India is not just a group of individuals with the exact same views or vision for the future. There are young people who want some changes and not some others. ABVP women's wing did a protest the other day in Bangalore demanding banning of pub culture.

Commonsense tells us that change is inevitable, but it does not tell us about the direction of change.

#94
commonsense
February 5, 2009
10:16 PM

Anon:

""Commonsense tells us that change is inevitable, but it does not tell us about the direction of change.""

Too many delusional prophets will merrily specify the direction of change. why worry? change happens. shit happens.

#95
commonsense
February 5, 2009
10:18 PM

Kerty:

"Valetine is associated with ushering in the culture of teen dating"

most Valets simply usher in cars of those who patronize the valet culture of high end pubs.

#96
commonsense
February 5, 2009
10:20 PM

all jokes aside, i agree with kerty and anon. it is real discrimination that the afghan people have the taliban as their moral police, while we indians are denied the same basic rights. double standards for sure. i applaud the sri ram sena for leveling the playing field.

#97
Kaiser_Soze
February 5, 2009
10:29 PM

@commonsense post no #91:

Japan, Korea, Singapore have modernised themselves. It is not same as westernisation. At least thats how they debate their issues ie. modernisation vs westernisation.

#98
Anon
February 5, 2009
10:41 PM

Indians have never been denied the basic right of moral policing. Liberals and conservatives do moral policing, it is just that the moral policing done by liberals is state sponsored right now.

#99
Sumanth
February 5, 2009
11:24 PM

Are Young Germans doing "Dandiya" inside Oktoberfest?

If one has neurons in brain, then they will think without parroting NDTV or TOI.

Does Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, carry a tabloid with pictures of scantily clad women like "Times of India"?

One of the most used German Phrase is:

"Do not Disturb a Working System".

The English Medium educated idiots, can not get the good habits from other countries.

As Anon rightly said:

"Liberals and conservatives do moral policing, it is just that the moral policing done by liberals is state sponsored right now."

============
India is a tolerant country.
The Conservatives do tolerate a lot of nuisance.

However, how long people will remain silent, when anti-Indian, hate Indian family, "degrade India" culture is being propagated through massive advertising and brainwashing?

Every debate in TVs is fucked up from beginning.

If Renuka is given a chance, she will make it compulsory for everyone to go to pub "Pub Bharo" and "bare ass in low waist jeans".
===========

Wah!!


The new Morals by Renuka:

Pub Bharo! "Gaxxd Kholo!!

What a change!!

Next "great moral":

"Incest Karo"!!

And then cite some Indian examples to prove that incest existed in India since ages.


=============

Join Family => Nuclear Family => Single Parent Family=> GAY Family => Incest Family => Animal Sex Family=>.......


It is all about choice! Baby!!

#100
Roshan
URL
February 5, 2009
11:39 PM

There seems to be rigid stance taken by sumanth and anon. They reel out statistics provided by the state on misuse of 498a, but refuse to accept the same state's stats on dowry deaths and actual harassment of women.

@Sumant,

Can you point me to the right Supreme Court ruling? Was it a ruling or an observation?

Second, why do you have to worry so much about what someone goes and says in Oprah show? Why do you have to base yours and your country's self worth on what others think about us? When you blame some liberals about defaming India, why don't you talk about all those who make our country proud? You reel out stats and facts which are very one sided and your view isn't rounded.

@Suresh ram, yes, I will approach the courts if my rights are violated. I will not attack others or justify attacks on others because my rights were violated.

@slime_id

The government is giving 1 lakh for every girl child born to encourage people to accepts girl child and try and improve our sex ratio. Due to female infanticide and foeticide sex ratios in a lot of states in India is dismal.

Female condom vending machine - if men can have condom vending machines, why not women? I don't see a problem here. It will empower women to decide if they want to be have kids or not.

Stopping of mid day meal scheme...not sure about that. If she is doing that, then I don't agree with that.

Richard Gere was defended because as per our constitution, it's his right to be defended. He wasn't in a molestation case, but a case of public indecency. He supports tibet because he believes in the cause. Why should you have a problem with that? At least he isn't resorting to violence in support of his cause.


I'm really surprised by the amount of anti women sentiments here. Someone has a problem with equal pay for equal work. Next you might say women shouldn't be allowed to vote or come out in public. Just rigid stances and no space to accept other's point of view. This way there'll be no dialog, just arguments and counter arguments.

#101
Sumanth
February 6, 2009
12:08 AM

Roshan,

We are not sitting in the negotiation table with you.

We are sitting in the negotiation table with Renuka Choudhury, NDTV and anti-nationals on other side.

So, do not tell us to change our positions based on your personal views.


Did you get that?


You wrote:
"When you blame some liberals about defaming India, why don't you talk about all those who make our country proud?"


When you and liberals blame "some" conservatives, why do not you talk about all those conservatives who make our country proud?


=====
I will remain rigid (if you feel so), till NDTV, Liberal anti-nationals, Renuka Choudhury and Radical Feminists remain rigid with their views.
=====

You have got enough data from us.

Give me statistics on Dowry deaths and harassment of women right now....


#102
Sumanth
February 6, 2009
12:22 AM

Roshan,

You told to me:
"You reel out stats and facts which are very one sided and your view isn't rounded."

Yes. You are right. We reeled statistics which is "HALF" of complete picture.

Take the other HALF of statistics from NCW and you yourself make it rounded.

Fine. Got it?


Let me help you.

===========

Sumanth and Men's Rights Organisations:

One out of 2 women "at least once between age of 15-49" are abusive towards:

children or men or women or elders or maid servants.

Abuse is:

Screaming,
Angry outbursts,
cursing,
blackmailing,
threatening,
insulting,
hitting,
slapping,
throwing objects,
getting hit by boyfriends, brothers, fathers or mercenaries.


Do not get disturbed by the method used above.

======
The bitches used exactly same method to churn out women's harassment (DV) related statistics and formulated international policies and forced it down the throat of Indian people.
======

Now, let me make it rounded so that you can learn:
=================================================

The one-sided, statistics on domestic violence by on Indian women (between age 15-49) at least once in life time is: (National Family Health Survey)

37%.

===========
Now, I hope it is somewhat rounded for you now.

50% Indian women are abusive.
37% Indian women face abuse.
===========

Are you happy now?!!

#103
Roshan
URL
February 6, 2009
12:31 AM

You aren't sitting on any negotiation table Sumanth. If you were, you wouldn't seem so frustrated, since you'd have had a dialog going with someone.

From your comments all I understand is that you are posting comments here and ranting without any concrete action, while you claim to be negotiating with someone. You've hijacked a post on Mangalore attacks and twisted it to reflect your 498a agenda where there's no connection between the 2. The connections that do exist are in your mind.

I feel like I'm talking to a wall almost with you having no space for accommodating other views. I did acknowledge problems with 498a when I saw the facts your provided and did tell you that it is wrong that it's been misused. But I find it very weird and twisted that you are justifying one totally unrelated wrong because of a wrong somewhere else.

Even if you do sit on a negotiation table, you will reach no where because of such rigid stance! And all other comments about liberal media selling our country and blanket blame on all women, liberals just shows your paranoia!

I don't have stats on dowry deaths or actual cases of women being harassed. I'll try and get that.

Just one question, you keep sayin 123000 women arrested, how do you know all of them are innocent? Domestic violence is a reality and all 123000 wont be innocent victims of the system

#104
Sumanth
February 6, 2009
01:07 AM

Roshan,

Your wrote:

"I'm really surprised by the amount of anti women sentiments here. Someone has a problem with equal pay for equal work. Next you might say women shouldn't be allowed to vote or come out in public."

Now, see the "MIRROR" of the same below:

----
I am really surprised by the amount of anti-male sentiments in India.

Someone (Renuka, Girija and Radical Feminists) have a problem with "equal crime, equal punishment". For them, adulterous women are victims, where as adulterous men are criminals, who need to be jailed.

Men have no protection for violence inside homes and next you will say......men should have no protection inside workplace as the fascist "sexual harassment at workplace law" is passed.

What next:

Sonia's Govt may next proceed to subvert the parliament to deny the right for men to own property or inherit it.....


========
Roshan,

Now, you do not give your personal views on this.

Do not say,"I want Gender neutral laws and I am not anti-male, hence Sumanth should stop his taking his anti-women position".

I am not negotiating with you.

My views are not a function of your views.
My views are function of what the Liberals, and Radical feminists are doing to society.

Do not tell me to get into a dialogue with them as they themselves do not want a dialogue.


I am a masculinist and am a mirror image of "feminist", I also fight for equality and I am as biased as a feminist.

========
I know, people in India tolerate anti-male sentiments in TV and media. Men are called beasts, men are slapped (Kit-Ply ads), men are joked about "chopping off of their penis", and men are presented as aggressors at home in Bell bajao Campaign by UNIFEM".

My goal is to create equality here.

I want to make people in India tolerate anti-women sentiments.
==========


Equality can not be subjective, or domain specific. Today, women shout equality in domains where they are disadvantaged, where as they oppose equality vehemently in the domains, where inequality favours them.

When questioned about this, they cite historical injustices and justify that today's men have to be tortured by today's women, for crimes committed by 16th century men on 16th century women.

They also use "biased, one-sides statistics and views that are not rounded to show women are disadvantaged in present India."

For example, 55,000 husbands committed suicide compared to 29,000 women.


-----------
Showing the Mirror is my way of protest, it is my street way of street play to create awareness.

I am sorry, if you do not like it.

I am very clear about what I am doing.
I am showing the mirror to people and I am not afraid.

I am 100% sure, intellectual masturbation is ineffective in solving a problem.
-----------

The Radical Feminist and Liberals have got billions of dollars or Tax payer's money world wide (including UN) to discriminate and carry out propaganda, do street plays, TV ads towards "discriminating men, elders and conduct mindless experiments".

I work without money.

So, I use Mirror.

Do you remember what Archimedes did to Massive Roman Navi with Mirrors?


#105
Sumanth
February 6, 2009
01:42 AM

Roshan,

You are talking in thin air.

How did you know, I am frustrated? I am not taking actions?

This post is about "intolerance". I am writing about "liberal intolerance, Govt intolerance and policing of "perverted morals" by liberals.


Let me tell you my actions:

1) I was in negotiation table with judges and we were in negotiation table with ministers, Kiran Chaddha and UNIEM on 25th June, 2008 and numerous other times.


2) Because of me and our 20,000 activists across 20 centers around India and world, we made Govt make CrPC 41 amendments, a small step.

because of us, President criticised dowry law misuse.

3) I met Pramod Muthalik, taking time off from internet day before yesterday

and told him to oppose anti-Indians, who are degrading India, who are getting funds from vested interested. I told him to campaign against "low waist jeans".


(I do not support Sri Ram Sena's actions of beating females Drunkards in pub).

4) I campaigned and got articles into media opposing both dowry and extravagant marriages.

============

You said, "you saw a wall".

Because, you are not able to break through my argument.

It is the JOB of Renuka, Girija to stop dowry, extravagant marriages and to stop scaring people from having girl child. I and my organisation SIFF has given them full support. But, they do not want to do anything as it increases GDP. They are incompetent.


I am doing campaigns for last 4 years.
From some 200 people, I helped create an army of 20,000 people in 4-years.

----------
You started with blaming conservative intolerance.

I showed that Liberals and their supporters as as intolerant as unjust as conservative extremists.


You said,"intolerance is rising".

I also said the same,"liberal intolerance has become too much".


You did not anticipate this.

So, stop cribbing now...

For you, conservatives are bad people and

liberals are good people.

========
You are biased and your views are not rounded.

That's why you see the same in others.
========

#106
Roshan
URL
February 6, 2009
02:04 AM

I'm glad that you have taken action on towards your cause and I stand corrected.

You're right, I did not anticipate this kind of, almost hatred, towards one half of mankind and towards whom you call liberals.

This post was about intolerance. But i did not mention anywhere that it was about conservative intolerance. Intolerance is intolerance. Any person violating the fundamental rights of others and imposing their views is wrong. Liberals, by the definition of the word will not impose anything on anyone.

Conservatives aren't bad. People who indulge in violence are bad.

And again, your grudge is against women who file false cases. What's your obsession with women in jeans, low waist at that? How is what someone wears related to someone else filing false cases? This is what I haven't understood. I've conceded that there is a problem with 498a, but I don't understand how women in jeans are causing you trouble. Then start a campaign against men in jeans as well, why target only women? Ask everyone not to wear jeans as it's not really an Indian attire...could you please explain your problem with women in jeans it's connection with your cause?

#107
Roshan
URL
February 6, 2009
02:07 AM

I'm glad that you have taken action on towards your cause and I stand corrected.

You're right, I did not anticipate this kind of, almost hatred, towards one half of mankind and towards whom you call liberals.

This post was about intolerance. But i did not mention anywhere that it was about conservative intolerance. Intolerance is intolerance. Any person violating the fundamental rights of others and imposing their views is wrong. Liberals, by the definition of the word will not impose anything on anyone.

Conservatives aren't bad. People who indulge in violence are bad.

And again, your grudge is against women who file false cases. What's your obsession with women in jeans, low waist at that? How is what someone wears related to someone else filing false cases? This is what I haven't understood. I've conceded that there is a problem with 498a, but I don't understand how women in jeans are causing you trouble. Then start a campaign against men in jeans as well, why target only women? Ask everyone not to wear jeans as it's not really an Indian attire...could you please explain your problem with women in jeans it's connection with your cause?

#108
Sumanth
February 6, 2009
04:26 AM

Roshan,

You wrote:
"Liberals, by the definition of the word will not impose anything on anyone."

Exactly. So, whom you see in TV or in blogs are not liberals, they are pseudo-liberals with stiff views about everything including conservatives or women's issues.

They are self-appointed "know everything" opportunists.

I am a liberal and I am a individualistic person.
I love questioning.
===================

I have no grudge against women.
I have so many female friends who all know what I am and that I fight for men's rights.

I have no grudge against 498a.

I oppose biased, one-sided attitudes in society.

I am not against women, who file false cases.

-------------
I do not blame a monkey.
I blame people, who give gun in the hands of a monkey.

Who gave them the gun? Pseudo-Liberals and Radical feminists.
-------------

These biased attitudes led to torture of Dasaratha and Santanu by their wives. Even if, it is a old story, still it shows that victimised men are denied their rights and men are give tough and violent roles by society and their pain is trivialised.


I am against borrowing culture from west.
I am for modernisation without westernisation.

======
"Are women wearing low waist jeans causing me any trouble?"

No. They are not directly causing me any trouble, when they show 10% of their crack once in a while.

It is "visual pollution" and it reduces the space for my vision, while going on the road.

However, it will be a social trouble tomorrow, if Sri Ram Sena guys show 50% of their Penis in the malls using the same choice.

--------
In short, it is all about drawing a line.

If Liberals, Feminists, women and men do not draw a line, then others will also do the same leading to a conflict.
--------

If people fail to "self-police", the state or the represenatives of the community will have to police.
--------
=======================
See, I have found that those who have power, position or money, dictate the policies, cultures or civilisations.

I have a problem with that.
=======================


Everyone should have right to have a say.
The poor people also should have a right to say.

Today, politicians, western brands, pseudo-liberals are dictating the policies, cultural changes and the civilisation.

Do they have bigger brains?

Did people vote them?


===========
It is a common pattern of thinking that:

"Focusing on Concerns will reduce Concerns".

But,
It is common spiritual knowledge that:

"Focusing on Concerns will actually increase the problems"

"Focusing on Muthalik will empower him".

Here is the Radical Statement (very difficult to digest):

"Focusing on "Victimhood of Women" is the main reason behind "female foeticide". I do not deny that there are no other reasons like patriarchal reasons.

The more stringent laws are made against dowry, the more dowry increases.
==========

It can be mathematical established (or using Systems Thinking) that resistance leads to reinforcement.

One of the way to win is to make enemy resist you or get angry at you.

The more the enemy or opponents resist or grow intolerant, the more you gain and control the vicious circles in a chaotic system.

Thats what Al-Quida does.
==========

Shocking Facts and a Radical Statement (which you will find very difficult to agree):
=======================================

Renuka and NCW are giving Pramod Muthalik Publicity and are empowering him.

Why?

1)
May be, they can not tolerate him.

2)
May be, they are smart.
They want Pramod Muthalik to grow so that he eats into 5% of BJP votes and Congress gains out of this.
=============

Now, let me extend:
-------------------

The Patriarchy weakened women's movement by promoting and funding the "radicals" in women's movement so that the movement can be discredited.

For example, Patriarchal creatures control UN and they appoint Radical feminists in stead of equity feminists.

-------------------

The solution is:
-------------

National Debate

#109
commonsense
February 6, 2009
09:02 AM

Kaiser-Soze:

""Japan, Korea, Singapore have modernised themselves. It is not same as westernisation. At least thats how they debate their issues ie. modernisation vs westernisation.""

So, kissing and holding hands in public is "modernization" but not "westernization"? a rose is a rose, regardless of the name attached to it. so, why don't we tell the ram sena members that pub culture is modernization, since it happens in Japan, singpore, malaysia etc. that ought to calm them down. thanks for pointing this out!

#110
Kaiser_Soze
February 6, 2009
10:07 AM

@commonsense: #109

Thats not what I implied. Read my reply(#97) again. Nobody is perfect and immune to problems. Westernisation has crept into these societies(Japan, Korea).

They see it as an assault on their culture and are worried about its effects. First it was pubs. Then it led to drugs, sex and unwanted pregnancies.

There is an ongoing debate between modernisation(education, technology, political freedom,etc)and creeping westernisation(sex, drugs and rock'n'roll, single-parenting).

Maybe if we do not bury our heads in the sand and try and learn from somebody else's mistakes...

Funny, why people are not so shrill about this issue when rural folks are at the recieving end.

#111
commonsense
February 6, 2009
10:10 AM

Roshan:

"And again, your grudge is against women who file false cases. What's your obsession with women in jeans, low waist at that? How is what someone wears related to someone else filing false cases? This is what I haven't understood."

Yah! That's what I'm dying to know too!! low-rise jeans obviously trigger something off in Sumanth and bring him to a boiling point!

Roshan: are you new to DC or what? I mean nobody, as in nobody at all, seriously argues with Sumanth! Most folks here have better things to do, such as read my snide asides!

#112
Roshan
URL
February 6, 2009
10:50 AM

@commonsense

lol...not really new, but haven't been active for a while now.

And yeah, 100 odd comments later I finally realized that I was wasting my time replying to Sumant. I'm wiser now :)

#113
Suresh ram
February 6, 2009
10:58 AM

#111
commonsense
//What's your obsession with women in jeans, low waist at that? How is what someone wears related to someone else filing false cases?//
It is not the poor women from the villages or slums who file false 498a cases. Even when poor women in whatever dress go to police, as the husband is poor no extortion takes place and nobody is arrested.
But most of those who file 498a are "women in jeans, low waist at that".(The judges or Police love to have them in them presence )
Only when someone goes to jail on a false charge at the instance of the person who they loved most would one understand wheather it is pain or obsession or whatever it is.

#114
Roshan
URL
February 6, 2009
11:29 AM

Ram Sena turn kidnappers now?

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/ram-sene-back-in-action-kidnaps-mlas-daughter/84659-3.html

Allegedly, right now. Police case has been filed.

#115
Aaman
URL
February 6, 2009
12:00 PM

Roshan, please do consider writing an article about this unfortunate incident

#116
commonsense
February 6, 2009
01:48 PM

Kaiser Soze:

"Westernisation has crept into these societies(Japan, Korea)."

yeah, like some germs, right? crap-talk!

"They see it as an assault on their culture and are worried about its effects. First it was pubs. Then it led to drugs, sex and unwanted pregnancies.There is an ongoing debate between modernisation(education, technology, political freedom,etc)and creeping westernisation(sex, drugs and rock'n'roll, single-parenting)."

more crap-talk is the best way to describe this crap-talk, fueled by self-delusion.

#117
Kaiser_Soze
February 6, 2009
02:00 PM

@commonsense #116


Sure son, if it doesn't fit in your agenda then its crap talk. I don't blame you for becoming a prisoner of your own ideology.

#118
Kerty
February 6, 2009
02:18 PM

Aaman

"unfortunate incident"

Damn. That must have disappointed media folks because the Moslem boy and Hindu girl were not beaten up.

#119
Aaman
URL
February 6, 2009
02:29 PM

Hmm, they didn't follow orders then? Dang! That'll look bad on their status report!

#120
commonsense
February 6, 2009
02:38 PM

kaiser soze:

"creeping westernisation(sex, drugs and rock'n'roll, single-parenting)."

yes dad, "the west" is surely responsible for all of the above, except of course for "rock and roll"

#121
Aaman
URL
February 6, 2009
02:44 PM

CS, Wasn't Sita a single parent?

#122
commonsense
February 6, 2009
02:55 PM

Aaman, maybe, but I sure don't want to attract the attention of the Sri Ram Sena!

But "rock and roll" was for sure invented in Bhatinda. I was present at its inception! The rest are all "western" inventions. Hence it is that in Tokyo or Singapore as Daddy Kaiser Soze rightly points out, one would be hard-pressed to find pubs, alcohol (another name for DRUGS) or single moms!

#123
commonsense
February 6, 2009
02:58 PM

Suresh Ram:

"But most of those who file 498a are "women in jeans, low waist at that".

Yah, how low can one get?!

#124
Aaman
URL
February 6, 2009
03:04 PM

drunken single moms in pubs listening to rock 'n roll?

#125
Kerty
February 6, 2009
03:05 PM

Aaman

"Wasn't Sita a single parent"

Sita was not single when she become mom. She was duly married. She was not divorced when she became mom. She did not live by herself as a single mom - she lived in a Ashrama among learned Rishis and their families - her kids were raised bu Rishi Ashrama. Just like Rama had spent good part of his childhood and youth in the Rishi Ashrama.

In many part of of India, there is a tradition of pragnent wife leaving the husband and living in her maika for a year or so. That does not make them to be single moms.

#126
commonsense
February 6, 2009
03:20 PM

Kerty:

"She was not divorced when she became mom."

another version claims that she had allegedly filed for divorce, but the dumbass lawyers messed up the paperwork, or some such thing. Although I don't believe this version and agree with Kerty's version of the events.

#127
Kaiser_Soze(Big Daddy)
February 6, 2009
03:51 PM

commonsense..@122

Pappu,

Stop foaming in the mouth.

Have I said that there are no problems in Tokyo or Seoul? Please pay attention when you scan messages with your eyes. Again let me repeat: They(Far Eastern societies) have their own usual social problems associated with their culture.

They also have problems associated with westernisation, like atomicization of family, kids raised in single families, dangerous recreational drugs, STD's, etc. which they believe are now on the ascendency because of libertine western practices. Now these problems didn't pop up with the flick of a switch. It was gradual.

First came the pubs. Then came the dealers to these pubs. Then the crack-whores. Then the swingers and so on. Now if you happen to be indulge in any of these reacreational activites, then bully for you. I am not judgemental.

Ram Sena is not wrong in its basic premise. "Pub Culture" of course being a euphemism for westernisation. They are certainly worng in their approach to the problem(beating up patrons and using force).

Maybe these pubs do need some public supervision. Maybe the swingers, gropers and crack whores need to indulge in their hobbies in private spaces and not in publc areas/bazaars or restrooms of pubs. When they roll-up a Benjamin or a Gandhi, let 'em do it in their drawing rooms not on WC's.


#128
commonsense
February 6, 2009
04:12 PM

Daddy Kaiser Soze:

"They(Far Eastern societies) have their own usual social problems associated with their culture.

They also have problems associated with westernisation, like atomicization of family"

The atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were pretty tragic events, so please don't trivialize it by calling it the "atomicization of the family"

#129
commonsense
February 6, 2009
04:20 PM

Daddy Kaiser Soze:

"kids raised in single families, dangerous recreational drugs, STD's, etc. which they believe are now on the ascendency because of libertine western practices."

Daddy,

1. "Single families"? I believe it would be more problematic if kids were to be raised in "double families". One family is headache enough. Might I suggest Philip Larkin's poem "Families, they Fuck you Up"?

2. "Libertine"? I believe the correct spelling is River Tyne (yes, western, in Britain), unless you were attempting to spell Rhine?

#130
commonsense
February 6, 2009
04:25 PM

Daddy Soze:

"Ram Sena is not wrong in its basic premise. "Pub Culture" of course being a euphemism for westernisation. They are certainly worng in their approach to the problem(beating up patrons and using force)."

Certainly. Why can't they just make faces instead of beating up patrons?


Daddy Soze:

"First came the pubs. Then came the dealers to these pubs. Then the crack-whores. Then the swingers and so on."

You got the sequence wrong Dad. Most kids love swinging, especially during the sawan months. In fact it's hard to find a kid who doesn't like swings. Only later do they go into pubs etc. And the sadists among them, don't mind getting beaten up by the Ram Sena either. One's person's pain is another person's pleasure, you see.

#131
commonsense
February 6, 2009
04:32 PM

Daddy Soze, it is nice that you are concerned about the problems of children growing up (or down?) in "single families". However, for another viewpoint, please try this famous poem by Philip Larkin (1922-1985) for size:


This Be The Verse


They fuck you up, your mum and dad
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

#132
commonsense
February 6, 2009
04:41 PM

Big Daddy Kaiser Soze:

"Now if you happen to be indulge in any of these reacreational activites, then bully for you. I am not judgemental.""

"bully for you"?? that's a new one, even for me.

#133
commonsense
February 6, 2009
05:29 PM

Daddy Soze:

"Have I said that there are no problems in Tokyo or Seoul? Please pay attention when you scan messages with your eyes."

Sorry Dad! I plead guilty to scanning your messages with my feet. No disrespect intended, and I hope none taken.

#134
anon
February 7, 2009
05:41 AM

"She did not live by herself as a single mom - she lived in a Ashrama among learned Rishis and their families - her kids were raised bu Rishi Ashrama."
This is interesting. Wonder what the "learned" rishis taught sita??

As for the poem.. haven't read a more meaningful one for quite sometime.

#135
anon
February 7, 2009
05:43 AM

"She did not live by herself as a single mom - she lived in a Ashrama among learned Rishis and their families - her kids were raised bu Rishi Ashrama."
This is interesting. Wonder what the "learned" rishis taught sita??

As for the poem.. haven't read a more meaningful one for quite sometime.

#136
Suresh ram
February 7, 2009
11:09 AM

#123 commonsense
//"But most of those who file 498a are "women in jeans, low waist at that".
Yah, how low can one get?!//
As low as anyone's mind can stoop.

#137
kerty
February 7, 2009
11:46 AM

Suresh Ram

Women used to belive that the way to the man's heart is thru heart - Dil Se. It aspired women to be great lovers and companions.

Then the standards fell a little. It probably had to do with domesticity that love ushers in. Women felt the the way to the man's heart is thru his stomach. It made women aspire to be great cooks and domestic maids.

Now the standards slipping again to the lower parts of the anatomy. The way to the man's heart is through his dick, and the way to his dick is thru T & A. The stage is set to aspire women to be great item girls and sluts in pubs. In these little slut machines, you drop few quarters and bingo, you win orgasms.

How low can it go? It is on to last legs. And you know what they do with legs - kick some ass. That is what people will aspire to be and do - who can kick whom, who can walk out on whom. Rama Sena is just a trailer - the picture abhi baki hai.

#138
Anadiya
February 7, 2009
12:18 PM

There is more to a woman than being with a man. There are so many women nowadays who are single and in their thirties and at the heights of their careers. They don't want to get married, they don't want those strings.

Or many of them are now getting married late into their twenties and even mid thirties. It comes so easy for you to call a woman a slut but what do you call a man who chases anything that walks in a skirt, dress, saree or salwar kameez?

People who believe your kind of argument have one set of morals for men and another for women. Can we call such men - man sluts?

Indian men want to do their aunties, their cousins, even their mothers! Now if I say that you sure won't like it and it isn't true. Indian men are not perverse idiots neither are Indian urban women sluts!

Your animosity has no sound bases and it just shows your bias. Whatever be their sexual lives it isn't any of your business just as it isn't my business as to what you do with your private life.

Its so easy to be judgmental about others lives. What about yours huh? What if I asked you what I am doing right now?

What if I asked you if you are so against Western morals what are you doing sucking on America's teat? Did you tell them how you felt about their degenerate society and its effects on India and the world before you gave in your papers for the Green Card? Or did you wear your I love America placard across your chest?

However we women want to live and love is our business. You don't like the current breed of Indian women you don't have to mingle with us. We don't want to be around men like you who think we are sluts or whores.

You really are living in a different world thinking we would do anything to catch a man. What a laugh. Come to India and voice this opinion in front of any woman between the age of twenty to forty and your ass will be kicked hard.

We don't take shit from men like you or any other.

Get it Mr Kerty?!



#139
commonsense
February 7, 2009
12:28 PM

Anadiya:

""Get it Mr Kerty?!""

ha ha, will he ever! a tall order/question for unadulterated chauvinist and so-called, self-proclaimed "nationalist" ideologues

#140
Anadiya
February 7, 2009
01:01 PM

Commonsense, I know ...I know but he and that other fellow so get my goat! I come here and bhoom! my blood pressure goes up!

#141
kerty
February 7, 2009
01:20 PM

Anadiya

"There are so many women nowadays who are single and in their thirties and at the heights of their careers."

Every job a single career woman does takes away a job that can feed a whole hungry family. In a country of billions that can not have jobs for every family, it is a crime to siphon off scarce jobs to deprive needy families of livelihood. Its a rationing time. One-job-per-family, maam. No hoarding or siphoning of jobs, unless they like being lynched by hungry mobs.

"They don't want to get married, they don't want those strings."

You mean, they like to hop around and sleep around like sluts.

"what do you call a man who chases anything that walks in a skirt, dress, saree or salwar kameez?"

Being slut comes naturally to men. They come biologically programmed and they have to be de-programmed. That is why woman power is called a civilizing force - it civilizes and domesticates men. To the extent women power fails to achieve it, men will remain exhibit beastly traits. If women power chooses to becomes slut power, men will become thousand-fold more slutty. If women becomes beastly, men will become demonic. There is a direct co-relation, cause-and-effect.

"Indian men want to do their aunties, their cousins, even their mothers!..it isn't true. Indian men are not perverse idiots neither are Indian urban women sluts!"

Can we keep it that way? All the things you allude do happen in societies, including in India on a smaller scale - what keeps it from happening on a larger scale and to every person is set of cultural values that most people are still able to live by and society as a whole is able to uphold. Lets strengthen those cultural values, shall we? It is unfortunately that some people, out of ideology and politics, do not see any stake in it.

"what are you doing sucking on America's teat?"

So that others do not have to. As they say, sometimes, you have to go to the mother of the problems. If you want to slay the demons, you got to slay their mother first - so that she does not keep multiplying demons while one is busy slaying and depleting the demons. That is the first lesson of Rama Sena, err sorry, Ramayana.

#142
Anadiya
February 7, 2009
01:39 PM

You sound like one of those Wahhabi ulemas. Glad you are there and not here. Stay there and let Americans read what you just said and deal with you accordingly.

#143
smallsquirrel
February 7, 2009
02:06 PM

kerty, so are so ignorant I do not know why I am bothering. but let me clue you in right now. I bet I make 3 times what you do. And I support my whole family. I do not know what kind of stupidity you are espousing that there should be only one job per family, but it doesn't even make any economic sense.

YOu know what Kerty, I am not even going to say anything about your views on America. We welcome all kinds here, even ignorant bastards. We even try to give them jobs and let them grow and prosper.

As for the utter bullshit you espouse about women. so be it. I do not care about your backward views. but do realize your views make it obvious why you are such a miserable person. you are obviously very unhappy, and it is because you hate yourself and everyone else. I am happy with myself. I have never been a slut, but I have enjoyed my life. You are simply jealous of freedom... freedom of life, thought and deed. you are stuck. personally, professionally, everywhere. like a clogged gutter. the fact is that you want to believe these things because you are so unfulfilled. but in reality kerty, we woman are just stronger, and you are a silly boy.

#144
Sumanth
February 7, 2009
02:16 PM

[EDITED - PASTE-JACKING]

#145
commonsense
February 7, 2009
02:25 PM

ha ha SS and Anadiya. and you thought talking to kerty was like talking to a goat! infinitely worse.

please don't feed trolls. because that is MY job :)

#146
Roshan
URL
February 7, 2009
02:43 PM

@Anandiya - nice comment. I thought at least with that Sumanth and Kerty might finally see some sense....but I was sooooo mistaken! :)

@kerty

"Every job a single career woman does takes away a job that can feed a whole hungry family. In a country of billions that can not have jobs for every family, it is a crime to siphon off scarce jobs to deprive needy families of livelihood. Its a rationing time. One-job-per-family, maam. No hoarding or siphoning of jobs, unless they like being lynched by hungry mobs."

I've tried reasoning with you guy and you guys didn't respond. So, I wont try anymore. Just 3 letters for that comment of yours...

WTF????

"Being slut comes naturally to men. They come biologically programmed and they have to be de-programmed. That is why woman power is called a civilizing force - it civilizes and domesticates men. To the extent women power fails to achieve it, men will remain exhibit beastly traits. If women power chooses to becomes slut power, men will become thousand-fold more slutty. If women becomes beastly, men will become demonic. There is a direct co-relation, cause-and-effect."

Again, WTF?

#147
Sumanth
February 7, 2009
02:57 PM

[EDITED - PASTE-JACKING, NOT RELEVANT TO ARTICLE]

#148
Sumanth
February 7, 2009
03:05 PM

[EDITED - PASTE-JACKING, NOT RELEVANT TO ARTICLE]

#149
Sumanth
February 7, 2009
03:32 PM

Karnataka Govt is not tough on the "moral police", just the way Girija Vyas, NCW and Renuka shield "legal terrorists".

Congress is intolerant just the way Sri Ram Sena is intolerant if one takes into account the violence that happened in 1984. So, both Congress and Sri Ram Sena have to be banned.

Join Jagoree, and do not vote for Congress or Sri Ram Sena or BJP.

Vote for Mayawati. Her party workers have never committed such large scale violence.

#150
commonsense
February 7, 2009
06:47 PM

Kerty:

""Being slut comes naturally to men. They come biologically programmed""

Maybe! But even if kerty believes such tripe, he should, like most incorrigible misogynists, at least get his terms right! Most misogynists (not to mention misanthropists like him) label such men as "studs" not sluts. As Roshan says, WTF! (What the FISH??!)

"being slut comes naturally to men". HA HA...such buffoonery is priceless! Go ahead, call me an anglophile!! Make your day!!

#151
commonsense
February 7, 2009
06:50 PM

Kerty:

""Being slut comes naturally to men. They come biologically programmed""

Yessir, indeed!! Just as our friend is biologically programmed to display and revel in his own self-righteous ignorance!

#152
Suresh ram
February 7, 2009
09:02 PM

#138 Anadiya
//However we women want to live and love is our business.//
Is not Love when it become business is the oldest profession?

//There is more to a woman than being with a man. There are so many women nowadays who are single and in their thirties and at the heights of their careers. They don't want to get married, they don't want those strings.//
What is this called? Self Traffiking of women?



#153
Temple Stark
URL
February 7, 2009
10:43 PM

Wow i'm all for bare-ass but do Indian conservatives approve of "fucking?" In language or otherwise? Because I was shocked and offended to see that word in such a harangue. And what about haranguing because that can be downright kinky in the right hands?

#154
Aaman
URL
February 7, 2009
11:01 PM

You know what Al Stewart said about how it grew to be less like fucking and more like making love...

#155
Temple Stark
URL
February 7, 2009
11:10 PM

By the way, paste jacking sounds like something some of the more socially repressed in society would pay for.

#156
smallsquirrel
February 8, 2009
08:06 AM

temple... hahahahha. (#155)

yeah, and then kerty and ledz would whinge about it. and sumanth would claim is was criminal repression of men by women in "jeans pants"

#157
Slime_id
February 8, 2009
11:53 AM

It is weird, the problem is not between men and women. It is not with feminists and the non henpecked men.

It is the problem with Henpecked society. ah ha! There we go as long as society is henpecked, the society deserves whatever it gets. be it rapes, corruption.

Why do women want jewellery? Henpecked society provides them. Do most Indian women know the value of jewellery they hold collectively. All this female wealth will remove poverty from our poor country. and they say women are not powerful?

#158
Sumanth
February 8, 2009
03:04 PM

In the end, I see the overconfidence of pseudo-liberals regarding their confrontation with conservatives.

One can see that from the call to "vote" the conservatives out.


Pseudo-liberals somehow feel that Sri Ram Sena is just an isolated phenomenon and they can convince the masses around India about "liberal view points".

These pseudo-liberals suffering from ostrich syndrome, refuse to see the patterns (even when Renuka says the rot is deeper than it seems).

They fail to see that more than 90% of Indians do not watch English Television and masses in general do not like "change".

The other issue is,"people do get bored with so called "change", when they realise that "change" can be a mirage and change does not necessarily lead to something tangible like "happiness" or "security".

As I take feedback from BJP guys in Bangalore, more and more common people are disapproving the hybrid culture using very simple non-intellectual processes. I can see the SMSes even the non-BJP guys forwarding to each other.

For these common people,'lack of disciple in life leads to misery". They see the consumerist culture as something which addicts people.

======
They are clearly saying,"if a mother drinks, how can she put values in her children?"

These guys do not understand the language of equality and they do not understand what they can get out of "equality" for themselves or their lives.
======

(I have no problems with women and men drinking.)

The conservatives are more united here and if they get focused in voting against "westernisation", the pseudo-liberals just do not have the "numbers".


If someone goes with 20,000 pamphlets to Khammam Lok Sabha Constituency of Renuka Choudhury saying,"Renuka wants your children to fill the pubs and become drunkards", she is finished in next elections.

By the way, it is a well known fact in media that Renuka Organises parties for various politicians across party lines regularly and employs beautiful girls to serve them.

#159
Sumanth
February 8, 2009
03:54 PM

One of the problem with Conservatives is:

"They can not attack a woman as they find it below their dignity".

Finally, Yeddyurappa calls Renuka Choudhury,"Irresponsible".

-------
Bangalore, Feb 8 (PTI) Karnataka Chief Minister B S Yeddyurappa today dismissed as "irresponsible" the statement of union Women and Child Development Minister Renuka Chowdhury that there was a "breakdown" of law and order in the state, in the wake of the Mangalore incidents.
Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of a function here, he said those involved in the abduction of the MLA's daughter had been arrested and an inquiry was on.
------

Law and Order:
--------------

Let us compare Karnataka with Andhra Pradesh.

The Dowry harassment cases at 4 times more in Andhra.

The DV in Karnataka is one of the lowest in India and is lower than many western countries in the world.

For example, number of women who completed schooling facing DV ever in lifetime is just 6% in Karnataka (Source: NFHS). In US, it is about 29%.

---------

Someone must teach conservatives to make vicious "personal remarks", just the way Renuka Choudhury does.

Renuka regarding Pramod Muthalik:
---
"We'll have to speak to his mother. I wonder how she raised him. We'll have to ask her where he gets this attitude."
---

Such women need similar derogatory personal attacks.

Renuka in meeting: I know. I am also a mother.

Swarup Sarkar,
SIF leader to her on face:

You do not have a son. So, how can you understand suffering of a mother, whose innocent son is in jail?

#160
Suresh ram
February 8, 2009
09:11 PM

""Muslim protesters have attacked controversial Bangladeshi writer Taslima Nasreen during a book launch in Andhra Pradesh state in southern India.
Lawmakers and members of a political party assaulted the exiled feminist author as she presented a translation of one of her novels in Hyderabad.
Ms Nasreen, who backed into a corner, said the attack was barbaric but pledged she would not be cowed.

#161
Roshan
URL
February 9, 2009
12:24 AM

@Sumanth - I know it's useless replying to your comments, but I shall anyway. You keep hijacking posts with you comments on domestic violence and anti women hatred.



There's absolutely no connection between 498a, women misusing the law and what happened in Mangalore. In Mangalore, a bunch of goons are telling the whole society what it should and it shouldn't be doing. In case of your pet peeve, it's a matter between 2 people which got out of hand. The women involved in these cases are not telling rest of the society how to live their lives.
You should write a detailed post on 498a and comment there about this.

Today, they tell us not to go to pubs, not to mix with people of different religion, not to celebrate Valentine's day all in the name of protecting our culture. Once we agree to all of this, tomorrow they'll ask us not to listen to western music, not watch English channels or movies because that was never part of our culture. We'll comply.

Next they'll ask us to stop eating Pizzas and Burgers and French fries as they aren't Indian food and is against our culture. Our ancestors never ate any of this, so we shouldn't either. They'll ban all of this and we'll be quiet.

Then they tell us women shouldn't get out of their homes and work as it wasn't our culture. Women are to be confined in their homes to cook and look after the kids. They'll ask us to stop watching TV and radio as our forefathers as part of the culture then, never indulged in these 'evils', so we shouldn't either! Then they'll dictate what we should be wearing, after all, Jean, shirts and pants really isn't Indian culture is it? Sree Ram never wore pants and shirts? What about shoes? What about cars, 2 wheelers, plane? That wasn't part of any of our culture? Maybe planes can be allowed since Sri Ram used Pushpaka Vimana, right?

Where will this stop? People move with the times, culture changes with time. Otherwise, in the name of protecting culture, we'll need to change a lot of things that have changed over the years. All the progress the world has made was never really part of our culture, was it?

I believe in Ram and have faith in God. But what these goons are doing is just politics for narrow gains in the Name of the Lord.

#162
Aditi N
February 9, 2009
12:34 AM

Roshan to Sumanth "I know it's useless replying to your comments, but I shall anyway"

Don't.

You have no idea what a plague you will be bringing upon yourself. He will write a 5 page comment pasted from somewhere into your comment thread and we will have to spend time editing reams of his pointless B.S.

So just kindly ignore him. He is not interested in a discussion at all. Trust us, I started like you did and actually responded and now after editing comment after comment of his rant I have realized that they are not here for a discourse at all, just here to market their own cause.

You know how sometimes spammers will send you porn...well, this is kind of like that. Except of course porn could be more fun. And this is definitely not. :)

#163
Roshan
URL
February 9, 2009
12:53 AM

lol...I shall start ignoring him from now. :)

It's just that I get irritated when the comments are sometimes so irrational and I reply hoping that he'll see some reason in what I have to say.

#164
Deepti Lamba
URL
February 9, 2009
01:00 AM

Roshan, here is a tip- write another article to get your mind off this one. Works for me every time;)

#165
Anon
February 9, 2009
01:01 AM

Human rights are the same no matter who you are, conservative or liberal, man or woman, or what part of the world you are in. If talking about how liberals and radical feminists have forced upon us, policies and laws that violate human rights is porn, talking about Mangalore incident violating your individual freedom is also porn.

You can't save birds without saving the trees.

#166
Suresh ram
February 9, 2009
01:02 AM

[blathering edited]

#167
commonsense
February 9, 2009
10:21 AM

Roshan:

"I reply hoping that he'll see some reason in what I have to say."

something to be said for eternal optimism. on the other hand, something to be said for learning it the hard way too!

#168
Sumanth
February 9, 2009
12:41 PM

Roshan,

You wrote:

-------
"Today, they tell us not to go to pubs, not to mix with people of different religion, not to celebrate Valentine's day all in the name of protecting our culture. Once we agree to all of this, tomorrow they'll ask us not to listen to western music, not watch English channels or movies.....

Where will this stop?"

-------

Let me answer this with couple of questions:

1) Are not you extremely defensive? Do not you feel threatened?

I think you are. In such situations, the mind clouds the judgments and you are forced to react.

Who is afraid here?
Who is reacting?

If you are powerful, you will not react.
If you are reacting, you can not fight the cause, or any cause.

2) Do you see that the focus of many of your statements were inwards? It is all about me...me....us and me.....

When it is the question of your freedom, you are concerned. This approach is not going to help you contribute for a solution.

3) You and many others feel reacting to Sri Ram Sena or cultural policing is the best way to prevent the situation.

One of the reaction was: "Pub Bharo".

Do you think this highly reactive behaviour will help?

4) In this world, things do not just happen in isolation. Liberal extremism does exist and people have not noticed it till now.

Tomorrow, Sri Ram Sena beats up girls smoking cigarettes, and imagine you or your buddies calling for "nation wide smoking on Feb 20th".

Do you think thats the best way to tackle a situation?

5) Tell me, is radical feminism intolerance or not? You may say it is unrelated?

How?!! The media itself made the connections by bringing women's issues into this.

6) Why are you or Aditi so uncomfortable about disagreements?

Is blogosphere supposed to be a place where everyone agrees with everyone else and starts "you scratch my back and I scratch yours" sort of conversations?

7) "Denial of Freedom" in India is not a new thing.

It may be for you now.

Do you know, in India, the state formally denies people the right to have sex many times?

How many men or women care about it?

8) Do you think a bunch of 20 people (or say even 2 lac people) can take away freedom of a billion people?

People know what they want.
No one tolerates oppression.

The people who drive themselves on hatred turn on their own people first.

Look at Taliban in Pakistan and whom they are killing now.

Look at Indian feminists and whom they are oppressing and throwing in jail. In stead of protecting women, they are throwing them in jail.


9) If you trust the people of rural India and the 900 million conservatives, why do you have to fear?

They will rein in Sri Ram Sena.

10) Did you ever wonder why Sri Ram Sena or Shiv Sena exists and who joins these organisations?

Did you think about how to make people not go to these organisations?

11) Did you try to find views of masses about the slogan "Pub Bharo"?

Or do you feel, only your views matter and why you should give a damn about views of masses?

12) Is 498a unrelated?

I had to bring in 498a, to prove the double standards applied to intolerance.

I had to use a tool or example to show the double standards.

How can I prove that Renuka, Girija, or NCW are as intolerant as "Sri Ram Sena" if I do not refer to 498a or adultery?

The connection happens the moment Renuka Choudhury and NCW got involved.

I had to show the real face of these two ladies and I had to show how they treat women.

I had to show how these ladies deny basic human rights to 1,23,000 women.

13) On one side, there is Sri Ram Sena and Conservatives and on the otherside there is Renuka, NCW and Media.

My intention was to prove that both sides of coin are intolerant.

Your point of view was, only Sri Ram Sena is intolerant and Girija/Renuka are fighting intolerance as they are tolerant people.

I had to challenge your view point.
For that I had to bring data, statistics and 498a.

14) Why are you more concerned about I giving this uncomfortable example than Renuka Choudhury and Media empowering Pramod Muthalik by giving him wide publicity?

---------

15) Do not you think, it is culturally difficult to tolerate anti-women views than anti-male views?

16) I did contribute to this discussion showing that there are enough evidences of intolerance on both sides.

It is just like one set of extremists feeding energy to other set of extremists.

Calling "adulterous women victims" or calling for "pub bharo", "smoke madi" is also intolerance.

17) Blaming someone's mother is intolerance.
How Pramod Muthalik's mother is involved in the incident that Renuka started blaming her.

#169
Sumanth
February 9, 2009
01:06 PM

Roshan

You wrote:

"All the progress the world has made was never really part of our culture, was it?"

What?!!
What kind of fucking statement is that?


Mr.Reasonable, now name which other culture in the world created all the "progress"?




Commonsense, Aditi,

This is the exact reason, why I lurk here and I behave like a wall. That's when the truth emerges.

Here is a guy who feels, India or its culture never contributed anything to world or the cultures of the world.

The Liberals and Anti-Indians have misled people so much that some people are feeling India and Indian culture never contributed to any progress in the world.

So, 1/7th of world's population for last 2000 years did not contribute anything to anyone.
Wah!!

Did anyone ever ask, Chinese, Arabs, SouthEast Asians, Africans and Europeans about India's contributions, when the vikings were slaughtering people in Europe?

#170
Sumanth
February 9, 2009
01:23 PM

Who is intolerant?

Are the people who invalidate India, Indian family or its culture tolerant?

#171
kaffir
February 9, 2009
01:57 PM

Sumanth, good comments, and I agree. We have people who do yoga and meditation, and know from first-hand experience that Ayurveda works, yet do not see any value in them or don't speak up about these positives. It's likely their shame about being a Hindu (why? I don't know - maybe they'll write about it one day), and they are nothing but closet Hindus who need to muster some courage and come out in the open.

#172
Roshan
URL
February 9, 2009
02:26 PM

Being proud of one's religion doesn't mean hatred towards others or people different from us. I'm a proud Indian and a Hindu, but I don't wear my religion on my sleeve and go around claiming to protect it.
I don't feel my religion or my culture needs to be protected that way. It's survived over the ages, assimilated foreign cultures and made it our own. Our culture has been enriched because of it. Holding it back from change is only destroying the culture which has accommodated all kinds of people and beliefs in itself!

I'm proud of my culture, of my Indianess. Only thing feel ashamed about is that there are some goons walking around claiming to represent my peace loving culture.

I did not imply that we did not have any contribution in the progress of the world. But, do we reject everything that's come from outside just because it isn't part of our historical culture? Imagine where our culture would have been if it had stopped accepting changes into it's fold. It wouldn't have survived for goons to go around 'protecting' it!

#173
Sumanth
February 9, 2009
03:19 PM

Roshan,

Now do not turn into an apologetic.

There are enough people in this country who like you, who genuinely believe that Indian culture did not contribute anything to any one.

This pisses people off.

Things just do not stop there. They twist the religious stories, scriptures and mythology to degrade India. When an Indian makes a mild criticism of anything negative in other countries or cultures, these anti-Indians pounce on that person calling him intolerant.

They paint Indian Goddesses nude and claim it is artistic freedom of expression. Then they put Ganesha on the shoes and Shiva on the back side of pant. Then, they claim this is our way of expressing "freedom".

Indian philosophy or religion may have survived for ages and tolerated all kinds of bullshit for ages. That does not give people anyone a right to degrade, defame India or indian culture, family or society.

No other country or culture hates itself as much as Indians are forced to hate, blame or feel ashamed of themselves.

Just now, you said, you are ashamed of what happened in Mangalore. Why?

Are Germans ashamed of themselves, because one guy ate another guy (after killing him) after advertising for cannibalism in Internet?

Are Germans ashamed of themselves, because they have such difficult procedures to construct a Hindu temple there?

If Indian Conservatives are going to be tolerant, what are they going to gain?

They will be insulted as poor, old fashioned, dirty, regressive, chauvinistic, fundamentalists and intolerant.

Young people drink, smoke, take drugs, have teen sex and parents have to just watch, just because of the argument that today everyone knows what is right or wrong.

Where is "self-policing happening"?

Are people drawing a line in anti-Indians, anti-family and anti-cultural behaviour?

------
Soon, more and more educated will turn anti-Indian and start saying,"their own ancestors are the biggest losers in the world and India is the world's shit pot".

Then, we all will discuss why India is a soft state and why we give nice signals to our fucking pathetic neighboring countries to come and screw us.

A country's identity can not be suppressed for 60 years. Enough of communist manipulation of history books to show that Indians are cowards. Enough of self hate.

#174
Sumanth
February 9, 2009
03:27 PM

Now, Madhu Poornima Kishwar questions, "Feminist Moral policing" in NDTV womenspeak.

She talks about double standards and forgetting of history.

#175
kerty
February 9, 2009
03:43 PM

Roshan

"I'm a proud Indian and a Hindu, but I don't wear my religion on my sleeve and go around claiming to protect it. "

"I'm proud of my culture, of my Indianess. Only thing feel ashamed about is that there are some goons walking around claiming to represent my peace loving culture."

Several things stand out in your post

- one should not defend or protect a culture even if one may be proud of this culture.
- One should feel ashamed of people who choose to defend or protect a culture that one claims to be proud of
- one should let this proud culture mutate and give in to other cultures without questioning it or debating it
- This proud culture should remain peaceful at any cost and not fight back to survive on the face of any cultural wars or attacks or subversion.

When you choose to desert a culture and not stand by it, than you end up letting others represent it by default. You can abrogate your duties to the culture, but you can not expect that others must do the same. You may not like to fight for a culture, but those who love it and value it more than their lives will press on. Perhaps they take aggressive stands precisely because those who claim to be proud of the culture are asleep like Kumbhkarna. Perhaps benefits of culture and civilities are sought to be withheld from people who are not willing to preserve the culture.

#176
Slime_id
February 9, 2009
04:37 PM

FBI woman , dare she come to India and face allegations. Will women led by Hillary cry hoarse?
Will FBI get away easily?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/FBI_woman_sexually_harassed_2611_accused/articleshow/4101192.cms

#177
kaffir
February 9, 2009
05:00 PM

Roshan, you may be conflating "peace loving" with "bending over backwards." There's a difference between the two. There's also a difference between being confident and being aggressive, which I have a feeling that you're conflating too.

#178
Kaiser_Soze
February 9, 2009
10:02 PM

Even an extremely liberal city like Amsterdam is now reconsidering its policy on drug Cafes and brothels. Contrary to expectations, liberalisation has attracted international drug and human traffickers like makkhis.


The Indian liberals are on a warfooting to create an Amsterdam like urban islands in India. Pubs are just the beginning.

Soon there will be pot dens, dildo shops in family neighbourhoods and hookers in high-heeled boots flagging cars down in Cannaught Place, Nuggambakkam, Cuffe Parade, Brigade Road, Dalhousie Square etc.


#179
Sumanth
February 10, 2009
04:45 AM

On Feb 4th, United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) declares: Family breakdown is a triumph for human rights

Article in DC:
==============
High Divorce Rates Indicate A Healthy Culture

http://desicritics.org/2007/05/31/000652.php

What the hell is going on?

What kind of intolerance is this against "Family"?

United Nations collects donations in Flights for charity, and it uses it to serve its pervert agendas (under instruction of Market Forces).

Cultures evolve. Does that mean such intolerance is to be shown towards what is existing? Why systems are societies are hacked without creating new structures?

Why divorce is promoted with zeal without getting the legal structures or courts in place?

The society is getting torn due to such mindless intolerance between both sides.


The new set of "disgusting" morals and intolerance is propagated through media by business establishments, who see an increase in their business. They are also using UN and other powerful positions to get this done.

"Repeat a lie 100 times, it become truth."

That is the strategy followed by these anti-nationals and their bed fellows.

Now, the masses can not compete with these agencies promoting their own agendas by pumping in money. So, the masses will get to violence or change the political leaders in elections.

=========
UN: Family Breaking is Victory of Human Rights.
=========

I though UN upholds democratic values. How many people in the world, believe in what UN is forcing on the world?

----------
The rot is deeper than just pubs and drugs.
----------

The dangerous thing is UNFPA controls many of Indian Govt policies and it conducts the "National Family Health Survey".

How the hell a fucking anti-family organisation is allowed to conduct "Family Health" survey?


You are regressive, if you question these international policies of World Economic Forum, IMF, World Bank and UN.

The morons in World Economic Program(WEP), have created a competition to discriminate men and have started ranking countries on the basis on, who discriminates the men most.

-------
WEP's Gender Index has no exit criterion and discrimination of men to empower women is an infinite process. They do not have a criterion to define when a country is "gender equal" so that it can be taken out of the competition.
-------

Now, our fucking media quotes such a childish Gender Index and misleads people.

Tomorrow, if someone beats up WEP people visiting India, we all we call it intolerance and beat our chest.

------------
Everyone has a right to shape the cultures and society.

The present system does not work like that. Only business establishments have the capacity to use media (funding ads) to direct the social change.

So, who dictates social change?

People or Business Establishments?

Which option is democratic?

The more the morons jump around the more earth will shake below their feet.

#180
Sumanth
February 10, 2009
04:56 AM

The spoiled brats are now getting into the trap.

They are campaigning to send "Pink Chaddis(under wear)" to Sri Ram Sena.

What they do not know is that:

Men's Rights activists will follow the same and send, "burnt bras" to Renuka Choudhury and the radical feminists.





#181
Sumanth
February 10, 2009
07:02 AM

Parents should rein in their children. In west, they do it, but in India, if someone does it, we cry foul.


http://www.nypost.com/seven/02082009/news/nationalnewsflaming_heirhead__poor_me_154058.htm

Heirhead rich-girl Courtenay Semel's lesbian romps, public beatdowns and flaming rows might have lifted her D-list celebrity status - but they've cost her A-list wealth.

"It's ruined a lot of friendships and relationships with my friends and my family, most important. I haven't been in contact with my family, and the only way they know what's going on with me is Page Six."

The party princess, who has been romantically linked to Lindsay Lohan and reality-TV star Tila Tequila, has been cut off by her former Yahoo! CEO daddy - and left so destitute she's been forced to sponge off her pals, she told The Post.

The last straw for Pops was his daughter's run-in with a Vegas security guard who barred her re-entry into a club last year. In a drunken stupor, she famously screamed, "Do you even know who I am, f- - -ing idiot? Google me, you dumb f- - -," before allegedly punching him in the face.

#182
Kerty
February 10, 2009
10:05 AM

Sumanth

That is in line with Gandhigiri. It is non-violent and still provocative and offensive enough to get the point across. You can extend similar gandhigiri to the pubs too, those pubs that are mainly patronized by the Renuka's 'pub bharo' army.

Have few pranksters visit those pubs as clients, and place few stinkers and itchers in the pubs that stink and itch all night long. We used to play these kind of pranks in the highschool.

#183
Roshan
URL
February 10, 2009
11:56 AM

Haha! Pink Chaddi being covered by BBC!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7880377.stm

Stupid liberal media, showing India in bad light, right Sumanth :)

#184
Aaman
URL
February 10, 2009
12:06 PM

Roshan, add to the bad light by an article of your own, winner gets a pink chaddi

#185
Sumanth
February 10, 2009
12:16 PM

We will be sending 500 Dirty Bras to Renuka Choudhury and the "Alternate Law Forum".

Roshan,

We are not bothered about any antics.

We are against the pseudo-liberals defaming, degrading India using lies and deceit.

Media can give publicity to "Pink Chaddi Campaign" as much as it wants. The dirty Bras will reach them as well.

On Monday, we have a press conference in Bangalore and on 14th Feb, we have the Dharna, at Gandhi Statue MG Road. We will expose the anti-Indian inhuman activities of Renuka Choudhury, UN and radical feminists.

#186
Aditi N
February 10, 2009
12:23 PM

#185 "500 Dirty Bras to Renuka Choudhury and the "Alternate Law Forum"

Dirty bras?! Like how dirty? How will you "dirty" them? Are you planning on wearing them and then maybe sweat a bit to dirty them up nicely? I'm mystified.

#187
anon
February 10, 2009
12:32 PM

Sumanth and co. are going to wear it first. No dooubt about that.

#188
Kaiser_Soze
February 10, 2009
12:34 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if Ram Sena returns the complement. Lungotas from the dirty laundry. Heh,heh,heh!

#189
kerty
February 10, 2009
12:37 PM

Roshan

"Consortium of Pub-going, Loose and Forward Women"?

Now loose women have a consortium headed by Nisha Susan!

Nisha Susan can't figure out if she is loose or forward, Hindu or xian, Indian or western. And by challenging and provoking the mandhood of Ramasena, by sending them pink stuff, does she seek to achieve what v-day crowd would dread the most and would like to avoid - people showing their menhood on them? That's like sending bengles to men and not expecting sharp reactions from men who would predictably try to prove they are not sissy boys.

Few thousand pink chaddies is hardly going to overwhelm Ramasena(it might burn them and send the burnt ones back to Renuka), though it probably might the local post office staff. What is newsworthy is that BBC made it a newsworthy and chose to spread the word. One can count on BBC, a friend in need.

#190
Aaman
URL
February 10, 2009
12:43 PM

Kerty, only you wouldn't get the deliberate sarcasm and provocation in the name

#191
Sumanth
February 10, 2009
12:55 PM

"dirty" bras cleaned by sprinkling of water containing a billion plus sperms.

That's what is an overwhelming response.

#192
Aaman
URL
February 10, 2009
01:07 PM

good, at least they'll get used

#193
Roshan
URL
February 10, 2009
01:29 PM

haha!
It's fun to provoke Sumanth. His comments are fun to read...no offense Sumanth :P

#194
commonsense
February 10, 2009
05:34 PM

man, DC is getting a bit too surreal!!

#195
Sumanth
February 11, 2009
01:39 AM

Where the hell are Renuka Choudhury and Girija Vyas?

Are they hiding now that Karnataka CM lashed at them?

Someone should send a Thong to Girija Vyas.

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