OPINION

What Israel Won't Tell You

December 29, 2008
Sarah Islam

Today’s edition of Haaretz says that Defense Minister Ehud Barak had instructed the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for the Gaza operation over six months ago, even as Israel was beginning to negotiate a ceasefire agreement with Hamas.

Ostensibly, while the ceasefire gave Hamas the opportunity to rally its troops it also gave the Israeli Army time to prepare for the Gaza offensive. Barak also ordered a comprehensive intelligence-gathering drive to map out Hamas' security infrastructure, along with that of other militant organizations operating in the Strip. This intelligence-gathering campaign helped to dig out information about permanent bases, weapon depots, training camps, and to identify the homes of senior officials.

The Haaretz newspaper also says that in its summary announcement for a cabinet meeting to decide on the Gaza attacks, the Prime Minister's Bureau devoted one line to the situation in Gaza. What actually went on at the cabinet meeting was a five-hour discussion about the operation in which ministers were briefed about the various blueprints and plans of action. Here is a short excerpt from the newspaper's article, "Disinformation, Secrecy and Lies":

“At the end of the discussion, the ministers unanimously voted in favor of the strike, leaving it for the prime minister, the defense minister and the foreign minister to work out the exact time.

While Barak was working out the final details with the officers responsible for the operation, Livni went to Cairo to inform Egypt's president, Hosni Mubarak, that Israel had decided to strike at Hamas.

In parallel, Israel continued to send out disinformation in announcing it would open the crossings to the Gaza Strip and that Olmert would decide whether to launch the strike following three more deliberations on Sunday - one day after the actual order to launch the operation was issued.

"Hamas evacuated all its headquarter personnel after the cabinet meeting on Wednesday," one defense official said, "but the organization sent its people back in when they heard that everything was put on hold until Sunday."

The final decision was made on Friday morning, when Barak met with Chief of Staff General Gabi Ashkenazi, the head of the Shin Bet Security Service Yuval Diskin and the head of the Military Intelligence Directorate, Amos Yadlin. Barak sat down with Olmert and Livni several hours later for a final meeting, in which the trio gave the air force its orders.

On Friday night and on Saturday morning, opposition leaders and prominent political figures were informed about the impending strike, including Likud chairman Benjamin Netanyahu, Yisrael Beuiteinu's Avigdor Liebermen, Haim Oron from Meretz and President Shimon Peres, along with Knesset Speaker Dalia Itzik.”


This account of the premeditation and stealth with which Israel has launched this, the first Gaza War, is truly abhorrent and should be condemned by the world community and the UN. Everyone was curious to see how Obama (the one who can do no wrong) would react. His office has gone on record to say that: Hamas is a terrorist Organization and that Obama sympathizes with Israel’s right to defend itself.”

Disappointed? Were you really so naive as to believe that the change of guard in the White House would really change the ground situation in the Middle East or elsewhere?

Sarah Islam is a freelance writer and blogger. She writes on politics, history and food. She has lived and worked in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal and Canada.
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What Israel Won't Tell You

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#1
Vinod Joseph
December 29, 2008
01:18 PM

Israel definitely prepared for its offensive. But if Hamas could fire 80 rockets a day after the cease fire ended, they too did some preparation of their own. Just as abduction of Gilad Schalit by Hamas on 25 June 2006 led to Israeli bombardment of Gaza a few days later as part of Operation Summer Rains, just as the abduction of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev by the Hizbollah on July 12, 2006 led to the Israel-Lebanon war of 2006, the launching of these rockets has led to disproportinate Israeli retaliation. Will Israel send in its ground forces? It might. If it does, Hamas will hope to hold its own, just as Hizbollah did in 2006. If it does, it will come out a winner. Is Hamas preparing for an Israeli offensive. You bet it is. Israel is not a saint, but let's not blame it for planning its actions months in advance. In that neighbourhood, everyone is a sinner. No one is entitled to cast the first stone.

#2
sarah islam
URL
December 29, 2008
01:35 PM

Dear Vinod,

Does that mean that we should be quiet? Israel's might is wildly disproportionate to the Palestinian offensive.

Yes Hamas has fired those rockets and will likely use more but Gaza is a virtual prison. I don't think any one can hope to barricade a nation like that and not expect them to retaliate. The cbsmonitor says: 'Nicolas Sarkozy sais that the provocations that led to this situation as well as the disproportionate use of force should be condemned."


Please see this:

http://puffthemagic-dragon.blogspot.com/2008/12/khalid-amayreh-from-palestine.html

This is a letter that I have received from a Palestinian who is in Palestine today. I think it is quite impossible for us to even imagine just what is going on in Gaza right now.

#3
Moonie
December 29, 2008
01:41 PM

Another interesting question which NO one in the neighborhood answers is WHY aren't the Palestinians not offered land for them to live apart from aid, arm, ammunition, support etc? Why is the whole Muslim and Arab world stand next to the Palestine swearing allegiance and support but not offer couple of square KMs of endless land in middle-east?

UAE is building land in ocean "The Palm".. why not help Palestine double the land in area so that the dispute is resolved and two can become nations and peacefully live next to each other?

#4
Moonie
December 29, 2008
01:50 PM

Also, my Q = WHY should Israel NOT bombard organization whose agenda is to kill them @ " 'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)"
and " There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)"
Can you TELL me this?? Why should anyone negotiate peace with such hate mongers?

#5
Slime_id
December 29, 2008
01:50 PM

#Sarah, please tell the same to our Paki brothers to stop making war preparations with India. This you and your Muslim brotherhood won't. AT THIS TIME YOU SIT SILENT, when we in India have enough proof of Pakis aiding terrorists ( read jehadis by Arab and Muslim folks). Stop the money, moral flow to these people from Saudi Arabia, Dubai etc.

The hamas gets what it deserves. So do the current Palestine population who elected Hamas.

So do the people of Pakistan get whom they elect.
This is Kaliyug. If you do evil, you suffer in this very life. I expect CS to write some lines on my Kaliyug statement.

Enough of this hypocritical view. Don't ask the west not to fight you, ask your own arab countries to fight against your own militant people. How long will you justify rockets. Better to die than making a fucked up rocket launcher. such people who make rockets and die suicide deaths are jokers of the highest order. do they think they can change this world order by violence.

My simple question to you is why is Israeel not attacking Jordan? Are they not Arabs? Palestine must learn to become Jordan and militant Hamas must be out of this equation.

#6
Moonie
December 29, 2008
02:00 PM

I agree to "slime_id"; I, as an Indian, am really sick of these "jihadi" organizations; Seriously THE Muslim world should reign them in! I am beginning to wonder IF we have over-estimated the importance of PEACE in Islam! Can the Muslim wake up and smell coffee that world is full of variety of people following variety of religion and they have to ACCEPT that reality!

#7
Moonie
December 29, 2008
02:18 PM

Also, I would like to know WHY the wounded civilians are not being evacuated from Egyptian border of Gaza? I believe whole of Gaza strip is like 25miles long!!! An ambulance could reach Egypt in less than hour!

#8
commonsense
December 29, 2008
02:26 PM

Slime-ID:

"I expect CS to write some lines on my Kaliyug statement."

Your slimy expectations are hereby unceremoniously dashed. A pox on all fundamentalists and hate mongers.

#9
commonsense
December 29, 2008
02:31 PM

Moonie:

""Why is the whole Muslim and Arab world stand next to the Palestine swearing allegiance and support but not offer couple of square KMs of endless land in middle-east?""

Primarily because despite the propaganda of "ummah" and a so-called united "muslim" and "arab" world that you have obviously swallowed, there is no such thing. These horrible incidents may inflame passions and people might demonstrate, but there is no such reality as a unified "muslim" or "arab" world. As usual, humans follow their own interests, puffed up rhetoric about "bhaichara" or "bahenchara" notwithstanding.

#10
commonsense
December 29, 2008
02:36 PM

Slime.ID:

""My simple question to you is why is Israeel not attacking Jordan? Are they not Arabs?""

I am sure you meant "simplistic" question, but perhaps did not know how to spell it. A simple not simplistic set of answers:

1. Because Israel does not illegaly occupy Jordanian lands, so there's no conflict between them.

2. Are they not Arabs? Yes, they are, but contrary to your stereotype and the stereotype that Islamic/Arab fundamentalists propogate, not all Arabs are necessarily brothers and sisters undivided by nations, class, different interests.

Khush? I doubt it!

#11
Moonie
December 29, 2008
02:37 PM

I guess common-sense you need to read a lot about politics spread by "Muslim World" = Where does all the money which funds these 'jihadi' organizations come from? @"but there is no such reality as a unified "muslim" or "arab" world.";

Just to re-iterate I am NOT against Islam or Muslims but this BLIND following of faith and issue is so "killing"!! I am appalled that educated ppl ACCEPT organizations like 'hamas'

#12
commonsense
December 29, 2008
02:39 PM

Moonie:

""Also, I would like to know WHY the wounded civilians are not being evacuated from Egyptian border of Gaza?"'

Because if you follow the news regularly, not only when a crisis inflames your testosterones, you might know that Egypt is:

1. an ally of Israel (the government of Egypt)
2. Egypt was probably tipped off about this by the Israeli foreign minister who visited Cairo recently. Them opening borders would undercut the request from their allies, the Israeli govt.

Khush? I doubt it!

#13
Moonie
December 29, 2008
02:42 PM

"illegaly occupy "?? Please readup = UN recognition of Israel as a nation! You have EXACTLY the same thinking as Hamas, just cannot recognize and accept Israel as a country! This is the ROOT cause of the issue.

#14
commonsense
December 29, 2008
02:44 PM

Moonie,

If the so-called Muslim/Arab world were already a monlothic, blood thirsty jihadi lot, why would there be any need to spend zillions of cash to recruit fundamentalists and to propagate crap, taht you correctly point out, is being funded by the Saudis and others? Use your commonsense. You too have it.

If there is a united "muslim world" or "ummah", why are about 25,000 people blowing each other up in Iraq every year? Use your commonsense. You have it!

Why would Egypt seal its borders to the its so-called Muslim brothers the fundamentalists Hamas? Use your commonsense! You too have it.

Why would even a fundamentalist organization such as Hamas exist, if all Muslims were the same, brothers in arms? Use your commonsense. You do have it. Use it or lose it.

Khush? I doubt it!

#15
Moonie
December 29, 2008
02:47 PM

Commonsense, I guess YOU are not following the news
http://africa.reuters.com/wire/news/usnLT640265.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g0lxqsuTRVxb3BhvI8lp7w_K5Skg
Egypt is actually blaming Hamas that they aren't letting the wounded out!!

#16
Moonie
December 29, 2008
02:55 PM

Whatever "commonsense" I guess you are the one who lacks it!!!
IF what you've written of fractured unity of Muslims is true, then WHY blame Israel? Should it keep quiet at the mess thrown at it? I agree that they have all the right to defend themselves!

Yes, its indeed sad @ loss of human lives and reckless violence! But then I do NOT sympathize with Palestinians. They CHOSE this violence, they will have bear the brunt !!

Actually Pakistan should REALLY thank their stars that India is NOT like Israel! Sadly again, its being looked as our weakness! Its high time we remove that thought from these terrorist!

#17
Moonie
December 29, 2008
03:00 PM

and why are YOU supporting this kind of terror organization whose agenda is to kill the Jews and non-Muslims??? How come you aren't writing an article which says "what Hamas won't tell you"??? Does that not make you a hate monger and fundamentalist?
commonsense eh???

#18
kaffir
December 29, 2008
03:13 PM

Moonie, she's likely one of those jihadi-loving feminists being discussed earlier in another post.

#19
Ruvy
URL
December 29, 2008
03:44 PM

Kaffir,

she's likely one of those jihadi-loving feminists being discussed earlier in another post.

I do not think so. Sarah has attempted to open a conversation elsewhere, where intemperateness may not necessarily be the rule. And given the opportunity to talk to my neighbors (erstwhile "enemies"), I'll take it.

#20
Slime_id
December 29, 2008
03:53 PM

CS bhai, i meant simple.

Israel-Jordan peace agreement which came into being in 1990s and in 1980s must be the basis for all peace agreements. There were militant attacks launched from Jordan as well. Perhaps you would know Israel gave up the right to West Bank after this agreement and thus paved the way for recognition to Palestine Authority.

The history says that Jordan defeated the militants and expelled them in 1971. The same must be done in case of Hamas.

Bhai/Behna simplistically, common enemies have no sense to be together. I don't make much sense, but militant Hamas can't exist forever if Israel exists. Also the other way round, Israeel won't be a Killing machine unless Hamas gives up militancy. It's what Jordan learnt have years until they finally expelled Fida yeen. I guess time for Palestine to expel Hamas militant elements.

#21
John K
December 29, 2008
04:14 PM

I don't see why people seem to be crying themselves hoarse about the Israeli government's decision to attack.

Hamas was itching for a fight and got one. Even Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas said that he asked Hamas to stop the rocket attacks but that they went ahead anyway.

And I find it funny that people whose hearts bleed for these organisations like Hamas conveniently forget that they (Hamas) purposely keep their artillery within civilian areas so that they will be difficult to hit.

Well, this time Israel said no more. Hamas will have to deal with the consequences. If the Palestinians had spent as much effort in building a nation as they have built bombs, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Also, this article's title is misleading. Israel may not have revealed that it had plans to attack Gaza if Hamas started its attacks again but it was only a matter of time before Hamas was up to its old tricks again. This was waiting to happen. You can't expect a sovereign nation to reveal its military plans (even contingent or planned ones) just because the enemy is quiet.

#22
Ravi Kulkarni
December 29, 2008
07:45 PM

Dear Ruvy,

I may be totally naive about the middle eastern affairs, but I feel Israel and Hamas will eventually talk to each other. Hamas probably holds to key to peace there, though currently they are the bad guys. There are a couple of reasons why I think so:

1. Hamas seems to do good grassroots work and they are less susceptible to corruption.

2. Hamas has been chosen by people to represent them.

Usually the people like Hamas have a better mandate to sue for peace than Fatah who it appears are corrupt and opportunists. If they do sign a peace agreement it is less likely to have a long lasting impact. In my opinion Israel will do well to take them seriously and negotiate for peace.

Regards,

Ravi

#23
Ruvy
URL
December 29, 2008
08:22 PM

Ravi, read the comment I'm posting at my own article. Remember what it says.

#24
commonsense
December 29, 2008
09:25 PM

Moonie:

""Commonsense, I guess YOU are not following the news Egypt is actually blaming Hamas that they aren't letting the wounded out!!""

this might be news to you, but almost everyone else knows that the Egyptian govt. is an ally of the Israeli government and both are against Hamas. What exactly is the new news that you wished to convey. As I said what is commonsense is news to you.

#25
commonsense
December 29, 2008
09:27 PM

Moonie:

""Does that not make you a hate monger and fundamentalist?
commonsense eh???""

a rhetorical question no doubt. stew on it!! canadian, eh??

#26
commonsense
December 29, 2008
09:43 PM

moonie,

while you are at it, check out the terms "occupation" and "settlers" in your own private dictionary.

#27
sarah islam
URL
December 30, 2008
12:05 AM

Dear Slimy_id:
You have asked me to ask my brothers and sisters in Islam to stop making war on India. You are assuming that my Muslim name is enough to make a representative of everyone of that faith. Thank you for that sweeping generalization, but I have to dash your hopes there because I am not a believer. Second, India is my country too so you would like me to become an ambassador to Pakistan, I will need special training (civil service exam et all) to do that, right? I'm too old to take that exam now, so that's another 'no' to your suggestion.

You say: "The hamas gets what it deserves. So do the current Palestine population who elected Hamas." Ok, so with that logic most countries need to be nuked right away.

Hypocritical view? I don't think so. The last time I checked India was a democratic country so I have the right to air my views here even if it is Kalyug according to your calculations.

Commonsense has already posted a very sane reply to your query about Israel and Jordan. Thanks, CS.

@Moonie your questions have been answered in detail by Khalid on my blog. Pls. check. The Hadith that you have quoted is not something that I or any of my so called tribe have heard of. If you say that they deserve to be killed because their book says so, then it will not just be Muslims but most people of all faiths who need to be brought to justice because of what their respective books say. Right?

As for donating land to Palestinians to help them out, I don't think any country is that magnanimous. Do you? By that logic, we should let the POK population be a part of us and let them get Indian passports.

@Kaffir, I am not a 'jihad loving feminist' I am an agnostic. Thank you very much. Thank you Ruvy, for your decent comment as usual.

@Moonie, Israel is a legal country but it has encroached certain land. Ok? Gaza is a literal prison. Please go on youtube and watch Occupation 101. Don't get emotional. Just remember, there are always to side to an argument. This is not paradise and we are not angels versus Satan here.
Thanks, Sarah




#28
commonsense
December 30, 2008
12:46 AM

sarah to slimy:

""You are assuming that my Muslim name is enough to make a representative of everyone of that faith. Thank you for that sweeping generalization"

a sweeping generalization that a lot of people make!

#29
sarah islam
URL
December 30, 2008
12:56 AM

@commonsense
:-) yes. sigh! that's the way the crumbles still...

#30
Moonie
December 30, 2008
02:51 AM

Well, I will go back to basics; Is the hate Muslims have for Jews ( and non-Muslims) justified? That is the cause of all the unrest! IF the lines of controls are frozen and people on both sides of fence mind their own business it would have been no issues! But if one side gives power to an organization which has sworn to wipe out the other side; how can the other side keep quiet?
Common Sense & Sarah ( if u r indeed 2 different people) = you still have not answered my question = How can you sympathize with people who support a terror organization Hamas who have on their agenda "jihad' to wipe out the Jews? I SURELY don't, exactly as I do NOT sympathize with people of Pakistan who are NOT doing anything about the terrorist in their midst. I would be very happy IF any military action is taken against the terrorist and any Pakistani civilians are hurt in that! I'd say the same = they wished it upon themselves.

#31
Moonie
December 30, 2008
03:05 AM

Well about Khalid's reply; it is all full of hate for Jews! What is the point even reading it! It starts only with refusing to accept Israel as a country which got its acknowledgment from UN way back in 1947!
Israel and Jews also probably do "hate" Muslims but they do NOT have it in their official "agenda" to wipe out people unlike these terror organizations like Hamas!!
Well, anyways I feel incredibly sad about the violence and how Israel is remorseless too! Even more sad is that I just can't find it logical to hold Israel in wrong for having done that.
Its hate everywhere !!!!!!!! No answers!

#32
sarah islam
URL
December 30, 2008
03:16 AM

Moonie,

Yes CS and I are two different people.

Now to your self righteous indignation:

Yes, Palestinians (not muslims but palestinian christians too) are angry with their Jewish neighbours because they feel that they have been displaced. It is not for us to measure the quantum of anger or generosity that Jewish or Muslims in that part of the world should have. You should know, you are a FREE INDIAN, would you like other countries to dictate to you what you should or should not feel?

Hamas has vowed to wipe out Jews? No, you are mistaking zionism for jews. And where do you get the idea that They want to wipe them out? Jihad is misused and I am completely against the use of a god, any god to justify any sort of violence. Please don't dig out half baked knowledge about theology and bandish it around. It's dangerous.This sort of partial knowledge causes wars. And I abhor war.

And where do you get the idea that I am supporting Hamas? I am giving you the view that was carried in a respectable Jewish newspaper called the Haaretz. Read it online at www.haaretz.com

All Palestinians are not Hamas just like all Indians are not Narendra Modi or Afzal Guru. Is that fair? You decide.

You say:
"I would be very happy IF any military action is taken against the terrorist and any Pakistani civilians are hurt in that! I'd say the same = they wished it upon themselves."

Really? Isn't that taking self righteousness too far? Put yoursleves in the shoes of people who take up weapons. Don't they also justify it just like that to themselves?

Oh and Moonie, Yes certain Jewish people DO want to cleanse the entire region of non jews too, please read up on the facts. All this indignation won't help if you haven't spent time reading up on it.

After the Kandhamal violence, I am sure there are some Christians who will also hate non christians in India. Does that mean that we should blow them up too, for not having the right 'nationalistic' sentiments?

Take a deep breath and think about this. thanks and peace!

#33
Moonie
December 30, 2008
03:19 AM

"Gaza is a literal prison."
Actually its quite amusing that you'd blame Israel for it?? IF Gaza is land locked by Israel and Egypt AND they depend on them for everything THEN isn't it logical that people in Gaza make peace with Israel AND Egypt???? I guess when one does NOT have an upper hand it makes no sense negotiating a win?!!! Shouldn't ALL conditions be acceptable? Even a layman can understand what his "foreign policy" should be !!
IF 'Hamas' is so bothered about its Palestine people WHY is it NOT letting go of the power and giving it to anyone who CAN make peace with Israel and Egypt? Do they need rocket scientist to figure out that they are NOT in demanding position?
I feel so sad for Palestine people! Likely they have been "used" by their own politicians and are suffering so much because of them! Isn't it incredibly sad that even UN cannot help them!

#34
Moonie
December 30, 2008
03:32 AM

"Put yoursleves in the shoes of people who take up weapons. Don't they also justify it just like that to themselves? "
WOW putting this argument, I guess you want to take away any country's right to defend itself!! As an Indian I want to ensure that my people are NOT harmed! and NO the "Terrorist" just cannot be compared with a country defending itself. Only people who cannot think logically can think up this kind of an argument!!!

#35
Moonie
December 30, 2008
03:34 AM

NO more posts from me :) now; I think I understand now, the thought process.

#36
kaffir
December 30, 2008
11:00 AM

After the Kandhamal violence, I am sure there are some Christians who will also hate non christians in India. Does that mean that we should blow them up too, for not having the right 'nationalistic' sentiments?

Oh, OK. Now your thought process becomes clear. It's a case of "you slap me, and if I slap you back, then you are justified in hating me and I have been the one who showed intolerance." Never mind that what some of the Christian missionaries do is downright despicable. But hey, what they do is all fine and justified and needs no criticism because of "teh evil caste system."

Bat-shit crazy logic!!

#37
commonsense
December 30, 2008
11:59 AM

Moonie:

""NO more posts from me :) now; I think I understand now, the thought process.""

This makes eminent sense. Your time would be better spent reading up the history and current aspects of the issue, preferably written by some Israeli scholars. If that is too much, you might want to read some comments by Smallsquirrel on the thread by Ruvy or Temporal. She is an American jew for your information. If after all that you want to reduce it all to a childish Muslims hate Jews (yes some do!) and Jews hate Muslims (yes some do!), you might consider understanding "your thought process".

Do you have a clue about what exactly "illegal occupation", "settlement", "colonization", "dispssession"" mean? If not, you can start by reading Smallsquirrel's comments on the other thread. And yes, let me tell you, she's a Jew.

Actually, it's best if you stick to doing whatever it is you do, be it coloring pictures of daisies, or raising hamsters, until you have the basics about what's being discussed. And then of course (not for me to grant you that right), you can disagree and even fulminate, froth and foam, but at least that would be froth and foam of some substance, not completely vacuuous, silly "Muslim vs. Jews", "good guys vs. bad guys", "cops vs. robbers", kind of assinine childish imaginations.

#38
commonsense
December 30, 2008
12:05 PM

Special individualized service for Moonie: (not that you must agree with what SS says, but just to indicate that this cannot be reduced simply to a "Muslim vs. Jews" issue, much as many Muslims and Jews might want to make it out in that manner. Yes, SS is Jewish):

Smallsquirrel:

""No Ruvy, I know what I mean. I am very clear about what I mean. I think settlement is wrong and in direct opposition to any kind of peace in the middle east. I do remember that you are a settler. And I do not know what it is like to be an Israeli, this is also true. But I think settlement is equal to provocation. That has been my stance, and remains my stance, even with my own relatives. So if I do not feel badly for them, why shall I feel badly for you? Yes they were kicked out of a home they bought, OK. IT WAS ON LAND THEY NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON IN THE FIRST PLACE.

You know what gets my goat? Jews have been kicked around, persecuted, annihilated, tortured, blamed, scrutinized, punished, maligned, and the list goes on. But some of us seemed to forget all too quickly what that felt like, and in the rush to never fall victim again did what most abuse victims sadly seem to do and made someone else the victim instead. How is that acceptable? We forgot what it was like to be homeless so we took someone else's home? We forgot what it was like to be hungry so we took someone else's food? We forgot what it was like to lose our mothers fathers and children and instead started taking others' families.

Oh yes, I believe that Israel has a right to exist. And defend itself. But really, how is settlement getting you anywhere except more at odds with peace? you can call me self-righteous if you want to, I don't give a shit. innocent people on both sides are being murdered and all you seem to care about is calling names.""


#39
commonsense
December 30, 2008
12:11 PM

Moonie:

""Actually its quite amusing that you'd blame Israel for it?? IF Gaza is land locked by Israel and Egypt AND they depend on them for everything THEN isn't it logical that people in Gaza make peace with Israel AND Egypt????""

Actually it is quite amusing that you insist on displaying your ignorance publicly. If you even had a clue about what you are talking about, you might have some right to be amused. Read, it's good for you.

Or go shopping to amuse yourself. Boxing day sales on. Everybody is "saving" due to big sales. Jesus "saves", so can you!

#40
commonsense
December 30, 2008
12:13 PM

""All countries are run by old people. The old men talk and start wars, while the young men fight and die in the wars.""

#41
commonsense
December 30, 2008
02:10 PM

Moonie:

""WHY aren't the Palestinians not offered land for them to live apart from aid, arm, ammunition, support etc? Why is the whole Muslim and Arab world stand next to the Palestine swearing allegiance and support but not offer couple of square KMs of endless land in middle-east?""

Yes, a Nobel Prize for Peace for Moonie for this brilliant solution!

Just as I expect the Prize for Economics for THIS brilliant solution:

"Economic/Financial Crisis? Why can't the banks just give out ATM cards to everyone so they can withdraw money at will. Poverty would be history, the financial crisis solved just by pieces of plastic.""

Bravo!!

Moonie, I suggest you finish coloring those picture books first, and then open the presents that Santa got for you, at great personal risk of getting his fat ass stuck in the chimney.

#42
BangaloreGuy
URL
December 31, 2008
12:40 AM

Israel prepared well for the war, apparently. Congratulations to them.

Folks over at New Delhi should learn from this. And as for the headline, only an idiot (cue: Raisina Hill, New Delhi) would tell you about such preparation.

#43
Moonie
December 31, 2008
12:52 AM

CommonSense, Thanks for so much limelight on me! :-) I am highly flattered but I have nothing more to say to you at all. Sometimes the problems and solutions are indeed quite straight forward and staring in the face but people can't accept them due to their egos.
About Boxing day sales and gifts from Santa, I am from part of world where there isn't something as 'boxing day' and Santa also doesn't visit my home.
Yes, I will go back to my "coloring book" and YOU go back to being mr/ms know it all and other are stupid mindframe!!

#44
Moonie
December 31, 2008
12:56 AM

To the moderators/administrators = I thought "Personal attacks are not allowed." ????? A certain person with 'commonsense' hhhhhhmmm seems to be stepping out of line

#45
commonsense
December 31, 2008
01:05 AM

moonie,

calm down. as the non-official court jester, i take some chances. as i have made it clear, the editors are more than free to delete anything anyone writes and they don't need my permission or anyone's prompting to do so.

and yes, you can begin with the wikipedia, after you finish coloring those picture books, before you take on serious books on the topic of the creation of israel.

#46
commonsense
December 31, 2008
01:08 AM

Kaffir:

"Bat-shit crazy logic!!"

always better than pure bat-shit, sans logic. (hint: Moonie)

#47
sarah islam
URL
December 31, 2008
01:08 AM


Moonie

Thank you for your comments on my article. I think we all became a little hot under the collar by the points raised in that piece. I have tried answering everyone's questions calmly and rationally and it is not for me to bulldoze anyone into seeing my POV. That would be silly as this is supposed to be an open forum.

Instead of trying to blame each other or Hamas or the state of Israel I think we should calm down and see what can be done about this situation.

This piece was not meant to target any one it is only an opinion. I think Ruvy will testify to that. If you dont agree that is your prerogative. Moonie your comments have been published on my blog and I respect your view and hope that we can thrash it out without anger. You are welcome to write to me and I will be personally very happy to respond. You know my email (you will find it on my blog). Peace and have a good day.

Kaffir, what evil have the christian missionaries done? pls. enlighten me.

#48
commonsense
December 31, 2008
01:11 AM

Moonie:

"NO more posts from me :) now; I think I understand now, the thought process."

As they say my friend, never say never, unless you really mean it.

#49
commonsense
December 31, 2008
01:21 AM

Moonie:

""CommonSense, Thanks for so much limelight on me! :-) I am highly flattered but I have nothing more to say to you at all.""

Don't mention it my friend. As a court jester and seriously into tomfoolery (oxymoron alert), flattering others is part of my job description. The fact that you have nothing to say to me is mostly because you have no clue what you are talking about on this topic, and nothing to do wih the faux dignity you wish to claim. In a democracy, anybody can say anything they want, and that's just fine with me. But the should not be too surprised when their (or my) opinions experience a push-back.

#50
Moonie
December 31, 2008
01:40 AM

"Personal attacks are not allowed. Please read our comment policy." <<<< Only for show???

#51
commonsense
December 31, 2008
01:47 AM

Moonie:

"Personal attacks are not allowed. Please read our comment policy." <<<< Only for show???"

Depends on what you have for show. At the moment, your ignorance about the issues you comment on constitute personal attacks on commonsense (no not me personally!). But, my comments might still be deleted by the editors, which is just fine, since that is their job.

#52
Moonie
December 31, 2008
01:54 AM

MY ignorance about the issues??? Yes if I don't comment on 100 or 1000 or 2000 year old history; you think its ignorance?? Amazing common sense!
I would REALLY recommend people to wake up smell coffee and open their eyes to ground realities.
settlers, occupation all that crap is of NO meaning when one is getting bombed left right and center AND one has no means! even the existence is on AID by international community!

#53
commonsense
December 31, 2008
01:58 AM

Moonie:

""MY ignorance about the issues??? Yes if I don't comment on 100 or 1000 or 2000 year old history; you think its ignorance??""

You don't even know it when you display your ignorance about when Israel was created. 100 years ago? 100 years ago? 200 years ago? Not even close! But then you revel in your ignorance as bliss. Baba Bliss you must be.

#54
Moonie
December 31, 2008
01:59 AM

bah why do I even bother!! Its not that they really want to do anything; like "commonsense" said these ppl are only 'court jesters' amusing others and themselves!

#55
sarah islam
URL
December 31, 2008
02:00 AM

Moonie

"settlers, occupation all that crap is of NO meaning when one is getting bombed left right and center AND one has no means! even the existence is on AID by international community!"

Doesn't that just corroborate what my point is? That the Palestinians need help?

Are you angry because you perceive Hamas to be a terrorist organization (which it can be) or is it a Muslim issue for you? Because you think that all Muslims just hate Jews and want to see them annihilated?

If you can clarify it would be easier.

#56
kerty
December 31, 2008
02:07 AM

moonie

The way things are framed by both sides, it has become a zero-sum game - one side must lose in order for other side to win. I do not think peace can ever prevail under such a zero-sum framework.

In absence of any other viable solution for forseeable future, it is high time for all Islamic countries to do something out of the box - take the Palestinians and settle them in their own countries. That would be humanitarian thing to do, since they care so much about plight of Palestinians, they would be natural patrons for the welfare of Palestinians. Those who like to live in peace under Israel, they would live in Israel. And those who do not want to live in Israel should be given option to settle in other Islamic countries.

#57
commonsense
December 31, 2008
02:10 AM

Moonie:

"settlers, occupation all that crap is of NO meaning when one is getting bombed left right and center AND one has no means!"

not at all! settlers, illegal occupation etc. etc. are very much part and parcel of the tangled, horrendous equation. if you ignore them, you will be simply skimming on the surface and making simplistic demands such as (to paraphrase), "why can't them arabs/muslims simply donate some land to the palestinians and solve the problem"

moonie:
"like "commonsense" said these ppl are only 'court jesters' amusing others and themselves!"

on the contrary, there is no reason why, while discussing serious issues, one should take oneself too seriously.

moonie:

"bah why do I even bother!! Its not that they really want to do anything;"

I may be wrong (yes, I'm not a prophet, hence not infallible), but none of us can DO ANYTHING except express our opinions. If you are bucking this trend by DOING something, do enlighten us about it. We are all ears (and asses and elbows too!)

#58
sarah islam
URL
December 31, 2008
02:11 AM

Kerty

No it is not a viable solution that "those who do not want to live in Israel should be given option to settle in other Islamic countries. "

Pakistanis wanted Pakistan and they got it. The Palestinians do not want to settle anywhere else because they do not want to be Jordanian, or Iranian or Saudi. That's the difference.

Please understand this.

#59
commonsense
December 31, 2008
02:19 AM

Sarah to Kerty:

"Please understand this."

CS takes a deeeeeep breath. For Kerty to understand anything except his own views...a deeeep breath....

#60
commonsense
December 31, 2008
02:23 AM

Kerty:

"it is high time for all Islamic countries to do something out of the box - take the Palestinians and settle them in their own countries."

yah!! different day, same shit about all muslims being clones of each other.

#61
sarah islam
URL
December 31, 2008
02:25 AM

CS:
:-)

#62
kerty
December 31, 2008
03:03 AM

Sarah

"The Palestinians do not want to settle anywhere else because they do not want to be Jordanian, or Iranian or Saudi. That's the difference."

Are you saying that Jordan, Iran, Saudi etc are made of monolithic ethnicities, that there are no other ethnicities living in these countries? Why can't Palestinians live as Palestinians in other Islamic countries? Since some of these countries are making the biggest noise about plight of Palestinians, the onus should be upon them to accommodate the Palestinians. And Palestinians have a choice - they can keep fighting a bloody Jehad to destroy Israel in order to reclaim Palestine, or live in peace with their Moslem brothers in other Islamic countries. They can keep on suffering and keep on fighting even when they have no power to win this battle - therefore how long they want to keep depending on mercies and handouts of international communities? World is getting tired of perennial cry babies. Its about time they make responsible choices, if they are really for peace and removing suffering.

#63
sarah islam
URL
December 31, 2008
03:25 AM

kerty

The Jews themsleves are not a monolithic ethnic group.

In order to create a group culture, any common culture, not just "ethnic" ones, space is a prerequisite. Only a community can create a culture and only a culture provides the shared identity underlying community. In traditional terms, local cultures were known as ethnic cultures.

So Saudi Culture would be different as cheese from chalk, say from the culture prevalent in the West Bank.

The moment you say that they should be able to live peacefully in 'other muslim countries' are you saying that the Arab Muslims should be ethnically cleansed from Palestine?

By that logic, what the Hutu militia did to the Tutsis would suddenly look like the right thing to do.

Think before you answer.

You say "they have no power to win this battle". That's what the british told us when we started fighting the war of independence. Forgotten that already?

#64
kerty
December 31, 2008
06:22 AM

Sarah

"You say "they have no power to win this battle". That's what the british told us when we started fighting the war of independence. Forgotten that already?"

Did you win that war of Independence? Can you win the war of independence? Do you have the power to win such a war? What is the end game of this war of independence - anhilation of Israel? How can you expect peace or mercy from Israel when your war and victory means only one thing - removing the Israel? How can you fault Israel for responding to it as a war on Israel?

"The moment you say that they should be able to live peacefully in 'other muslim countries' are you saying that the Arab Muslims should be ethnically cleansed from Palestine? By that logic, what the Hutu militia did to the Tutsis would suddenly look like the right thing to do."

If the goal of those Arab moslems is to wage war on Israel - how can they be not treated as enemy combatants. Why do you expect them to be treated as peaceful civilians? Those arab moslems have two peaceful options - live peacefully in israel or go live peacefully in other Islamic countries. They get to as arab moslems. Why would that be ethnic cleansing? It is for Palestinians to choose peaceful options. When they choose war over peace, anhilation of Israel over peaceful co-existance, than how can they expect peaceful or civil treatment from Israel? You can't have it both ways. You pursue war, than war you get.

"The Jews themsleves are not a monolithic ethnic group."

Frankly, those non-monolithic jews have no problem living peacefully with each other or living peacefully in Israel.

"In order to create a group culture, any common culture, not just "ethnic" ones, space is a prerequisite. Only a community can create a culture and only a culture provides the shared identity underlying community. In traditional terms, local cultures were known as ethnic cultures."

So what kind of cultural space moslems give to non-moslems in their countries? Do you get similar ethnic space in USA or Europe - where large number of Arab nationalities happen to live. Than what is the problem for Palestinians living without cultural space? And if Arab countries are so concerned about lack of cultural space for Palestinians, than what stops those Arab countries from providing such space within their nation-states? If Jews can live for 1000s of years without having their own cultural space, so can Palestinians. At least, Palestinians have so many friendly Islamic nations who they can turn to who can accommodate them and help them carry on their ethnic legacy. So let Islamic brotherhood take care of Palestinians who choose not to live with Israel.

#65
kaffir
December 31, 2008
10:00 AM

The Palestinians do not want to settle anywhere else because they do not want to be Jordanian, or Iranian or Saudi. That's the difference.
-
Hmmm..do I stop being an Indian the moment I step out of India? Does my Indian cultural identity stop breathing if I'm living outside of India?

Or are you saying that Jordan, Iran and Saudi Arabia are hostile to any expression of Palestinian culture within their borders?

#66
commonsense
December 31, 2008
11:06 AM

Kerty:

""World is getting tired of perennial cry babies."'

oh my! from pretend thekedaari of "the Hindus", via Hindutva to which almost all Hindus are allergic to and with good reason, to thekedaari of the world!!! Great going Prophet Kerty!! What next???

#67
commonsense
December 31, 2008
11:11 AM

Kaffir:

""Hmmm..do I stop being an Indian the moment I step out of India? Does my Indian cultural identity stop breathing if I'm living outside of India?""

Not at all. On the contrary, some (kerty for example) become more Indian than Indian once they step out of India.

The difference, which perhaps you are deliberately ignoring, is that you and Kerty and I are free to go back to India anytime we want, for visits or permanently. Nobody has taken over India and told us that all of us can pretty much go to Nepal due to the majority Hindus there.

(I am sure you can get this commonsensical point, but you are arguing just for the heck of it, but that's fine, as, being the DC court jester, I enjoy it :)

From another perspective: there are Arabs and there are Muslims, and there are Arabs and there are Muslims, even though they may to you look like no different than indistinguishable part of the "ummah". Just as the fundmentalist jihadis wish to claim the same. No, not Uma Thurman

#68
commonsense
December 31, 2008
11:16 AM

Kerty:

""Frankly, those non-monolithic jews have no problem living peacefully with each other or living peacefully in Israel.""

Frankly, Kanane worshipper Ruvy will tell us quite a different story! But diversionary tactics!!

Kerty:
""At least, Palestinians have so many friendly Islamic nations who they can turn to who can accommodate them and help them carry on their ethnic legacy.""

At least Hindutvadis such as Kerty can always migrate to Nepal, the Hindu majority country. Oh wait no, it is now ruled by the Maoists! The thekedaari of the likes of Kerty does not seem to be working. No wonder he runs a pub and motels in the burbs of Chicago while having wet dreams of Hindutva supremacy.

#69
Ruvy
URL
December 31, 2008
01:15 PM

Sarah writes, "The Jews themselves are not a monolithic ethnic group."

Kerty answers, Frankly, those non-monolithic Jews have no problem living peacefully with each other or living peacefully in Israel.

In this particular instance, neither of you have this right.

First of all, Jews are part of a larger group, the Children of Israel, that will with time emerge as such the true nation to inherit this country - all of it. But, dealing with us Jews alone, we are a nationality that is faith based. The Roman savages and their Byzantine successors destroyed the instruments of that nationality 2,000 years ago and engaged in a genocidal campaign to kill us off and drive us from our land that lasted until the Moslems drove them out of it 600 years later. The chief work of the Jewish scholars who lived after the destruction of the Judean State was the Talmud - a Standard Procedures Manual to help Jews survive what has been a long and bitter Exile. What is known as Judaism was the product of the Talmud, and emerged to keep that nationality alive.

Zionism was a secular expression of that national impulse, and its child is the State of Israel. And the State has been successful to a degree in ending the Exile. But there is a deeply divided vision as to where this nation will go, a kulturkampf that the government's vilification of Jewish residents in Judea and Samaria (so-called settlers) is only a small part of.

Frankly, Kahane worshiper Ruvy will tell us quite a different story!

I am a Jew and a Child of Israel. I bow to no man and worship no man.

But Rav Kahane, z"l, hy"d, was a teacher and a hero. He had the guts to do what most other Jews do not have the guts to do - TELL THE TRUTH. And the truth is painful.

But he lived in his time, and a number of the solutions he proposed were children of that time: expelling all Arabs from the Land of Israel was one of those proposals.

Sarah has been kind enough, at her own blog, to provide the opportunity for a dialogue between me and an Arab journalist who lives about 15 miles south of me in Dura, right near Bet-El. There I have attempted to lay out my vision of what peace could look like. Those of you who wish can visit that blog and read those ideas. They are missing a few commas here and there, but they are fundamentally sound and provide the opportunity to end the existence of all of the refugee camps, and allow an expression of Arab nationality within the bounds of Mandate Palestine. You can also read my answer to the Arab journalist in his piece that is above mine.

I think settlement is wrong and in direct opposition to any kind of peace in the middle east. I do remember that you are a settler. And I do not know what it is like to be an Israeli, this is also true. But I think settlement is equal to provocation.

Smallsquirrel indeed does not know what it is to be an Israeli, and has stated that she will never know. What she does not comprehend is that the Arabs under the influence of the Moslem Brotherhood view all Jews in this country as "settlers" with no right to live here, and no right even to die here. This includes the arrogant scum in the secular elite who live in fancy homes of Tel Aviv and Rana'ana as well as the self-hating Jews who teach at Ben-Gurion University, the Hebrew University, and Haifa University. This includes the rich executives in Israel who sniff contemptuously that "settlers" are a cancer upon the nation that needs to be excised. All of the above-mentioned craven hypocrites are a provocation to the Arabs in this land. And the Jews who refuse to observe the Sabbath or keep kashrut are the greatest provocation of all. They are specifically condemned in the Qur'an as the relatives of pigs and monkeys.

Smallsquirrel's inability and refusal to understand, much less accept these realities, makes her as much a hypocrite as all the scum I mentioned in the paragraph above. That hurts to say because she is a decent, intelligent woman who is kind, usually understanding and has much to contribute to society.

You see, Kerty, in this particular assertion about how all Jews get along, you are mistaken.

#70
slime_id
December 31, 2008
01:25 PM

Sarrahji,

My hopes are not dashed, I believe in the destruction of Hamas in year 2009! If we can't defeat the terrorist in pakistan, we must celebrate every militant killed elsewhere.

God Bless democracy!

All Palestinians are not Hamas just like all Indians are not Narendra Modi or Afzal Guru. Is that fair? You decide.

We have elected Narendra Modi many times democratically. Yes definitely all Indians are not Narendra Modi. I wish people like Narendra Modi exist to cause immense excitement to the terrorist sympathizers (if you are one such) . Blame the Babri Masjid on Modi, Blame Hindutva on Modi. This is same way Muslims rally, blame modi, blame israel, blame the jew.

when will you blame yourselves? Sarah, kindly blame Hamas as they are they are opposing Israel on a religious identity and you are supporting them on the same identity. I dont see your anguish , Narendra Modi equated to Afzal guru. Sometimes I wonder if Sarah is a Paki or a terrorized Indian Muslim?



#71
kaffir
December 31, 2008
01:58 PM

CS # 67, and my response was in the context of Sarah's comment - which perhaps you deliberately ignored?

If Hamas really wants a peaceful two-state solution, I'd think that "destruction of Israel" is probably not the best way to go about it - that's a no-brainer. I wonder how Sarah Islam missed that from her astute analysis.

If they have money and resources to get rockets/guns/arms, then they can also get food and other amenities if they really have the interests of Palestinian civilians in their hearts. Let Hamas practice Gandhi-ji's successful ideas of peaceful resistance and non-cooperation. Hey, it won us freedom, it can work for oppressed Palestinians too.

"From another perspective: there are Arabs and there are Muslims, and there are Arabs and there are Muslims, even though they may to you look like no different than indistinguishable part of the "ummah"."

There you go again, mischaracterising what I wrote (and even after I'd clarified) about ummah, just to score a point in your twisted mind. And what exactly are you saying: that different Arab cultures and different Muslim sects cannot peacefully co-exist within the same country??? In that case, you seem to have a very low opinion of them. So what if there are Arabs and there are Arabs? Are you implying that they are incompatible and inimical when it comes to living together? Are there no Arab organizations or groups that are based on the idea of Arab unity? (hint: do some research on economic groups) Just think of it in terms of "South Asia" - now that'll make it easier for you to understand the concept. :-)

And you have the gumption to criticize kerty when you act no differently than he does. You both are the yin-yang who feed off of each other, cut from the same cloth. Spare me please, of your bombastic pompousness.

#72
kaffir
December 31, 2008
02:07 PM

CS, so when it comes to India, Pakistan, B'desh, you'd like us to forget our differences and unite in some utopian South Asia; but when it comes to Arabian countries, instead of promoting unity, you want to highlight their differences by your "there are Arabs and there are Muslims, and there are Arabs and there are Muslims".

So depending on which side you're on, you'd either focus on differences, or talk of unity - whichever approach serves your purpose; yet at the same time, talk of some vague universal humanism. Nice work and that's quite a pretzel logic, I must say!! Need some help getting untied from your self-tied knots, my friend? :-)

#73
commonsense
December 31, 2008
06:06 PM

Ruvy:

"But Rav Kahane, z"l, hy"d, was a teacher and a hero. He had the guts to do what most other Jews do not have the guts to do - TELL THE TRUTH. And the truth is painful.""

Indeed the truth is painful. The truth that even in Israel his racist (ex)Kach party has been banned. I am sure it is painful for you. But then again, two years later, we need not have this useless discussion every few months or so. But I believe that humans are not born as extremists. They become extremists and although it a long shot, some of them can "unbecome" their acquired condition. Just another piece of commonsense.

Wishing you and your family a happy new year!



#74
commonsense
December 31, 2008
06:09 PM

Sarah to Kerty:

""Think before you answer.""

Think!!? A tall order, Sarah! Thekedaars get their thinking orders from their superiors, hence the prefabricated responses, as you can well see.

#75
commonsense
December 31, 2008
06:13 PM

Ruvy:

"You see, Kerty, in this particular assertion about how all Jews get along, you are mistaken."

I disagree! Prophets cannot ever be wrong or mistaken. So, both of your are obviously telling THE TRUTH !!!! (imagine font size 48).

#76
commonsense
December 31, 2008
06:20 PM

Kaffir:

"CS # 67, and my response was in the context of Sarah's comment - which perhaps you deliberately ignored?"

Yaar calm down, have a charminar. Blogs encourage attention deficit disorder, so the issue of "deliberately" ignoring your the logic of the thread to uth-taa hi naheen. I will say this: I usually (except under extreme situations), I do not twist words, deliberately mis-represent others's views. Partly because I am a wide spectrum guy ie. hip deep into diversity of viewpoints, but my wide spectrum has limits, as do all spectra. Kerty, Ruvy and their ilk are not on my spectrum. But then, why do I have to misinterpret their views? They are such sitting targets due to their extremism, their prefabricated response to every issue, and above all, their self-appointed thekedaari of "hindus" and "jews" respectively.

In other words, I did not "deliberately" ignore your earlier post just to make a point. Sincerely, take it for what it's worth! (It could be a trick to get you on my side before I lash out again, but I don't think so)

#77
commonsense
December 31, 2008
06:28 PM

Kaffir:

""Need some help getting untied from your self-tied knots, my friend? :-)""

Yaar Kaffir, unlike Kerty who, if in power, would restrict sex only to the serious and urgent task of manufacturing babies, preferably babies who can be indoctrinated into Hindutva, I not only have nothing against bondage and unbondage both of which can be utterly pleasurable if engaged in by loving, respectful and trustworty partners. But there is a time and a place for it. Cybperspace is certainly not the place, and this is not the time for it. But thanks for the offer. Will keep it in mind when the fancy strikes me. However, can you repress your urge to make such advances in public? All of blogistan is watching and Kerty for sure is probably (notice the clever juxtapostion of "sure" and "probably" frm quantum physics) puking uncontrollably at the thought of impending, as he calls it "sexual anarchy".

But we digress, and I untintionally hijack Sarah's thread! Mea culpa, yet again!!

#78
commonsense
December 31, 2008
06:47 PM

Kaffir:

"CS, so when it comes to India, Pakistan, B'desh, you'd like us to forget our differences and unite in some utopian South Asia; but when it comes to Arabian countries, instead of promoting unity, you want to highlight their differences by your "there are Arabs and there are Muslims, and there are Arabs and there are Muslims"."

Good point, as long as we skim the surface. The tragic, horrendous and entirely avoidable partition involve henious violence, transfer of population, willing, forced and ideologically driven. But it did not lead to complete dispossession of any people (save the hapless non-Bengalis who are still trapped in Bangladesh, and are neither here and there. This is not what one can say about the Palestinians. And yes, not all Palestinians are Muslims, despite Kerty's predictable stereotype. Indeed, the most uncompromising (the type who have delusions of getting rid of Israel)have been "Christians" (ie. secular, hence in quotes) such as George Habash etc. So, there is a difference.

Kaffir:

""Need some help getting untied from your self-tied knots, my friend? :-)""

Thanks, but no thanks! The raw pleasure of good ole self-service is sometimes seriously (mis)underestimated. To re-aquaint yourself with it (don't spill the beans on this one to the sex-ayatollah Kerty please!) you may want to read:

Thomas Lacquer's _Solitary Sex: A Cultural History of Masturbation_

amazon.com link here:

http://www.amazon.com/Solitary-Sex-Cultural-History-Masturbation/dp/1890951323

Unless, like Kerty, you happen to be against hair growing on your palms.




#79
commonsense
December 31, 2008
08:08 PM

Kaffir:

""Need some help getting untied from your self-tied knots, my friend? :-)""

TAKE #3

Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather have Kerty do it for me.

#80
commonsense
December 31, 2008
08:32 PM

Kaffir:

""And you have the gumption to criticize kerty when you act no differently than he does. You both are the yin-yang who feed off of each other, cut from the same cloth. Spare me please, of your bombastic pompousness.""

Yaar, this even below the below the belt zone. Me kerty??? You have traumatized me for life. Thanks!

(BTW, typical attention deficit disorder mode, i shot off a response without reading your whole post)

But me not kerty, get it? No way!!! Please don't do this to me!!

#81
commonsense
January 1, 2009
11:15 AM

Sarah,

I do believe in not dismissing a very wide spectrum of views. But there are views that are decidedly way off my spectrum of commonsensical limits. Our friend Ruvy's views belong to that wavelength, although this may not be immediately apparent to newcomers on DC. A straightforward example from what Ruvy posted just last night, will suffice. In response to my comment:

Commonsense:

""...Ruvy's bizarre belief that religious texts .... should settle secular disputes about land, territory etc."

Ruvy:
""The Grant in the Torah of the Land of Israel to the Children of Israel, and its corresponding verses in the Qur'an suffice for me. But for those idiots with a blinkered view of the world wise secular scholars, like commonsense, and for those who do not accept the validity of religious texts, there is another place to go - the law of the jungle - which is really what international law is, dressed up in a suit, tie and watch farb.""

Go figure! I was quite intrigued when you noted earlier how reasonable Ruvy had been and actually got him into a dialogue with a friend on your blog. Not clear what kind of dialogue one can have with a person who is committed to the view that the Torah granted him a piece of real estate!

#82
Ruvy
URL
January 1, 2009
04:28 PM

Sarah,

What is also apparent is that "commonsense" likes to use snippets out of place. As we shall see momentarily.

Let's set for the full example for you to see and understand clearly what "commomsense", in his comment, would seek to conceal won't tell you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ruvy's bizarre belief that religious texts .... should settle secular disputes about land, territory etc.

The Grant in the Torah of the Land of Israel to the Children of Israel, and its corresponding verses in the Qur'an suffice for me. But for those idiots with a blinkered view of the world wise secular scholars, like commonsense, and for those who do not accept the validity of religious texts, there is another place to go - the law of the jungle - which is really what international law is, dressed up in a suit, tie and watch farb.

Howard Grief wrote an article in the magazine Nativ some years ago, and a book, "The Legal Foundation and Borders of Israel under International Law" (Mazo Publishers) just recently detailing how for once, the law of the jungle did not work against the Jewish people.

In this case, the law of the jungle is what the High Contracting Powers did in dividing up the land seized from the Ottoman Empire after WWI. The author, Howard Grief, is the originator of the thesis that de jure sovereignty over the entire Land of Israel and Palestine was vested in the Jewish People as a result of the San Remo Resolution adopted at the San Remo Peace Conference on April 24, 1920. This law, now largely forgotten or neglected, is still relevant today in regard to the status and borders of the Land of Israel. And from here on in, it will be the basis of my arguments, when I make them, regarding the rights of my people to all of the Land of Israel.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You gotta watch them snake-oil salesmen, Sarah!

Out of context quotes do not enlighten at all. They only hide the truth and make true communication difficult. But people with bad arguments (or no arguments) who can only pound the table to make their points, because they have neither the law nor the facts to pound on, find use for them all the time.

#83
commonsense
January 1, 2009
05:59 PM

Oh, thanks for the CON-text again, but i don't think anybody, unless he/she happens to believe in the validity of so-called revealed scriptures (be it Quran, Torah, the Bible etc.) will be conned. This exemplary demonstration of rationality is quite a gem in itself, CON-text or not. So I repeat it once more, just for effect!!

Ruvy:

"The Grant in the Torah of the Land of Israel to the Children of Israel, and its corresponding verses in the Qur'an suffice for me. But for those idiots with a blinkered view of the world wise secular scholars, like commonsense, and for those who do not accept the validity of religious texts, there is another place to go - the law of the jungle - which is really what international law is, dressed up in a suit, tie and watch farb."

I guess you will begin to fulminate if somebody, blinkered by secularism, might laugh at your claim about the earth being flat and the roosters' crowing being the cause of sunrise. Everyone is entitled to their opinions/views. Just don't be too surprised if pea-brained indviduals such as me snort in derision at some views!

#84
kerty
January 1, 2009
07:05 PM

CS

"I guess you will begin to fulminate if somebody, blinkered by secularism, might laugh at your claim about the earth being flat and the roosters' crowing being the cause of sunrise."

- Ruvy has not begun to fulminate
- Ruvy has made no claim that earth is flat
- Ruvy has not claimed Rooster's crowing cause sunrise
- If any claim is made by anyone, it is by you which claims 'somebody blinkered by secularism might laugh' - at claims that nobody has made. You admit at the outset that you are guessing.

So what do we have here as arguments and discussion? Bunch of stuff chopped up and lifted out of their context, bunch of stuff made up out of thin air, bunch of straw arguments presented as clinching facts?

#85
Ruvy
URL
January 1, 2009
11:56 PM

CS,

It's really embarrassing to watch a grown man like you make such a fool out of himself with your idiotic comments and accusations.

#86
commonsense
January 2, 2009
12:15 AM

Worry not Ruvy, I have no idea what I should do after I grow up. Probably continue to be embarrassed about stuff like:

Ruvy:

"The Grant in the Torah of the Land of Israel to the Children of Israel, and its corresponding verses in the Qur'an suffice for me.""

But first I have to grow up, which, will, as you can well see, take time.

#87
commonsense
January 2, 2009
12:22 AM

Ruvy to me:

""CS,

It's really embarrassing to watch a grown man like you make such a fool out of himself""

Worry not Ruvy:

1. I was born a fool and will never be anything else.

2. If you are not embarrassed at claiming and insisting that God himself via the Torah, gave you a piece of land, there is no danger of you ever betting embarrased about anything. You come in with a built-in anti-embarrasment device, so you are incapable of it.

#88
sarah islam
January 2, 2009
12:59 AM

I am getting a little tired of all the labels that are flying around this piece. I have tried to put forward an 'opinion' as opposed to a 'fact' or what some commentators pretend is a fact when it only an opinion. Let me answer some of the comments here, one by one.

Slimy ID:
Excellent! The moment I don't agree with your point of view I am either a Paki or a terrorized Indian Muslim. Which one would you prefer me to be?

You say : 'when will you blame yourselves? Sarah, kindly blame Hamas as they are they are opposing Israel on a religious identity and you are supporting them on the same identity."

No. I do not have the same identity Slimy, but since your identity is more Hindutva than anything else, I wouldn't really hope for you to understand. Pointless question raised here, pointless answer given. Que sera sera.

Kaffir:
'Destruction of Israel' is a retaliatory opinion and I don't think any sane faction of society would even want to pursue that. Practise Gandhiji's way in Palestine? Sure! You are welcome to go on hunger strike while the air strikes target your neighbourhood. I think you need to stop saying things just because you have to comment and get the last word in. You say 'that different Arab cultures and different Muslim sects cannot peacefully co-exist within the same country??? Umm, no. They can't. If you are abroad Kaffir, you will see when you return home, that it isn't easy even in India. Case in point: Marathi vs. Hindi speaking culture etc. 'nuff said.

Commonsense: 'I was quite intrigued when you noted earlier how reasonable Ruvy had been and actually got him into a dialogue with a friend on your blog.'

CS, although Ruvy knows that I don't agree with his point of view and that I do not endorse anything that is written in a religious book, qoran, bible, torah, geeta whatever, I wanted him to have a platform to air his views. No, I also do not believe that we can settle disputes by having the so called word of god pointed out in a book that may or may not have been a political text in the first place.
I hope that makes my POV clear.

Ruvy:You have made your view clear that you believe that the children of Israel should have first preference of living in the land of Israel etc and you know that I fully respect your right to that belief. But your solution of resettling Palestinians in Jordan can be a problematic one as Jordan might be similar in culture but it would be like asking a Kolkatan to settle in Bangladesh because their culture is similar. See what I mean?

Dear All:
I wanted to have a platform to initiate a democratic debate about the situation in Gaza. I am horrified that this 'debate' has spiraled into plain and simple mud-slinging with labels flying left, right and centre. I have tried to be respectful of everyone's POV, but a few of us here are entering this forum only to show off half baked knowledge about the situation by hurriedly reading Wiki or whatever and posting comments only to get a reaction.

Listen, Kerty, Kaffir and all the others if you have strong views to air why not write a post? I assure you we are all ears and no, your name will not immediately cause me to have a sudden attack of xenophobia related to your cast or political ideology. Thank you.



#89
Ruvy
URL
January 2, 2009
02:51 AM

Sarah,

Thank you again for the opportunity to post on your blog-site as a guest and attempt a dialogue with a near neighbor.

But your solution of resettling Palestinians in Jordan can be a problematic one

I think you misread my solution a bit. The immediate solution involves giving Arab residents of the Land of Israel Jordanian citizenship and autonomy over their own towns and districts, with a provision to participate in the politics of Jordan by having delegates in the parliament in Amman representing Judea and Samaria. This once took place before 1967. No Arabs are asked to leave Israel - unless they feel they must commit terror against the country. Then they are out.

They farm, they do business, go to school, elect town and district councils and live their lives within the Land of Israel. But the territory they live on (Judea and Samaria) is under the sovereignty of the State of Israel - or that Jewish entity that succeeds it. The taxes they pay are divided between Jordan and the local councils. If they wish to participate in the Israeli health system, they would pay premiums to the National Insurance Institute here, just like any Israeli would. There is no reason that any Arab living in the Land of Israel should be denied quality health care.

Under this solution, instead of foreign funded NGO's trying to incite conflict between Arabs and Jews, which is what they do now, Arabs and Jews sit down at a council table and work out their differences like human beings - and the NGO's get kicked the hell out. Inciting to violence can lead to death, and the incitement of the NGO's, which is constant, needs to be stopped.

Given that between 70 to 80% of the people who live in Jordan are Arabs who are native to or descended from Arabs native to the Land of Israel, the culture is not merely similar. The most essential difference is that the Jordanian culture is a majority Arab culture, whereas the culture here is a majority Jewish culture. Put just a little differently, the two state solution - an Arab and Jewish state side by side - already exists.

In the less immediate solution, the emptying of the refugee camps in Lebanon and Syria, as well as the slums in Gaza, if the Arabs beginning new lives are Jordanian citizens, it matters little which side of the Jordan they live on.

#90
kerty
January 2, 2009
07:55 AM

"Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said: "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.""

"on the same day Arafat signed the Declaration of Principles on the White House lawn in 1993, he explained his actions on Jordan TV. Here's what
he said: "Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel.""

"In the history of the world, Palestine has never existed as a nation. The region known as Palestine was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the
Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their ancestral homeland. It was never ruled by Arabs as a separate nation."

-- Excerpts from Joseph Farah's article dated July 11,2008 'Palestinian people do not exist'. www.Worldnetdaily.com

#91
commonsense
January 2, 2009
10:02 AM


Sarah:
"Pointless question raised here, pointless answer given. Que sera sera."

Good one!!! Ha Ha! I should try this on the Hindutva and Kahaneite brigade on DC!

Sarah seriously, sorry for the contributing to the downward spiral of this thread. But with so many clamouring ONLY to score points [unlike me who in addition to that, also tries to inject/inflict some commonsense thru humour :)], the texture of any discussion invariably changes. Such is the logic of blogs.

You raise in important point: none of these "here for the purpose of scoring points alone" will ever actually write an article. They specialize only in sniping. The exception being Ruvy, but then again, he exists in a parallel world where so-called revealed texts define reality.

#92
commonsense
January 2, 2009
10:16 AM

from Tariq Ali:

The Gaza Ghetto and Western Cant
By TARIQ ALI

The assault on the Gaza Ghetto, planned over six months and executed with perfect timing was designed largely to help the incumbent parties triumph in the forthcoming Israeli elections. The dead Palestinians are little more than election fodder in a cynical contest between the Right and the Far Right in Israel. Washington and its EU allies, perfectly aware that Gaza was about to be assaulted, as in the case of Lebanon a few years, sit back and watch. Washington, as is its wont, blames the pro-Hamas Palestinians, with Obama and Bush singing from the same AIPAC hymn sheet.

The EU politicians, having observed the build-up, the siege, the collective punishment inflicted on Gaza, the targeting of civilians, etc [See Harvard scholar Sara Roy's chilling essay in the latest LRB] were convinced that it was the rocket attacks that had 'provoked' Israel but called on both sides to end the violence, with nil effect. The moth-eaten Mubarik dictatorship in Egypt and NATO's favourite Islamists in Ankara, failed to even register a symbolic protest by recalling their Ambassadors from Israel. China and Russia did not convene a meeting of the UNSC to discuss the crisis....

#93
sarah islam
URL
January 2, 2009
10:17 AM

hey CS:-)
welcome back!

Yes there is a lot of sniping going on sigh! It stuns me that grown people can actually behave like this. Pls. write to me in gmail (address on blog) I have something I want to dsicuss with you. Thanks for all the fun on this thread:-)

#94
commonsense
January 2, 2009
10:21 AM

Tariq Ali

"The only acceptable alternative is a single state for Jews and Palestinians alike, in which the exactions of Zionism are repaired.

There is no other way. And Israeli citizens might ponder the following words from Shakespeare [The Merchant of Venice] that I have slightly altered:

'I am a Palestinian. Hath not a Palestinian eyes? Hath not a Palestinian hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Jew is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die?And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that...the villainy you teach me, I will execute; and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction."

#95
sarah islam
URL
January 2, 2009
10:23 AM

Commonsense
yes I have read sara roy. you are right it is chilling. EU are a bunch of nuts! Honestly didn't know I would meet such resistance to my pointing out the fact the Palestinians may actually be human beings. hmm!

#96
sarah islam
URL
January 2, 2009
10:24 AM

Commonsense:

'I am a Palestinian. Hath not a Palestinian eyes? Hath not a Palestinian hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Jew is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die?And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that...the villainy you teach me, I will execute; and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction."

Good one.

#97
commonsense
January 2, 2009
10:52 AM

Sarah:

""Listen, Kerty, Kaffir and all the others if you have strong views to air why not write a post? I assure you we are all ears and no, your name will not immediately cause me to have a sudden attack of xenophobia related to your cast or political ideology"'

Unfortunately and depressingly enough, a standard operating procedure here. These guys (mostly guys actually) usually scatter after their xenophobia, hate etc. is exposed. Of course they complain about the "lack of logic" emanating from those who do not partake in the noble worldview fuelled by ethnic/religious stereotyping etc. only to re-appear later to engage with newcomers on DC. Only to scatter again when taken to task by yours truly! And so it goes!!

Just a small sampling of the standard operating procedure: (a public service announcement from the chronicler of hilariously depressing moments on DC!)


Kerty: "Bengalis who have fascination with abstract world and would rather escape from the real world" (On Somik Raha's piece; being "bengali" apparently is the crime here)

Ledzius: "the author himself seems to have a Muslim name" (QED)

Morris: ""Do you see any muslim country having functioning democracy?... The only major exception is Turkey."" (CS: Takes the cake and the Christmas Turkey too!)

Chandra: "commonsense, sweetheart, stop pretending you are Indian" (!!?).

#98
commonsense
January 2, 2009
10:56 AM

Sarah (and others)

#92 and #94 are extended quotes from the writer Tariq Ali's long article circulating in cyberspace.

Just in case somebody accuses me of plagiarism or false pretence!!

#99
smallsquirrel
January 2, 2009
10:56 AM

CS, you forgot to add me pissing my pants. I am depressed :)

#100
commonsense
January 2, 2009
11:09 AM

SS,

Oops yes! sorry. perhaps because that comment in the exchange with ruvy was a bit too recent. added on to my memoryscape!

#101
sarah islam
URL
January 2, 2009
11:40 AM

CS
hahaha :)
Beautiful! u just made my day!
I was depressed but not anymore:-)

check out my piece on our bigoted friends:

http://puffthemagic-dragon.blogspot.com/2009/01/grow-up-india-look.html

#102
commonsense
January 2, 2009
01:34 PM

sarah,

you are welcome! (just a small slice of the daily inanities i have to wade thru!)

will check out your blog and will email you too...

#103
Slime_id
January 2, 2009
01:40 PM

wish Sarah understood that we have perspectives than branding my comments as stemming from hindutva.

I wish Sarah was grown up herself in the idea that world henceforth wont Hamas. The rules have changed

The questions are the same.
1) Palestine must follow Jordainian model.
2) Hindutva is neither Kertian nor slimy version. Hindutva exists in plural versions. Hating Modi is not a solution for The Islamic brigade.
3) Islam is hardly 13 centuries old. It has its ups and downs. Dont fret over militants killed in gaza . Do we fret over Tamilian Hindu militants killed nearer us. No. Coz we know that such support to militants only damages the human spirit.

The idea that I am a muslim and hence cannot be questioned must be removed. Muslims need to understand that world looks at them differently and hence must do the maximum to remove terror elements in the otherwise largely moderate and peace loving Islamic population. This certainly hold true for Sarah who is a Indian Muslim terrorized by events in muslim heartland called Gaza.

#104
Morris
January 2, 2009
02:11 PM

CS

"Morris: ""Do you see any muslim country having functioning democracy?... The only major exception is Turkey.""(CS: Takes the cake and the Christmas Turkey too!)"

Chrismas is gone but this Turkey is still the only major exception. You keep deluding yourself that will not sprout democracy in Islamic countries.

"The only acceptable alternative is a single state for Jews and Palestinians alike, in which the exactions of Zionism are repaired"

With Turkey being the only major excepton who in his right mind will think that that single state will function as a democray? I will not say never. Perhaps a century from now. Islamic world is slow to evolve. Please face the reality. It does not go away by keeping your eyes closed and denying it. No argument here. Only my observation. You don't see it that way. That is your privilege. But results speak for themselves and any impartial observer can see it.

Enjoy

#105
Slime_id
January 2, 2009
02:28 PM

Sarah
"No. I do not have the same identity Slimy, but since your identity is more Hindutva than anything else, I wouldn't really hope for you to understand."

Here is a Islamic Monger speaking on Hindutva. haraS sed Islami or simply assed ma'si.

Hindutva is such a bad name for these ma'sis that they stop hoping too. She writes in her blog that lack of education or Islampobhia. nice try Sarah mas'si.
India is India . We were a superpower and we are a superpower and we will be superpower with or without Hindutva elements. We don't need the regional powers to nod our growth.

#106
commonsense
January 2, 2009
02:56 PM

Morris:

""Chrismas is gone but this Turkey is still the only major exception. You keep deluding yourself that will not sprout democracy in Islamic countries.""

Christmas is gone and with it, the cake and the turkey too.

however, potatoes are still around, covered in "slime." brussel sprouts will sprout when they will, but when they do, it will happen not in belgium but perhaps malaysia, indonesia, bangladesh maybe.

#107
commonsense
January 2, 2009
03:25 PM

Morris:

""With Turkey being the only major excepton who in his right mind will think that that single state will function as a democray? I will not say never. Perhaps a century from now. Islamic world is slow to evolve. Please face the reality. It does not go away by keeping your eyes closed and denying it. No argument here. Only my observation.""

This observer, presumably with his eyes wide shut, has presumably not heard of elections in:

1. Malaysia
2. Indonesia
3. Bangladesh
4. Palestinian Territories (we may dislike them intensely as I do, but Hamas was elected)
5 Pakistan

Or perhaps he did, but he mis-heard it as "erections", maybe even phallic ones.

Self-denying prediction: morris will come back to argue elections in these societies don't mean shit since they are not "secular democracies" democracy. A "slimy" (not ID) shift in the original claim, that he hopelessly hopes will not be detected.

#108
commonsense
January 2, 2009
03:39 PM

conveniently enough, me taking a well deserved break now, perhaps for a week, so please don't expect any more pearls of wisdom (:-) from me for a while. I know this will be tough, particularly for kerty who will experience severe "withdrawal" (:-)symptoms, but what the heck, even I deserve a break. sincere apologies!

#109
commonsense
January 2, 2009
03:59 PM

hey that was a short week!!

naah, just wanted to remind everyone that this is my first break in about two years!

have fun folks! please do something that I wouldn't do!

#110
Slime_id
January 2, 2009
04:36 PM

By Atia Abawi
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/01/02/afghan.suicide.recruit/index.html

Now Atia is also a writer who in this articles exposes Muslim mullahs and their dangerous deception. Wish Sarah wrote such articles, or is she blind to the Islamic malpractices which revolve around the Holy Quoran as a bait.

CNN
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KABUL, Afghanistan (CNN) -- A 14-year-old who was trained to kill by radicals in the tribal regions of Pakistan now sits in a crowded classroom at a detention facility in Kabul. His only wish is to see his parents again.
Shakirullah, 14, is convicted of planning to carry out a suicide bombing in Afghanistan.

Shakirullah, 14, is convicted of planning to carry out a suicide bombing in Afghanistan.
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"I miss my parents, my mom and dad," Shakirullah says in soft tones. Like others in tribal regions, he goes by one name.

Shakirullah is already a convicted terrorist for planning to carry out a suicide bombing. He says Muslim radicals lied and tricked him into becoming a would-be bomber. "I have been detained for trying to commit a suicide attack," he says.

He says his recruiters told him it was his mission as a Muslim to kill British and American soldiers because they were killing Muslims. Video Watch teen say recruiters "cheated me" »

They told him that once he blew himself up he wouldn't die because God would save him for being a true Muslim.

Asked what he now thinks of Americans and Westerners, Shakirullah is calm, but quick in his response.

"I don't know. God knows what type of people they are, whether they are good or bad. I don't know them," he says.

Shakirullah now passes his hours in a cell block at a juvenile detention facility in Kabul. He is serving at least five years in detention. He is to be transferred to an adult prison in a couple of years, authorities say.

He hasn't heard from his family in the North-West Frontier Province of Pakistan. He tried to send them a letter through the International Committee of the Red Cross but is not sure it reached them.

"I don't know what they are thinking. They have no news of me," he says.

On this day, Shakirullah attends a rehabilitation class, easily lost in the crowd of boys with shaved heads. All of the children are convicted for various crimes, including theft, fighting and even murder.

Three boys like Shakirullah are here, all guilty of planning to kill themselves and others after being recruited by terrorist groups.
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With the increased violence in Afghanistan, international observers say they have seen more and more children being recruited by armed groups and national forces. The Taliban, which ruled Afghanistan with its strict Islamic rule from 1996 to 2001, has regrouped and launched a fierce insurgency.

"As you see in many places in the world, children are being used in armed conflict. They've been recruited as child soldiers; they've been recruited as armed groups. And the phenomena is now impacting, again, Afghanistan," says Catherine Mbengue, the UNICEF representative in Afghanistan. Video Watch one boy's struggle begging for food on streets »

Inside the detention center, Shakirullah walks up to his cell, his sandals sliding across the tile floor.

The cell block is empty and has metal bunk beds lined across the wall and a television set, ready for the times they have electricity. Shakirullah shares this space with 10 other boys. He sits in the center of the room with a blanket draped around him.

He barely makes eye contact and looks away as soon as he does. He is shy, but forthright in his words. "I didn't want to do it but he forced me to go," he says of his recruiter.

Rubbing his face with his hand, he says he now spends his time dreaming of his life back home in rural Pakistan. His eyes begin to water and his voice becomes softer when he talks about missing his mother.

Asked what he misses most about her, he says simply, "A mother is a mother."

His was a life of farming and tranquility in Pakistan, he says. It was also a life that took a drastic turn when his father decided to send Shakirullah for studies at a madrassa.

He says his dad wanted him to learn more about Islam and the Quran, something he could not do himself. He says his father didn't know radicals ran the school.

In the madrassa, Shakirullah learned to recite the Quran in Arabic, not his native language. He relied solely on the fanatical interpretations the mullahs were giving him.

"When I finished reciting the Quran, a mullah then came to me and told me, 'Now that you have finished the Quran, you need to go and commit a suicide attack.' That I should go to Afghanistan to commit a suicide attack," he says.

The teenager wasn't given the chance to say goodbye to his parents or siblings when he was driven to the Pakistan-Afghan border and handed over to strangers.

He says he was taken to the southeastern province of Khost, a hotbed for terrorist activity in Afghanistan. Suicide attacks have risen in Afghanistan since the U.S.-led invasion to topple the Taliban began in late 2001, after the 9/11 attacks on New York and the Pentagon.

Shakirullah says that before the police arrested him, he was learning how to drive a car but that he was not sure how he was supposed to carry out his attack.

Khost is the province where a suicide car bomb went off near a voter registration site this past Sunday, killing 16 people, 14 of whom were children.

At the juvenile detention facility, Shakirullah and the others are now being taught a different interpretation of Islam.

"The teachers educate them on Islam, and explain to them that the acts that they were doing is not right for them and for others," says Mir Fayaz ah-Din, who works and lives with the boys at the facility, mentoring them and helping them in their rehabilitation.
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"The way you want to kill yourself and someone else -- it in itself is a big offense in Islam."

Shakirullah now says of his recruiters, "They cheated me."

#111
kerty
January 2, 2009
09:47 PM



Tariq Ali writes: "'I am a Palestinian. Hath not a Palestinian eyes? Hath not a Palestinian hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? Fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Jew is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die?And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that...the villainy you teach me, I will execute; and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction."

One can have two different take on this:

There is this Palestinian who thinks he is no different from Jews, who accepts Jews to be just like him, who wants to live among Jews, but he has been wronged, pricked, poisoned and taught revenge and villainy, and he promises to execute the same with better instruction. It promises villiany because he has good justifications - He has no intention to harm Jews, be Isreal has wronged him.

Than there is this Palestinian who thinks he can not live with anybody who is not Palestinian, who is not Moslem, therefore he can not rest until Israel is destroyed and all Jews expelled. His sense of wrong stems from the very existence of Jews and Israel in their midst. He promises villainy with better instructions. Since he can't better Israel in term of military might, his weapon of choice remains terrorism and propaganda war. But he has to sell Jehadi as a victim, terrorist as average joe.

That is what Tariq wants to sell us - a Jehadi as average Joe. Both versions of Palestinian promise the same things - villainy with vengence - for different reasons, of course. First type wants to wipe off Israel because he is wronged by Israel. The other one wants to wipe off Israel because it is his Jihadi duty.

A true moderate moslem would use such opportunity to isolate the jehadis, and not seek to package Jehadi as average Moslem. But Moderate moslem remains a oxymoron. That is what makes war on terror so tough and why terrorists enjoy so much immunity from backlash - because so-called moderate Moslems shelter the Jehadis as average Moslems, and any attack on terrorism is propagandized by them as attack on Moslems and Islam. Until that changes, war on terror would continue to have difficulty separating Jehadis from average Joe.

#112
sarah islam
URL
January 2, 2009
11:05 PM


Kerty:
"Tariq wants to sell us - a Jehadi as average Joe. Both versions of Palestinian promise the same things - villainy with vengence - for different reasons, of course."

Of colurse wouldn't expect someone as far right as Kerty to understand anything but simple black and white stuff. Whoops! 'Tariq Ali' wrong name for Kerty's sensibilities too!

Slimy Id:
Atia Abawi was writing about another conflict, another place. So you just want the TRUTH about Islama and no other viewpoint, is it? only sting operations? Take a chill pill and go expose one more truth to your yourself : that you know zilch about politics and conflict resolution is certainly not your forte.

Slime_id
Hindutva is hindutva and that's that! Ma'si or no ma'si India has rejected RSS and its cronies so get over it! It is difficult for you or the bajrand dal that there can be another point of view. Do something cosntructive and write your own piece.

Don't piggytail on my piece and get a life!



#113
Slime_id
January 3, 2009
02:44 AM

If Sarah knew conflict resolution, she would have not invoked Modi, and Bajrang Dal which seems like Varan bath in Marathi, if she knew about piggy tails, she would have acknowledged that Hamas are preparing their children to fight another war. We know these courtesy Atia , all we need an Israeeli armed invasion to fight the TRUTH about the rocket factories in Gaza. It is another matter that Israel is blocking mediaperson like Atia to report the Islamic malpratices in Gaza which she did in Afganistan.

If Sarah wants peace, she must ask herself as how she must expose the FALSEHOOD.

The fucking Hamas leader sits in Syria and says he is ready for guerilla war. The Al Jazaeera shows it. The political fallout is that crooks stay outside Gaza and claim they know Gaza.

BTW desicritics gives me enough right to pigggytail you and what the heck Sarah if you are irritable or simply pretending irritated?

#114
commonsense
January 3, 2009
04:07 PM

Slimy D:

"The fucking Hamas leader sits in Syria.."

Relax Slime! some people prefer to do it in the horizontal position, while others do it will siting...different folks, different strokes...

#115
commonsense
January 3, 2009
04:10 PM

Chandra:

"commonsense, sweetheart, stop pretending you are Indian"

Chandra, could you please stop pretending that I'm your "sweetheart"! Please. Don't let our secret out in blogistan. How can you I rest in peace in Lurkistan if you keep making such innuendos??

#116
Chandra
January 3, 2009
11:05 PM

CS

I did not write that comment.

#117
commonsense
January 3, 2009
11:24 PM

Chandra to CS:

"I did not write that comment."

There are facts and there are interpretations. You sure did write that comment and I will tell you where to find it. Adil Najam's article, "View from Pakistan: I am a Mumbaikar Today" (Nov. 28, 2008). Here is "reprint", thank god for the internet! You can also google it on DC to find it for your self. Now, will you believe your own two eyes or me? (answer: both, since I'm not making it up)

Here is the link if you're feeling lazy!

http://desicritics.org/2008/11/28/142608.php


Scroll down and search for comment #32

""#32
Chandra
November 29, 2008
11:36 AMCS-10

Sweetheart, stop pretending to be an Indian.""

Khush??? Whatever assinine shit I might indulge in, and I accept I do, I am not into delusions. Except for the delusion that I can inflict commonsense on others!!

Khush??

#118
commonsense
January 3, 2009
11:31 PM

OK Braveheart, there is a minor typographical difference between your original:

""#32
Chandra
November 29, 2008
11:36 AMCS-10

Sweetheart, stop pretending to be an Indian.""

and my memory of it:

"commonsense, sweetheart, stop pretending you are Indian"

If you it makes you khush, you can make a big deal out of it and claim that what you wrote was the same words, but re-arranged!

Chandra, not a big deal, just messing around as I have little else to do!! No sweat man. I will stop repeating this. Nothing personal against you.






#119
Chandra
January 4, 2009
03:02 AM

CS

I did not write comment 116

#120
Anamika
January 4, 2009
05:28 AM

Guess more people are beginning to say what many of us desis have said in past discussions on this and other sites:

Today, Peter Beaumont writes:

"It is wrong to blame Israel entirely. Some culpability must also attach to the friends and allies who have so long supported it in a conception of itself so out of step with the post-colonial era, not least the United States, whose outgoing president George W Bush once again supplied Israel with a free pass yesterday by attaching responsibility over what has happened in Gaza entirely to Hamas.

In some respects, Israel is suffering the same malaise that afflicted Britain in the aftermath of the Second World War. Then, by virtue of being on the winning side, it took this country decades to come to terms with the fact that in reality it was a military, colonial and economic power in decline. It is a process Israel must also confront - to recognise its painful and difficult history is not a perpetual guarantee of sympathy and a free hand to act as brutally as it wishes."

#121
commonsense
January 4, 2009
11:52 AM

good quote anamika. in addition to the specific differences as there are bound to be, it is pretty much the same patter of colonial haughtiness. exhibited, when pushed (what he calls a bait) here on DC by the likes of Ruvy (Indian accents) and his faithful cheerleaders who need not be named.

#122
kerty
January 4, 2009
12:12 PM

Anamika


"George W Bush once again supplied Israel with a free pass yesterday by attaching responsibility over what has happened in Gaza entirely to Hamas."

Where has been Peter Beaumont all these years? What has he done to attach any responsibility to enemies of Israel? He is part of a familiar circus that come out only when Israel acts in self-defence and against acts of terrorism. These clowns have no accountability to attach to jehadis and their terror wars upon rest of the world. They have truly become the spokespersons for Jehadis. They can't see Jehadis - all they see is Islamophobia. They can't see terrorism. All they see is freedom fighting. They can't see 60 year incessant war to destroy Israel, all they see is war on Palestine and illegal occupation. Forget that Jehadis view whole world as land owned by Allah but occupied illegally by Kaffirs to be liberated by terrorist warfare. Apologists of Jehadis have made Israel their favorite whipping boy and Jehadis, wronged people of zionism and imperialism.

#123
commonsense
January 4, 2009
12:19 PM

Chandra:

""CS

I did not write comment 116""

And on my part, I didn't write any comments at all. In fact I have not visited DC for at least three weeks now. This is my first visit after a long time, so good to see you!

#124
commonsense
January 4, 2009
12:21 PM

Ruvy's cheerleader need not be named as he constantly makes himself so prominent thru his cheerleading.

#125
Anamika
January 4, 2009
12:27 PM

And Mark Steel's superb satire in the Independent today:

"For example, Condoleezza Rice, having observed that more than 300 Gazans were dead, said: "We are deeply concerned about the escalating violence. We strongly condemn the attacks on Israel and hold Hamas responsible."

Someone should ask her to comment on teenage knife-crime, to see if she'd say: "I strongly condemn the people who've been stabbed, and until they abandon their practice of wandering around clutching their sides and bleeding, there is no hope for peace."

The Israeli government suffers terribly from this confusion. They probably have adverts on Israeli television in which a man falls off a ladder and screams, "Eeeeugh", then a voice says, "Have you caused an accident at work in the last 12 months?" and the bloke who pushed him gets £3,000."

#126
commonsense
January 4, 2009
12:50 PM

A piece by the Israeli Uri Avenry:

""The following humble suggestions are based on my seventy years of experience as an underground fighter, special forces soldier in the 1948 war, editor-in-chief of a newsmagazine, member of the Knesset and founding member of a peace movement"

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090112/avnery?rel=hp_currently

some excerpts:

"5) All the settlements since 1967 have been built with the express purpose of making a Palestinian state--and hence peace--impossible, by cutting the territory of the prospective State of Palestine into ribbons. Practically all our government departments and the army have openly or secretly helped to build, consolidate and enlarge the settlements--as confirmed by the 2005 report prepared for the government by lawyer Talia Sasson.

6) By now, the number of settlers in the West Bank has reached some 250,000 (apart from the 200,000 settlers in the Greater Jerusalem area, whose status is somewhat different). They are politically isolated, and sometimes detested by the majority of the Israel public, but enjoy significant support in the army and government ministries.

7) No Israeli government would dare to confront the concentrated political and material might of the settlers. Such a confrontation would need very strong leadership and the unstinting support of the President of the United States to have any chance of success.

8) Lacking these, all "peace negotiations" are a sham. The Israeli government and its US backers have done everything possible to prevent the negotiations with both the Palestinians and the Syrians from reaching any conclusion, for fear of provoking a confrontation with the settlers and their supporters. The present "Annapolis" negotiations are as hollow as all the preceding ones, each side keeping up the pretense for its own political interests."



#127
commonsense
January 4, 2009
12:52 PM

Anamika, funny. I guess Ms. Rice is busy preparing her "the birth pangs of a new middle east" volume 2 speech, before Obama takes over.

#128
kerty
January 4, 2009
04:20 PM

CS

"5) All the settlements since 1967 have been built with the express purpose of making a Palestinian state--and hence peace--impossible"

Palestinians never had a state of their own. Not every ethnic or tribe have their own state even today. Palestinians have always been small fries within larger empires. So not having a state of their own is not ground-breaking or earth shattering. On the other hand, Israel does have a nation/state, it is well within its rights to settle it as it sees fit and defend it as it deems fit.

Palestinaians should have become the champions of secularism, pluralism, diversity and milti-culturalism in order to make Israeli nation/state tolerant and hospitable - instead, they chose to become the torch-bearers of Islamic theocracy, terrorist jehadism, henchmen of intolerant wahabism, epicenter of global Jehad. That has made peace with Israel impossible.

#129
commonsense
January 4, 2009
04:50 PM

from a recent piece by the American writer Wallace Shawn titled _Israel in Gaza: Irrationality_

Full link here:http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090112/shawn?rel=hp_currently



Excerpt:

""Recent history shows that the Jews, as a people, have found few friends who are honest and true. During World War II, when Hitler's anti-Semitism was responsible for the murdering of the millions of Jews, the world and the United States expressed their own anti-Semitism by refusing to house and welcome the tortured race, preferring instead to let it be exterminated if need be. After the war, the world felt it owed the Jews something--but then showed its lack of true regard for the tormented group by "giving" them a piece of land populated and surrounded by another people--an act of European imperialism carried out exactly at the moment when non-European peoples all over the world were finally concluding that European imperialism was completely unacceptable and had to be resisted. And now we have the spectacle of American politicians encouraging and financing Israeli policies which will ultimately lead to more disaster and destruction for Jews.

It is not rational to believe that the Palestinians in the occupied territories will be terrorized by force and violence, by cruelty, by starvation or by slaughter into a docile acceptance of the Israeli occupation. There is no evidence that that could possibly happen and mountains of evidence to the contrary.""

#130
Anamika
January 4, 2009
04:52 PM

Beyond your pro-Israel, neocon, "Islam equals jihad/terror" etc rants, do you ever stop to look at the facts? The death toll, oppression and brutality practised by the Zionist state is well documented as disproportionate. DO a comparitive headcount of ONLY the Palestinian children killed by Israeli army vs ALL Israeli civilians killed by the much discussed Hamas rockets, before spouting opinions that reveal nothing more than your ignorance and prejudice.

History shows us that EVERY injustice takes a toll on the people who practise it who are eventually destroyed. It happened with the Nazis, and to the ancient Persians.

In 1948, Israel had all the sympathy in the world because it was a refuge for the brutalised people. In the decades since the nation has shown itself to be incredibly like a child of abusive parents which has taken on Nazi words, imagery, tactics and strategies that it suffered itself (Example: In 2006, the Israeli ambassador to India told Indian press that the Lebanese were "cockroaches" - a sentiment not too different from that of Goebbels). They squandered all morality to become the very thing/people they had hated and been oppressed by. Ironic how history works!

IF you read ANYTHING about the ground realities of the occupied territories, you would realise that unless Israel is ready and willing to kill EVERY SINGLE Palestinian (which is going to materially impossible even if it had the will), in the long term, time/history/events are all on the Palestinian side.

#131
Kerty
January 4, 2009
05:11 PM

Anamika

"DO a comparitive headcount of ONLY the Palestinian children killed by Israeli army vs ALL Israeli civilians killed by the much discussed Hamas rockets, before spouting opinions that reveal nothing more than your ignorance and prejudice."

That Israel kills more innocent Palestainians than Palestinians kill Jews. So if Hamas were to kill more jews, than it would be perfectly ok.

That Israeli response is not proportionate - it chooses to kill hundreds for each Israeli killed by Palestinians.

That if India were to kill more Pakistanis than killed in Mumbai terror attacks, it would be considered disproportionate attack. And should Indian strike kill families of terrorists, we have have blood of civilians on our hands.

That those who engage in terrorism and those who fight terrorism are morally equivalent and morally indistinguishable - to be judged only by whoever kills more against who kills less. And that is not prejudice or ignorance.

#132
Anamika
January 4, 2009
05:54 PM

First a fact: 14 Israeli civilians killed in rocket attacks over the past 7 years VS 5000 Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli army (including 45 in the past year in the West Bank which does not even shoot the rockets!)

And now a little bedtime story about "terrorists":

Once upon a time, there was a place, where 38% of the native population was forced to live in a piece of land which was about 4.5% of the size of the people's native country.

The piece of land was closed off the outside world by a wall and armed guards. Thousands of people were forced to leave their homes in the countryside and live in this ghetto.

On a daily basis, they faced disease, starvation, unemployment, random killings and humiliation. Smuggling was often the only source of subsistence for ghetto inhabitants who would otherwise have died of starvation.

Then the occupying army began massive murders of the inhabitants. Many of those imprisoned in the ghetto decided to fight. Two resistance organisations took control of the place, building shelters and fighting posts and operating against the enemy. The resistance ran schools, found food and medicine for the population generally through smuggling, and found ways of keeping the population alive, both physically and mentally.

These resistance fighters were called TERRORISTS by the occupying side which sent in a large army. The powerfully equipped army entered the ghetto, systematically burned and blew up the ghetto buildings, block by block, rounding up or murdering the people inconsiderately. Their aim was genocide and holocaust.

You may say it's irrelevant or that its a jihadi fantasy, but I am talking about the Warsaw Ghetto: the year is 1943, the resistance organisations are ZOB anb ZZW and the occupying force are the Nazis.

Sweet dreams to those of you who are so quick to deal out death and judgement on a powerless oppressed people!

#133
smallsquirrel
January 4, 2009
06:27 PM

as anamika so rightly points out, perspective seems to be all about which side of the barbed wire fence you find yourself on.

#134
kerty
January 4, 2009
06:55 PM

Anamika

"14 Israeli civilians killed in rocket attacks over the past 7 years VS 5000 Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli army"

Since only 14 Israelis were actually killed by 1000+ rockets launched by Hamas, whole of Israel has no reason to feel terrorized. I wonder why whole of India is so worked up over 17O lives lost in Mumbai terror incident when India has billion plus people who were not harmed at all by terrorists. What is the point of attacking Pakistan and killing a whole lot more people over such paltry sum of lives lost during Mumbai terror? Killing few thousands people for 170 seem so disproportionate and unjust.

Israel would explain you how each of those 50000 were killed during war, a just war in retaliation for terrorism. People get killed in wars. That is the nature of war. Best thing is not to engage in war. But one can't declare war to wipe out Israel and not expect casualties. One can't declare terrorism upon civilians and not expect civilian casualties in return. We can compare relative casualties as if that alone confers moral justification to their respective causes, but wars are waged to destroy the other side and one side will always do better over the other side, that is the whole point of war.

"Once upon a time, there was a place, where 38% of the native population was forced to live in a piece of land which was about 4.5% of the size of the people's native country."

Are you referring to Bangladesh who feel they got bums rap by India? Be careful what you say, for both Paksitan and Bengladesh would like to justify their jehad on India on same grounds.

"The piece of land was closed off the outside world by a wall and armed guards. Thousands of people were forced to leave their homes in the countryside and live in this ghetto."

I guess one of the condition for relinquishing Gaza by Israel must have been that Gaza must not be used as staging area to carry on Jihad against Israel. When Gaza continues to be be a staging area, it leaves not too many options to Israel.

"On a daily basis, they faced disease, starvation, unemployment, random killings and humiliation. Smuggling was often the only source of subsistence for ghetto inhabitants who would otherwise have died of starvation."

All they have to do is to drop their pledge of living on grass to continue their Jehad for 1000 years. They can't have it both ways. Those who shed crocodile tears for them are oil-rich nations who can easily take those 1.5M and take care of them in the same spirit of Islamic brotherhood that they use to treat Palestinians as fodders and human shield for their Jehad against infidels.

"These resistance fighters were called TERRORISTS by the occupying side which sent in a large army."

Israel is a legitimate nation state, and not an occupying state. Those who seek to destroy it using terrorism are terrorists. No amount of propaganda or humanizing of Jehadis will change that.







#135
commonsense
January 4, 2009
08:03 PM

Anamika:

""History shows us that EVERY injustice takes a toll on the people who practise it who are eventually destroyed. It happened with the Nazis, and to the ancient Persians.""

absolutely! it is hard to come up with a universal generalization, but there are no exceptions to this rule.

#136
kerty
January 4, 2009
08:41 PM

CS

Anamika:"History shows us that EVERY injustice takes a toll on the people who practise it who are eventually destroyed. It happened with the Nazis, and to the ancient Persians."

CS:"absolutely! it is hard to come up with a universal generalization, but there are no exceptions to this rule."

1) Could it be that Palestinians are paying for the injustices of occupying the holy land of Jews and denying the same for thousands of years to Jews?

2) What about USA, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Moguls who invaded and captured alien land- have they been punished or destroyed? British colonialists occupied so may alien territories and inflicted injustices upon countless Palestine-like ethnic groups - was it punished or destroyed? India was invaded by Moslems and was occupied using terror and rapine lasting for several centuries - did they ever got punished for their injustices. No they got Pakistan and Bangladesh as their rewards.

3)Truth does not prevail all the time. Right is not always Might. We wouldn't need to assert it if truth always prevailed. Because more often than not, it does not. That is why battles of right over might, good over evil, Dharma over adharma is eternal, and not settled for all time to come. That jews have 'might' on their side and palestinians have 'right' has all the trappings of a jihad.

#137
Anamika
January 5, 2009
05:34 AM

Kerty - its best you stop before you dig yourself into a MUCH bigger hole than you have already because your thinking (lack of) is undermining your own argument.

I made a point of specific regimes that are oppressive/colonial/brutal/or to use your own term "adharmi" eventually fall under their own weight, regardless of how long it takes: Example: Persians, Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Carthagians, Ottomans, Damascenes, Arabs and Aztecs from the past. In the Indian context, the great empires collapsed when they became brutal and oppressive dating right back to the Mauryas, Guptas and then to your favourite Mughals! Even the European colonial powers of the past 500 years are on the long sharp road to decline, and crumbling fast.

You have chosen to apply my statement selectively to air your own Islamophobia and sick hatred of Muslims by saying: "Could it be that Palestinians are paying for the injustices of occupying the holy land of Jews and denying the same for thousands of years to Jews?"

I would STRONGLY recommend you backtrack NOW because IF you want to go down that route, there could be similarly disgusting and hateful questions asked about the destruction of the European Jewry in WW2. And THAT my friend is not going to be conducive to your blind support of Zionism.

Also you talk a lot of Hindutva and Hindu logic on DC but so far your theory of dharma/adharma has been half-baked and more Semitic (thanks to those hundreds of years of Muslim/Christian rule, I suppose) than Hindu.

Dharma IS eternal, and it must be fought for constantly but it is one aspect of Hindu philosophy.

There is NO escaping the Karmic cycle which has a action-consequence path that even divine intervention cannot change (READ the Bhagwad Gita where Krishna very specifically states that he too is subject to the cosmic laws and not able to direct/intervene in that action-consequence pattern). It might take a long time in human terms, but there ALWAYS is a consequence.

#138
Ledzius
January 5, 2009
05:42 AM

Anamika - nothing is ever permanent, not empires, businesses, technologies, etc. This has nothing to do with Karmic cycles, but just a simple law of evolution.

#139
sarah islam
URL
January 5, 2009
05:59 AM

I just dropped in to see how the thread is doing. Very happy to see Kerty still going at it with hammer and tongs and half a brain as usual.

Kerty:

'I wonder why whole of India is so worked up over 17O lives lost in Mumbai terror incident when India has billion plus people who were not harmed at all by terrorists. What is the point of attacking Pakistan and killing a whole lot more people over such paltry sum of lives lost during Mumbai terror?'

Sorry Kerty wherever you are in the US of A, India is not going to war. Sad, for war mongers like you isn't it? If war would make you so happy, I suggest you sign a petition along with your Bajrang Dal buddies and send it to the relevant authorities instead of writing all your claptrap here. Like I said, post buddy, post! I can't wait to highlight every line and throw it back in your face. Actually, why don't you write about the Mughal rule in India since you are such an expert on it? Hey?

Oh, and Kerty my next post on Israel will go up in a few days. Aren't you happy you will once again get the chance to spew your zionist, Bajrang Dali crap all over again? Just in case we have forgotten some of your gems?

'Israel is a legitimate nation state, and not an occupying state.'

Really? By what definition? On second thoughts, don't bother as you will frantically need to read up on Wikipedia and other second hand documents to buttress your senseless logic and we will have to read your drivel again.

Anamika,

Thank you for dropping in on this thread. My undying gratitude for the whiff of sanity that you bring along with you. 'I would STRONGLY recommend you backtrack NOW because IF you want to go down that route, there could be similarly disgusting and hateful questions asked about the destruction of the European Jewry in WW2. And THAT my friend is not going to be conducive to your blind support of Zionism.'

Well said, well said.

Commonsense, thanks for the great comments, as usual:-)

#140
Ruvy
URL
January 5, 2009
08:47 AM

Sarah,

I looked at comment #92, the whine of Tariq Ali about the Israeli attack on the "Gaza Ghetto". All I can say if "poor fucker - may ass bleeds for him".

The Nazis did not allow food trucks to enter the Warsaw Ghetto in 1942-43. They did not allow aid to enter the Warsaw Ghetto. They took Jews to concentration camps and either worked them to death or killed them outright. So, when the first Jew appeared with a weapon when our people finally decided to rebel against the Nazis - again, let me emphasize, with no aid trucks coming in, no CNN to make them look wonderful, no rescue boats - NO NOTHING - the first German who saw that Jew said "Juden? Waffen?" (Jews? Weapons?) in utter disbelief before he was killed.

There is no way one can say "Araber? Waffen? when talking about Gaza. The bastards have been attacking us with one kind of weapon or another since 2000. This attack on Gaza is long, long overdue. If the Arabs don't want to die, then they shouldn't start wars. You don't want me to draw my pistol and blow you away? Don't try to kill me. It is all that simple. And Sarah, you can tell that to that Khalid fellow. He can jump up and down and holler "Nazi Jew!" some more and give himself a heart attack, if he wants to.

I don't feel sorry for the poor fuckers. They've had this coming for a long time, and they deserve it. And now our forces have knocked out the cell phones. Good!

#141
Anamika
January 5, 2009
09:04 AM

Sarah, Thanks. I stay off DC because of the sickness that seems to pervade the threads. But staying silent in face of fanaticism - of ALL ilks - is the worst crime. So.....

Re #140: Funny how similar that sounds to stuff that has been recorded post-Kristallnacht. Just swap the words Nazis for Zionist, and Jews for Arab/Palestinian. Truly, they are worthy heirs of the National Socialist cancer!

#142
Ruvy
URL
January 5, 2009
09:27 AM

No, Anamika, the Wahhabi scum who massacred Jews in Hebron in 1929 are the heirs to the Nazis; they collaborated with the bastards in WWII, they shielded them in Egypt and Syrian after WWII, they follow the Nazi ideology of Jew-hatred now. The Israelis who side with them are their useful idiots, and if G-d forbid the scum ever do win, they will execute the Hiloni traitors who have helped them and rape their wives - just like they raped a UN worker a few days ago.

UN workers are here to help these assholes. The thanks? Four Arabs trailed this woman to her home, tied her up and gang raped her. The young Scandinavian woman who was the victim will not have any further sympathy for these woman-hating bastards. She'll return home and tell her friends, and they too will lose sympathy for the assholes, in spite of the politically correct and bigoted media there.

So, not only are these Arabs the true heirs of Nazism, they are ungrateful savages to boot.

#143
smallsquirrel
January 5, 2009
09:28 AM

ruvy, your words bring shame on all Jews. Any person who would condone the killing of innocents is an unforgivable discredit to our people. You have told me many times that I am the same. But how? because I do not stand for the killing of children? Hamas might be a bunch of terrorist bastards, but most of the people of Palestine have been hijacked by circumstance. Your hateful words will come back to haunt you.

The fact that your ignorance allows you to think that this is no different is appalling. My grandparents, who thankfully barely survived the Holocaust, would be spitting on the ground in anger over this senseless killing.

Thank G-d you do not speak for all Jews. May he keep your family safe while you curse the heads of innocent children. You do not deserve mercy, but may you be granted it anyway.

#144
Ruvy
URL
January 5, 2009
09:46 AM

Innocents, smallsquirrel?

Any person who would condone the killing of innocents is an unforgivable discredit to our people.

Innocents? People who dance in the street when Jews die are not innocent, madame. They may be 'non-combatants' - that I'll give you. But they are not innocent. Hate flows in their hearts as sure as blood flows in yours. I seek to see terrorists die, and feel bad when non-combatants die. But, I've seen how happy and joyful Arabs in Gaza get when Jews - like you or me - die. That is not innocence.

I'm not enthusiastic about this attack on Gaza, as I do not think that the Israel government will do what it needs to do. I fear that it will throw away the lives of good Jewish kids. But I'm very happy to see lots of terrorists die and especially happy to see cell phone connections cut off in Gaza. Now the bastards can't lie about us to the media.

Also, smallsquirrel, I remind you of the gang-rape of that UN worker. That was not part of the "zionist conspiracy". That was how Arabs treat how what they view as a whore - any western woman who is alone.

#145
Anamika
January 5, 2009
10:32 AM

SS: thanks for speaking up against the fanaticism!

Ruvy: Back to your old racist fanatic tricks? The favourite racist fantasy of Nazis was also the rape of "Aryan" women by "Jewish barbarians." It is a narrative that the heirs of Nazis have used well, especially since it dovetails so well with other European racist myths about brown men mad to rape white women.

Except ALL rape is not racially driven, even in Palestinian territories. Or should we start totting up the number of Palestinian women raped and mutilated by Israeli soldiers as "sport" at checkpoints and during raids, and in Israeli prisons? Or on their way to school?

Funny how people forget that one of the reasons Hamas became so popular at the beginning was because it honoured the women who had been raped and tortured by Israelis in Israeli prisons as warriors!

Also I have enough single female friends who work as researchers, journalists, aid workers in WB and Gaza, including many Indian women, who dont feel threatened by "Arab barbarians" or have suffered any insult/injury at their hands.

The experience of Indian women is especially telling as the Arabs treat them with respect while the Israeli soldiers spit at them for being brown.

Keep spewing your propaganda for those who have no clue of the ground situation. There are enough of us to counter it even when you block independent journalists from the site of the genocide you are carrying out: Funny how even that is similar to what the Nazis pulled! Worthy heirs indeed.

#146
smallsquirrel
January 5, 2009
10:46 AM

I second what anamika has said and furthermore add that the righteous are not afraid of the truth. only people with an agenda and something to hide are afraid of open communication and start cutting off ties to the outside world. so really, it speaks ill of Israel that it is cutting off the communication of the people of Gaza. It means in your heart you know that what is happening is wrong and you're taking time to fabricate the truth.

#147
commonsense
January 5, 2009
11:18 AM

Ledzius:

""Anamika - nothing is ever permanent, not empires, businesses, technologies, etc. This has nothing to do with Karmic cycles, but just a simple law of evolution.""

Except for Ledzius and Kerty who are not subject to this "simple law of evolution" since they seem to be regressing further with each post.

Kerty's constant attempt to equate Hindutva = Hindu though, stays constant: no evolution nor regression; permanent stasis.

#148
commonsense
January 5, 2009
11:21 AM

Ruvy:

""Tariq Ali...all I can say if "poor fucker - may ass bleeds for him".

Shit! I thought you claimed you were always protecting your behind, with a gun no less. Sorry! Get some medical help before you write further.

#149
commonsense
January 5, 2009
11:24 AM

Ruvy:

""So, not only are these Arabs the true heirs of Nazism, they are ungrateful savages to boot.""

I guess some computer problems at your end, or perhaps just your "ass bleeding for Tariq Ali".

Whatever the reason, your final paragraphy "I have nothing against the Arabs or Desis. In fact I work closely with them and even invite them home for dinner" got deleted.

#150
commonsense
January 5, 2009
11:29 AM

Ruvy:


""Tariq Ali...all I can say if "poor fucker - may ass bleeds for him".

As usual, Ruvy is hiding something. If Tariq Ali is a "poor fucker" how is it that your "ass bleeds"?? As usual, you are covering up something with your racist fulmination. Instead of covering up your racist hate, do cover up your ass next time. And get some medical attention now!

#151
commonsense
January 5, 2009
11:33 AM

Sarah:

""Very happy to see Kerty still going at it with hammer and tongs and half a brain as usual""

welcome back Sarah. You are in a generous mood! "half a brain as usual"?? usually its much less.

#152
kerty
January 5, 2009
11:36 AM

Anamika #137

"History shows us that EVERY injustice takes a toll on the people who practice it who are eventually destroyed. It happened with the Nazis, and to the ancient Persians."

"You have chosen to apply my statement selectively to air your own Islamophobia and sick hatred of Muslims by saying: "Could it be that Palestinians are paying for the injustices of occupying the holy land of Jews and denying the same for thousands of years to Jews?"

You and CS raised the rhetorics which I replied in the same vain to CS, a self-confessed cynicist, in his style.

If there is any kernel of truth that Israel will be destroyed on the weight of its injustices, than same applies to Palestinians. I know you can't wait to pull out Mein Kempt when you warn not to go that slippery slope.

As for Islamophobia, I make a distinction between moslems and jehadis, Islam and jehadism, which your obscurantist labeling as Islamophobia deliberatlely chooses to blur. In stead, it presents us a world of terror and Jehadism that can not be addressed without being clobbered as Islamophobia.





#153
kerty
January 5, 2009
11:56 AM

Sarah

"Like I said, post buddy, post! I can't wait to highlight every line and throw it back in your face."

I do not post articles but I am prolific in my comments, at least for now. You can find all my comments on DC and you are welcome to pull them apart. If you can stick to the points raised in the thread, I promise to make it a lively discussion on my part.

#154
Slime_id
January 6, 2009
12:05 PM

Let me focus on the political stakes and the winners and also losers.

I met a Muslim Srilankan guy on a flight away from India who asked me how was mahool in India. I told him kya Mahool, poor Congress led UPA government will need to perform after Mumbai riots or face political vanvas for another decade.

What are the figures in Israeel doing? They are doing their best to save political capital. Hamas also is building a political future. Moderates in Islamic countries have lost the battle already as their voice is no longer heard. Look at Jordan, Abbas from Fatah, who gives a shit to them? Egypt and Iran are playing the game on their own turf regarding Muslim brotherhood.

Kerty, by being pro-Hindutva, you are taking the ship to another direction where we may lose control. That is precisely what CS, the clown, Sarah and Anamika want. They want to show the ugliness of Hinduism that will only justify Mumbai riots. Such is their creed. This is also true. If we are Secular, it is the only way to win over terror. Be Secular in your comments.
Mughal, Bajrang Dal are fake as much as Ana an Sarah. What we all know is to defeat Hamas in all its forms.

How do we win the war over terror?
a) Reduce dependency on The OIL. Think of renewables. get that oil price below 50 dollars per barrel
b) Increase Indianism among Islamic youth so that they acknowledge how free our socities are.
c) Remove hatred from your hearts and move on in Life. Being Sarah, they will always live in 1947.
d) smile _ I D( Independence Day Smile)
e) Understand the terror works and intercept them
f) Remember this is not one generation battle but a multiple generation battle where we also must not allow militant elements to arise in Hinduism. This is what Lakshar wants. They want us to become barbaric so that they can cry foul when we attack them. So much evil they are whose thoughts are exactly like Sarah.
g) Introduce legistlation and ban "Muslim madrasas" in India.
i) Any Terrorist killed in India , his/her body must not be cremated or burried but in fact used for bio-fuel!
j) Not have a Ministry for Terror management but a Ministry for terror mis-management.

Think for a while. why are terrorists killing us? Just think!

Think!
THink!

and if you know them , they want to feel defeated. It is a new war unlike cold war and the tactics is to remain secular and not unleash terror on them!

#155
commonsense
January 6, 2009
12:25 PM

Smile I-D:

"i) Any Terrorist killed in India , his/her body must not be cremated or burried but in fact used for bio-fuel!"

Ugh! You are welcome to use that fuel. Perhaps to charbroil your "political steaks", or did you mean the wooden stakes? If the latter, why would you need bio-fuel?

#156
commonsense
January 6, 2009
12:29 PM

Smile ID:

"It is a new war unlike cold war and the tactics is to remain secular"

totally agree with the "remain secular" part. but then, why this support for jihadis such as kerty? what gives Smile ID??

#157
sarah islam
URL
January 6, 2009
01:35 PM

Ruvy

You know my views. I am not an Arab or an Israeli so all I can do is comment on what I feel is going wrong. I grant you the fact that you have been living with terror and who am I to comment on it since I live so far away from where you and your family have chosen to make your home? You also know that I have spent a very long time living in Arab countries and condemn with all my heart whatever hatred or racist nonsense comes out of the mouths of men who address the congregation at prayer times. But when you say

"I don't feel sorry for the poor fuckers. They've had this coming for a long time, and they deserve it. And now our forces have knocked out the cell phones. Good!"

I can't help but wonder exactly how you are any different from a wahabi who says" Allahu Akbar! Let's kill the Jews?" Anyway, what would Israel achieve by cutting off telephone connections and not letting the foreign press in?

Slime_id

"They want to show the ugliness of Hinduism that will only justify Mumbai riots."
Correct. Thank god you finally understood! That is my point! ALL RELIGIONS are ugly not just hindusim, islam or judaism. It is silly to talk or debate about an invisible entity that was thought up some smart aleck who wanted to scare you into following him/her/them/us. Whatever. God is dead and thank god for that!

"Mughal, Bajrang Dal are fake as much as Ana an Sarah."

Hunh?

"Remove hatred from your hearts and move on in Life. Being Sarah, they will always live in 1947."

Really? I live in 1947? Okaaay that news!

Kerty:

"Instead, it presents us a world of terror and Jehadism that cannot be addressed without being clobbered as Islamophobia."

Just like talking about anything remotely negative about Israel makes us anti Semitic.




#158
kaffir
January 6, 2009
01:54 PM

Just like talking about anything remotely negative about Israel makes us anti Semitic.

Excellent analogy, Sarah. I'd add another one which you may be more familiar with and is a common tactic to deflect criticism:

"Just like talking about anything remotely negative about Islam makes us Islamophobes."

I guess your words: 'I can't help but wonder exactly how you are any different from a wahabi who says" Allahu Akbar!" ' apply to you too when you call others an Islamophobe but cry uncle when your criticism of Israel's policies is branded as anti-Semitic. Pot, say hello to kettle. :-)

OK. Carry on this interesting tamasha, cherry-picking of incidents, self-righteousness and tu-tu-mein-mein in the proxy comment war. Is there any wonder peace is so elusive?

If anyone wants some popcorn, let me know. Freshly popped and with real butter!

#159
kaffir
January 6, 2009
02:01 PM

Over all the cacophony of self-righteous Islamophobes and anti-Semites, and clinging to past grievances or God-given mandates, poor peace can hardly be heard and doesn't even stand a chance.

#160
sukhendu mukherjee
January 6, 2009
02:05 PM

I am observing this blog since last few weeks and I'm shocked that war can even be justified when one side does not have an army or air force and the other side has the most sophisticated army in the world!
And I am even more shocked that our some Indian friends are trying to justify with no logic but silly and low down comments. We are all sick of 'jihad' but when innocent people die I don't care what religion they belong to as people those died in 26/11 Taj tragedy those came from all religions. I think no body has to believe in their religion to feel sorry for them.

#161
commonsense
January 6, 2009
02:06 PM

Kaffir:

"Pot, say hello to kettle. :-"

I believe the correct spelling is Kerty. As to whether he is the same as pot or not, now that's a different kettle of fish that need not be opened at the moment. or was that a can of worms? whatever.

#162
Ruvy
URL
January 6, 2009
02:54 PM

Sarah,

What makes me diffeent from any Wahhabi is
#1 I do not envision G-d in any form as they do (that is why they are heretics to Islam), and
#2 I do not seek to see non-combatants die. I do not believe in targeting civilians. The Arab terrorists do. They have always targeted innocent civilians in so many ways - pencil bombs, blowing up school buses, bus stations, massacring those at ritual meals like Seders and weddings and beginning of month celebrations, kidnapping boats airliners, etc. etc.
#3 Finally, having seen the media distort and lie about Israel, using cell phones and the technology related to it, I am very happy to see liars unable to lie.

To be blunt, this attack on Gaza should have taken place in October 2000 when the very first Qassams were launched against Gush Qatif. The attack would have been far smaller and would have yielded far fewer casualties for Arabs, particularly non-combatants. But no prisoners should have been taken, and none should be taken now. In war, and this is war, you do not burden yourself with extra trash, and unless a terrorist can be forced to yield information, he is better dead than alive. He will not kill again, and he will not terrorize civilians again - and most important, little kids will figure out very quickly that they do not wish to be terrorists.

Delaying this attack eighty years out of fear of "international opinion" which always condemns Jews and Israel anyway, was a fatal mistake.

As for peace, it will come. The day will come when Arabs value life more than death. Then their minds will open to the possibilities that exist, and t the necessity of evicting foreign warmongers like the United States, Britain, Russia and Germany from our midst. Until then, there will be war.

#163
commonsense
January 6, 2009
03:08 PM

Ruvy:

"Finally, having seen the media distort and lie about Israel, using cell phones and the technology related to it, I am very happy to see liars unable to lie."

Yes! Lies were invented after the invention of cell-phone. Destroy the cell-phone and the era of TRUTH (from revealed holy texts such as the Quran, Bible, Torah etc) will be upon us!! It's the cell-phone, stupid!! who knew!!

#164
Anamika
January 6, 2009
03:36 PM

Sarah, and anyone else who is actually interested in something more than propaganda on the Gaza situation, esp. those much bandied about Hamas rockets:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-h-young/how-propaganda-hijacked-i_b_155355.html

#165
Ruvy
URL
January 6, 2009
03:53 PM

Sarah,

Delaying this attack eighty years

That should have been eight years, not eighty....

#166
commonsense
January 6, 2009
04:06 PM

Ruvy,

I actually agree with you. once the cell-phones are gone, no more lies.

However, what must we do with this kids' doggerel?

Liar Liar
Pants on fire
Hanging on a
Telephone wire

Hanging on a cell-phone wire??

#167
Anamika
January 6, 2009
04:06 PM

An Israeli dissident musician/novelist speaks:

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2009/01/living-on-borrowed-time-in-a-stolen-land/

#168
commonsense
January 6, 2009
04:38 PM

Good one Anamika.

I found this excerpt pretty interesting, particularly Gilad Atzmon does not realize that some folks on the fringe, reppresented well here on DC, make exactly the same kind of argument that amazes him, ie: (a short excerpt):

"Communicating with Israelis may leave one bewildered. Even now when the Israeli Air Force is practicing murder in broad daylight of hundreds of civilians, elderly persons, women and children, the Israeli people manage to convince themselves that they are the real victims in this violent saga.

Those who are familiar intimately with Israeli people realise that they are completely uninformed about the roots of the conflict that dominates their lives. Rather often Israelis manage to come up with some bizarre arguments that may make a lot of sense within the Israeli discourse, yet make no sense whatsoever outside of the Jewish street. Such an argument goes as follows: 'those Palestinians, why do they insist upon living on our land (Israel), why can't they just settle in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon or any other Arab country?' Another Hebraic pearl of wisdom sounds like this: 'what is wrong with these Palestinians? We gave them water, electricity, education and all they do is try to throw us to the sea'."

And I don't mean just the wooden automatons such as Kerty either...

#169
kerty
January 6, 2009
04:51 PM

Gilad Atzmon: "Those who are familiar intimately with Israeli people realise that they are completely uninformed about the roots of the conflict that dominates their lives."

Gilad knows what Children of Israel don't. He sounds like Moses but I am not sure where he wants to lead the children of Israel to. He sees the sea of ignorance, but he can't see Hamas or Hezbolla.

#170
Ruvy
URL
January 6, 2009
04:54 PM

Sarah,

You might wish to post this in your blog-site.

Some people have sense in their heads. This article, To my Arab brothers: The War with Israel Is Over -- and they won. Now let's finally move forward, was written 2½ years ago. Its sane advice was ignored then, and is being ignored now, thousands of Arab casualties later.

While in my eyes, terrorists deserve to die, nobody deserves to have his life cut short if he does not seek to cut short the life of others. Yet thousands of Arabs have died, many of them non-combatants in what the author calls "a rotten bill of goods -- more pain, greater corruption, and millions stolen by his relatives -- while your children played in the sewers of Gaza."

The author, Youssef M. Ibrahim, a former New York Times Middle East Correspondent and Wall Street Journal Energy Editor for 25 years, is a freelance writer based in New York City and Dubai in the United Arab Emirates.

#171
Anamika
January 6, 2009
04:57 PM

Kerty - Gilad Atzmon IS born and bred "sabra" Israeli AND a former Israeli army officer (hint: he has lived in that country a LOT longer than your friend Ruvy!)

Thanks for the laugh though.

#172
commonsense
January 6, 2009
08:34 PM

Kerty:

""Gilad knows what Children of Israel don't.""

ha ha ha! post-humour again!! Commonsense would naturally suggest that Ruvy who barely just moved to Israel, and where most people are allergic to the kahane supporters!!! Gilad on the other hand is from Israel. But when have facts or logic stopped automaton Kerty from rambling and holding forth. Yes, thanks for the laughs! I suspect this guy called Kerty just gets drunk and writes rubbish mechanically. Unlike me! I just get drunk and spread commonsense, for free!

Everyone deserves commonsense!

#173
commonsense
January 6, 2009
08:40 PM

Gilad Atzmon:

""This is exactly where Israeli escapism comes into play. Israel has passed the 'point of no return'. Its doomed fate is deeply engraved in each bomb it drops on Palestinian civilians. There is nothing Israel can do to save itself. There is no exit strategy. It can't negotiate its way out because neither the Israelis nor their leadership understand the elementary parameters involved in the conflict. Israel lacks the military power to conclude the battle. It may manage to kill Palestinian grassroots leaders, it has been doing it for years, yet Palestinian resistance and persistence is growing fierce rather than weakening. As an IDF intelligence general predicted already at the first Intifada. 'In order to win, all Palestinians have to do is to survive'. They survive and they are indeed winning.""

#174
commonsense
January 6, 2009
08:52 PM

BBC (today):

""595 people, including 195 children, have been killed since Israel began its offensive 11 days ago.""

195 children

#175
kerty
January 6, 2009
10:07 PM

Gilad: "..neither the Israelis nor their leadership understand the elementary parameters involved in the conflict."

Gilad knows what Israelies, their leadership and their army knows not.

Gilad:"'In order to win, all Palestinians have to do is to survive'. They survive and they are indeed winning.""

Gilad seems to define Israel victory as complete ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and Palestinian victory as surviving such ethnic cleansing. Never mind, it is Hamas and its Jehadi brothers that have an openly stated goal of wiping out Israel. He ascribes Israel a goal that Israel does not profess and than defines victory and defeats based on such straw man.

#176
commonsense
January 6, 2009
10:36 PM

Kerty:

""Gilad knows what Israelies, their leadership and their army knows not.

Gilad:"'In order to win, all Palestinians have to do is to survive'.""

Too much beer gets to anyone's head, so why would Kerty's non-head be immune? Gilad is quoting an army-man, an IDF general, not simply mouthing off on his own! the quote again!!

""As an IDF intelligence general predicted already at the first Intifada. 'In order to win, all Palestinians have to do is to survive'.""

and not just an army spokesman, but a general, who may well be wrong, but Gilad did not utter those words.

Gilad may or may not be in the know, but surely Prophet Kerty knows more than an IDF general and an ex-army IDF officer, ie. Gilad himself. Otherwise he wouldn't be Prophet Kerty, would he? Once more, free laughs are always available, for free naturally!

#177
kerty
January 6, 2009
11:47 PM

CS

So what do we have here? Gilad regurgating a dated quote of an unnamed IDF intelligence general at the time of first Intifada that happened during the rein of PLO in 1987? The quote probably had the specific context too, but Gilad likes to run with it like he hit upon some eternal revelation from Mt Sinai.

#178
Anamika
January 7, 2009
03:57 AM

Yep, the hole keeps getting bigger just with the level of idiocy.

Intelligence sources are NEVER named by ANY newspaper of ANY country. That particular quote can be found on Haaretz as well as JP archives because it was a high ranking official.

YES it was the first intifada - the very conditions that showed that Fatah/PLO were ineffective and brought Hamas its early credibility.

But then anything more than yesterday is too much history for Kerty and co, unless of course it is Israel (when it goes back to god) OR Islamic presence in India where each minute counts for an eternity. And then they declare others to be prejudiced! Lol...

Its time to remember an earlier prophet of Israel: Shimon Tzabar - another dissident writer - who was declared a terrorist by the British authorities as he fought for the formation of Israel in the 1940s, and then publicly declared in 1968 that Israel would fall if it did not stop occupying Palestinian land and started treating the Palestinians with justice and dignity.

Amazing how right he was. And how sad he would have been to see the not-so-slow crumbling of Israel from within today.

#179
Slime_id
January 7, 2009
06:11 AM

It gives me a lot of pain to reveal that Terrorists sleep amongst us. There are many forms of terrorism. One such was revealed as Satyam Chief "Fucker RamaLinga Raju".

Such people must also be tried under the same anti-terror laws as they unleash the same kind of FALSEHOOD.

To think of civilian casulaties not only from war but also by economic fraud is the need of the hour!

It was winter 2006 when I was called into Hotel Orchid in Mumbai. Senior Satyam HR person after visiting campus interviews like Symbiosis called on myself, a techie. I was offered whisky, gala of drinks. It was supposed to be an interview. I was not asked for my resume nothing and after two drinks given my appointment letter. Thank god, I did not join satyam but to all those who were duped. I can recollect as how SATYAM HR mongers are recruiting and promising when today all they did was to ditch the millions who showed faith in them.

Is ramalingaraju different from Lakshar? I don't think so.

#180
kerty
January 7, 2009
11:17 AM

Anamika

"YES it was the first intifada - the very conditions that showed that Fatah/PLO were ineffective and brought Hamas its early credibility."

Ineffective at what? Ineffective at wiping out Israel? Ineffective at creating a Jehadi Palestine State? What if Hamas too is made ineffective in achieving those ends? I am sure Israel would make sure of that. Than what? Don't you realize it is a no-win dead end, only meant to use Palestinians as fodder for larger politics of global Jehad? It is meant to present a humanitarian and victim face to an otherwise Global terrorist Jihad, and a rallying PR issue for the brotherhood.

#181
Anamika
January 7, 2009
11:33 AM

Ineffective at providing BASIC GOVERNANCE. They were corrupt and lined their own nests while refusing to provide basic civic services. Once again DO YOUR READING!!!!!!!

#182
kerty
January 7, 2009
11:57 AM

Anamika

That has been the tactic of Palestine movement - to showcase humanitarian disaster created by Israel's occupation. One way to make a case is to not create or allow any basic infrastructure and highlight refugee-like conditions, go around the world with pictures of suffering children to build its case. Humanitarian Propaganda has been its main weapon. Governance or looking after people has never been its priority. Why do you think Hamas is using civilians and residential areas as human shield? It knows it can not win militarily. But colateral civilian casualties gives it a trump card. Dead civilians gives it a PR victory over Israel. It gives human 'victim' face lift to terrorists.

#183
commonsense
January 7, 2009
12:57 PM

Anamika:

"Yep, the hole keeps getting bigger just with the level of idiocy."

"Hole? What hole??" exclaimed Prophet Kerty.

For us mere mortals, if we are in a hole and keep digging, we know what happens. However the law of physics do not apply to prophets. They are only for us mere lowly mortals.

#184
Ruvy
URL
January 7, 2009
12:58 PM

Ineffective at providing BASIC GOVERNANCE. They were corrupt and lined their own nests while refusing to provide basic civic services.

Anamika is so right - the PLO were corrupt bastards who lined their own nests in collaboration with Israeli politicians. That is why Hamas got elected in the first place.

And that's the bottom line reason for this offensive. The ugly truth is that the Israeli government doesn't give a shit for anybody who lives outside of Tel Aviv and environs - which is why they did nothing to stop the Hamas bombardment of the towns in Israel before and after the expulsion of the residents of Gush Qatif in 2005.

The Israeli politicians want to reëstablish the deals they had with the old corrupt PLO - even if at times the young Turks in the PLO actually want to get down to the business of killing Jews instead of trying to loot from them.

That is why "Hamas has to go".

The truth is that both of these packs of savages - nay, ALL of them - have to be killed before there can be peace of any kind here. The Arabs living in this country have to get used to the fact that we have won and they have lost.

Several things block that possibility. One is the bigotry of Israelis against Arabs and the discrimination that results thereby. Second is the lack of belief in their own cause of Israeli secular "post-zionists" - the people that Anamika idolizes so, including the treasonous Israelis - ex-pat or otherwise - who enable these terrorists to look good. The third is the interference of foreign powers who do not want a Jewish entity to exist - like the EU and the USA. Finally are those Jews unable (or unwilling) to see past today's enmities to the prophecies by Isaiah of reconciliation between the Children of Abraham.

Until these are all removed, there will continue to be blood shed at varying levels of severity.

Get used to it.

#185
commonsense
January 7, 2009
02:56 PM

Kerty:

"Gilad regurgating a dated quote of an unnamed IDF intelligence general"

Yah! As opposed to all the NAMED INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS prophet kerty lounges around with!

Did somebody say something about distinguishing between elbows and asses. Pleae don't because such truisms are meant for lowly mere mortals such as you and me. not for prophet kerty and ruvy who dwell in a prallel universe, thanks to quantum mechanics. they just visit our world once in a while to make sure that the kids are doing fine!

#186
commonsense
January 7, 2009
03:09 PM

Ruvy;

"Several things block that possibility. One is the bigotry of Israelis against Arabs and the discrimination that results thereby. Second is the lack of belief in their own cause of Israeli secular "post-zionists" - the people that Anamika idolizes so, including the treasonous Israelis - ex-pat or otherwise - who enable these terrorists to look good. The third is the interference of foreign powers who do not want a Jewish entity to exist - like the EU and the USA. Finally are those Jews unable (or unwilling) to see past today's enmities to the prophecies by Isaiah of reconciliation between the Children of Abraham."

In other words, everyobody in the world is at fault except Ruvy and his happy band of delusional kahaneites!!!

Excellent!! Ruvy, how goes it in your very own universe??

#187
Anamika
January 7, 2009
03:24 PM

Great to see the growing numbers of Israeli and diaspora Jewish scholars/writers/thinkers are reaching similar conclusions. But hey Ruvy and co "believe" better:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

#188
Ruvy
URL
January 7, 2009
03:25 PM

[baiting]

#189
kerty
January 7, 2009
04:03 PM

Anamika

"Israeli and diaspora Jewish scholars/writers/thinkers are reaching similar conclusions"

There always have been dissenting voices among Jewish. But I do not think their opinions have been persuasive in convincing other jews. Much of what Avi Shlaim writes can not stand even rudimentary scrutiny and debate. It has only propaganda value with power to convince very few.

#190
Anamika
January 7, 2009
04:50 PM

Please do provide, if you can, a synopsis of that "rudimentary scrutiny and debate" for Shlaim's article...until then, happy delusions.

#191
commonsense
January 7, 2009
05:15 PM

Anamika,

For me, Kerty the prophet is in the same category as Ruvy, as in completely unhinged, but posting to get attention. I have not been engaging directly with Kerty for quite some time. I do however see the value of not totally ingnoring his rants and ad hoc pronouncements.

#192
kerty
January 7, 2009
06:49 PM

Anamika

I have read Avi's long winded article and I found every paragraph is filled with several points that can easily be rebutted - they are simply too many points for me to go after them - it would take me hours which I have no intention of spending. However, if you present them here few at a time (which you already have been doing as many of your points are exactly what he makes in his article) and I will gladly take a shot at them. I have noticed some of his points have already been discussed here in various DC threads.

#193
commonsense
January 7, 2009
07:28 PM

Oops AN (from another thread),

Mea culpa. Apparently, prophets do read! but they don't spend hours on responding...

#194
sarah islam
URL
January 8, 2009
02:30 AM

Anamika

"On a superficial level, Israel competes in European competitions in sports and music because it desperately wants to be WESTERN. Its national identity is a WESTERN one transplanted to the Middle East.

Now imagine yourself going to Takshila. Yes, as a Hindu you will find historical resonance in the place but will that automatically be enough for a Tamilian or a Maharashtrian to LIVE that history? And build a nation on it?"

Absolutely. Wonder what causes this mass myopia and these simple facts cannot be understood?

CS:

Yes! Lies were invented after the invention of cell-phone. Destroy the cell-phone and the era of TRUTH (from revealed holy texts such as the Quran, Bible, Torah etc) will be upon us!! It's the cell-phone, stupid!! who knew!!

HAHAHA...what a comeback, CS!

Anamika thanks for this link:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-h-young/how-propaganda-hijacked-i_b_155355.html

Kerty:

"That has been the tactic of Palestine movement - to showcase humanitarian disaster created by Israel's occupation."

Kerty thanks for this gem again. Don't know where I will get my laughs if you stop posting
:-)

Ruvy:

"That is why "Hamas has to go".
Ruvy that is correct. But bombing them will only strengthen their support base. Ex sapientia modus. (out of wisdom comes meoderation).

#195
sarah islam
URL
January 8, 2009
03:09 AM

Reality check:

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

Some of you may refute this quote as Camera.org has done. Just remember that camera is a Mossad front organization.

"It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable," The spiritual leader of Israel's ultra-orthodox Shas party, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1270038.stm

Chilling how right wing jews and muslims seem to be cut from the same cloth, hmm?

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

surprised?

Some more pysochotic reminders (just remember the jehadis are also used to spewing such venom in the name of their god and their twisted ideals):

"The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, April 14, 1983.

#196
Ruvy
URL
January 8, 2009
03:20 AM

"On a superficial level, Israel competes in European competitions in sports and music because it desperately wants to be WESTERN. Its national identity is a WESTERN one transplanted to the Middle East.

Even here, in the field of sports, one must combat the lies spread by the useful idiots who hate Israel and the concepts of Judaism!

The Arabs have done all they can to prevent Israeli teams from performing in ANY venue outside of Israel. This has included attempts to prevent her from competing in Europe, refusals to perform with Israelis (and often other Jews as well) - this includes a recent riot in Turkey - and has gone as far as murdering an Olympic team in München - the work of Black September, a group of killers allied with the "moderate" "good" terrorist, Yassir Arafat. I notice AGAIN that when Jews are murdered in terror attacks, as in at München, it is skipped over, as though it were a natural event like a bee pollinating a plant - UNLESS IT HAPPENS IN INDIA.

As a football fan myself, I'd prefer that Israel play in a Middle Eastern League. Most Arab teams OUTSIDE of Israel can't play worth a damn: Israeli teams - Jewish and Arab - would be at the top of the standings all the time

#197
Ruvy
URL
January 8, 2009
04:13 AM

Sarah,


"It is forbidden to be merciful to them....."

I do not like Rav Ovadia Yosef or the SHAS Party. That political party is a pack of thieving whores who make Sefardim look bad. But here, he is stating Jewish Law. It is forbidden to be merciful to the enemy - lest they turn on you and seduce you spiritually - or turn on you and kill you. This is a general principle and does not merely apply to one particular enemy.

All the other quotes you supply are samples of the secular ruling elite of Israel. They are not merely hateful towards Arabs - they are hateful towards believing Jews. Many of these self-same politicians (with one exception) would subscribe to the view that Jews living in Judea and Samaria are a cancer on the Israeli nation that must be excised.

THE SECULAR RULING ELITE OF ISRAEL IS SUFFUSED WITH HATRED. THE "DISSIDENT" SECULAR ELITE IN ISRAEL and its ex-pat running dogs) so admired by Anamika) IS SUFFUSED WITH SELF-HATRED.

#198
Anamika
January 8, 2009
05:24 AM

Sarah,
I think the reason for the "mass myopia" is historical as well as linked to political power.

Israel was created as a European entity - it was planned in London and Paris, funded from Zurich and Amsterdam and New York, and finally when post-Holocaust, all European powers found an easy way of assuaging their own guilt as well as continuing their geo-strategic game in the ME.

Given the balance of power then (and despite the shifts even in 2009)its logical that the side the west chose to back will get more narrative mileage.

Its funny though how "subaltern" narrative insist on being heard and how they work counter to the dominant discourse. On another thread, someone mentioned that 33 states of the UN voted FOR Israel while 10 voted against including China and India which were both in throes of nation-building after a long colonial experience. UK abstained as they had already reached different conclusions as to what this state would entail (not morally, but in terms of geopolitics and money and had no stomach left for imperial enterprises). So even in 1948, the world was divided on colonial/postcolonial lines. Its a divide in opinion that continues today.

The other part is of course that US/UK/European media - print and otherwise - has far more "punching power" (to quote Rushdie) and they have pushed the "heroic-victim" narrative rooted in the Holocaust for Israel for a very long time. At the same time, there is very little room for narratives from the other side.

(Aside: you know how Waltz with Bashir has gotten mass publicity? Read "Girl Made of Dust" if you can get your hands on it - didnt get nearly as much "punching power" but absolutely exquisite and heartbreaking book about the same events from the Lebanese side).

That has meant that there is one dominant narrative and that is the pro-Israeli one, with the corollary of a moral blank cheque to Israel - that blank cheque has now gone into overdraft thanks to Israeli cupidity.

Are you surprised then at the myopia?

#199
Anamika
January 8, 2009
07:14 AM

What ELSE Israel won't tell you! But hey if Israel doesn't have to follow international law:

"There is also evidence that the rounds have injured Palestinian civilians, causing severe burns. The use of white phosphorus against civilians is prohibited under international law."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5470047.ece

#200
Ruvy
URL
January 8, 2009
07:49 AM

At least Anamika, in attempting to ignore me while countering anything I might say, has raised the level of dialogue a bit. Good!

[blathering]

#201
Ruvy
URL
January 8, 2009
08:53 AM

I found this excerpt pretty interesting, particularly Gilad Atzmon does not realize that some folks on the fringe, reppresented well here on DC, make exactly the same kind of argument that amazes him, etc. etc.....

Remarkable! One of the few comments from this poster with anything worth reading.

What all those who have consistently attacked and tried to undermine my position do not comprehend is that there are three sets of victims of the sitting Israeli regime:

The first set are the Arabs, who suffer discrimination all throughout the country. Arabs who are Israeli citizens benefit from what Indians would understand as a kind of "reservation" system - but still they suffer discrimination.

The second group of victims are the Jews, particularly those who are religious or who live in Judea and Samaria. The government tolerates incitement against them and against the faith that no others are forced to tolerate.

The third group is the bulk of the Israeli populace - who are exploited, cheated, ram-rodded and treated shoddily by the government and all of its agencies - and learning the lesson, do the same to all others here. This bulk of the populace provides a large core of discontents - and the most common discrimination they see (they shrug their shoulders at their own shoddy treatment or search for Green Cards or their equivalent) is that practiced against the Arabs: hence people like Gil'ad Atzmon and their ilk.

But the bottom line here is THE SECULAR RULING ELITE OF ISRAEL IS SUFFUSED WITH HATRED. THE "DISSIDENT" SECULAR ELITE IN ISRAEL and its ex-pat running dogs so admired by Anamika IS SUFFUSED WITH SELF-HATRED.

#202
kerty
January 8, 2009
09:43 AM

Anamika #198

The reason for myopia on both sides is that there are still people who have not come to terms with reality of Israel. These people still think Israel is illegal, an occupation, to be abolished using terrorism. Your narrative goes on and on to build that case. And than these people are bewildered by predictable Israeli response to it. The myopia is self-induced.

#203
commonsense
January 8, 2009
10:30 AM

Robert Scheer on "Moral Blindness on Gaza"

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090112/scheer3?rel=hp_picks

excerpts:

"Why are we so indifferent to the death and destruction in Gaza?

Why are we--in the media, politics and intelligentsia--so indifferent to the death and destruction in the latest phase of this interminable conflict?

Why is it that there is such widespread acceptance, beginning with the apologetic arguments of President Bush, that whatever Israel does is always justified as necessary to the survival of the Jewish state?

It is not."

EINSTEIN on Begin:

"Also, history is replete with examples of terrorists becoming statesmen, even within the early ranks of Jews fighting to establish the state of Israel. One of those was Menachem Begin, who went on to be an elected leader of the new state. But before Begin attained that respectability, back in 1948 when he visited the United States, a group of prominent Jewish intellectuals including Albert Einstein, Sidney Hook and Hannah Arendt wrote a letter to The New York Times warning that Begin was a former leader of the "Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine." The letter urged Jews to shun Begin, arguing, "It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents."

Begin's new party was then participating in the Israeli election, and Einstein and his colleagues, many of whom like the physicist had been victims of German fascism, stated, "Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character."

"Clearly Begin and his political heirs, who include Benjamin Netanyahu, the most likely victor in the next Israeli election, evolved in their behavior. But I bring it up now to highlight the one-sided reporting of the current phase of this interminable conflict and to wonder: Where are the voices that reflect the uncompromising morality of Einstein's generation of Jewish intellectuals willing to acknowledge fault and humanity on both sides of the political equation?"

#204
commonsense
January 8, 2009
10:35 AM

guido,

pssst, have some time to read??

Robert Scheer, "The Pornography of Power: How Defense Hawks Hijacked 9/11 and Weakened America". New York.

#205
Ruvy
URL
January 8, 2009
11:02 AM

Einsrein should have stuck to physics. Even as a physicist, he made serious errors because he was unwilling to stick to his guns and go where "the force" took him. He threw in a "fudge factor" to make his equations work - a mistake he bitterly repented of as an old man.

Robert Scheer drags out Einstein to use his name try to besmirch the name of a real hero of the Jewish people, MenaHem Begin - and then, using the tricks common to scummy people like him, goes on to attempt use the first insult to a real hero, to besmirch someone who is far less than a hero, a well heeled cheater like Bibi Netantyahu.

Without wasting further time on Netanyahu, let's get back to Scheer. Who the fuck is he to talk of honesty? If he was honest, he would be screaming at the top of his lungs that the leaders of Israel are traitors for having abandoned south Lebanon and Guzh Qatif! Rockets hit the north today, hitting Shlomi, because Ehud (the lemon) Barak ran away from south Lebanon in 2000.

NO.

Scheer is just another ghetto kike who can't handle the essential truth that if you do not kill your enemies, they will kill you. America is full of such ghetto kikes who delude themselves in similar fashion. They are like fat cows ready for the slaughter. I hope History is not as mean to them as she was to the ghetto kikes in Europe 70 years ago. Einstein, by the way, was lucky. He escaped being one of them.

#206
Anamika
January 8, 2009
11:02 AM

CS: Who cares what some "brilliant physicist" and that too that long ago has to say? ;-)

#207
Anamika
January 8, 2009
11:10 AM

Just in case we missed it, UN aid convoys also count as "terrorists" according to Israel:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5476074.ece

#208
kerty
January 8, 2009
11:16 AM

Robert Scheer:"Where are the voices that reflect the uncompromising morality of Einstein's generation of Jewish intellectuals willing to acknowledge fault and humanity on both sides of the political equation?""

First of all, Einstein was a famed scientist. That does not make his opinion necessarily an expert on all other subjects.

Has Robert dealt with both sides of political equations in his article? No. He has chosen sides, like everybody else on this issue. And quite frankly, when it comes to Jehad and terrorism, one has to choose sides - either you are against terrorists or you are with terrorists. When it comes to question of existence of Israel, either you are for it or against it. Even if one claims to be for both Israel and Palestine - they owe it to reject terrorist organizations and positions that seek to deny Israel a right of self-defense against them.

#209
Ruvy
URL
January 8, 2009
11:21 AM

Fro once, Anamika has got it right! UN convoys are terrorist convoys. The UN employs Arabs, and these Arabs are generally sympathetic to the terrorists who kill Jews in Israel. We have known this about the UN for a long time. Often, I'd aim my rifle on patrol (in Jerusalem) at the UN flag at Armon haNetziv. It made a great target I would have loved to fire on it, and on the radio tower the UN has that blocks radio transmissions to us lesser Jewish human beings living there.

#210
Slime_id
January 8, 2009
11:29 AM

Ruvy,

Can't agree with u , UN is the biggest pimpmaster of all. See Dafur, Rawanda, Somalia have been raped for years and they have the balls to collect money for genocide! Same for earhquake reliefs and yes now they even runaway from Gaza. The real pimp is the UN.

#211
kerty
January 8, 2009
11:48 AM

Anamika

UN can not inject itself unilaterally in the war zone uninvited by Israel. If UN has any role to play while this war is going on, it has to be worked out with Israel and among security council members.

#212
Ruvy
URL
January 8, 2009
11:52 AM

Slime_id,

Can't agree with u

Considering what I've read here, I can deal with that kind of disagreement. So is the UN a bigger bunch of pimps or a bigger pack of terrorists?

#213
Anamika
January 8, 2009
12:01 PM

Ignorance meets hubris meets fanaticism: the three make for great bedfellows. Enjoy each other, boys.

Meanwhile, for the record:

"But then there's an offer on the table that could overarch and even subsume the basic Palestinian-Israeli discord and that is the Arab League proposal to offer Israel recognition by the whole Arab world in exchange for an Israeli withdrawal to the pre-1967 borders.

First authored by Saudi Arabia in 2002 and revived last year, the Arab peace Initiative has the support of all 22 members of the Arab League and the tacit acceptance of both Hamas and Iran. It would mean the dismantlement of the settlements and the destruction of the security fence. It would involve sharing Jerusalem. There would still be problems of the right to return. But it would finally force Israel and Hamas, Hizbollah and Iran, to put up or shut up over their intentions for peace.

There it is, in black and white, a deal that could break the pattern of Middle East conflict and satisfy Israel's every concern for security if only someone was brave enough to pick it up."

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/adrian-hamilton/adrian-hamilton-the-path-to-middle-east-peace-1231918.html

#214
Slime_id
January 8, 2009
12:05 PM

rom that IP:

* "slime_id" has posted 21 comments
* "Indian_man" has posted 3 comments
* "I_M" has posted 2 comments
* "SNJY2" has posted 1 comments
* "IM" has posted 1 comments
* "Chaudhary" has posted 1 comments
* "Men_rights" has posted 1 comments

#215
Slime_id
January 8, 2009
12:23 PM

rom that IP:

* "slime_id" has posted 21 comments
* "Indian_man" has posted 3 comments
* "I_M" has posted 2 comments
* "SNJY2" has posted 1 comments
* "IM" has posted 1 comments
* "Chaudhary" has posted 1 comments
* "Men_rights" has posted 1 comments

#216
commonsense
January 8, 2009
12:36 PM

From Neve Gordon, Professor of Politics (not Physics!) at Ben-Gurion University, Israel.

"Israel's New War Ethic"

Excerpt:

"Thus, despite the ever-increasing loss of life in the Gaza Strip, Israel remains the perpetual victim.

There is something extremely cynical about how Israel explains its use of humanitarian assistance, and yet such unadulterated explanations actually help uncover an important facet of postmodern warfare. Not unlike raising animals for slaughter on a farm, the Israeli government maintains that it is providing Palestinians with assistance so that it can have a free hand in attacking them. And just as Israel provides basic foodstuff to Palestinians while it continues shooting them, it informs Palestinians--by phone, no less--that they must evacuate their homes before F-16 fighter jets begin bombing them."

Full article here:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090112/gordon?rel=hp_currently

#217
commonsense
January 8, 2009
12:41 PM

Anamika:

"Ignorance meets hubris meets fanaticism: the three make for great bedfellows. Enjoy each other, boys."

and do post a youtube clip of you enjoying each other in bed! kerty can hold the camera, since he is quite obviously not into "sexual anarchy". but who knows? given their track record here, i am sure they will perform better as bedfellows.

#218
Slime_id
January 8, 2009
12:59 PM

From that IP:

* "slime_id" has posted 21 comments
* "Indian_man" has posted 3 comments
* "I_M" has posted 2 comments
* "SNJY2" has posted 1 comments
* "IM" has posted 1 comments
* "Chaudhary" has posted 1 comments
* "Men_rights" has posted 1 comments

#219
Anamika
January 8, 2009
01:07 PM

Canadian Eva Bartlett's blog from inside Gaza documenting the depradation brought by Israeli actions since July 2008:

http://ingaza.wordpress.com/

#220
kerty
January 8, 2009
01:18 PM

Jessica Cohen:"The fact that Israel pulled its army out of Gaza and even removed 8,000 settlers in 2005 does not alter the fact that Gaza is still, practically and according to international law, occupied territory. Israel controls the entrances and exits, as well as access to necessities such as power and water."

Giving autonomy gradually based on good behaviour is a wise policy for Israel. Gaza already got the the land, and rest of can follow based on how well Palestinians use whatever autonomy they already have. If they choose to use them to stage organizations like Hamas to wage proxy wars, naturally Israel would delay the transition and crack down instead. Imagine the scale of wars for Israel if Hamas had its own state with robust economic and military might. Israel would be foolish to repeat the same mistakes that India made - India gave Jehadis their own state which predictably pursued the Jehadi agenda of creating parity of power with India using military and terrorist means, while India is left with no leverage or options over Pakistan. India can not address even the issue of cross-border terrorism with Pakistan. That is what happens when you allow Jehadism to gain statehood and military powers - they still do not renounce terrorism because that feel they need it create balance of terror!

#221
Anamika
January 8, 2009
05:34 PM

"Nobody can reject or condemn the revolt of a people that has been suffering under military occupation for 45 years against occupation force," said General Shlomo Gazit, former chief of Israeli military intelligence, in 1993."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/30/gaza-hamas-palestinians-israel1

#222
commonsense
January 8, 2009
08:44 PM

What other news organizations are not telling you while parroting the lies. CNN (of all the news organizations!) confirms that Israel actually broke the ceasefire agreement. Watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

#223
kerty
January 8, 2009
11:24 PM

CS

"What other news organizations are not telling you while parroting the lies. CNN (of all the news organizations!) confirms that Israel actually broke the ceasefire agreement."

Cease-fire is not worth a piece of paper if Hamas engages in activities that breaches Israel's security. Israel reserves the right to void such ceasefire.

#224
Anamika
January 9, 2009
04:21 AM

CS, Ceasefire has been broken by Israelis repeatedly during its duration. The worst breach was during attacks on Gaza in November 2008. Hamas - whatever else you say - are seriously disciplined and that attempt failed. CNN is finally trying to retrieve whatever it can of its journalistic credentials.

Btw, on the Rachel Maddow show, the CNBC correpondent in Israel explained what an Israeli defense officer had told him: (paraphrase here): the attacks have been timed well and and will continue for a few days more. Israel knows that no matter how much noise it makes, in a few days, with the inauguration coverage, no one in the western press will care about Gaza." (The clip is no longer on the website but may be available elsewhere from within US).

#225
Anamika
January 9, 2009
04:24 AM

CS, Ceasefire has been broken by Israelis repeatedly during its duration. The worst breach was during attacks on Gaza in November 2008. Hamas - whatever else you say - are seriously disciplined and that attempt failed. CNN is finally trying to retrieve whatever it can of its journalistic credentials.

Btw, on the Rachel Maddow show, the CNBC correpondent in Israel explained what an Israeli defense officer had told him: (paraphrase here): the attacks have been timed well and and will continue for a few days more. Israel knows that no matter how much noise it makes, in a few days, with the inauguration coverage, no one in the western press will care about Gaza." (The clip is no longer on the website but may be available elsewhere from within US).

#226
soomro
January 9, 2009
08:09 AM

the israelians will not negotiate with hamas or any Palestinian leadership because they have disproportionate power. you only sit on TALKS when the other party has something to bargain.

im being very objective here.... why would people be sad if Iran or Hezbollah supports hamas against the israelians....afterall its war now !!!

#227
commonsense
January 9, 2009
09:36 AM

Wallace Shawn, in _The Nation_

"it is disgraceful and vile and no favor to the Jews for American politicians--for narrow, short-term political advantage, for narrow, short-term global-strategic reasons and, yes, also in expiation of the residual guilt they feel over what happened to the Jews in the past--to pander to the irrationality of the most irrational Jews.

Actions based on irrational premises inevitably fail in their purposes--they fail, and if the premises don't change, then the actions are inevitably repeated, in forms which are more and more grotesque. It is unbearable to think that the new American administration would begin with more American dollars being poured into what is unjustifiable. It is also unbearable to think that among the first words we would hear from our new, clearly rational president would be preposterous sentences trying to persuade us that Israeli policies which seem to be appalling are actually quite normal and acceptable. Certainly nothing our new president could do would be of greater value to the world--and greater value to the Jews--than to abruptly end the sickeningly patronizing habit of supporting an irrationality which was born in tragedy and will end in more tragedy."

#228
sarah islam
URL
January 9, 2009
11:48 AM


I think it is high time that the world tells Israel to stop the war. Too many people have died and I don't think any nation deserves to be subjected to this:

http://www.groundreport.com/Opinion/Israel-is-using-White-Phosphorus-bombs-in-Gaza-str_2

This is genocide and it is happening now. That's all.

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