OPINION

A View from Pakistan: I Am a Mumbaikar Today

November 28, 2008
Adil Najam

I, too, am a Mumbaikar today.

I wish I could reach out and for just one moment hold the hands of the woman in this AP photograph. Maybe shed some tears on her shoulder. But I do not know what I would say to her. I do not think she would want me to say much. The expression on her face matches the feeling I have at the pit of my stomach and in the depth of my heart. I think - I hope - that she would understand how I feel. I can only imagine what she is going through.

And so, in prayer and in solidarity, I stand today with Mumbaikars everywhere. In shock at what has happened. In fear of what might happen yet. In anger at those who would be so calculated in their inhuman massacre. In sympathy with those whose pain so hurts my own heart but whose tears I cannot touch, whose wounds I cannot heal, and whose grief I cannot relieve.

The solidarity I feel with Mumbaikars is deep and personal.

The first time I ever visited the Taj Mahal Hotel was with my wife. We had been married just weeks and were not staying at the Taj but went to the historic “Sea Lounge” at the hotel for tea and snacks during a short visit to Mumbai. We went to the Oberoi Hotel the same visit in the naive and mistaken belief that we would find Bollywood bigwigs hanging out there. In later years I would come back and stay at the old wing of the Taj - down the corridor from where Ruttie Bai Jinnah and stayed - I would even present in the grand ballroom whose pillars, supposedly, had been brought from her father’s estate. Each time I passed through Victoria Terminus I stood in awe of the pace as well as its presence. In awe of the architectural structure, but also of the sea of humanity around me. I cannot hear of terrorists attacking these places without my own muscles twitching in anger.

But my feeling of solidarity with Mumbaikars is much much more personal than these few fleeting visits over many years. Deeply etched into me are the horrific echoes of 9/11 in New York and the string of terrorist attacks on Islamabad, Karachi, Lahore, Quetta, Peshawar and all over Pakistan whose reports have become all too familiar - but never bearable - on this blog. I know what living with terror feels like. I have thought too much and too deeply about what it feels like to be the target of violence propelled by hatred. I know the pain of helplessness one feels as one stands stunned in grief, wanting so desperately to do something - anything - but not knowing what to do. This is why I identify with the expression on the face of the woman in this picture. This is why, like so many others in the world, today I too am a Mumbaikar.

This is why I stand with Mumbaikars everywhere, in prayer and in solidarity. At a loss for words but with an urge to speak out. My words of condemnation will not change the actions of those who have committed such heinous murder and mayhem. Nor will my words of sympathy diminish the agony of the victims. But speak out I must. In condemnation as well as in sympathy. To speak against the inhumanity of hatred and violence. To speak for the humanity in all of us that we all must hold on to; especially in the testing moments of grave stress.

But, today, I have no words of analysis. What words can make sense of the patently senseless? I do not know who did this. Nor can I imagine any cause that would justify this. But this I know: No matter who did this, no matter why, the terror that has been wrought in Mumbai is vile and inhuman and unjustifiable. And, for the sake of our own humanness, we must speak out against it.

And, so, to any Mumbaikar who might be listening, I say: “I stand with you today. In prayer and in solidarity.”

 

Adil Najam is the Founding Editor of the blog Pakistaniat.com
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A View from Pakistan: I Am a Mumbaikar Today

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Author: Adil Najam

 

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#1
Aaman
URL
November 28, 2008
02:52 PM

Thank you for these heartfelt thoughts - there are truly no borders to tragedy and to humanity

#2
chitrakut
November 28, 2008
03:35 PM

The show of support is useless if the author believes the RSS and BJP are communal organizations. The true colors of such people only come out when discussing true india patriots like the RSS.

Having said that, the congress government was always a disaster. The people of India truely are to be blamed for the predicament they are in. I did not understand then how the congress could ever have been voted to power given its weakness in internal security matters.

I am losing hope that the people of india can be trusted to do the right thing.

#3
kerty
November 28, 2008
04:09 PM

Adil

Thanks for expressing solidarity with the victims of terrorism. I hope there are more people like you in Pakistan and India so that there can more than cosmetic changes in bi-lateral relations. People of Afghanistan, Paksitan and India have common stakes in combating terrorism, and for that happen, people have to connect like you have.

Chitrakut:

Cynicism aimed at the author is uncalled for and not gracious. Sure there are reasons for scaptisim and cynicism, and one must not get carried away by false spirit of outrage and solidarity, however, we should not shut the doors to genuine spirit of solidarity. You will need those saner Pakistanis and those wiser Congress campers to have lasting solutions to terrorism that has been hurting pakistanis and Indians alike.

#4
Chandra
November 28, 2008
07:39 PM

No thanks...my dear Pakistani friend. Pakistani sympathy is the last thing we need. You must be ashamed of what your countrymen have been doing for the last so many years in India. This year, the ISI killed numerous innocent Afganistanis at Kabul (Just because you wanted to get even with us). As we wait for the results of this investigation, invariably we will end up with a link with Pakistan.
I remember the 1999 kargil invasion. For weeks, Pakistanis and western media were trying to persuade us that these were indigenous elements, just like they are trying to do now. What happened at the end? NS meets Clinton and suddenly everything ends....Let us not delude ourselves, accept the truth that elements of Pakistan are involved and try doing something about it. As much as I hate our current Govt I accept that ratchetting the tension with Pakistan is not a good thing. That much we will give....

#5
Aditi
November 28, 2008
08:06 PM

chandra: frankly, it does not strike me as sympathy. it seems more like empathy; as human beings, empathy is one of the most fundamental responses we should feel towards other people's pain. Also, it is high time we separate the political agendas and extremist agendas from those of the average people in any given nation. Families, common people, the hardworking citizens of every country want peace, opportunities and a good life, for themselves and for their children. they don't want wars and terrorist attacks and city bandhs. unfortunately, this common man is struggling so hard to achieve his personal goals that he has no time to make sure that his nation's motives match his own. but the only way we can come out victorious is by not letting people's vested agendas drive our own faith in people and disrupt our attempts to reach out across borders. that may be precisely what these terrorists want.

I believe that relations b/w Pakistan and India are heading in a good direction and a terrorist attack should not deter these efforts. I hope more Pakistani citizens make their voices heard like Adil here has.

Adil, as someone from Mumbai, I thank you for your words and your solidarity with the people of Mumbai in this difficult time.

#6
Sam
November 28, 2008
08:32 PM

Mr Adil,

It is not Victoria Terminus. It is Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus. Desis in present Bharat call it and know it as Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus.
My earnest suggestion to you would be that if you are trying to sympathize with a situation you may want to know a little more about the people of India, its places and always always address people by their correct names and correct names of places that are dear to them and significant. That's the least you can do as a 'blogger' , editor etc.


Like a typical Indian, I welcome you and your thoughts with open arms and hope you would not just write 'nice' words but rather do something, some research. Maybe rise above 'another blogger on the block' and instead report terrorist activities from your country and tip our Indian security agents off who have failed so miserably.
We would like Pakistanis to write on their blogs of any terrorist activities or threats they anticipate. After you live where all the action is.....
Hundreds of innocent people including police officials have been killed....how about commemorating them on your blog and better still doing something constructive for their families? Provided your fellow staunch Pakistanis don't mind it, don't think you are a traitor and don't create trouble for you.
After all, we are so grateful that we have your sympathies, our life depends on it, and we don't want to create any trouble for you

#7
Sam
November 28, 2008
08:37 PM

Tragedies or terrorist events when take place across the border or in another country or across the border, makes a difference, big difference because unless it doesn't happen to you, you don't know how it feels. It is very easy to be humane and sensitive but ask those people who've lost family members ...they truly don't need any sensitivity or humanity, when they lost family forever....

Ideal situation: Display of humanity and sensitivity must exist in everyone in every human being on the border, across from the border, other side of the border...if it does, then such terrorist acts will automatically cease to exist and then tragedies will not happen.

#8
Sam
November 28, 2008
08:39 PM

More food for thought for you:

The terrorist activities that happen in Pakistan are result of Pakistanis themselves who are unhappy with their government; it's an internal matter and no outside help can resolve that but for Pakistanis to sort out their problem on their own.

BUT whereas the terrorist activities that take place in India, is because of another set of sadistic Pakistanis...who terrorize us.

Maybe you can find out what's the reason behind such sadistic attitude. We would really love to help...

Thank you in advance for any help you can offer brother!


#9
Aditi
November 28, 2008
08:53 PM

Sam: I call it VT...I grew up in Mumbai knowing it as VT. And I will continue to call it VT. When I visit Mumbai (Bombay), I walk upto the ticket counter and say "Ek VT return" and get what I want. Nobody asks me to say "CST". I will not let politically motivated bullshit drive my own actions and change the way I remember my favorite places in good ol' Bombay. Real Bombayites/ Mumbaikars always refer to these places with their old English names. The theory is, whats in a name. A rose by any other name, smells just as sweet.

And also, you are asking Adil to tip Indian security officials about terrorist activity? How old are you? Do you think terrorists sit around at a dhaba, draw maps, inform all other Pakistanis about the plot and then come to Mumbai with guns and grenades? Is that your idea of "terrorist attacks"?:))

The only reason I want to believe in God anymore is so I can ask him how he managed to make so many fools.

#10
commonsense
November 28, 2008
09:00 PM

Chandra:

"Pakistani sympathy is the last thing we need. You must be ashamed of what your countrymen have been doing for the last so many years in India."

Adil, on behalf of all those indians who understand your feelings of empathy, disgust and revulsion, I apologies to you for Chandra's response to your touching piece. Trust me Adil, the likes of him are in a minority. Most of us are level headed and we realize that on both sides of the divide, such sane people with commonsense, are in a majority, even though it appears otherwise on the surface since the most volatile hotheads usually grab all the attention. I thank you for your piece.

#11
Chitrakut
November 28, 2008
09:22 PM

Chandra's concerns are perfectly valid. Pakistan is a state that should never have been created. It is an artificial country. The only thing that unites all people of pakistan is their hatred of India and its Hindus. You cannot run a country on such foundations.

Pakistan needs fundamental change if it wants to survive. It is not for nothing that the country is bankprupt and had to beg the IMF for a loan.

PAKISTAN NEEDS FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE. And maybe a BJP government in India may help it achieve that.

Aditi: You have been watching too much TV and too much NDTV or CNN-IBN. Get real. The India of tommorow is not going to be the India you are dreaming about. Macaulayite people like you are not going to control the destiny of India.

#12
Aditi
November 28, 2008
09:41 PM

Sorry to disappoint you chitrakut, don't watch any of those. I'm not in India so don't have that luxury.

But honestly, you haven't really picked apart any of what I said and just basically for lack of better logical argument clubbed my views under "macaulayite" :) its not surprising that you would tag me with a label considering you have taken a whole nation and and decided you know what unites them, what their values are founded on. I have some labels for you too: your views are superficial, immature , prejudiced and reactionary at best. Maybe you should watch more TV. :) it will help calm your nerves and improve your world-view.

#13
Sam
November 28, 2008
10:32 PM


Aditi,

Firstly calm down, take a deep breadth and chill.

Real Bombayites/ Mumbaikars always etc.....what's your point? Why so many words, speak to the point? What's so political about it? Why blame a political situation when you cannot express yourself. Majority of the world know Mumbai as Mumbai...if you cannot express it, that's your problem. Even a dumb immune person can demand a ticket from any railway station in Mumbai and get to their destination. So much for your 'VT return ticket'

A rose can smell, the way it wants but we NOW call it a rose. Period. Do you know it by any other name?

You seem to know a lot more about terrorist activities and where they occur? Don't beat your pea sized brain on what I think...if you think they happen in dhabas or draw maps using crayons--this is your arsine idea. From your sarcasm and derision tone, it seems to me you think terrorist activities is the job of a genius , a job of those masterminds who have a high end 7 digit salary and who do not sit in dhabas but dine only in Alain Ducasse au Plaza Athénée or stay in Burj Al Arab's Royal Suite!!
Jeez...let me think where you pulled that from? Ahhhh...do you judge the class of terrorists by the places they choose to attack....in this case The Taj and Oberoi being the most expensive hotels in mumbai, so that's where the terrorists hatched this plan..ehhh??

So where was the 9/11 plan hatched?? In cyber space? And now let me guess what cyber space means for you....Afghanistan?

OR

Since you think so highly of terrorists that they are an intellectual bunch, their terrorist plans something you admire, know all about them and their high end life style, their itinerary, do you think Adil cannot match that?

Let Adil speak for himself and I believe and hope he does that.
He doesn't need a female whose been ranting whimpering about discrimination happening on US news channels. How paltry and inconsequential! Grow up or take a chill pill!



#14
Sam
November 28, 2008
10:40 PM

One doesn't have to be India to have the luxury to watch NDTV or CNN-IBN.
Satellite services can provide you any channel you desire to have.

#15
kaffir
November 28, 2008
10:40 PM

No matter who did this, no matter why, the terror that has been wrought in Mumbai is vile and inhuman and unjustifiable. And, for the sake of our own humanness, we must speak out against it.

Adil, thank you for speaking out against this cowardly act. We need more sane voices like yours criticizing such acts as well as taking action at your end to prevent such acts in future.

#16
kaffir
November 28, 2008
10:54 PM

CST or VT - call it what's sweetest to you. Just don't expect or force others to do the same. Let them also choose whatever name they want to call it by.

#17
Aditi
URL
November 28, 2008
11:09 PM

Sam: If insulting my intelligence and taking shots at me is your idea of a discussion, I'm sorry, I won't engage you any further. All my "pea sized" brain does know is that if a nation's intelligence and security officials weren't able to predict this attack, I don't think that Adil would've been able to act as an informant on this one :)

As one of the editors here, I could edit out your personal attacks against me as is our policy, but I am going to leave them there are an example of how people resort to aggression when they can communicate. It fits well in a discussion about terrorism.

#18
Sam
November 28, 2008
11:25 PM

Aditi,


Thank you for letting me know that you are the editor and deviously threatening that you can edit/delete my comments. Better still, let the readers read what you've written( rater threatened) and know your high handedness stance. (on a lighter note, you sound like the junior college kiddo who childishly rants in college..."kya tum jaante nahi mera baap ek minister hai aur is college ko bahut donation theta hai"

In fact, I throw an open challenge to all the non editors to pick a quote from my comments that implies an attack on you. I am up for it....

When people have nothing to say or are speechless they resort to threats like the way you did. I am glad that one comment of mine, lead you to such an undignified retort 


I hope God has answers your prayers.

#19
Sam
November 28, 2008
11:29 PM

Aditi,


Thank you for letting me know that you are the editor and deviously threatening that you can edit/delete my comments. Better still, let the readers read what you've written( rater threatened) and know your high handedness stance. (on a lighter note, you sound like the junior college kiddo who childishly rants in college..."kya tum jaante nahi mera baap ek minister hai aur is college ko bahut donation theta hai"

In fact, I throw an open challenge to all the non editors to pick a quote from my comments that implies an attack on you. I am up for it....

When people have nothing to say or are speechless they resort to threats like the way you did. I am glad that one comment of mine, lead you to such an undignified retort :)))


I hope God has answers your prayers.

#20
Sam
November 28, 2008
11:30 PM

Upate from AajTak:
Azam Amir 21 year old young man who was captured while leashing his terrorist act in central Mumbai. While interrogating he has confessed he is a resident from our neighboring country Pakistan. He's disclosed the name of his fellow jihadis : Abu Ali, Omar Ali, Abdul Rahman Shoaib, Umeir, Abu, Ismail Omar, Fahad Ali....

How can a 21 year old be called a terrorist? What went wrong with him that compelled him to do this? Only to be called a Jehadi and in a hope to achieve Heaven?

#21
SD
November 29, 2008
12:02 AM

Sam

Commenting on other people's brain size is not a personal attack?

and this is just disgraceful:

"He doesn't need a female whose been ranting whimpering about discrimination happening on US news channels"

I have yet to read this "ranting and whimpering"! And "female"?!! Do you think all "females" rant & whimper Sam? I guess being literate is not the same as being educated.

Why ask yourself how a young man can resort to violence when you cannot maintain civility in your own interactions over the internet.

If these terrorists are just some idiots without a clear plan and sophisticated machinery then that makes the Indian intelligence officials look like real dumb asses cause they didn't see this coming.

And pls spare me a rant and the sexist name calling.

#22
Sam
November 29, 2008
12:38 AM

SD,

Yes the Indian intelligence officials have failed pathetically, the system has come down disastrously. If this is not accepted, then there will never be a learning process of adopting better methods to curtail this from happening in the future.
( however, I would never call them asses, the way you have done).

Terrorists are terrorists...I don't know about them being idiots or not. You judge that.

Kindly read Aditi's # 17 where she evidently and deviously has made a threat to edit my comment. If she feels I've made an attack on her, then delete the damn comment. Make a decision, take a stand and do the job of an editor, but why resort to juvenile rant and domineering stance.

This is my last take on Aditi's comment.....her followers and admirers can take it up from here.

#23
Indian_man
November 29, 2008
12:58 AM

Pakistanis are responsible for this attack and any sympathy from Pakis is not accepted until u accept that ur brothers did it!

Adil, be a man and accept that Pakistanis have carried this attack. Once you accept it, you can be a true Muslim or I treat u as an infidel!

#24
Ledzius
November 29, 2008
02:00 AM

Indian_man, unfortunately the political liberal leftist viewpoint has infiltrated Indian opinion so much that it is sinful to call a spade a spade anymore. Thus, in spite of very glaring evidences of Pakistan govt's involvement in a number of Indian terror attacks, any mention of Pakistan in connection with these incidents would immediately bring about scorn and accusations of communalism from the liberal intelligentsia.

The Mumbai cocktail circuit is a big part of this ruse. You would find an over-representation of "liberal" Muslims in this group. Of course, it is common knowledge that the entertainment industry has close links with the underworld (which again comprises Muslims for the most part) and will always do the latter's bidding. Even given the fact that many prominent Bollywood actors have had links with prominent mafia dons and have even played a part in past terror attacks would not prevent them from acting in movies that become box office hits. Many Hindu Indians are whores would would willingly sleep with the enemy (literally and figuratively). The women go "cho chweet" over such criminals.

There is no use blaming politicians. As long as the populace keeps buying into this ruse, and refuse to see those heroes as actually criminals, nothing's ever going to change.







#25
Ledzius
November 29, 2008
02:48 AM

I wouldn't be too surprised if the D-company has cut a three-way deal with both Pakistan and top politicians in the Indian establishment. In fact, even media houses like the TOI might be party to this.

Now that the ISI chief is going to visit Manmohan Singh, let's see if extradition of Dawood Ibrahim is part of the agenda, or is even brought to public attention by any of the major newspapers. I doubt it will be. They probably will keep quiet because they must have been paid off.


#26
GB
November 29, 2008
04:38 AM

CS: "Adil, on behalf of all those indians who understand your feelings of empathy, disgust and revulsion, I apologies to you for Chandra's response to your touching piece."
Yes ADil, I too agree with my friend CS. This Chandra is a hypertension guy who releases all the tension from his consultant job on this website!!!( he won't even like CS representing all Indians, but ignore him)

#27
Indrani Bose
November 29, 2008
09:12 AM

I got goose bumps whilst reading this blog and read it out to my frnds & family members, thanks for your thoughts....pains knows no boundaries....it shows, peace is the only answer to such mindless, inhumane acts.
thnx
Indrani

#28
GB
November 29, 2008
11:08 AM

Wonderful Indrani, Thanks for your support

#29
commonsense
November 29, 2008
11:24 AM

Adil,

Thanks once more for your empathy and courage to write this piece. Be prepared for more rude responses to your views. Some of those who are hurling abuse at you (instead of the terrorists) are simply shell-shocked, as most of us are, at the envents and are simply venting or releasing hypetension, as GB points out. Others are trying to capitalize on this tragedy for their own political, sectarian, communal ends that will compound such problems further. Most humans, whether Indian, Pakistani or Martian realize that that together with more security, better intelligence etc. we need cooler heads to prevail, and that terrorists who are self-proclaimed thekedaars of particular communities, religious or national etc. are literally thekedaars of dead-ends only.

#30
Chandra
November 29, 2008
11:25 AM

Adil

I repeat again. You are not a Mumbaikar and we donot want your sympathy or whatever they call it these days. We are raging here and waiting to hear from your jokers in the ISI. Why dont you show us some empathy by handing over Salauddin and Dawood Ibrahim.....That will help....Also, can you contact the family members of the bastard we caught here in Mumbai? I believe he is from Faridkot.....

#31
Chandra
November 29, 2008
11:32 AM

Chitrakut 11

Well said! The losers who watch IBN and NDTV have brought us to where we are today. We get hit by terrorists and what do they do...they light candles....Those terrorists must be laughing their ass of...Those same set of losers are prevalent on this board. One emotional pakistani posted here to show love and all these dopes go to embrace him. Such impractical bufoons is why we are where we are.....I am not suggesting we bomb Pakistan or kill muslims in the country but please donot get so sanguine about Pakistan.....

#32
Chandra
November 29, 2008
11:36 AM

CS-10

Sweetheart, stop pretending to be an Indian.

#33
commonsense
November 29, 2008
11:51 AM

Chandra,

Since you are in Mumbai at the moment, I can empathise with how distraught you must be, especially when others at such long distances away from the site of the horror have literally been sick in our stomachs.

#34
commonsense
November 29, 2008
11:51 AM

Chandra,

Since you are in Mumbai at the moment, I can empathise with how distraught you must be, especially when others like us at such long distances away from the site of the horror have literally been sick in our stomachs.

#35
commonsense
November 29, 2008
11:56 AM

Chandra,

Even though you may not need my empathy, i have no choice, as a human, to empathize. As they say, just hang in there. Trauma is not a fantasy concept cooked up by some crazy psychiatrist. I am traumatized, even though I am far from the scene of the horror. I can well imagine how you must feel.

#36
Chandra
November 29, 2008
12:14 PM

CS

You empathising with us is like you shagging a dog, neither of you can feel good about it..

#37
kerty
November 29, 2008
12:27 PM

Pak takes U-turn, not to send ISI chief to India
PTI | Islamabad

"Hours after agreeing to send ISI chief to India to "cooperate" in investigations into the Mumbai terror strikes, the Pakistan government on Saturday did a U-turn apparently under pressure from the powerful army and decided to depute a senior official of the spy agency.

The decision to backtrack was taken at a special meeting attended by President Asif Ali Zardari, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani and army chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani that spilled well into the wee hours."

Full article
http://www.dailypioneer.com/137728/Pak-takes-U-turn-not-to-send-ISI-chief-to-India.html

#38
commonsense
November 29, 2008
12:27 PM

Chandra,

I empathize with you and all the victims, direct and indirect victims of this unspeakable carnage.

#39
Amitabh Mitra
URL
November 29, 2008
12:42 PM

Adil,
Pakistan has its own beautiful landmarks, its own culture and heritage. I have always wondered about these so called borders that have manifested in the minds of citizens of both countries. I wish I could go to Karachi and Lahore one day just to smell its aroma, to embrace a brother and sister. Your words about Mumbai have shown that many Mumbaikars like you live in Pakistan and share your thoughts.

#40
commonsense
November 29, 2008
01:23 PM

Amitabh Mitra,

Not to usurp the role of the thekedaar of sane humans, but sincere thanks for adding your voice to this discussion. in a way, we are all thekedaars of sanity, empathy even as we are revolted, revulsed by the acts of the terrorists and their supporters who certainly are in a minority.

#41
Chitrakut
November 29, 2008
10:44 PM

Amitabh,

Why just embrace brothers and sisters in Karachi, It may be a good idea to find yourself a bride in Karachi and live there the rest of your life. You will do us a lot of good.

#42
Chandra
November 29, 2008
10:54 PM

Chitrakut

Well said.....we get bombed and our friend here is 'wondering' about beautiful pakistan....hamara bhasha mein isko boltey hain ----'Intellectual Masturbation' [Edited: Vulgar content, Personal attack]

#43
commonsense
November 30, 2008
12:15 AM

[EDITED-STOP INVECTIVES]

#44
Sam
November 30, 2008
12:35 AM

Commonsense,

I'm sure the Pakistani terrorists who planned the recent attacks, would be very happy to read the abuses you have used on some guys, great display of unity and great brotherhood.

If i was a pakistani, i wouldn't trust you. You know why, when we have no repect for our immediate fellow citizens, what friendship are you going to maintain with the others. Maybe thats the reason why pakistan has time and again rejected our offer of friendship.

In that case I SALUTE the pakistanis...no matter what at least they are united and back each other up and till date i've never seen them abuse or threaten their fellow citizen in public. We have lots to learn in some common etiquettes.

#45
Nathan
November 30, 2008
12:50 AM

Dear Adil Nijam,

Thank you for your humane and human words and empathy. Thanks also for speaking out against terrorism committed in the name of religion. These worda are like fresh air for I was beginning to lose confidence in my world view. I for a long time have drawn a distinction between a few Muslims committing horrible crimes in the name of Islam and the vast majority of Muslims whom I have always believed did not condone these things. In recent days I had started losing confidence in that world view. I started wondering if there is this vast majority of moderate and peace-loving muslims why they don't speak out loudly against the actions of their co-religionists? Is it because that there isn't this vast majority of moderate muslims? That they secretly condone their behavior? In this void, came your condemntation and it gives me confidence that perhaps I am not wrong. We in India have our own extremists of whom I am not proud of. The difference though is that the civil society in India speaks out loudly against them and condemns them. They have their admirers as you might notice in the comments here. But, they also have numerous critics not silent critics but loud and public critics. That is what has been missing in the Islamic world, you must admit. In this void, as I said above, voices like yours are welcome. More voices like yours, loud public voices, I hope will reform Islam and bring it into the modern world for the good of everyone.

#46
commonsense
November 30, 2008
01:03 AM

Nathan,

Thanks for adding your voice in support of a civil society against terrorism. we need more folks like you

#47
kaffir
November 30, 2008
01:19 AM

Sam, citizen? I'm a world citizen and trivial concepts like country borders don't apply to me.

Nathan, ever heard of the term 'fitna'? It's considered a grave offense to be indulged in by a true Muslim, hence the lack of open criticism by moderate Muslims against their co-religionists. In private, you'll hear an earful from many of them cursing the mullahs as they pour a glass of Black Label, but even then, Zionist conspiracies and anti-West attitudes do get mentioned even in private. So yeah, it takes cojones from someone like Wafa Sultan and Ayan Hirsi Ali to openly and unconditionally criticize Islamic terrorism. The price is ex-communication from their ummah, so as you can see, many Muslims are caught between a rock and a hard place.

You can also read Naseeruddin Shah's interview around the release of the Pakistani movie 'Khuda Ke Liye' (google should bring it up) and he lays it out straight, which probably horrified a lot of lefties in India.

#48
commonsense
November 30, 2008
01:25 AM

[EDITED-IRRELEVANT]

#49
kaffir
November 30, 2008
01:55 AM

Nathan, here's the excerpt from Shah's interview:

"We were not fanatics, but I had been brought up in a very orthodox home. My mother's only solace and source of pleasure was prayer. As children, we were all taught to read the Quran but not to understand it. I remember even then that as the maulvi interpreted the holy text, I thought it ridiculous. His interpretations were full of fire and brimstone and talk of kafirs doomed for hell. I had many Hindu and Christian friends, who I knew to be very good fellows, and I wondered why they must suffer while we Muslims, no matter what we did, would only suffer a mild purgatorial period before we were all accepted into a sylvan heaven. According to him, everything was haraam: music, watching films, wearing western clothes, shaving, drinking, growing hair above the lips.

All of this bothered me intensely. What is the azaan but music; what is the recitation of the Quran but music? Did our holy book really condemn our women to look like penguins, deformed and shapeless in uniform black? The maulvi had 13 children: how were they to be reared? That is what should have been worrying him instead of all his talk of the afterlife.

Those two pages I read of Khuda ke Liye hooked me. They expressed everything I felt about my religion and culture. It was neither devout nor dismissive. It was an argument for what I believed in. I said yes immediately.

The maulvi's role that I play is a very small part of the film. It is centred on his long speech in the courtroom. But delivering that was the great satisfaction of my life. Through that role, I was able to voice all that I feel about Islam. This was amplified and strengthened by the fact that the maulvi quotes chapter and verse from the Quran to back his liberal and humane vision and so it completely repudiates the warped priorities and bigoted vision of the average spokesmen of the Koran."


The unfortunate situation in India (and probably in Pakistan too) is that people - Muslims and non-Muslims alike - do not have the guts to say what Shah said. Those non-Muslims who do speak out have to contend with the label "Islamophobe" and "communal" from the so-called open-minded liberals, and that is the sad state of debate and discussion.

#50
Chandra
November 30, 2008
02:04 AM

Nathan

Why doesn't Adil write an article demanding his Government handover Dawood to India? That is called 'empathy in action'. Baaki sab bakwaas

#51
crosspatch
November 30, 2008
02:19 AM

What concerns me is how long the world will continue tolerating the horror coming from Pakistan. When will the Pakistani people stand up and demand that it stop? When will the good believers of that religion stand up and demand that it stop? How long before the rest of the world rises up and demands that it stop?

You were on target when you said "the terror that has been wrought in Mumbai is vile and inhuman and unjustifiable". There can come a point where the people can decide they will no longer be an accessory to evil and to die in the cause of good is better than to live in the cause of murder. At that moment those who would spread their evil lose their intimidation over the masses and become weak.

The people can defeat this vile, inhumane, and unjustifiable behavior at any time. It is a matter of choosing to do so.

#52
Ledzius
November 30, 2008
02:26 AM

I agree with Chandra, the last thing we need is "waves of sympathy" from our friends across the border.

And even that, I suspect, is because they realise the devil they created is out there to consume them. Ten years ago these same morons must have been cheering Musharraf at Kargil.

#53
Sam
November 30, 2008
02:39 AM

To all those commentators who think there was no lapse by Indian security in intercepting this terrorist act and that terrorist's activity are the job of high end geniuses that doesn't occur in dhabas:
http://news.in.msn.com/national/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1711191

"The Taj Mahal Palace and Tower Hotel in Mumbai had been warned of a possible terrorist attack and had temporarily beefed up security, but nothing could have stopped the gunmen, Ratan Tata, chairman of the Tata Group that owns the hotel, said in an interview to be broadcast Sunday."

Since the Taj had some inkling, then obviously the country-Pakistan where this plan had originated ought to have known a lot more, some locals out there would have had some information but did not bring it to light and our own security agents should have known a lot.


#54
Sam
November 30, 2008
02:41 AM

Kaffir,

You maybe a "world citizen" in your own world. I respect your views on world citizenship but here we are talking about protecting the borders of India and Indian people. Good words cannot camouflage reality.

To you "border" might be a trivial concept but to me it's a big deal and to many of my fellow citizens and thousands and lakhs of soldiers who have sacrificed their lives protecting our borders from our hostile neighbor. This is significant. This is reality.


#55
Sam
November 30, 2008
02:45 AM

Hello Adil,

Is possible to start a campaign on your blog asking your Pakistani government to return an Indian terrorist Dawwod Ibrahim? His daughter is married to a famous cricketer's son in your country and he is somewhere in Pakistan, maybe his daughter can be a possible lead. That will really really help. Or if you have any other ideas, it will really help.

Lets curb and stop terrorism and people who carry it out.

#56
kaffir
November 30, 2008
02:45 AM

Sam, I was being somewhat facetious with my comment, and my response was in the spirit of taking a friendly dig at the "world citizens."

#57
G2B
November 30, 2008
02:47 AM

some one want Bheja Fry???

#58
Chandra
November 30, 2008
03:38 AM

Sam 55

Excellent suggestion!!

#59
Chandra
November 30, 2008
03:42 AM

Ledz 52


Kargil is an excellent example. They started with saying no Pakistanis were involved and then Nawaz Shariff visited the US and the rest is history.....The Pakistanis have done nothing to win our trust...anybody can write a blog saying they love Indians...give us Dawood and we will really believe you...

#60
Deepti Lamba
URL
November 30, 2008
03:55 AM

Thank you for posting this article on Desicritics, even though you must have expected some heat to come your way. Dialogue is what is most needed across borders and across hate. Please keep writing.

#61
Ledzius
November 30, 2008
04:17 AM

Chandra, they are not going to hand over Dawood on a platter unless we forcefully demand it. I doubt the current leadership would do it. I suspect it (as well as the opposition) have been paid off by D-company to keep quiet.

Otherwise, in spite of so many terror attacks and so many years, his extradition is never brought up in Parliament. I wonder why.

#62
Ledzius
November 30, 2008
04:32 AM

My gut feel is that, in order to save any embarrassment to top officials on both sides of the border, he will most likely die in an "encounter death" and his body will be handed over to us.

I suspect this would happen fairly soon.

#63
Apollo
November 30, 2008
06:32 AM

[EDITED - JUVENILE INVECTIVE]

#64
Sam
November 30, 2008
03:35 PM

When Muslims let go of their Fitna-ism...till then they cannot be trusted and they shouldn't just offer empty words of compassion that is nothing but humiliating.

Muslims should speak out and call a spade a spade. Only they can bring about a change and the onus lies on them.

--Only when Muslims believe that humanism comes before religiousness, Fitnaism, Jehadism and violent activities , there is no peace. This world is for everyone to live and eat in their own space and not for them only to call themselves world citizens.

--Salman Rushdie spoke against Islamic fanatics and concepts...what happened? He has a fatwa against him.

--Tasleema Nasreen has had the same fate. India will continue to offer them home and shelter and we will take care of them.

We need more people like them who speak the language of Humanism and back it by actions...not just empty words like the author has done by offering offensive sympathy.


#65
Aditi
November 30, 2008
05:07 PM

Salman Rushdie and Tasleema Nasreen are both authors who get through to people by means of their writings. Has anybody checked out this author's website: pakistaniat.com? It is probably read by a large number of Pakistani students and citizens. Communication is an important tool. Getting word around mobilizes people, gets large numbers acting. Media, journalism drives a lot of effective movements. I hope we all remember this and think many times before we proclaim that this author's words are just empty rhetoric. I suggest some of our commentators here do a quick search on Adil Najam and get acquainted with his views and his activities before accusing him of inaction.

A lot of authors on DC may not very well-known or famous but that does not mean their words are empty. Words have the power to influence thinking. Words have the power to inform people. Ultimately it is important that we do whatever we can in the ways we know best.

Moreover writing here and expressing one's thoughts is probably more effective than just posting comments that dismis other people's efforts, no matter how small they are.

#66
commonsense
November 30, 2008
05:50 PM

maybe it's just me (usually that's the case), but i really don't get it. here is someone who sincerely is tormented by the events, but some good folks are determined to identify him with his government, his country, his religion and pretty much everything else, except the ideas he has sincerely expressed. instead of wishing for more such individuals, some here are determined to repulse and muzzle such thinking. strange.

#67
Sam
November 30, 2008
06:16 PM

Strange? How quick one is to jump on conclusions that other commentators haven't exlpored Adil's piece of work....not surprising.

Words that are not backed by action are empty and plain are both authsuperficial.

Salman and Tasleema are authors who backed up their words with actions and did not participate in Fitnaism.They were not scared. They stood up for what was wrong and spoke aloud, wrote strongly and faced consequences.

NOW THATS the DIFFERENCE.

#68
Sam
November 30, 2008
06:23 PM

Writing here on DC maybe a big deal or no big deal. Being a famous author is not the point....infact that is petty thinking. But when the author's article is read that's the difference it makes to him and when there are comments on it that means it has been truly effective. It should not be mistaken for "being dismissed" or commentators are any "less effective". Let's not be judgmental.
That itself speaks for Adil's work, writing and thoughts


#69
Sam
November 30, 2008
06:33 PM

We know that 'being a famous author does not necessarily constitute full words' or vice versa.
We know that 'being an infamous author does not necessarily constitute empty words' or vice versa.

On a lighter note then every politician's words/promises would be highly impactful :-)


#70
Aditi
November 30, 2008
07:29 PM

Sam "Words that are not backed by action are empty and plain are both authsuperficial"

Yes, but everybody's idea of "action" isn't quite the same. Action could also mean influencing other people's thoughts and ideas through writing.

#71
smallsquirrel
November 30, 2008
07:38 PM

so, sam, what big action are you taking. or better yet, since you are apparently so big on action I would suppose your giant deeds are what let you mouth off so much about others' supposed inaction.

do enlighten us.

#72
commonsense
November 30, 2008
07:38 PM

Sam:

"Words that are not backed by action are empty and plain are both authsuperficial"

if you are involved in any action other than contributing to the discussion here, let us know. and why can constructive contribution to a discussion not be counted as "action"?

i believe you are confusing two issues: when somebody claims he/she is honest but accepts bribes, then you can rebuke him/her for not backing up her words with action since the action contradicts her words.

However, when we are discussing an issue, contribution to the discussion is quite obviously "action" too.

#73
commonsense
November 30, 2008
07:44 PM

Sam,

If I say I am love to donate to charities, but never actually conribute any money then I can be accused of not "backing up my word with action" and of hypocrisy.

If I own a blog devoted to discussing issues and to providing a commonsense perspective on issues (which may appear to be nonsense to others) then I am indeed engaged in action. My words constitute action, and there's no contradiction nor hypocrisy.

To nail Adil as somebody who does not back his words with action is to miss the point. He is in the business of expressing his views on crucial issues, and he engages in this action through words. That is his action. You may not agree with his action. Fair enough. But it is still action that you don't agree with, not inaction or just words. Why is this so complicated?

#74
Chandra
November 30, 2008
07:45 PM

CS, Aditi

Please let us get on with our lives. All of us have different mindsets and beliefs and therefore operate differently. There are some Indians who agree with you and I do believe they are as smart and intelligent as you are. However, there are many Indians who donot agree with you and they are equally smart and intelligent. Finally, it is about trust. You consider this as something that has come out of the heart and therefore there is value in this post. OTH many of us look at it differently. This individual gets to vote, has an opinion in a country that houses individuals like Dawood brahim and Syed Salauddin. Dawood whose daugher (?) maried Miandad's son (?) lives in Karachi. The Interpol is on the look out for him. Yet, they have done nothing about it. Have you heard of notorious criminals/terrorists of another country living in India? If this Adil guy is really serious, he should demand from his Govt that they handover Dawood to the Indian Govt. That i will respect and thank....otherwise it is all empty rhetoric and just like me, Adil is not Taslima or Salman......

#75
Chandra
November 30, 2008
08:00 PM

SS 71


If I have understood correctly, he is not demanding action from Adil. What he means to say is that what an ordinary Pakistani says is in direct contrast to what his Govt (Bombing of Indian embassy in Kabul a couple of months ago, hosting dawood etc etc) or what some of his other fellow citizens are doing (Mumbai attack).
As a writer, as much as he can write an article expressing sympathy, he can demand that Dawood be handed over to India.....Dawood is on the Interpol watchlist....

#76
Aditi
November 30, 2008
09:00 PM

"This individual gets to vote, has an opinion in a country that houses individuals like Dawood brahim and Syed Salauddin. Dawood whose daugher (?) maried Miandad's son (?) lives in Karachi"

Thats very true, Chandra. But on the other hand how much have we been able to influence what our government does? We have limited choices from among a group of corrupt politicians. And in our busy, daily lives do we do anything effective or make any demands of our government? If we could, we would have elected a government that had an intelligence in place to predict and prevent these attacks.

We all just do what we can and that's all I really wanted to say.

#77
kerty
November 30, 2008
09:41 PM

Chandra

One of main problem among moslems has been absence of vocal moderate constituency that has moral courage to speak out - be it against mullahs, against their fundamentalist creed, against their theocratic state or their terrorist brethren.

Whenever isolated voices do dare to speak out, they get crushed from both sides of the spectrum - the fundamentalists, not doubt, see them as a threat and come down heavily on them. They do not get moral support from our side either. For us, mere act of defiance and standing up to Pakistan is not good enough - we expect them to do more, we expect them to take on entrenched establishment, solve all historical problems and produce viable moderate alternatives - I do not think lone moderate voices can meet such expectations. Has Rushdie or Tasleema created moderate movements around them - no, they remain lone voices in wilderness - in fact, they have helped harden the fundamentalist side. So quest for outspoken moderates among moslems have remained illusive. The vaccume is invariably filled by hardcore jehadis. So there is understandable frustration. I can understand why Adils would be met with cynicism and heightened expectations. Yet, Adil remains a ray of hope - it is not about if we can turn moslems into moderates or moderates into viable alternative of fundamentalists - that battle is already lost to fundamentalists - it is all about if we can be stop radicalization, move them away from jihad. In Pakistan, that battle seems lost too. Why Adil needs our solidarity and we need his - both gasping for breath as terrifying images of what lays ahead stream out.

#78
Sam
December 1, 2008
02:21 AM

SS,

Yes, you are right bang on target, my giant deeds do speak for themselves.

CS,
Actions huh? how about you watch out that your comments are not deleted?
From your statements you surely are confused to the core.
Let me say it AGAIN...
All I said to Adil if it was possible to start a campaign on your blog asking your Pakistani government to return an Indian terrorist Dawwod Ibrahim?
It means influencing other people's thoughts and ideas through writing ONLY. This is Adil core competency isn't it?
I don't think so there should be any problem to him and not to you either. Let Adil speak for himself.

#79
Ledzius
December 1, 2008
02:29 AM

I wish the empathy shown by some Pakistanis is genuine as some claim. However the fact of the matter is, there is a deep sense of hatred entrenched in their psyche towards Indians. The sudden show of sympathy has to do with the fact that they are themselves now at the receiving end of what their establishment has focused on all these years.

It is tempting to divorce Pakistani civilians from the politico-military establishment and hold the former on higher moral grounds. The fact of the matter is, an extremely high part of their civilian population has been historically involved in one way or the other with their military and religious extremism. For many young Pakistanis, a career in the armed forces is still their dream. Many "normal" civilians would have gloated over their "achievements" in the past, be it terrorist attacks on India (through LeT or JeM), or install a brutal regime of Taliban in Afghanistan.

Absence of good role models and stressing of wrong values since childhood (too much importance to their religious identity as opposed to basic humanist values and ethics) have made a lot of Pakistanis have a diminished sense of a moral compass. The values instilled in childhood are bound to have a lasting effect that cannot be changed later.

When I was in the US as a teaching assistant in a university, I always used to find that a group of fob Pakistanis were the worst in terms of cheating, whether in assignments or in exams. Till that point, even I had a hallowed view of humanity and believed every group was inherently ethical, notwithstanding a few bad apples here and there. But this experience opened my eyes and only then did I started realising that maybe there are other factors like religion, culture, and even genetics that shape the mental and ethical makeup of people-at-large.

I therefore take a less-than-charitable view of this sudden outpouring of sympathy from the Pakistanis.

#80
Sam
December 1, 2008
02:35 AM

Aditi -70,

I guess you understood and/or we are on the same page...

All I requested to Adil (in comment#55) if it was possible to start a campaign on his blog asking his Pakistani government to return an Indian terrorist Dawood Ibrahim?

Since he is 'min the profession of writing and therefore influencing other people's thoughts and ideas through writing would come easy to him isn't it?


Action could also mean influencing other people's thoughts and ideas through writing..

Whereas, we electing our government to do this job, yes we can but is there anything inappropriate in erely requesting' a Pakistani who is offering sympathy, that he can start a propoganda on his blog? I sincerely meant that..he is a writer, he has the power and so does every person who is a writer--it's a gift to write and have the power of the pen.

If any of my comments especially # 70 is anyway offensive or in any way insults Adil ( since it bothers CS and SS so much), then I ask the owner of this forum to delete it.

#81
G2B
December 1, 2008
05:18 AM

Hey Guys!
Forget Pakistan, watch CNN IBN see how our politicians behave!!
deputy CM of Maha RR Patil resigned after calling this incident minor one??
CM Vilasrao went for a picnic inside Taj with his actor Son and Film Director RGV !!!
May be they want to make some movie out of it!
Shame on these Bastards!

#82
commonsense
December 1, 2008
07:57 AM

Sam:

""CS,
Actions huh? how about you watch out that your comments are not deleted?
From your statements you surely are confused to the core""

I will be the first to admit that my comments that got deleted should not have been written in the first place. in fact i have already apologized for it, on the thread. if you think this discussion is about scoring points or attending to giant sized egos attached to (fill your blank), I have nothing more to say.

#83
commonsense
December 1, 2008
08:00 AM

G2B # 81, yes; these guys, our politicians, most of them, live on another planet. thanks for pointing out the details. amazing, but not quite, given their track-record.

#84
commonsense
December 1, 2008
08:03 AM

Led:

""However the fact of the matter is, there is a deep sense of hatred entrenched in their psyche towards Indians."'

this appears to be mutual for a lot of people on both sides doesn't it? albeit for different reasons.

#85
commonsense
December 1, 2008
08:06 AM

Ledizus:

"When I was in the US as a teaching assistant in a university, I always used to find that a group of fob Pakistanis were the worst in terms of cheating, whether in assignments or in exams. Till that point, even I had a hallowed view of humanity....did I started realising that maybe there are other factors like religion, culture, and even genetics that shape the mental and ethical makeup of people-at-large.""

What the FISH??! Pakistanis have different GENES that impels them to cheating in exams? And the Pakistani FOB (as you use the term in a derogatory way) were the only ones cheating in exams? And you were a Teaching Assistant at a university in the USA? Educator, educate thyself!

#86
commonsense
December 1, 2008
08:18 AM

Lediszius:

"When I was in the US as a teaching assistant in a university, I always used to find that a group of fob Pakistanis were the worst in terms of cheating, whether in assignments or in exams. Till that point, even I had a hallowed view of humanity....did I started realising that maybe there are other factors like religion, culture, and even genetics that shape the mental and ethical makeup of people-at-large.""

So one can presume that you seriously believe that cheating in exams can never be found in India? Or if it is, perhaps only Muslims engage in it due to factors such as "religion, culture and even genetics"? brilliant!!

#87
smallsquirrel
December 1, 2008
11:22 AM

ledz, you are a seriously warped individual. were you born that hateful or did something happen to you along the way. I am asking sincerely because you seem to be so full ideas that boggle my mind that I am having trouble comprehending how you even got to where you are. again, I am asking in earnest because there has to be a reason why you think the way that you do.

#88
kerty
December 1, 2008
11:57 AM

SS

"I am asking in earnest because there has to be a reason why you think the way that you do"

I think Ledz has been very elaborate and explicit in providing arguments in support of his conclusions in #79. If a specific point does not make sense or need rebuttal, that onus is on you and others to point out.

#89
Sumanth
December 1, 2008
05:19 PM

One has to ponder why the incident at Mumbai is taken so seriously by Indians or the world in last few days. What was so different in these 7 days that people are so charged up?

I was a guest along with couple of judges at a seminar recently.

What came out of it was:

The civil society is so numb that it wakes up only when their is a win in a 20-20 cricket match or when there is a big terror incident.

As days pass by the civil society goes back to the numbness as usual.

In that seminar, it was also discussed,"how over exposure to audio-visual stimulus impacts the cognitive capabilities of human brain".

A friend told me yesterday,"hey, did you see the latest stats? The suicides in India have gone up by 40% in last 11 years"?

That means, 35,000 "more" people committed suicide in India in 2007 compared to 1996.

The deaths of 1,23,000 people due to suicides in India in just one year has virtually no impact on the civil society. Its just another small piece of news in a corner.

So, life will go on being numb. We all will sleep walk with our own "points of views", till some show has a wardrobe malfunction.

The gap between perception and reality is widening at such a high rate that it is now extremely remote, if people can ever find any solutions.

However, the discussion will go on. The numb society and the sleep walkers will discuss, debate, argue, fight, rant and spam to find the solutions. Alas, at last, something is better than nothing.

#90
Chandra
December 1, 2008
07:00 PM

Ledz

Your sample is too small to draw any definite conclusions. We know for a fact that in the UK, muslim immigrants from pakistan are lower on achievement than Muslim/Hindu/Sikh immigrants from India. That is probably because they still believe that South Indians are short and North Indians are tall :-). One expert actually felt that terrorist Qasam could not have been a Pakistani because he was too short. Instead his height clearly indicated that he must have been a South Indian hindu. :-)

#91
Sam
December 2, 2008
12:24 AM

Lakshar terrorist that were arrested in Feb 08 in UP when interrogated, confessed that there were ongoing plans by their group to carry out attacks on Taj, Mumbai. This information was sent by UP police to Mumbai but the Mumbai police did not pay heed to it .....
(this is as per the Aaj tak news today)
----------------------

Adil, if this information is true...then we any additional help from our neighbor will be futile, because the LAPSE is on our part. The information was there but ignored ...
No help can help us now....

#92
Dimal Perera
December 2, 2008
04:18 AM

I'm no Indian but empathize with the people in India. Having said this, people like Sam, Chandra and Chitrakut disgust me with their myopic view. These are the people that help perpetuate the hate and subsequent violence.

Majority of my friends are Indians and Pakistanis. I see them coexist/work and even see them getting along really well in neutral environments so much so.

Blaming a single individual Pakistani for these attacks is akin to blaming each of these writers for the likes of the senseless violence against Muslims and Christians in India and terrorists like Dawood Ibrahim.

Asking the author to get more information on terrorists is as unthinkable as asking each of these authors to clean up government corruption in each of their respective countries.

An act of terror is as such. Pakistanis are as human as Indians and the rest of us. Condemning one for showing his humanity must shatter your miserable views that Pakistanis are less than human. How truly sad and pathetic.

Lucky for us that a majority of Indians don't share your views

#93
G2B
December 2, 2008
04:53 AM

Dimal,
Wonderful ! I agree with you, I really appreciate your understanding. I am happy to read a very sensible post from you.
just go to the archives, October see one article wrotten by Chandra , and almost 200 responses by senseless Indians!!!! You will be able to judge these people ???

#94
G2B
December 2, 2008
04:53 AM

Dimal,
Wonderful ! I agree with you, I really appreciate your understanding. I am happy to read a very sensible post from you.
just go to the archives, October see one article written by Chandra , and almost 200 responses by senseless Indians!!!! You will be able to judge these people ???

#95
Dimal Perera
December 2, 2008
07:06 AM

@G2B - Nope. If it's anything like these posts then I'd rather not. Not worth my time.

Not to argue with you but fact is that there are as many senseless Pakistanis and ppl of every nationality, including mine. I personally choose to make less of morons like this and their points of view.

#96
Dimal Perera
December 2, 2008
07:08 AM

@G2B - Nope. If it's anything like these posts then I'd rather not. Not worth my time.

Not to argue with you but fact is that there are as many senseless Pakistanis and ppl of every nationality, including mine. I personally choose to make less of morons like this and their points of view.

#97
Dimal Perera
December 2, 2008
07:11 AM

@G2B - Nope. If it's anything like these posts then I'd rather not. Not worth my time.

Not to argue with you but fact is that there are as many senseless Pakistanis and ppl of every nationality, including mine. I personally choose to make less of morons like this and their points of view.

#98
commonsense
December 2, 2008
08:27 AM

G2B:

""just go to the archives, October see one article written by Chandra , and almost 200 responses by senseless Indians!!!!""

hey G2B, I agree with you about the piece chandra wrote. however, my comments in response, were a bit, err, umm, on the commonsensical side!

#99
kerty
December 2, 2008
11:57 AM

G2B

Why not go to that thread by Chandra and argue your case against those points? They are not senseless if you can not rebut them.

#100
Chandra
December 2, 2008
11:59 AM

Perera and G2B

Nothing in this article or my article on Mumbai or on missionaries says I hate Pakistanis or christians...prove it...

OTH both of you live in lalala land. The reality is that there is huge pressure on the Govt to bomb pakistan. Thankfully the Govt is not mad. lastly, continue deluding yourself about Pakistan. It is people like both of you because of your Political correctness that we refuse to recognise a problem. It is a pity...

#101
Dimal Perera
December 2, 2008
02:46 PM

@ Chandra - Boy are you missing the point.

You and your gang are blasting a guy for emphatising for a loss in your country. I'll go as far as saying that if the author were Indian you wouldn't be saying what your saying. That's all there is to it.

Time to wake up from your lalala land.

#102
commonsense
December 2, 2008
04:37 PM

Dimal:

""I'll go as far as saying that if the author were Indian you wouldn't be saying what your saying."'

hitting the proverbial nail on the head. indeed that fact that the person is pakistani makes it more poignant, not a reason to be suspicious, belligerant, hostile to the point of abusive.

#103
Amit
December 2, 2008
05:21 PM

Hey Dimal,

Why are you pinning on Abil? Cannot he talk for himself. It is people like you who have no identity whatsoever of their own that have to indulge in being someone's pawn.

Read the comments again, out of all the comments you picked only 3 people because their comments stood out and made sense. Nothing difference from what the world is echoing too :)

If the author was Indian, obviously he wouldn't be nailed. That's commonsense, didn't be a genious to figure that out.

Sorry to dissappoint you but majority of Indians and World do share the same views and are putting pressure on Pakistan...please convey wishes to Abil.

The world knows that terror has a name...ISLAM. I didn't say this but their own people want to convey this. And the world knows now.

#104
Dimal Perera
December 2, 2008
05:24 PM

Hey CS,

I can relate to where you're coming from. My viewpoint is, however, different.

I chanced upon this article through the reference of an Indian acquaintance. It echoes the sentiments of all my Indian (quite a few Mumbaiites among them) and non Indian (yes, even Pakistanis) friends/acquaintances and colleagues.

Personally, the authors nationality doesn't concern me one bit. I simply know that his opinions echo mine and all of the others.

These three detract, belittle and sully this well written piece. And that is an insult to me and everyone else I know.

#105
Dimal Perera
December 2, 2008
05:36 PM

@ Amit:

Your opinion is absolutely beyond comprehension.

The word Islam itself means Peace. Plus Islam holds much common ground to Christianity and Judaism. Given this, you have now accused atleast 2/3rds of the world's population of terrorism.

Amit, if you read my comments before you'll know well that I don't defend the writer. I write for what I believe in and those I know. So don't assume the intentions of my posts.

Unlike you, I will not put my blame on any layman for the actions of his government or vice versa. You crucify him for something his government might be responsible for? Please.... in that case I might blame all if you and the rest of India for any petty wrong doing any Indian might committ against me. Rubbish!

#106
Dimal Perera
December 2, 2008
05:45 PM

@ Amit - Furthermore, you assume to know a lot about the world and how everyone in the world thinks. Yet no one, in the cosmopolitan environment that I'm in, including Indians share your opinions at all.

Read a little more, travel the world and then get your facts straight. It'll make more intelligent reading.

#107
kaffir
December 2, 2008
06:34 PM

The word Islam itself means Peace.

Dimal, sorry to butt in, but slight correction. Islam means "submission/surrender" (to God) and not "peace." Maybe the confusion arises because of the similar sounding Hebrew word shalom which means peace?

OK. Carry on. :-)

#108
Chandra
December 2, 2008
06:36 PM

Dimal 101

"I'll go as far as saying that if the author were Indian you wouldn't be saying what your saying"

True. To extend this, even if it came from an Egyptian or a Iranian I as somebody who lives in Mumbai would have appreciated that. Not a Pakistani. OTH if the content was focussed on cleaning up their country, I would have appreciated that.

Finally, nobody tells us what or how to behave with Pakistan. We Indians will debate and fight each other and decide what to do but it is best foreigners like you stay away

#109
commonsense
December 2, 2008
06:40 PM

Dimal:

""These three detract, belittle and sully this well written piece. And that is an insult to me and everyone else I know.""

I totally agree! the author of the article is sincerely expressing his empathy, and all some folks can respond with is "FISH you!!" And then the same folks are surprised that there is so much rancour, hostility, belligerence etc. in this world!

#110
Chandra
December 2, 2008
06:46 PM

Dimal: Yet no one, in the cosmopolitan environment that I'm in, including Indians share your opinions at all.


Chandra: However, most Indians in India share Amit's opinion. The anti-islamic feeling, rightly or wrongly is brewing across the nation. However, people have bottled those emotions well. Instead, most of that anger is directed at our Govt.

Dimal, stop insulting the intelligence of the average Indian, by referring to travelling around et al, you seem to suggest that Amit has not or that he is dumb. That is not correct at all. That shows the same arrogance that you accuse us off. Stop wading into India vs Pakistn.

#111
Chandra
December 2, 2008
06:53 PM

CS

The terrorist attacks happened because of people like you. People who donot have the courage to take tough decisions because they are trying to be PC all the time. Being PC at the cost of being impractical has a huge cost. The current Govt felt that an increase in anti-terrorism measures would lost them the muslim vote. Now we know the cost. Commonsense is about being practical, you are not, probably time to change your nick.

#112
Chandra
December 2, 2008
06:57 PM

Dimal, GB and CS

What is your opinion about the list of 20 that we handed over to Pakistan? Should the Pakistani Govt cooperate and handover Maualana Azhar (IC 814 Hijacking) and Dawood Ibrahim (1993 blasts)?

#113
Dimal Perera
December 2, 2008
07:08 PM

@ kaffir - I stand corrected.

@ Chandra - Bugger off. This article has nothing to do with Pakistan/India relations. You're making it one and drag all of that into it. You revel in it and are consumed by it. It's this petty wallowing and self absorption that begets hate crime.

The author is a common individual as human as me and any of my Indian friends. You insult his sentiments and those that have suffered as a result of this heinous crime.

#114
commonsense
December 2, 2008
07:24 PM

Chandra:

""CS

The terrorist attacks happened because of people like you.""

ha ha ha! you should do stand-up comedy, except this ain't even funny. now you seek to pin all the blame on me! ok, you did say people like me, not just me. yet, cute! let's see, your list (so far) includes:

1. pakistanis
2.missionaries
3. muslims
4. adil
5. etc. etc. etc.

#115
commonsense
December 2, 2008
07:28 PM

Chandra:

""CS

The terrorist attacks happened because of people like you. People who donot have the courage to take tough decisions because they are trying to be PC all the time."'

Too hilarious and yet tragic for words. When you "have the courage to take tough decisions" do give me a call at 1-800-commonsense and tell me all about it! Welcome to the twilight zone. And yes, I may be PC but I have nothing against you just because you are a Mac. Computers, all too computers.

#116
commonsense
December 2, 2008
07:30 PM

Chandra:

""Being PC at the cost of being impractical has a huge cost.""

Maybe! But Macs are not that expensive as they used to be; besides they are more user-friendly than PC's. However, the user-friendly part does not apply to you since you are not-PC.

#117
Chandra
December 2, 2008
07:31 PM

Dimal

It is impractical and ignorant folks like you who are responsible. You guys are so lost in your ivory towers that you have no clue what is happening with ordinary people. No wonder that these attacks continue.....

#118
commonsense
December 2, 2008
07:34 PM

Chandra:

""CS

The terrorist attacks happened because of people like you.""

hey, your are getting sluggish since you forgot to blame global warming on me; and the election of obama too, since you were really into bush and the republicans. while you are at it, you can blame everything, even your hypertension on me. I empathize with you as you really were in mumbai. But then, so was Ideasmith, and she does not seem to be on the verge of losing it, unlike you.

#119
Chandra
December 2, 2008
07:35 PM

CS

Why should I try stand-up comedy when we have people like you around? :-)

I never blamed Adil, muslims or Pakistanis in general. Please read my article about why they attacked India? Do I blame anybody? You should be ashamed of yourselves


#120
Dimal Perera
December 2, 2008
07:38 PM

@ Chandra - Third time you're missing the point of my posts and the article in general so you must be quite daft.

Take your arguments where Indo/Pak relations are concerned. I'm no expert there so I won't be butting in.

As far as this article is concerned, let us share the authors sentiments without hearing your insensitive rambling.

#121
Chandra
December 2, 2008
07:39 PM

CS

"Maybe! But Macs are not that expensive as they used to be; besides they are more user-friendly than PC's. However, the user-friendly part does not apply to you since you are not-PC"

Only somebody who is an expert in stand-up comedy can move a discussion on terrorism to personal compters and Mac. In fact, I would recommend changing your nick from Commonsense to Comedian. I am sure people will understand your jokes better :-)

#122
commonsense
December 2, 2008
07:40 PM

Chandra:

""CS

Why should I try stand-up comedy when we have people like you around? :-)""

Well, I could get tired and might want to sit down, for starters :-) Beyond that, I might get tired of being the official DC court jester? Finally, you show ample signs of making it in the world of comedy, so I could annoint you as THE person to succeed me. More finally, I believe you have real talent, and people tired of PC might want to try Mac? Methinks enough reasons.

#123
commonsense
December 2, 2008
07:43 PM

Exhibit #1:

""Do I blame anybody? You should be ashamed of yourselves""

Exhibit #2:

Chandra:
""CS

The terrorist attacks happened because of people like you.""

Go figure!! Did you blame anybody? No, the PC is just imagining all this, simple cut/paste notwithstanding. You win Mac, hands down. You make Steve Jobs day!!


#124
Chandra
December 2, 2008
07:46 PM

Dimal

I live in Mumbai and people who died are friends of my friends. My maid's son was at the CST a few hours after the attack, we searched him for two days. So donot tell me about being sensitive. I have many Pakistani friends and some Pakistani clients, so you donot have to tell me about consideration. Read my article on why we were attacked. This article in my view has come at an importune time. Private commisserations with teh average Indian is fine but with mounting evidence on where the attack came from, this article is insensitive.

Also, as somebody who does not understand this investigation, it is better you stay away.

#125
Chandra
December 2, 2008
07:52 PM

Comedian 118

Here is evidence of your sluggishness. Please read your comment in response to my article

"Agree with everything you have written here! Well done! There may be other explanations and factors, but you get to the heart of the matter"

Changed your mind now?

#126
commonsense
December 2, 2008
07:54 PM

chandra,

contrary to what you might think or not think, i am not an insensitive animal. nobody belittles your experience of horror. i was not in mumbai, you were and you experienced the brunt of it. i am sorry, even though the horror and the brutality of the terrorists was not because of "people like me". At the same time, if you can think thru rationally, i have no idea why you are so hostil to Adil who is simply expressing his sincere views (as far as I can tell)

#127
Chandra
December 2, 2008
07:56 PM

Comedian 122: "I might get tired of being the official DC court jester?"

DC Court jester is appropriate....:-)

#128
Dimal Perera
December 2, 2008
07:57 PM

@ Chandra - That justifies your anger and criticism at the author?

Chandra, if you have Paki friends and clients will you sever all ties with them and condemn them if they have nothing to do with the attack personally and condemn them? Think about it.

I'm sorry for the hardship and the pain that this attack has caused you. You are directly affected by this and I won't pretend to know and understand the suffering that this is causing you.

But do rise above it and realise that these are beyond the everyday Pakistani citizen. And that even if their government has endorsed this that there are many in Pakistan that will condemn them for it. It's just not fair to condemn all Pakistanis, and subsequently the author of this article, for this then.

You have my sincerest heartfelt sympathies for your losses and I'm sorry for assuming that you felt any less.

#129
commonsense
December 2, 2008
08:01 PM

Chandra:

Here is evidence of your sluggishness. Please read your comment in response to my article

"Agree with everything you have written here! Well done! There may be other explanations and factors, but you get to the heart of the matter"

Changed your mind now?""

No, not at all! your evidence just establishes the fact that I have nothing personal against you or anyone. Rather I respond to ideas, not to people and i never hold a grudge. as in, credit where credit is due, it does not matter WHO is saying it. Difficult perhaps for you to grasp, but I have nothing against you PERSONALLY. I empathise with your situation, like it or not!

#130
commonsense
December 2, 2008
08:11 PM

Chandra,

You seem to think that me, the DC courtjester and everyone else is against you. Given your horrendous experience over the past few days and the trauma you have absorbed. If nothing else works, just don't think I or anyone is against you personally. I know for sure I don't have anything against you and if I have inadvertently made you feel that way, my sincere apologies. Not kidding at all. Totally sincere and serious about this. It is not just hard but absolutely impossible for me to step in your shoes so I won't even try. Enough of smart-ass wisecracks from me. Forget about me and please focus on the immediate issues you probably have to deal/cope with. Sorry!

#131
commonsense
December 2, 2008
08:19 PM

chandra,

i bow out of this discussion. even if you do not need my empathy, i cannot help but empathize. sincere best wishes to you and your family.

#132
Dimal Perera
December 2, 2008
08:37 PM

I agree to do the same. To continue further is pointless and painful, especially to Chandra and those like him that have been affected by this terrorist attack.

Chandra, you and everyone else affected by this have my prayers. This is all I can personally offer right now.

#133
Sam
December 2, 2008
10:40 PM

Listen Dimal , you have no right to accuse me or indicate in anyway that I an Indian who is promoting disharmony or any of my comments have been rude or abusive. I defy you to pick one and explain. Just because a bunch of people are very pleased to have received some sympathy by the author , then that is their call and decision if that makes them happy, I respect that. I cannot be happy by that and refuse to be in that bracket.
I have a different outlook and I don't and never want sympathy. If not accepting sympathy means being rude, then so be it.
And to forget that I have demanded the moderators to delete any of my comments if at all they have been offensive to anyone or the author. Get going.....

#134
Sam
December 2, 2008
10:46 PM

The word Islam definitely means violence because that is what the majority of them who come into limelight want to promote. Wherever there is terrorism in the world, there is ought to be some Islamic terrorist group behind it. I am not interested in going into details to figure it out myself to give anyone benefit of the doubt or by asking : "are you a peace loving Muslim or are you not/" Muslims don't need my approval for anything and I don't need theirs. It is all about how your community represents. I am part of my community and I do a good job of conducting myself by being hard core secular. Period. It is upto the peace loving Islamic people to stop indulging in 'Fitraism' and come out and stand for world peace and cooperate. How difficult is that? The whole world has condemned Pakistan for this and Pakistan government is busy defending itself now...which is too late. Actions is the key word here...

#135
Sam
December 2, 2008
10:48 PM


Dimal,
The world is watching Pakistan. India and US both have given directive to Islamabad: prove your protestations of innocence and non-complicity at the official level, local level with a full and transparent cooperation in the face of overwhelming evidence that the footprints of the terror attack lead back to Pakistan. It is truly ACTION TIME now.

So what will you call the world and India now....all of us being rude and offensive, we being detractive, belittling and sully....huh?? Keep calling names...it doesn't affect anyone now. If this is what it takes, then I welcome you to call me and the entire world who has condemned this the same. No problem....where commonsense lacks, that's when people resort to such name calling.


#136
Sam
December 2, 2008
10:54 PM

So when I had earnestly politely graciously # 55 requested the author last week to start a campaign on this blog since he is writer and best expresses through words(per commonsense) and that itself equates action, and now leaders from India and the rest of the world demands the same cooperation and action....there is bound to be a plan and an action plan in place. How can this be construed as being rude....this is plain commonsense.

You guys have run out of time....you support violence, close your eyes to it, ignore it and this is what you will get. No one is helpless here....

#137
Sam
December 3, 2008
01:37 AM

So Pakistan has rejected India's request to hand over Indian fugitives. Great job....great display of unity amongst Pakistani and Islamic terrorists. Applaud....

Sorry to break this news, quite a bunch of commentators who had hopes of Indo-Pak ties improving, it only worsened...it's futile...it's been 60 years plus...it's really not worth it.
Wake up..smell the coffee...

#138
commonsense
December 3, 2008
03:53 AM

excerpts from a piece "India's 9/11? Not Really" by amitav ghosh in today's NYT:

""When commentators repeat the metaphor of 9/11 they are in effect pushing the Indian government to mount a comparable response. If India takes a hard line modeled on the actions of the Bush administration, the consequences are sure to be equally disastrous. The very power of the 9/11 metaphor blinds us to the possibility that there might be other, more productive analogies for the invasion of Mumbai: one is the Madrid train bombings of March 11, 2004, which led to a comparable number of casualties and created a similar sense of shock and grief.

If 9/11 is a metaphor for one kind of reaction to terrorism, then 11-M (as it is known in Spanish) should serve as shorthand for a different kind of response: one that emphasizes vigilance, patience and careful police work in coordination with neighboring countries. This is exactly the kind of response India needs now, and fortunately this seems to be the course that the government, led by the Congress Party, has decided to follow. Government spokesmen have been at some pains to specify that India does not intend to respond with a troop buildup along the border with Pakistan, as the Bharatiya Janata-led government did after the attack by Muslim extremists on India's Parliament in 2001.

It is clear now that Pakistan's establishment is so deeply divided that it no longer makes sense to treat it as a single entity. Sometimes a crisis is also an opportunity: this is a moment when India can forge strategic alliances with those sections of the Pakistani government, military and society who understand that they, too, are under fire.""

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/opinion/03ghosh.html?ref=opinion





#139
Chandra
December 3, 2008
11:28 PM

CS

Amitav is right. This attack is not India's 9/11. This is war, an enemy country attacking us by stealth means.

#140
Vij
December 4, 2008
07:48 PM

Recent news -
http://www.desihotmasala.com/2008/12/mohammed-ajmal-amir-qasab-my-father.html

"We were told that our big brother India is so rich and we are dying of poverty and hunger. My father sells dahi wada on a stall in Lahore and we did not even get enough food to eat from his earnings. I was promised that once they knew that I was successful in my operation, they would give Rs 1,50,000 [almost USD 4,000] to my family)," said Qasab.

#141
Ledzius
December 4, 2008
11:28 PM

Apparently most Pakistanis who were initially sympathetic to us are not seeing eye to eye anymore and are actually calling this a conspiracy by India. There is a clear divergence in the views of mainstream media in both countries.

There are fundamental differences in the mindsets of the populaces of the two countries which cannot be denied.

#142
kerty
December 5, 2008
12:17 AM

Ledz

Pakistanis took out angry marches and rallies in cities across Pakistan against India's claim that Pakistan-based militants were behind the Mumbai attacks. They were seen raising slogans, burning Indian flags, burning effegies of India - they are mad as hell. Not at terrorists, but at the victims of terrorists. Yahoo has their pictures. Amazing.

#143
commonsense
December 23, 2008
10:53 PM

Chandra to me (not to his sweetheart)

""CS-10

Sweetheart, stop pretending to be an Indian.""

Chandra, stop pretending I am your sweetheart. As they say, "get a wife!". If you already have one, make sure she does not think I'm your sweetheart.

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