http://desicritics.org/ Superior South Asian bloggers on Culture, Media, Politics, Sport, Business, and Technology. en Copyright 2006 by the authors Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:40:03 EST http://backend.userland.com/rss BC custom software http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-345897 CS: " it sounds like an anglicised version of Keerty to me." Keerthana is even sexier!!! loving it keerthu??? 345897@desicritics.org Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:40:03 EST http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-345817 GB: "...by the way just curious what is your real name? Kerty sounds like some missionary name to me??????" it sounds like an anglicised version of Keerty to me. 345817@desicritics.org Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:51:56 EST http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-345802 Kerty: "Thanks to messenger of cross for reserving hell for us - for making us perish, like they have done to so many natives everywhere. National integrity, anyone? BRILLIANT Kerty, I appreciate your arguement skills, by the way just curious what is your real name? Kerty sounds like some missionary name to me?????? 345802@desicritics.org Mon, 24 Nov 2008 07:51:50 EST http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-345794 Vinod Latin America and Philippines are good examples of failure of conversions to create a promised land and save their people. Even after conversion, they are trapped in poverty, exploitation, despotic rule, endless coups and insurgencies, patronage of imperialists. Reason they have not been wiped out like many other native cultures have been is due to their innate size, strength and scope(Philippines is surrounded by Asiatic nations) that forced the missionaries to adopt an incremental tract and pursue tactics of localizing xianity and blending it within local cultures. Such strategy helps create the gridlocks within local cultures and subverts them from within so their potency and vitality are neutralized - why these cultures can not stand on their own without church and western patronage. They have not thrown away their colonial masters - they are hopelessly dependent on ideas, traditions and institutions brought over by colonial masters. Those colonial masters need not live there or administer them any longer, as locals do it much better with lot more zeal. North-east ethnic troubles are associated with conversions. Conversions are at the heart of ethnic differences and local issues. Having achieved demographic strength thru conversions, converts seek to deny non-converts and wage insurgencies for separatism. 345794@desicritics.org Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:28:45 EST http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-345743 Kerty, what's the basis for saying that "Conversion inevitably destroys a local culture and is fundamentally subversive in content." Look at south America and the Philippines. Both places had practically 100% conversion by Spanish and Portuguese missionaries. That did not prevent them from throwing out their colonial masters. The Filipinos fought not only the Spanish, but also the Americans. Also, on what basis are you saying that Christianity is responsible for the troubles in the north-east? Organisations like the ULFA in Assam and the UNLF (Manipur) are not Christian in character. Maybe ethinic differences and a failure to understand or address local issues is the reason why there is so much trouble in the north-east . 345743@desicritics.org Sun, 23 Nov 2008 03:16:25 EST http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-345741 GB "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing" Who perished on Cross? Thanks to messenger of cross for reserving hell for us - for making us perish, like they have done to so many natives everywhere. National integrity, anyone? 345741@desicritics.org Sun, 23 Nov 2008 03:12:36 EST http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-345738 CS: "Dear Kaffir and Kerty, Quite predictably, this so-called argument has ended up in idiotic chutiapa. I take full responsibility for precipitating this decline of commonsense and wasting the time of our esteemed DC community" BRILLIANT CS, YOU PROVE YOUR NAME ! 345738@desicritics.org Sun, 23 Nov 2008 02:51:50 EST http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-345737 Gowri: ""Christ came to us in human form to save us"" CS: Save me from what? whom? besides, it might be best if you speak for yourself and not "us" Dear Gowri, Read -I Corintians 1:18; it says " For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" So no point in arguing, some one has to fill the Hell also, or devil will be very disappointed!!!! 345737@desicritics.org Sun, 23 Nov 2008 02:46:16 EST http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-344187 Excerpts from MV Kamath: "But where do the missionaries get their money from and how much do they get? Available information lends credence to public apprehensions. Thus it is noted that in the year 2005-2006, these metropolitan cities, Chennai, Bengaluru and Mumbai received Rs 753.08 crore, Rs 464.09 crore and Rs 440.04 core respectively—all from foreign sources. Ananthpur district received Rs 288.01 crore and Hyderabad-Secunderabad Rs 236.08 crore. Apparently, Andhra Pradesh which has a Christian Chief Minister has consistently been one of the three states to receive such mind-boggling foreign aid. Christian leaders smilingly point that under the Constitution, propagation of religion is legally permissible. But what the Vatican and the various protestant organisations are seeking is not so much the spread of Christian faith as much as extension of the power of the church to undermine the cultural unity of India and break up the nation—a trick that must be exposed by all patriotic Indians. May it be remembered that when Pope John Paul II visited India (he had been barred from China) he made the point in a public statement that in the first millennium it was Europe that was converted, in the second it was Africa and henceforth it is Asia's turn. It was a slap in the face of India, a predominantly Hindu country, but quiet was maintained because Hindus with a greater culture believed in the ancient dictum: atithi devo bhava—guest should be treated as God. Pope John could not care less, if he hurt Indian sentiments by his indiscreet comments. The issue today is not conversion to another faith. Rather it is the deliberate move to break up India. Conversion inevitably destroys a local culture and is fundamentally subversive in content. Conversion, especially in tribal areas, leads to demographic disturbances which in turn lead to resentment. Resentment leads to violence. We condemn violence without trying to seek the reason behind it because it does not serve the interests of our secularists. Kandhamal is an excellent example of this submersion. In 1961, the Christian population there was just under 2 per cent. In 1971 this rose three times to 6 per cent. Thirty three years later, in 2001, the Christian population has risen to 27 per cent. The cleavage between Christian and non-Christian tribes has widened to such an extent that it has been the cause of social antagonism and killings. Christianity came to India even before it spread to Europe and it was accepted ungrudgingly. If today Christian efforts at conversion are strongly opposed it is because the loyalty of converts is turned towards Rome or to Protestant evangelical centres. There is clear evidence which confirms that Christian organisations are backing terrorism and separatist movements in India's North-East. The National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) was founded in 1989 and since its inception the NLFT has been engaged in an armed struggle to carve out a separate Christian nation—Tripura. The Baptist Church is known to back it. Christians entered Nagaland and Mizoram in the last quarter of the 19th century and this has led to the transformation of an entire culture which could lead to the isolation of an entire state from mainstream India with dire consequences. The protestant church is working havoc in India while the Union Government wilfully turns its head away. In a short time we are going to have another Kashmir in the North-East thanks to the indifference of Sonia Gandhi- dominated Congress. The first step to prevent further deterioration of the situation is not banning the Bajrang Dal but deporting all foreign missionaries and confiscating funds sent from abroad to undermine the essential unity of India. The sinister plan of the evangelists has to be exposed. The issue is not religion; it is foreign dominance through not -too-subtle means. Under the protection of the Constitution, foreign sources are determined to undermine the basic cultural structure of India which is impermissible. They should be summarily thrown out. The vanvasis of Orissa did not invite the evangelists; it is the evangelist who is imposing himself on the vanvasis under the protection of the Constitution. We are hung by our own petard. Australia's Prime Minister John Howard has asked Australian Muslims who want to live under Islamic sharia to leave the country. Pakistan does not permit conversion. Nor do so many other nations. There is no reason why India should suffer evangelists. The only way to stop the predatory ways of missionaries is to throw them out, bag and baggage. What is at stake in India is not Christianity as a faith but Christianity as a political weapon to take over India by means foul. " 344187@desicritics.org Wed, 29 Oct 2008 01:01:32 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-344185 Excerpts from Sandhya Jain: "To borrow Marxist terminology, there can be no doubt that the Christian leadership perceives itself as a vanguard for the en masse conversion of Hindu India, and feels emboldened by the political ascent of the Italian-born Congress president. Smt Sonia Gandhi has done much for her co-religionists under the UPA regime, putting the Christian cross on coins and sending an official delegation when the Vatican elevated a little known Kerala nun to sainthood. Sainthood is, of course, purely political, intended to spur more conversions, so that either a portion like the north-east can be partitioned a la East Timor (2002), or the Christian population upgraded into a decisive vote bank like the Muslim vote bank, so that it can have a decisive say in the polity. It is necessitated because charities run by the Albanian nun, Mother Teresa, who was given the Nobel Peace Prize to promote the Christian agenda, have come under a cloud in the West itself. It is pertinent that the widespread Hindu angst against evangelists owes much to a popular perception that the Christian population is much larger than admitted to census authorities, perhaps as high as seven per cent. Should evangelists succeed in raising numbers by another five-seven per cent, the combined minority vote bank would render Hindu vote ineffective and completely alter the political demography of the Indian Parliament and assemblies in several states. This is not a small threat, and the spreading confrontation with locally ignited Hindu populations suggests that the danger is real." 344185@desicritics.org Wed, 29 Oct 2008 00:55:34 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-343677 kerty #144: I enjoyed your comments, for its substance. I am not sure whether God created man, but I am 100% sure, Man created God, originally to inculcate discipline. Now God and religion have lost its purpose and became counter productive, in spreading anarchy and indiscipline among people. 343677@desicritics.org Thu, 23 Oct 2008 02:30:43 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-343667 Where is the good news if it is no longer news or good? Evangelists have nothing new to say By MSN Menon Are the Christian missionaries selling a new religion in India? No. They are not. They are selling what went out of this country more than two thousand years ago. Religions have borrowed copiously from each other. It is amazing how one sacred model has influenced so many others. Thus, the lives of all the great men of India—Rama, Krishna, Buddha—were modelled on Indra, the chief of the gods. And the Indra model itself had the authority of no less a scripture than the Rig Veda. The Rig Veda gives two full hymns to the birth of Indra. To the extent religions have borrowed from each other, they cannot be called original, thought today it is the claim of the Christian missionaries that Christianity is an original creed. Herbert J. Mueller, an authority on Christianity, has a different story. He says, many of the ideas and practices of Christianity came from other countries. Thus, the idea of God came from Babylon, dualism from Persia (of God and Satan) the drama of resurrection from the Syrian story of Adonis, Last Judgement from Egypt, worship of the Great Mother from Phrygia, the idea of Universal Law from Greece and Rome. Interestingly, the idea of Baptism came from India (Manu says that holy water should be poured over the child before cutting its umbilical cord.) And the idea of communion came from Persia. As for the concept of non-violence, it came from Buddhism. Then what is it that is original in Christianity? The Middle East (from the Nile to the Indus) was a major highway of ideas. Even the names of the law-givers sound similar. Thus, we have Manu in India, Minos in Egypt and Moses among the Jews. Even Maya (mother of Buddha) and Mary (mother of Jesus) sound similar. There was no sense of shame in imitating in those days. The idea was to bask in reflected glory. Sometimes to excel. Thus, as soon as Indra was born, he set in motion the Wheel of the Sun. And the Buddha turned the Wheel of the Law. The story of Indra's struggle against Vritra appears in Buddha's life as the struggle of Buddha against Mara. And the attributes of the Mahapurush were common to all gods and heroes. Agni was one of the great Vedic gods. Naturally, Buddha is compared to Agni. Artists depicted child Siddhartha going to school in a ram cart. Ram was the vehicle of Agni. The Sakhyas were worshippers of Agni. Thus there was much that was common between Agni and Buddha. Indra is also shown paying respect to an ascetic Buddha (Ascetics are supposed to be higher than the gods.) The Krishna story was familiar to Central Asia by the 2nd century BC, which explains the remarkable similarity in the stories of Krishna and Christ. Krishna belonged to the Yadava tribe. Christ belonged to the Yahuda race. Krishna was preceded by Balarama. Christ was preceded by John the Baptist. One of the missions of Krishna's birth was to kill his uncle Kansa, king of the Yadavas. Naturally, Kansa called for the murder of Krishna and all children below the age of two. This explains why Vasudeva took the Krishna child across the flooded Yamuna to the safety of Ambadi in Mathura. Similarly, Herod, the king of the Yahudis. Did not like the "wise men" hailing Jesus as "king of the Jews". He ordered the murder of Jesus. Which is why Joseph and Mary took baby Jesus and fled to Maturea (Mathura?) in Egypt. And, finally, look at the similarity of their names—Christ and Krishna! In their book "the Original Jesus" Elmer R.Guber, an eminent psychologist and Helger Kersten, a specialist on religious history, and author of the best-selling "Jesus lived in India" offer compelling evidence of extensive Buddhist influence on the life and teachings of Jesus. They argue that the Church had concealed the history of Jesus. We know little of the life of Jesus from his age of 12 to the days of his death. Today we know that Jesus was living among the Essene, a colony of Buddhist monks, who were perhaps sent to Egypt by Ashoka. The Vicar of Stuttgart (Germany) writes (1831): "The Christian church evolved from the community of the Essene." Dear Reader, I am not saying that Jesus did not exist. My point is: a religion made up of bits and pieces of other peoples' thoughts and practices has no right to call itself original. Certainly it has no right to abuse other religions. 343667@desicritics.org Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:24:09 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-343653 Is gau-mutra an obscenity that it had to be deleted ? lol what a fucking joke 343653@desicritics.org Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:21:16 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-343622 hey morris thanks. very generous of you! but the all the prizes for this thread have already been awarded. so, next time! i deserve no prize anyways, just the brickbats will do just fine! 343622@desicritics.org Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:30:55 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-343621 You guys are still at it. I got tempted reading about these awards. If there is a prize for running off the course here, there and any where as soon as a challager shows up that prize should go to CS. It should be named CS Diversion prize. He is the undisputed champion. 343621@desicritics.org Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:24:48 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-343617 Kaffir, Good story :). Unfortunately you still get the runners's up prize. it cannot be upraded retroactively. but, it's almost the same as the main prize...unnneees beees ka difference hai bus. 343617@desicritics.org Wed, 22 Oct 2008 15:07:21 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-343599 CS, I'm reminded of the story (and I'd be surprised if you don't know it already) by Siddharth G. where he posed a question to an abusive, old person about gifts brought to him that he (SG) didn't accept. :) Not saying that you are sending gifts of abuse to me, but the same principle applies. No, I wasn't pinning it (beatification etc.) on you, but that is the general observable trend among MSM and a certain section of Indian population - to look up in awe at Christianity while disparaging Hinduism. Different standards instead of having one. 343599@desicritics.org Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:02:49 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-343552 very well articulated article.I am really proud and impressed by the way christians have conducted themselves . as regards Chandra's foolish demand of a ban on entry of foreign missionaries ,what if the the USA imposed a similar ban on the VHP's activities in their country ?considering the USA is becoming a major support base both in terms of dollar funding as well as pseudo-intellectuals .Chandra ,i'd expect such non-sense from [EDITED] drinking desis not a smart Coke/Pepsi drinking NRI like you 343552@desicritics.org Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:39:34 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-343540 Kaffir, too bad, you have the prize whether you like it or not. as for someone applauding sainthood, beatification etc. i think you have the wrong dog if you are trying to pin it on me! not sure where you got that idea; but then again, there you go! anyways, the prize is in the mail and there's no turning back. chandra and morris are also in the "also ran" category, except nobody is quite sure where they ran 343540@desicritics.org Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:38:37 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-343535 CS, I wish I were interested in this winner/runner-up business or intellectual smack-downs, but I'm not. I'm more interested in knowing and discussing what I mentioned in comment # 42 (and an earlier one - #34) in this thread - some intellectual Indians/Hindus being highly critical of superstitions/miracles/actions pertaining to Hinduism, yet applauding/defending those related to Christianity (sainthood, beatification, proselytism - not conversion), in spite of the horrendous history of Christianity (which to some extent still continues today), instead of being critical of *both* actions. 343535@desicritics.org Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:05:03 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-343530 Dear Kaffir and Kerty, Quite predictably, this so-called argument has ended up in idiotic chutiapa. I take full responsibility for precipitating this decline of commonsense and wasting the time of our esteemed DC community. To put an end to this pointless non-debate, I hereby declare: Kerty: the undisputed winner of this argument Kaffir: a very close runner-up Gowri and Suresh also ran, at some distance from each other Congratulations!!! 343530@desicritics.org Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:34:28 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-343526 CS "religion is indeed based on "blind faith", while "secular humanism" is not driven by any faith, except of course the faith in human rationality" "Blind faith" is a self-serving characterization of religions of others - those who follow a religion do not share such characterization of their religion, nor do they believe there is anything blind about their convictions, but rather their convections have solid metaphysical and philosophical foundation born of higher truths. Similarly, your 'Blind faith' in secular humanism is not shared by all people, nor your characterization of it as scientific or rational. In fact, it is just one more cult of fanatics, equally bind in its beliefs and assumptions, equally fundamentalist and fanatic, willing to use force and militancy to advance its hegemony, using state to create its own neo-theocracy, creating its own bible of dogmas that people must accept on blind faith, and shares its contempt for all other faiths that a typical monotheism is known for. That what has preceded it is age of Jahalia - age of ignorance and darkness, that age of enlightenment, paradise on earth, and kingdom of the righteous awaits when rest of the world is conquered and converted to its creed and all the believers of 'false and blind' creeds are vanquished. That is why secular humanism is the ideological twin of its theological counterpart(monotheism) - another side of the same coin. And we can see them in same bed in India. 343526@desicritics.org Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:12:00 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-343524 CS, meet sarcasm. Sarcasm, say hello to CS. At least you were correct: you can't really manage much in arguments. Getting old? Quoting only part of my comment instead of reading and understanding the entire comment? That's what happens when you work with winner/loser paradigm which seems to drive your arguments here. 343524@desicritics.org Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:39:02 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-343522 Kaffir: ""Blind faith and belief in the face of overwhelming evidence needs to be criticized only in case of religions. Other vague concepts like secular humanism are above such scrutiny. ;)"" great job in elegantly arguing against youself!! amazing feat, quite unintentional I'm sure. as you eloquently point out, religion is indeed based on "blind faith", while "secular humanism" is not driven by any faith, except of course the faith in human rationality in dealing with whatever crap society happens to throw at humanity. No easy task for sure, and may set-backs all the time, but there is bowing down before so-called divine principles, revelations, nor eternal principles. agreed that you do a much better job at refuting your own argument than I could ever have managed :) 343522@desicritics.org Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:21:53 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/10/14/134027.php#comment-343516 Kerty: ""You have turned every thread and every post that has debated religious zealotry of xianity and islam into attacks on hinduism, and against posters who present the arguments."" he he he! entirely predictable and predicted. and they say that studying human behaviour is not exact science!! 343516@desicritics.org Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:00:47 EDT