Under-age Drinking and the Family

My principle is health. Anything solid or liquid or gaseous that is harmful to my health in the short term or long term, I cut it out. I thus follow the medical theory that in small quantities, alcohol could be beneficial.

I treat alcohol as bitter medicine, to be taken in very small quantities, which warms up my innards on cold days and helps in digestion (temporarily). Now, who would want to gulp down a bottle of cough syrup or digestive liquid in one go?

I also treat alcohol as a calorie-rich liquid, the intake of which therefore automatically undergoes concious restriction as I am in the low-calorie+fitness frame of mind to lose weight.

I have alcohol laden spirits very occasionally, say once a month, or maybe even with lesser frequency, and that too with heavy food. It takes me about an hour to down a full glass of beer.

At home, my father also used to drink rarely, (only while entertaining guests who were drinkers), and that too in very small quantities. As a kid, I sometimes used to hanker for the taste of beer, just to see why adults liked it so much, (even though I hated it), and used to get ONE SIP. That was all.

I think the medical effects of gradual alcohol poisoning and addiction, if alcohol is consumed in large quantities, should be made clear to kids from a very young age. Kids should be made extremely health concious. Unless a person is deliberately hell-bent on self-destruction and suicide, why would one want to spoil his/her health unnecessarily?

Unfortunately, it is not so self-apparent that things harmful to health would be automatically avoided, else there would not be a need to have such a focus on campaigns to cut down smoking (as an example). Alcohol drinking, especially when packaged well as a social habit, with cute glasses, nice environment, etc can be the in-thing to do, and a massive attraction.

I am sorry but I feel this article is *heavily* biased and contains only negative information about alcohol. and some of it is false.

Alcohol in moderation is not bad for you. Actually, red wine has been shown to have positive effects on one's health.

In my culture (italian), we grow up around alcohol. It is not a "forbidden fruit" and we are taught to respect it. Many italians have a glass of wine or two with each meal (not breakfast) and we regard that as completely commonplace. and we are not a group of alcoholic, morally-adrift partiers.

In order to sustain liver damage you would have to be an alcoholic over a period of time. this is not something that will happen even to a college-aged weekend drinker.

your assertion that once a parent allows a child to drink alcohol, it is a "major moral point off" is judgmental at best. My parents exposed me to alcohol at about 14. I was allowed to have a teensy glass of wine at special occasions. Alcohol waas demystified for me. I did not have to sneak it. I did not feel it was some big mystery and I had to go binge drink. I knew how to drink responsibly because my parents modeled that behavior. In turn I was never irresponsible, never binge drank and NEVER drank and drove.

I agree that there is a problem with college kids and binge drinking. and where does that come from? misinformation and parents who do not wake up to reality. THey tell their kids "no child of mine will ever drink, it will kill you, blah blah blah" and immediately that child wants to drink. It is the same crap that happens with sex, actually. Parents need to have open and honest communication with their children. Tell them alcohol is something to be used by adults in moderation. Don't make it a huge deal, but inform them of the real dangers, like drinking and driving and impared judgement.

I got roaring drunk once while I was in safe company and hated it!! I was about 21 at the time. I like whiskey on the rocks but I am not a habitual drinker and I grew up in a Punjabi family where everyone drank.

My dad used to have a peg a day and once I graduated from college whenever we went with our parents to parties we were offered whatever we wanted to drink.

I didn't become a drunkard nor did any of my friends.

Another thing I love hanging out at TGIF on weekends but again the rule remains one person has to be sober for driving back if the other gets tipsy.

Alcohol like sugar should be had in moderation.

Forget the health benefits for a while. The important thing here is that under age drinking is *illegal*. However stupid and regressive our laws may seem to the "intellectuals" and "broad minded" few, we still have to abide by them.

Unfortunately, breaking the law has always been considered "cool" by dumb kids and dumber parents.

The subjective term "moderation" with respect to alcohol or "social drinking" is meant for adults and not kids.

Let kids enjoy the "therapeutic benefits" of alcohol when they are of the legal age.

And keeping in sync with this "end of the world" kind of post, what can we expect in future ? Parents handing their kid a joint saying "bahar toh karte hi hein"?

Deepti L and smallsquirrel both, I totally agree with you on many aspects.
Wine (wine, and some of the malt whiskeys) is shown to be good in moderation, not most other alcohols; and specially stuff such as beer is not healthy no matter whether you drink less or more.
Drinking in moderation is good (I do the same), however, a lot of people cannot understand that (refer to recent incidents where kids have actually died in accidents involving drunken driving after parties).
Further, the article above refers to a news article that talks about how, the earlier a person starts, the more they consume later in order to get the same high.

@ Chaitanya - 'Let kids enjoy the "therapeutic benefits" of alcohol when they are of the legal age.'

Cough syrup and many other liquid tonics sometimes have upto 25 % alcohol content.( On an average it varies from 5% to 10%, which is in the range of red-wine).

Many kids are given cough syrup/tonics when sick. So, they are directly consuming alcohol. Now if alcohol consumption is illegal for kids, then it logically follows that consumption of cough syrup too is illegal for kids!

I still think the article that you reference contains "scare tactic" information that is less than true.

like when you say that if a person starts early that they will drink more and more to get high. Well that assumes that people drink to get drunk, which is fallacious. many people do not.

it's really just information given by people who want to scare others into never touching alcohol.

and beer is not unhealthy. many cultures drink beer on a daily basis as well. look at germany, belgium and austria!!!!

it is all about moderation!

Is alcohol a recreational drug, a party drug, a social drink, a theraputic medicine?

Would you mind being operated by a surgeon who has consumed alochol, or flying in the plane with a pilot enjoying his theraputic medicine while flying?

Why do we need to judge if alchohol being consumed is in moderation - if such judgement is deemed necessary, how would one enforce such judgement?

While I was growing up, Alchohol consumption was demonized as a single-most cause of financial ruin, lack of social standing, fights and abuse in a family, constant source of discord between spouses, brawls among youth and treated as anti-social behavior. Gandhiji was so much against alchohol he treated banishing alchohol to be a major issue of women's welfare, and organized women's protests against alchohol consumption. Alchohol has come a long way since than. But what has changed since than to make such a radical shift in society's attitude towards alchohol? I suspect that social and cultural infra-structure had pushed the alchohol to a fringe behaviour, but as social and cultural infra-structures are getting dismenteled, so are behaviours once guided and controlled by them. So alchohol has come of age, has become a symbol of progress and modern outlook. There is a confidence that its abuses can be moderated by laws.

Parents handing their kid a joint saying "bahar toh karte hi hein"?

Chaitanya, I have yet to see desi parents handing a joint to their kids. Weed is easily available and yes I plan to talk to my kids about it. Once kids reach teenage years some are wise enough to stay on the right track and others go down the destructive path knowingly.

We all have seen that growing up.

cannot help notice re: point 1-6

osama would nod with you

;)

(caveat: the comment should be taken like tequila in mexico)

temp, I don;t get it!

T

Many of moslems I know shun alchohol because they think it is against Islam. Is it true that it is against Islam? And how does that reconcile with highly over bent of huge body of urdu poetry, Shayaris, Kawwalis and Gazzals that euolige alchohol so profusely?

Just because Osama likes something, should we take that thing as necessarily a bad thing? Conversely, just because Osama dislikes certain thing, is that a reason enough for that thing to be necessarily a good thing? Osama does not eat shit, does that mean anybody who does not eat shit is Osama? Think about it, Osama likes so many things that are considered Islamic and part of Koranic teachings, does that mean those Islamic things are necessarily bad things and practicing them amounts to becoming Osama? Throwing Taliban, Osama, Hitler, Kahanite etc in a debate is a lazy but effective way to divert and dispose off opposite views.

the most extensive study by harvard medical school establishes that 2-3 drinks a day are beneficial. beyond 3 drinks leads to major problems including verbal diahorea (sp!) on DC. less than 1 drink has no advantage. it is not just red wine, but ANY alcohol.

Commonsense 14

Your comments make a lot of sense. However, I wish you had given a reference. I found what might have been your source.http://www.jointogether.org/news/features/2006/harvard-researcher-halts.html.

M.J.Stampford has published a lot. You might be interested in a publication , he with others, N Engl J Med 316 (19) 1174-80. They state that along with a large number of other studies, their study of 89,568 women between 34 and 59 years of age, suggest that moderate alcohol intake may contribute to breast cancer.

My concern is that too often medicine and medical research forget Paracelus's observation made back about 1525, Alle Ding sind Gift, und nichts ohn Gift; allein die Dosis macht, daß ein Ding kein Gift ist. That is to say, the dosage is all important. We know that at least some of alcohol's effects are determined by body weight and perhaps by gender.

paul7anderson

ok so when should people start taking alcohol? when they reach 21? bcos otherwise they are UNDERAGE. i hate this mentality. the minimun legal age is something the law sets to make things easier for itself. the law also says that anyone under 18 cannot consent to sex. and i hear people saying how adults (19 yr olds) are raping innocent children (17 yr old 11 month old).

so how old is this congress MLA son? i mean lets be practical. if these guys are in their late teens then theyre not gonna die or anything just bcos theyre a couple yrs short of legal age requirement.

but yes it is a problem if say adolescents or 15 yr olds start drinking. that too is subjective. and im not even talking about the harms and benefits of alcohol. whatever the harms of it are they are the same for someone slightly under legal age and someone slightly above. so please stop freaking out.

smallsqurrel 3

I am curious, what is the rate of alcoholism in Italy as compared to India and the United States. I went to dogpile and asked for alcoholism and country. I got two interesting answers. WrongDiagnosis and Cure Research. They both gave the same data. The data was by extrapolation, and was given to the single individual if you can believe it. That is the US was listed as having 18,302,193 alcoholics and a total population of 293,655,405. Both "sources" had Italy and India with about 5.5% alcoholics as compared to the US with about 6%.

The actual information would be very interesting.

Anand 15

Did I miss something? Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.

paul, I do not know the rates for alcoholism in Italy, but I think you are making a connection that is not necessarily a valid one.. which is that people who are exposed to alcohol early are more likely to be alcoholics. the most likely factor for alcoholism is family history of alcoholism.

paul7anderson

#16 is for the author Deeptia.
sorry for mistake

smallsquirrel 19

I am sorry i did not make myself clear. I was only asking if there was any data on alcoholism that might reflect on attitude towards alcohol. I think you are right that the most likely factor for alcoholism is family alcoholism.

I can not put my hands on references quickly but there is some evidence for a gene that predisposes a person for alcoholism and other addictions. This would tie in with your statement about the family connection.

I have not kept up with the field. Gallo wine supported some research by K.C. Wilhelmsen when he was at UC San Fransisco some ten years ago. I can get references if you are interested.

paul... ah, yes then we are in agreement. I did some research on alcoholism myself, but that was about 5-7 years ago when I was working as a consultant to the department of substance abuse and mental health services editing a treatment improvement protocol manual on group treatment for substance abuse.

there is a LOT of evidence that genetics plays a huge role in one's disposition toward alcoholism (or any kind of substance abuse, for that matter). I simply do not have time to gather it all up either. but I would guess that a quick visit to the website of any reputable treatment center such as the betty ford clinic or AA would point one in the direction of resources and research.

Urban stress is contributing to yet another problem- what is interesting to note is- it is self-destructive, if past limits- be it longterm- liver damage, short term- death due to DUI or plain addiction leading to economic, familial instability. This is such a personal choice like sex or drugs.
Currently India has an alarming rise in AIDS cases but refuses to openly acknowledge it- these must be the "willful" ways of the modern generation to ensure population control. I can do nothing but raise my glass to say, "Bless you for sacrificing your life for this country."

smallsquirrel 22


I am generally going to agree with you.

Kirk Wilhelmsen was kind enough to give me a current reference of his that is available free on line ".Association between single nucleotide polymorphisms in the mu opioid receptor gene (OPRM1) and self-reported responses to alcohol in American Indians."You can either access it on PubMed or BMC Med Genet 2008 April 23;9;35. The paper gives 104 references and PubMed lists 123 related articles which very completely cover what is the current thinking on the genetic basis of addiction.

paul, but native americans are an exception to the genetic rule as most are thought to be extra sensitive to alcohol... and have a higher rate of pre-disposition to alcoholism. so they are the outlier, so-to-speak. if you want to look at general trends, they are not a good population. they are a good study on genetic pre-disposition, but other social factors weigh especially heavily for them, so it's difficult to pry the two apart without an in-depth study of BOTH inputs.

by the way i think indian guys make a fool out of themselves when they get drunk. we are just not cool when we're drunk. and also we get drunk too easily after one shot only.

smallsquirrel 25

I am sorry that I explain myself so poorly. What you say is entirely right. The article I suggested is primarily dealing with American Indians. The points you raise are discussed in it. I cited it because it quite recent and gives a good survey of what is current thought. The references cited earlier would probably cover all that has been published in peer reviewed journals. The effect of genetics on alcoholism is quite well established and research is now looking at special cases.

This has been an interesting experience for me. I make a comment and often I get a response. I have had two essays published and neither got any response. I guess that I should not be concerned, Dr. Bhaskar Dasgupta wrote an excellent essay "Does Every Cloud Have a Sell Order Lining? and it did not do much better

paul, it all has to do with peoples' personal interests. I have posted some articles that I thought would not garner much attention and they ended up being very controversial. and some articles I thought were great and no one pays a bit of attention. it's all hit or miss.

I am interested in this topic because I used to research it and I am generally interested in social issues, especially cross-cultural ones.

smallsquirrel 28

You mention that you did research in alcoholism and you are interested in social issues. It has been found that association between single nucleotide polymorphisms in the mu opioid receptor gene (OPRM1) predisposes a person to alcoholism.

Wilhelmsen had earlier found a similar indicator for what was eponymically called Wilhelmsen-Lynch syndrome but is now called fromtotemperal dementia. There are many other areas where predisposition to a condition can be determined by genetic analysis. As more research is done, a swab from a person's mouth could tell more about a person than we might want to know. Will this be a social issue?

Commonsense 14

I was surprised when I did not get a response from you. I thought something might have happened to you. However,you are still writing, I read your comments on Chandra essay on Bush.

I call attention to the fact that you quote a researcher, who gives a series of talks supported by a beer company. Work that did not even consider dosage as affected by weight. I then give you a reference by this author where he found that even moderate alcohol seemed to promote breast cancer. Why do I not deserve a reply

paul anderson,

sorry, i did not intend to ignore your comment. i was just whiling away the past two weeks on the beaches of barcelon, ingesting unimanigable quantities of estrella beer. i might still get cancer from it, although it could also be due to all the sun as well. everything under the sun causes cancer, including of course, the sunshine. versteht sie?

commonsense 31 Ja