Book Review: The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy, by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt

Good review, but after reading this book, I thought that the authors had made a convincing case. I guess this is very subjective. You were not convinced. I was.

Vinod J:

""I think the Iraq invasion was the result of Dubya's and Tony's desire to remake the map of the middle-east. Look at it from George's and Tony's point of view. Both are extremely religious men who believe that God has sent them to earth for a reason. They want to bring peace and democracy to the middle-east. How do they go about it? They need to start somewhere. Where should they start? With Saudi Arabia? No. The people there are hardcore Wahhabis who will not easily accept democracy. Also, the rulers of Saudi Arabia are good friends of America. Iraq on the other hand was ripe for democracy. Its population is relatively secular. Its ruler was an enemy of the West...So they got a few intelligence reports 'sexed' up, whipped up public opinion and started the war.""

Say What? George and Tony are Holy Map-Makers and lovers of genuine democracy????

""They [George and Tony] want to bring peace and democracy to the middle-east.""

Really?? is about all i can muster. Yes, I know that's not an argument...yet, "really??""

Five years ago, Atlantic Monthly commissioned two academics, John Mearsheimer of Chicago University and Stephen Walt of Harvard, to write a significant article about the influence of the Israeli lobby on American foreign policy. When the piece was at last completed, the magazine declined to publish, deeming it too hot for delicate American palates. It eventually appeared in 2005, in the London Review of Books, provoking one of the most bitter media and academic rows of recent times. The authors were accused of antisemitism, and attacked with stunning venom by some prominent US commentators. Mearsheimer and Walt obviously like a fight, however, for they have now expanded their thesis into a book.

Vinod,

To conclude, I would say that M & W have an interesting theory, but I was not fully convinced that the picture they formed by connecting various multi-coloured dots is not a red herring.

What a polite way of calling bullshit!

You did a very nice job of examining the red herring produced by these over-funded academics. Unfortunately, too many fools have swallowed this red herring along with the sauce and have pronounced it "very good".

Lets look at the two penultimate paragraphs of your fine article.

M & W also say that the Israel lobby has forced the US to be confrontational towards Syria and seek a regime change in Syria even though the Syrian government had provided important intelligence about al-Qaida after 9/11. According to M & W, if it were not for the Israel lobby, the US would not be so antagonistic towards Syria; there would be no Syria Accountability Act; there might be a peace treaty between Israel and Syria; Syria might not be backing the Hezbollah in Lebanon. Here I ask - can't there be an different explanation for this? Ever since the demise of the Soviet Union, the US has been in earch of new enemies. The arms lobby needs the US to have enemies in order to justify weapons sales to the US armed forces. Couldn't this lobby have played a role in demonising Syria?

Which brings me to another point. There are various lobbies - the arms lobby, the oil lobby, and other special interests - who would be interested in skewing US policy on the middle-east. Maybe these lobbies have played as big a role as the Israel lobby in getting US foreign policy towards Israel to the point it is now.

The fact of the matter is that the Olmert "regime" (one hesitates to call this pack of idiots a government) has attempted a number of times to approach the Assad regime with peace/surrender proposals of various kinds and heretofore it has been the United State government that has put the kibosh on them.

I've seen this in the Hebrew press at least five different times. This, in spite of the fact that the HizbAllah rocket bombardment of this country was co-ordinated from Syria - which was barely attacked at all in the last "Lebanon" War.

Let's note further that the recent failed summit in Paris under the sponsorship of Nicolas Sarkozy, the one that was supposed to bring Olmert and Assad, was done in defiance of American policy, rather than in furtherance of it.

Parenthetically, you mention the "demnise of the Soviet Union". I would ask you to note that while the USSR does not exist any more, the Russian Federation most assuredly does, stretching over 10 time zones from the White Russian border to Alaska. And since the accession of Vladimir Putin as dictator in his various guises, he has been very busy resurrecting the Russian Empire and re-expanding its zone of influence. That zone of influence includes Iran, and by extension, Syria, Lebanon, HizbAllah and Hamas. In addition, both HizbAllah and Hamas have been busily propagandizing Russian speakers living in Israel in Russian. An article about this "Russian resurrection" will be up-coming soon, G-d willing, at Blogcritics Magazine. But I digress....

The oil and banking establishment in America - which supports the Arabs - has been driving American foreign policy for the last 75 years. Anyone who does even the most minimal and careless examination of who sits on what corporate boards (or boards of governors) will see that the American arms industry is tied closely with the oil and banking lobby in the United States. Their most vocal representative in the State Department was George Marshall, who was against the establishment of a sovereign Jewish entity here as an "historic error" and was so much against this that when instructed by President Truman to instruct the American ambassador to vote in favor of partitioning the British Mandate here in 1947, he quit in a huff. The American president had to instruct the American UN ambassador himself.

Mearsman and Walt would have Americans and others forget basic facts of history so that they might blame Jews in America (and in Israel) for the deaths of American soldiers in Iraq and for the economic problems consequent to the tremendous amount of money wasted in the swamps of the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, I don't care if that happens - it doesn't harm me here in the mountains of Samaria (yes Vinod, I live in Israel). My attitude is to shoot first and ask questions later, and when I'm on duty guarding the village I live in, that philosophy is the governing one.

But many American Jews who do their best to run away from the stigmata of being Jewish face a real danger if Americans are stupid enough to believe Mearsman and Walt and similar propagandists. They will be attacked in anti-Jewish pogroms if America's economy starts to fall apart. There is loads of Jew-hatred on the web in the States, and in essence, the web is just a projection of feelings that are widely held, but whose holders are too lazy or apathetic to act on. Eventually, though, the anger will overcome the apathy and laziness and and the American media will either be covering up pogroms or blowing them up to get viewers and readers.

Commonsense, yes, Really! I REALLY believe the Iraq invasion was not about oil or money. If it was just oil, the US could have made a deal with Saddam for its supply. Bush and Blair made a huge error of judgement. However, I believe their intention was primarily good, that they wanted to bring democracy to the middle-east, starting with Iraq. Both of them thought that Iraq would be an easy nut to crack. Imagine the plaudits they would have got if they could do in Iraq what US forces did in Japan or Germany after World War II.

Ruvy, I'm glad you liked my review.

# 6

bbbutt, bbbuttt is about all i can muster! unusual for somebody like me terminally afflicted with verbal diarrhoea....but i will let this pass..."fools rush in...."

some relevant links:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

here is video of a live debate with the authors...(in many segments)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crbbNCvngOs

Vinod:

""If it was just oil, the US could have made a deal with Saddam for its supply.""

That's one way of looking at it. Another perspective on the same issue is that there is a world of a difference between having access to a "supply" of oil that others with the same buying power can have AND between trying to have total control over the world's second largest supply of oil, particularly in view of a rising China with its energy requirements and with its rising purchasing power AND the decline of the US dollar and economy. Just a thought!!

Spreading democracy by true believers, just for the love of it???!!! Great thought, if self-delusion is the ultimate goal.


David Harvey _The New Imperialism_ (Oxford University Press)

Vinod,

Having expressed my positive views of what you write generally, I wish to call your attention to why I think the American regime is really in Iraq, as opposed to the baloney it hands out.

1. The threat of weapons of mass destruction being made in Iraq was real. But Saddam Hussein, realizing that he was in real trouble with George Bush and the men who manipulate him, shipped these weapons overland in trucks to Syria - which stored them in the Bika'a in Lebanon. The Israeli government was pretty much ordered to follow a losing strategy in Lebanon, and never attacked the Bika'a. So, it should be no wonder that they were never found in Iraq....

Can you guess who they are aimed at now?

2. The Saudis are business partners of the Bush's. More precisely, George Bush Sr. is a consultant for the Saudi monarchy that his own father helped bring to power in Arabia. In fact, the Bush's and the bin-Ladens know each other. It was a pack of Wahhabi thugs who attacked the World Trade Center in 2001, but going to war with the Saudis would be the equivalent of pissing on the bosses shoes. So, someone else had to be the target of the righteous anger in the States. Voila ici - there was this nasty thug in Iraq (that the United States had backed in the eighties and then double-crossed in 1990) and he was the perfect target. It gave the Americans the excuse to be permanently in the Middle East, and a real target to demonize. I'm not defending the bum - he deserved to hang at the hands of an Iraqi court. But the Iraqi people got the shaft for a dozen years (1991-2003) and now the situation there is one of war, with some parts of the country prosperous, and some parts reduced to utter desolation.

AIPAC? AIPAC is just a bunch of American Jewish blowhards who figure that they can do some "good" with a big fat checkbook and lots of trips to Israel. When they first read the Mearsman and Walt "report" they were probably saying to themselves "alevái" (it should only be so).

cs:

However, I believe their intention was primarily good, that they wanted to bring democracy to the middle-east, starting with Iraq. Both of them thought that Iraq would be an easy nut to crack.

what does this say?

Temporal,

What does this say? Somebody's been imbibing too much Kool-Aid or perhaps Mike's Hard Lemonade.

As for a "hard nut to crack"...hmm, there are nuts and then there are nuts. In India, the synonym for a nut is "crack" as in "abey woh bilkul crack hai"....

If Vinod's beliefs are to be believed, apparently some holy map-makers were misled by their God, and their "primarily good intentions" or perhaps "bad intelligence" (an oxymoron right there), so at the end of the day, nobody is at fault, give or a take a few hundred thousand dead, maimed, uprooted. However, democracy in the middle-east just around the corner...or is it?

I "loved" the debates very early on when this tragedy began unfolding. The topic for today is "Can Democracy be Forced Upon a Society". And talking heads, for and against the motion, pondered the issue with passion, reinforcing the delusion that indeed the spread of democracy was the reason behind the nightmare. A media induced Kool Aid for sure. Your very own Michael Ignatieff waxing eloquent along the same lines until he decided to have the predictable "second thoughts". However, what still irks me is Christopher Hitchens' about face...what a waste of "good intelligence" as opposed to the "bad or the sexed up...".

Vinod:

""Imagine the plaudits they would have got if they could do in Iraq what US forces did in Japan or Germany after World War II.""

Just Imagine!! Plaudits for the "punditry". Just like the expected flowers and the sweets that mysteriously did not materialize.

As for the vacuous comparisons between Japan/Germany, there is a well established discipline called history whose practitioners continually warn against comparisons that are wrenched out of their "TEMPORAL" (!!) and social contexts, and presented as ahistorical models. But I am as usual, getting ahead of myself....

Vinod:

""Imagine the plaudits they would have got if they could do in Iraq what US forces did in Japan or Germany after World War II.""

Just Imagine!! Plaudits for the "punditry". Just like the expected flowers and the sweets that mysteriously did not materialize.

As for the vacuous comparisons between Japan/Germany and the nightmare that is now Iraq, there is a well established discipline called history whose practitioners continually warn against comparisons that are wrenched out of their "TEMPORAL" (!!) and social contexts, and presented as ahistorical models. But I am as usual, getting ahead of myself....

[EDITED - IRRELEVANT]

Perhaps, Vinod, you would like to see a AIPAC through a slightly different lens - the lens that shows them for the gullible fools they truly are.... Try my analysis at Blogcritics Magazine on for size....

[IRRELEVANT - BAITING]

editors, guilty as charged!

I admit I have not read the book nor the article. My overall impression of the US foreign policy is very much in line M & W as discussed in this article. Many a times US vetoes of the UN resolutions made absolutely no sense unless you see them in the context of the lobby. US could not speeak against blatant injutice that Israel practiced particularly with respect to illegal settlements. You may disagree with M & W on minor points here and there but I think overall they are not far from truth. I disagee with Joseph. It is no red herring.

Morris, I not only disagree with M&W on not-so-minor points here and there, I also disagree with their overall conclusion - that the Israeli lobby is the prime reason for most US actions in the middle-east.

Commonsense, M&W state categorically that the Iraq War was not for oil. According to them, the US invaded Iraq in order to keep Israel safe.

Morris,

You admit to not having read Mearsman and Walt (an understandable lapse) and not having read Vinod's article (really, it isn't that long!).

If you read most of the newspapers in India, or follow its media (I'm guessing that you live in India) you'll find it hard not to agree with Mearsman and Walt. Indeed, if you follow CNN, the BBC, AP. CBC, Reuters, Agence France Press and Ha'aretz here in Israel, you'll find it hard not to agree with Mearsman and Walt. All of these press outlets express the views of the American oil and banking establishment and its many puppets world wide. News has become much like a Big Mac - identical garbage served up round the world with the same taste, made from the same ingredients. You can get the same Big Mac in Moscow as you can in St. Petersburg or Delhi or Sao Paulo, or even, if you'll pardon the expression, St. Paul, Minnesota.

And the American oil and banking establishment is serving up Mearsman and Walt as its Big Mac on "the Jewish Lobby".

So, Morris, would you like cheese on that Big Mac? Fries? A Coke? Would you like to Supersize that order for just 30 rupees more?

Folks, let's take a brief look at what Israel would look like if the "Jewish Lobby" indeed was the tail wagging the American dog. Let us see what be reality if Mearsheimer and Walt were indeed right.

First of all, there would be a huge American base in Haifa (with all the attendant problems of prostitution and rape that come with American bases). School kids would come daily to see the base of the American Mediterranean Fleet. American influence would be endemic here. There would be another huge American base near Dimona, so the Americans could keep firm control of the Israel nuclear missile capability. The shekel would have been long abandoned for the dollar, with local coins minted in dollars and cents, just as they are in Liberia or Panamá. It is likely that a good part of the electric grid here would work on 110 volts, just like the American system, to accommodate the huge number of American bureaucrats who would be located here.

The American Embassy would be in Jerusalem, rather than in Tel Aviv, and it would be located less than a stone's throw from the prime minister's office, so that the American Ambassador, who would be the equivalent of the British High Commissioner in pre-WWII Cairo, Delhi or Baghdad, would be able to transmit the orders daily from Washington (the administration) or New York (AIPAC).

The American Internal Revenue Service, the equivalent of the UK's Inland Revenue or Révénue Canada, would have large offices in either TA or J-lem. Israel Broadcasting would have at least five or six hours in English broadcasting daily to communicate with the Christian evangelicals as well as American Jews. The American Cultural Center (run by the State Department), presently a modest library south of downtown J-lem, would be a huge complex housing, among other things, AMEX, DHL, Fed-Ex, and office of the US Postal Service and very likely AP, CNN, Fox, CBS, NBC, and ABC Jerusalem offices. Not far away, to accommodate the huge numbers of Americans in J-lem, would be Target Jerusalem, and perhaps even a branch of A&S or Macy's.

Burger King, where I used to manage in St. Paul, would have a bunch of restaurants packed to the gills with Americans complaining that they couldn't get bacon-double cheeseburgers - and instead of typing this from Ma'ale Levona, I'd be likely managing the lunch rush in one of them, making sure that customers got the right order, hot, fresh and withing three minutes of having walked through the door.

Judea and Samaria, where I now live, would be packed with Jews, having long been annexed to the State, and Arabs would be encouraged to leave. Right now, as I type this, I hear the mosque for calling congregants for early afternoon prayers. This sound would likely not be heard here. Jews would live in the valley north of Ma'ale Levona, there would be no gate around the village, I would not be required to sit guard duty, and my sons could hike down the hill from the village north to Ariel, or ride their bikes along the shuttle road leading to Highway 60, and visit girlfriends in neighboring villages if they wanted to.

It is likely that South Lebanon would be under Israeli control, along with the eastern third of the Sinai (including el-Arish and Sharm es-Sheikh). American and Israeli troops would be patrolling the Jordanian border with Arabia Syria and Iraq, and Americans and Israelis would see to it that the oil flowed uninterrupted from Mosul to Haifa - likely from an independent Kurdistan.

Life would much better here (for my wife and me anyway). My kid just called me asking the next bus from Ariel to J-lem. If AIPAC was the tail wagging the American dog, he wouldn't have to - one would be leaving every 20 minutes or so.

Life is hard here, jobs are hard to find, and American officials are always yakking on and on like old yentas about the "rights of the poor Palestinians", the South Syrian Arabs who daily dream up new ways to kill us off. A couple of weeks ago, it was a front loader. Who knows what their fertile minds will come up with next!?

Terrorism? There wouldn't be any terrorism - that would be reserved for others, elsewhere....

None of these would be the case if Mearsheimer and Walt were right. But they are not, and it's a damned shame.

Ruvy, I don't agree with your comment (#22). If the Israel lobby were to control US policy on the middle-east, the US would have bombed Iran by now! Since the Americans know when to toe the Israeli line and when not to, I doubt if this will ever happen.

(On a slightly humorous and irreverent note, taking a leaf out of Common sense's book), if the Israel lobby were really, really strong, Shekels and Agora would have replaced Dollars and Cents. US restaurants would serve only Kosher food. Sabbath would be strictly observed throughout the US. Buses, trains and planes will come to a halt at 6 p.m. on Friday and stay put till 6 p.m. on Saturday. All American men will wear black hats and have ringlets etc. There will be a booming market for women's false hair. The Israeli embassy would be the biggest and tallest building in the United States.

Vinod:

""Commonsense, M&W state categorically that the Iraq War was not for oil. According to them, the US invaded Iraq in order to keep Israel safe."

True, but I uttered not a single evaluative word about the M&W argument. Just provided some links to a live debate they engaged in.

As for oil, the fact is that when almost every ministry and important building was raised to the ground, including the incredible museums, the oil ministry was the only one defended and left standing. I agree that there will never be a document (the smoking gun) stating clearly that "it's about the crude, dude". So I will have to leave it at that.

Vinod:

""Commonsense, M&W state categorically that the Iraq War was not for oil. According to them, the US invaded Iraq in order to keep Israel safe."

True, but I uttered not a single evaluative word about the M&W argument. Just provided some links to a live debate they engaged in. The Israeli lobby does play a role and there is no reason why this role should not be discussed publicly, by renowned scholars of international studies at U of Chicago and Harvard, without inviting the charge of anti-Semitism. On the other hand, it is hard to believe that the US, like any other country, will do anything unless it fits in with its overall interests. States have no permanent allies or friends, they only have interests. This is true not just for the US but for all countries, and certainly for powerful states that now face challenge from a number of contenders such as China (and to some extend the hype of India rising orchestrated mainly in the US to counter China).

As for oil, the fact is that when almost every ministry and important building was raised to the ground, including the incredible museums, the oil ministry was the only one defended and left standing. I agree that there will never be a document (the smoking gun) stating clearly that "it's about the crude, dude". Much of it can be ultimately traced to the energy issue adn the fact that China (and later perhaps India) already has rising energy demands. And China, together with Japan is one of the largest provider of loans to the US. China has been for sometime, looking for alternative energy/oil supplies in Africa, but at the end of the day, the main supply is in the Middle East, and in the coming years, control of that oil, not just the ability to buy it, will be the major prize. And that too is just a matter of a few more decades before it too fizzles out. So for the moment, crudely put, "it's the crude dude" or "tel ka khel". The American support initially, of the Taliban (believe it or not!) was precisely about building a pipeline from the Central Asian oil producing nations, thru Afghanistan. Their support of dicatators in Kazhakistan and others in the region is all about oil. Spreading democracy???!!?? Oh well!!

israel is the main cause of the middle east crisis. everything is done for its interests.

If the Israel lobby were to control US policy on the middle-east, the US would have bombed Iran by now!

I don't remember writing a single word about Iran in comment #22, Vinod. In fact I just read the whole comment over, and Iran was not mentioned at all. Where did you get this?

I did say this about the external borders of my country:

It is likely that South Lebanon would be under Israeli control, along with the eastern third of the Sinai (including el-Arish and Sharm es-Sheikh). American and Israeli troops would be patrolling the Jordanian border with Arabia, Syria and Iraq, and Americans and Israelis would see to it that the oil flowed uninterrupted from Mosul to Haifa - likely from an independent Kurdistan.

Not a peep about Iran. Maybe, you should go check a map again....

As for your attempts at parody, a student I went to college with (back when the dinosaurs roamed the planet) wrote something about the whole world converting to be Jews.

Oy vey!! Spare me! That's the last thing we need!

We have enough trouble with the fourteen millions of us there are now. Then we have to talk about the Pashtun waking up from the Taliban wine of madness they have been imbibing from Deoband for the last few decades and embracing Torah (they are descendants of the other Tribes of our people, supposedly "lost". They are not Jews, but they are Hebrews, sons of Israel). It'll be a wonderful thing when it happens - but the mechanics of it all may not seem so wonderful when it happens.

Someone else on this comment thread, wrote, "The American support initially, of the Taliban (believe it or not!) was precisely about building a pipeline from the Central Asian oil producing nations, thru Afghanistan. Their support of dicatators in Kazhakistan and others in the region is all about oil."

He is dead on the money. And Mearsheimer and Walt are trying to distract Americans and others from the reality of who really rules their country - the oil and banking establishment - the same one that views a Jewish entity in Eretz Yisrael as an historic error.

Ruvy

My apologies for not the lack of clarity. In comment #22, you do not refer to Iran. However, you list out various possibilities and eventualities if the 'Jewish' tail wags the US dog. My response was that, I do not agree with you. If the Israel lobby controlled US policy on the middle-east, none of the possibilities listed by you will come true. Instead, the US would have attacked Iran.

My tongue-in-cheek second paragraph was meant to be a joke. I did not intend to offend anyone.

Vinod,

I think I understand what you are talking about in your first paragraph. Truth is, I have a new editing assignment, and am awaiting the beginning of my shift, so I may not understand you fully. Nerves and all that, you know....

As for your parody, I realize it was a mere parody with no offensive intent, so no apology is necessary.

What is not a parody is that many of the Pashtun, who presently imbibe the wine of Taliban madness, wear the same ringlets, as you call them, as the super-observant Jews do. I try to keep the commandments, the Sabbath and kashrut, and believe it or not, I seek peace with our Arab neighbors instead of war.

I had always thought the ringlets the super-observant Jews wear were some invention of these folk needing to dress up like their Polish overlords or something. But then I saw photos from the beginning of the last (Christian) century from Yemen with Jewish kids wearing these ringlets - and then recently, photos of Pashtun in the mountains with these same ringlets!!

I can't stand those ringlets, and what are they? The sign of the universal Hebrew!! G-d indeed has a sense of humor.

Even the EU member countries if not all most of them diagree with the US about their policy with respect to Israel. What keeps the US so much out of mainstreat thinking? Is it their wisdom? What is their logic? Can you explain that Joseph? It is simple, the lobby my friend the lobby. As far as war with Iraq is concerned, it was stupidity of the present administration. But the foreign policy with respect to Israel has been consistent over the years. They are seeing some wisdom there that most of us fail to see unless you believe like some of us here who think that God gave jews the land that they are illegally grabbing from the palestenians. We cannot prove that the lobby is the reason. But then what else?

Trolle: "What is not a parody is that many of the Pashtun, who presently imbibe the wine of Taliban madness, wear the same ringlets, as you call them, as the super-observant Jews do...I had always thought the ringlets the super-observant Jews wear were some invention of these folk needing to dress up like their Polish overlords or something. But then I saw photos from the beginning of the last (Christian) century from Yemen with Jewish kids wearing these ringlets - and then recently, photos of Pashtun in the mountains with these same ringlets!!"

Ahem, read history perhaps? Its not god but a few millenia of travel, trade, marriage, conquests?

But then the same sort of mentality decided that despite the absence of all ethnographic and archeological evidence, a few bits of linguistic similarity were enough to come up with the "Aryan Invasion Theory" for India. Yep - faces change, even ethnic groups change, but the basic logic remains!


I can't stand those ringlets, and what are they? The sign of the universal Hebrew!! G-d indeed has a sense of humor.

currently me in lurkistan, reading and lurking, with interest

Troll:

""Someone else on this comment thread, wrote, "The American support initially, of the Taliban (believe it or not!) was precisely about building a pipeline from the Central Asian oil producing nations, thru Afghanistan. Their support of dicatators in Kazhakistan and others in the region is all about oil."

Ouch troll, don't twist surface similarities for your own twisted ends. I did say that the argument for the Israel lobby, by two distinguished scholarly analysts, not politicians, has to be taken seriously and not dismissed, predictably, as anti-Semitism. You are being patrolled, troll.

Vinod,

I have to apologize for the pathetic manners of two of the posters, posters who will not be named, as they have brought nothing but acrimony and contempt to this comment thread. I do this because they have not yet discovered the decency in their own souls to do it themselves. Suffice it to say that they whine a lot about "trolls" whilst behaving like trolls themselves.

As to your observations in comment #28, having been an American Zionist for a number of years myself (though never rich enough to hang with the money bags in AIPAC), I understand their dreams and desires from the gut. What I described to you in comment #22 was the American Zionist's wet dream, so to speak, the orgasmic fit of joy that would leave them limp and breathless on the ground, begging for more.

It is not my dream at all, but it most assuredly is theirs. One of the chief features of the American Jew, whether he/she admits it or not, is a deep rooted sense of insecurity. Some American Jews think that running away from the faith and their people will cure them of this; others join groups like AIPAC and heat up their keyboards demanding American aid in a big way, a big and public way. This is what you saw described in comment #22. If AIPAC was the tail wagging the American dog, there would be lots of GI's tramping around Israel so that everyone would know what a big and important ally Israel was to the United States.

Every GI hefting his M16 and Kevlar coated uniform with the Stars and Stripes on it would trumpet to the world "here lives a secure Jew!"

Then the presence of American convenience and stores. American Zionists would want their Postal Service, their department stores, even their electric grids duplicated in their zones of Israel. As it is, even without the fantasy I described, American immigrants here tend to settle together in little bubbles. There are places in Jerusalem that look and sound just like Kings Highway or Avenue J in Brooklyn on a busy May afternoon. I have to remind myself that I'm not living in Brooklyn anymore when passing through.

But that is the point of what I wrote in comment #22. It is all fantasy. The last time Olmert was in Washington for a conference with Arabs, he was treated like an Arab's dog, a second class servant told to come in the servants' entrance. The Arabs refused even to shake hands with him. All this with the approval of George Bush and his er "administration". Thus, does the American government treat the government of the Jews in fact, whether the sympathizers of the "poor Palestinians" who sport fancy apartment buildings with satellite dishes cheek and jowl with the water heaters, believe this or not.

Morris:

""What keeps the US so much out of mainstreat thinking? Is it their wisdom? What is their logic? Can you explain that Joseph? It is simple, the lobby my friend the lobby. As far as war with Iraq is concerned, it was stupidity of the present administration. But the foreign policy with respect to Israel has been consistent over the years.""

Good points. A veto in the UN by the US whenever Israel's policy is criticized by every other country, is almost a reflex action...a forgone conclusion. However, there is no guarantee that US will support Israel through thick and thin. All superpowers have permanent interests, not permanent allies. The US will not hesitate to change its policies if the geopolitics of the region changes suddenly, perhaps due to increasing turmoil in the region etc. The US has a fairly consistent record of abandoning allies, whenever it is expedient. The list of examples would fill up a fair amount of cyberspace. Yes, the Israel lobby is strong and yes it influences some decisions, but usually only when it coincides with the interests of the US government. But such influence is not permanent. No superpower has permanent friends or enemies. Only interests. I do not claim to be right, but just a viewpoint.

Troll:

""I have to apologize for the pathetic manners of two of the posters, posters who will not be named, as they have brought nothing but acrimony and contempt to this comment thread.""

Vinod Joseph, perhaps new to DC, is probably not entirely familiar with the modus operandi of the troll. Generous as it may sound to apologize on my behalf, but thanks, no thanks. I can still type.

Troll:

""I have to apologize for the pathetic manners of two of the posters, posters who will not be named, as they have brought nothing but acrimony and contempt to this comment thread.""

Vinod Joseph, perhaps new to DC, is probably not entirely familiar with the modus operandi of the troll. Generous as it may sound to apologize on my behalf, but thanks, no thanks. I can still type.

Troll:

"I have to apologize for the pathetic manners of two of the posters, posters who will not be named, as they have brought nothing but acrimony and contempt to this comment thread."

DON'T apologize for me. If you have half a conscience then apologize for the hate speech you consistently post on DC!

Anamika,

Commonsense has a thicker skin than you do. But, you do both come when called out! ;o))

I've sworn off the hateful acrimony that the two of you continue to spill forth like sour pancake batter. It was very unpleasant to participate in then, and I refuse to be drawn into it further. Life is too short to get angry at or be disturbed by desiring to sue people who are nothing more than anonymous noises on a web-site. I have better things to do with my life.

I speak my opinions and refuse to be drawn out to attack you or anyone else. Learn from Harold Bergsma, who speaks with grace and kindness. I certainly have.

Love and kisses from [EDITED],
Ruvy

P.S. If you honestly want to have a frank discussion, look up my e-mail address at my web-log above and talk with me there - away from the capricious and inconsistent editorial policies practiced here.

Ruvy: "If you honestly want to have a frank discussion, look up my e-mail address at my web-log above and talk with me there - away from the capricious and inconsistent editorial policies practiced here."

Would that be similar to a Polish Jew in 1941 engaging in correspondence with Goebbels?

Just as I assume the "love and kisses from liberated Samaria" are in the same league as Nazi soldiers posting "love and kisses from Bergen-Belsen"?

You stop your hate speech and I will engage with you with politeness. There is call for politeness or courtesy when dealing with genocidal fanatics!

Correction: "There is NO call for politeness or courtesy when dealing with genocidal fanatics!"

Vinod,

The following is a link to an opinion by Sheikh Abdulhadi Palazzi, of the Italian Muslim Assembly. Based on the points in his speech, Aryeh Gallin, of the Root & Branch Association in Jerusalem, published the following (sorry, no URL is available; I tried). Before continuing with the text, I'd note that Ariel Sharon, who in reality died from a stroke in January 2006 but who has been artificially kept alive to serve the ambitions of Ehud Olmert, lies rotting like a tomato - fitting punishment for a man who ruined the lives of thousands of tomato growers in Israel, and who thereby, has artificially raised food prices here.

Note further that conditions for Arabs in Gaza have not improved. Money goes primarily to arm terrorists, propagandize the public, plan murder and rebellion, and fight the half-hearted efforts of the IDF to stop this murder and rebellion - but yet the Arabs in Gaza remain better off than the their Egyptian brothers who suffer in el-Arish.

Finally, the opinions expressed below in English are frequently heard expressed in Hebrew. As I said, no URL was available to me: I apologize for the long post.

From the text:

"Severe Sin" -- Bush/Sharon Gush Katif Pogrom and Juden Deportation "Serious Crimes" and "Severe Sins".

"Open Rebellion" -- Deportation Rubber Stamping U.S. Congress and Israeli Knesset in State of "Open Rebellion" against G-d of Israel.

"Never Again"? -- Legalized Asset Theft of billions of dollars of Currently-Being-Deported Gush Katif Jewish Pioneer homes, farms and businesses, compensation (if at all) of owners forced to sell assets at fraction of real value and transfer of those assets to World Bank for sale to prospective buyers (such as Wye Plantation owning Aspen Institute) replay of early 1930's Nazi German Legalized Asset Theft (Arianisierung Gesetze/Arianization "Laws") forcing To-Be-Deported German Jews to "sell" assets at fraction of real value.

"$.$. $piritual Heirs" -- World Bank (founded 1944; headquarters, Washington, D.C.) $.$. $piritual Heirs of Bank for International Settlements (B.I.S.) (founded 1930; headquarters, Basel, Switzerland), which operated during World War Two with a U.S. President (Thomas McKittrick) and Nazi German General Director (Paul Hechler) "legally" transferring stolen Jewish assets out of Nazi Germany to Argentina and other countries (including gold from teeth of Jews, mass murdered in Nazi Death Camps, melted down to ingots by Nazi German Reichsbank).

"Nazi German/Saudi Wahhabi Collaborators" -- Nazi German Collaborating Union Banking Corporation Director Grandpa Prescott Bush betrayed the Jews of Germany and Europe (and all Americans fighting Hitler) for profits during World War Two. Grandpa Prescott's son, Saudi Wahhabi Collaborating U.S. Shadow President George H.W. Bush and Grandson, U.S. President George W. Bush, betray the Jews of Israel (and all Americans fighting Saudi sponsored Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood) today for almost 100% U.S. tax free Saudi oil profits.

"Fallen Vichy Israel?" -- Israeli "leader"ship today starting to smell like French "leader"ship of late 1930s. Will Prime Minister Ariel Sharon soon star as Modern Marshal Henri Philippe Petain (with Shimon Peres playing Pierre Laval) in "Fallen Vichy Israel"?

"Divinely Decreed Devastation" -- Divinely Decreed Devastation "rapidly accelerating descent" on nations -- and their "leaders" -- supporting current Gush Katif Juden Deportation and Legalized Asset Theft as punishment for these sins.

"Thus says the Lord" -- "Thus says the Lord G-d: It shall come to pass in that day, that things shall come into your (Gog's) mind, and you shall device an evil device [Quartet/Sextet Roadmap]; and you shall say: 'I will go up against the Land (of Israel) of unwalled villages; I will come upon them who are at quiet, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates; to take the spoil and to take the prey'; to turn your hand against the waste places (Gush Katif currently, Judea and Samaria soon) which are now inhabited, and against the People (of Israel) who are gathered out of the nations, who have gotten cattle and goods, who dwell in the middle of the earth. Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the magnates thereof, shall say to you (Gog): 'Do you come to take the spoil? Have you assembled your company to take the prey? To carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take great spoil?'" [Yehezkel/Ezekiel 38:10-13]

The majority of Jews in this country are not fully religious, Vinod, but hold "traditional" views, following the commandments to some degree or another. What is defined here as "traditional" would be defined in the UK or the States as very religious. The majority of Jews in Israel now agree with the assessment of affairs expressed above, and what is written above resonates deeply with them - even though the minority of "power-holders" (the crime minister, his cabinet, the "high court" of Injustice, and much of the Hebrew "media") do not. They are the rich, bought out secular minority who oppose a Jewish entity here, but are happy to live well speaking Hebrew - so long as they think they have a way out if war goes the wrong way for them.

The vast majority of my fellow country-men (73%) oppose the evacuation of Judea and Samaria, and the Heights to Golan to the Arabs, and that 63% want Olmert to be kicked out.

AIPAC, as I told you above, is just a pack of blowhards in America with big checkbooks and brains smaller then their wallets. Blaming them for American foreign policy - particularly in light of all the evidence to the contrary - is the equivalent of blaming rickshaw pullers for the poverty in India.

And now I leave you for the Sabbath. Other work awaits which must be completed in less than four hours.

Shabbat Shalom,
Ruvy

Ending underlined test here (hopefully). Oh well, - I see I meesed up yet another HTML link. Let's try this again. Link to Arutz Sheva, about three years ago..

Here we go again...this calls for some (bad) Urdu poetry, from the Qalam-e-Notting Hill, Janab Buddha Banker:

"Is butparast pe firauniyat ka ilzaam lagaa chuke the,
murtad ka taaj pehnaa kar humein thukra diye the,

(cue wah-wahs)

to ab kiske tasawwur mein rehna ka yeh nateeja hai
ki is nacheez ko murshid banaaya jaa raha hai?"

(fill in suitable applause here)

Getting to the point - could someone explain to me how the "oil and banking establishment in America" backs the Arabs? I'm intrigued, especially since Syria, Palestine and Iran all are on high alert compliance lists within most international banks (in fact, very few banks will do business with Iran, and that includes leading GCC Islamic banks, since they don't want to incur international sanctions)

Also, Ruvy, is it a biblically-inspired Freudian slip that you refer in #5 to American Jews wishing to escape the "stigmata" of being Jewish? The last time I went to catechism (yes, I studied in a Roman Catholic establishment run by Dog's own Rottweilers) stigmata refer to wounds corresponding to those inflicted during the Passion of the Christ. By definition, these can only appear on the bodies of incredibly devout Catholics, so I suspect that the Jewish people would probably be ruled out of that collective...

Nitpicking in the greatest Indian tradition - now, i need to get back to earning an imaandar tuncaw, but will follow the almost certain to ensue tumasher that will emerge on this thread...

yep, here we go again. but i will try to hold back, because, it will predictably be the same old, same old.

and while commending Harold on the other thread ("break the bread together"), and daring to apologize after using the language that he does, the troll does predictably forget his "Gaza (no loss)" spiel. Cute but not.

I cannot answer... I am too busy hiding from myself and running from my faith.

thanks!

(giggles and dashes away)

Troll:

""I have to apologize for the pathetic manners of two of the posters, posters who will not be named"

Troll, your fellow co-religionist, Smallsquirrel is mortified that you have not included her in your gallery of rogues. After all, she did have this to say to you, just yesterday:

""I find those words about gaza troubling and abhorrent. as a human and as a jew.

a life is worth the same world over. the sooner ruvy realizes that, the better. I do not suppose it's going to happen, though.

ruvy, why oh why must you continue on with the hate speech. what makes you and different than our zulfikar here? you're both full of hate!""

Or does the wound cut too deep when it comes from a fellow Jew?

Troll:

""Commonsense has a thicker skin than you do. But, you do both come when called out! ;o))""

Huh? Methinks Troll claimed he was failed law school student, then a failed Burger-Kinger? Had no idea he failed his dermatology lessons too.

As for us coming when we are called, did the Troll not many times swear that he would never re-appear again? Hmm...trolls are, but trolls.

I have a few minutes before the Sabbath, and the work I had to get done is done - so we'll answer the Smiling Buddha.

We'll deal with "stigmata" first. Words have a habit of changing meanings over the centuries, and while I'm sure you are right in the original meaning of the word "stigmata", its meaning and usage has changed over the many centuries since the Christian "god" got nailed. Maybe Catholics still tend to use the word to connote its original meaning, and given your explanation, I can see why. But explain to a American black that he is supposed to pay for the privilege of living in a ghetto, that his own laws, and not those of "the man" apply there, and that after a certain hour, if he leaves its confines, he is subject to imprisonment and fines. He's liable to look at you as if you had taken leave of your senses.

But that is the original meaning of "ghetto".

You mean I really need to explain how it is that the oil and banking establishment backs the Arabs? The Arabs have the oil that the oil profiteers make an obscene fortune off of, and the oil profiteers deposit that money in banks. The Arabs are business partners to the oil men and bankers. And lately, they appear on the way to becoming more than mere partners.

Would you go to war with your business partner? Or with your boss?

Oh, by the way, if you value your teeth, don't ever mistake a Persian for an Arab....

Have a good Sabbath,
Ruvy

As I usual I take the issue with `Indo-centric' point of view. American invasion to Iraq has proved to be very harmful to India's interests in middle east and Saddam was a very good freind of India and least fanatic ruler in whole middle east.

Iraq under Saddam was always constructive on Kashmir in OIC meetings and downplayed Babari event. As such India lost a valuable freind and ally in the middle east with demise of Saddam.

It was big loss for us.

the only gain is focus of Jehadis on Iraq and Afganistan and Kashmir and Chechenya has become low priority areas.

India could have taken benefit of this situation and solved kashmir issue by eliminating article 370 and annexing Kashmir fully with India but our spineless leadership could not gather courage to do so even under such highly favourable circumestances.

India could have said that in our national interest we have taken the decison.

Bhai CS this is the second time I am agreeing with you. I forgot when we agreed first time though but I I remember we did it.

Yes Saudi and Pakistan were tow dictatorships most dangerous to democratic movement on the earth. Majority of Jehadis come from these countries and so deos the funds.

India and bangla desh also have joined the train now with Saudi and Pakistan and contributing significantly in producing jehadis.

32 Indian doctors networking in Glasgo Blast case is merely tip of the iceberg.

Troll-Ruvy:

""Commonsense has a thicker skin than you do."

Pachiderm: = exposed a few times, caught with his pants down a few times, swore he'd never re-appear but as predicted, "he's back"! aka chuptzah

Troll Ruvy:

""Life is too short to get angry at or be disturbed by desiring to sue people""

Right! And when you do decide to become a suer (no I don't mean what this word means in Hindi, but just someone who likes to sue), please do get lawyers versed in secular not divine law, even though you hate anything and anyone to do with secularism. Just a tip.

Israel is the only secular democracy in whole middle east though. It is surrounded by fanatically thoecratic states from all sides.

Propagnda is such a powerful tool though and capable of demonising the victims of terror and glorifying the terrorists.

It happens in India also. Rest of India spends around 12000 cr a year on Muslim pilgrimage and Kashmir does not allow Hindu Pilgrims a place for temporary stay only because it being muslim majority state scared of loosing its `Kashmiriat'?

Funniest thing is that all so calles seculars who openly associate and enjoy power with most communal and fanatic muslim parties have shut their mouth and tails.

seculars humanists are hiding somewhere after seeing the real character of Jehadi Muslim minds when they are in Majority (in Kashmir) and when they are in minority in rest of India where they demand and enjoy more then equal rights and still keep on shouting `discrimination by infidels'.

I am talking about Jehadi Muslims and should not be mistook by whole muslim community in spite of the fact that these jehadis are ruling the muslim communities in most of the cases.

It's Vinod Joseph's writings which to me seem to be suspect. Why doesn't he talk of good old Woodrow Wilson, who was a stooge of the Europeans, and who was responsible for starting World Wars 1 and 2? That to me is an example of extraterritorialist lobbying run amok.

Notice how 'Wilsonianism' is gushingly equated with 'enlightened' foreign policy by its supporters -- their sly way of promoting Euro-centrism under a liberal sheepskin.

Look at how Wilson initiated the Federal Reserve and with it the practice of fiscal profligacy and irresponsibility. This is a policy that Americans are now heavily paying for today. But you don't see anybody writing any papers to challenge Wilsonianism.

These things were all done by pro-European extra-territorialist lobbies in the US, at the expense of US interests. I don't see Vinod Joseph giving even the slightest notice to these machiavellian games. One has to wonder where his own scruples and interests lie. Selective morality isn't morality at all. Selective liberalism isn't liberalism at all.

So stigmata is not stigmata now? From a completely socio-linguist perspective, words DO grow over time. However these are generally words that are rooted in sociological phenomenon - ghetto and diaspora being two good examples. Stigmata however is a specific religious and theological term - its a bit like saying that "sabbath" has evolved over the centuries to mean the same as "weekend."

Good try, but no cigar!

Man Singh: Israel the the "only" democracy? When its own citizens are denied the fundamental human rights based on their ethnicity and religion?
Remember the huge amount of voting that happened in the Palestinian territories? They made the "mistake" of electing a party that Israel, US and EU didn't like. It was definitely democracy in action but because the results didn't suit Israel and western powers, sanctions were imposed. Remember Algeria? Again people elected the party they wanted but it didn't suit the west. The same story has been played out all through ME - if there isn't democracy in that region, its because it doesn't suit western interests.

I am all for an Indo-centric view of the world, but that does not mean that view should be based on propaganda or factually incorrect information. Also "democracy" is too often a catch-word for western intervention - so hardly very convincing.

Sanjay: Vinod's piece was a review of ONE particular book. Why would it talk of Wilsonian politics?

Man Singh:

""Israel is the only secular democracy in whole middle east""

AND:

Man Singh:
""Propagnda is such a powerful tool though and capable of demonising the victims""

Thus unknowingly, unintentionally but brilliantly demonstrating, thru his own words, how powerful a tool propaganda indeed is.

Shavua Tov (have a good week),

In my initial comment on this fine article, I stated the following:

Mearsheimer and Walt would have Americans and others forget basic facts of history so that they might blame Jews in America (and in Israel) for the deaths of American soldiers in Iraq and for the economic problems consequent to the tremendous amount of money wasted in the swamps of the Tigris and Euphrates.

I return to this now, as this is the bottom line.

The only people threatened by the "theories" (really re-hashed Arab agit-prop) of Mearsheimer and Walt are Jews.

On this list, that means only two people, to my knowledge. Me, and one other, who now lives in the States, and says (sarcastically), "I am too busy hiding from myself and running from my faith."

Then, like so many Jews do when faced with real threats to their lives, she "giggles and dashes away".

ein milím - there are no words to answer this.

May she live long and prosper, may her family grow and may she see grandchildren around her like a crown of honor. And may she not share the fate of her European co-religionists who died between 1914 and 1945.

May she enjoy the blessing Moses gave to Israel's eldest son in the Torah.

"May Reuven live and not die...." [D'varím/Deuteronomy 33:6 in part]

Blessings from the mountains of Samaria,
Ruvy

ruvy, really... I mean, how can I not be angry by the implication you made that all Jews that do not live in Israel are running away from their faith?

I don't want to live there. I see no reason for me to live there. I do not agree with the politics, I do not agree with the actions of the government, and I really really do not agree with settlement. You and I have talked about this before.

I respect that you want to live your faith. But we are far far far from seeing eye to eye on most things. and really, you make comments that make my heart hurt. if I have to despise arabs to be a jew, I no longer wish to be a jew. if I have to think about taking up arms to be a jew, I no longer wish to be a jew. if I have to be filled with hate to be a jew, I no longer wish to be a jew.

thankfully I know these are not truths, but I hope you know I did not write the above lightly.

I wish you the best ruven, but I am not like you.

peace.

smallsquirrel,

I mean, how can I not be angry by the implication you made that all Jews that do not live in Israel are running away from their faith?

....................................

If I have to despise Arabs to be a Jew, I no longer wish to be a Jew; if I have to think about taking up arms to be a Jew, I no longer wish to be a Jew. If I have to be filled with hate to be a Jew, I no longer wish to be a Jew.

I've stated facts, not implications, and these facts apply not merely to you, who are a stranger to me, they apply to my sister, my nephews, my grand-nephews and nieces, and the majority of my cousins. That really hurts to say. But these are facts nevertheless.

You have spoken according to that which you feel. You have made your choices, and it is not my place to argue with you here.

bim'kóm Hillulím, brakhót - In place of curses, let there be blessings. That is what you see in my comment #57, and that is what you see below.

May you learn to cry for Jerusalem with tears from within your heart and teach your children to do likewise. May you learn to hunger for the Land in your soul. And then, may the remainder of the blessing for the tribe of Reuven also apply to you - ...."and may his population be included in the count". [D'varím/Deuteronomy 33:6 in part]

shalóm u'vrakhá
Peace and blessings from Ma'ale Levoná, the mountain of frankincense.

Someone said, there are no permanent allies or enemies, only permanent interests (perhaps it was the usual suspect, the one with verbal diarrhea ;)). In America's case this interest is primarily economic. The runaway capitalism has reached such a stage that American leaders are unable to think beyond the pockets of their friends, namely the oil-arms-drugs-bankers-insurers-doctors-lawyers lobby. Guess who controls most of these lobbies. I have not done any research on this, but I suspect a vast majority are Jews. That definitely explains the Israeli tint in the US foreign policy.

The motivation behind US invasion of Iraq was not only oil, it was a combination of factors. The oil lobby definitely rejoiced at the prospect, but I am sure even arms industry was involved somewhere. Given the total control of Washington (and New York) by vested interests, the national interests, the global interests, the human interests are only words; to be used for hoodwinking the public. We are truly in a matrix like nightmare, don't know if we will ever wake up.

Regards,

Ravi

CS
"Yes, the Israel lobby is strong and yes it influences some decisions, but usually only when it coincides with the interests of the US government."

You imply that the US policy in the mid-east is also in their interest. That is debatable. What interest it is serving? All the outcome appear to be negative and according to you the US should drop the support of Israel. But that is very unlikely in forseeable future. It is the lobby. The only other factor may be the media.

Anamika, the whole interest in this "book" to begin with, is due to ethnic selectivity and prejudice. Like I said, scrutiny is being selectively given to certain ethnic groups, while others are getting off scot-free. If the Jews are up for discussion, then so should the Europeans be. After all, this whole problem was created by the Europeans in the first place, and as Indians we shouldn't be giving a free pass to the colonials. Israel was after all the first non-European country to suffer European conquest and colonial subjugation. They created the name Palestine just as surely as they created the name Pakistan. They re-drew the maps for their convenience.

Dear Ruvy,

I love conspiracies, as you can see from my previous post. I loved your intricately woven theory of conspiracy behind world wars, US hegemony and USSR. Did you ever write subsequent chapters? If so please provide the links.

Regards,

Ravi

Ravi,

Thank you for your kind words (haven't been able to write that in a long time here). I'm guessing you went to my blogsite and read something there. Since many of my postings allude to the control of this country by foreigners in one way or another, perhaps you could leave a comment at the specific article that you read that impressed you so.

There is one article on my site that I'd like to publish either here or at Blogcritics Magazine, but it is an awful long read, (making it problematic at BC) and it has very little that a Desi might relate to, which would lead to all sorts of complaints from some commenters lamenting why Desis have to endure here the viewpoint of someone so alien.

Anyway, I await your comments.

brakhót m'ma'álé levoná b'haré shomrón
Blessings from Ma'ale Levona in the mountains of Samaria,
Ruvi

Morris:

""You imply that the US policy in the mid-east is also in their interest. That is debatable. What interest it is serving? All the outcome appear to be negative""

Morris, I don't think only I imply it. Almost any official document from the US administration, as well as almost all the speeches by the presidential contenders, refer to "our vital interests". This is not an issue that requires much interpretation or the use of too much brains since it is all over the map, loudly and proudly announced!! The ritualized invocation of "our interests" is so routinized that I am surprised that you think that I am stretching reality by "implying" such interests.

However, you raise a good issue when you talk about the nightmaris scenarios, where almost "all outcomes are negative". This is not surprising either: it is usually known as "unintended consquences". One can figure out one's interests, and act upon it with the full force of one's military and so-called allies, but the outcome is never ever determined by the plans that are initially laid out. Think Vietnam, the Algerian war etc. etc. In the same vein, there is nothing wrong as such with ""conspiracy theories"" as long as the term is understood properly. If everything that happens is interepreted by referrring to conspiracies, then of course it is plain silly. But conspiracies, in terms of deliberate action to achieve some ends are not uncommon. The problem of course is that such planning does not and cannot take into account a number of factors that get in the way and create unintended consequences. Think of Mrs. Gandhi and the whole Punjab issue in the 1980's. Does somebody seriously believe that everything happens in this world just by chance and accident, and there is no planning and implementation based on perceived "interests"?? Some might call them conspiracies, others might have other terms for them.

Ravi Kulkarni is on the spot about runaway global capitalism powerfully shaping all these actions and events. So, contrary to impression, this is NOT A QUESTION of knee-jerk, "anti-Americanism" but a combination of a number of factors that go back to the imperatives of capitalism. If France were the superpower now, it would be roughly a similar story and the French would react to what they would perceive "anti-Frenchism".

So other factors such as geopolitics, pure power, misanthropy, ideology etc. play a role? Of course they do, but the name of the game is, as Ravi Kulkarni has pointed out, runaway capitalism and what is now called "disaster capitalism" where even catastrophies and nightmares are occasions for accumulating more billions: think Katrina, think Iraq (think not just Haliburton) etc. etc. Is the story more complex than this? You bet my sweet ass it is, but if this key point is forgotten, we are simply fighting shadows.

Yes, my terminal verbal diarrohea is pretty much incurable. Oh well!

Ravi Kulkarni:

""The oil lobby definitely rejoiced at the prospect, but I am sure even arms industry was involved somewhere. Given the total control of Washington""

The late American president (not some loony leftist, so to speak!) coined the term "the military-industrial complex" a few decades ago, just after the war, to warn Americans of its developing power and its implications for Americans and the rest of the world. There are many studies done on this issue, including by American sociologists such as C. Wright Mills etc. who analyze the close connections between industry, the military and the government, and how the key figures here actually so easily move from one institution to the other, influencing policies dramatically. No conspiracy theory this, since none of this is hidden or under wraps. Think of ANY key secretary or high government officials and the links are all very visible, with no effort at all to hide them.

Ruvy,

what say you of this article? curious to know what you think...

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2008/758/39158

Bob,

Haaretz journalist, Amos Schocken, argued in the June 29 report, entitled "Citizenship law makes Israel an apartheid state", that, with the laws extension, the apartheid nature of the Israeli state needed to be acknowledged.

This is just standard trash from Haaretz, which is the propaganda vehicle of the Schocken family, a bunch of secular religion-hating Jews who never almost never miss an opportunity to put down the country of their birth and the faith of their forefathers. In essence, Haaretz represents the ruling elite of the "People's Republic of Tel Aviv" that has nothing but contempt for the majority of us here in Israel, and would sell their souls for acceptance by the Brits - the ones who call this a "shitty little country".

The real issues of the law are a different kettle of fish altogether, and have nothing to do with the stupid labeling by the Schocken kid writing for the family rag.

Comment #68

In other words, please don't bother me with facts; I'd rather be baba-bliss in my own divine make-believe world...

comment 69

I agree.

comment 68

So Ruvy, your saying that Israel does not have laws that discriminate against non-Jews?
Someone with a zionist/racist mindset like yourself would nor could acknowledge that Israel is an apartheid state.

CS
My question was: What vital interests the US policy serves? I was not discussing what the US officials were saying. When they go along with the lobby, they have no choice but to say that it is in the US interest. You missed my point.

Bob,

I said nothing of the sort. You asked me my opinion of an article found at an anti-Israel site that picked up the trash that the Schocken "kid" wrote for the family rag.

What I said specifically was that the legal issues are a whole different kettle of fish. There are several angles that need to be examined in detail, including jurisdiction, security, and national status.

If Judea and Samaria were annexed to the State, and laws like this were on the books then you could claim blatant discrimination - it would be. But Judea and Samaria officially holds the status of "disputed territory", it is not annexed to the State, it is under military jurisdiction and a "Civil Administration" where Jews control it, its Arab residents are not citizens of the State of Israel, and are not even citizens of the Kingdom of Jordan, they are the citizens of a nigh fictional thugocracy called the "Palestinian Authority".

Since the security of the State is at issue, and Arab terrorists will use any means to transport themselves into the country (including carrying arms and explosives in ambulances) for the purpose of killing Jews, and celebrate the death of Jews dancing in the street like savages craving murder (note the celebration in Lebanon over the murderer freed and handed over in return for dead bodies), the State of Israel has a minimal duty to its own citizens to keep unauthorized individuals out.

I don't care what you call it; I certainly don't care what some western ass-kissing rag like Ha'aretz calls it. I call it maintaining minimal peace order. Note the key word here is minimal.

Frankly, if the Arabs ceased terror against us, they would not be subject to military interference with their lives or incursions on what is allegedly their territory. But since they are in effect waging war, what I view as rebellion, the minimal security any citizen can expect in Israel is that those who would wage war upon us and murder us would be kept out.

The troll is predictable. I suggest not feeding it further...

Morris,

Yes, i did misunderstand your point. The lobby is indeed a very strong factor and should not be dismissed. there are other interests too. Wish i knew the exact answer, but i don't.

Comment on Comment #72 by TrollR:

What does "boilerplate" mean?

boilerplate: In information technology, a boilerplate is a unit of writing that can be reused over and over without change

Comment on Comment #72 by TrollR:

What does "boilerplate" mean?

boilerplate: In information technology, a boilerplate is a unit of writing that can be reused over and over without change

Hence it is that one becomes a "writer" without really writing or thinking.

Some back-up for my observations at comment #72.

The painful realities of life and death and attempting to provide minimal security for a citizenry at war. On 6 March, an Arab van driver murdered in cold blood a number of yeshiva students enjoying a meal that celebrated the new month. Because he was known, he was invited in. In early, July, an Arab municipal worker, who knew the killer of the yeshiva kids, killed three people in a vehicular attack aimed at Jews done purposely in front of the Capital Studios on the Jaffa Road in Jerusalem, where international media could cover it - and subsequently distort the coverage.

Arab terrorists have become so practiced at their determination to kill us, that it has become boilerplate - and it is only prudence and due diligence not to hire them where they can do so.

cs:

1: why kahane and kahanites are outlawed and treated as pariahs?

2: what do you find common with kahane and hitler

3: What do you find common with kahane and osama

i know this will make demand on your valuable time...so no rush...

note: this is addressed to cs

Temporal,

Fighting hard to stem my verba diarrohea, but no doubt I will not succeed. Thank you so much for handing me the soap-box to spill some basic commonsense that only the racists, the deluded and the self-appointed thekedaar will object to. So here goes:

""1: why kahane and kahanites are outlawed and treated as pariahs?""

Everyone, except a determined group of illegal settlers living, obviously on stolen lands, sees Kahane for what he was. A racist bigot who backed his views with violent action. In the Israeli parliament, since he was elected, he would give five hour long speeches to an empty house, save the official transcriber, since nobody, not even the fringe element of the Likud could stomach his views. His Kach party, banned everywhere as a "terrorist organization". Even if we understand the politics behind selectively banning a group a terrorist while condoning others who are worse, this is a label that nobody disagrees with, save a few deluded settlers soaked in divine prophesies, deluded futher by their well-oiled M16's and drowining in racist, genocidal fantasies that they unfortunately sometimes act on (Baruch Goldstein).

""2: what do you find common with kahane and hitler""

Racists are racists, period. All racists of course believe that they are on a righteous, thekedaari mission to allegedly "purify" their racial flock. Hitler never believed he was evil, neither did his followers. Same for Kahane. Kahane, as our friend the Troll reminds us, actually claimed that the Holocaust was divine punishment for the "fact" that the Jews had strayed from an allegedly divinely ordained path ie. they were becoming secular, not following Judaism as understood by Kahane etc. Same old, same old, "deep structure" of all racist ideologies, regardless of context - whether racist casteism in India, religious fundamentalism in Saudi Arabia, wherever. "Racism without race" so to speak, since biologically speaking, the idea of pure races is a crock. Much more so when one thinks of the so-called chosen people, chosen apparently by God himself! Racism is an impulse found in all groups, albeit acted upon with a particular vigour in some contexts as oppposed to others. It is not the provenance of so-called Whites alone.

""3: What do you find common with kahane and osama""

Both are/were deluded self-appointed thekedaars of so-called pure communities. They may be deluded, but yet, have enough followers and resources to inflict real damage on people who just want to get on with their lives. But Osama and Kahane are not the only ones. Hence my allergy to any sectarian, communal, racist impulse. All these divisive strategies are an insult to my understanding of what it is to be human.


""I know this will make demand on your valuable time...so no rush...""

Not at all, even though I am modest enough to realize that for determined racists, bigots and promoters of genocide under the guise of virtue, what I write is probably not worth the non-paper it is written on!

Finally, I think the key point, as I see it is this: we may be appalled at the views of Hitler, Kahane etc. But the fact is that these characters and their followers actually think they are extremely virtuous and trying their best to "improve" the world! And yes indeed, they are appalled when others don't agree with them. Hence the violence of their reaction. This is why even regular folks, once caught up in this crap, and stoked by particular political conditions, will engage in the most unimanigabe of henious acts while justifying it in the name of a "race", religion, nation, community, linguistic groups etc. Hence it is that we read of gruesome atrocities committed. Commonsense it is, that NO so-called COMMUNITY is exempt from this crap, even though of course, depending on which group we belong, we always come up with a list of "enemies".

I trust my hysterical response to anyone who supports Kahane, Hitler, Osama, the Jamaat Islami types, David Duke, Ian Paisley, Bajrang Dal types, the extreme Hindutva types....ad infinitum, since I don't intend to condone anyone at all...drive me nuts, all the time.

Amen

[Delusional rant edited]

But given the capricious editing found on this site, and given that I've sworn off the unpleasantness of shouting in the ears of the deaf, I'll abstain from hauling out that soapbox.

[Deleted]

And Kahane was right!! And all those who have condemned him are wrong and have the blood of over 1,500 Israelis on their hands - including those who raise their voices in condemnation on this list.

Sigh...there we go again:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article4370366.ece

this is not true

the video is doctored

the "chosen" cannot resort to such demeaning violence...not even a die hard, delusional, blind, hateful kahanite will do such a thing to a poor occupied palestinian

you got it all wrong ana

The link from the Times-Online was especially interesting - not for the standard boilerplate anti-Israel coverage the article presents - but for the fact that at the "Have Your Say" section of talkbacks from readers, they just weren't buying the baloney.

A few samples:

1..
A few points:
1) The gun is not actually pointing at the 'victim', rather it is slightly off.
2) The 'gunshot' one hears takes place some time after the 'shot' was fired.
3) As many people have pointed out, what exactly happens to the camera?
4) If he really was shot, where is the blood and pain?

3..
Has anyone stopped the video at the point of the shot and checked the position of the gun barrel with a straight-edge?

I did this, and found that (unless I am mistaken) the bullet either had to hit the ground or veer almost half a meter over a distance of less than 2 meters.
Try it and see.

6..
The video does NOT show an Israeli soldier caught on film shooting bound Palestinian; quite bizarre how the exact moment of the firing is missing.

8..
if this video reminds you of the nazis, you probably should look for a history book and give it a read. Shooting someone with a rubber bullet in the toe is just not the same as shooting someone with a real bullet in the head. Can you spot the difference?

13...
The soldier is a moron but the palestinian wasn't injured, not even in the toe (there are still photos of his leg. his toe is slightly red). The soldier should go to prison for a long time, but I would like see the full version of the clip (I wonder why the important part was cut out).

And the bottom line:
An IDF soldier fires a rubber bullet at a man's toe, (a reprehensible act, which should be punished) and is called a Nazi......

A Hizbollah terrorists murders a family, including stoving in a 4 year old girl's skull with a rifle butt and returns to a hero's welcome.

Hypocrisy, perhaps?

It's fun impeaching alleged evidence. Maybe I shoulda tried harder in law school....

"As long as Israelis continue to age, decline in vigor and strength, and ultimately pass away, never will their nation know the meaning of peace," the statement read in part. "Either they stop dying at once, or prepare to suffer the consequences." Israel, Palestine Now Fighting Over Cemetery Space

TrollR's comment #82:

Reminds me of all the theories that the Americans never landed on the moon! The photos, as they claim, were doctored."Look at the American flag! It cannot flutter since there's no air/atmosphere on the moon..." etc. etc. etc.

TrollR:

""Maybe I shoulda tried harder in law school....""

Maybe! But a little bird tells me the Troll tried his best and the results are for all to see. Same goes for Kinging them Burgers in Minnesota...

TrollR:

""And Kahane was right!!""

Amen. Not even a hint of embarrassment at disguising embarrasment with a cloak of virtuosity. Boilerplate writer redux. When dealing with the TrollR, the details of his ramblings are unimportant when he tries to sound "rational" because I always remeber the bottomline:ie. his unfliching devotion to Kahane the racist, the bigot, the beyond contempt human being from Brooklyn.

Suggested Readings: (Not suggested for those who believe in God's Law)

The False Prophet: Rabbi Meir Kahane, from FBI Informant to Knesset Member by Robert I. Friedman. Brooklyn, NY: Lawrence Hill Books, 1990.

Heil Kahane by Yair Kotler. New York: Adama Books, 1986.

Israel's Ayatollahs: Meir Kahane and the Far Right in Israel by Raphael Mergui and Phillipe Simonnot.

The Roots of Kahanism: Consciousness and Political Reality by Aviezer Ravitzky.

Kach and Meir Kahane: The Emergence of Jewish Quasi-Fascism by Ehud Sprinzak

Déjà vu (pronounced /ˈdeɪʒɑː ˈvuː/ (help·info); French /deʒa vy/ (help·info) "already seen"; also called paramnesia, from Greek παρα para, "near" + μνήμη mnēmē, "memory") is the experience of feeling sure that one has witnessed or experienced a new situation previously (an individual feels as though an event has already happened or has happened in the near past). The term was coined by a French psychic researcher, Émile Boirac (1851-1917)

#82, #85: Oh I KNOW that the video is not true, in the EXACT same way certain people STILL say that the Holocaust is not the true. After all, all those chimneys were simply "industrial" and the trains took people away to "clean resorts that were much better than their ghettos," and OF COURSE, the guns were NEVER pointed at the 12 million who perished in the Nazi death camps.

Reality seems forever to trump the baloney of the apologists for the "poor Palestinians". The Arabs proved once again how bloodthirsty they are this afternoon in Jerusalem. Thank G-d nobody but the terrorist was killed.

The terror attack took place while "President" Peres was hosting "President" Abbas this afternoon in a joke of a ceremony that called for "peace".

I'll copy the UPDATE comment I posted at BC.

UPDATE...UPDATE...UPDATE

Debkafiles reports that 29 have been injured in the terror attack that took place six hours ago, two seriously.

From the article: "The terrorist was Ghassen Abu Tir, 22, from Umm Tuba, a Palestinian village in southeast Jerusalem, who was employed at the building site. He was a relative of Muhammed Abu Tir, a Hamas lawmaker held in an Israeli jail.

The Hizballah-sponsored Galilee Liberation Brigades claimed this attack like the first bulldozer rampage of July 2 when another Jerusalem Palestinian killed three people and caused heavy damage on Jerusalem's Jaffa Street."

These points are extremely important to note. Umm Tuba is a village not far from Jebel Mukabr and Tzur BaHr, Arab villages near Armon haNetziv (where I used to live). Evidently the Galilee Liberation Brigades have been active in the southeast Jerusalem area.

Note the name - Galilee Liberation Brigades. The Arabs do not care about "the West Bank" and "Gaza" - they want the whole country, as their propaganda constantly proclaims.

This is the stuff that the media ignore routinely, that needs to be noted carefully. These murderers are serious, just as Hitler was serious.

""phew":interj.
Used to express, fatigue, surprise, or disgust.

re #90

""Reality seems forever to trump the baloney""


Huh? Who are you going to believe? Me and my delusions or your own eyes?

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - U.S. Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama pledged staunch support for Israel on Wednesday in Jerusalem, describing the Jewish state as a miracle and holding only a low-profile meeting with Palestinian leaders.

Reuters: Obama

""I'm here on this trip to reaffirm the special relationship between Israel and the United States, my abiding commitment to its security, and my hope that I can serve as an effective partner, whether as a ... senator or as a president, in bringing about a more lasting peace in the region," he said.

The Illinois senator, meeting Israeli President Shimon Peres, described Israel as a "miracle that has blossomed" since its founding 60 years ago.""

Huh? Who are you going to believe? Me and my delusions or your own eyes?

Couldn't have said it better meself:

Arutz Sheva reports PA Paper: Israel Using Super-Rat

From the newsflash: PA-Fatah newspapers have reported that Israel has developed a rat with supernatural powers, and is setting it loose among the Arab population in eastern Jerusalem in order to drive the Arabs away. According to Palestinian Media Watch, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida and Al-Ayam informed their readers that the rats are let loose by "settlers" who bring them to the Old City in large cages and release them in order to "make the Arabs' life hell and make them leave."

The accounts credit a Dr. Hassan Hatter with discovering the supposed plot and describe the rats as highly aggressive, abnormally large and unafraid of cats. The female "gives birth to 140 rats a year - four times the average in nature."

Dr. Hatter's report "did not explain how Israel taught the rats to tell the difference between Old City Arabs and Jews, so that they only chase way Arabs."

must be kahanite rats;)

Yeah, AND the super-rat can even identify the Pathans as the "lost Jews" amongst the Talib - not sure what happens then of course, but hell, thats not a problem for Super-rat!

super-rats can smell them out! nothing too difficult for them super-rats.

[Blathering edited]

[don't push]

[Don't push]

waq't nay kiya kya haseen sitam
tum rahey na tum
hum rahey na ham
all due to super-Rat

Oh no - Dangermouse, how could you become a pawn of the Kahanites?!

Considerably chastened by the editorial nudging, I shall henceforth desist from pushing.

i can pull though right? (as in dwell in lurkistan?)

If Dangermouse desi-sts, can a desi mouse then endanger?

"desi-st""!!! good one anamika.

last night i kept dreaming about super-rat and danger-mouse. (in north america, Danger-Moose, quite close to "musa" for mouse in UP villages)

NYT

""JERUSALEM -- An Israeli defense committee has approved the construction of 22 homes in a barely populated West Bank settlement, Defense Ministry officials said Thursday. The move appeared to catch some Israeli officials off guard, angered Palestinians and was likely to prompt criticism from the international community as it tried to push forward a long-faltering peace process.""

You can always come to this article to discuss these issues, too. Just remember that at BC there won't be any Desi editors to let you bait me and then delete what I write as "blathering". ;o))

Shabbat Shalom,
Ruvy

[EDITED - PERSONAL]

Bob,

Under other circumstances I might be offended by your question - it does constitute a personal attack, not to mention an indirect threat. But, you've done an admirable job of proving a point that I've made elsewhere by illustrating the barbaric mentality coming from too many of the denizens and naives of the Indian sub-continent.

Good show, mate!! I'm almost thankful.... ;o))

Love and kisses from the mountains of Samaria,
Ruvy

Ruvy: "barbaric mentality coming from too many of the denizens and naives of the Indian sub-continent."

What was that about glass houses and throwing stones?

If there are "too many of us "natives" with barbaric mentality, DO please explain why such a civilized believer of the true faith as yourself insists on fraternizing with the aforesaid barbaric natives?

Bob's comment in #111 was in poor form, but then so was the bulldozer than ran over Rachel Corrie. Equally in bad form is the decision to build new settlements in the occupied territories, and so too is the propagation of extra-judicial executions by the Israeli Occupying Force. But then, we have never seen international law apply in Israel or the Middle East, so why start now?

And Ruvy - I would pick my words with care if I were you; just as using the word "kike" to describe you or your people is not quite the done thing in polite company, so too the use of the word "native" isn't really done in civilised coversation. Ta mère t'as rien appris?

If not, think of it as a free lesson in etiquette; and be glad I don't charge for those because frankly my dear you couldn't afford it. Must be my barbaric mentality as a denizen of the Indian subcontinent that prevents me from making a profit out of your intemperate tirades.

Anamika - is it just me or do you smell something? Oh yes - its the stench of incendiary self-righteousness emanating from the cursed lands south of the Bekaa Valley, which has, by the way, some fantastic reds; I had a 2006 vintage last week that had an amazingly fruity bouquet. Maybe the gunfire and Israeli gunpowder helped that year?

The Buddha Smiled:

""And Ruvy - I would pick my words with care if I were you; just as using the word "kike" to describe you or your people is not quite the done thing in polite company""

Surprised no doubt you'd be, but Ruvy has used the word "kike" scores of times to describe his enemy no. 2 ie. secular jews who take the Torah etc. and the prophesies texts as metaphors rather than literally. As for Ruvy's enemy no. 1, no prizes for guessing.

CS- just another barabaric native

Troll-R:

""it does constitute a personal attack, not to mention an indirect threat.""

he he, look who's complaining of personal attacks and threats!! Short memory that matches a shorter fuse? As in the jeopardy question: what does "chuptzah" mean?

Just read Deepti's article about bomb blasts in Bangalore. Just read Temporal calling for the perps to be caught and hanged. When the shoe is on the other foot, you don't mince words, do you, eh, "bhai"?

No talk about "liberation" or "occupation" or "ghettoization", "discrimination" or any of the other trash that flows so loosely when Jews are attacked by Arabs.

I'd pick my words carefully if I were you too, gents.

And just so you know, I second Temporal's sentiment - let the perpetrators be caught and hanged.

Shabbat Shalom from Samaria,
Ruvy

Ruvy: "No talk about "liberation" or "occupation" or "ghettoization", "discrimination" or any of the other trash that flows so loosely when Jews are attacked by Arabs."

Scraping the bottom of the barrel with that apples vs oranges comparison, aren't you?

Bangalore isn't OCCUPIED territories! Or indeed a settler colony for a bunch of Jewish version of the Taliban. There are no separate roads, and special status for the god's "chosen" in India either.

Besides, you missed a key point in temp bhai's post: perpetrators ought to TRIED! Yes, that little minor detail that the IOF forgets when it shoots six year olds in the territories.

I would suggest you get a reality check but I guess that would be impossible given your hotline to god!

Bachpan mein meri maa kehti thi ki jab haathi chalta hai to kutte bhaunkte hain lekin haathi mud ke nahin dekhta; isliye beta, nasamajh logon ke moonh mat lagna. But then when have i listened to everything my parents said?

So in that spirit of filial rebellion, here goes: Ruvy, please note that we don't talk about "liberation" or "occupation" in this context because unlike some other countries in the world, the political entity that is India today isn't ruled by a bunch of people who came across on boats at the start of the 20th century. The "indigenous" population in India isn't living in a fraction of their historic land, isn't dealing with roadblocks at places like Huwarra, isn't being set upon by settlers wielding clubs and rifles, isn't condemned to having their houses razed by bulldozers (some of which often run over international protesters trying to stop such illegal activity), aren't shot at with rubber bullets in the toe, aren't shot with live bullets while trapped at checkpoints, etc, etc etc.

So its not really pertinent political commentary to talk about issues that are a problem in your adopted land, as opposed to ground realities in India.

You're welcome, by the way, for the free political edification - though the way you're racking up lessons in social graces and geopolitics, I may eventually need to send you an invoice. FYI - I accept family silverware (suitably authenticated for quality), but not shekels gained from the selling of daughters into servitude as outlined in Exodus, Chapter 21.

Hope all folks and their loved ones in Bangalore are okay.

Buddha:

""issues that are a problem in your adopted land""

hear hear! he's been there but six years and still struggling to learn his so-called "mother tongue". the missionary zeal of the newly converted....

Sign in the CyberZoo:

"please don't feed the trolls. they thrive on a specially prepared diet of divine prophecies and hate. any other food ingested by them causes frothing and foaming. if you must enjoy their tantrums, please throw some snacks at them, but only after long intervals"

By Order of the Director, CyberZoo

Anamika:

""If there are "too many of us "natives" with barbaric mentality, DO please explain why such a civilized believer of the true faith as yourself insists on fraternizing with the aforesaid barbaric natives?""

Anamika,

I am truly appalled that you appear to be ungrateful to the well-established tradition whereby generations of non-natives have attempted to civilize them incorrigible, beastly natives. Please let us all collectively thank the Mr. Troll-R for his commitment to this truly thankless task that gurantees only churlish brickbats for him.

how is what I said any different from what that racist zionist says about we Indians and the Palestinians!?

CS: I am not ungrateful at all.

As TBS had mentioned earlier, the 2006 Bekaa valley vintage is indeed extraordinary - personally I cannot quite decide whether its the aroma of cluster bomb residue that gives it the extra kick or simply the lingering fragrance of indiscriminate killing. Any whiff of that particular vintage on DC is a welcome reminder of life's exigencies.

Thanks, TBS for that "lesson" in geopolitics and social graces, etc. When I can find my checkbook, I'll send you a check for 4 agorót - about a half rupee, by my estimation. That's overpaying you by about 100½ rupees, by the way....

Talking about social graces, you're that fine fellow who "did a little dance for joy" when he learned of the expulsion of the residents of Nevé Dekalím and all the other Jewish communities in Gush Qatif. Whatta guy! Maybe I should recommend your comments to the fine folks here who have finally had up to the eyeballs with the bullshit in the Israel Military Administration and how they refuse to protect Jews in Judea and Samaria.

Things are changing here in the mountains of Samaria, and while they may not make any Buddha smile, they are making this Jew hope for real freedom from our JEWISH oppressors, not to mention a chance to stick events here down your throat.

um, ruvy said NAIVES of the subcontinent, not "natives"

am surprised he did not correct you himself.

If there are "too many of us "natives" with barbaric mentality, DO please explain why such a civilized believer of the true faith as yourself insists on fraternizing with the aforesaid barbaric natives?

I don't fraternize with you, my dear lady. I have more class than that. I do not control who decides to post on this site or any other, except my own blogsite. But, I do speak my mind - and usually, when I do, you don't like it, so you, well let's be polite about it, speak yours.

Well, burger-flipping Taliban isn't precisely class in any sense of the word, so thats a relief.

But the troll does spend an inordinate amount of time and energy on DC with the very "natives" that he despises and is quite happy to insult.

I have also noticed a pattern - the troll also "fraternizes" with the newest posters/writers amongst the natives, trying to chat them up with Zionist propaganda, trying to convince them of the fanatic cause he espouses and propogates.

Unfortunately for the troll, far too many of us "natives" are around to ensure that Goebbelsian sweet talk is revealed as the poison it is.

the troll?

Anamika and CS have been acting like trolls wherever I have commented on this site, backed by Desi editors to keep their baiting on as comments, and deleting my responses.

I do not correspond with these trolls. I have too much class to do so. But they haven't the guts to come to a site where their remarks will be dealt with for what they are, without Desi editors to edit my voice out.

Troll-R:

""the troll?

Anamika and CS have been acting like trolls wherever I have commented on this site""

ulta chor kotwal ko daate
yeh dastur purana

Troll-R:

""I have too much class to do so.""

People who have class have no crass need to advertize it repeatedly.

anamika:

""I have also noticed a pattern - the troll also "fraternizes" with the newest posters/writers amongst the natives, trying to chat them up with Zionist propaganda""

yes, predictable boilerplate troll-R

Ruvy in #124:

Keep the chequebook tucked away until you get the invoice.

And yes, I was happy when they expelled the settlers in Gush Qatif, because like ALL the settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, they are ILLEGAL and contribute more towards the ongoing feud between Israelis and Palestinians than anything else. And why the Israeli establishment should protect illegal settlers in what is not Israeli territory is something I cannot quite comprehend. But then I'm not a Kahanite or a rabid settler fanatic, so I guess I never will.

#125: SS, he didn't need to correct himself. The meaning was apparent despite a spelling error, and reinforced by subsequent posts.

Moreover as he has taken upon himself to teach us poor "natives" proper English on various occasions, I am sure he realises that "naive" is an adjective and not a noun, and therefore would be incorrect in that sentence structure as a plural noun.

Sorry to disappoint you but despite the spelling error, the intended word was "natives" - complete with our "barbaric mentality." His racism is well and truly established on DC and all the prevarication in the world will [not]alter that.

anamika... wotay. it's not my argument, so I am staying out of it. :)

but yes, since he did not correct anyone it does seem that he did mean natives.

how is the view from your hut this morning? :) :) :)

My thoughts exactly, SS.

Well the hut has been freshly smeared with cow dung, the straw is clean and new, and if I could get the chulha to stop smoking, life would be wonderful. :-)

SS:

""how is the view from your hut this morning? :) :) :)""

SS, i live up on the trees, so Anamika is a step higher (physically lower) on the ladder of civilization. Ruvy is of course truly "settled", yet unsettled, so, quite civilized

I rode an elephant to work this morning. :)

ss:

them big things blind cannot decipher?

i walked to the bus stop on the outskirts....but the drivers were protesting fuel prices...so got on the skateboard and hitched on to a tonga

the tonga...or the horse thought he was a mule

to cut the story short...ah well...blame it all on ana...all her fault...

;)

Troll-R:'s boilerplate response to what Anamika posted some time back:

""The link from the Times-Online was especially interesting - not for the standard boilerplate anti-Israel coverage the article presents - but for the fact that at the "Have Your Say" section of talkbacks from readers, they just weren't buying the baloney.

A few samples:

1..
A few points:
1) The gun is not actually pointing at the 'victim', rather it is slightly off.
2) The 'gunshot' one hears takes place some time after the 'shot' was fired. etc. etc. etc""""

And now this on BBC today (admittedly Daily Divine News that Ruvy has access to, but we have to make do with regular news):

""An Israeli colonel has been sent home for 10 days amid allegations he told one of his soldiers to shoot a Palestinian detainee at a checkpoint.

The soldier says Col Omri Borberg ordered him to shoot the man at close range with a rubber-coated bullet.

Unknown to the Israelis, a Palestinian girl filmed the incident and the video was published by a human rights group.

Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak condemned the shooting as "grave and wrong" and said the military would exact the full extent of the law.

Israeli press says Col Borberg failed a second polygraph test about his version of events, after having passed an earlier test at a private institute last week.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7531109.stm

Shoot an Arab in toe! How terrible!! How tragic!!

Let's see. Once I posted about an Israeli tourist, Danny Mountwitten, who was lost in northern India in circumstnces that were less than savory, and Anamika sniffed haughtily that she didn't give a damn about Israeli tourists who get lost in India.

But this self same woman, who sniffed in contempt at a young man possibly (probably, now) losing his life, whined and cried over a soldier allegedly shooting an Arab in the toe on the command of his superior.

Not a word about the students murdered in cold blood in March by a trusted Arab; not a word about the three people murdered earlier this month by a front-loader, and the attempted murder of people attacked by a smaller bulldozer a week or so ago - both driven by Arabs.

Not a peep out of their collective "mouths" about the Arab mob that attacked a car in Samaria last Thursday, nor about the Arabs who attacked a bus in northern J-lem with rocks, was it just today or yesterday...

Not a peep from the ever great Canadian editor here about the Canadian Jews shot at by Arab terrorists in Gaza.

They're just Jews. Who gives a shit. Not only that, they're accursed Zionists! They had it coming to them.

And now the troll from LALA land chews on the allegedly wounded toe like it was a war crime.

Sorry folks. It just doesn't impress this Jew in the mountains of Samaria. First there was the "murder" of Mohammed al-Dura - a Pallywood fake; then there was the Jenin "massacre" - the pitched battle at Deir Yassin repackaged for the dumb and stupid by Pallywood; then there was poor Rachel Corrie, the spoiled mallrat from Washington State who had to stick her nose in a fight that wasn't hers; and now it the poor fuckin' Arab's toe!

Cry your crocodile tears - you know the price of everything and the value of nothing!! When you trolls can justify the three million dead in the "Gandhian peace separation" of 1948-49 and the thousands murdered off in communal violence in India and Pakistan in the sixty years since, then maybe, you can complain about the "evil murderous Zionists".

[EDITED]

YAWN. My hut is surrounded by far too young hash smoking, aggressive Israelis. Apparently now they get money from the government to come "recover" in India. Only problem - as my hut is in the hills - is that they bring the "occupier" mentality with them.

In the past five years or so, there seems to be a constant fight between us poor "natives" and our local administration and these just-out-of teens yobs.

Their blue print is simple: find a patch of land a little outside the village, close enough to make a dash down to the shops but far enough out to not force you to deal with the "natives." Move in with a dozen or so people to "camp" there. When a "native" comes by with his/her sheep, goats, cows, tell him/her you will be gone in a few days.

Except in the next day or so, more of these near-teens arrive to "camp." And then very quickly a fence goes up! And that poor native with the sheep gets threatened for bringing around the sheep to graze on his/her own land (or that owned by the panchayat). Sometimes when the "native" persists, these yobs set on them, attacking him/her with the full benefit of Israeli Occupation Forces training.

Eventually after a few weeks, the police is mobilized along with local DC and these settlers are moved out. Not without massive protests. And with huge outcries of "injustice", "transportation", historical memories and so forth.

Then at another part of the hills, the game starts all over again.

Where does all this happen? Well, check in Himachal, just down the path from my poor hut. Or make a trip down to parts of Rajasthan and Goa. How do you find it - just follow your nose for the drug clouds.

SS: This is not to be anti-Semitic but simply meant to demonstrate just how horrifically pernicious the settler mentality amongst Israelis can be. And that they can't even SEE that they can't simply "settle" (occupy) land just because it belongs to the "natives."

YAWN. My hut is surrounded by far too young hash smoking, aggressive Israelis. Apparently now they get money from the government to come "recover" in India. Only problem - as my hut is in the hills - is that they bring the "occupier" mentality with them.

In the past five years or so, there seems to be a constant fight between us poor "natives" and our local administration and these just-out-of teens yobs.

Their blue print is simple: find a patch of land a little outside the village, close enough to make a dash down to the shops but far enough out to not force you to deal with the "natives." Move in with a dozen or so people to "camp" there. When a "native" comes by with his/her sheep, goats, cows, tell him/her you will be gone in a few days.

Except in the next day or so, more of these near-teens arrive to "camp." And then very quickly a fence goes up! And that poor native with the sheep gets threatened for bringing around the sheep to graze on his/her own land (or that owned by the panchayat). Sometimes when the "native" persists, these yobs set on them, attacking him/her with the full benefit of Israeli Occupation Forces training.

Eventually after a few weeks, the police is mobilized along with local DC and these settlers are moved out. Not without massive protests. And with huge outcries of "injustice", "transportation", historical memories and so forth.

Then at another part of the hills, the game starts all over again.

Where does all this happen? Well, check in Himachal, just down the path from my poor hut. Or make a trip down to parts of Rajasthan and Goa. How do you find it - just follow your nose for the drug clouds.

SS: This is not to be anti-Semitic but simply meant to demonstrate just how horrifically pernicious the settler mentality amongst Israelis can be. And that they can't even SEE that they can't simply "settle" (occupy) land just because it belongs to the "natives."

anamika, what you said is not anti-semetic. it describes behavior that those of us who've been in those places have witnessed. you did not ascribe that kind of mentality to all jews. you simply pointed out a serious issue. I saw them myself in Goa and distanced myself as quickly as possible. They saw me and made comments, some of them very rude.... but then again they were too busy berating the locals and ordering people about in their drug-induced stupors to spend too much time on me.

Sorry, folks,

At one point, I might have said that the behavior of the Israeli veterans looking for cheap drugs in your country was wrong. At one point, I did. Now, I simply do not care. Not that the nasty, lying condemnations and Arab propaganda leeching into the comment section makes their behavior right - rather, these self-same condemnations make me lose what sympathy I might have for Indians victimized by these veterans' behavior.

It's just the way it works, folks. I'd much prefer that the veterans of my army country's NOT waste their money or their seed in your land - or on the whores of Thailand or the rest of east Asia. But, if they abuse you in the process, considering the abuse I endure here simply because I defend my homeland - I just don't care.

And I challenge anyone here to explain to me why I should.

ana:

#143 is uttered like a true attentikon seeking kahanite

ps: and as we all know "following a superior's order" defense cut no ice at nuremberg

;)

you should care, ruvy, because they are basically the only Jews that many Indians meet. and so the view that people get there of Jews is that we're all drugged up, bossy, dehumanizing, demeaning shit heads that do nothing but take drugs, drink until we vomit, hate anyone with brown skin, and behave abhorrently.

So the next time there is a Hitler on the loose, maybe India might say "who cares, look how they behave"

that is why you should care. their behavior sucks.

Ruvy:

""Shoot an Arab in toe! How terrible!! How tragic!!

Let's see. Once I posted about an Israeli tourist, Danny Mountwitten....(irrelevant blather edited)""

Irrelvant since the issue Troll-R took up was about a PARTICULAR incident, and not about generic issues.

Troll-R:

""Sorry, folks""

Please do not apologize. For all that you have inflicted on DC for so long, no apology is enough, even the sarcastic one that you intended.

smallsquirrel,

I don't need anybody to explain to me how the behavior of IDF combat veterans getting their rocks off and toking up in India sucks. I know that already. I also realize that as for being ambassadors of the reborn Jewish entity here, these kids' actions are pretty shitty at best.

[Edited]

Backing up what was written in comment #149. Jews were ambushed by Arabs and police arrested the Jews who fired in the air.

The warning from this article.
Eldad noted the decisions this week to place three Shomron Jews under house arrest and restrict Jewish entry to certain areas of Samaria. "If the security forces do not revert immediately to protecting Jews instead of fighting against them alongside the Arabs, a catastrophe can be expected - and the responsibility will lie squarely with the Defense Minister [Ehud Barak] and the Public Security Minister [Avi Dichter]."

Smallsquirrel,

Let's drive this home with a sledgehammer. I'll drag my own damned soap-box to say this, and having preserved it as an e-mail, keep posting it until the Desi editors who try to shut me up tire of the effort, or until they ban me altogether. If they do, you will lose, not I.

The truth of the matter, which many Indians (not to mention Americans and Europeans) do not want to admit to, is that my views are very common here.

I explain them without apology or backing down. Non-Jews are not used to Jews laying out facts flat in their faces and telling them what they are and not begging for approval (or in the case of Israeli businessmen or politicos, money). It rattles them, and shakes their amour-propre that some Jews will not roll over and beg for recognition - and are not afraid to condemn foreigners for their obvious shortcomings.

MenaHem Begin, z"l, was hated for this and Rabbi Kahane, hy"d, z"l, especially, was hated for this. Jews are supposed to be on their knees in front of the non-Jew seeking the "greater wisdom" to be found in the ashram, or in America's decadent consumo-porn culture. It doesn't make a whit of difference which foreign god is talked of here, the Jew is supposed to abandon his own beliefs and bow down to the foreigner and his ways.

Well, I am not such an individual, and millions of Hebrew speakers here are not either. You don't hear the Hebrew speakers - you can't understand them. But you hear me in plain English, and you don't like it.

But that is the voice of the future from this land. Last week, after a mob of Arabs attacked two Jews driving in Samaria with rocks, 100 Jews stormed into the village of Bourin and started pelting the resident Arabs with rocks. One of my neighbors down the road grabbed a soldier's gun and fired into the air.

Next time, or the time after that, Jews may stop firing into the air, and start inflicting on Arabs the genocide that they lustily call for as our own fate. It's not necessarily what I want to see, but enraged citizens will take the law into their own hands if the supposed enforcers of that law refuse to enforce it.

I warned long ago, both here and on Blogcritics, that the corrupted rotten Zionist state would collapse of its own corruption and lack of vision; this appears to be happening as i write this.

I, like my heroes, have been condemned by some on this list for refusing to roll over and recognize the "superior" Indic wisdom. these people cannot stand their own cages being rattled by bitter facts hurled in their faces. They call it hate-mongering, because they do not want to hear it.

So, they have no respect for me, or the millions in Israel who hold views similar to mine. If they do not wish to respect my views or the views of millions of my countrymen, I needn't give a damn if IDF combat veterans act like scum in India, even if I do not approve of it myself.

Sigh....the troll is racist and hates being called so. Alternatively, the troll thinks following a particular religion gives divine sanction to be racist. Either way its a sickening sight, much like watching Mullah Omar lapdance.

Troll R: Get over it. Jews lived in India for well over 2500 years in PEACE! YES NO POGROMS! NO KILLINGS! NO PERSECUTION!

The only issue any Indian has is to watch a bunch of European-decent racists build a settler colony and treat the "natives" like dirt. And not all the frothing at the mouth and ridiculous propaganda by you and and your ilk shall counter that basic truth. That little ruse of "poor me, victimised by the anti- Semites" might work on western sites (like your beloved blogcritics), but doesn't work with desis.

SS: Thanks for attempting to moderate the troll but of course any rationality is wasted on fanatics like Troll-R. And yes, unfortunately for far too many Indians, the only personal contact with Jews is via the foul-mouthed, drunken, drugged, racist, Israelis child-soldiers.

The BIG difference between Israeli and other western tourists however isn't the drinking or drugs or sex. Its the nastiness, the racism and the outright disrespect for Indian religious and cultural places and practices.

Far too often the Israeli child-soldiers are horrified by Muslims and mosques in India, and just the idea that the person next to you in a train or bus or restaurant may be Muslim.

And their reaction to Hinduism is a throwback to the worst of the colonial era. One recent clash btw in our hills was around a Devi cave shrine. Can you imagine an entire village getting into a fight (complete with the police being called out) because a bunch of tourist/settlers insisted on visiting the shrine and not removing their shoes, and secondly insisted on peeing all over the place?

I could write a book on the stuff the Israelis pull in India but even recounting these incidents here makes me ill. Fifteen years ago, in our area, the only "Jew" people knew about was General Jacobs (the war hero/ex Governor Punjab/President nominee). And so "Jews" were admired and respected. Now that perception has shifted. Funnily enough, NOW Gen Jacobs is seen as a "Christian" because he doesn't behave like the Israelis! Its really horrible to watch.

But then these Israeli ex-soldiers are cut from the same cloth as our local racist troll!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/30/israelandthepalestinians.middleeast
and it continues

ruvy, riddle me this....

I am a jew and I am used to pointed dialog from jews. and yet I still do not agree with you.

See the thing is this. The people here are reacting to your rhetoric not because they cannot take pointed talk from a jew. They are reacting because they feel your words are racist. I share their views. Many of the things you have said about Arabs were far beyond uncalled for.

This has nothing to do with an argument about superior logic and more to do with a people that do tend to know a bit more about trying to make it work in a multicultural/multiracial/multireligious land.

Do they have all the answers, certainly not. Could you use evidence like the Gujarat riots to say there are some gaping holes? yes, you sure could. Are there some strained relationships? Again yes. It is not perfect. But in the end it's working WAY better than what's happening in your neck of the woods.

You can talk all day about the evil done to you by Arabs. no doubt it happens. But when you spew filth and horror about a whole people, and denigrate a whole race, as you tend to do here, no one feels sorry for you anymore. They tend to believe in karma... and that means that what you put out, you sow.

Try to not put out so much hate, Ruvy, and see what might eventually come back to you.

SS: Bravo! Encore! :-)

Unfortunately I think you would have to do innumerable encores to get your point through. But bravo for trying.

anamika.. thank you.

oh an another thing ruvy. I am telling you something as a linguist. many times you begin by framing your dialog in a certain way. usually it is framed by you in terms of race. which more often than not means that because YOU have framed the conversation that way, it will come back to you that way.

had you framed the dialog another way, it would then come back to you that way...

I think in many cases what happens with you is self-fulfilling prophecy. you have an argument, but just by the very nature of how you frame it you then spin the whole thing to be able to say at the end "look! no one listens! everyone hates me!it's about me being a Jew!"

Please take some time to see how the responses to you only mirror what you are saying!!!

Jeez, how much i miss those good ol' catfights..

smallsquirrel,

So long as you call me Ruvy, my name, I'll talk with you.

A few points to clarify here. I didn't say I approve of the way Israeli sex and drug tourists behave in India. In fact, edited out of one of my comments was my statement that I prefer that our combat veterans NOT spend their money or their seed there. Toking up is wasting the money - giving it to crooked drug dealers in India. Far better that some car salesman or real estate agent in Israel feed his family with that money, and that these kids build their lives rather than ruin them in a foreign land.

What I said is, if I'm to be painted with the same brush of racism and disgusting behavior that Israeli drug and sex tourists display, then I see no reason why I should give a damn if the combat veterans who have put their lives on the line to protect me, pee in a Hindu temple. Read comment #151 and see my point.

As to what Arabs do to us, the point to all that is not that what they do is so terrible. Moslems did far worse in India centuries ago, and continue to do worse now in India, Sudan and in the Phillipine Islands. The point is that a criminal régime sitting in J-lem has decided to betray their trust - to build a Jewish homeland in Eretz Yisrael - and to work with the enemies of the Jewish people, out of fear, cowardice, greed and needless hatred. And in doing so, they will bring not only their own well deserved deaths upon their heads, but genocide upon Arabs - who may or may not deserve to be killed.

And the real enemies of the Jewish people are primarily twofold. The Wahhabi, who have made a mockery of Islam, and the oil and banking establishment of the United States corporate élite.

[EDITED]

As to the behavior of Israelis in India who desecrate holy places there, they will pay eventually. G-d does weigh the scales and exacts payment; it may not seem immediate, but rest assured, it will be severe. What comes around goes around.

[EDITED]:

""I warned long ago, both here and on Blogcritics, that the corrupted rotten Zionist state would collapse of its own corruption and lack of vision; this appears to be happening as i write this.""

Visions of being a prophet, not the false one! "If you're having visions, rush to doctor, FAST"! Whatever [EDITED]'s problem is, I bet it is hard to pronounce, even by professionals.

Go SS, go!

Unfortunately [EDITED] cannot pull this "me a vicitim of anti-Semitism but a bearer of TRUTH that no non-Jew wants to deal with" trip with you. (That fact that he is the only anti-Semite on DC is something he conveniently ignores....such as venting hate against secular jews and those he calls "kikes". Heck, even calling SS a "traitor" a "Trojan Horse" etc. multiple times)

A lesson on lesson not learned. Not even an attempt to learn:

Exhibit #1:

SS: ""oh an another thing ruvy. I am telling you something as a linguist. many times you begin by framing your dialog in a certain way. usually it is framed by you in terms of race. which more often than not means that because YOU have framed the conversation that way, it will come back to you that way.""

Exhbit #2:

Ruvy: ""I prefer that our combat veterans NOT spend their money or their seed there. Toking up is wasting the money - giving it to crooked drug dealers in India. Far better that some car salesman or real estate agent in Israel feed his family with that money, and that these kids build their lives rather than ruin them in a foreign land.""

Oh and [EDITED] can't do maths either. See how the figures get inflated for partition, not taken as percentages of overall population, and indeed, then we get the feed-other-trolls routine of "Muslims were horrible in India too."

Shall we try placing it in context of Palestinians killed and expelled as percentages of total population? But oh no, THAT would not happen because according to the [EDITED] mythology, the divinely promised land was empty, and in any case, Jewish suffering always over rides anyone else's.

Funny just HOW many of the "banking/oil" interests are actually run and controlled by the "Jews" (ooops - according to [EDITED], they aren't "real" Jews, and pointing such a thing out just makes me anti-Semitic).

If the Troll-R's hate speech were not being backed by killings and violence, I would be tempted to laugh them off. But like his peers [EDITED]'s hate speech is the safest part of his repertoire.

And its even sicker that DC gives this loon a forum to keep spouting ad nauseum. In the name of "free speech", DC manages to stoke Islamophobia (amongst those who read [EDITED] and are thrilled that he can say with impunity things that would be/have been edited when stated by other posters) as well as managing to feed anti-Semitism amongst those whose only view of Jews is the [EDITED].


Isn't that great! Mission accomplished!

Ruvy:

""the bottom line is that the normal business of the day in India and Pakistan both is unremitting communal violence with thousands dead.That is knowledge I gain from reading Desicritics on a regular basis.""

Cute! Echoes of James Mill writing a twisted multi-volume "History of India" and insisting he could judge India better BECAUSE he had never set foot there, but gathered all his information from a version of Desicritics of his time! Cute indeed!! Don't miss the "normal business of the day" part!

Another lesson on Lessons that will never be learned by the self-righeous and the wannabe prophet:

Exhibit #1:

SS: ""many times you begin by framing your dialog in a certain way. usually it is framed by you in terms of race. which more often than not means that because YOU have framed the conversation that way, it will come back to you that way.""

Exhibit #2:
Ruvy: ""No matter what evil we Jews may or may not have done here, they do not even hold a weak candle to the callous indifference to human life displayed on the Indian sub-continent in the last six decades.""

Anamika:

""But like his peers - Goebbels, Himmler, Hitler, bin Laden, Mullah Omar et al - Troll-R's hate speech is the safest part of his repertoire.""

So true, sad and sick. On a slightly positive note though, all of us can catch his twisted lack of logic and it's usually him who eventually let's his pants fall down, swears he will never come back, and then, predictably HE'S BACK!

My fool-proof prediction is that we can expect the usual suspects to convene on this thread. Those unnamed folks who will go on about the unfixable problems with Islam etc. etc. Or perhaps my prediction is just a self-denying prophecy.

Ruvy:

""So long as you call me Ruvy, my name, I'll talk with you.""

Wow! What an unexpected honour, holy prophet! You mean, you will REALLY talk to us? Hellelujah!! Our lucky day!

Editorial interjection - pl. stick to commenters' chosen nicks.

Secondly, the offensive comment from Ruvy on presumed Indian subcontinental tendencies has also been edited, so please don't assume the editing is one-sided, it may not be instantaneous and can be occasionally inconsistent, but we do endeavor to balance it out.

Ruvy, you haven't read enough about recent or pre-Independence Indian history to comment on the genesis or causes of communal violence. One would submit you are not qualified to comment on this complex topic, and there is no generic communal streak - we do not adhere to a one-topic agenda - fortunately:)

Aaman,

I'll await smallsquirrel's responses before I speak further. That is the only individual I am communicating with at the moment - she is actually communicating with me - for now. The other two individuals - well the less said, the better. Suffice it to say, whatever they are doing with their "comments", they are not communicating with me at all.

Editorial interjection - pl. stick to commenters' chosen nicks.

Please make sure that Temporal gets the memo - do check his comments....

Secondly, the offensive comment from Ruvy on presumed Indian subcontinental tendencies has also been edited,....

The nice thing about owning a site is that you get to set the rules; those who cannot abide them are generally welcome to leave. But please do not assume you get to change minds.

I'll not delve too deeply into this subject, but I'll say this: the back and forth I've read here on you own site has given me a painfully clear picture into the emotions of the residents of the sub-continent, as well as many of its ex-pats.

And you are right to assert that I do not know enough about the causes of communal violence on the sub-continent to comment on them. I don't, and I never have: I have only commented on the results.

Have a pleasant evening, and regards to Deepti.

And so it came to pass, in Comment #166 of our Lord the Lamba, that A Man of the PC spoke. And his voice was just, and good, and all that heard what he said were thankful. "Praise be to the Lamba", they said, and "Who's your Anna?"s were sung, and the great courtesan La Dixit was brought in to dance, and much Jalwa was shown, and lambs were slaughtered for the great feast to celebrate the great return of Hope to the beleaguered scribes that walked within the halls Desicritical Temple in our fair city of Cyberspaciea.

But one man, Ruvy of the Burger Flippant, who was once perhaps an Israelite, but had renounced all that was great and all that was good within the Israelite tribe left to wander in exile as a Kaha-ho-tum-ite in the barren hills of Samaria, heard A Man and what he spake, and verily he was afraid.

But pride was strong within Ruvy of the Burger Flippant, and lo, as was foretold by the seers from the lands beyond Persia, he rose up in anger; verily, for vengeance burned strong in his breast. "I am the true follower of my only prophet Kahan-ho-tum-e and I am not ignorant, as this A Man hath accusedeth me of being" he blustered, his conjugation of old Biblic being the first casualty of his anger. And he gathered up his robes, little realising that that strange burning smell from five minutes ago was actually his own pants on fire (for verily woth he a liar, as the Ishmaelite women had sung as they queued before checkpoints to get through to their daily bread and olive) and stomped off further into the barren hills at the edges of Cyberspaciea. But his conscience was prickl-ed, for as he walked through Samaria he was troubled by the virtue and piety of a good daughter of the House of David, and verily was he reminded of her when he saw a small squirrel living in peace, and he was troubled.

But the commonsensical yet nameless seers of Persia smiled, frankly smoking their incense, and they prophesied, "do not rejoice unduly, slaughter not yet all your lambs, for Ruvy of the Burger Flippant shall return. And he shall bring fire and brimstone with him, and it shall not be pretty (especially since he's going to be missing his pants again). Gird your loins, build your walls, for the Kaha-ho-tum-ite does not walk in fear, but thankfully does not walk with much direction. He is like the fey wind that is risen in the desert only to blow sand into your face and get grit into your chocolate cake. But be not fearful for he shall not be victorious - not in the halls of Cyberspaciea."

(Sorry folks - just read Gerard Baker's column in the Times Online about Obama and was "inspired"... ;P)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/gerard_baker/article4392846.ece)

If comments are being suitably edited, Aaman, could you please also purge #111 referring to denizens and natives of the subcontinent? This particularly barbaric one doesn't really like being called a native...

We're all natives of the Rift Valley, I believe - that and the great Deep

TBS,

Ha Ha! Great one!

I did forget to add though: [EDITED]

Ruvy:

""I'll await smallsquirrel's responses before I speak further. That is the only individual I am communicating with at the moment - she is actually communicating with me - for now.""

I, one of the two unnamed indviduals, totally understand, given the heavy demand for your nuggets of wisdom. I hope you do not mind if I at least imbibe what you write, so I can vicariously siphon off some of your truth-serum, until such a time when you will, hopefully, agree to directly channel your wisdom to me and only to me. Rapture, then it will be.

hey editors, apologies for downloading more work on you folks! Will restrain and re-train myself.

If comments are being suitably edited, Aaman, could you please also purge #111 referring to denizens and natives of the subcontinent? This particularly barbaric one doesn't really like being called a native...

Can't hack it without a Desi editor to keep the evil Jew from Samaria from offending you, eh?

Go, reread your own "inspired" comment, TBS, and see what a hypocrite you are. Who knows? You might be smart enough to figure it out all by yourself.

Ruvy,

Even if you cannot respond to my comments, I am sure you must at least be reading them. Please, please, don't tell me you don't! That in itself is plenty communication for me. I know I should not expect more! Everytime you read my comments, I can feel that truth serum seeping in and finding its way into my so-called brains.

Dear Ruvy of the Burger Flippant,

Actually, I don't need a Desi editor from offending me - you manage to do it all by yourself without help. And as far as hypocrisy goes, well, you accusing me of it would be a case of the coalmine calling the speck of dirt black (or native, as the case may be). My smartness (both of the alecky and as*y ilk) has never been in question my entire life, so I can pretty easily impute what you're on about when you talk of hypocrisy. It's called parody / satire / general shooting the sh*t - deal with it. If you can't, well, I would kindly redirect you to the part where you stomp off in a huff to the hills of Samaria.

On a more serious note, all I feel is this terribly sad sense of "karuna" for you - you are so blinded by hatred and violence that you cannot even begin to understand what normal human interaction is about. Maybe one day God (yours, mine or those of the members of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster even) will grant you the peace of mind and soul that you so desperately need. Until then, keep stomping and getting grit into my chocolate cake - and try to find a pair of pants, will you?

TBS, the failed burger flippant (editors please edit away, if you have to!! i have my usual case of typing diarrohea)

to be fair to Ruvy, no prophet can afford to be flippant, so he necessarily has to be an ex-burger flippant.

common.. there is a difference between responding snarkily out of frustration and baiting, and I think you're baiting. stop calling names, yaar... it's not helping the cause (same for TBS). seriously, I feel at this point like you're begging for a fight just for entertainment's sake. that is really not the point here. I know that it's frustration. I get frustrated too. but take the high road! :)

ruvy... not sure how to respond. not much else to say. I think you missed my points by a mile.

SS,

I agree with you entirely!

When I was young, there was a popular British movie called _The Crying Game_ in which a black character keeps repeating "It's in his nature" to everything. Forget the context. It's in my nature to be unnecessarily impish, mischevious especially when dealing with someone like HIM. However, I agree, despite my advanced age, such antics on my part frequently degrade into childish pettiness that I should curb.

In other words: your point taken and with a shovel of gratitude too!

we *all* lose our minds sometimes. it's not like I have never gone off the deep end here. :P

TBS: that was hilarious! :-) absolutely brilliant. Made me laugh...and god knows laughter is good medicine for hatred. ;-)

SS: I think eventually satire is the only real tool against blind and fanatic hatred. I understand your frustration but if satire can expose the inanity of the hatred, then what better?

"And you are right to assert that I do not know enough about the causes of communal violence on the sub-continent to comment on them. I don't, and I never have: I have only commented on the results."

Yep, this is when I turn around and say that I do not know about the causes of the destruction of the European Jewry. I don't, and I never have (and the small (un)print says that I am not interested enough to bother finding out): I have only commented on the results.

As they said in math class, QED!

anamika, to a certain point I agree. but I think there are times when the rhetoric has died down to a dull roar where we can see that there has been a certain amount of daring him to come back and throwing stones at the hornet's nest just as the hornets had finally been put to bed, as it were.

OK shit poor mixed bad analogy.

I think there has been useful satire and baiting both. one is useful, one is not.

SS:

""I think there has been useful satire and baiting both. one is useful, one is not.""

Sometimes a bait does trigger of a deba(i)te though. sorry, could not resist :)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2008/jul/30/beaumont.palestine

SS: this is not meant to be "baiting" just an act of conscience.

PS: unless you have a very fast connection, let the video play out in the background and then watch it on the replay.

Re comment #185:

Bookmarked it for viewing at a later, more relaxed time.... Always good to see what kind of propaganda the enemy would use against us.

Thanks!

so, OK Ruvy, explain this. I was watching this program last night. will have to get a link. one NGO has given Palestinians who live in the west bank and other disputed territories video cameras. and they caught footage of all kinds of things. like an elderly couple arab on their farm which they have had in the family for hundreds of years. then 4 masked settlers come with sticks and beat them and tell them to get off the land.

WTF is that about? how do you justify it?

another child caught on camera one jewish man dragging a palestinian child (girl, of about 6 years olf) by the arm and calling her a dog and telling her that she is worthless.

Will find links soon, in the meantime, care to justify?

Vinod, Until you know about those around Bush (Perle, Feith, Wolfowotz, Libby, etc.) supporting the war in Iraq, you will not see the connection. But you might want to check the interview given by Tom Friedman to Avi Shalem published in Israel in which Friedman says that 25 people wihthin a square mile of him made the war in Iraq possible.

SS to Ruvy:

"...another child caught on camera one jewish man dragging a palestinian child (girl, of about 6 years olf) by the arm and calling her a dog and telling her that she is worthless.
WTF is that about? how do you justify it?""

Sure he can and sure he will! just brace yourself for the boilerplate antics...

Ruvy:

""Re comment #185:

Bookmarked it for viewing at a later, more relaxed time.... Always good to see what kind of propaganda the enemy would use against us.

Thanks!""

as in: let me consult the rest of my mates to figure out what the official line about discrediting this new video is.

I didn't watch the video yet, and I'm not commenting on anything that I haven't seen.

But I do have a piece of good news. TBS decided to take a stroll over to Blogcrtitics and leave an intelligent comment there. ("Commonsense" did leave troll-like comments at an article of mine there and I ignored him - one does not feed trolls!) I don't agree with him, and will comment appropriately when I don't have to worry about working, which won't be for a while yet today.

But TBS did something that a lot of you folks refuse to do. I won't guess at his motives....

Laters!

ss:

was this the video? (from guardian by way of realnews) LINK

Wont speculate on TBS's motives but boredom may well be one of them. Or TBS decided that hate speech needs to be stopped even on BC (lol).

SS: you said something about baiting? How do we classify a fanatic who uses DC to spew hatred, be overtly racist about desis, wallow in his own hubristic ignorance about all things desis, but insists on issuing challenges for us desis to come out to Blogcritics?

Ruvy: you seem to miss a basic point (not surprisingly given your history). Most of us visit DC because we ARE desis or are INTERESTED in stuff that is desi. I feel no need to follow your hate speech elsewhere on cyberspace. I would just like hate speech to be limited on and/or eliminated from DC.

Of course, why YOU insist on being on DC is still up for speculation as you are neither desi nor even vaguely interested in desi matters!

(Kicks the ground, hands dug deep into pockets) -Aw shucks (that is the appropriate lingo in burger flipping land, isn't it?) Ruvy, I didn't know you cared enough to follow my every move in cyberspace! And not only that, you actually used the word "intelligent" in relation to one of my humble posts - I'm gobsmacked

(Hums the tune to The Police's "Don't Stand So Close to Me" and starts thinking about importing the Great Firewall of China for personal protection against cyberstalkers)

I'm looking forward to your response, though I have a fairly good idea of what it will be about; could it be where you ask for the full annexation of "Judea and Samaria" and the removal of all Arab presence from the West Bank?! Or something about dealing with Arab terror? Or something in the same strand?

(Cue Karl Lagerfeld voice) That is SO yesterday darling - everyone's looking at the Autumn collection now, and you're still on last year's Spring. Come up with something new and I'll be interested....

Anamika - if I started to attack every purveyor of online hatred, I would be a very busy man indeed; its amazing how many people are out there to just spew venom and bile, Kahan-ho-tum-ites not being the only ones of that ilk. Boredom was one thing - if any of you follow the economy, you'll see that M&A activity has moved downwards this year, so I tend to have a little more free time at work, and responding to a comment provides a modicum of intellectual stimulation, as opposed to whiling away endless hours on Facebook (not that I'm knocking Facebook!)

But more importantly just because I am on DC doesn't mean I insist on living in a cyber ghetto (ducks while Ruvy chucks something at him for using the "g" word for a non-Semite) where all I do is hang out with desi people. It's not that I ain't brown and proud of it - but I'm more than JUST brown!

And don't knock Ruvy's presence on DC - he shows us, with each rabid frothing at the mouth post of his, where faith without reason and compassion lead you and what it will make you.

Smallsquirrel, those videos/citizen media reports deserve an article of their own, methinks.

From the woman who wrote: How do we classify a fanatic who uses DC to spew hatred, be overtly racist about desis, wallow in his own hubristic ignorance about all things desi... we get this classic:

I would just like hate speech to be limited on and/or eliminated from DC.

Well, at least I understand how it was that Eve got Adam to taste of the forbidden fruit.... You should have batted your eyelashes when typing that line - it would have been more convincing....

TBS:

you on the facebook (the bar just dipped on the Estimator Chart)

ps: am using part of your comment 168/175 for a post

Ruvy:

""("Commonsense" did leave troll-like comments at an article of mine there and I ignored him - one does not feed trolls!)""

Usurprisingly, this is not the very first time Ruvy is lying.

(Eds, this is NOT a personal attack, since he is indeed lying, as the cut/paste below establishes. Just a statement of facts, that Ruvy will no doubt explain away without a hint of embarrasment)

In Ruvy's lexicon and divine metric of truth, "I ignored him" means this:

(http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/07/03/132917.php)

#9 -- July 3, 2008 @ 23:56PM -- commonsense
Ironical that Ruvy whines about the BBC portraying the news as a "bulldozer attack" while the title of his piece is "vehicular attack"

#10 -- July 4, 2008 @ 01:50AM -- Ruvy
For those who do not know this and who may have problems with the title of this piece: the original title - the one I submitted when I hit "pending" and sent this baby in - was "Arab from East Jerusalem 'Goes Postal' on the Jaffa Road: Update, Backstory and Analysis."

The editor who went over this for Blogcritics Magazine changed the title.

For those still chewing on my comments about (This is Londonistan) the BBC and how it got caught with its shorts down by Honestreporting, go to that site's 'Backspin' section and complain. Before you complain, read their report so at least you know what it is you are whining about - you'll get chewed up alive there otherwise.

Love and kisses,
Ruvy""

Benign options for Ruvy to explain this lie away:

1. Feign bad memory

2. Claim that his response did not actually say "Dear Commonsense" even though he did actually adress my post, immediately after I posted.

3. Try, once again, to teach English to desis, by expounding on the etymology of "respond", "ignore" etc.

4. Foam and froth, since the pants are down once again, and nothing can be done about it, thanks for cyberspace that records everything and can be very unforgiving towards those who lie, especially when that lie is laced with illegitimate chutpzah

5. Claim that truth and lies mean different things in eastern and western cultures.

Anamika:

""SS: you said something about baiting? How do we classify a fanatic who uses DC to spew hatred, be overtly racist about desis, wallow in his own hubristic ignorance about all things desis, but insists on issuing challenges for us desis to come out to Blogcritics?"'

Classic template for a bully. Haven't we all encountered or heard about the line "come to my neighbourhood (BC in this case) and see what a thrashing you will get"?

Ruvy:

""From the woman who wrote: How do we classify a fanatic who uses DC to spew hatred""

Hey Eds, didn't we have an agreement to address each other by the nicks they choose:) Does it mean we can resume using Troll-R for Ruvy?

smallsquirrel,

Since I'm being called a liar, I'll deign to answer this garbage.

At this article at Blogcritics, I addressed the issue raised by "commonsense", but not him. I had no desire to. And if you go back to the comment thread there, you'll see that many of the comments surrounded my offhand criticism of the BBC - which is exactly what "commonsense" attempted to use to create a stupid argument with.

So, it was necessary to address the issue - but not the poster - and "commonsense" has done the exact same thing himself here.

Smiling editors refers to comment policy.

Entirely predictable, as predicted:

Exhibit #1:

Commonsense:

""Benign options for Ruvy to explain this lie away:

2. Claim that his response did not actually say "Dear Commonsense" even though he did actually adress my post, immediately after I posted.""

Exhbit 2:

Ruvy "explaining it away":

At this article at Blogcritics, I addressed the issue raised by "commonsense", but not him. I had no desire to. And if you go back to the comment thread there, you'll see that many of the comments surrounded my offhand criticism of the BBC - which is exactly what "commonsense" attempted to use to create a stupid argument with.

So, it was necessary to address the issue - but not the poster - and "commonsense" has done the exact same thing himself here.""

Any more questions about what exactly the terms "lie", "address" "ignore" etc. mean? Perhaps even "squirm" and "wiggle" but that is not a requirement for folks beyond embarrassment. [EDITED - STICK TO ENGLISH]

[EDITED]

Entirely predictable, as predicted:

Exhibit #1:

Commonsense:

""Benign options for Ruvy to explain this lie away:

2. Claim that his response did not actually say "Dear Commonsense" even though he did actually adress my post, immediately after I posted.""

Exhbit 2:

Ruvy "explaining it away":

At this article at Blogcritics, I addressed the issue raised by "commonsense", but not him. I had no desire to. And if you go back to the comment thread there, you'll see that many of the comments surrounded my offhand criticism of the BBC - which is exactly what "commonsense" attempted to use to create a stupid argument with.

So, it was necessary to address the issue - but not the poster - and "commonsense" has done the exact same thing himself here.""

Any more questions about what exactly the terms "lie", "address" "ignore" etc. mean? Perhaps even "squirm" and "wiggle" but that is not a requirement for folks beyond embarrassment. Can anyone explain to him what "dheet" in Hindi means?

Smiling editors refers to comment policy.

Smiling editors refers to the comment policy

Smiling editors refers to the comment policy

Smiling editors refers to the comment policy

Smiling editors refers to the comment policy

Sigh...guess [ED - PL. STICK WITH NICKS] (Eds: is that an acceptable moniker?)has finally lost it! Is that because the "natives" didn't bow and scrape before the divinely sanctioned proclamations that he made?

Or is it because [ED] is so used to bullying, beating up and killing the "natives" in real life that he doesn't have another way to engage with them in cyberspace?

Either way - frothing at the mouth is never pretty. But this one has sunk even further than Mullah Omar's lap-dancing (never thought THAT would happen!).

I would consider post #191 a "bait" and I willingly took it. He was discussing something quite unrelated and brought me, unnecessarily, in the picture, about having ignored my comment on BC when in fact he had done exactly the opposite.

And now he is explaining it away in quite the lawyerly style.

Dear "smiling editor"

Get it straight. I read the comments policy a long time before this site opened, and I know well how to follow it.

There is nothing in there about censoring out terms like "Liberated Samaria" etc. The policy refers to people. There is nothing in there that refers to baiting either. In other words, if commonsense wants to bait, that's fine - but don't edit me out if I bait back.

Your standards are seriously flawed and biased. If you wish to continue to edit in a biased fashion, by all means continue to do so. This site will be no different than other sites that edit in a biased fashion - AND I'LL CALL YOU OUT ELSEWHERE. This is not a threat. And it is not a personal attack.

cs:

re this:

AND I'LL CALL YOU OUT ELSEWHERE.

is the holy one paging

(a) god
(b) mossad
(c) moshe paanwala
(d) dmitri chaplin
(e) men in white with restrainers
(f) none of above

Anamika:

""Mullah Omar's lap-dancing (never thought THAT would happen!).""

Tried to visualize this and almost gagged with laughter.

Temporal:

Indeed! Elswhere! I will call out Dmitri Chaplin
elsewhere!

Anamika:

""Mullah Omar's lap-dancing (never thought THAT would happen!).""

Tried to visualize this and almost gagged with laughter.

Temporal:

Indeed! Elswhere! I will call out Dmitri Chaplin
elsewhere!

Ruvy:

""There is nothing in there that refers to baiting either. In other words, if commonsense wants to bait, that's fine - but don't edit me out if I bait back.""

1. Strange, since Ruvy did bait me in #191, but he came out with his non-existent pants sliding a few centimeters further down.

2. I believe I am the one who expressly pointed out to Ruvy, quite some time back, that "no baiting" is not an official comment policy. Way back when he was as usual whining about baiting. I agree though, baiting is not good (ie. commonsense)

I've heard one too many times the Jews being blamed for everything. As if they spend all day twisting their mustaches and hatching plots. They lived in peace with the Hindus in India while the muslims have been a constant problem. Palestinians should just accept that Israel has been there for 60 years and it's not going anywhere. When it comes to muslims they always like to reclaim all the lands won by their ancestors. Thats what the Jihad in india is all about. Every culture has a right to have a land where they are in a Majority. The Jews are expected to live as minorities in different nations for all times to come so they can be easy targets. How many lands have the Christian and the Muslims conquered? I would like to live in a multicultural world instead of the christians or muslims trying to takeover the whole world and destroying diversity. Yes, politics is dominated by the dominant religion if ever the christians or muslims are in majority in a nation. Yet the Pseudo secularists and the commies support the oppressors.

A few comments before going off to answer TBS at Blogcritics;

TBS, you can always download a free anti-cyberstalking virtual Rottweiler from http://www.cyberstalkersRus.rus. All you have to do is date the site owner, "the beautiful Natasha", for six years. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder - "the beautiful Natasha" weighs in at 200 kilos, and has trouble navigating down-hill (so rumor has it).

But that cyber-stalking Rottwirler is really worth the 0 rupees you pay for it....

Seriously, I saw your name on the fresh comments list at BC, and was curious as to your comment....

Commonsewnse, my boy, it looks like you've gotten yourself a little fan club (see comment 218)! Yep, what comes around, goes around, and it looks like it's just come around for you.

Nice to see you, here, Rohan.... Don't be surprised if you get an alcohol "slap" for daring to back up Jewish rights.

Sigh....get over it already!

Rohan - nobody has questioned Jewish rights! Read up on the history of Palestine and its current situation. Or just scroll up and read some of the stuff written by Small Squirrel (you do realise that SHE is Jewish too? - just not of the Mullah Omar fanatic variety!)

I would like to know whether in this "multicultural" world that you want, six year old children can be killed for being Muslim? Or babies shot just for being of the wrong religion? Or women purposefully prevented from getting to medical care because hey they are just producing more "Arabs" (or "enemies" as Ruvy would say) by Israeli soldiers at checkposts and so they BLEED TO DEATH while IOF watches?

Or is that (according to you) fair payment for "jihad" carried out by Arabs from the peninsula, Turks and Persians?

Alternatively, scroll up and see the other suggestions for "Jewish" rights offered by the resident fanatic: it might make you as a Hindu feel wonderful to have some foreigner approve of "his" people peeing in a temple, it sure doesn't appear to me as "multicultural."

Simple fact remains that no good can ever come at the expense of another people. So fine, have a nation, but if that nation is built on someone else's misery, its doomed in the long run. Thats not rocket science, its basic karma. And if you look back at history, there is ample evidence to be found.

Rohan,

I would suggest you read the entire comments trail before making sweeping statements like, "the jews being blamed for everything". What you are doing here is conflating the idea that all Jews are Israelis, and vice versa. Please do not fall into that trap, because all you do is leave yourself exposed to accusations of anti-Semitism for criticising Israeli policies. Not that you'd be doing that in the near future, I suspect.

Your comment about "every culture has the right to claim the land where they are in the majority" sounds great. So let's talk about Kashmir, which is the ONLY Muslim majority state in India. Why not just HAND it over to Pakistan?

Yours secular friend,
TBS

Ruvy,

Congratulations on getting Rohan as an unwitting ally, since the other two have deserted you. You need all the help you can get, even though he has some trouble distinguishing between the elbow and the mangoes was it? I'm done with you, albeit unlikely for the last time. It seems you love what is meted out to you here, complaints about victimization notwithstanding, indeed being part of your routine. adieu.

Kashmir has been an integral part of india to since the 1947 treaty. You commies and your muslim allies better get used to the Idea that Kashmir is an integral part of India and Israel is not going anywhere either. I know you commies like to paint everyone who is capable of thinking for themselves as evil and twisted. You seem to think you have patent rights to whatever is moral and declare who's immoral. Buddha smiled exposes his pseudo secularism by advocating that muslims only live with muslims and join Pakistan but he seems to have a different set of morals for the Jews and Hindus.

Anamika where is your bleeding heart liberal attitude when the same happens to Jewish children or when Jews live like Dhimmis in Islamic countries just for being of the "wrong religion". They will never be safe until they have atleast one land on earth where they are in a majority. I don't care about commie ethics which seem to represent selective outrage and suspect ethics.

[EDITED - IRRELEVANT]

My my - looks like Rohan has a bit of a temper.

So based on what you say in comment # 224, Rohan, Kashmir must remain an integral part of India, despite it being a Muslim majority state.
However, let me just QUOTE your sentence from comment #218:

"Every culture has a right to have a land where they are in a Majority."

By YOUR logic, if the Kashmiri Muslim community WANT to be a part of India, why stop them? Since apparently that as a logic holds for Israel, why NOT Kashmiri Muslims? If this is not the case, are you not the one who "represents selective outrage and suspect ethics", as you accuse Anamika of harbouring in comment #225?

For the record, I am neither Kashmiri, nor Muslim, but AM a lucid, cogent individual who thinks for himself. And you can laugh and call me commie all you like, which is particularly ironic given my own place on the political spectrum, but you merely display your own ignorance.

Evil and twisted? I think not - again, using your own words, you would need to be able to think for yourself.

By the way - if you want to think of CS in any form of tight clothing, feel free to do so. The good thing about being a pseudo-secularist is that I am completely comfortable with you and whatever rocks your boat. :)

Rohan: Methinks you contradict yourself! Following your own (very flawed) argument, Kashmir has been a Muslim majority land for MUCH longer than Israel has existed. So ACCORDING TO YOU, it should be given to the people who are in "majority." Funny how facile elisions and conflations don't hold up to rational scrutiny, isn't it?

Btw, ALL Jews are NOT Israeli! In fact not even the majority of Jews in the world are Israeli. So get over the conflation of Jews equals Israeli. You might want to start reading up on the Jews who don't agree with the way Israel behaves. Your favourite poster (Ruvy) will tell you that its because those Jews are not "real" Jews. And that will sound EXACTLY like the fanatics who condemn Muslims who don't agree with the Taliban as not "real" Muslims.

Btw, my heart bleeds for ANYONE who is at the mercy of a brutal oppressive state based on principles of apartheid, discrimination and extermination. That includes Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Jains, Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists, Atheists and Flying Spaghetti Monster worshippers. Same goes for ALL races.

What I DON'T agree with is that ANYONE has the right to inflict misery, discrimination, persecution on anyone else simply because historically THEY suffered terribly.

That would apply equally to black South Africans who lived under apartheid imposing similar discrimination on the Afrikaaners, as well to Israelis who have turned the Holocaust deaths into a justification for treating the Palestinians with the same ideological impetus that the Nazis treated them (albeit with far more sophistication in killing).

Rohan,

Let's give you a brief summary of what it is that Anamika is getting at with her comment above: Alternatively, scroll up and see the other suggestions for "Jewish" rights offered by the resident fanatic...."

From comment #151

"The BIG difference between Israeli and other western tourists however isn't the drinking or drugs or sex. Its the nastiness, the racism and the outright disrespect for Indian religious and cultural places and practices.

.........

And their reaction to Hinduism is a throwback to the worst of the colonial era. One recent clash btw in our hills was around a Devi cave shrine. Can you imagine an entire village getting into a fight (complete with the police being called out) because a bunch of tourist/settlers insisted on visiting the shrine and not removing their shoes, and secondly insisted on peeing all over the place?"


My response.... - From a comment that I had to fight to get on here, comment #150

"So, they have no respect for me, or the millions in Israel who hold views similar to mine. If they do not wish to respect my views or the views of millions of my countrymen, I needn't give a damn if IDF combat veterans act like scum in India, even if I do not approve of it myself."

And from comment #157....

"A few points to clarify here. I didn't say I approve of the way Israeli sex and drug tourists behave in India. In fact, edited out of one of my comments was my statement that I prefer that our combat veterans NOT spend their money or their seed there. Toking up is wasting the money - giving it to crooked drug dealers in India. Far better that some car salesman or real estate agent in Israel feed his family with that money, and that these kids build their lives rather than ruin them in a foreign land.

What I said is, if I'm to be painted with the same brush of racism and disgusting behavior that Israeli drug and sex tourists display, then I see no reason why I should give a damn if the combat veterans who have put their lives on the line to protect me, pee in a Hindu temple. Read comment #151 and see my point."

That will save you some reading, hopefully, Rohan.

And Anamika, think on this for a second, since you are pretty big on karma.

In this land, we are taught to respect the holy places of foreigners. It's partly bad upbringing - very bad upbringing - that makes most of our combat veterans who seek to toke up cheaply in your native land behave the way they do. But it is not all bad upbringing.

Some of it is karma - your own evil coming to piss in your faces - literally.

Why would these kids, relatives of a people who were never (or almost never) persecuted in your native land, pee in a Hindu Temple?

What evil might that be?

This, I do not know. I can speculate, as all sorts of evils have been written about all over the pages of this magazine. Evils that I find disgusting. But I'll abstain from speculating. I'll let you do something completely different - search your own soul.

Buddha Smiled [ED-IRRELEVANT] Kashmir has had a Hindu culture predating the muslims in Kashmir. Would you like to comment on the plight of Kashmiri Hindus? I guess not, since communist history begins and ends with the Era that suits their relative position the best at the time. [ED - WISHFUL THINKING]

Anamika, I don't indulge in favoritism, that is a leftist sport. Go ahead and censor all that oppose your political stand. So much for plurality, eh! Infact, it was my first post on Israel and i don't even know Ruvy. I presume people have best intentions at heart until proven otherwise. What Individual Israeli combat veterans do in India reflects on those individuals. It can be taken up with the proper authorities. It is not official Israeli policy to abuse Hindu culture. But it is the official policy of the Islamo Commies to abuse and destroy cultures and break down temples. Sorry, but i'll not start hating Ruvy, Jews, Israelis in general or IDF combat veterans just because commies like you want me to, and would go to any length to paint them as evil monsters. I am a free individual not a Marx or Mao Deist.

Sure commie moderators will decide what as the self appointed "moral betters" is the Agenda of discussion and what others should talk about also. They are self appointed to speak for both sides. No one else dare have a point of view!

Ruvy, please remember to close your italics:)

Ruvy: As CS maintains, you ARE predictable.

Jewish is NOT equal to Israeli. So the little "evidence" your produced simply demonstrates that my specific comment on ISRAELIS not Jews! There are a LOT of JEWISH tourists in India from all parts of the world. They are as appalled and disgusted by ISRAELI behaviour as the desis. So get over it already!

As for "respecting holy places" - how is the construction of the ramp that threatens to destroy the Al Aqsa mosque coming along? When the mosque falls - as even Israeli architects have estimated it will - will that be "divine" action or simply an act of "respect for holy places"?

Rohan: Israeli official policy shows ZERO respect for any culture that is not white. Why don't you google statements made by Israeli diplomats in India and elsewhere to the press? Why don't you just look up archives of publicly available articles by some of the more esteemed members of Israeli polity written for the Indian press that show quite clearly their racist view of the world.

Specific Israeli soldiers behave EXACTLY the way they have been taught to behave. They are taught by their government that they need show no respect for any "native" or "barbaric" culture. They have also been taught that they can kill those who follow another religion with impunity (worse case, they have to pay a 25 shekel fine for killing a Palestinian). They have been taught that they are the only people chosen by god and all others are lower beings ("untermenschen" if you want to use the German/Nazi equivalent) unworthy of respect or dignity.

It doesn't surprise me that they behave in India (and other places) in ways they have been taught and encouraged to behave by OFFICIAL ISRAELI policy. It does make me sick and very sad because they help create anti-Semitism even in places where there is no history of it.

Btw, if you would like to talk of a pre-Islamic Kashmir, and use that as the basis for your argument, then why not use the SAME standard for Palestine. Prior to 1948 and the naqba (the catastrophe of forced removal of Palestinians), that land had been populated by Palestinians. So if you want to go back 800 years for Kashmir, give me ONE reason why we shouldn't go back 60 years for Palestine?

And please don't use the "commies" line simply because you cant hold an argument. The very fact that you are posting here and we are discussing with you makes your statement about "all that oppose (my) political stand is censored" untrue.

Well, Anamika, I see that searching your own soul may be difficult for you. I do not wish to make life difficult for you; your self righteousness makes it difficult enough, I suppose....

Your ignorance of the Temple Mount and its makeup is evident in this comment: "As for "respecting holy places" - how is the construction of the ramp that threatens to destroy the Al Aqsa mosque coming along? When the mosque falls - as even Israeli architects have estimated it will - will that be "divine" action or simply an act of "respect for holy places"?"

The Temple Mount is a garbage dump with garbage piled upon it for two millennia or so, since the Roman savages destroyed the Temple of Hordós. The site holy to G-d on it lies deep under the surface.

In addition, it is located on a rather extensive earthquake fault.

In the last seven years, in an unremitting attempt to destroy the evidence of a Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount, the Arab Waqf has been digging into the Temple Mount in violation of the Israel Antiquities Act, expanding its mosques, and in the process, weakening the structure of a garbage dump.

This garbage dump will come collapsing down with the first really severe earthquake that hits the city of Jerusalem. The mosque will come collapsing down with it, due not to the actions of the Israeli government, but due to the action of the Waqf in weakening the structure of the Temple Mount itself.

Since this is G-d's universe, everything that occurs in it, is, in some way, Divine Action. That's just by way of definition. As for the rest, as we see, your ignorance exposes itself once again. And Anamika, what some British newspaper or Arab blog says means nothing to me. I've been a Jerusalem resident for five years, and have visited the Western Wall and the area around it, and have seen with my own eyes the damage the Arabs have done to the Temple Mount - OUR HOLY SITE!

When this earthquake does occur, and the Arab and Christian contaminations upon it disappear, it will be a day of rejoicing for us, and a day of fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.

Sabbath peace to you all....

From the mountains of Samaria,
Ruvy

Well, Anamika why shouldn't i go back 800 years?Why do you stop at 60? Is that some holy Marxist figure? Why don't you go back even furthur in Israel when Jews were ousted by the muslims. Two can play at that game. Fact is Kashmir and Israel have had Indigenous cultures before the islamic era. Why does Leftist History begin or end in an Era that supports their relative position. Quite convenient isn't it? I'm willing to argue but can you do it in a factual manner or you will continue to pursue history selectively. But nobody can talk about the truth of Islam can they? That would be slander but everyone elses dead horse can be flogged. Your High moral ground was lost when the Leftists sent Tasleema Nasreen to a BJP ruled state instead of showing moral fibre and defending secularism. History is a means to an end for communists. No wonder your commie friends at JNU who'eve hijacked education, white washed Islamic brutality in Indian history to "preserve peace". So much for your opportunist, selective facts.

If you want to talk about the value of life, why is no criticism forthcoming from the leftists on Islam? In Islamic countries the Muslim man is supreme. The life of a muslim woman is worth half a muslim man. A Christian man is equal to muslim women but less than muslim men. Christian women are furthur down. People of the book still have some status. Then come the poor idolators who are worth less than camels. Blood libel is the way. Your concern for Human life is a relativist stand, please don't preach morality to others.

I didn't get a chance to read the posts that were edited out, so I guess I'll never know. But let me respond to the questions that were asked by Rohan in #231.

I really wish you'd stop calling me a commie - especially since you get my politics SO wrong you do both me and the commies a grave disservice.

Please do not also preach to me about the history of our country - I am well aware of Kashmir's Hindu history, which lasted well into the 14th century. In fact, it was in a Hindu-dominated Kashmir that we see poetry and art such as the Rajatarangini were produced. (shock /horror: I actually KNOW about Kalhana. How unusual for a purported commie)

Now, please do not distract from the question I asked - how do you ask for a cultural majority to have a nation in Israel but not Kashmir?

I'm still waiting for an answer....

Rohan to Anamika:

""No wonder your commie friends at JNU who'eve hijacked education""

Anybody who has been around on DC for a while can only splutter, laugh and gag.

But hey, currently Rohan is operating with a very limited vocabulary, limited to variations of "commie" and "leftie". Let's give him some time to bloom. And to provide Ruvy the oxygen he so needs, and vice versa.

TBS: I'm intrigued by your comment to Rohan to end!!

""By the way - if you want to think of CS in any form of tight clothing, feel free to do so.""

Perhaps I missed some of the deleted comments, but is Rohan in the business of wearing tight clothing, perhaps lingerie, with high heels to match? Is he planning to force me to wear the same.

As for Ruvy, I see another part of the predictable pattern. Slowly, but surely he is edging towards yet another pointless discussion of divine texts, prophesies, the Torah, and yes eventually the Quran too, to prove his point. When he comes to quotes from Quran, I'm sort of certain that Rohan will do a double-take. But that's only if he has expanded his vocabulary a bit beyond "commie" and "leftist". Though, I have not a clue what he has against commedians who happen to be left-handed too. Perhaps he can expand a bit?

On second thoughts, I've enough of his contradictory, vocabulary impaired not-even-drivel. Need to clear my so-called brains.

BS,
i'm glad if i do a grave disservice to commies! I donot wish to be enslaved by them. If you wish to talk about Kashmir and Israel donot pursue history ONLY to an Era that suits your relative position. You can just as easily go furthur back than 60 years. Oh and what was edited is me talking about the communists great friend Freud and the commies like you evaluating all things is sexual terms even implying Queer behaviour over the CS tights remark but editing out the retorts as "irrelevant". So, i'll not wipe my rearend with commies repeatedly for i donot have an anal fixation! Lets see if your commie moderators can take some criticism and not edit this out. Whats ironic is you all project yourselves as the Gurdians of free speech in a Democracy.

CS, i only picture you in Green Tights and pointy shoes being the unofficial Court Jester that you are here. My limited vocabulary does not take anything away from the simple truth. I've nothing against left-handed people, they are the only people in their right mind and i'm one of them. My problem is with political leftists with their heads up their own rear ends!

Rohan:

""So, i'll not wipe my rearend with commies repeatedly ""

I suspect wiping your rearend with comedians ought to do it. Even once, it might be ticklish, so I understand why you'd not want to wipe it repeatedly. Especially so when that comedian happens to be a leftie ie. left-handed.


Rohan:

""My problem is with political leftists with their heads up their own rear ends!""

Not sure what to make of this. You have a problem when left-handed comedians have their heads up their own rear ends? Why? You'd rather they'd rearend you repeatedly? Maha-ticklish it would be though. As well, if they have their heads up theirs, you would not have to get into inane arguments with them, would you. Spare time for expanding your vocabulary. Are you left-handed or right-handed? Or does it depend on when you are eating or wiping your rear-end (admittedly not repeatedly) with a left-handed comedian who has his head up his, regrettably not your, rear-end?

Rohan:

""the simple truth. I've nothing against left-handed people, they are the only people in their right mind and i'm one of them.""

So your bile directed at imaginary lefties is purely a case of self-hatred then? Not an uncommon affliction. Marx was a self-hating Jew as was Freud. Try to get over it. DC is an equal opportunity, democratic and pluralist forum and trust me, nobody here has anything against left-handed people, even though you repeatedly put them down viciously as "lefties". If you are one of them, try to refrain from auto-chutiapa.

CS,
I'm glad you are again proving to be a worthy Court Jester,mate. You only prove time and again that all you commies and your moderator friends can get away with saying anything here, but are quick to Edit other people. But then it's the usual communist arrogance. Keep it up boy! I don't need to dig a hole for you, You do a pretty good job of shooting yourselves in the foot for all to see.

Rohan,

Glad you get humored and amused so easily. Makes my job as the official Court Jester so much easier.

However, I suspect you are laughing partly because you just finished wiping your rear end, as you said, with a left-handed comedian, albeit not repeatedly. Don't do it repeatedly if you want to avoid haemmorrrids (can you do the spellcheck for me)

Rohan,

A couple of key points here. I suggest you go and read up on your history of the Middle East. The Jews were not ousted out of Israel by the "Muslims", but by the Romans following the sack of Jerusalem in AD 70; that is the time that the great exodus takes place and the Jewish Diaspora are scattered around the world. Islam as a religion didn't exist back then, since Mohammed didn't appear till 632 AD. So let's go back beyond your magic 60 years and talk history.

As for your rant in #241, well, let's get some facts straight, shall we? The point made to you as a joke was in response to YOUR jibe at commonsense about him in green tights and pointy shoes, which you have to admit does sound a bit like a drag queen. If you've ever MET a drag queen, you'd appreciate the kind of strength it takes to dress up like a woman and walk down the street holding your head high, so in hindsight (no pun intended) it was probably a compliment of sorts to him for his valiantly choosing to continue the battle here. Due apologies - I retract my comments to you.

As far as interpreting ANYTHING in terms of sexuality goes, why not try reading Freud and understanding what he says before you start blatantly discrediting him and me.

Now - can you explain WHY you think I'm a commie? In the spirit of intellectual debate, I'm curious to learn what communist vibes I emit on this forum!

Rohan - I reiterate my question in #239: how do you ask for a cultural majority to have a nation in Israel but not Kashmir? And to be specific, I'm talking about a culture / race / religion that is in the majority TODAY.

CS,
There you go again speaking for others and yourself. You could hold up an endless conversation on your own for all eternity sitting by yourself since you always appoint yourself to speak for both sides. It's easy to put words into peoples mouths, makeup a strawman and then knock it down later, isn't it since logic sseems to elude you all. That is a a commie's favourite pasttime! You aren't doing anything new, that people haven't seen before.

BS,
What Islamic culture in Kashmir do you choose to represent? A culture of violence against anyone non-muslim. Another haven for terrorist training. If you choose to stand for minority rights the Hindus are a minority in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. Are you advocating the formation of another Islamic state where they live as Dhimmis and pay Jizya. Minority status is calculated at the state level and by your own admission the muslims are a majority. A place where they have no rights, where they will not be allocated a small piece of land for their pilgrimage shrine board. Self determination cannot be by plebiscite when thousands were forced to convert at the point of a gun, thousands of Hindus killed and raped. When the world wants to promote Human rights even in Islamic countries which are the worst offenders you advocate the setup of another islamic sharia state. If divisions have to be based on religion, let their be no Muslim in the rest of India when the two nation theory came into being based on religion. Then let us follow the theory to the core and all muslims move out to Pakistan. They were allocated land as a percentage of their total population at the time in the Indian subcontinent yet millions stayed back in India while Hindu the populations in Pakistan have been reduced to less than 2 % and the muslim population has grown by leaps and bounds in India.

TBS

Kashmir issue exists primrily because

- Psecularists like to make Kashmir a cornerstone of their counter argument against Hindu majority i.e, hindu majority has to be justifiably denied, otherwise kashimiri moslems can not be denied because moslems are majority there. SO majority rule can not be allowed in india. Kashmir is made into a limus test, a blackmail point to create psecularism a reining deity of India. Now same is extended by commie psec brigade to disband India from supporting Isreal's struggle to survive among jehadi wolves.

Kashmir does not fit the analogy with the Isreal, because

-moslems were not persecuted around the world
-molems have not been forced out of their homeland to live like refugees, as second-class citizens, as persecuted minorities receiving blame and guilt for all the ills found in the society they lived in
-Moslems have not been blamed for all ills of the world, may be terorrism facing the world yes.
-Genocides against moslems have not taken place
-Moslems have not been forced out of their native lands to live like minorities in other countries

On the contrary, moslems have forced out Hindus from Kashmir to create moslem majority in Kashmir. Indians identify with Isreal struggle, because India finds similar echo in its struggle against Jehadi Islam. Kashmir is an example of ethnic cleansing of culture and people that Jehadi Islam specializes in.

What would one call a person whose treasonous arguments matches those of communists? I think Rohan has nailed this Budhhu guy correctly.

Rohan:

""CS, i only picture you in Green Tights and pointy shoes being the unofficial Court Jester that you are here.""

I do not deny that I'm the official Court Jester at DC (Desi Court). However, if your accusations of alleged communists under each cyber-bed is to stick, please at least get your colors right. A "communist" Court Jester in "GREEN tights"? No prizes for guessing which colour you could have chosen to impart a semblance of plausibilty to to your rant. Please play with colours before dabbling in complicated topics such as whether the Romans who kicked out the Jews were Muslims or not (Hint: Try to search the wikipedia for the origins of Islam; then look up the history of the Roman empire. Put two and two together, while getting your rear-end wiped by left-handed comedians). Then you are free to come back to the Desi Court since it is a free and democratic forum).

Rohan:

""CS,
There you go again speaking for others and yourself. You could hold up an endless conversation on your own for all eternity sitting by yourself since you always appoint yourself to speak for both sides.""

It might have escaped your attention, if you ever had one, but this is exactly what Court Jesters do, even the allegedly "Communist" ones, but not in "Green" tights. "Better Green than Dead" simply does not rhyme. Thyme maybe. Rohan boy, you are way beyond confused. Treat yourself to some halva sohan before venturing forth again....

Methinks we have a replacement for long lost Gill here for verbal punching drills.

TBS asks:

""Rohan - I reiterate my question in #239: how do you ask for a cultural majority to have a nation in Israel but not Kashmir? And to be specific, I'm talking about a culture / race / religion that is in the majority TODAY.""

I do think that even for guys like Rohan, there should be a limit to the amount of public humiliation they can be subjected to. I'm not saying that we are at that point. We should give him perhaps another couple of days to answer this obviously logical question. Chances are he will resort to that "the muslims kicked out jews from what is now israel" routine. If he does so, he would have joined the Ruvy hall of shame. As it is, he is ducking the question that originates from his own so-called logical challenge that he threw out at you and Anamika. But then again, this is what ducks do, apart from quacking endlessly when they are way beyond their depth in treacherous water.

Kerty,

How's that Dosti Pub in Shauunberg (sp?) on the outskirts of Chicago doing? Is it open to Moslems who might demand some halaal beer?

CS and BS you show typical commie arrogance. You suggest i should read the "History" approved by the two of you who seem to think of yourselves as very scholarly. I believe in education not indocrination which you commies would like to use education for and have done so. Isn't that why your comrades like to white wash the slaughter of Hindus in the Islamic era of India? For any true understanding and peace between communities History need to be analysed from all perspectives not just the victors angle. You wish to promote the victim mentality amongst muslims so they continue to live in Denial of their own wrongdoing.

You all are not the keepers of the Human Conscience. No one seeks your approval if you refuse to see the light of day. It remains to be seen though whether you are using the Jehadists or the Jehadists are using you! Ineither case it will be a rude awakening for both parties.

Rohan:

""CS,
There you go again speaking for others and yourself.""

Rohan my friend, apologies for putting words in your mouth. Since you came across as a classic anal-retentive (hint: Freud), I wrongly assume you would prefer words in your mouth, as opposed to ticklish left-handed comedians in green tights up your rear end. I however may wrong and if this is indeed the case, I'd be happy to RECTIFY the situation to suit your desire. Your wish is my command. This is what allegedly communist Court Jesters in GREEN tight (asses) are for.

So i ask again,
What Islamic culture in Kashmir do you choose to represent? A culture of violence against anyone non-muslim. Another haven for terrorist training. If you choose to stand for minority rights the Hindus are a minority in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. Are you advocating the formation of another Islamic state where they live as Dhimmis and pay Jizya.

As the Rohan-appointed "communist" Court Jester of the Desi Court in GREEN (not RED, Rohan!) it is my bounden duty to provide a tongue-in cheek (no, not Rohan's rear end) summary of the discussion on this segment of loony tunes. If IU have inadvertently forgotten to insult somebody and that somebody feels (metaphorically, not physically) left out, please do not hesitate to bring it my attention. So, here goes:

Rohan:

""Well, Anamika why shouldn't i go back 800 years?Why do you stop at 60? Is that some holy Marxist figure? Why don't you go back even furthur in Israel when Jews were ousted by the muslims.""

TBS:

""I suggest you go and read up on your history of the Middle East. The Jews were not ousted out of Israel by the "Muslims", but by the Romans following the sack of Jerusalem in AD 70; that is the time that the great exodus takes place and the Jewish Diaspora are scattered around the world. Islam as a religion didn't exist back then, since Mohammed didn't appear till 632 AD. So let's go back beyond your magic 60 years and talk history.""

Rohan:

"Every culture has a right to have a land where they are in a Majority."


TBS:
""Rohan - I reiterate my question in #239: how do you ask for a cultural majority to have a nation in Israel but not Kashmir? And to be specific, I'm talking about a culture / race / religion that is in the majority TODAY.""

Freud serves the left well CS so it's you who is the Anal retentive exploring all ways to promote your slave morality. You despise the achievements of capitalists and would like to make everyone equally poor. Those are true signs of a frustrated, jealous, anal person, one who does not accept his individuality but would like to bring everyone else down to his own level.

Oops! This Court Jester in Green Tights owes everyone an apology. The origins of this round of looney tunes are:

Anamika to Rohan:
"Btw, if you would like to talk of a pre-Islamic Kashmir, and use that as the basis for your argument, then why not use the SAME standard for Palestine. Prior to 1948 and the naqba (the catastrophe of forced removal of Palestinians), that land had been populated by Palestinians. So if you want to go back 800 years for Kashmir, give me ONE reason why we shouldn't go back 60 years for Palestine?""

Rohan: (his head in the clouds, and his rear-end tickled pink by lefthanded comedians)

""Well, Anamika why shouldn't i go back 800 years?Why do you stop at 60? Is that some holy Marxist figure? Why don't you go back even furthur in Israel when Jews were ousted by the muslims."

TBS:

TBS:
""I suggest you go and read up on your history of the Middle East. The Jews were not ousted out of Israel by the "Muslims", but by the Romans following the sack of Jerusalem in AD 70"

Kerty:
(Some irrelevant background noise)

[conjectural]

CS:
"Rohan: (his head in the clouds, and his rear-end tickled pink by lefthanded comedians)
Kerty:
(Some irrelevant background noise)
While Ruvy shops for new pants...."

Tooting your own horn when logic eludes you is a classic case of Anal rententive behaviour CS. Get well soon boy!

You are not gonna get any pity replies for your attention seeking behaviour from me anymore CS. [ED]Anyways you are quite capable to hold long conversations with yourself without the need for anothers opinion, speaking for both sides as you do.

gentleman:

(rohan and cs in particular)

no name calling

(time to re read the comment policy)

just a reminder:)

Rohan: "Why don't you go back even furthur in Israel when Jews were ousted by the muslims."

I got this far and lost interest. Rohan, read up on your history before you decide to argue things out; or rather if you plan to engage on the basis of anything more than prejudice and ignorance, both of which you have displayed in abundance. Otherwise you simply humiliate yourself rather publicly and its not a pleasant sight.

Meanwhile, I do wonder where you came up with the idea that I qualify as a "communist." Or is that a generic "insult" you have conjured up in that aforementioned state of prejudice and ignorance. However, I shall leave others on this forum who are more familiar with my politics to laugh themselves sick!

Rohan:

""You are not gonna get any pity replies for your attention seeking behaviour""

That's a pity. I might yet survive....

Anamika to Rohan:

""Meanwhile, I do wonder where you came up with the idea that I qualify as a "communist." Or is that a generic "insult" you have conjured up in that aforementioned state of prejudice and ignorance.""

Yes Anamika! Rohan reads, mechanically, from the standard issue that is chockful of words such as "dhimmi" etc. etc. and such fantastic historical narratives such as "the Muslims expelling the Jews from Palestine" that will embarrass even my dearest friend Ruvy to no end.

Anamika to Rohan:
"Btw, if you would like to talk of a pre-Islamic Kashmir, and use that as the basis for your argument, then why not use the SAME standard for Palestine. Prior to 1948 and the naqba (the catastrophe of forced removal of Palestinians), that land had been populated by Palestinians. So if you want to go back 800 years for Kashmir, give me ONE reason why we shouldn't go back 60 years for Palestine?"

Because the Palestinians aren't the original inhabitants of the lands - the Hebrews are. Why merely go back 60 years? Go back 2000 years.

(Waiting for the usual censorship harassment from the so-called "moderators")

why moo lagnaa with this guy? leaving him to his own devices would be the best.

Can someone please provide me with a logical, well reasoned set of comments to respond to? I am struggling to separate the wheat from the chaff in the many posts above, so would much appreciate a filter. All I see right now is a lot of verbiage, with very little substance.

As an aside, is it just me who finds all this activity on a Friday night somewhat tragic? Go out and have some fun folks; life is too short to spend Friday nights picking fights on online fora..

Damn, is the weekend already? Time to blame DC for yet again ruining it for me (As if I had anything better to do with my time ;)

shavua tov have a good week,

I see "commonsense" has met his match in having to deal with a "fan club" of his own. It is a joy to see that there is some small measure of justice in the universe, and what goes around indeed comes around, visiting "commonsense" in spades.... I'll leave the gentleman to enjoy his own little "fan club" and all the pleasures it brings, much as I was caused to enjoy a "fan club" of my own here for the last few months.

Rohan,

I apologize for not being able to help you in arguing out Kashmir/Jammu and all of the difficulties it causes Indians. It is not for lack of sympathy; it is out of pure ignorance.

Others here display their woeful ignorance of such things as the Temple Mount and other Jewish holy sites here in Israel. These people are not in and of themselves ignorant or stupid - rather, they have no tie to the things they talk of, so they are unable to argue about them from the heart.

I could read about Kashmir/Jammu, for all the good it will do me. I can hold opinions, if I desire to; but in the final analysis, I have no real tie to the place, and cannot argue from the heart, as I can when speaking of my own country.

In my own eyes, the splitting up of what had been known as British India into "Pakistan" and "India" was a tragedy that ought not have occurred. In my eyes, it has caused more suffering than progress, more losses than benefits, as two nations face each other with full sized armies and nuclear armaments. But here, I speak only as an ignorant foreigner, recording his own impressions as he meets Indians and Pakistanis and sees that the ties that bind them are far stronger than the differences that separate them.

TBS:

""As an aside, is it just me who finds all this activity on a Friday night somewhat tragic?""

Not at all TBS!! People are upto whatever they see fit for a Friday night. For example:

Rohan: Is busy reading up his history, while muching on some halva sohan.

Ruvy: [conjectural]

Sanjay: [conjectural]

Anamika, TBS and CS: quite busy not gloating, since there is nothing to gloat about when all too human follies are on cyber-display.

Others: having a wild weekend.

Editors: busy editing, but a bit overwhelmed.

[verbalD flushed by smiling editor]

Rohan, Ruvy and Sanjay busy because they do have a life apart from this silly site.
CS, BS and Anamika busy counting money from Saudi sponsors for pimping their pen.
Editors, also counting their share of the loot and crushing all dissent on this website.
Go ahead edit this too.

#275: Thanks for the laugh. As of 23:34 (Greenwich Time) on August 3, 2008, DC carries the following stats:

Most prolific Commenters for last 7 days

* » commonsense (115)
* » Rohan (41)
* » Ruvy (36)
* » smallsquirrel (27)
* » Deepti Lamba (24)
* » Aaman (19)
* » Anamika (19)
* » Chandra (16)
* » Ledzius (16)
* » Chaitanya S (13)

We all know CS uses DC to not work, play, have that draught. But ahem, the ones with "a life apart from this site" did take me by surprise. :-)

Rohan:

1. After just a day of mandated vocabulary lessons, you show considerable improvment. However, remember that adage "use it or lose it" does not apply only to male sexuality. Please continue using the newly acquired words in as diverse a setting as possible.

2. Difficult as it might be, (re:Anamika's post above), try as much as possible, to ensure that when you triumphantly claim something, the evidence must not make you eat tandoori crow.

3. How is that history lesson coming along? Since you have accused us all of being communists, I suspect you would not be too surprised if we force you into compulsory history re-education camp, would you?

Leftists clearly don't deserve the freedom of speech that they seek to deprive others of. People should boycott this site, as it doesn't respect freedom of speech, and seeks to selectively favour certain viewpoints under the guise of open debate and critical thinking (aka "DesiCRITICS")

People who use the word leftist shouldn't be offended if they get called fascist. Both are equally accurate, which is to say not accurate at all.

But people who throw either of those words around are usually too useless to talk to, to reason with, to have a meaningful conversation with. Both talk to each other and therefore fall under the misapprehension they are saying something useful to anyone else. Because they don't, they are so very easy to completely ignore.

Temple Stark,

Totally agree. BTW I was not even aware of the fact that I was ignoring Sanjay and his stock phrase "leftist". Since he thinks DC should be boycotted, not clear what he is doing here....but then again...

Temple,

Apparently others, like Temporal and Anamika, have been intimating, if not saying straight out, that I am a fascist (as if either of them even knows what a fascist is - the ignorqance that both of them display is woeful!) or a nazi.

This without the accusation of "leftist" coming from me....

In other words, according to you, they too, should be ignored - an admirable sentiment....

Ruvy

Ruvy:

""(as if either of them even knows what a fascist is)""

now is the time for you to display the fact that you know at least one word of greek - "ohee". go ahead, impress yourself! eleneki catalavez?

TS

Actually, leftists have more in common with fascists, both in terms of tactics and strategies to achieve their goals.

"leftist" is a commonly used political reference and it is often not associated with any negative connotations, though because of its association with bad elements/ideologies in politics of recent decades, it has acquired negative connotations.

In politics, labels are often coined(mostly by leftists) to confuse rather than educate. Do you think communism has anything to do with 'commune', or Samajwad has anything to do with 'samaj' and what has communalism has anything to do with religion? And and about secularism, less said is better. And label 'Fascism' is no exception. I bet 99.9% Indians would not even know what Fascism means, and that includes educated Indians that understands politics.

Cs, Try writing ókhi correctly.

[Edited - Brush up on the Comment Policy]

Ruvy:

""Cs, Try writing ókhi correctly.""

Tried, but couldn't. Would "ohi", "ohee" do? Glad you took up the chance for another self-advert.

Ruvy:

Tokseros Ruvy. Ehfarishto. malaka? Endaxi philo Ruvy. Pedia to podiki to zuzuniya.

I will be happy to learn how to spell greek from you. But you might me interested in this bit about the urban legend you are intent on propagating about the significance of "ohi" or "ohee" (alternative spellings to "okhi" and closer to how the world is actually pronounced in Greek)

""Okhi Day (also spelled Ohi Day, Oxi Day, or Ochi Day, Greek: Επέτειος του «'Οχι», Anniversary of the "No") commemorates Greek dictator Ioannis Metaxas....Most scholars dismiss the use of the word 'Okhi' as an urban legend, claiming that the actual reply was the French phrase "Alors, c'est la guerre" ("Then it is war").""

Thus, another urban legend, predictably enough, is the basis for your fantasies and write-up.




Are you now in the business of teaching Greek? No, it's not all Greek to me, so you might be in for another round of letting your pants down. Tokseros Ruvy? Podiki to zuzuniya

edited

Ruvy:

""Cs, Try writing ókhi correctly.""

""The Greek word for no is όχι ['o̞.çi], where ό is stressed and pronounced 'oh'; χ is pronounced similar to the 'h' in 'hi' -- ι is pronounced like the 'e' in 'he'."" (wikipedia, entry on "okhi day)

Ruvy:

Ruvy:

""Cs, Try writing ókhi correctly.""

And one more. And this from the Greek Embassy in the USA who of course are presumably ignoramuses re: their own language. So, in addition to English, will you now teach us how to write Greek correctly with english letters too?

As I said to Rohan: when triumphantly trying to expose somebody, do cover the ass well, especially since the pants are down anyways. Self-righteous triumphalism has a nasty habit of rebounding on both of you.

(Secret CS formula: hit him so hard, not once but at least thrice, even though the dheet (cocky) guy will always reappear as if nothing happened, and always with twice the amount of self-righteousness)

"'Ohi Day' messages valuable today, leaders say
27 October, 1997""

http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=260&article=2010

Ruvy:

Ruvy:

""Cs, Try writing ókhi correctly.""

Yet another one from this native with a barbaric mentality:

http://aei.pitt.edu/7047/

[Edited]

Ruvy:

""Cs, Try writing ókhi correctly.""

A final word of advice Ruvy. When transcribing another langugage into English, there is no such thing as the correct spelling. Even though, commonsensical it is that "ohi" cannot be spelled as "commonsense"...."ohi", "ohee", "ohi" and yes, even "okhi" are just fine. Just as "nay", "nae", "ney" etc. will do for the Greek word for yes, but "Ruvy" will not do.

Rohan:

"Why don't you go back even furthur in Israel when Jews were ousted by the muslims."

Rohan, I for one, am still pretty curious about this episode that you talk about. Recorded (and unrecorded as well) history has no record or even a hint of this episode that you mention. Any hints as to where one can learn about this non-event??

[Edited]

[Edited]

[Deleted - read comment policy]

[baiting edited]

If someone attacks you, bring it to the notice of the moderators. Refrain from personal attacks or risk being edited out

Okay editor: try comments#273, #290 and #287 - all baiting comments that require editing (or deletion) by a comments editor/moderator. Those are just for starters. If you edit those three, I'll know you mean what you say.

[273 and 290 - conjectures removed. 287 is ok. Now UNDERSTAND this: NO PERSONAL ATTACK and NO BAITING from now on. If anyone notices a personal attack (now on) bring it to the editor's attention.]

The irony of being called a leftist / fascist was had enough, but I'm my cute little ars* off since I've only just returned from Milan, the city that Mussolini's party was originally established in back in 1919. Even funnier was the fact that my hotel was just down the road from the Stazione Centrale, that monstrosity of a construction built by the Fascists as a simple of Italian gloy (apparently the Colosseum wasn't enough).

Still waiting for a return to the conversation and debate - how did we end up in Greek 101?

As for the personal attacks, well, den katalavono!

Okay - reposting that last comment since its gobbled up a few words!

"The irony of being called a leftist / fascist was BAD (not "had") enough, but I'm LAUGHING my cute little ars* off since I've only just returned from Milan, the city that Mussolini's party was originally established in back in 1919. Even funnier was the fact that my hotel was just down the road from the Stazione Centrale, that monstrosity of a construction built by the Fascists as a simple of Italian gloy (apparently the Colosseum wasn't enough).

Still waiting for a return to the conversation and debate - how did we end up in Greek 101?

As for the personal attacks, well, den katalavono!

Okay - reposting that last comment since its gobbled up a few words!

"The irony of being called a leftist / fascist was BAD (not "had") enough, but I'm LAUGHING my cute little ars* off since I've only just returned from Milan, the city that Mussolini's party was originally established in back in 1919. Even funnier was the fact that my hotel was just down the road from the Stazione Centrale, that monstrosity of a construction built by the Fascists as a symbol of Italian glory (apparently the Colosseum wasn't enough).

Still waiting for a return to the conversation and debate - how did we end up in Greek 101?

As for the personal attacks, well, den katalavono!

TBS;

Those remarks of yours must have sounded so good in your ears that you re-posted them twice - or have you been having the same trouble with the MT that I have?

If you want irony, TBS, kadíma ("advance!" "forward!" in Hebrew) is the precise translation of Mussolini's name for his political party in 1921-22 - Avanti! I leave you to draw the obvious conclusions about the crooks and incompetents within this political "party".

Actually, now that I think of it, to call Sharon, Olmert, Livni and co-conspirators "fascists" would insult the memory of i fascisti - who, misguided as they were, at least did what they did out of love of country, instead of a check from some American flunky.

Don't worry Ruvy - even though I know that each word that emits from my mouth is a well-formed pearl, the only reason that comment was reposted was thanks to the idiosyncracies of the comment MT.

The issue with the names that political parties adopt, Ruvy, is that its easy to extrapolate and try to form linkages, but each political grouping is formed with respect to its own unique circumstances. So while Kadima indeed may share the same literal meaning with Mussolini's party, by that logic, there are probably thousands of parties around the world that either have the word "national" or "socialist" in their names; but that does not equate to the fact that they are Nazi in ideology (the term "Nazi" was the abbreviation of the German name of the party Hitler established, which had that wonderfully Teutonic name of "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeitpartei", which in English means "National Socialist German Workers' Party")

So not completely buying into that line of reasoning....

Ruvy:

""#287 - all baiting comments that require editing (or deletion) by a comments editor/moderator.""

Not true at all. Comment #287 is a "please do set your own house in order first" type of response to Ruvy's earlier, cocksure comment #284, which indeed was baiting of sorts AND directly addressed to me(appended below):

Ruvy: "Cs, Try writing ókhi correctly."

TBS:

""how did we end up in Greek 101?""

Well my friend Ruvy was kind enough to offer some lessons to me on Greek orthography. And brave enough, since he had no idea that not all greek is totally greek to me. Oh well. Thanks Ruvy for the effort.