Book Review: The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy, by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt

Good review, but after reading this book, I thought that the authors had made a convincing case. I guess this is very subjective. You were not convinced. I was.

Vinod J:

""I think the Iraq invasion was the result of Dubya's and Tony's desire to remake the map of the middle-east. Look at it from George's and Tony's point of view. Both are extremely religious men who believe that God has sent them to earth for a reason. They want to bring peace and democracy to the middle-east. How do they go about it? They need to start somewhere. Where should they start? With Saudi Arabia? No. The people there are hardcore Wahhabis who will not easily accept democracy. Also, the rulers of Saudi Arabia are good friends of America. Iraq on the other hand was ripe for democracy. Its population is relatively secular. Its ruler was an enemy of the West...So they got a few intelligence reports 'sexed' up, whipped up public opinion and started the war.""

Say What? George and Tony are Holy Map-Makers and lovers of genuine democracy????

""They [George and Tony] want to bring peace and democracy to the middle-east.""

Really?? is about all i can muster. Yes, I know that's not an argument...yet, "really??""

Five years ago, Atlantic Monthly commissioned two academics, John Mearsheimer of Chicago University and Stephen Walt of Harvard, to write a significant article about the influence of the Israeli lobby on American foreign policy. When the piece was at last completed, the magazine declined to publish, deeming it too hot for delicate American palates. It eventually appeared in 2005, in the London Review of Books, provoking one of the most bitter media and academic rows of recent times. The authors were accused of antisemitism, and attacked with stunning venom by some prominent US commentators. Mearsheimer and Walt obviously like a fight, however, for they have now expanded their thesis into a book.

Vinod,

To conclude, I would say that M & W have an interesting theory, but I was not fully convinced that the picture they formed by connecting various multi-coloured dots is not a red herring.

What a polite way of calling bullshit!

You did a very nice job of examining the red herring produced by these over-funded academics. Unfortunately, too many fools have swallowed this red herring along with the sauce and have pronounced it "very good".

Lets look at the two penultimate paragraphs of your fine article.

M & W also say that the Israel lobby has forced the US to be confrontational towards Syria and seek a regime change in Syria even though the Syrian government had provided important intelligence about al-Qaida after 9/11. According to M & W, if it were not for the Israel lobby, the US would not be so antagonistic towards Syria; there would be no Syria Accountability Act; there might be a peace treaty between Israel and Syria; Syria might not be backing the Hezbollah in Lebanon. Here I ask - can't there be an different explanation for this? Ever since the demise of the Soviet Union, the US has been in earch of new enemies. The arms lobby needs the US to have enemies in order to justify weapons sales to the US armed forces. Couldn't this lobby have played a role in demonising Syria?

Which brings me to another point. There are various lobbies - the arms lobby, the oil lobby, and other special interests - who would be interested in skewing US policy on the middle-east. Maybe these lobbies have played as big a role as the Israel lobby in getting US foreign policy towards Israel to the point it is now.

The fact of the matter is that the Olmert "regime" (one hesitates to call this pack of idiots a government) has attempted a number of times to approach the Assad regime with peace/surrender proposals of various kinds and heretofore it has been the United State government that has put the kibosh on them.

I've seen this in the Hebrew press at least five different times. This, in spite of the fact that the HizbAllah rocket bombardment of this country was co-ordinated from Syria - which was barely attacked at all in the last "Lebanon" War.

Let's note further that the recent failed summit in Paris under the sponsorship of Nicolas Sarkozy, the one that was supposed to bring Olmert and Assad, was done in defiance of American policy, rather than in furtherance of it.

Parenthetically, you mention the "demnise of the Soviet Union". I would ask you to note that while the USSR does not exist any more, the Russian Federation most assuredly does, stretching over 10 time zones from the White Russian border to Alaska. And since the accession of Vladimir Putin as dictator in his various guises, he has been very busy resurrecting the Russian Empire and re-expanding its zone of influence. That zone of influence includes Iran, and by extension, Syria, Lebanon, HizbAllah and Hamas. In addition, both HizbAllah and Hamas have been busily propagandizing Russian speakers living in Israel in Russian. An article about this "Russian resurrection" will be up-coming soon, G-d willing, at Blogcritics Magazine. But I digress....

The oil and banking establishment in America - which supports the Arabs - has been driving American foreign policy for the last 75 years. Anyone who does even the most minimal and careless examination of who sits on what corporate boards (or boards of governors) will see that the American arms industry is tied closely with the oil and banking lobby in the United States. Their most vocal representative in the State Department was George Marshall, who was against the establishment of a sovereign Jewish entity here as an "historic error" and was so much against this that when instructed by President Truman to instruct the American ambassador to vote in favor of partitioning the British Mandate here in 1947, he quit in a huff. The American president had to instruct the American UN ambassador himself.

Mearsman and Walt would have Americans and others forget basic facts of history so that they might blame Jews in America (and in Israel) for the deaths of American soldiers in Iraq and for the economic problems consequent to the tremendous amount of money wasted in the swamps of the Tigris and Euphrates. Frankly, I don't care if that happens - it doesn't harm me here in the mountains of Samaria (yes Vinod, I live in Israel). My attitude is to shoot first and ask questions later, and when I'm on duty guarding the village I live in, that philosophy is the governing one.

But many American Jews who do their best to run away from the stigmata of being Jewish face a real danger if Americans are stupid enough to believe Mearsman and Walt and similar propagandists. They will be attacked in anti-Jewish pogroms if America's economy starts to fall apart. There is loads of Jew-hatred on the web in the States, and in essence, the web is just a projection of feelings that are widely held, but whose holders are too lazy or apathetic to act on. Eventually, though, the anger will overcome the apathy and laziness and and the American media will either be covering up pogroms or blowing them up to get viewers and readers.

Commonsense, yes, Really! I REALLY believe the Iraq invasion was not about oil or money. If it was just oil, the US could have made a deal with Saddam for its supply. Bush and Blair made a huge error of judgement. However, I believe their intention was primarily good, that they wanted to bring democracy to the middle-east, starting with Iraq. Both of them thought that Iraq would be an easy nut to crack. Imagine the plaudits they would have got if they could do in Iraq what US forces did in Japan or Germany after World War II.

Ruvy, I'm glad you liked my review.

# 6

bbbutt, bbbuttt is about all i can muster! unusual for somebody like me terminally afflicted with verbal diarrhoea....but i will let this pass..."fools rush in...."

some relevant links:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

here is video of a live debate with the authors...(in many segments)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crbbNCvngOs

Vinod:

""If it was just oil, the US could have made a deal with Saddam for its supply.""

That's one way of looking at it. Another perspective on the same issue is that there is a world of a difference between having access to a "supply" of oil that others with the same buying power can have AND between trying to have total control over the world's second largest supply of oil, particularly in view of a rising China with its energy requirements and with its rising purchasing power AND the decline of the US dollar and economy. Just a thought!!

Spreading democracy by true believers, just for the love of it???!!! Great thought, if self-delusion is the ultimate goal.


David Harvey _The New Imperialism_ (Oxford University Press)

Vinod,

Having expressed my positive views of what you write generally, I wish to call your attention to why I think the American regime is really in Iraq, as opposed to the baloney it hands out.

1. The threat of weapons of mass destruction being made in Iraq was real. But Saddam Hussein, realizing that he was in real trouble with George Bush and the men who manipulate him, shipped these weapons overland in trucks to Syria - which stored them in the Bika'a in Lebanon. The Israeli government was pretty much ordered to follow a losing strategy in Lebanon, and never attacked the Bika'a. So, it should be no wonder that they were never found in Iraq....

Can you guess who they are aimed at now?

2. The Saudis are business partners of the Bush's. More precisely, George Bush Sr. is a consultant for the Saudi monarchy that his own father helped bring to power in Arabia. In fact, the Bush's and the bin-Ladens know each other. It was a pack of Wahhabi thugs who attacked the World Trade Center in 2001, but going to war with the Saudis would be the equivalent of pissing on the bosses shoes. So, someone else had to be the target of the righteous anger in the States. Voila ici - there was this nasty thug in Iraq (that the United States had backed in the eighties and then double-crossed in 1990) and he was the perfect target. It gave the Americans the excuse to be permanently in the Middle East, and a real target to demonize. I'm not defending the bum - he deserved to hang at the hands of an Iraqi court. But the Iraqi people got the shaft for a dozen years (1991-2003) and now the situation there is one of war, with some parts of the country prosperous, and some parts reduced to utter desolation.

AIPAC? AIPAC is just a bunch of American Jewish blowhards who figure that they can do some "good" with a big fat checkbook and lots of trips to Israel. When they first read the Mearsman and Walt "report" they were probably saying to themselves "alevái" (it should only be so).

cs:

However, I believe their intention was primarily good, that they wanted to bring democracy to the middle-east, starting with Iraq. Both of them thought that Iraq would be an easy nut to crack.

what does this say?

Temporal,

What does this say? Somebody's been imbibing too much Kool-Aid or perhaps Mike's Hard Lemonade.

As for a "hard nut to crack"...hmm, there are nuts and then there are nuts. In India, the synonym for a nut is "crack" as in "abey woh bilkul crack hai"....

If Vinod's beliefs are to be believed, apparently some holy map-makers were misled by their God, and their "primarily good intentions" or perhaps "bad intelligence" (an oxymoron right there), so at the end of the day, nobody is at fault, give or a take a few hundred thousand dead, maimed, uprooted. However, democracy in the middle-east just around the corner...or is it?

I "loved" the debates very early on when this tragedy began unfolding. The topic for today is "Can Democracy be Forced Upon a Society". And talking heads, for and against the motion, pondered the issue with passion, reinforcing the delusion that indeed the spread of democracy was the reason behind the nightmare. A media induced Kool Aid for sure. Your very own Michael Ignatieff waxing eloquent along the same lines until he decided to have the predictable "second thoughts". However, what still irks me is Christopher Hitchens' about face...what a waste of "good intelligence" as opposed to the "bad or the sexed up...".

Vinod:

""Imagine the plaudits they would have got if they could do in Iraq what US forces did in Japan or Germany after World War II.""

Just Imagine!! Plaudits for the "punditry". Just like the expected flowers and the sweets that mysteriously did not materialize.

As for the vacuous comparisons between Japan/Germany, there is a well established discipline called history whose practitioners continually warn against comparisons that are wrenched out of their "TEMPORAL" (!!) and social contexts, and presented as ahistorical models. But I am as usual, getting ahead of myself....

Vinod:

""Imagine the plaudits they would have got if they could do in Iraq what US forces did in Japan or Germany after World War II.""

Just Imagine!! Plaudits for the "punditry". Just like the expected flowers and the sweets that mysteriously did not materialize.

As for the vacuous comparisons between Japan/Germany and the nightmare that is now Iraq, there is a well established discipline called history whose practitioners continually warn against comparisons that are wrenched out of their "TEMPORAL" (!!) and social contexts, and presented as ahistorical models. But I am as usual, getting ahead of myself....

[EDITED - IRRELEVANT]

Perhaps, Vinod, you would like to see a AIPAC through a slightly different lens - the lens that shows them for the gullible fools they truly are.... Try my analysis at Blogcritics Magazine on for size....

[IRRELEVANT - BAITING]

editors, guilty as charged!

I admit I have not read the book nor the article. My overall impression of the US foreign policy is very much in line M & W as discussed in this article. Many a times US vetoes of the UN resolutions made absolutely no sense unless you see them in the context of the lobby. US could not speeak against blatant injutice that Israel practiced particularly with respect to illegal settlements. You may disagree with M & W on minor points here and there but I think overall they are not far from truth. I disagee with Joseph. It is no red herring.

Morris, I not only disagree with M&W on not-so-minor points here and there, I also disagree with their overall conclusion - that the Israeli lobby is the prime reason for most US actions in the middle-east.

Commonsense, M&W state categorically that the Iraq War was not for oil. According to them, the US invaded Iraq in order to keep Israel safe.

Morris,

You admit to not having read Mearsman and Walt (an understandable lapse) and not having read Vinod's article (really, it isn't that long!).

If you read most of the newspapers in India, or follow its media (I'm guessing that you live in India) you'll find it hard not to agree with Mearsman and Walt. Indeed, if you follow CNN, the BBC, AP. CBC, Reuters, Agence France Press and Ha'aretz here in Israel, you'll find it hard not to agree with Mearsman and Walt. All of these press outlets express the views of the American oil and banking establishment and its many puppets world wide. News has become much like a Big Mac - identical garbage served up round the world with the same taste, made from the same ingredients. You can get the same Big Mac in Moscow as you can in St. Petersburg or Delhi or Sao Paulo, or even, if you'll pardon the expression, St. Paul, Minnesota.

And the American oil and banking establishment is serving up Mearsman and Walt as its Big Mac on "the Jewish Lobby".

So, Morris, would you like cheese on that Big Mac? Fries? A Coke? Would you like to Supersize that order for just 30 rupees more?

Folks, let's take a brief look at what Israel would look like if the "Jewish Lobby" indeed was the tail wagging the American dog. Let us see what be reality if Mearsheimer and Walt were indeed right.

First of all, there would be a huge American base in Haifa (with all the attendant problems of prostitution and rape that come with American bases). School kids would come daily to see the base of the American Mediterranean Fleet. American influence would be endemic here. There would be another huge American base near Dimona, so the Americans could keep firm control of the Israel nuclear missile capability. The shekel would have been long abandoned for the dollar, with local coins minted in dollars and cents, just as they are in Liberia or Panamá. It is likely that a good part of the electric grid here would work on 110 volts, just like the American system, to accommodate the huge number of American bureaucrats who would be located here.

The American Embassy would be in Jerusalem, rather than in Tel Aviv, and it would be located less than a stone's throw from the prime minister's office, so that the American Ambassador, who would be the equivalent of the British High Commissioner in pre-WWII Cairo, Delhi or Baghdad, would be able to transmit the orders daily from Washington (the administration) or New York (AIPAC).

The American Internal Revenue Service, the equivalent of the UK's Inland Revenue or Révénue Canada, would have large offices in either TA or J-lem. Israel Broadcasting would have at least five or six hours in English broadcasting daily to communicate with the Christian evangelicals as well as American Jews. The American Cultural Center (run by the State Department), presently a modest library south of downtown J-lem, would be a huge complex housing, among other things, AMEX, DHL, Fed-Ex, and office of the US Postal Service and very likely AP, CNN, Fox, CBS, NBC, and ABC Jerusalem offices. Not far away, to accommodate the huge numbers of Americans in J-lem, would be Target Jerusalem, and perhaps even a branch of A&S or Macy's.

Burger King, where I used to manage in St. Paul, would have a bunch of restaurants packed to the gills with Americans complaining that they couldn't get bacon-double cheeseburgers - and instead of typing this from Ma'ale Levona, I'd be likely managing the lunch rush in one of them, making sure that customers got the right order, hot, fresh and withing three minutes of having walked through the door.

Judea and Samaria, where I now live, would be packed with Jews, having long been annexed to the State, and Arabs would be encouraged to leave. Right now, as I type this, I hear the mosque for calling congregants for early afternoon prayers. This sound would likely not be heard here. Jews would live in the valley north of Ma'ale Levona, there would be no gate around the village, I would not be required to sit guard duty, and my sons could hike down the hill from the village north to Ariel, or ride their bikes along the shuttle road leading to Highway 60, and visit girlfriends in neighboring villages if they wanted to.

It is likely that South Lebanon would be under Israeli control, along with the eastern third of the Sinai (including el-Arish and Sharm es-Sheikh). American and Israeli troops would be patrolling the Jordanian border with Arabia Syria and Iraq, and Americans and Israelis would see to it that the oil flowed uninterrupted from Mosul to Haifa - likely from an independent Kurdistan.

Life would much better here (for my wife and me anyway). My kid just called me asking the next bus from Ariel to J-lem. If AIPAC was the tail wagging the American dog, he wouldn't have to - one would be leaving every 20 minutes or so.

Life is hard here, jobs are hard to find, and American officials are always yakking on and on like old yentas about the "rights of the poor Palestinians", the South Syrian Arabs who daily dream up new ways to kill us off. A couple of weeks ago, it was a front loader. Who knows what their fertile minds will come up with next!?

Terrorism? There wouldn't be any terrorism - that would be reserved for others, elsewhere....

None of these would be the case if Mearsheimer and Walt were right. But they are not, and it's a damned shame.

Ruvy, I don't agree with your comment (#22). If the Israel lobby were to control US policy on the middle-east, the US would have bombed Iran by now! Since the Americans know when to toe the Israeli line and when not to, I doubt if this will ever happen.

(On a slightly humorous and irreverent note, taking a leaf out of Common sense's book), if the Israel lobby were really, really strong, Shekels and Agora would have replaced Dollars and Cents. US restaurants would serve only Kosher food. Sabbath would be strictly observed throughout the US. Buses, trains and planes will come to a halt at 6 p.m. on Friday and stay put till 6 p.m. on Saturday. All American men will wear black hats and have ringlets etc. There will be a booming market for women's false hair. The Israeli embassy would be the biggest and tallest building in the United States.

Vinod:

""Commonsense, M&W state categorically that the Iraq War was not for oil. According to them, the US invaded Iraq in order to keep Israel safe."

True, but I uttered not a single evaluative word about the M&W argument. Just provided some links to a live debate they engaged in.

As for oil, the fact is that when almost every ministry and important building was raised to the ground, including the incredible museums, the oil ministry was the only one defended and left standing. I agree that there will never be a document (the smoking gun) stating clearly that "it's about the crude, dude". So I will have to leave it at that.

Vinod:

""Commonsense, M&W state categorically that the Iraq War was not for oil. According to them, the US invaded Iraq in order to keep Israel safe."

True, but I uttered not a single evaluative word about the M&W argument. Just provided some links to a live debate they engaged in. The Israeli lobby does play a role and there is no reason why this role should not be discussed publicly, by renowned scholars of international studies at U of Chicago and Harvard, without inviting the charge of anti-Semitism. On the other hand, it is hard to believe that the US, like any other country, will do anything unless it fits in with its overall interests. States have no permanent allies or friends, they only have interests. This is true not just for the US but for all countries, and certainly for powerful states that now face challenge from a number of contenders such as China (and to some extend the hype of India rising orchestrated mainly in the US to counter China).

As for oil, the fact is that when almost every ministry and important building was raised to the ground, including the incredible museums, the oil ministry was the only one defended and left standing. I agree that there will never be a document (the smoking gun) stating clearly that "it's about the crude, dude". Much of it can be ultimately traced to the energy issue adn the fact that China (and later perhaps India) already has rising energy demands. And China, together with Japan is one of the largest provider of loans to the US. China has been for sometime, looking for alternative energy/oil supplies in Africa, but at the end of the day, the main supply is in the Middle East, and in the coming years, control of that oil, not just the ability to buy it, will be the major prize. And that too is just a matter of a few more decades before it too fizzles out. So for the moment, crudely put, "it's the crude dude" or "tel ka khel". The American support initially, of the Taliban (believe it or not!) was precisely about building a pipeline from the Central Asian oil producing nations, thru Afghanistan. Their support of dicatators in Kazhakistan and others in the region is all about oil. Spreading democracy???!!?? Oh well!!

israel is the main cause of the middle east crisis. everything is done for its interests.

If the Israel lobby were to control US policy on the middle-east, the US would have bombed Iran by now!

I don't remember writing a single word about Iran in comment #22, Vinod. In fact I just read the whole comment over, and Iran was not mentioned at all. Where did you get this?

I did say this about the external borders of my country:

It is likely that South Lebanon would be under Israeli control, along with the eastern third of the Sinai (including el-Arish and Sharm es-Sheikh). American and Israeli troops would be patrolling the Jordanian border with Arabia, Syria and Iraq, and Americans and Israelis would see to it that the oil flowed uninterrupted from Mosul to Haifa - likely from an independent Kurdistan.

Not a peep about Iran. Maybe, you should go check a map again....

As for your attempts at parody, a student I went to college with (back when the dinosaurs roamed the planet) wrote something about the whole world converting to be Jews.

Oy vey!! Spare me! That's the last thing we need!

We have enough trouble with the fourteen millions of us there are now. Then we have to talk about the Pashtun waking up from the Taliban wine of madness they have been imbibing from Deoband for the last few decades and embracing Torah (they are descendants of the other Tribes of our people, supposedly "lost". They are not Jews, but they are Hebrews, sons of Israel). It'll be a wonderful thing when it happens - but the mechanics of it all may not seem so wonderful when it happens.

Someone else on this comment thread, wrote, "The American support initially, of the Taliban (believe it or not!) was precisely about building a pipeline from the Central Asian oil producing nations, thru Afghanistan. Their support of dicatators in Kazhakistan and others in the region is all about oil."

He is dead on the money. And Mearsheimer and Walt are trying to distract Americans and others from the reality of who really rules their country - the oil and banking establishment - the same one that views a Jewish entity in Eretz Yisrael as an historic error.

Ruvy

My apologies for not the lack of clarity. In comment #22, you do not refer to Iran. However, you list out various possibilities and eventualities if the 'Jewish' tail wags the US dog. My response was that, I do not agree with you. If the Israel lobby controlled US policy on the middle-east, none of the possibilities listed by you will come true. Instead, the US would have attacked Iran.

My tongue-in-cheek second paragraph was meant to be a joke. I did not intend to offend anyone.

Vinod,

I think I understand what you are talking about in your first paragraph. Truth is, I have a new editing assignment, and am awaiting the beginning of my shift, so I may not understand you fully. Nerves and all that, you know....

As for your parody, I realize it was a mere parody with no offensive intent, so no apology is necessary.

What is not a parody is that many of the Pashtun, who presently imbibe the wine of Taliban madness, wear the same ringlets, as you call them, as the super-observant Jews do. I try to keep the commandments, the Sabbath and kashrut, and believe it or not, I seek peace with our Arab neighbors instead of war.

I had always thought the ringlets the super-observant Jews wear were some invention of these folk needing to dress up like their Polish overlords or something. But then I saw photos from the beginning of the last (Christian) century from Yemen with Jewish kids wearing these ringlets - and then recently, photos of Pashtun in the mountains with these same ringlets!!

I can't stand those ringlets, and what are they? The sign of the universal Hebrew!! G-d indeed has a sense of humor.

Even the EU member countries if not all most of them diagree with the US about their policy with respect to Israel. What keeps the US so much out of mainstreat thinking? Is it their wisdom? What is their logic? Can you explain that Joseph? It is simple, the lobby my friend the lobby. As far as war with Iraq is concerned, it was stupidity of the present administration. But the foreign policy with respect to Israel has been consistent over the years. They are seeing some wisdom there that most of us fail to see unless you believe like some of us here who think that God gave jews the land that they are illegally grabbing from the palestenians. We cannot prove that the lobby is the reason. But then what else?

Trolle: "What is not a parody is that many of the Pashtun, who presently imbibe the wine of Taliban madness, wear the same ringlets, as you call them, as the super-observant Jews do...I had always thought the ringlets the super-observant Jews wear were some invention of these folk needing to dress up like their Polish overlords or something. But then I saw photos from the beginning of the last (Christian) century from Yemen with Jewish kids wearing these ringlets - and then recently, photos of Pashtun in the mountains with these same ringlets!!"

Ahem, read history perhaps? Its not god but a few millenia of travel, trade, marriage, conquests?

But then the same sort of mentality decided that despite the absence of all ethnographic and archeological evidence, a few bits of linguistic similarity were enough to come up with the "Aryan Invasion Theory" for India. Yep - faces change, even ethnic groups change, but the basic logic remains!


I can't stand those ringlets, and what are they? The sign of the universal Hebrew!! G-d indeed has a sense of humor.

currently me in lurkistan, reading and lurking, with interest

Troll:

""Someone else on this comment thread, wrote, "The American support initially, of the Taliban (believe it or not!) was precisely about building a pipeline from the Central Asian oil producing nations, thru Afghanistan. Their support of dicatators in Kazhakistan and others in the region is all about oil."

Ouch troll, don't twist surface similarities for your own twisted ends. I did say that the argument for the Israel lobby, by two distinguished scholarly analysts, not politicians, has to be taken seriously and not dismissed, predictably, as anti-Semitism. You are being patrolled, troll.

Vinod,

I have to apologize for the pathetic manners of two of the posters, posters who will not be named, as they have brought nothing but acrimony and contempt to this comment thread. I do this because they have not yet discovered the decency in their own souls to do it themselves. Suffice it to say that they whine a lot about "trolls" whilst behaving like trolls themselves.

As to your observations in comment #28, having been an American Zionist for a number of years myself (though never rich enough to hang with the money bags in AIPAC), I understand their dreams and desires from the gut. What I described to you in comment #22 was the American Zionist's wet dream, so to speak, the orgasmic fit of joy that would leave them limp and breathless on the ground, begging for more.

It is not my dream at all, but it most assuredly is theirs. One of the chief features of the American Jew, whether he/she admits it or not, is a deep rooted sense of insecurity. Some American Jews think that running away from the faith and their people will cure them of this; others join groups like AIPAC and heat up their keyboards demanding American aid in a big way, a big and public way. This is what you saw described in comment #22. If AIPAC was the tail wagging the American dog, there would be lots of GI's tramping around Israel so that everyone would know what a big and important ally Israel was to the United States.

Every GI hefting his M16 and Kevlar coated uniform with the Stars and Stripes on it would trumpet to the world "here lives a secure Jew!"

Then the presence of American convenience and stores. American Zionists would want their Postal Service, their department stores, even their electric grids duplicated in their zones of Israel. As it is, even without the fantasy I described, American immigrants here tend to settle together in little bubbles. There are places in Jerusalem that look and sound just like Kings Highway or Avenue J in Brooklyn on a busy May afternoon. I have to remind myself that I'm not living in Brooklyn anymore when passing through.

But that is the point of what I wrote in comment #22. It is all fantasy. The last time Olmert was in Washington for a conference with Arabs, he was treated like an Arab's dog, a second class servant told to come in the servants' entrance. The Arabs refused even to shake hands with him. All this with the approval of George Bush and his er "administration". Thus, does the American government treat the government of the Jews in fact, whether the sympathizers of the "poor Palestinians" who sport fancy apartment buildings with satellite dishes cheek and jowl with the water heaters, believe this or not.

Morris:

""What keeps the US so much out of mainstreat thinking? Is it their wisdom? What is their logic? Can you explain that Joseph? It is simple, the lobby my friend the lobby. As far as war with Iraq is concerned, it was stupidity of the present administration. But the foreign policy with respect to Israel has been consistent over the years.""

Good points. A veto in the UN by the US whenever Israel's policy is criticized by every other country, is almost a reflex action...a forgone conclusion. However, there is no guarantee that US will support Israel through thick and thin. All superpowers have permanent interests, not permanent allies. The US will not hesitate to change its policies if the geopolitics of the region changes suddenly, perhaps due to increasing turmoil in the region etc. The US has a fairly consistent record of abandoning allies, whenever it is expedient. The list of examples would fill up a fair amount of cyberspace. Yes, the Israel lobby is strong and yes it influences some decisions, but usually only when it coincides with the interests of the US government. But such influence is not permanent. No superpower has permanent friends or enemies. Only interests. I do not claim to be right, but just a viewpoint.

Troll:

""I have to apologize for the pathetic manners of two of the posters, posters who will not be named, as they have brought nothing but acrimony and contempt to this comment thread.""

Vinod Joseph, perhaps new to DC, is probably not entirely familiar with the modus operandi of the troll. Generous as it may sound to apologize on my behalf, but thanks, no thanks. I can still type.

Troll:

""I have to apologize for the pathetic manners of two of the posters, posters who will not be named, as they have brought nothing but acrimony and contempt to this comment thread.""

Vinod Joseph, perhaps new to DC, is probably not entirely familiar with the modus operandi of the troll. Generous as it may sound to apologize on my behalf, but thanks, no thanks. I can still type.

Troll:

"I have to apologize for the pathetic manners of two of the posters, posters who will not be named, as they have brought nothing but acrimony and contempt to this comment thread."

DON'T apologize for me. If you have half a conscience then apologize for the hate speech you consistently post on DC!

Anamika,

Commonsense has a thicker skin than you do. But, you do both come when called out! ;o))

I've sworn off the hateful acrimony that the two of you continue to spill forth like sour pancake batter. It was very unpleasant to participate in then, and I refuse to be drawn into it further. Life is too short to get angry at or be disturbed by desiring to sue people who are nothing more than anonymous noises on a web-site. I have better things to do with my life.

I speak my opinions and refuse to be drawn out to attack you or anyone else. Learn from Harold Bergsma, who speaks with grace and kindness. I certainly have.

Love and kisses from [EDITED],
Ruvy

P.S. If you honestly want to have a frank discussion, look up my e-mail address at my web-log above and talk with me there - away from the capricious and inconsistent editorial policies practiced here.

Ruvy: "If you honestly want to have a frank discussion, look up my e-mail address at my web-log above and talk with me there - away from the capricious and inconsistent editorial policies practiced here."

Would that be similar to a Polish Jew in 1941 engaging in correspondence with Goebbels?

Just as I assume the "love and kisses from liberated Samaria" are in the same league as Nazi soldiers posting "love and kisses from Bergen-Belsen"?

You stop your hate speech and I will engage with you with politeness. There is call for politeness or courtesy when dealing with genocidal fanatics!

Correction: "There is NO call for politeness or courtesy when dealing with genocidal fanatics!"

Vinod,

The following is a link to an opinion by Sheikh Abdulhadi Palazzi, of the Italian Muslim Assembly. Based on the points in his speech, Aryeh Gallin, of the Root & Branch Association in Jerusalem, published the following (sorry, no URL is available; I tried). Before continuing with the text, I'd note that Ariel Sharon, who in reality died from a stroke in January 2006 but who has been artificially kept alive to serve the ambitions of Ehud Olmert, lies rotting like a tomato - fitting punishment for a man who ruined the lives of thousands of tomato growers in Israel, and who thereby, has artificially raised food prices here.

Note further that conditions for Arabs in Gaza have not improved. Money goes primarily to arm terrorists, propagandize the public, plan murder and rebellion, and fight the half-hearted efforts of the IDF to stop this murder and rebellion - but yet the Arabs in Gaza remain better off than the their Egyptian brothers who suffer in el-Arish.

Finally, the opinions expressed below in English are frequently heard expressed in Hebrew. As I said, no URL was available to me: I apologize for the long post.

From the text:

"Severe Sin" -- Bush/Sharon Gush Katif Pogrom and Juden Deportation "Serious Crimes" and "Severe Sins".

"Open Rebellion" -- Deportation Rubber Stamping U.S. Congress and Israeli Knesset in State of "Open Rebellion" against G-d of Israel.

"Never Again"? -- Legalized Asset Theft of billions of dollars of Currently-Being-Deported Gush Katif Jewish Pioneer homes, farms and businesses, compensation (if at all) of owners forced to sell assets at fraction of real value and transfer of those assets to World Bank for sale to prospective buyers (such as Wye Plantation owning Aspen Institute) replay of early 1930's Nazi German Legalized Asset Theft (Arianisierung Gesetze/Arianization "Laws") forcing To-Be-Deported German Jews to "sell" assets at fraction of real value.

"$.$. $piritual Heirs" -- World Bank (founded 1944; headquarters, Washington, D.C.) $.$. $piritual Heirs of Bank for International Settlements (B.I.S.) (founded 1930; headquarters, Basel, Switzerland), which operated during World War Two with a U.S. President (Thomas McKittrick) and Nazi German General Director (Paul Hechler) "legally" transferring stolen Jewish assets out of Nazi Germany to Argentina and other countries (including gold from teeth of Jews, mass murdered in Nazi Death Camps, melted down to ingots by Nazi German Reichsbank).

"Nazi German/Saudi Wahhabi Collaborators" -- Nazi German Collaborating Union Banking Corporation Director Grandpa Prescott Bush betrayed the Jews of Germany and Europe (and all Americans fighting Hitler) for profits during World War Two. Grandpa Prescott's son, Saudi Wahhabi Collaborating U.S. Shadow President George H.W. Bush and Grandson, U.S. President George W. Bush, betray the Jews of Israel (and all Americans fighting Saudi sponsored Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood) today for almost 100% U.S. tax free Saudi oil profits.

"Fallen Vichy Israel?" -- Israeli "leader"ship today starting to smell like French "leader"ship of late 1930s. Will Prime Minister Ariel Sharon soon star as Modern Marshal Henri Philippe Petain (with Shimon Peres playing Pierre Laval) in "Fallen Vichy Israel"?

"Divinely Decreed Devastation" -- Divinely Decreed Devastation "rapidly accelerating descent" on nations -- and their "leaders" -- supporting current Gush Katif Juden Deportation and Legalized Asset Theft as punishment for these sins.

"Thus says the Lord" -- "Thus says the Lord G-d: It shall come to pass in that day, that things shall come into your (Gog's) mind, and you shall device an evil device [Quartet/Sextet Roadmap]; and you shall say: 'I will go up against the Land (of Israel) of unwalled villages; I will come upon them who are at quiet, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates; to take the spoil and to take the prey'; to turn your hand against the waste places (Gush Katif currently, Judea and Samaria soon) which are now inhabited, and against the People (of Israel) who are gathered out of the nations, who have gotten cattle and goods, who dwell in the middle of the earth. Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the magnates thereof, shall say to you (Gog): 'Do you come to take the spoil? Have you assembled your company to take the prey? To carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take great spoil?'" [Yehezkel/Ezekiel 38:10-13]

The majority of Jews in this country are not fully religious, Vinod, but hold "traditional" views, following the commandments to some degree or another. What is defined here as "traditional" would be defined in the UK or the States as very religious. The majority of Jews in Israel now agree with the assessment of affairs expressed above, and what is written above resonates deeply with them - even though the minority of "power-holders" (the crime minister, his cabinet, the "high court" of Injustice, and much of the Hebrew "media") do not. They are the rich, bought out secular minority who oppose a Jewish entity here, but are happy to live well speaking Hebrew - so long as they think they have a way out if war goes the wrong way for them.

The vast majority of my fellow country-men (73%) oppose the evacuation of Judea and Samaria, and the Heights to Golan to the Arabs, and that 63% want Olmert to be kicked out.

AIPAC, as I told you above, is just a pack of blowhards in America with big checkbooks and brains smaller then their wallets. Blaming them for American foreign policy - particularly in light of all the evidence to the contrary - is the equivalent of blaming rickshaw pullers for the poverty in India.

And now I leave you for the Sabbath. Other work awaits which must be completed in less than four hours.

Shabbat Shalom,
Ruvy

Ending underlined test here (hopefully). Oh well, - I see I meesed up yet another HTML link. Let's try this again. Link to Arutz Sheva, about three years ago..

Here we go again...this calls for some (bad) Urdu poetry, from the Qalam-e-Notting Hill, Janab Buddha Banker:

"Is butparast pe firauniyat ka ilzaam lagaa chuke the,
murtad ka taaj pehnaa kar humein thukra diye the,

(cue wah-wahs)

to ab kiske tasawwur mein rehna ka yeh nateeja hai
ki is nacheez ko murshid banaaya jaa raha hai?"

(fill in suitable applause here)

Getting to the point - could someone explain to me how the "oil and banking establishment in America" backs the Arabs? I'm intrigued, especially since Syria, Palestine and Iran all are on high alert compliance lists within most international banks (in fact, very few banks will do business with Iran, and that includes leading GCC Islamic banks, since they don't want to incur international sanctions)

Also, Ruvy, is it a biblically-inspired Freudian slip that you refer in #5 to American Jews wishing to escape the "stigmata" of being Jewish? The last time I went to catechism (yes, I studied in a Roman Catholic establishment run by Dog's own Rottweilers) stigmata refer to wounds corresponding to those inflicted during the Passion of the Christ. By definition, these can only appear on the bodies of incredibly devout Catholics, so I suspect that the Jewish people would probably be ruled out of that collective...

Nitpicking in the greatest Indian tradition - now, i need to get back to earning an imaandar tuncaw, but will follow the almost certain to ensue tumasher that will emerge on this thread...

yep, here we go again. but i will try to hold back, because, it will predictably be the same old, same old.

and while commending Harold on the other thread ("break the bread together"), and daring to apologize after using the language that he does, the troll does predictably forget his "Gaza (no loss)" spiel. Cute but not.

I cannot answer... I am too busy hiding from myself and running from my faith.

thanks!

(giggles and dashes away)

Troll:

""I have to apologize for the pathetic manners of two of the posters, posters who will not be named"

Troll, your fellow co-religionist, Smallsquirrel is mortified that you have not included her in your gallery of rogues. After all, she did have this to say to you, just yesterday:

""I find those words about gaza troubling and abhorrent. as a human and as a jew.

a life is worth the same world over. the sooner ruvy realizes that, the better. I do not suppose it's going to happen, though.

ruvy, why oh why must you continue on with the hate speech. what makes you and different than our zulfikar here? you're both full of hate!""

Or does the wound cut too deep when it comes from a fellow Jew?

Troll:

""Commonsense has a thicker skin than you do. But, you do both come when called out! ;o))""

Huh? Methinks Troll claimed he was failed law school student, then a failed Burger-Kinger? Had no idea he failed his dermatology lessons too.

As for us coming when we are called, did the Troll not many times swear that he would never re-appear again? Hmm...trolls are, but trolls.

I have a few minutes before the Sabbath, and the work I had to get done is done - so we'll answer the Smiling Buddha.

We'll deal with "stigmata" first. Words have a habit of changing meanings over the centuries, and while I'm sure you are right in the original meaning of the word "stigmata", its meaning and usage has changed over the many centuries since the Christian "god" got nailed. Maybe Catholics still tend to use the word to connote its original meaning, and given your explanation, I can see why. But explain to a American black that he is supposed to pay for the privilege of living in a ghetto, that his own laws, and not those of "the man" apply there, and that after a certain hour, if he leaves its confines, he is subject to imprisonment and fines. He's liable to look at you as if you had taken leave of your senses.

But that is the original meaning of "ghetto".

You mean I really need to explain how it is that the oil and banking establishment backs the Arabs? The Arabs have the oil that the oil profiteers make an obscene fortune off of, and the oil profiteers deposit that money in banks. The Arabs are business partners to the oil men and bankers. And lately, they appear on the way to becoming more than mere partners.

Would you go to war with your business partner? Or with your boss?

Oh, by the way, if you value your teeth, don't ever mistake a Persian for an Arab....

Have a good Sabbath,
Ruvy

As I usual I take the issue with `Indo-centric' point of view. American invasion to Iraq has proved to be very harmful to India's interests in middle east and Saddam was a very good freind of India and least fanatic ruler in whole middle east.

Iraq under Saddam was always constructive on Kashmir in OIC meetings and downplayed Babari event. As such India lost a valuable freind and ally in the middle east with demise of Saddam.

It was big loss for us.

the only gain is focus of Jehadis on Iraq and Afganistan and Kashmir and Chechenya has become low priority areas.

India could have taken benefit of this situation and solved kashmir issue by eliminating article 370 and annexing Kashmir fully with India but our spineless leadership could not gather courage to do so even under such highly favourable circumestances.

India could have said that in our national interest we have taken the decison.

Bhai CS this is the second time I am agreeing with you. I forgot when we agreed first time though but I I remember we did it.

Yes Saudi and Pakistan were tow dictatorships most dangerous to democratic movement on the earth. Majority of Jehadis come from these countries and so deos the funds.

India and bangla desh also have joined the train now with Saudi and Pakistan and contributing significantly in producing jehadis.

32 Indian doctors networking in Glasgo Blast case is merely tip of the iceberg.

Troll-Ruvy:

""Commonsense has a thicker skin than you do."

Pachiderm: = exposed a few times, caught with his pants down a few times, swore he'd never re-appear but as predicted, "he's back"! aka chuptzah

Troll Ruvy:

""Life is too short to get angry at or be disturbed by desiring to sue people""

Right! And when you do decide to become a suer (no I don't mean what this word means in Hindi, but just someone who likes to sue), please do get lawyers versed in secular not divine law, even though you hate anything and anyone to do with secularism. Just a tip.

Israel is the only secular democracy in whole middle east though. It is surrounded by fanatically thoecratic states from all sides.

Propagnda is such a powerful tool though and capable of demonising the victims of terror and glorifying the terrorists.

It happens in India also. Rest of India spends around 12000 cr a year on Muslim pilgrimage and Kashmir does not allow Hindu Pilgrims a place for temporary stay only because it being muslim majority state scared of loosing its `Kashmiriat'?

Funniest thing is that all so calles seculars who openly associate and enjoy power with most communal and fanatic muslim parties have shut their mouth and tails.

seculars humanists are hiding somewhere after seeing the real character of Jehadi Muslim minds when they are in Majority (in Kashmir) and when they are in minority in rest of India where they demand and enjoy more then equal rights and still keep on shouting `discrimination by infidels'.

I am talking about Jehadi Muslims and should not be mistook by whole muslim community in spite of the fact that these jehadis are ruling the muslim communities in most of the cases.

It's Vinod Joseph's writings which to me seem to be suspect. Why doesn't he talk of good old Woodrow Wilson, who was a stooge of the Europeans, and who was responsible for starting World Wars 1 and 2? That to me is an example of extraterritorialist lobbying run amok.

Notice how 'Wilsonianism' is gushingly equated with 'enlightened' foreign policy by its supporters -- their sly way of promoting Euro-centrism under a liberal sheepskin.

Look at how Wilson initiated the Federal Reserve and with it the practice of fiscal profligacy and irresponsibility. This is a policy that Americans are now heavily paying for today. But you don't see anybody writing any papers to challenge Wilsonianism.

These things were all done by pro-European extra-territorialist lobbies in the US, at the expense of US interests. I don't see Vinod Joseph giving even the slightest notice to these machiavellian games. One has to wonder where his own scruples and interests lie. Selective morality isn't morality at all. Selective liberalism isn't liberalism at all.

So stigmata is not stigmata now? From a completely socio-linguist perspective, words DO grow over time. However these are generally words that are rooted in sociological phenomenon - ghetto and diaspora being two good examples. Stigmata however is a specific religious and theological term - its a bit like saying that "sabbath" has evolved over the centuries to mean the same as "weekend."

Good try, but no cigar!

Man Singh: Israel the the "only" democracy? When its own citizens are denied the fundamental human rights based on their ethnicity and religion?
Remember the huge amount of voting that happened in the Palestinian territories? They made the "mistake" of electing a party that Israel, US and EU didn't like. It was definitely democracy in action but because the results didn't suit Israel and western powers, sanctions were imposed. Remember Algeria? Again people elected the party they wanted but it didn't suit the west. The same story has been played out all through ME - if there isn't democracy in that region, its because it doesn't suit western interests.

I am all for an Indo-centric view of the world, but that does not mean that view should be based on propaganda or factually incorrect information. Also "democracy" is too often a catch-word for western intervention - so hardly very convincing.

Sanjay: Vinod's piece was a review of ONE particular book. Why would it talk of Wilsonian politics?

Man Singh:

""Israel is the only secular democracy in whole middle east""

AND:

Man Singh:
""Propagnda is such a powerful tool though and capable of demonising the victims""

Thus unknowingly, unintentionally but brilliantly demonstrating, thru his own words, how powerful a tool propaganda indeed is.

Shavua Tov (have a good week),

In my initial comment on this fine article, I stated the following:

Mearsheimer and Walt would have Americans and others forget basic facts of history so that they might blame Jews in America (and in Israel) for the deaths of American soldiers in Iraq and for the economic problems consequent to the tremendous amount of money wasted in the swamps of the Tigris and Euphrates.

I return to this now, as this is the bottom line.

The only people threatened by the "theories" (really re-hashed Arab agit-prop) of Mearsheimer and Walt are Jews.

On this list, that means only two people, to my knowledge. Me, and one other, who now lives in the States, and says (sarcastically), "I am too busy hiding from myself and running from my faith."

Then, like so many Jews do when faced with real threats to their lives, she "giggles and dashes away".

ein milím - there are no words to answer this.

May she live long and prosper, may her family grow and may she see grandchildren around her like a crown of honor. And may she not share the fate of her European co-religionists who died between 1914 and 1945.

May she enjoy the blessing Moses gave to Israel's eldest son in the Torah.

"May Reuven live and not die...." [D'varím/Deuteronomy 33:6 in part]

Blessings from the mountains of Samaria,
Ruvy

ruvy, really... I mean, how can I not be angry by the implication you made that all Jews that do not live in Israel are running away from their faith?

I don't want to live there. I see no reason for me to live there. I do not agree with the politics, I do not agree with the actions of the government, and I really really do not agree with settlement. You and I have talked about this before.

I respect that you want to live your faith. But we are far far far from seeing eye to eye on most things. and really, you make comments that make my heart hurt. if I have to despise arabs to be a jew, I no longer wish to be a jew. if I have to think about taking up arms to be a jew, I no longer wish to be a jew. if I have to be filled with hate to be a jew, I no longer wish to be a jew.

thankfully I know these are not truths, but I hope you know I did not write the above lightly.

I wish you the best ruven, but I am not like you.

peace.

smallsquirrel,

I mean, how can I not be angry by the implication you made that all Jews that do not live in Israel are running away from their faith?

....................................

If I have to despise Arabs to be a Jew, I no longer wish to be a Jew; if I have to think about taking up arms to be a Jew, I no longer wish to be a Jew. If I have to be filled with hate to be a Jew, I no longer wish to be a Jew.

I've stated facts, not implications, and these facts apply not merely to you, who are a stranger to me, they apply to my sister, my nephews, my grand-nephews and nieces, and the majority of my cousins. That really hurts to say. But these are facts nevertheless.

You have spoken according to that which you feel. You have made your choices, and it is not my place to argue with you here.

bim'kóm Hillulím, brakhót - In place of curses, let there be blessings. That is what you see in my comment #57, and that is what you see below.

May you learn to cry for Jerusalem with tears from within your heart and teach your children to do likewise. May you learn to hunger for the Land in your soul. And then, may the remainder of the blessing for the tribe of Reuven also apply to you - ...."and may his population be included in the count". [D'varím/Deuteronomy 33:6 in part]

shalóm u'vrakhá
Peace and blessings from Ma'ale Levoná, the mountain of frankincense.

Someone said, there are no permanent allies or enemies, only permanent interests (perhaps it was the usual suspect, the one with verbal diarrhea ;)). In America's case this interest is primarily economic. The runaway capitalism has reached such a stage that American leaders are unable to think beyond the pockets of their friends, namely the oil-arms-drugs-bankers-insurers-doctors-lawyers lobby. Guess who controls most of these lobbies. I have not done any research on this, but I suspect a vast majority are Jews. That definitely explains the Israeli tint in the US foreign policy.

The motivation behind US invasion of Iraq was not only oil, it was a combination of factors. The oil lobby definitely rejoiced at the prospect, but I am sure even arms industry was involved somewhere. Given the total control of Washington (and New York) by vested interests, the national interests, the global interests, the human interests are only words; to be used for hoodwinking the public. We are truly in a matrix like nightmare, don't know if we will ever wake up.

Regards,

Ravi

CS
"Yes, the Israel lobby is strong and yes it influences some decisions, but usually only when it coincides with the interests of the US government."

You imply that the US policy in the mid-east is also in their interest. That is debatable. What interest it is serving? All the outcome appear to be negative and according to you the US should drop the support of Israel. But that is very unlikely in forseeable future. It is the lobby. The only other factor may be the media.

Anamika, the whole interest in this "book" to begin with, is due to ethnic selectivity and prejudice. Like I said, scrutiny is being selectively given to certain ethnic groups, while others are getting off scot-free. If the Jews are up for discussion, then so should the Europeans be. After all, this whole problem was created by the Europeans in the first place, and as Indians we shouldn't be giving a free pass to the colonials. Israel was after all the first non-European country to suffer European conquest and colonial subjugation. They created the name Palestine just as surely as they created the name Pakistan. They re-drew the maps for their convenience.

Dear Ruvy,

I love conspiracies, as you can see from my previous post. I loved your intricately woven theory of conspiracy behind world wars, US hegemony and USSR. Did you ever write subsequent chapters? If so please provide the links.

Regards,

Ravi

Ravi,

Thank you for your kind words (haven't been able to write that in a long time here). I'm guessing you went to my blogsite and read something there. Since many of my postings allude to the control of this country by foreigners in one way or another, perhaps you could leave a comment at the specific article that you read that impressed you so.

There is one article on my site that I'd like to publish either here or at Blogcritics Magazine, but it is an awful long read, (making it problematic at BC) and it has very little that a Desi might relate to, which would lead to all sorts of complaints from some commenters lamenting why Desis have to endure here the viewpoint of someone so alien.

Anyway, I await your comments.

brakhót m'ma'álé levoná b'haré shomrón
Blessings from Ma'ale Levona in the mountains of Samaria,
Ruvi

Morris:

""You imply that the US policy in the mid-east is also in their interest. That is debatable. What interest it is serving? All the outcome appear to be negative""

Morris, I don't think only I imply it. Almost any official document from the US administration, as well as almost all the speeches by the presidential contenders, refer to "our vital interests". This is not an issue that requires much interpretation or the use of too much brains since it is all over the map, loudly and proudly announced!! The ritualized invocation of "our interests" is so routinized that I am surprised that you think that I am stretching reality by "implying" such interests.

However, you raise a good issue when you talk about the nightmaris scenarios, where almost "all outcomes are negative". This is not surprising either: it is usually known as "unintended consquences". One can figure out one's interests, and act upon it with the full force of one's military and so-called allies, but the outcome is never ever determined by the plans that are initially laid out. Think Vietnam, the Algerian war etc. etc. In the same vein, there is nothing wrong as such with ""conspiracy theories"" as long as the term is understood properly. If everything that happens is interepreted by referrring to conspiracies, then of course it is plain silly. But conspiracies, in terms of deliberate action to achieve some ends are not uncommon. The problem of course is that such planning does not and cannot take into account a number of factors that get in the way and create unintended consequences. Think of Mrs. Gandhi and the whole Punjab issue in the 1980's. Does somebody seriously believe that everything happens in this world just by chance and accident, and there is no planning and implementation based on perceived "interests"?? Some might call them conspiracies, others might have other terms for them.

Ravi Kulkarni is on the spot about runaway global capitalism powerfully shaping all these actions and events. So, contrary to impression, this is NOT A QUESTION of knee-jerk, "anti-Americanism" but a combination of a number of factors that go back to the imperatives of capitalism. If France were the superpower now, it would be roughly a similar story and the French would react to what they would perceive "anti-Frenchism".

So other factors such as geopolitics, pure power, misanthropy, ideology etc. play a role? Of course they do, but the name of the game is, as Ravi Kulkarni has pointed out, runaway capitalism and what is now called "disaster capitalism" where even catastrophies and nightmares are occasions for accumulating more billions: think Katrina, think Iraq (think not just Haliburton) etc. etc. Is the story more complex than this? You bet my sweet ass it is, but if this key point is forgotten, we are simply fighting shadows.

Yes, my terminal verbal diarrohea is pretty much incurable. Oh well!

Ravi Kulkarni:

""The oil lobby definitely rejoiced at the prospect, but I am sure even arms industry was involved somewhere. Given the total control of Washington""

The late American president (not some loony leftist, so to speak!) coined the term "the military-industrial complex" a few decades ago, just after the war, to warn Americans of its developing power and its implications for Americans and the rest of the world. There are many studies done on this issue, including by American sociologists such as C. Wright Mills etc. who analyze the close connections between industry, the military and the government, and how the key figures here actually so easily move from one institution to the other, influencing policies dramatically. No conspiracy theory this, since none of this is hidden or under wraps. Think of ANY key secretary or high government officials and the links are all very visible, with no effort at all to hide them.

Ruvy,

what say you of this article? curious to know what you think...

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2008/758/39158

Bob,

Haaretz journalist, Amos Schocken, argued in the June 29 report, entitled "Citizenship law makes Israel an apartheid state", that, with the laws extension, the apartheid nature of the Israeli state needed to be acknowledged.

This is just standard trash from Haaretz, which is the propaganda vehicle of the Schocken family, a bunch of secular religion-hating Jews who never almost never miss an opportunity to put down the country of their birth and the faith of their forefathers. In essence, Haaretz represents the ruling elite of the "People's Republic of Tel Aviv" that has nothing but contempt for the majority of us here in Israel, and would sell their souls for acceptance by the Brits - the ones who call this a "shitty little country".

The real issues of the law are a different kettle of fish altogether, and have nothing to do with the stupid labeling by the Schocken kid writing for the family rag.

Comment #68

In other words, please don't bother me with facts; I'd rather be baba-bliss in my own divine make-believe world...

comment 69

I agree.

comment 68

So Ruvy, your saying that Israel does not have laws that discriminate against non-Jews?
Someone with a zionist/racist mindset like yourself would nor could acknowledge that Israel is an apartheid state.

CS
My question was: What vital interests the US policy serves? I was not discussing what the US officials were saying. When they go along with the lobby, they have no choice but to say that it is in the US interest. You missed my point.

Bob,

I said nothing of the sort. You asked me my opinion of an article found at an anti-Israel site that picked up the trash that the Schocken "kid" wrote for the family rag.

What I said specifically was that the legal issues are a whole different kettle of fish. There are several angles that need to be examined in detail, including jurisdiction, security, and national status.

If Judea and Samaria were annexed to the State, and laws like this were on the books then you could claim blatant discrimination - it would be. But Judea and Samaria officially holds the status of "disputed territory", it is not annexed to the State, it is under military jurisdiction and a "Civil Administration" where Jews control it, its Arab residents are not citizens of the State of Israel, and are not even citizens of the Kingdom of Jordan, they are the citizens of a nigh fictional thugocracy called the "Palestinian Authority".

Since the security of the State is at issue, and Arab terrorists will use any means to transport themselves into the country (including carrying arms and explosives in ambulances) for the purpose of killing Jews, and celebrate the death of Jews dancing in the street like savages craving murder (note the celebration in Lebanon over the murderer freed and handed over in return for dead bodies), the State of Israel has a minimal duty to its own citizens to keep unauthorized individuals out.

I don't care what you call it; I certainly don't care what some western ass-kissing rag like Ha'aretz calls it. I call it maintaining minimal peace order. Note the key word here is minimal.

Frankly, if the Arabs ceased terror against us, they would not be subject to military interference with their lives or incursions on what is allegedly their territory. But since they are in effect waging war, what I view as rebellion, the minimal security any citizen can expect in Israel is that those who would wage war upon us and murder us would be kept out.

The troll is predictable. I suggest not feeding it further...

Morris,

Yes, i did misunderstand your point. The lobby is indeed a very strong factor and should not be dismissed. there are other interests too. Wish i knew the exact answer, but i don't.

Comment on Comment #72 by TrollR:

What does "boilerplate" mean?

boilerplate: In information technology, a boilerplate is a unit of writing that can be reused over and over without change

Comment on Comment #72 by TrollR:

What does "boilerplate" mean?

boilerplate: In information technology, a boilerplate is a unit of writing that can be reused over and over without change

Hence it is that one becomes a "writer" without really writing or thinking.

Some back-up for my observations at comment #72.

The painful realities of life and death and attempting to provide minimal security for a citizenry at war. On 6 March, an Arab van driver murdered in cold blood a number of yeshiva students enjoying a meal that celebrated the new month. Because he was known, he was invited in. In early, July, an Arab municipal worker, who knew the killer of the yeshiva kids, killed three people in a vehicular attack aimed at Jews done purposely in front of the Capital Studios on the Jaffa Road in Jerusalem, where international media could cover it - and subsequently distort the coverage.

Arab terrorists have become so practiced at their determination to kill us, that it has become boilerplate - and it is only prudence and due diligence not to hire them where they can do so.

cs:

1: why kahane and kahanites are outlawed and treated as pariahs?

2: what do you find common with kahane and hitler

3: What do you find common with kahane and osama

i know this will make demand on your valuable time...so no rush...

note: this is addressed to cs