Sisyphus And the Israeli-Palestinian Crisis

beady:

when all is said, done, read and postulated...the bottom line remains...peace cannot be imposed by force or threat...the two main parties to the conflict should themselves arrive at a just and amenable agreement to their peaceful coexistence and survival...otherwise this conflict will continue to spark conflicts

Good piece. A slight worry that I had - who exactly is this "Muslim nation"? I am always a bit uneasy when vast populations of mind-boggling diversity are lumped into a single category. Would we talk of a "Christian" nation that covered Africa, Latin America and Europe. So why this elision of every other marker of identity - personal, collective, social and political - in case of the Muslims?

At the risk of sounding like a broken record: The Palestinians talk of themselves as the qamis- ul-Usman or Usman´s shirt that is waved when convenient to raise morale-anger-indignation. But there is little evidence that that a "Muslim nation" acts on their behalf.

On a slightly different note, I think what gets missed out here is the complexity of reactions from non-Muslims from "developing" and formerly colonized countries that see Israel as a perpetuation of the colonial enterprise, foisted upon the region. That seems to suggest that it is historical/political/economic/cultural issues that find affinities with the plight of the Palestinians rather than just the "Muslim nation" factor.

Funnily enough, the Dalai Lama has always walked a very fine line in public on this issue. Yet many Tibetan activists often compare/contrast their own situations to that of Palestinians. The similarity again is based on the issue of colonization rather than religion.

Personally, I was happy with the Israeli-Palestinian crisis, as it has saved me a few quid. You see, using software developed in Israel for counter terrorist purposes, the local council has saved hundreds of thousands of pounds by implementing a lie detection system over the phone. So when you call up our council to claim benefits, the operator says that you are being evaluated by this lie detection system, you would either not go ahead with the claim or would have the claim rejected because the system thinks you are telling 'porkies'. The amount of porkies that are told in the aftermath of the Israeli Palestinian Crisis is monumental.

Nu, bd? Even in fighting these killers we manage to benefit you! What would you do without murderous, genocidal, Zionist imperialist pigs like us, eh? Not only do we colonize, murder rape and otherwise maltreat the poor innocent "Palestinians" who only lob rockets (big versions of little rocks) into shopping centers in Ashqelon, we manage to lower your taxes with our technology! Without us genocidal murderous Jewish/nazi slime, you'd be paying higher taxes.

I know that the two quid you save are barely enough to buy you a cuppa per month, but hey, that's better than nothing ain't it? Find out what company developed the technology and write them a letter of appreciation. They deserve it!

Let's see what this `vast populations of mind-boggling diversity are lumped into a single category' calls itself.

"Ummah (Arabic: أمة‎) is an Arabic word meaning Community or Nation. It is commonly used to mean either the collective nation of states, or (in the context ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah"

OIC the most representetative bopdy of this Umma
says in its objectives:
http://www.oic-un.org/about/Charter.htm

Article 2 : Objectives
"to back the struggle of all Muslim people with a view to preserving their dignity, independence and national rights;"

"to coordinate efforts for the safeguarding of the Holy Places and support of the struggle of the people of Palestine, to help them regain their rights and liberate their land;"


Official Website for Ministry of Foreign Affairs, MalaysiaA UNITED OIC FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE UMMAH .... especially in defending the Muslim cause, regain the vigour and honour of the Ummah. ...
www.kln.gov.my/?m_id=25&vid=321

Charter To Address Ummah's Issues Adopted, Kashmir news Kashmir ...Charter To Address Ummah's Issues Adopted. Listen Listen Font Size a+ a-. OIC reaffirms complete, unflinching support to just Kashmir cause ...
www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=17_3_2008&ItemID=55&cat=1

Question of Palestine as the central cause of the Muslim Ummah ...Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC). 8 December 2005 ... the importance of the question of Palestine as the central cause of the Muslim Ummah. ...
domino.un.org/UNISPAL.nsf/d80185e9f0c69a7b85256cbf005afeac/ebcd7d267c398b6d852570d5005514df!OpenDocument

There are so many other Top islamic bodies always refering Muslims around the world as single entity as `Ummah' and show solidarity for their struugle in any part of the world.

Support for Palestine and kashmir by OIC is not on humanitarian ground, it is clearly on religious ground.

They do not hide their intentions. It is some educated elite of India who are not ready to see the truth.

Now question comes equating communities with animals. I'll quote only few verses of Quran here to make people aware who stands for what?

Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66

Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96

there are 518 verse full of hate and violence against non muslims and atheists that makes around one in every nine of total 6336 verses.

Please dun brand me as `anti' something. It is pure truth and can be verified by any sensible human.

Please verify and then enlighten me if I am wrong somewhere.

I'll happy accept any grain of truth coming from anyside of the universe as Adi Shankara said `chandaalopi mam guru' (even a Chandal is my Guru as he also taught me something)

Man Singh,

This line Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. [Qur'an 2:65-66] gets great play among Jews condemning Islam out of hand - except that they never ever point out that what is being condemned is hypocrisy. It hurts to have to admit that you (NOT you personally, Man Singh) are a damned hypocrite, and in the eyes of another people who believe in One G-d, hypocrites deserve to be turned into apes....

Just a thought for you from a Jew who does observe the Sabbath.

Anamika,

Thanks for the note.

the muslim nation is the self identified muslim nation. Generally, one does find this identification being held up by bodies as varied as people from OIC to CAIR to our lovely Brit bodies. They do care about their fellow religionists across the world. And nothing wrong with that, mind you. Freedom of association and freedom of speech.

Sermons and even discussions of common interest happen. Look the PEW research, like here

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=254

so the religiousity is higher, compare that with the christian angle in the survey...

Whether or not they act on the behalf of Palestine is not the point to that much, the fact that they self identify and are increasingly doing so leads me to think that they are a nation and getting more so as time goes on. At one extreme, you have people who are NOT palestinians dying for them and then on the other hand, they are getting money, moral support, diplomatic support, and and and.., and their suffering is actually helping in the nation formation process..

I can also call the jews as a nation, again for obvious reasons but not the Buddhists. The Hindu's are becoming one, its fascinating to see the process of this homogenisation happening.

Ruvy

there was a point in me raising that. Me sitting in sunny London am getting impacted by this crisis. My ex-PM is out there trying to (well, i am not very sure what he is doing there) but he is out there.

And btw, mate, dont forget, I am british as well, what do YOU know about genocide and murder that we dont for centuries?

...so the religiousity is higher, compare that with the christian angle in the survey...

:)


if the other side carried out these "surveys" ... (framing questions to elicit results) you would see different results

nice try beady;)

however the "nation" aspect is bloated and pounced by the phobia-driven ... same with "ummah" another straw argument

... even in india...the muslims from the north east and south west are more regional than 'muslim" national!

bd,

It's gets tiresome being called a genocidal killer by fools who should know better but refuse to. So, I decided to take the opportunity to use their words against them.

I don't know what being British has to do with knowing about genocide, but I can see that being Indian does.

I won't bore you with Jewish history and our own acquaintance with genocide and murder over the last 2,800 years. And I'm certainly not going to get into a pissing contest over which people was more victimized. That's downright silly.

As for your former prime minister, he's not doing a whit of good here. He'd do better to learn how the good Catholics he now likes so much managed to kill off the Christian Arab population of Greater Syria during the Crusades.

Ruvy:

""It's gets tiresome being called a genocidal killer by fools who should know better but refuse to."'

If they knew better, they wouldn't be fools, now would they? (And were I to follow your nitpicking about typos, to use it as as colonialist excuse to teach English to the natives, I'd rail at you for "It's" instead of "It", but I do know better, now don't I"?)

something interesting for you, mate

http://timnovate.wordpress.com/2008/05/12/how-many-of-you-have-heard-the-expression-%e2%80%9cinnovation-is-thinking-outside-the-box%e2%80%9d/#comment-41

Thank you, bd,

I read the article and bookmarked it for further reading and contemplation. I have to got to go to J-lem today (I'd really rather not) to deposit money in the bank, and all along the way, I'll be thinking about the article, and its practical applications....

"while the majority of liberal democracies, broadly defined, are lined up with Israel"

READ: United States....

actually, Chandra, as a matter of fact, if you look at the voting records where it matters, in the EU councils, in the UNSC, individual foreign policy actions of countries, most countries will line up with Israel....Or if i had to be extra conservative, they will line up with Israel more often than they would to Palestine. The UK does it, Germany does it, France despite a very long history of anti semitism and calling Israel a shitty little country by and large aligns its foreign policy with it, Italy does it. Japan is heavy with Israel. So does Australia and New Zealand. You know about India. South Africa may be a possible exception, but not by much. Latin America doesnt matter much. China generally officially abstains but has a serious military and industrial relationship (in some ways bigger than India) with Israel. Two reasons primarily, (1) terrorism, diplomacy and and and (2) technology and innovation.

beady:

chandra perhaps means the record of countries who consistently "veto" resolutions sanctioning israel without discussing the merits in the UNSC

;)

Beady

You will actually be surprised to note that most western democracies have voted more often against israel than in favour since in the 80s. However, including the 40s would turn the tide. Either way, survey after surveys show that teh Yanks are the only ones who think Israel is in the right. As far as India goes, it is not that we think they are right, it is a marriage of convenience. As more and more defence contractors from the US make their way into India, this is one special relationship that will e strained

bd writes: "while the majority of liberal democracies, broadly defined, are lined up with Israel...."

Chandra modifies it to: READ: United States....

I realize that this is how it looks, Chandra. It's supposed to look that way, especially to the Jewish voters in the States. The Jewish voters there are supposed to think that the "two democracies, aligned together, stand against the forces of darkness to the world".

What a pack of bullshit.

I guess I'll have to write those two other articles after all, even though they would stir up a far bigger stink at Blog Critics Magazine, where the Americans, especially American Jews, would be jumping up and down in indignation and righteous anger at being called out for what they really support.

Ruvy:

""What a pack of bullshit.""

I guess that's an argument, of sorts....

bd,

Thoughtful prose, as expected.

Too many moving parts in this machine to get my mind around. I commend your efforts at trying.

One area you flailed to mention is the other neighborhood players in the area. Nothing is done in a vacuum. Any contract agreed to by the Israels and Palestinians (as hard as that would be) would have to be accepted by the surrounding actors. How hard would it be to upset any initial delicate balance...assuming there was one?

Ciao, Guido

t, that's one way of looking at it.

Chandra

the fact that the people in the country have different views is not what I meant. I meant official policy towards Israel is different. As for what the population feels, well, European populations views on Jews is rather well known, lol, and has a very long historical background, conflating that with Israel is also a logical step and well, we have all seen the result of that...

other countries are not so much, so while I havent researched this, in australia, new zealand and other non-european liberal democracies, i suspect the situation would be different.

Ruvy # 5

Stererotyping whole community is the most stupid way of thinking. If Allah brands `sabbath breaking jews' as apes, or `Idolators are unclean', or `kill idolators wherever you find them' type of teachings in a religious book are definitely not acceptable and desrev to be condemned.

So called seculars and communists in India worry more for the sentiments of thoe who feel hurt when such stereotyping is requested to be deleted or corrected.

I don'nt bother though what they call me. because I belive God is infinite in every sense and there are infinite ways to reach Him.

Hari Anant Hari katha ananta which means God can be described in infinite ways because HE Himslef is infinite.

Sprituality is not the issue here. Issue is misuse of religion for political gains. Though no religion is fully free from such elements, but no other religion but Islam is governed by such hot headed cruel jehadis who are committing crimes against humanity to establish Dalul Islam on whole earth.

Most surprising thing is that there are some hypocrites who criticise Hitler but support jehadis in spite of knowing well that jehadis are more cruel and inhuman then hitler himself.

Mughal invader Babur celebrated his victor in India by making tower of heads of Hindus.

Look at mentality of a Jehadi:

From Baburnama, the Memoires of Babur Himself:
In AH 934 (2538 C.E.) I attacked Chanderi and by the grace of Allah captured it in a few hours. We got the infidels slaughtered and the place which had be Daru'l-Harb (nation of non-muslim) for years was made into a Daru'l-Islam (muslim nation).

Guido, #19, well, syria is obviously the main outstanding issue, rest should fall in line if Israel does a deal over the golan and more importantly over water.

Lebanon, well, that's another somalia...

bd,

I think we can add Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his backing of Hezbhala to the mix:

• Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury."

• "Remove Israel before it is too late and save yourself from the fury of regional nations."

• "The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land. As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map."

• "If the West does not support Israel, this regime will be toppled. As it has lost its raison d' tre, Israel will be annihilated."

• "Israel is a tyrannical regime that will one day will be destroyed."

• "Israel is a rotten, dried tree that will be annihilated in one storm."

At the very least, Iran is committed to a policy of destabilization.

Ciao, Guido

bd,

I suggest to you that what is going on is the creation of a new Iranian empire - an empire of a different type than what we have seen in the past. This article by Carolyn Glick might explain how and why this empire works to a degree, and explain as well a lot of my opposition to the so-called "government" of Israel.

Glick wants to keep her perch at the Jerusalem Post, so she does not call Olmert or Peres traitors, which they obviously are, but she's gotten awful close lately.

and, unlike you (another thread) she doesn't call them pigs either.

and, unlike you (another thread) she doesn't call them pigs either.

I don't have her perch to lose, so I can afford to call a pig a pig. I can afford to be blunt. Glick cannot. In short, her honesty has to stop at her need for a paycheck. That's not a criticism, that's just life in the newspaper biz.

That note on 'truth in journalism' reminds me of Warren Ellis' Transmetropolitan, which I should review soon

Well, we are all paychecked (so to speak) from one source or another and we all have our moments of "bad faith", compulsions, compromises etc....if everyone were brutally honest all the time, nothing would work. For startes, all my comments addressed to you would be deleted, no iffs and no buts.....those who live in glass-houses, should change their clothes in the basement (as i repeat ad nauseum)