Desicritics Comments on The Magnificence of the Taj Mahal

Comment by commonsense

Sat, 10 May 2008 19:47:16 EDT

amen

Comment by Man Singh

Sat, 10 May 2008 16:41:53 EDT

Deepti # 82 Did I ever shied away from plight of dalits? Definitely in Constitutional assembly there were quite few leaders from dalit community and majority were so called upper cast. They all almost unanimously accepted the ground reality of opression of dalits and recommended for corective measures. It is up to the people if they want to give any credit to this majority of people or to one or two dalit leaders of that time. Social ills creep in every society. Indians are no exception. Still invasion on such weak and degenerated society is crime. I left my door unlocked doesn'nt ensure a certificate to intruder. Thief is still a theif. Your mother was lucky who was able to protect her dignity. But there were millions who were not so lucky. A muslim saved her. But who were they who played with dignity of millions? Was it human nature or part of a systematic Jehadi poisoning started in 713 AD to capture all earth and change dar ul harab to dar ul islam? My question is glorifying the tyrants will repeat the 1947. This time was your mother another time may be my mother? Should we gloryfy those rapists and killers? Should we glorify Sajjan Kumars and Kamal nath? If we do , history will repeat itself. If we educate our coming generations that `prevention is better then cure'. Condemnation is better then condolences then we'll be able to repeat of history. That's it. There are 32 smritis and many more are unavalaible. Smritis are opinions of Individuals. There is not evidence that any ruler ruled India with Manu Smriti as its constitution. But dalit and women opression is a reality at least in last 1300 years since days of landlordism. Untill times of Harshvardhan even Dr Ambedakar agreed that concept of impurity was there but no untouchability. He quoted Baanbhatt's Kadambari in which a dalit girl who use to train parrots and sell it royal families. A parrot vaishampain trained by her was so talented that King Shoodrak bought it and married even that girl proving beyong doubt that by 5th-6th century there was no untouchability. I am not asking you to belive in Puranas Deepti, but they are pretty valuable source to understand ancient people. Of course imperial historians never gave any credit to indian references and so do our own `english educated elite'. But after discovery of Dwarika city submerged in ocean and its age almost matching with Mahabharat's time gives a lot of reason to belive that Purans have certain historical values. Ved, Upnishad and Puraan are the Shruti in decending order of authenticity. Till date I have not found any eveidence in Ved, Upnishad or any Important Puran anything about untouchability. Rather Narad, Vedvuasa, valmiki, kakbhushandi, jabali and many more saints and Rishis has been described as coming from so called dalit community. Tulsi Ramayan Utter kaand chopai 96 to 105 describes that kakbhushandi was a Shudra, A Brahmin gave him Guru mantra. he was chanting mantra inside the temple prooves what I said here. Yajurveda chapter 26 mantra 2 very clearly says that The way we have preached this divine knowledge to Brahmins, Khsatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras, O Humans , you also do the same so that in this world people giving dakshina to Deva's love us. May our wish come true and we get the fame. Shivpuran/Vidhyeshwara Samhita/pranavpanchakharmantra chapter17 shloka 50-63 very clearly says that by chanting 5 lack OM namah Shivay a Shudra becomes vaishya. A vaishya by chanting same amount becomes a Khsatriya and akhsatriya becomes a brahmins and a Bramin gets Mokhsa by chanting same amount of mantras. Bhagwadgeeta shloka 13 chapter 4 says The four Varna or divisions of human society, based on aptitude and vocation, were created by Me. Though I am the author of this system, one should know that I do nothing and I am eternal. (See also 18.41) (4.13) Niralambopnishad defines what Jaati is: What's Jaati(cast) : Skin, blood, flesh ,bones (all obtained by birth) or soul , none determines cast. Its behavior of a person that determines And above all bottomline comes on definition of terms. A full fledged Upnishad has been dedicated to define 'Brahmin' to avoid any misconception. I have just a given a smaple from Ved, Puran and ramayan what scriptures say about Shudras. Yes in Smritis which are opinions of individuals and not considered as Shastras may contain some nonsnese that is blamed for dalit opression. Unfortuantely euro-centric minds never bother to refer any other book other then manusmriti as if Manusmriti is the only book on ancinet India. As I mentioned so many times I am not against any community or religion Indian or foreign. All communities and civilisations have their own fair share of good and bad. Good should be adopted and bad should be condemned. I usually notice that Indian educated class generally hesitates in doing the second part. I do appreciate your efforts to highlight and adopt good from other civilisations and there is no harm in it. However to make sure history no repeating itself we should not hesitate in highlighting the negative poison associated with foreign invasions along with certain good things. Bhai CS I prefer to ignore every word you have written above untill you come with an evidence of `untouchability' before 713 AD. No matter u consider me the worst, but please debunk my theory with evidence. I never denied the existence of this social ill in our society. However blame goes to landlords and some greedy priests who connived with landlords. Landlords obviously were none other then gaddars and namakharams who sided with foreign invaders and punctured efforts of freedom fighters all through teh history. Ancinet Rishis can not be hanged for sins of landlords and traitor priests exactly the way common muslim can not be blamed for tyranny and opression by jehadis and other invaders to India unless they associate with them and glorify them vis a vis freedom fighters from indian side. Bhai CS please dig out ancinet scriptures and not merely english translations by imperilaists and come up with evidence to refute my claims and debunk my theories. Sometimes dose of truth becomes undigestible. especially for those brainwashed to glorify the hunters always and demonise the victims. Please come up with evidence my freinds. Ved is supremely authentic. Upnishads comes next Purans comes third Rest like Ramayan, mahabharat, Brahmsutras, Dharmasutras, Smritis etc are opinions of individuals in different times and keep on changing. You can write new smriti todays and I belive Indian constitution is modern Ambedkar Smriti to promote human values. In place of wasting your time in useless sarcasm come up with evidence my friend and prove me wrong.

Comment by commonsense

Sat, 10 May 2008 11:43:27 EDT

Man Singh: ""I don'nt know why Indians are unable to digest the opinion different from theirs."" 1. Got to be the millions of years of relentless, seamless subjugation at the hands of the various villains. 2. too opinionated? 3. No access to pachhnol/hazmola/pudeen-hara 4. if the above is indeed the case, you are wasting your time Man! 5. Don't know? I thought you were the Man who knew everything? har sawaal ka hal aapkey paas! Oops, sorry, did my deployment of the language of subjugation, Urdu, break your concentration?

Comment by commonsense

Sat, 10 May 2008 10:24:25 EDT

Man Singh: ""I don'nt know why Indians are unable to digest the opinion different from theirs."" Hmmm....and he criticizes Macaulay at the drop of a hat! Faux nationalism anyone? Get your daily dose here.

Comment by commonsense

Sat, 10 May 2008 10:20:43 EDT

Man Singh: ""I will request you to go through Sri Madghagwat Puran Skandha 1 chapter 5 shloka 23, 30 and 41 where Narad tell story of his previous life how he was born to a dalit women and engaged in serving some Brahmins. These Brahmins gave him all secret knowledge about God and bla bla clearly proving beyong doubt that Dalit exploitation is a letyr date phenomenon and definitely we should be ashamed of it."" Back to the Ruvy mode of argument. Want to prove or disprove something? Forget real societies and real institutions, pull out those holy texts or recount private converstations with God! Any more questions?? Man Singh: ""bla bla clearly proving beyong doubt that Dalit exploitation is a letyr date phenomenon"" And when nothing else works, well, blame it all on colonialism, imperialism, jehadism whatever!! Pretend we don't have any agency, no capacity for action whatsoever, except the capacity to be colonized dopes or zombies.

Comment by commonsense

Sat, 10 May 2008 10:13:54 EDT

Man Singh: ""I never found a single evidence yet to prove that before landlord system came in to existence after 713 AD untouchability never existed. landlords appointed by foreign invaders in line with greedy priests exploited not only dalits but women..."" To which, a quote from a wise person: "colonialism (and imperialism) are not being blamed, not just for their own cruelties, but conveniently enough for our own cruelties too."

Comment by commonsense

Sat, 10 May 2008 10:04:25 EDT

Ah Deepti!!! All of us have an agenda of course, but there are some for whom the agenda is pre-programmed and is not re-writable. Not even re-thoughtable. They are here to spill the pre-programmed agenda, not to engage in any dialogue with the aim of imparting and absorbing. No prizes for naming such select individuals. Any resistance to them is futile. I resist them sometimes since I enjoy it and since it is for the benefit of others whose minds are not shut down. I will try it later on Man Singh's reams of pre-digested regurgitations, but when I have some more time off from real work! Man Singh, you are absolutely right when you say that the Taj was not built by Shah Jahan. It clearly was built by the hundreds and perhaps thousands of workers. So a victory of sorts for you. Hope you sleep well, content with the intellectual and emotional victories you have scored here!

Comment by rumana husain

Sat, 10 May 2008 03:19:41 EDT

phew! took me almost an hour to go through all the comments and digest them. i dont care who built the taj, but all those nameless people who did, hats off to them. my husband and two very young children were to visit agra in 1984 but then the dreadful circumstances of october 31 happened while we were in delhi(i have written about it in my 'hits and misses' for dc)so the trip got aborted. it was after 22 years that two years ago i managed to go to agra together with my daughter who was in india for 6 months for a research project. the two of us stood there, getting our first glimpse of the magnificent architecture, and my son's words echoed in my ears...after a visit to agra with his classmates from school, a decade ago, he had come back home to karachi, pakistan, and said to us "no matter how many images of the taj you have seen in books and on film, nothing prepares you for its first-hand view. it is beyond any words!"

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Sat, 10 May 2008 01:20:44 EDT

CS...this is my last I swear!!

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Sat, 10 May 2008 01:05:20 EDT

Mr Singh, you expect me to believe Puranas that were oral traditions and you still have trouble believing that the upper castes exploited the shudras? How about the Manusmiriti? How about the caste wars that still go on in UP and Bihar? Even in Himachal while I was trekking i was told not to stop at the upcoming village since it belonged to the 'Bhangis'. So what modern upliftment are you talking about? In villages low caste children still cannot go to the same schools as the upper castes till date. And how do I know that? I hail from a village in Himachal and they are still quite proud of the fact that the entire village consists of upper castes and the Chamar village is outside. It had nothing to do with the Britishers painting hindus black we did it all my ourselves. Corrective actions? The only corrective action that can be taken is by the Dalit educated class if they don't get selfish. Upper caste efforts are merely lip service and feel good charity. Tell this to a Dalit that they will laugh you out of their village while telling you of all the wrongs done since their forefathers. Have you tried listening to their grievances? I have. I don't think you have eaten Iranian food. If you did you'd know what I am taking about. Its not the spices, its the preparation There is nothing partial here - its all or nothing. If you have a problem with Aurangzeb marg petition the government as to why you would like to have the name changed. It is still a democracy. What floods of refugee are you talking about? Bangladeshis are reduced to pulling rickshaws on daily roads. They live in worse state here than they did in their villages. Their children open to street abuse and worse still. Ask any NGO they will tell you their harrowing tales. It isn't them we have to be scared of but people like Kamal Nath and his ilk who took to the roads and burned Sikhs, raped their women and children. And btw my grandparents were based in Lahore for work and came back home first to the village and then to Delhi were they refused to stay in Rajendra Nagar since they did not consider themselves to be refugees but Indians as did others. There are stories to tell - my uncle's wife nearly got raped but he inturn was saved by Muslims while trying to cross. What we were told as children was that it had more to do with human nature and less with religion. I was ten when the 84 riots happened and saw plenty so no I am not a one track minded woman who sees bogeymen in only one quarter. And who is glorifying any rule? On the one hand there was Barbar, Shah Jahan and Aurangzeb and on the other hand there was Tipu Sultan who fought against the Britishers. I already said in my initial reply that all civilizations are built on the backs of the exploited. Even the Gupta rule came under deep scrutiny and some historians believe that it was never a golden rule and have sited various sources. I am not fuming Mr Singh I am merely explaining my point of view. As far as the question of ceding from this country arises- there are no industries in the North East, those poor souls have to leave home and live in other states where they are treated badly and whoever the jehadis are doesn't mean I am going hold the entire community responsible for the actions of those they have no control over. Naxalities again get away with their thuggery because the government doesn't care how many poor are killed. After all the government is run by the politicians who only think money not country. We have less to fear from outsiders but more from within. It isn't Shakti alone that does the work, that is the last resort since we are now a nuclear power and cannot afford to go through another nuclear flashpoint. It has to be dialog within and outside our country while all the time keeping our defenses strong and do something about our downtrodden who wouldn't give a rat's ass about the Muslim rule but want one square meal a day and get their kids educated.

Comment by Man Singh

Fri, 9 May 2008 20:33:04 EDT

Deepti #74 you are fuming. You have every right to do so. But you are jumping a step ahead of what I said in my post. I don'nt know why Indians are unable to digest the opinion different from theirs. What I should do and what I should not do is altogather different matter. First step is proper understanding of the history in right perspective. Look how I took your proposals: "Try what Mr Singh? Get a bulldozer and raze every thing to the ground barring the Harappan stones? There is no way I can fight with those who are dead and gone. It would be pure insanity. All civilizations are based on the sweat, blood and tears of the exploited." I never proposed to bulldoze Taj Deepti. It is your own imagination originated out of indigestion of my opinion about who Taj. In rest of civilisations, invaders and looters are accepted as invaders and looters. But in India `invaders' and `looters' are being glorified and that's why mahatma Gandhi marg is very close to Aurangjeb Road and no Road has been name after Guru Teg Bahadur. This is exactly my point. Right perspective of History. Who is our hero a killer Aurangjeb or Victim Saint? That's it? "Even we Hindus exploited our downtrodden. Tell me how many shudras got to visit the temples that you are so busy crying over?" Yes I do agree with you. It is matter of shame for us and a black spot on our face. I accept the truth of Dalit torture by landlords and greedy priests associated togather. I am not shying away from accepting the truth. I expect the same attitude towards killers and invaders. That's it. "Its history Mr Singh and it cannot be denied. What happened happened." I agree with you. "I have no sympathy for those who demolish buildings, cause riots, rape, pillage, genocide driven by caste, religion or race. If you expect me to begrudge history then you are expecting me to be like the Taliban and raze a muslim monument instead of the Buddha. And thats cutting my nose to spite my face since all that has happened molds me as an Indian and its my historical legacy- even the shit that happened in the past makes me understand the present better. " It is good to know that and hope you consider the Shahjahan, Gajanavi and Aurangjeb the same way and will never allow the glorification of such brutal killers and plunderers in todays time if you really hate such people in any part of history? "You are asking the wrong person to understand. Yes I am from Delhi and have witnessed riots caused by religious sentiments and social anger first hand." And that's why you can easyly visialise how our forfathers might have felt when Indian women were sold in markets of Gajani and Basra for Dirham 1 to 7. This is exactly my point Deepti. let's understand history in right perspective and stiop glorifying looters rapists and plunderes. "Also as a Delhi-ite let me tell you that most of our 'Punjabi' food habits are influenced by Mughal cooking, lots of our spoken words are Urdu and even some Farsi words trickle in, which btw I realized while watching an Iranian movie without subtexts, and the salwar Kameez that we wear is again descended from Muslim dress code." Change is part of life. Human mind adopts willingly whatever it feels better. We also did it and enrished our way of life for light coming from all sides. But it becomes altogather differnt when some creul person imposes it on you. And Mughals never brought spicies from anywhere? central Asia the origin of Mughals do not have any such food habbits. Whatever food items you mentio are purely Indian origin and Mughals has nothing to contribute. Urdu words are same as we are using English today. But for sure symbol of slavery. You like it or not and again I am not saying abandon it. I am simply putting the reality in front. "What all do you want us to give up?" Did I asked you to give up something? aap jaisi suljhi hui writer ne esi galti kaise kar di? I never asked to give up thing. I simply highlighted the reality and a fact that we are glorifying the tyrants and cruel invaders and plunderers. "In the end I have to hate my self since in the past my ancestors were complete assholes to the Dalits." I agree with you partially. I never found a single evidence yet to prove that before landlord system came in to existence after 713 AD untouchability never existed. landlords appointed by foreign invaders in line with greedy priests exploited not only dalits but women also and we definietly should be ashamed of it and I am. I will request you to go through Sri Madghagwat Puran Skandha 1 chapter 5 shloka 23, 30 and 41 where Narad tell story of his previous life how he was born to a dalit women and engaged in serving some Brahmins. These Brahmins gave him all secret knowledge about God and bla bla clearly proving beyong doubt that Dalit exploitation is a letyr date phenomenon and definitely we should be ashamed of it. Yes corrective actions are being taken. Priests are being trained nowadays even from dalit communities and ... I am not asking similar apology or corrective action from associates of thsoe plunderes and invaders. I am simply trying to highlight their misdeeds and asking not to gloryfy such cruel people. Is it too much m I asking? "Should not the Dalits then rise up and kill us the upper class even though most of us don't believe in the caste system anymore?" I am not asking anybody to rise and kill todays people. But if I glorify those creul landlords and greedy priests, definitely dalits will bad. same way when people try to gloryfy the murderes of great Gurus and plunderers of our temples and name important Roads in their names victims feel bad exactly the way dalits feel bad if somebody glorify Manu today? "Its a never ending brainless route fueled with anger by those still insecure in their own ability to rise up and they refuse to realize playing the eternal victim will not get you the respect or the 'deprived honor' that you rue about." It will end Deepti. Look at dalit case. Hindus honestly introspected and analysed the problem and took corrective action. Dalit upliftment projects are being taken up all over India laws has been passed to ensure their dignity, economic benefits are being given to them , priests are being trained from among them and unconditional apologies are being put to soothe their wounds in spite of the facts todays genberations don'nt belive in any castism or untouchability. Same way glorification of invaders killers rapists and plunderers being done under influence of Euro-Centric view of history has to be stopped and corrective actions to be taken to best of our capacity. Why not? Why Road named after Killer Aurangjeb should not named after victim Guru Teg Bahadur? "Don't whine about the past wrongs, live in the present times, get ahead and get beyond!! " Deepti what you said above is absolutely true. But those who do not take lesson from history , history repeats itself. We suffered for 1300 years and failed to learn any lesson. We suffered again in 1947 when 3 million people lost their lives along with danage of billions of dollors. Flood of Refugees from Pakistan and Bangla Desh brough a lot hardship and suffering to rest of India as well. We did not learn lesson in 1947 and continued same `glorify invaders' policy humanity suffered in kashmir and around a million people became refugees in their own country. Yes if we close our eyes now as advised by many here, whole India will bleed Deepti. Around 40% of it is bleeding currently. Jehaids, Naxals and Church Supported groups in North east India along with Raj Thakreys are causing havoc in India. It will increase if we do not learn lesson from History Deepti. Choice is ours. My views may look crude and difficult to digest by `english educated elite groups' but they are practical and have potential to save humanity from tyrants. Tyrants understand language of Shakti. I never saw Lions being sacrificed in any religion. Only weaker animals like hens, Goats and cows are sacrificed. Be ready let's see who is next?

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Fri, 9 May 2008 12:37:18 EDT

I adore MASH. I've seen the re-runs gawd knows how many times. That and Sienfeld I can see forever!!

Comment by commonsense

Fri, 9 May 2008 12:32:13 EDT

Deepti, look forward to your next piece! You wrote: ""Dudes, you two remind me of Hawkeye Pierce and BJ Honeycutt having a fight where each want the last word"" Could I be BJ Honeycutt! MASH was my favourite when I was growing up...(quite another matter that I still have all that growing up to do....)

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Fri, 9 May 2008 12:20:48 EDT

Ruvy, your visit to Taj is due;) CS, I've already moved on to writing my next post for DC and hope you'd read it ;)

Comment by Ruvy

Fri, 9 May 2008 12:17:41 EDT

To me the money lines of Deepti's fine article are these - once I feasted my eyes on the Taj my need to protest disappeared. I felt a surge of happiness sweep through my heart. This was my third visit to the Taj and it still enthralls me. I grabbed my camera and clicked away like a tourist, all the while trying not to bump into people who in turn seemed to have become even-tempered. There was no pushing at any of the entry or exit points,.... Look at Anamika's comment #7 as well. I still remember that moment of standing at the door and the first view. There is something fantastic about the Taj, something not quite real. There are beautiful buildings and works of art in the world - and everyone has their favourites - and yes the Taj is not my favourite in India either. But it is extraordinary in its beauty. And that first view is beyond words. I suspect that this is the importance of the Taj Mahal - its magnificence, if you will. It soothes the souls of those who look at it, giving them contentment. I haven't a clue why, and cannot guess at why - but there it is, backed up by the writer of the article and one of the commenters as well. Shabbat Shalom from Ma'alé Levon�, Ruvy

Comment by commonsense

Fri, 9 May 2008 12:17:15 EDT

Deepti, Now than Man Singh has picked up the baton from Ruvy, expect more sniping, but not from me! Like you, I'm on the sidelines, promise!

Comment by commonsense

Fri, 9 May 2008 12:15:10 EDT

Deepti, i totally agree. I hereby cease and desist! (small-print: some sniping and sparks do add some masaala...although I do add to the tedium quite frequently too....)

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Fri, 9 May 2008 11:59:21 EDT

Try what Mr Singh? Get a bulldozer and raze every thing to the ground barring the Harappan stones? There is no way I can fight with those who are dead and gone. It would be pure insanity. All civilizations are based on the sweat, blood and tears of the exploited. Even we Hindus exploited our downtrodden. Tell me how many shudras got to visit the temples that you are so busy crying over? Its history Mr Singh and it cannot be denied. What happened happened. I have no sympathy for those who demolish buildings, cause riots, rape, pillage, genocide driven by caste, religion or race. If you expect me to begrudge history then you are expecting me to be like the Taliban and raze a muslim monument instead of the Buddha. And thats cutting my nose to spite my face since all that has happened molds me as an Indian and its my historical legacy- even the shit that happened in the past makes me understand the present better. You are asking the wrong person to understand. Yes I am from Delhi and have witnessed riots caused by religious sentiments and social anger first hand. Also as a Delhi-ite let me tell you that most of our 'Punjabi' food habits are influenced by Mughal cooking, lots of our spoken words are Urdu and even some Farsi words trickle in, which btw I realized while watching an Iranian movie without subtexts, and the salwar Kameez that we wear is again descended from Muslim dress code. What all do you want us to give up? In the end I have to hate my self since in the past my ancestors were complete assholes to the Dalits. Should not the Dalits then rise up and kill us the upper class even though most of us don't believe in the caste system anymore? Its a never ending brainless route fueled with anger by those still insecure in their own ability to rise up and they refuse to realize playing the eternal victim will not get you the respect or the 'deprived honor' that you rue about. Don't whine about the past wrongs, live in the present times, get ahead and get beyond!!

Comment by Man Singh

Fri, 9 May 2008 11:21:32 EDT

Chalo bhai bahut ho gaya. Taj is beutiful no doubt. Its foundation and Structure and Ashatkoniya architecture is Hindus and outer cravings of Quran on marble are Islamic along with minarates of course. Hindus should learn the lessons from it how weak defence system enables invaders to claim everything theirs as theirs. I request all readers to visit Qutub Minar of Delhi and roofless structural frames in the vicinity where Kanguras (top of column) supporting beams are made of insultingly defaced Hindu Dieties. They are visible by nacked eye. A person with little sense of arts can appreicate how beutifully statues might have been made by artists of those times and hose cruel might be those who defaced them. Please bring some pictures and paste here to enlighten the readers. I can do that but as I have been branded with great names, some of readers may object. Deepti you seems to be from Delhi. Please try. These skeletons of roofless structures are hardly 20 m away from Taj. they are many and not one or two. Iron piller adjacent is of course a metallurgy miracle and a seceret even to modern scinetists how those Indians made rustless steel thousands years before advent of modern metallurgy? Desis should do research on their ancient heritage with holistic view and not with a negative eye as infilled in our minds by historians associated with imperialists and invaders. Many postings by my Indian freinds here are proof how brainwashed slaves are ready to die to defend view points of imperilaists and invaders. This is waht's called mental enslavement. Let's be free from enslavement my freidns now after 61 years of independence. rather we should be biased towards our country, our culture and our civilisational values. Why not? It has nothing to do with religion my freinds as since ancinet times we considered all ways of worship equal as per Bhagwadgeeta chapter 9/23 (ye Api anye devta..). Thousands of ways of worship have originated from india. Adding three foreign ways of worship will no way affect it at all rather will enrish it provided these follwoers of foreign ways of worship/ideologies do not behave like decendents of inavders and glorify cruel invaders only because they were followers of same way of worship? I feel this little expectation from followers of foreign ways of worship/ideologies is not too high on part of followers of Indian civilisational values.

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Fri, 9 May 2008 11:10:40 EDT

Dudes, you two remind me of Hawkeye Pierce and BJ Honeycutt having a fight where each want the last word and I know its all out war with you guys but ....suddenly I feel like the monkey between two angry rams!!;) Can there be peace? There I said my piece and I will move back to the sidelines.

Comment by commonsense

Fri, 9 May 2008 10:57:05 EDT

Ruvy: ""That comment was the last comment where I communicate with you "" wonder where i've heard that before?

Comment by Ruvy

Fri, 9 May 2008 10:17:12 EDT

Those who desire to learn something about what motivates faith (it needn't be mine, by the way) will go to the link in comment #61. Obviously, you don't. That comment was the last comment where I communicate with you as other than what your are, a mere internet troll.

Comment by commonsense

Fri, 9 May 2008 09:46:54 EDT

Ruvy: ""you repeat your garbage."" I suppose repeteadly referring to private conversations with God to validate your position, does not count as repetition in your lexicon. As in here: ""But the outcomes of that war will be determined by private conversations with G-d."" (Comment #61) Ruvy: ""At this point, you've hijacked this thread in an attempt to discredit what I say...."" You do a pretty good job of discrediting yourself. I am just a facilitator in the process. Besides, how does it feel when the shoe is on the other foot? Can you talk on any other subject besides your one-track mind about we all know what? You injected this topic here in lurid detail and all the pathos of a faux victim in response to a simple question by the good woman.

Comment by Ruvy

Fri, 9 May 2008 08:30:57 EDT

Your luck is still holding, troll. Again, the editor knocked out my comment, and again, you repeat your garbage. At this point, you've hijacked this thread in an attempt to discredit what I say, whatever it is. If this keeps up, there will be about 100 of your comments answering all the comments of mine that will have been erased.

Comment by commonsense

Fri, 9 May 2008 07:42:45 EDT

Ruvy: ""You're a lucky bastard that your personal attacks and contempt haven't been...." to which: Elbert Hubbard:"If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost, you can still call him vile names."