The Magnificence of the Taj Mahal

"your quiver
your embrace
resonates
and will live
in my heart
till time dies
the taj re-
verberates
glows and
overwhelms
but you are
love, my love
the taj is
a building"

I have trouble believing that a monument built by jehadi dacoits and their associates, a symbol of our national humiliation, is found worthy of praise on DC....ooops! sorry! my brains were momentarily hijacked by some other commentators on DC....

Yes CS #2

Jehadi dacoits simply painted the villagers old house and engraved quran on it. The monet used was also looted form same villagers.

Here is an open challenge to all world historians of the world and this challenge has been put even in BBC. Do we have intellectual honesty and courage even to start an investigation and find the truth? No. Terror of Jehadis will never allow our people even to Imagine to cross verify the facts that may expose jehadi tyraany.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A5220
This story has been challenged by Professor P.N. Oak, author of Taj Mahal: The True Story, who believes that the whole world has been duped. He claims that the Taj Mahal is not Queen Mumtaz Mahal's tomb, but an ancient Hindu temple palace of Lord Shiva (then known as Tejo Mahalaya), worshipped by the Rajputs of Agra city.

In the course of his research, Oak discovered that the Shiva temple palace had been usurped by Shah Jahan from then Maharaja of Jaipur, Jai Singh. Shah Jahan then remodelled the palace into his wife's memorial. In his own court chronicle, Badshahnama, Shah Jahan admits that an exceptionally beautiful grand mansion in Agra was taken from Jai Singh for Mumtaz's burial. The ex-Maharaja of Jaipur is said to retain in his secret collection two orders from Shah Jahan for the surrender of the Taj building.

The use of captured temples and mansions as a burial place for dead courtiers and royalty was a common practice among Muslim rulers. For example, Hamayun, Akbar, Etmud-ud-Daula and Safdarjung are all buried in such mansions.

Oak's inquiries begin with the name Taj Mahal. He says this term does not occur in any Moghul court papers or chronicles, even after Shah Jahan's time. The term 'Mahal' has never been used for a building in any of the Muslim countries, from Afghanistan to Algeria.

'The usual explanation that the term Taj Mahal derives from Mumtaz Mahal is illogical in at least two respects. Firstly, her name was never Mumtaz Mahal but Mumtaz-ul-Zamani,' he writes. 'Secondly, one cannot omit the first three letters from a woman's name to derive the remainder as the name for the building.'

Taj Mahal is, he claims, a corrupt version of Tejo-mahalaya, or the Shiva's Palace. Oak also says that the love story of Mumtaz and Shah Jahan is a fairy tale created by court sycophants, blundering historians and sloppy archaeologists. Not a single royal chronicle of Shah Jahan's time corroborates the love story.

Furthermore, Oak cites several documents suggesting that the Taj Mahal predates Shah Jahan's era:

Professor Marvin Miller of New York took samples from the riverside doorway of the Taj. Carbon dating tests revealed that the door was 300 years older than Shah Jahan.

European traveller Johan Albert Mandelslo, who visited Agra in 1638 (only seven years after Mumtaz's death), describes the life of the city in his memoirs, but makes no reference to the Taj Mahal being built.

The writings of Peter Mundy, an English visitor to Agra within a year of Mumtaz's death, also suggest that the Taj was a noteworthy building long well before Shah Jahan's time.

Oak also points out a number of design and architectural inconsistencies that support the belief that the Taj Mahal is a typical Hindu temple rather than a mausoleum.

Many rooms in the Taj Mahal have remained sealed since Shah Jahan's time, and are still inaccessible to the public. Oak asserts they contain a headless statue of Shiva and other objects commonly used for worship rituals in Hindu temples.

Fearing political backlash, Indira Gandhi's government tried to have Oak's book withdrawn from the bookstores, and threatened the Indian publisher of the first edition with dire consequences.

The only way to really validate or discredit Oak's research is to open the sealed rooms of the Taj Mahal, and allow international experts to investigate.


BTW Prof PN Oak was also a History Professor in Delhi University. His challenge remains unaccepted due to political correctness and tendency to hide the crimes of jehadis or even attempts to justify them.

I request people who say that it was built by Shah jehan including Deepti's Historian mom, please come up with evidence other then some freeak Italian travellor who wrote a folk tale and not any official version.

here Prof Oak has refered 3 travellors though in his support.

I believe that the Brigadheeshwara temple in Thanjavur to be a greater 'wonder of the world" than the white Taj Mahal and it is older by 6 centuries to the taj and has no 'questions' about who built it !

dee, someone looks really cute in one of the pics with a hankie on her head :)

can understand how at times it's not possible to take pics, even though you wish to for many obvious reasons, but thats Ok, there is always next time.

hope all of you had a good time @ the taj mahal ofcourse sans the heat and sweat.

t, lol but centuries of existence makes it more than a building;)

CS, only for a second did I wonder what happened to you till realization dawned;)

ManSingh- it is to protect the Taj from the 'jehadis' that there are security checkpoints;)And btw as far as the subject of history goes there is always debates about the validity of sources and their interpretations, its a matter of continued research and there is much bloodshed amongst intellectuals over such matters. Since I know very little on this matter I cannot make any comments about the founding of the Taj but others are most welcome to take the matter up.

Blokesblogin- it is a matter of perception and since I have yet to see the temple I cannot comment on it:)

Tanay- it was blooming hot but worth every moment.

Dee, glad you enjoyed a visit to the Taj. For years I refused to go - the bit on workers being mutilated after its construction was enough to turn me off. But then I accompanied a friend to Agra a few years ago, completely convinced that I would wait outside. For one reason or another, that got over-ruled and I went for my first visit to Taj.

I still remember that moment of standing at the door and the first view. There is something fantastic about the Taj, something not quite real. There are beautiful buildings and works of art in the world- and everyone has their favourites - and yes the Taj is not my favourite in India either. But it is extraordinary in its beauty. And that first view is beyond words.

Made me think about the workers who had built it and then been mutilated to ensure they could never build anything as beautiful again. Oddly enough, SEEING the Taj became the right tribute to their anonymous skill, craft and dedication. Have returned to it quite a few times since with friends, always explaining that horrible aspect of the Taj's beauty - somehow it seems appropriate as homage to the unnamed artists everywhere.

PS: Taj trivia: Apparently, Venetian and Florentine artisans were brought in from Europe to work on some of the stone and inlay work? Apparently these artisans worked on quite a few of the Mughal buildings. No data on whether these foreign artisans were also in that worker numbers.

MS:

""BTW Prof PN Oak was also a History Professor in Delhi University.""

Really?? According to the Ruvy standard or dacoit standard of truth?

""he was born in Indore, Madhya Pradesh. During World War II he joined the Indian National Army, which fought with the Japanese against the British. He obtained M.A and L.L.B degrees from Mumbai University. From 1947 to 1953 he was a reporter for the The Hindustan Times and The Statesman newspapers. From 1953 to 1957, he worked in India's Central Radio and Public Ministry. From 1959 to 1974, he worked at the American Embassy in New Delhi""

AND AGAIN (from his website)

""The author, P.N. Oak having made some far-reaching discoveries in history, is the founder-president of the Institute for Rewriting Indian history.... P.N. Oak was born in a Maharashtrian Brahmin Family....After obtaining his B.A. degree from Agra University and completing M.A. LL.B courses of the Bombay University, Oak worked for a year as Tutor in English at the Fergusson College Pune....From 1947 to 1974 his profession has been mainly journalism having worked on the editorial staffs of the Hindustan Times and the Statesman, as a Class I officer in the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting, Government of India, and as editor in the American Embassy's Information Service, all in New Delhi....Oak is keen to find a World Vedic Heritage University to educate the world in the primordial Vedic unity of all humanity.""

So, I guess, Ferguson College is code for Delhi University, Tutor is Code for professor and English is code for History?

Give us some more dacoit vs. villagers tota maina ki kahanees Man Singh!

Man Singh:

""Here is an open challenge to all world historians of the world and this challenge has been put even in BBC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A5220""


Another Man Singhian sleight of hand that he hoped would go unnoticed. Usually the BBC is attacked by faux nationalists, but here MS claims that "even the BBC" has raised the issue. Whatever the merits or demerits of P. N. Oak (irrelevant), the site Man Singh has provided is a wikipedia of sorts, managed by BBC and has nothing to do with the BBC in terms of content. Entries to this "h2g2" sites are written by readers and anybody can write anything. It maybe that Man Singh himself wrote it and then used it to validate his own view. Not unlike Ruvy quoting the Torah to validate the notion of God as his divine real-estate agent! Truth is indeed self-referential....

Here is how BBC itself on the "h2g2" site:

""What is h2g2?

h2g2 is an unconventional guide to life, the universe and everything, an encyclopaedic project where entries are written by people from all over the world. h2g2 was launched in April 1999, and the BBC took over the running of the site in February 2001 as part of our drive to develop new and innovative online services.

The Guide is written by visitors to the website - people like you - and already it has thousands of entries on all sorts of subjects. The result is a living, breathing guide that's constantly being updated and revised, driven forward by the very people who use it.""

So Man Singh, did you write it? If you did, it's a good piece. You could write something along the lines for DC too, instead of recycling hackneyed dacoits vs. villagers stories....

[EDITED - IRRELEVANT]

Anamika, indeed! Just the thought of the fate of the workers makes one squirm....

Anamika, while watching the movie - Bucket List there was a reference made that the Taj was built by volunteers by Morgan Freeman and before I could guffaw Jack Nicholson himself said he didn't believe the volunteer part.

As it is the Mughals were a barbaric lot.

dee:

that must be the one on atlantic city

;)

Darn, I have not a clue what I wrote in #10 that was edited as "irrelevant"! (Oops, this is irrelevant too! Oh well!)

cs:

crystal gazing

"I am off beer. I am off narcotics. I am in Betty Ford undergoing cleansing.

It is working, I tellya.

I wish to offer my profound apologies (can I say profoundest, t?) to the following persons in no particular order:

* adolf hitler and his batman
* goebbel and his batman
* princess diana
* t
* aaman
* dee
* whoever else is in the DC team
* the contributors and writers at DC
* all the interactors at DC except the followiing three: (I forget their names - sorry)
* ntlinier m'gumbeni (you don't know him - he is the doorman who has helped me out of the cab and into my apartment countless times)
* what's his name - the poet who speaks to walls?
* what's her name - she lays it out everything yet says nothing meaningful?
* there are many others - i seek forgiveness from them too

and in the end i wish to thank the members of the politburo, members of the academy and my dean."


ps: and also paro - paro who? ask madhuri

Deepti,

I'm curious; just how hot was it outside when you went to visit?

40 degrees Celsius

soon it will be 48 degrees, but trust me, it feels much more hotter (why don't they have something like the "wind-chill" factor? the "asphalt-concrete" factor? surely it is more than 50 degrees sometimes?)

Yaar Commonsense # 8

My aplology. I refered the wrong writer. It was Prof Devendra Swaroop Agrawal with whom one of my friend did his Ph D recently and not PN Oak.

My apology again for the mistake.

But real issue is not who Prof PN Oak is?

Real issue is waht he wrote.

Whayever arguments he gave to prove his points remain unchallenged till date. And people devoid of any logic to counteract his arguments come down to character assassination and diluting credibility of the person in place of giving logic against his writings.

Here also the same case. When you could not find any logic to deny Oak's theory, you started digging out lesser relevant things.

CS Truth is a very suble entity. majority is not always right. Even a street dog may have some ideas having truth in it. let's examine and discuss truthfulness of ideas and not who said it?

I myself was involved in Stress Analaysis of taj mahal from 1992-95 to inverstigate crack width propagation in main domes.

I myself have noticed that marble used around grave is exactly equal to unmarbled area at first floor proving that this marble for grave was removed from uppoer floor after jaipur King denied marble from his territories to be transported to Agra due to take over of the temple.

Now Government has put plaster of Paris on those earlier naked areas of first floor to make the cover up.

Please come up with the logic against what OAk said in place of comnfusing people by highloighting my spelling mistakes, lack of efficiency in english writing or my mistake in quoting Oak's livelihood.

Do you have anything to say against his arguments CS? or Just Big Zero?

Please come up with soem references from Mughal Courts, Contemporary Muslim writers or any other?

Other then a diary of Italian traveller based on some folk tales by tourist guides.

When people become devoid of arguments and facts they come down to highlight irrelevant things and that's what you have tried to do,

For sure you strated nonsense again after using commonsense for a while. It seems you get loose motion everytime I present some new facts.

Man Singh:

""My apology again for the mistake.

But real issue is not who Prof PN Oak is?

Real issue is waht he wrote.""

Your apology rings hollow since the real issue is that what you wrote is not true. And it was an issue that YOU brought up, not anyone else.

And you have evaded the question of the BBC claim too. The site you quote is NOT a BBC site, but a wikipedia site managed by the BBC. There is a DIFFERENCE. You can fudge all you like and introduce, as usual dacoits and villagers, but anyone reading this can see that you are, to put it mildly, being economical with the truth. Enough said!

Man Singh,

I would like you to respond to my post #9, about your tall claims about the BBC. And if you can, be honest and truthful. And if you can, for once, no dacoits and villagers please.

Rgds,

nonsense

Man Singh

I agree that there are some grey areas on who built Taj Mahal. However, the beauty of Taj Mahal or its location will not change irrespective of whether Hindus or Muslims built it.

One of the tragedies is that many of the Hindu rulers of that time were busy fighting hand in hand with the mughals.....we sold out...

Chandra: "One of the tragedies is that many of the Hindu rulers of that time were busy fighting hand in hand with the mughals.....we sold out..."

Slightly disappointed by this...does this mean the Muslim generals at Chittorgarh had also "sold out"? I love the historical cherrypicking that happens when we start talking of people in such broad terms as Hindus/Muslims etc.

Man Singh,

If you read my original post, I have nothing to say about Mr. Oak's claims as they are totally irrelevant to my life and to the many who flock to see the Taj or do not do so. So, there's no point in debating with you an issue that is a non-issue for me. Here is what I wrote:

""Whatever the merits or demerits of P. N. Oak (irrelevant), the site Man Singh has provided is a wikipedia of sorts, managed by BBC and has nothing to do with the BBC in terms of content.""

Good attempt to try and get me to discuss an issue that I have no interest in discussing. The two issues you confidently wrote about:

1. P. N. Oak at Delhi U (wrong)
2. BBC promoting his theory (wrong)

and a third one:

3. P.N. Oak's writings being suppressed by the government. Wrong too. His articles were a prominent fixture in the Illustrated Weekly of India when I was growing up.

As for Oak's claims and arguments, I have nothing to say, as the Taj is the Taj and it is not what it is not, regardless of how it came to be or came not to be.

Man Singh:

""For sure you strated nonsense again after using commonsense for a while. It seems you get loose motion everytime I present some new facts.""

In response to the above:

As the noted American writer Elbert Hubbard once noted: "If you can't answer a man's (sic!) arguments, all is not lost, you can still call him vile names."

Anamika

I dont understand your point

rgds

Visiting Taj Mahal in April-May is probably not a very good idea. I would not want to be hopping bare-foot on the scalding hot white marble floors!
I visited Agra twice, in the winters of 1998 and 2001, with my family. In 1998, we could not see much of the Taj from a distance because of dense fog. But I enjoyed the view in Dec 2001. It was really magnificent. However, the marble did look a bit yellowish and worn-out from a distance. I hope the sheen has been restored a bit in the last six years, due to the environmental protection and restoration work.

Love and peace to all,
Ayan

Apparently what Man Singh has written about the BBC supposedly weighing in on the issue, has been repeated all over the blogosphere. Here's one example:

""This is a BBC article exposing facts suppressed from the people of India by the "secular" (anti-Hindu) Governments of the Congress and Left parties....""

The point is not whether:

The BBC is the sole fount of truth or not. Of course it is not. Which news organization is? Rather, I question Man Singh's claim that the BBC ever reported the article he claims that they did. It is simply an authorless article appended to a wikipedia of sorts on a site that is managed by BBC since 2001. It is, as the site puts it:

""The Guide is written by visitors to the website - people like you - and already it has thousands of entries on all sorts of subjects. The result is a living, breathing guide that's constantly being updated and revised, driven forward by the very people who use it.""

Once again, fake credentialism (Delhi University, BBC etc) is deployed to bolster particular arguments. Is this unique to Man Singh? Of course not! But obvious liberties with the truth need to be nailed down. Not that it will make any difference to him.

As for the argument of P.N. Oak, I couldn't care less about who built it.

cS #28

Again you are beating about teh bush. In place of discussing the substance you are focussing on what ink was used, what quality of paper, which website and who is the author if some spelling mistakes english was not good and bla bla bla.

Come to the point man. Come up with evidence and arguments to counteract whatever I have produce.


Basic issue is do you have any logic to counteract the facts put forward there?

Don'nt try to hide behind color of ink, spelling mistakes author resume is wrong and website is not clear and all...

As I said even a street dog comes up with hard facts, let's analyse them and should not strat yelling heyyy these facts have come from street dogs who was dirty and useless and hence ignore them.

If shahjahan loved Mumtaj so much he could have never married after her death. he did and kept many women in his harem and hence love story related to taj mahal is real tauta maina ki kahani which a even a sinecer person like you claiming to be `commonselense' is happily promoting.

CS

Here is the link for Badshahnama page 403 Vol 1 taken from national Archives Government of India.

Which says Shah Jahan apparently admits that an exceptionally beautiful grand mansion in Agra was taken from Jai Singh for Mumtaz's burial. The ex-Maharaja of Jaipur is said to retain in his secret collection two orders from Shah Jahan for the surrender of the Taj building.The use of captured temples and mansions as a burial place for dead courtiers and royalty was a common practice among Muslim rulers. For example, Hamayun, Akbar, Etmud-ud-Daula and Safdarjung are all buried in such mansions.

http://bp0.blogger.com/_pZM00Ga7aV8/Rw74L9P9FEI/AAAAAAAAAC8/A30g1bXb8DM/s1600-h/badsha2.gif

Had Shahjahan really built the Taj Mahal as a wonder mausoleum, history would have recorded a specific date on which she was ceremoniously buried in the Taj Mahal. No such date is ever mentioned. This important missing detail decisively exposes the falsity of the Tajmahal legend.
Even the year of Mumtaz's death is unknown. It is variously speculated to be 1629, 1630, 1631 or 1632. Had she deserved a fabulous burial, as is claimed, the date of her death had not been a matter of much speculation. In an harem teeming with 5000 women it was difficult to keep track of dates of death. Apparently the date of Mumtaz's death was so insignificant an event, as not to merit any special notice. Who would then build a Taj for her burial?

Nice piece Deepti.

Yeah the workers bit always made me shudder. Taj always conjures up Saahir's poem in my mind:)

ye chamanzaar ye jamunaa kaa kinaaraa ye mahal
ye munaqqash dar-o-diivaar, ye mehraab ye taaq
ik shahanshaah ne daulat kaa sahaaraa le kar
ham ghariiboN kii muhabbat kaa uRaayaa hai mazaaq

mere mahbuub kahiiN aur milaa kar mujh se

(shoddy translation)
this garden at the banks of the Yamuna, this palace
these ornate walls, the pedestals and the arch
an emperor has used his affluence to mock us

let's meet some place else, my love

Man Singh:

""Come to the point man. Come up with evidence and arguments to counteract whatever I have produce.""

The point: it is irrelevant to me who built it. It is relevant to you, fine. But you were wrong on the three counts I enumerated. End of discussion.

Man Singh:

In case you missed it, here is what i wrote. So, please try to argue with others who are prepared to argue with you:

""As for Oak's claims and arguments, I have nothing to say, as the Taj is the Taj and it is not what it is not, regardless of how it came to be or came not to be."""

The fact is that it is there and some people like it. Good luck for trying to prove who built it and who did not.

CS# 33

Its fine. But if Shahjahan's name comes as its builder by somebody , others also have right to give their opinion and if opinion is supported by rational arguments, I always welcome them.

Your statement simply leads to `History' should not be discussed. world is what world it, structures are what strucres are why to bother whoshaped them and/or created them? is it?

Keep the minds closed and be happy. Isn'nt it?

CS# 33

Its fine. But if Shahjahan's name comes as its builder by somebody , others also have right to give their opinion and if opinion is supported by rational arguments, I always welcome them.

Your statement simply leads to `History' should not be discussed. world is what world it, structures are what strucres are why to bother whoshaped them and/or created them? is it?

Keep the minds closed and be happy. Isn'nt it?

Ab ki baar kuchh bure phans gaye ho bhai. Nikalne ke liye `nonsense' arguments ki help leni pad rahi hai.

Man Singh:

""But if Shahjahan's name comes as its builder by somebody, others also have right to give their opinion...""

For the record, yet again, you are wrong, although I am sure you will find a way to explain it away. NOBODY but nobody, and certainly not the article by Deepti or any of the commentators brought up Shahjahan's name except you. You were the one who brought up his name. A simple empirical test: scroll up and check for youself. There are facts and then there are MANgled facts. There is an empirical record and there are fantasies and wishful thinking.

"#2
commonsense
May 3, 2008
05:31 PMI have trouble believing that a monument built by jehadi dacoits and their associates, a symbol of our national humiliation, is found worthy of praise on DC"

Yes Bhai CS and evaluate your own statement in #36 if builders name kisne uchhala? and there is nothing wrong in it.

This forum is for sharing our views and not to ridicule others by being sarcastic when exhausted of any logic.

I expected a person like you to come up with some solid refernce to counteract `Badshahnaama' but you came down to finding fault with who PN Oak was or BBC contained some unnamed posting and bla bla bla in place of focussing on `contents and logic' given by Oak.

That's what I told you have switched over to `nonsense' againt as person with commonsense will go by the `moral of the story' and not by 'wordings' of the story.

I still fail to see Shahjahan's name in the above quote from me. It was a bait lobbed at you and I had no doubt you'd jump at it. That streak of impudence in me refuses to die.

And as far as arguments go, below is a great, quotable quote from you:

Man Singh:

""If shahjahan loved Mumtaj so much he could have never married after her death. he did and kept many women in his harem ""

Amen

I give up and you win! Congratulations!!!

CS Bhai

again you focusisng on `wordings' of the story and not on the moral of the story.

You message # 2 started the whole issue who built it. "that a monument built by jehadi dacoits and their associates" are exact words seen in your name.

And that jehadi you are refering here is known as Shahjahan by general public who is fed with lies of Love Story (real Tauta maina love story) that this man built it for his beloved wife Mumtaj Zamani in spite of the fact that a harem of 5000 women was mainteined by him and nobody hardly kept record which wife in harem died on whcih date.

But only out of terror of Jehadis , government after government keep mum on this issue only because of political sensitive nature of the issue.

This is exactly my point. Only to hide crimes of jehadis, `truth' is being made as scapegoat. And lies are being fed to generations after generations.

Ridiculing or sarcasm will not help.
Pleas come up with `evidence' that to prove your point and refute mine or at least some logical argument to support what you stand by.

Gangs of Mao marx macauley and jehaids of course try their level best to discredit everything eblonging to Pre islamic India as this discrediting and demonising ancinet culture gives them a justification for their association to ideology of invaders.

Please provide evidence of Shahjahan being a jehadi. ..given that most kings - Hindu AND Muslim - in this period had multiple wives and inmates of the harem, this fact alone does not prove that Shahjahan was a jehadi.

cs and ana:

"bhai bhai singh" dreams in b&w and desperately seeks outlet for his fringe and far out connections of imaginary and real dots

(and is desperate for you to add "colour")

say hello to him from me

;)

Man Singh: 1

""Please....at least some logical argument to support what you stand by.""

and Man Singh 2:

""If shahjahan loved Mumtaj so much he could have never married after her death. he did and kept many women in his harem ""

So, how's that for logical arguments? Should we all sink to the lowest common ruvy denominator when it comes to logic?

Man Singh:

""Pleas come up with `evidence' that to prove your point and refute mine""

There are some claims that cannot be refuted decisively. But this does not mean that the default position is that they are true:

Example: Ruvy's claim that his God promised some land to a the chosen people.

This claim cannot be empirically refuted, even though it is logically absurd. Any attempt to refute this is the same as a dog trying to catch its own tail. Solution? Well deserved sarcasm and ridicule.

Examples of claims that can be and have been refuted:

1. P. N. Oak was a professor of history at Delhi University. (You apologized for this and then introduced another irrelevant person, Devendra Agrwal who never wrote on the Taj)

2. Your claim that the BBC reported on Oak's claim. Refuted. And you have not responded, since you have nothing to say.

Claims that cannot be refuted, but this does not mean they are true. They are patently absurd:

Man Singh:

""If shahjahan loved Mumtaj so much he could have never married after her death. he did and kept many women in his harem ""

again you are beating about the bush and focussing on irrelevant cosmetic things like where I made spelling mistakes , where I used different color, my font was not appropriate and mistook delhi Univ professor in refering the people.

Focus on subject and its content. The logics , arguments and above all Badshahnaama ?

Ab yaar koi logic or evidence to hai nahi tumhare paas. Chalo rest karo and never say in future that invading jehadis built taj mahal unless you have some concerete evidence to support your point.

remember a man keeping 5000 women in his harem can'ny build taj mahal for his dead wife as he deosn'nt know which wife is dying on which date.

Chalo jyada kheenchunga to toot jayegi.

Please rest for while and come up with logic. Dun focus on irrelevant items as who wrote this and which website kept it.

Assume it is me saying all these things. A commoner no Oak or BBC.

Now prove these evidence wrong my freinds.

Assume a street dog is giving these arguments and not Oak or BBc and then refute these evidences and logics by your logics and evidneces.

Forget Oak or BBc CS and come up with ideals relevant to the topic.

cs (only)

exhibit A:The Magnificence of the Taj Mahal

exhibit B: Forget Oak or BBc CS and come up with ideals relevant to the topic.

QED

Yep temporal! Veer off topic first and then ask others to focus on the new topic at hand!

Man Singh:

""Focus on subject and its content. The logics , arguments and above all Badshahnaama ?""

This is NOT the topic of Deept's write-up. It is not "who built the Taj?"; quite plainly, it is "The Magnificence of the Taj"

Man Singh:
""Chalo rest karo and never say in future that invading jehadis built taj mahal unless you have some concerete evidence to support your point.""

Jest, sarcasm, irony, pangey lena, baiting....ring a bell?

Maan gayey man singh! You win this round of argument too! A certificate to this effect is on its way....

Man Singh:
""remember a man keeping 5000 women in his harem can'ny build taj mahal for his dead wife""

I will try my best to remember this dictum. Can I have your permission to deploy this logic when, like you I run out of logic?

Nu, Aaman?

A woman writes an article about visiting a magnificent building, one that is arguably one of the wonders of the world, on a terribly hot day - and the comments degenerate into what we see above.

I wonder what I would see if I submitted my story about how my cat caught his first mouse?

Ruvy:

""and the comments degenerate into what we see above.""

tsk, tsk, them incorrigibly degenerate desis....what to do??

Bhai CS hum hi chhote baap ke ban jaate hai.

Chalo Taaj ki beauty appreicate karte hai.

Soory guys.

However I'll for sure would like to share soem facts about structural aspects of Taj.

1. It is a double domocal strcuture ie Dome you see outside is not what you see inside.

2. Outer Top Main dome dome is composed of three different shells. Conical, shperical and then Cylinderical.

3. Wall thickness of shells varies from 3.5 m to 5 m
4. Marble is merely finishing of Taj. It is amde of stone masonry though as structural members.

5. Whole strcuture is resting on 25 m deep masonry platform and water table of yamuna has never gone above this level till date.

6. This masonry plinth is resting of well type of Timber foundations susally used for large bridge piers.

7. Cracks visible with naked eyes have released stress and made it more stable.

so no worries , its safe an sound at least for next 100 years even if whole marble is vanished by mathura refinery pollution structurally it will remain safe.

Sorry again to show you cracks in magnificent wonder of teh world.

Ayan, the Taj looks blinding white during hot afternoons but the marble has suffered a lot due to time and pollution-its become yellow and quite dark.

Visitors needn't take off their shoes since shoe covers are provided while visiting the Taj.

PH, in many ways its just a head stone we trample over;)

Ruvy, I was wondering whether the Western Wall is enthusiastically visited during the hot summer months?

Temporal #45:

Get it (after a time lag of two days!!). Yes, I must rein in my compulsive impishness....

Deepti,

The Western Wall is visited enthusiastically all year round, including the summer. Temps rarely reach higher than 38 Centigrade in Jerusalem, even in the summer, though it can be murderously hot in the Judean sun. This is the holiest site in Judaism presently accessible to us, and nothing keeps Jews away after 60 generations of exile.

When I still lived in Jerusalem, I preferred to walk to the Western Wall on the Sabbath, knowing that the normal round of beggars and other hustlers would not be lounging round and I could concentrate on prayers from my heart.

There is a qualitative difference in visiting the Western Wall on a hot summer's Sabbath day - you have to walk. So, it's best to start out at 05:00 when it is still dark and cool and recite Dawn Prayers upon reaching the Wall.

I would love to be able to ascend the Temple Mount and pray for the souls of my parents there without Waqf thugs coming over to shut me up, but hehár habáyit LO b'yadénu - the Temple Mount is NOT in our hands.

One day, hopefully in my own lifetime, I'll see G-d's House of Splendor rebuilt there. Hope is fragile, but hard to kill. I don't think either my mother or father or my father's father ever imagined that they would see the day that we would again rule over our own homeland. But they all lived to see the flag of the foreigner lowered and the Shield of David fluttering over this country.

And I just got back from a barbecue celebrating the 60th anniversary of the re-establishment of a Jewish entity in Eretz Yisrael. Our presence here, our children's presence here, the presence of all of us Jews in Israel, is the fulfillment of tens of generations of tearful prayer, uttered in silence.

From the text of the amidá, recited three times daily:

Let the great trumpet of liberation be sounded, let the banner be raised for the gathering of our exiles, and bring us together from the four corners of the earth. Blessèd are You the Eternal, Who collects together the outcasts of His people, Israel.
......
And Jerusalem, Your city, in mercy return and dwell therein as You have said. Rebuild her speedily, in our days, and the throne of David repair within her. Blessèd are You the Eternal, Who builds Jerusalem.

Ruvy, why do beggars stay away during Sabbath? I know its a holy time when people pray, reflect and don't work but as such amongst Hindus its considered to be a good deed to give alms during auspicious days.

...why do beggars stay away during Sabbath?....amongst Hindus it's considered to be a good deed to give alms during auspicious days.

Good point, Deepti. It is considered very important to give charity during auspicious days, and we are no different from Hindus this way. But it is forbidden to a Jew to handle money (or any documents relating in any way to business) on the Sabbath, and the beggars seek money. Given that there is none to be had on a Sabbath day, they are not out seeking any.

Today was a civil holiday, not a religious one, and thousands of Jews went to the Western Wall to recite hallél, a prayer of thanksgiving (it is from this prayer that Christians get the phrase "hallelujah" - praise the Lord). And you can bet your last rupee that the beggars were out in force....

see, I can restrain myself when I want to....

(why don't they have something like the "wind-chill" factor? the "asphalt-concrete" factor? surely it is more than 50 degrees sometimes?)

And you can make intelligent observations also, when you want to....

Ruvy:

""But they all lived to see the flag of the foreigner lowered and the Shield of David fluttering over this country.""

Amen. Now if only the borders of "this country" could be defined without recourse to private conversations with G-d.

Temporal and other editors: sorry, but I am a bit too old to be polite!

Ruvy:

""I would love to be able to ascend the Temple Mount and pray for the souls of my parents there without Waqf thugs coming over to shut me up, but hehár habáyit LO b'yadénu - the Temple Mount is NOT in our hands.""

Tough luck! Better luck in your next life!

Ruvvy:

""(why don't they have something like the "wind-chill" factor? the "asphalt-concrete" factor? surely it is more than 50 degrees sometimes?)

And you can make intelligent observations also, when you want to....""

I try. Mostly it is hit and miss....(4 dots, right?)

Ruvy:

""Let the great trumpet of liberation be sounded, let the banner be raised for the gathering of our exiles, and bring us together from the four corners of the earth. Blessèd are You the Eternal, Who collects together the outcasts of His people, Israel.""

AKA ethnic cleansing
......

Now if only the borders of "this country" could be defined without recourse to private conversations with G-d.

Not to worry, CS. The borders of this Land will be determined by war - terrible war. But the outcomes of that war will be determined by private conversations with G-d.

If you go to the link above, the following Psalm will be help in understanding what you've read.

Psalm 124

A song of ascents, by David. Had not HASHEM been with us - let Israel declare it now! Had not HASHEM been with us when men rose up against us, then they would have swallowed us alive, when their anger was kindled against us. Then the waters would have inundated us; the current would have surged across our soul. Then they would have surged across our soul - the treacherous waters. Blessèd is HASHEM, Who did not present us a prey for their teeth. Our soul escaped like a bird from the hunter's snare; the snare broke and we escaped. Our Help is through the Name of HASHEM, Maker of heaven and earth.

@comment 60

AKA ethnic cleansing....

You demean yourself by mocking the prayers that the grandparents and great-grandparents of your Jewish wife said three times daily. Your comments reflect badly on you, not on the millions of us who recite this prayer daily.

Ruvy:

""A woman writes an article about visiting a magnificent building, one that is arguably one of the wonders of the world, on a terribly hot day - and the comments degenerate into what we see above.""

And later, the same woman asks a simple question:

""Ruvy, why do beggars stay away during Sabbath? I know its a holy time when people pray, reflect and don't work but as such amongst Hindus its considered to be a good deed to give alms during auspicious days.""

And in exchange, what we get is # 52, including of course code words such as:

""but hehár habáyit LO b'yadénu - the Temple Mount is NOT in our hands.""


Those who live in glass-houses should change their clothes in the basement....

Ruvy # 63,

He gets better by the day! Hats off to him! Once again, a piece on the Taj has been successfully converted int a converstation about, you guess what!!

I meant, an innocent question by the same good woman:

""Ruvy, I was wondering whether the Western Wall is enthusiastically visited during the hot summer months?""

unleashes a torrent of, we all know what, including the clincher:

""....the Temple Mount is NOT in our hands.

One day, hopefully in my own lifetime, I'll see G-d's House of Splendor rebuilt there.""

Ruvy:

""....the Temple Mount is NOT in our hands.

One day, hopefully in my own lifetime, I'll see G-d's House of Splendor rebuilt there.""

No prizes for guessing what kind of cleansing will be the necessary condition for this act.

Ruvy:

""You're a lucky bastard that your personal attacks and contempt haven't been...."

to which:

Elbert Hubbard:"If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost, you can still call him vile names."

Your luck is still holding, troll. Again, the editor knocked out my comment, and again, you repeat your garbage. At this point, you've hijacked this thread in an attempt to discredit what I say, whatever it is. If this keeps up, there will be about 100 of your comments answering all the comments of mine that will have been erased.

Ruvy:

""you repeat your garbage.""

I suppose repeteadly referring to private conversations with God to validate your position, does not count as repetition in your lexicon. As in here:

""But the outcomes of that war will be determined by private conversations with G-d."" (Comment #61)

Ruvy:

""At this point, you've hijacked this thread in an attempt to discredit what I say....""

You do a pretty good job of discrediting yourself. I am just a facilitator in the process. Besides, how does it feel when the shoe is on the other foot? Can you talk on any other subject besides your one-track mind about we all know what? You injected this topic here in lurid detail and all the pathos of a faux victim in response to a simple question by the good woman.

Those who desire to learn something about what motivates faith (it needn't be mine, by the way) will go to the link in comment #61. Obviously, you don't. That comment was the last comment where I communicate with you as other than what your are, a mere internet troll.

Ruvy:

""That comment was the last comment where I communicate with you ""

wonder where i've heard that before?

Dudes, you two remind me of Hawkeye Pierce and BJ Honeycutt having a fight where each want the last word and I know its all out war with you guys but ....suddenly I feel like the monkey between two angry rams!!;)

Can there be peace? There I said my piece and I will move back to the sidelines.

Chalo bhai bahut ho gaya.

Taj is beutiful no doubt.
Its foundation and Structure and Ashatkoniya architecture is Hindus and outer cravings of Quran on marble are Islamic along with minarates of course.

Hindus should learn the lessons from it how weak defence system enables invaders to claim everything theirs as theirs.

I request all readers to visit Qutub Minar of Delhi and roofless structural frames in the vicinity where Kanguras (top of column) supporting beams are made of insultingly defaced Hindu Dieties. They are visible by nacked eye.

A person with little sense of arts can appreicate how beutifully statues might have been made by artists of those times and hose cruel might be those who defaced them.

Please bring some pictures and paste here to enlighten the readers. I can do that but as I have been branded with great names, some of readers may object.

Deepti you seems to be from Delhi. Please try.

These skeletons of roofless structures are hardly 20 m away from Taj. they are many and not one or two.

Iron piller adjacent is of course a metallurgy miracle and a seceret even to modern scinetists how those Indians made rustless steel thousands years before advent of modern metallurgy?

Desis should do research on their ancient heritage with holistic view and not with a negative eye as infilled in our minds by historians associated with imperialists and invaders.

Many postings by my Indian freinds here are proof how brainwashed slaves are ready to die to defend view points of imperilaists and invaders. This is waht's called mental enslavement.

Let's be free from enslavement my freidns now after 61 years of independence. rather we should be biased towards our country, our culture and our civilisational values. Why not?

It has nothing to do with religion my freinds as since ancinet times we considered all ways of worship equal as per Bhagwadgeeta chapter 9/23 (ye Api anye devta..). Thousands of ways of worship have originated from india. Adding three foreign ways of worship will no way affect it at all rather will enrish it provided these follwoers of foreign ways of worship/ideologies do not behave like decendents of inavders and glorify cruel invaders only because they were followers of same way of worship?

I feel this little expectation from followers of foreign ways of worship/ideologies is not too high on part of followers of Indian civilisational values.

Try what Mr Singh? Get a bulldozer and raze every thing to the ground barring the Harappan stones? There is no way I can fight with those who are dead and gone. It would be pure insanity. All civilizations are based on the sweat, blood and tears of the exploited.

Even we Hindus exploited our downtrodden. Tell me how many shudras got to visit the temples that you are so busy crying over?

Its history Mr Singh and it cannot be denied. What happened happened.

I have no sympathy for those who demolish buildings, cause riots, rape, pillage, genocide driven by caste, religion or race. If you expect me to begrudge history then you are expecting me to be like the Taliban and raze a muslim monument instead of the Buddha. And thats cutting my nose to spite my face since all that has happened molds me as an Indian and its my historical legacy- even the shit that happened in the past makes me understand the present better.

You are asking the wrong person to understand. Yes I am from Delhi and have witnessed riots caused by religious sentiments and social anger first hand.

Also as a Delhi-ite let me tell you that most of our 'Punjabi' food habits are influenced by Mughal cooking, lots of our spoken words are Urdu and even some Farsi words trickle in, which btw I realized while watching an Iranian movie without subtexts, and the salwar Kameez that we wear is again descended from Muslim dress code.

What all do you want us to give up? In the end I have to hate my self since in the past my ancestors were complete assholes to the Dalits.

Should not the Dalits then rise up and kill us the upper class even though most of us don't believe in the caste system anymore?

Its a never ending brainless route fueled with anger by those still insecure in their own ability to rise up and they refuse to realize playing the eternal victim will not get you the respect or the 'deprived honor' that you rue about.

Don't whine about the past wrongs, live in the present times, get ahead and get beyond!!

Deepti, i totally agree. I hereby cease and desist!

(small-print: some sniping and sparks do add some masaala...although I do add to the tedium quite frequently too....)

Deepti,

Now than Man Singh has picked up the baton from Ruvy, expect more sniping, but not from me! Like you, I'm on the sidelines, promise!

To me the money lines of Deepti's fine article are these - once I feasted my eyes on the Taj my need to protest disappeared.

I felt a surge of happiness sweep through my heart. This was my third visit to the Taj and it still enthralls me. I grabbed my camera and clicked away like a tourist, all the while trying not to bump into people who in turn seemed to have become even-tempered.

There was no pushing at any of the entry or exit points,....

Look at Anamika's comment #7 as well.

I still remember that moment of standing at the door and the first view. There is something fantastic about the Taj, something not quite real. There are beautiful buildings and works of art in the world - and everyone has their favourites - and yes the Taj is not my favourite in India either. But it is extraordinary in its beauty. And that first view is beyond words.

I suspect that this is the importance of the Taj Mahal - its magnificence, if you will. It soothes the souls of those who look at it, giving them contentment.

I haven't a clue why, and cannot guess at why - but there it is, backed up by the writer of the article and one of the commenters as well.

Shabbat Shalom from Ma'alé Levoná,
Ruvy

Ruvy, your visit to Taj is due;)

CS, I've already moved on to writing my next post for DC and hope you'd read it ;)

Deepti, look forward to your next piece!

You wrote:

""Dudes, you two remind me of Hawkeye Pierce and BJ Honeycutt having a fight where each want the last word""

Could I be BJ Honeycutt! MASH was my favourite when I was growing up...(quite another matter that I still have all that growing up to do....)

I adore MASH. I've seen the re-runs gawd knows how many times. That and Sienfeld I can see forever!!

Deepti #74 you are fuming. You have every right to do so.

But you are jumping a step ahead of what I said in my post. I don'nt know why Indians are unable to digest the opinion different from theirs.

What I should do and what I should not do is altogather different matter. First step is proper understanding of the history in right perspective.

Look how I took your proposals:
"Try what Mr Singh? Get a bulldozer and raze every thing to the ground barring the Harappan stones? There is no way I can fight with those who are dead and gone. It would be pure insanity. All civilizations are based on the sweat, blood and tears of the exploited."

I never proposed to bulldoze Taj Deepti. It is your own imagination originated out of indigestion of my opinion about who Taj.
In rest of civilisations, invaders and looters are accepted as invaders and looters. But in India `invaders' and `looters' are being glorified and that's why mahatma Gandhi marg is very close to Aurangjeb Road and no Road has been name after Guru Teg Bahadur.

This is exactly my point. Right perspective of History. Who is our hero a killer Aurangjeb or Victim Saint? That's it?


"Even we Hindus exploited our downtrodden. Tell me how many shudras got to visit the temples that you are so busy crying over?"

Yes I do agree with you. It is matter of shame for us and a black spot on our face. I accept the truth of Dalit torture by landlords and greedy priests associated togather. I am not shying away from accepting the truth. I expect the same attitude towards killers and invaders. That's it.

"Its history Mr Singh and it cannot be denied. What happened happened."

I agree with you.


"I have no sympathy for those who demolish buildings, cause riots, rape, pillage, genocide driven by caste, religion or race. If you expect me to begrudge history then you are expecting me to be like the Taliban and raze a muslim monument instead of the Buddha. And thats cutting my nose to spite my face since all that has happened molds me as an Indian and its my historical legacy- even the shit that happened in the past makes me understand the present better. "

It is good to know that and hope you consider the Shahjahan, Gajanavi and Aurangjeb the same way and will never allow the glorification of such brutal killers and plunderers in todays time if you really hate such people in any part of history?



"You are asking the wrong person to understand. Yes I am from Delhi and have witnessed riots caused by religious sentiments and social anger first hand."

And that's why you can easyly visialise how our forfathers might have felt when Indian women were sold in markets of Gajani and Basra for Dirham 1 to 7. This is exactly my point Deepti. let's understand history in right perspective and stiop glorifying looters rapists and plunderes.

"Also as a Delhi-ite let me tell you that most of our 'Punjabi' food habits are influenced by Mughal cooking, lots of our spoken words are Urdu and even some Farsi words trickle in, which btw I realized while watching an Iranian movie without subtexts, and the salwar Kameez that we wear is again descended from Muslim dress code."

Change is part of life. Human mind adopts willingly whatever it feels better. We also did it and enrished our way of life for light coming from all sides.

But it becomes altogather differnt when some creul person imposes it on you. And Mughals never brought spicies from anywhere? central Asia the origin of Mughals do not have any such food habbits. Whatever food items you mentio are purely Indian origin and Mughals has nothing to contribute. Urdu words are same as we are using English today. But for sure symbol of slavery. You like it or not and again I am not saying abandon it. I am simply putting the reality in front.



"What all do you want us to give up?"
Did I asked you to give up something? aap jaisi suljhi hui writer ne esi galti kaise kar di? I never asked to give up thing. I simply highlighted the reality and a fact that we are glorifying the tyrants and cruel invaders and plunderers.

"In the end I have to hate my self since in the past my ancestors were complete assholes to the Dalits."

I agree with you partially. I never found a single evidence yet to prove that before landlord system came in to existence after 713 AD untouchability never existed. landlords appointed by foreign invaders in line with greedy priests exploited not only dalits but women also and we definietly should be ashamed of it and I am.

I will request you to go through Sri Madghagwat Puran Skandha 1 chapter 5 shloka 23, 30 and 41 where Narad tell story of his previous life how he was born to a dalit women and engaged in serving some Brahmins. These Brahmins gave him all secret knowledge about God and bla bla clearly proving beyong doubt that Dalit exploitation is a letyr date phenomenon and definitely we should be ashamed of it.

Yes corrective actions are being taken. Priests are being trained nowadays even from dalit communities and ...

I am not asking similar apology or corrective action from associates of thsoe plunderes and invaders. I am simply trying to highlight their misdeeds and asking not to gloryfy such cruel people. Is it too much m I asking?

"Should not the Dalits then rise up and kill us the upper class even though most of us don't believe in the caste system anymore?"

I am not asking anybody to rise and kill todays people. But if I glorify those creul landlords and greedy priests, definitely dalits will bad.
same way when people try to gloryfy the murderes of great Gurus and plunderers of our temples and name important Roads in their names victims feel bad exactly the way dalits feel bad if somebody glorify Manu today?

"Its a never ending brainless route fueled with anger by those still insecure in their own ability to rise up and they refuse to realize playing the eternal victim will not get you the respect or the 'deprived honor' that you rue about."

It will end Deepti. Look at dalit case. Hindus honestly introspected and analysed the problem and took corrective action. Dalit upliftment projects are being taken up all over India laws has been passed to ensure their dignity, economic benefits are being given to them , priests are being trained from among them and unconditional apologies are being put to soothe their wounds in spite of the facts todays genberations don'nt belive in any castism or untouchability.

Same way glorification of invaders killers rapists and plunderers being done under influence of Euro-Centric view of history has to be stopped and corrective actions to be taken to best of our capacity. Why not?

Why Road named after Killer Aurangjeb should not named after victim Guru Teg Bahadur?

"Don't whine about the past wrongs, live in the present times, get ahead and get beyond!! "

Deepti what you said above is absolutely true. But those who do not take lesson from history , history repeats itself.
We suffered for 1300 years and failed to learn any lesson. We suffered again in 1947 when 3 million people lost their lives along with danage of billions of dollors. Flood of Refugees from Pakistan and Bangla Desh brough a lot hardship and suffering to rest of India as well.

We did not learn lesson in 1947 and continued same `glorify invaders' policy humanity suffered in kashmir and around a million people became refugees in their own country.

Yes if we close our eyes now as advised by many here, whole India will bleed Deepti. Around 40% of it is bleeding currently. Jehaids, Naxals and Church Supported groups in North east India along with Raj Thakreys are causing havoc in India.

It will increase if we do not learn lesson from History Deepti. Choice is ours.

My views may look crude and difficult to digest by `english educated elite groups' but they are practical and have potential to save humanity from tyrants.

Tyrants understand language of Shakti. I never saw Lions being sacrificed in any religion. Only weaker animals like hens, Goats and cows are sacrificed. Be ready let's see who is next?

Mr Singh, you expect me to believe Puranas that were oral traditions and you still have trouble believing that the upper castes exploited the shudras?

How about the Manusmiriti? How about the caste wars that still go on in UP and Bihar? Even in Himachal while I was trekking i was told not to stop at the upcoming village since it belonged to the 'Bhangis'. So what modern upliftment are you talking about? In villages low caste children still cannot go to the same schools as the upper castes till date. And how do I know that? I hail from a village in Himachal and they are still quite proud of the fact that the entire village consists of upper castes and the Chamar village is outside.

It had nothing to do with the Britishers painting hindus black we did it all my ourselves.

Corrective actions? The only corrective action that can be taken is by the Dalit educated class if they don't get selfish. Upper caste efforts are merely lip service and feel good charity.

Tell this to a Dalit that they will laugh you out of their village while telling you of all the wrongs done since their forefathers. Have you tried listening to their grievances? I have.

I don't think you have eaten Iranian food. If you did you'd know what I am taking about. Its not the spices, its the preparation

There is nothing partial here - its all or nothing.

If you have a problem with Aurangzeb marg petition the government as to why you would like to have the name changed. It is still a democracy.

What floods of refugee are you talking about? Bangladeshis are reduced to pulling rickshaws on daily roads. They live in worse state here than they did in their villages. Their children open to street abuse and worse still. Ask any NGO they will tell you their harrowing tales. It isn't them we have to be scared of but people like Kamal Nath and his ilk who took to the roads and burned Sikhs, raped their women and children.

And btw my grandparents were based in Lahore for work and came back home first to the village and then to Delhi were they refused to stay in Rajendra Nagar since they did not consider themselves to be refugees but Indians as did others. There are stories to tell - my uncle's wife nearly got raped but he inturn was saved by Muslims while trying to cross. What we were told as children was that it had more to do with human nature and less with religion.

I was ten when the 84 riots happened and saw plenty so no I am not a one track minded woman who sees bogeymen in only one quarter.

And who is glorifying any rule? On the one hand there was Barbar, Shah Jahan and Aurangzeb and on the other hand there was Tipu Sultan who fought against the Britishers.

I already said in my initial reply that all civilizations are built on the backs of the exploited. Even the Gupta rule came under deep scrutiny and some historians believe that it was never a golden rule and have sited various sources.

I am not fuming Mr Singh I am merely explaining my point of view.

As far as the question of ceding from this country arises- there are no industries in the North East, those poor souls have to leave home and live in other states where they are treated badly and whoever the jehadis are doesn't mean I am going hold the entire community responsible for the actions of those they have no control over.

Naxalities again get away with their thuggery because the government doesn't care how many poor are killed. After all the government is run by the politicians who only think money not country.

We have less to fear from outsiders but more from within. It isn't Shakti alone that does the work, that is the last resort since we are now a nuclear power and cannot afford to go through another nuclear flashpoint.

It has to be dialog within and outside our country while all the time keeping our defenses strong and do something about our downtrodden who wouldn't give a rat's ass about the Muslim rule but want one square meal a day and get their kids educated.

CS...this is my last I swear!!

phew!
took me almost an hour to go through all the comments and digest them.
i dont care who built the taj, but all those nameless people who did, hats off to them.
my husband and two very young children were to visit agra in 1984 but then the dreadful circumstances of october 31 happened while we were in delhi(i have written about it in my 'hits and misses' for dc)so the trip got aborted. it was after 22 years that two years ago i managed to go to agra together with my daughter who was in india for 6 months for a research project.
the two of us stood there, getting our first glimpse of the magnificent architecture, and my son's words echoed in my ears...after a visit to agra with his classmates from school, a decade ago, he had come back home to karachi, pakistan, and said to us "no matter how many images of the taj you have seen in books and on film, nothing prepares you for its first-hand view. it is beyond any words!"

Ah Deepti!!! All of us have an agenda of course, but there are some for whom the agenda is pre-programmed and is not re-writable. Not even re-thoughtable. They are here to spill the pre-programmed agenda, not to engage in any dialogue with the aim of imparting and absorbing. No prizes for naming such select individuals. Any resistance to them is futile. I resist them sometimes since I enjoy it and since it is for the benefit of others whose minds are not shut down. I will try it later on Man Singh's reams of pre-digested regurgitations, but when I have some more time off from real work!

Man Singh, you are absolutely right when you say that the Taj was not built by Shah Jahan. It clearly was built by the hundreds and perhaps thousands of workers. So a victory of sorts for you. Hope you sleep well, content with the intellectual and emotional victories you have scored here!

Man Singh:

""I never found a single evidence yet to prove that before landlord system came in to existence after 713 AD untouchability never existed. landlords appointed by foreign invaders in line with greedy priests exploited not only dalits but women...""

To which, a quote from a wise person:

"colonialism (and imperialism) are not being blamed, not just for their own cruelties, but conveniently enough for our own cruelties too."

Man Singh:

""I will request you to go through Sri Madghagwat Puran Skandha 1 chapter 5 shloka 23, 30 and 41 where Narad tell story of his previous life how he was born to a dalit women and engaged in serving some Brahmins. These Brahmins gave him all secret knowledge about God and bla bla clearly proving beyong doubt that Dalit exploitation is a letyr date phenomenon and definitely we should be ashamed of it.""

Back to the Ruvy mode of argument. Want to prove or disprove something? Forget real societies and real institutions, pull out those holy texts or recount private converstations with God! Any more questions??

Man Singh:

""bla bla clearly proving beyong doubt that Dalit exploitation is a letyr date phenomenon""

And when nothing else works, well, blame it all on colonialism, imperialism, jehadism whatever!! Pretend we don't have any agency, no capacity for action whatsoever, except the capacity to be colonized dopes or zombies.

Man Singh:

""I don'nt know why Indians are unable to digest the opinion different from theirs.""

Hmmm....and he criticizes Macaulay at the drop of a hat! Faux nationalism anyone? Get your daily dose here.

Man Singh:

""I don'nt know why Indians are unable to digest the opinion different from theirs.""

1. Got to be the millions of years of relentless, seamless subjugation at the hands of the various villains.

2. too opinionated?

3. No access to pachhnol/hazmola/pudeen-hara

4. if the above is indeed the case, you are wasting your time Man!

5. Don't know? I thought you were the Man who knew everything? har sawaal ka hal aapkey paas! Oops, sorry, did my deployment of the language of subjugation, Urdu, break your concentration?

Deepti # 82

Did I ever shied away from plight of dalits?
Definitely in Constitutional assembly there were quite few leaders from dalit community and majority were so called upper cast. They all almost unanimously accepted the ground reality of opression of dalits and recommended for corective measures. It is up to the people if they want to give any credit to this majority of people or to one or two dalit leaders of that time.

Social ills creep in every society. Indians are no exception. Still invasion on such weak and degenerated society is crime. I left my door unlocked doesn'nt ensure a certificate to intruder. Thief is still a theif.

Your mother was lucky who was able to protect her dignity. But there were millions who were not so lucky.

A muslim saved her. But who were they who played with dignity of millions?

Was it human nature or part of a systematic Jehadi poisoning started in 713 AD to capture all earth and change dar ul harab to dar ul islam?

My question is glorifying the tyrants will repeat the 1947. This time was your mother another time may be my mother?

Should we gloryfy those rapists and killers?
Should we glorify Sajjan Kumars and Kamal nath?

If we do , history will repeat itself.
If we educate our coming generations that `prevention is better then cure'.

Condemnation is better then condolences then we'll be able to repeat of history.

That's it.

There are 32 smritis and many more are unavalaible. Smritis are opinions of Individuals. There is not evidence that any ruler ruled India with Manu Smriti as its constitution.

But dalit and women opression is a reality at least in last 1300 years since days of landlordism.

Untill times of Harshvardhan even Dr Ambedakar agreed that concept of impurity was there but no untouchability. He quoted Baanbhatt's Kadambari in which a dalit girl who use to train parrots and sell it royal families. A parrot vaishampain trained by her was so talented that King Shoodrak bought it and married even that girl proving beyong doubt that by 5th-6th century there was no untouchability.

I am not asking you to belive in Puranas Deepti, but they are pretty valuable source to understand ancient people. Of course imperial historians never gave any credit to indian references and so do our own `english educated elite'.

But after discovery of Dwarika city submerged in ocean and its age almost matching with Mahabharat's time gives a lot of reason to belive that Purans have certain historical values.

Ved, Upnishad and Puraan are the Shruti in decending order of authenticity. Till date I have not found any eveidence in Ved, Upnishad or any Important Puran anything about untouchability.

Rather Narad, Vedvuasa, valmiki, kakbhushandi, jabali and many more saints and Rishis has been described as coming from so called dalit community.

Tulsi Ramayan Utter kaand chopai 96 to 105

describes that kakbhushandi was a Shudra, A Brahmin gave him Guru mantra. he was chanting mantra inside the temple prooves what I said here.

Yajurveda chapter 26 mantra 2 very clearly says that The way we have preached this divine knowledge to Brahmins, Khsatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras, O Humans , you also do the same so that in this world people giving dakshina to Deva's love us. May our wish come true and we get the fame.

Shivpuran/Vidhyeshwara Samhita/pranavpanchakharmantra chapter17 shloka 50-63 very clearly says that by chanting 5 lack OM namah Shivay a Shudra becomes vaishya. A vaishya by chanting same amount becomes a Khsatriya and akhsatriya becomes a brahmins and a Bramin gets Mokhsa by chanting same amount of mantras.

Bhagwadgeeta shloka 13 chapter 4 says
The four Varna or divisions of human society, based on aptitude and
vocation, were created by Me. Though I am the author of this system, one
should know that I do nothing and I am eternal. (See also 18.41) (4.13)

Niralambopnishad defines what Jaati is:
What's Jaati(cast) :
Skin, blood, flesh ,bones (all obtained by birth) or soul , none determines cast.
Its behavior of a person that determines

And above all bottomline comes on definition of terms. A full fledged Upnishad has been dedicated to define 'Brahmin' to avoid any misconception.

I have just a given a smaple from Ved, Puran and ramayan what scriptures say about Shudras.

Yes in Smritis which are opinions of individuals and not considered as Shastras may contain some nonsnese that is blamed for dalit opression.

Unfortuantely euro-centric minds never bother to refer any other book other then manusmriti as if Manusmriti is the only book on ancinet India.

As I mentioned so many times I am not against any community or religion Indian or foreign. All communities and civilisation