Desicritics Comments on India-Bharat-Tenjiku: One Reality, Many Perspectives

Comment by commonsense

Thu, 8 May 2008 16:02:39 EDT

Vijay: ""Re:commonsense #13 - "most desis, including me, are fluent in three or more languages" Fluent in three or more?!? You've got to be kidding. My parents only speak two languages fluently (English and Malayalam), and I know very few Desis of their generation who do speak more than two languages fluently (unless they come from non-Hindi-speaking regions of "North" India :))." Sorry, I should not generalize! But, as someone who grew up in UP and went to school in Delhi: English, Hindi, Punjabi, Urdu (in India) plus fluent in Japanese, plus rusty German. Most desis I know are fluent in English and at least two other langugages. Of course, as Anamika pointed out a long time ago, English is a desi language too.

Comment by commonsense

Thu, 8 May 2008 15:41:27 EDT

Comment by Vijay

Thu, 8 May 2008 15:28:21 EDT

Kuch phrala, Well, I DID say I would read this sometime, didn't I?! (OK, so maybe I haven't yet, but...) :) Interesting that the issue of Indian support for Nazis is being discussed here. During World War II, my grandfather chose to work for the Japanese-backed Indian National Army (INA). Actually, he was drafted by the British to work as a wireless operator in the Andamans, but when the INA and Japanese took over the Andamans, he was only too happy to join them. I don't think he knew much at the time about what was really going on in the INA, but he hated the British. In fact, he always had a very racist attitude towards the British. I don't think Gandhi's movement had reached the Andamans per se, in which case he had only two choices: to support the British he hated or to join the INA who were opposing them. So, under those circumstances, he joined the INA. Re:commonsense #13 - "most desis, including me, are fluent in three or more languages" Fluent in three or more?!? You've got to be kidding. My parents only speak two languages fluently (English and Malayalam), and I know very few Desis of their generation who do speak more than two languages fluently (unless they come from non-Hindi-speaking regions of "North" India :)). None of my cousins (on my father's side of the family) speak more than one language fluently (and that one language is English - they don't even know more than a few words of Malayalam!). And what about uneducated non-Romani Desis? Do they speak three or more languages, too?! No, I think Romanies tend to have much more of a knack for learning languages. And yes, I think that, like Alin says, it is partly out of necessity. Europe has traditionally been a rather hostile environment (not so much anymore, but perhaps more so in modern eastern Europe than in modern western Europe). The way I see it is, when a minority is not accepted by the general society, the minority tends to cling to its own group. For example, the governments of Middle Eastern countries usually prefer to give jobs to their own people rather than to minorities (such as Desis), so Desis (and other ethnic minorities) in the Middle East preserve their own language in addition to learning (e.g.) Arabic out of necessity. But in the US or Western Europe, it is not generally considered as problematic to give a job to a Desi living there, so Desis who live there take less of an effort to preserve their own language, and they (or their children!) are more often monolingual. Anyway, sorry for blabbering on so much without actually reading a part of the article today (!). P.S.- Alin, it's also interesting that you mentioned Marco Polo, since he visited the port of Kollam (in Kerala), which is not far from my parents' hometown :)

Comment by commonsense

Thu, 8 May 2008 15:25:48 EDT

MS: ""why I go by pro India view of history being an Indian and victim of invasions of Greeks, Sakas, Huns, Arabs, Turks and our in house Jehadis) and Imperialists.""" I feel so sorry for you. You are surely the greatest victim of history and the present. Surely, nobody in history has ever been a victim of such waves of injustice as you. If there is anything I can do to help you, do remember that I run a psychotherapy clinc; all the counsellors are psycho too....just give me a call at 1-8000-

Comment by commonsense

Thu, 8 May 2008 14:46:05 EDT

MS: ""And that;s why I go by pro India view of history being an Indian and victim of invasions of Greeks, Sakas, Huns, Arabs, Turks and our in house Jehadis) and Imperialists."" Victimiology and blaming everyone else and not being self-critical is not a good idea either, but it usually elicits sympathy....

Comment by commonsense

Thu, 8 May 2008 14:43:27 EDT

MS: ""Now question comes on which side I should stand?"" In general, standing on one's own legs is not a bad idea....

Comment by Man Singh

Thu, 8 May 2008 13:15:50 EDT

CS # 14 again you are focussing on `words' and not on moral of teh story. Lions feel hunters are cruel. Deer feel Lions are cruel. Both are true. Same way Imperialists feel our slaves are stupid and deserve beating to make civilised. Slaves feel imperilaists are cruel and torturing weaks and enslaving them. All are true. All opinions should be respected. Now question comes on which side I should stand? Supporters of imperilaists will go by Euro centric view of history but supporters of India's freedom will go and should go by Indo-centric view of history. And that;s why I go by pro India view of history being an Indian and victim of invasions of Greeks, Sakas, Huns, Arabs, Turks and our in house Jehadis) and Imperialists. Bhul Chuk Maaf

Comment by Ruvy

Wed, 7 May 2008 17:16:26 EDT

Alin, This was a very fascinating article that I will have to return to. Thank you!! There is a great deal here to be examined and absorbed, especially for one interested in linguistics as I am. And yes, your ability to write in so many languages and alphabets is truly impressive. I didn't know that the article writing program supported Hebrew at all, not to mention Japanese, Hankuk and Chinese. This is a point I'll need to remember for future reference! kol hakav�d! (All honor to you!)

Comment by commonsense

Wed, 7 May 2008 16:27:43 EDT

Man Singh, So historians for each species and tribe on earth with no possibility of communication across divides?

Comment by commonsense

Wed, 7 May 2008 16:25:25 EDT

Alin, Yep, most desis, including me, are fluent in three or more languages. Still...your linguistic skills are amazing!! Re: the "delicatessen" issue....it was just a not-too-delicate spoof of others trying to stretch reality....

Comment by Man Singh

Wed, 7 May 2008 16:16:45 EDT

CS # 9 Yes I am with you. Deer also have equal right to present their view and appoint their own historians ti prove lions to be cruel. Let me say again my freind please go by moral of the writings and not on wordings. Lions and Hunters are just symbols. When deer came in to the picture Lion is hunter n deer is hunt. It so simple.

Comment by Alin

Wed, 7 May 2008 14:51:18 EDT

Vi tu te aves baxtalo, phrala Vijay Nice to hear of you here Well, it's true that Rustichello was the one who compiled the accounts of Marco Polo's travels (while both of them were in prison) in the "best-seller" Il Millione. However, the notion of India was an important one, if Marco Polo would have had something new to say, why shouldn't this novelty have appeared to the public? I know also that lately there are voices (highlighting precisely issues like this "extraterrestrial" view of India) that inquiry whether Marco Polo really arrived in East Asia or he only invented stories the Europeans were ready to listen to. But, as one can see from the mood of the other travel accounts presented here and, generally speaking, from the usual tourist mindset, this superficial view is rather the norm. I guess the overall idea would be that even if he traveled through Asia, he brought back home only more confusion. Well, even later when the contacts were more meaningful, there would be necessary some more centuries to shrink the notion of "Indian" to the Subcontinent and to the parallel dimension of the "other" Indians, the Native Americans from the other side of the world. Hi Man Singh Indeed, there was a kind of "Aryan revival" in Europe, in the 19th century, after the Europeans discovered the name in South Asia. Or rather an attempt of identity hijack, boldly claiming that they are the true Aryans. Anyway, it was directed towards something else that its usual meaning. The emphasis on blond hair and blue eyes, for example, has nothing in common with the notion of Aryan. These physical features belong rather to the pre-Indo-European populations. Moreover, after they created this mythical notion of European "pure Aryans", they dismissed the South Asian people as a mixture of Aryans, Dravidians, Mongoloids, Munda, Turks and Semites. Hence 0.5-1.5 mill. Roma were killed during the unforgettable Holocaust because allegedly they were not pure Aryans. I know that there are Desis who glorify the Nazis, but they should be aware that if they would have been in Europe during the WW2, they would have suffered a similar fate. Champakaraman Pillai (reminded in the article) collaborated with the Nazis, but he was considered only a tool, when he was not necessary anymore he was killed. Anyway, after WW2, in the Western world the notion of "European Aryan" is mostly associated with extreme right and not considered anymore in academic contexts. Nowadays, the only recognized Aryans of Europe are the Roma and the recently immigrated Aryan Desis. Thanks CS for your nice words. Well, for a lot of Roma, as a transnational people, it is often necessary to know many languages. But also in South Asia people tend to have this propensity, as a result of the frequent linguistic overlapping. Regarding the etymology from "delhi ka tasion", it should be clarified whether it has a connection with "delicatessen". There are a lot of words looking similar, but with different origins. For example, the words employed by the Roma and the Japanese to name the others, Gaje (non-Roma), Gaijin (non-Japanese), they look very similar, but very probably they don't have a common root. Or the term Gandhigiri, popularized by the film "Lage Raho Munna Bhai". It happens to have some kind of similar meaning in Japanese, because giri means "social duty".

Comment by Alin Dosoftei

Wed, 7 May 2008 14:50:29 EDT

Comment by commonsense

Wed, 7 May 2008 14:39:08 EDT

Man Singh: `Untill lions have their own historians, history of the hunt will always glorigy the hunters" And what if by some fluke, these lions happen to be non-vegetarians? Would the deer then need their own historians to avoid the fate of the lions?

Comment by commonsense

Wed, 7 May 2008 13:54:48 EDT

temporal, with apologies to a commentator on amazon.com from whom i got a fraction of the idea....

Comment by temporal

Wed, 7 May 2008 13:42:36 EDT

cs: classic... though by now wearing thin disclaimer ;)

Comment by Man Singh

Wed, 7 May 2008 12:12:16 EDT

CS Bhai, I dun get your point. Confused altogather. Meri samajh me kuchh nahi aya Bhai. Is ganvar aadami ko thoda simple language me samjhao? Kahna kya chahte ho?

Comment by commonsense

Wed, 7 May 2008 10:20:44 EDT

Man Singh: ""Euro Centric Historians always put forward theories to prove out of India origin of a fictious race known as Aryans only justify their crimes against humanity by attempting to hide the same under blanket o Aryan Invasion.... You have nothing of your own. Everything is contributed by invaders only."" A glaring example: the word delicatessen Eurocentrics argue: ""Delicatessen is a term meaning "delicacies" or "fine foods". The word entered English via German, with the old German spelling (modern German: Delikatessen), plural of Delicatesse "delicacy", ultimately from Latin delicatus."" Reality: for many centuries, the Delhi Railway station was always known as "delhi ka station" by the city-folk and "delhi ka tasion" by the village folk. After some time, the food sold by vendors on this station was called "delhi ka tason" by everyone. Envious of our ingenuity at using the same term to denote multiple food itesms, this term was stolen by the Europeans, who then deviously dropppped the "h" out of delhi and called their own food "delicatessen"

Comment by commonsense

Wed, 7 May 2008 07:42:33 EDT

Wow Alin! As someone who does not even aspire to be a knowledgeable person on such weighty issues, I really do marvel (wit a tinge of non-negative envy!) at your linguistic skills!!

Comment by Man Singh

Tue, 6 May 2008 19:45:15 EDT

Aryavarta has been very well defined in ancient sanskrit literature. Bhavishya Puran Chapter 7 says that Aryavarta is area between two mountains and two oceans on western and eastern sides. Alin has rightly mentioned the location of Aryavarta. In spite of crystal clear geographical location of Aryavarta mentioned in ancinet literature, Euro Centric Historians always put forward theories to prove out of India origin of a fictious race known as Aryans only justify their crimes against humanity by attempting to hide the same under blanket o Aryan Invasion. they taught us that look Aryans attacked looted cheated and ruled you. Muslims attacked looted cheated converted and ruled you. We also came in the series. You have nothing of your own. Everything is contributed by invaders only. Unfortunately there are considerable people in India who still support Euro centric view of history out of ignorance or vested inteersts or both. I call upon all Indians to come forward, do research and expaose the falseness of Imperial history written to enslave us permananetly. `Untill lions have their own historians, history of the hunt will always glorigy the hunters"

Comment by Vijay

Tue, 6 May 2008 12:14:29 EDT

Te aves baxtalo, phrala! :) OK, so I *still* haven't read the article (I just started!). But...do we really know that Marco Polo viewed all three locations as "India" (Minor, Major, and Middle)? Or was this just another one of (the actual author) Rustichello's embellishments? :-D

Comment by Aaman

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 06:48:29 EDT

very interesting, Alin, thanks for sharing, and great research Part 2 coming up soon, folks