Desicritics Comments on Book Review: Ruled Britannia by Harry Turtledove

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:43:28 EDT

Fleiger, I just remembered this review that I wrote at Blogcritics Magazine about apocalyptic changes in climate that might interest you. It's really a review of a book and a movie that deal with the same basic subject - a quarter century apart. Naturally, the book comes out better than the movie.... When you write a book, you have time to detail issues for the reader.

Comment by Fleiger

Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:49:19 EDT

@Ruvy: I know how you feel. I have found only one short story in this genre in Marathi, and even Indian literature till date (Anyone is welcome to disabuse me of this). Thanks for the links, will check them out soon. Keep them coming :D --------------------------------------------- @bd: In short, a butterfly flapping its wings in 1900 may cause a documentary on hurricanes in 2000? Would the middle east crisis be the same if Jesus and Mohammad worked in Chile? Now that's a thought that is going to fester :D (Thanks for all the links. Though I am lazy enough to like books which do not require additional reading, random info, on which I will not be tested, is always welcome)

Comment by bd

Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:29:42 EDT

Fleiger, that is correct. I used to programme decision trees once in a dim and distant past http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_tree and as you go down the tree, the original decision's impact on the current situation gets reduced by geometric ways rather than linear ways. A bit less in the past, I used to work with monte carlo simulation for risk management (dont shoot me guys, the current mess had had nothing to do with me, not that i will admit it in public :P). Now that's where one also deals with alternative realities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Carlo_methods_in_finance But, the reason I am not that happy with all that is that life isnt linear. And another aspect which I researched was what was called as genetic algorithims. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm you see, its the mutation factor which is crucial in life, that's what makes life quite interesting. Or in other words, CERTAIN events/people/places/... play a disproportionate role in our lives. For example, (and again, sorry, Ruvy, to use you as an example..), why is Jerusalem more more important in Human History impact terms compared to say Santiago? Why was a chappie from Mongolia the person with the greatest genetic impact? (Genghis Khan..). And we recognise that, those disproportionate events. And that's where, I suppose the interest arises. Would the middle east crisis be the same if Jesus and Mohammad worked in Chile?

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:00:55 EDT

Fleiger, bd, This genre, alternative histories, is my favorite genre of fiction. They give the most gristle for thought, IMHO, as well as a wealth of information on the side. So, I've read quite a few. I've reviewed two such books at Blogcritics Magazine, our parent site, Warday , and the Crosstime Engineer Series by Frankowski mentioned above. I haven't found any such book that has dealt with Israel and Jewish history, and when I grow up, I'll try once more to write such a book - if it still seems warranted.

Comment by Fleiger

Sun, 30 Mar 2008 11:09:09 EDT

@Temple Stark: Thanks... I liked this book, and Harry Turtledove's style quite a bit. Do read my other reviews, comments welcome... --------------------------------------- @Ruvy and bd: Wow, while I was sleeping, you have started quite a good discussion here. Let me see if I can add my two knuts to it now: Regards the "compensation theory", I recently read (in a time travel story) a similar theory. It states that the effect of a individual decision/event on a linear time(history) goes on decreasing with advent of time. And after a substantial amount of time (I think the figure was around 4000 years or so), the difference between two timelines is negligible. That makes sense, right? So, if Gandhiji hadn't come back from Africa, I would say we would still be independent in 2008, but probably the independence would have come as a result of the actions of moderates (who were asking for autonomy), or maybe people like Bhagat Singh. So our situation right now would be different, but in say, 2247 or 2347, we would still be quite similar to where we are heading now. Does that make any sense to you? Ruvy, As for the effect of an individual on history, let me talk from the book (may contain spoilers). Even though it is Shakespeare who is thrust in the centre here, he is aided, terrorised, and coerced by many other individuals to stay on the track they want. If you look below the storyline (and imagine a bit), there seem to be many people who are pushing "towards zero" (as Agatha Christie would say). bd, I agree about the attraction of the genre. This is the genre which talks about "what if"s, while fantasy, sci-fi and others talk about "maybe"s. Much more personal, right? P.S. Divine Balance? Definitely worth a thought, if only as a pat of a story :D

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Sun, 30 Mar 2008 08:27:17 EDT

But, to further complicate this line of thought, wouldn't you say that what you said about the theory of compensation is nothing but Divine judgement which we can try to influence but at end of the day, cannot? Perhaps - but the author of the concept, Leo Frankowski, is a fallen away Catholic who says he's an atheist.... Maybe Frankowski is not quite the atheist he thinks he is?

Comment by bd

Sun, 30 Mar 2008 07:22:37 EDT

nods, Ruvy, I can agree to that hypothesis as well and can see the logic behind that. But then, one can argue that what emerged as Israel would have been a different Israel if the only influence would have been Jabotinsky with nothing from Ben Gurion.... But that just proves your next point about causality, there are far too many unknowns in this place and time to really judge.... But that is where the enduring attraction of this genre comes in. Every person on this world has, at least once, thought back on his/her own life and wondered what might have happened if some decision/task/action/judgement/... had been taken/not been taken or a different one done.. But, to further complicate this line of thought, wouldnt you say that what you said about the theory of compensation is nothing but Divine judgement which we can try to influence but at end of the day, cannot?

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Sun, 30 Mar 2008 06:47:44 EDT

Bd, There is a point that Leo Frankowski raises in his own series of "what if" books, Crosstime Engineer. This is a theory of "compensation". This concept states that events would have probably occurred anyway, though via a different route, and that it is far harder to create an alternate universe than it it looks to be. So, in Gandhi's case, if he had decided to remain a lawyer in South Africa, or had been run over by a tram there instead of returning to his native India, someone else would have arisen to attempt to unhook India from British rule. Similarly, if Ben Gurion had not arisen as a leader because his father was a carpenter in Manchester, there was always Ze'ev Jabotinsky who would have had a far more influential role in the Zionist Organization in the early years, and who might not have died in exile the way he did. It may be far trickier attempting to mess with causality than our science fiction writers have made it out to be. I know I have attempted books of this nature myself, and find that writing a viable alternative history is a very tricky business indeed.

Comment by bd

Sun, 30 Mar 2008 06:28:35 EDT

well, that's an interesting point, Ruvy. You might know that there is a whole body of historiography and even fiction around the "counter-factual" basis. I guess it goes back to the amount of control one person might influence on the future. Come the moment, come the man? If Gandhi would not have been there, would the trajectory of the world have been different? If Ben Gurion's father had been a carpenter in Manchester instead of a lawyer in Poland, would the trajectory of Israel be different? The fact that it would be different is not in doubt, what matters is (in terms of physics), the direction and magnitude of the change. I havent read this book, but his previous books, I think he builds his counter-factuals based upon individuals taking different decisions. But then, to make the argument have more verisimilitude, he then lets them get swept away in the tide of history......

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Sun, 30 Mar 2008 01:11:51 EDT

Borrowed one of Harry Turtledove's books about "what if" - in this case, some Afrikaners going back 150 years in time to supply Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virgina with AK 47's. The delicious irony of the story is that Lee succeeds in separating the southern states from the Union but insists - to the extreme anger of the Afrikaners - on freeing the black slaves of the Confederacy. While I enjoyed the review, I sense I would not enjoy this book. It may be true that individuals influence history to a tremendous degree, but my suspicion is that they get less "stage time" than Turtledove implies in his books....

Comment by Temple Stark

Sat, 29 Mar 2008 16:48:50 EDT

Yes, the review was illustrative of what's going on and this sounds like a pretty fascinating story. I know a few other people who would love it, too. -Temple

Comment by Fleiger

Sat, 29 Mar 2008 12:11:27 EDT

@bd: I have heard about his WW-II books, and one other series, I forgot which. Ruled... is not that new, it was published in 2002 (as I said, I just heard the name) :) Good to hear you liked the review...

Comment by bd

Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:49:04 EDT

His WW2 books are very good and interesting, I loved them :), I didnt realise he had come out with a new book, and its gone into my tbr list :) thanks for a great review!