Questions For Raj Thackeray

I suspect Mr.Thackeray (both of them actually) not only doesn't have the answers to these but he (they) have no intention of even thinking about them. The fact that the questions have been raised indicate someone is thinking about them. Voila - Mission Accomplished!!

Harry

Is it not Truman doctrine that sought to guard western hemisphere from commie russians? That it would not allow any Russian satellite state in its backyard. I think Thakreys are trying to follow in Truman's footstep.

If you can put aside political correctness, lets face it.

Bihar and UP are not progressive or model states. They are badly messed up states. Yes. People from those states have messed them up. And they want whole country to be messed up like their state. Nobody wants their states to be messed up like Bihar or UP. They are not wanted, just like nobody wants Pakis and Talibanis. Even Pakistan and Bagladesh didn't like these Mujahirs and tried to kick them out.

While all states have their distinct cultures worthy of respect and honor, when they are grinded together in a blender, they create unrecognizable slurpee and it does taste like a filth, that absorb only foul odors from the cultural gutters of whole wide world. Than they want to beam that filth into every household around the nation thru TV and Bollywood and media. The filth they create have no semblance to cultures found in states from where these people migrate to Mumbai. So why should Marathis put up with the bullshit?

And why do they all want to invade Mumbai? They can certainly develop their own state the way they want it. Certainly, Maharastrains are not stopping them from doing it. Than why not let Maharastrains develop their own state the way they want to? Is there a precondition that Maharastra should cease to be Maharsatrian in order to be Indian?

So there you have it. Political incorrect definition of filth nobody will dare say aloud, but as usual, I hate to beat around the bush when underlying dynamics need to be spelled out. clearly.

Kerty, out on the net spreading filth again? Do you mind staying in your little (mental) village and not venturing out to impact culture as is created elsewhere in the world. Or do you - like the Thakeray clowns - only preach but not practice? Or is living by your own rules (as preached above) a little too much to handle for you?

I have learned not to take either Raj Thackeray or kerty seriously. They are both exceptionally skilled at spewing rhetoric with the intent to shock and sensationalize every once a while.

Thankfully kerty's ocassional outbursts are contained within DC...sadly no such luck with Raj Thackeray though.

But with respect to both, the same mantra applies: Who the fck cares what they think.

Anamika, I like the way Kerty says 'invade Mumbai'. Makes me wonder why he invaded Chicago instead of developing his state in India.

He earns in dollars but his heart bleeds for others Rupees.

Coming back any time soon Kerty to help perform some Bihari and UP-ite genocide? I am sure the Thakerays will let you spear head the movement.

Aditi, what makes these people dangerous is that some do take them seriously and go on mad rampages that cost innocent lives.

And when riots happen they wash their hands off the violence saying that they never promoted violence but has there were been any kind of peaceful ethnic cleansing in the history of humanity?

Kerty your hatred against certain Indian communities is duly noted.

Do you discriminate against Biharis and UP-ites in your restaurant? Refuse to feed them? After all their filth and odor could pollute your place just like its polluting Mumbia, right?

Dee..

Some times you have to go to the source from where all problems originate and are exported, and why not create taste of their own medicine? I try to do my bit, in dollars of course.

My cynic sense says that the gag order on RT has RT's blessing.

Aditi..

Are we here on this forum to exchange pleasantries or political correctness? What good is a discussion or critique if it does not put everything on the table? Kerty is merely a handle, it merely articulates a message some people rather not hear or deal with, wishing that the message will somehow go away. So please do not confuse the message with the messenger or try to relate the two and find dubious solace from some contradictions by relating the two.

And if you don't give a fck to what Thackerys think, I do not know what you are doing in Thackrey thread. I think you do care, you just do not want to admit it.

Kerty, here's how much I care...

http://desicritics.org/2008/02/14/112253.php

You are entitled to your opinion but please don't credit yourself as the "messenger". I was a resident of Bombay, Maharashtra and I think most of your hateful rhetoric is representative of a few people whose inferiority compex gets the better of their respect for communal ethos.

Aditi:

""I have learned not to take either Raj Thackeray or kerty seriously.""

It took me a while to figure this out (about Kerty)...try hard to take everyone seriously, but he is trolling much of the time...

Sure Deepti, he has invaded Chicago it seems, and as he claimed earlier, he is earnestly getating "real Dharma in exile" presumably to import it back to India...or perhaps to all parts except for UP and Bihar, the mother of all filth for Kerty! I will stop trying to figure out "what his trip is" and will ignore him from now on...lesson learned...

Aditi..

Who has inferiority complex and who has respect for communal ethos?

I don't think anybody reads my posts will believe that I have inferiority complex about Indian culture or I look to western or middle-east cultures for my inspiration or icons. I think I am well-grounded in Indian culture. You can probably accuse me of having superiority complex about India's culture and it will ring true even though that too is not entirely true. I do not think in terms of superiority or inferiority when it comes to India's culture. It think India's culture is special and needs to be projected, propagated, protected, defended. I think people who reject Indian culture suffer from inferiority complex about Indian culture and hence look to alien cultures to be saved from Indian culture.

And from where hateful rhetoric is really coming from? Read Truman's post carefuly. I am truthfully replying to his questions. I do not see love oozing out from those who want to remove Marathi culture from Maharastra. Trying to negate Marathi culture and aspirations of Marathi people in their own state - why is that not hateful? If you think only few people back Thackeray's rhetorics, on what basis you say that? Just because you disagree with it? His entire political platform rests on Marathi pride and he seems to win people's mandate time and time again whenever put to vote. That does not sound like few people of Mumbai, it is majority of Mumbai.

CS:

I welcome your decision to ignore my posts. It will certainly save you silly spells of outbursts. It will slow me down too as my best retorts come when I bounce it off you and some of the resident feminists. However, I sincerely doubt you can stay away from my posts for too long, but I wish you good luck.

I'm a North Indian myself, and not a Maharashtrian. But I feel sympathy for Maratha grievances which Raj Thakre is acting upon. When they wanted to rename Bombay back to Mumbai, then it was griped about as an act of chauvinism, but when Tamils reverted Madras back to Chennai, then nobody says anything. And if you want to look at anti-North Indian propaganda, then look no further than Muthuvel Karunanidhi and his DMK, who have made quite a successful career out of it. When Kashmiris get their privileged treatment through Article 370, it's only a matter of time before everyone else will want it too. But our Left-wing selective liberals are quite silent on these things. If you want India to be open, then make it open in all areas, don't selectively put the burden of tolerance on a selective few, like the Maharashtrians. If I were them, I'd be annoyed too.

Kerty: No one can "REMOVE" Marathi culture from Maharashtra. Migrants from other states in india can only enrich the culture. I grew up in Bombay and celebrated not just Ganesh Chaturthi but also Navratri (from Gujrati migrants), Lodhi (from Punjabi migrants). Mumbai is known for its wonderful chaat...ask any Mumbaiker and they will tell you that UP bhaiyyas make chaat like no other. The construction work would come to a halt if it weren't for the tenacious Rajathani tribes that arrive post-monsoons to work in the blistering heat. The Parsis brought us Monginis and the Iranis, the versatile Irani restaurants. The South Indians, every Mumbaiker will tell you what those endearing Udipi restaurants mean to us. In school we spoke not just English but Marathi, Hindi, and understood a majority of other languages. There are temples, gurdwaras, dargas, masjids, churches. Our lunchboxes at school/ college were a multi-state buffet. I LOVE Bombay just like that, a beautiful medley, a city that welcomes everybody with open arms I and wouldn't want it any other way.

You know what I don't want: I don't want political hooligans and reactionaries like you driving riots and morchas that leave the city crippled every once in a while. This is a very real threat to communal ethos and I will do whatever it takes to challenge, question and ridicule people like you who are living as immigrants in foreign country and don't see the irony in criticizing interstate migration within one nation. It is plain stupid.

The inferiority complex I refer to does not apply just to "Western" culture but also is applicable to people like YOU who feel threatened by cultures other than their own.

NOBODY HAS REMOVED MARATHI CULTURE IN MAHARASHTRA. It is a DUMB statement.

anybody who has seen the traffic halting, music blasting long days of Ganesh Chaturthi will tell you that. Do you know HOW MANY Maharashtra mandals there are in Bombay???

I know it will not mean a thing to some of you guys (the anonymity of the internet offers you a lot of nerve) but as a resident of Maharashtra I ABSOLUTELY RESENT every one of your discriminatory and irresponsible statements and hope and pray that some day this sort of hatred towards national integrity brings you the worst of luck and the most devastating of experiences while mooching of as immigrants in a foerign nation and shamelessly criticizing a metropolitan city's multicultural facet back home.

I have never cursed on DC but I swear to god Kerty's hateful comment #2 makes me want to call him every foul word in the book.

Each one of you haters is respomsible for the riots that have halted the city's progress. Shame on you.

Aditi,

I empathize with you. However, tempting it might be, one cannot reason with fundamentally, incorrigibly irrational folks...

Aditi,

I empathize with you. However, tempting it might be, one cannot reason with fundamentally, incorrigibly irrational folks...

Despite me quoting this many times, I have sometimes forgotten my own maxim:

"When arguing with an idiot, make sure he/she isn't doing the same."

I think the best example of a culture coming to Mumbai and blending with the locals is one of the Parsis. Now, keep in mind, they didn't loose their identity when they did that.

I agree with (not most of, but all of) what Aditi has said and I think its, in a way funny, that Kerti uses the term "invasion of Mumbai" in the first response. On the paper there is no law prohibiting an Indian putting shop in another state. You are free to label it as "politically correct".

The problem is that this section of our society (everywhere and not just Maharashtra) is obsessed with their own definition of "Culture". How do you know that the culture that you are so valiantly defending has not been influenced by another culture in the past? and that it is your very own culture and has no elements of any other? Is it too hard to understand that a culture constantly evolves? You cannot remove a culture because it is in everything that you do.

And finally, this is Bombay. Mumbai. Call it what you want -- it doesn't change anything. How can you even think of it as a place? It's an attitude, a way of life. Ironical that even after achieving so much together, some people doubt the whole concept on which the foundations of Mumbai are based on. Of all places in India, something like this had to happen to Mumbai.

What a pity.

Aditi..


Aditi: No one can "REMOVE" Marathi culture from Maharashtra. Migrants from other states in india can only enrich the culture.

kerty: Are you sure that migrants are assimilating into Marathi culture and what they are enriching is Marathi culture?

Aditi: I grew up in Bombay and celebrated not just Ganesh Chaturthi but also Navratri (from Gujrati migrants), Lodhi (from Punjabi migrants). Mumbai is known for its wonderful chaat...ask any Mumbaiker and they will tell you that UP bhaiyyas make chaat like no other. The construction work would come to a halt if it weren't for the tenacious Rajathani tribes that arrive post-monsoons to work in the blistering heat. The Parsis brought us Monginis and the Iranis, the versatile Irani restaurants. The South Indians, every Mumbaiker will tell you what those endearing Udipi restaurants mean to us. In school we spoke not just English but Marathi, Hindi, and understood a majority of other languages. There are temples, gurdwaras, dargas, masjids, churches. Our lunchboxes at school/ college were a multi-state buffet.

Kerty: how is that considered assimilating into Marathi culture? That sounds like each migrant group creating their own ghettos, a multi-cultural slurpee in which Marathi culture is reduced to one small lump in a mosaic. How is that not removal of a Marathi culture from its rightful place in Mumbai?

Aditi: I LOVE Bombay just like that, a beautiful medley, a city that welcomes everybody with open arms I and wouldn't want it any other way.

Kerty: There is a limit to how many migrants can be accommodated in Mumbai before Mumbai becomes a giant slum park, ruining the quality of life for everybody. At some point, one has to say no, which is politically most difficult thing to say in a democracy, hence those who love and care about Mumbai rally behind ethnic pride to get the message out. There is no other effective way to do it - which is to stem the tide of migrants from poor states. This flow of migrants also suggests that some of the states are not pursuing agenda of development but caught up in ideological pursuits - that keeps pushing their people to the metro areas for development needs. Responsible political parties would remiss in their duty if they fail raise this issue in political arena.

Aditi: You know what I don't want: I don't want political hooligans and reactionaries like you driving riots and morchas that leave the city crippled every once in a while. This is a very real threat to communal ethos and I will do whatever it takes to challenge, question and ridicule people like you who are living as immigrants in foreign country and don't see the irony in criticizing interstate migration within one nation. It is plain stupid.

Kerty: Those riots and morchas occur because people find no peaceful and political outlet to address certain of their issues. They are symptom of failure of political process. The remedy lies in fixing what is broken. Condemning the riots and hooliganism is an easy way out - any dimwit fool can do that.

On your other point - there is no irony in treating India and USA as totally different countries. Interstate migration in USA is not the same thing as interstate migration in India, unless your 'enrichment of culture' is merely a camouflage to transplant homogeneousity found among states of USA to different states of India, where each state is pushed to become culturally indistinguishable from another state, by burying the predominant culture found in each of the states, underneth one big, artificially engineered, national but mostly imported monolith or relativism of multi-culturalism borrowed from all over India and all over world. In the end, no culture of any state can remain dominant in any state and must remain marginalized to big international slupree of multicultualism or monolith. That, my friend, is the real face of politics of culture war and hate. Each state in India does have their distinct language and culture derived from it, and inter-state migration has to be mindful and sensitive to it, and when it is not, one should not hold venom-guns against that state when it points it out. Now that is something people from all states can understand and appreciate.

Aditi, my posts routinely causes fits to CS. But I have never known you to be anything less than level-headed, even when dealing with differing positions. My views must have stepped on your raw nerves. Not a bad idea to ignore my posts. They may not be suitable for somebody like your sensitivities.

Kerty: Lets dissect your dumb and transparently hateful logic:

1. You said: "Are you sure that migrants are assimilating into Marathi culture and what they are enriching is Marathi culture?"

No, I'm not. Why would I be? In order to respect another culture and co-exist in harmony with it, one does not necessarily have to incorporate it into their own culture. So I am not sure why you would use the words "assmilate". Your expectations are faulty. It just goes to show how retarded your understanding of diversity is.

You said: "...a multi-cultural slurpee in which Marathi culture is reduced to one small lump in a mosaic"

Nope. The Marathi culture retains its identity and even moreso as it survives among the medley of cultures surrounding it. A culture is not a soluble salt that dissolves or is diluted.

You said: "Those riots and morchas occur because people find no peaceful and political outlet to address certain of their issues"

Huh, and I wonder what explains the money packets that the rioters receive at the end of the day from political goons as they retire for the night after causing havoc in the city all day. The riots occur because they are part of a political skit and morons like you jump on the reactionary bandwagon.

"Condemning the riots and hooliganism is an easy way out - any dimwit fool can do that"

Ah, if thats a "dimwit fool", then I'd much rather be one (so much better than being a fckin hypocritical misanthrope). I do condemn riots and hooliganism that cost a city its peace and the residents the lives and safety of their loved ones. One day when you lose a loved one in one of these riots you will reconsider your words and this line of thinking.

You said: "Interstate migration in USA is not the same thing blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah underneth blah blah blah national but mostly imported blah blah blah blah from all over India and all over world"

Quite a load of stinking bullcrap! Guess the thesaurus didn't come handy with logic as much as it did with vocabulary. You are a migrant mooching off of another nation's economy. If you are against migration, don't find verbose bullshit to support your convenient double standards.

The problem lies with inadequate state development. If the underdeveloped states were to be given due attention we wouldnt have migrants coming into metro-cities loking for jobs and career advancement. You wouldnt put up a restaurant in an area that is doing badly would you? You would move to a more economically viable area. So people who are looking to further their careers should not be denied that right. In recent years more cities have developed and the influx of migrants has moved away from the Mumbai-centrism. So raising the ruckus now is not only pointless but evil....it is like trying to provoke without just cause.

Lastly, you said: "Not a bad idea to ignore my posts. They may not be suitable for somebody like your sensitivities"

Sensitivities aside, I agree with the former part of your suggestion....I have to give you credit for recognizing and reminding us of just how much you deserve to be ignored.

As for my level headedness, I meant every word of what I said in my earlier comment. I hope some day you lose something or someone in one of the politically constructed riots that grips the city and then you will truly know what to thank the Thackerays for.

Truman:

""Is it too hard to understand that a culture constantly evolves? You cannot remove a culture because it is in everything that you do.

What a pity.""

A pity indeed. But many folks simply do not get this elementary point about the nature of culture. Instead, they insist on making a pickle out of it (achaar daloing) so they can display it, in a Chicago pub called Dosti, for example? Or on DC?

Aditi,

You are a brave soul! Something to be said about cyber-culture here, since the discussion is about something called "culture". Normally I would never have a frigging chance to even come close to somebody like this Chicago wanna-bee gangsta defender of culture, let alone chat with him and listen to his transparent cultural racism. Unless I encountered him as a paid goon of Thakeray. But cyber-culture allows us not just to connect but to actually creat and exchange some heat instead of light. There's a new culture for all of us. As Truman said, what's so difficult to understand about the idea that culture evolves and is not set in stone? It is not so difficult, except for those whose minds are clouded over with foggy cultural racism.

Aditi, why would you apply your scrutiny towards Maharashtra only? Why not apply it towards other states, be it Kashmir with its fixation on Kashmiriyat, Tamil Nadu with its Dravidianist racial activism, or the NorthEast, or even in regards to our Left-wing activists and their constant clamour for "inclusive growth"?

Why should someone put the onus on everyone else to ensure that they are included? A person should place the responsibility on themselves.

Like I said, I'm North Indian and not Maharashtrian, but I see that Maharashtrians are the victims of a double-standard. If Kashmiris have the right to put up all sorts of obstructive laws to block others from living with them, then don't single out the Maharashtrians for wanting to go the same route. As a matter of fact, I'd encourage them, because their assertiveness will help to hold up a mirror to all those others who now already do the same thing, and get away with it scot-free.

Selective liberalism isn't liberalism at all. It's hypocrisy.

Aditi..

Name-calling aside, you have essentially validated all my claims.

That real agenda behind unrestrained migration, no matter how you paraphrase it, is about REMOVING the predominant culture of Maharastra.

Diversity and multiculturalism does not mean each state must give up its distinct cultural predominance to a marginal existence and let it stew in a ghettos across India where it can be ridiculed, marginalized and discarded while any cultural assertion can be demonized and beaten back using arguments of harmony, co-existence, diversity and multi-culturalism. Allowing culture haters with an agenda to remove the culture to pose as harmony-mongers and lovers of diversity.

Co-existence and diversity can not be reduced to a ghettoized existence. It means each state being able to retain and propagate its distinct culture and maintain its predominance in its state and such medley of states being able to co-exist side by side in perfect harmony and mutual respect. That is what inter-state migration is required to respect and uphold. That is what national integration is all about, and that is how culture of each state is accorded its due respect and given its rightful expression in multi-cultural mosaic of India, and that is how India can build and nourish its multi-culturalism and diversity. That is how cultures in India have flourished and that is exactly what is being warred upon by rootless votaries of alienation and westernization, with vested interest in certain alien ideologies. That has engendered an antithetical view of multi-culturalism and diversity that can not disguise the hatred of those very cultures and diversity no matter how much one may ride on rhetorics of harmony, respect, inclusiveness, blah, blah.

This inverted multiculturalism is nothing but ghettoization and marginalization of native cultures and super-imposition of alien cultures. It permits its votaries to import the latest and the greatest from the gutters around the world and mix it up with dynamics of migration and disguise it as one more cultural strand of multi-culturalism and diversity. And since native cultures are marginalized to a ghetto existence, the latest imports can easily be media promoted to capture the cultural land scape and become the grand daddy of the land. Anybody who objects or takes to protests can be demonized and reduced to a status of hater, ruffian, hooligan communal and rioter while real anti-culture warriors can pose as lover and champion of peace, harmony, respect, integration, law, justice, diversity and multi-culturalism. These kind of inverted realities have flourished in India because its votaries, thru media and public life, have largely succeeded in keeping the average Indian Joes and Janes in the state of confusion and denial, and one can't always easily discern who is right and who is wrong, who is a hero and who is a villain. However, whenever any politician have managed to transcend those barriers, their political platforms built on Marathi pride, Gujarati Asmita, Asamese or Dravidian identity etc have found ground-swelling support. Increasing rise of regional political parties attest that people in various states have become very conscious of their cultural and political interests and are not willing to cede them to some grand slurpee of national or global proportions.

Aditi, please do not take anything I write personally. Treat it as exchange of ideas, however disagreeable. We tend to bounce them off each other's posts but no personal ill-will is really intended and I take the criticism(including name-calling) leveled at me in the same spirit.

Let's be clear, Aditi -- you can yap all you like, but the Marathis have the majority of the voting power in their state, and they can vote their policies through, regardless of your impotent bleating. I would support Maharashtrians rallying together to fight for their rights, so that they are not trampled upon by some liberal elite who selectively decide who gets special treatment (eg.Article 370) and who doesn't. That way they can kick dirt in the face of these pontificating liberals perched high up in their ivory towers.

As a North Indian myself, I feel it's high time for Maharashtrians to reject double-standards imposed upon them by liberal hypocrites wanting to trample upon their existence. Like I said, either Indians bite the bullet and dissolve all the special privileges granted to various politically-preferred groups, or else everyone else is going to seek out those privileges as well.

A solid voter turnout by Maharashtrians under the banner of resisting the colonization of their state would be a good kick in teeth for the Aditis and other selective liberals.

Aditi - as CS said, brave soul! Sometimes though its not worth engaging with witless spewers of hate. And that particular poster seems to spend a lot of time trolling and posting all kinds of idiotish material.

Sanjay - isn't it a bit rude to talk of anyone "yapping"? Or is that part of the new desi net high culture? Especially when that person has said very little that can be counted as rude to you?

Three - so your idea of getting rid of 370 and the idiotic special status for Kashmir is to let all other states have similar "special" status? I assume the logic here is that one wrong ought to be righted by another wrong? If so, you may find a lot of people who think very much like you in the Saudi justice system. I would recommend a change of passport but then the Saudis wouldn't want you to dilute their culture.

Four -the "marathi" people have voted and despite Shiv Sena's great presence in the state in the 1990s, there is little evidence that the average "marathi" wants xenophobic nutters in power. So obviously the average Marathi is not nearly as xenophobic as the goons who are supposedly "political activists."

Five - I assume that this idea of Maharashtra for Marathis means that all non-Marathis should leave the state including major investors in the state such as Ambanis and pretty much all of Bollywood? Or is this protection of "Marathi" culture also extended to the MNCs like DB, Barclays and so forth? Or do the "goras" get special status as honorary marathis in your skewed universe?

Anamika, my point is that nobody is going to get off their fat padded posteriors to eliminate Article 370, unless their fannies are held to flame. And that will be done by other groups around the country demanding the same rights for themselves. That will be the moment of truth.

Otherwise, de-linking the existing special privileges (eg. Art370) from the rising demands of others who don't have them, simply amounts to endorsing the status quo.

It is only by challenging this unfair status quo that the wrongs will be righted. I am totally empathetic to Maharashtrians who find themselves having been volunteered without their consent for colonization by an elitist flock of cosmopolitain migratory birds who don't even care about the local people they're planting their feet on top of.

If you want to practice a fully-open society, then get rid of these special privileges like Art370, which were only supposed to be temporary and transitional in the first place. Otherwise, it's only fair that everybody else around the country is going to start wanting those rights for themselves as well.

Don't defend this asymmetric status quo, and don't defend any delays in getting rid of it. Either Art370 goes now, or else Marathis and others get their similar privileges now.

The keyword is NOW.

Anamika, in his zest to be rude and applying usual ad hominem tactics Sanjay actually makes good point that should put to rest any claims of "loss of Maharatrian" culture by Sena, Kerty or him.

He said: "Let's be clear, Aditi -- you can yap all you like, but the Marathis have the majority of the voting power in their state, and they can vote their policies through, regardless of your impotent bleating"

So the Marathis have the voting power, they are the majority and here we have internet reactionaries fighting for their cause and there we have equally dumb a-holes constructing riots. For what? If they are a majority and they have voting power why are they threatened? Ha.

Speaking of impotent bleating.

:)

Sanjay:

""Aditi, why would you apply your scrutiny towards Maharashtra only? Why not apply it towards other states, be it Kashmir with its fixation on Kashmiriyat, Tamil Nadu with its Dravidianist racial activism""

Sanjay comes with the standard software installed (or he reads the standard issue manuals for sophists): when the discussion is about elbows, start talking of asses or fannies....not just the above quote (because the discussion IS about Maharashtra, not Kashmir or Tamil Nadu), but literally true as in":

Sanjay:
""my point is that nobody is going to get off their fat padded posteriors to eliminate Article 370, unless their fannies are held to flame.""

When the subject of discussion is elbows, make sure to shift the focus to flaming fannies...and hope that nobody will notice and fall for the bait...

Aditi:

""If they are a majority and they have voting power why are they threatened?""

Staple ingredient of quasi-fascism and nazism...majorities pretending to be victims of minorities...Nazi supporting Germans pretending to be threatened by Jews, neo-Nazis in Europe and the North America feeling threatened by immigrants etc. etc. All of it, naturally, in defense of some so-called "pure culture" that is allegedly being contaminated. As for Sanjay, shouting out aloud that he is a North Indian who can "understand" how the poor Shiv Sainites feel, well there are parallels too. When Hitler rose to power, a very small number of Germans Jews supported him too. Same pattern everywhere...no shortage of brown-nosers who will do anything to be on the right side of power and power-brokers. Contrary to dominant assumptions, sycophancy towards powers that be is the real oldest profession in the world. (Sanjay, read all about it in R.K. Narayan's _A Writer's Nightmare_; or would reading a South Indian's writings contaminate your new-found enthusiasm for Marathi culture and its thekedaars??)

Aditi,

Sanjay also has the missionary zeal of the newly converted Marathi, that unfortunately is no match for folks who are actually Marathi and are sick and tired of crap but feel helpless against pure vultures posing as defenders of "culture". Culture vultures indeed...

Hope the famous Chicago defender of Marathi culture (talk of long distance culturalism) will encounter some really desperate white American racists one day...even though he is too dense to be reflexive, to have any empathy with real human beings...the fact of owning and running a pub called "Dosti" notwithstanding...Dosti! Irony obviously totally lost on our decidedly non-friendly thug...

Anamika..

Every state in India is special. And should be treated as such. India is a sum of those states and not khichdi of those states. And India is special because those states are special. That should not be be dispatched to Arabia or exchanged for underworld and jehadi culture of Aarbia.

Your characterization of local cultural assertion as xenophobia sounds intellectual and elite but what should we label knee-jerk phobia, ashamedness, denigration and demonization of everything that is grounded in culture's of India. So far we have heard labels like inferiority-complex, superiority-complex, insecurity, jingoism, cultural racism bandied against those who point out this phobia, but evaded labeling the actual phenomena. Why you guys are practicing bravery, suggest a nice elite sounding label.

It would actually not be a bad idea for Bollywood and Ambanis and MNCs to move to Bihar. Exessive concentration of population and capital in a limited geoghraphic area has been highly inflationary, making the cost of living the highest in India, making life and living space of average Maharastrians unbearably misrable. Concentration of population and capital need to be decentralized for evenly spread development across India. UP has been trying for some time to attract Bollywood and Shotgun of Bihar tried his best too, but Bollywood prefers foreign locations and only shoot-outs in India. Bihar and UP could actually use Ambani's and Tatas. But they all want to come to Maharastra, remain in Maharastra - because Maharstra creates opportunities, Marathi culture is development friendly. Maharastra has welcomed them all - it has asked only one thing in return - respect for Maharastra and Marathi culture. And majority of people in Mumbai have no problem with that. Only people with inverted multi-culturalist agenda get so worked up. Others see political opportunity to divide Marathi base to bake their own political bread. Raj Thakerey is politically aligned with UPA which is supported by Mayawati of UP and Lallu of Bihar - so all the instigators and rabble rousers belong to same political nexus. The farm loan waivers are mainly aimed at farmers of Maharastra to woo their votes and NCP can be seen taking rallies to tout that achievement of UPA. It is a naked political dance for power to corner Marathi vote base for upcoming elections. It is UPA that is calling the shots and Shiv Sena reacting to maintain its traditional base. But if you read the media and critics, one can see only one villain - that is Thakrey and Sena. This is what I call creating inverted reality and confusion in the masses for political ends.

What garbage. Here comes the Godwin's Law crowd, trying whimsically apply their Nazi label on anyone whose views threaten their own narcissistic egos.

Just like Sujai writing an article - and posting a graph, no less - about how opposition to medical school quotas highly correlates with admiration of Hitler. Typical rubbish from Desicrackpots.com, along with their censorship mania.

Again, Maharashtrians feel they are being selectively disadvantaged in a country that is selectively granting privileges to some, and legally enshrining them. Nobody's going to put up with that for long.

Just because Aditi and her little pretentiously self-named pal, "common sense" think that everyone should be in orbit around them, it doesn't mean that the rest of society will comply.

The fact is that Maharashtrians are being singled out for a double-standard, and they have every justification in rebelling against it.

I don't see the Aditis of North India making any noise when DMK militantly campaign for their local privileges, or when NorthEasterners do so for theirs. And of course the ridiculous nature of Article 370 for Kashmir stands out as a constitutional eyesore.

The only way to eliminate these double-standards, is for the silent groups to speak out. So Aditi and "common sense" can flatulate all they want against local Maharashtrians, but in the end you don't have the votes or the manpower to turf them out of their own state, or to impose your will upon them.

I'm glad that the Maharashtrians aren't willing to take crap from the sneering Aditis who demand they get out of her way. They need to stand up and push back.

The pretentiously-named "common sense" spews about my "missionary zeal" - again trying to apply his little slanderous sectarian labels onto others.

Buddy, I'm the atheist and the rationalist in the crowd here, and I find your "missionary" label to be more applicable to you than to myself.

Maharashtrians didn't ask to be converted into your Haj site, so stop turning them into your pilgrimage spot against their will. While I'm sure your colonial mentality enjoys taking a trek out to the hill station that you regard Maharashtra, just to drink in the local sights and sounds, recognize that the locals don't like being trod upon.

I am in total solidarity with the people there not wanting to become the victims of a duplicitous status quo, which allows certain arrogant elites to sneeringly rub their feet in the faces of the "lesser" natives. Stop trying to turn Maharashtra into your Palestine. The occupiers are egotistically labelling the occupied as "fascist", when it's the other way around.

Typical rubbish from Desicrackpots.com, along with their censorship mania.

Sanjay if you think we are 'desicrackpots' with censorship mania you are most welcome to leave.

Sanjay: Aditi is a Maharashtrian (you didn't notice the Nadkarni?)....so I am not sure what you mean by "So Aditi and "common sense" can flatulate all they want against local Maharashtrians, but in the end you don't have the votes or the manpower to turf them out of their own state, or to impose your will upon them"
The problem is no one is trying to "turf" anybody out. And flatulate?!...best you could come with after "impotent bleating" yapping" etc. Harsh words, weak cause.

Deepti, I'm noticing how your penchant for cultivating your mutual admiration society by trying to shove out dissenting views has been growing by leaps and bounds. Why not rename this site to "DeeptiCronies.com" instead of pretending it's a sight for critical thinking or discussion, when it obviously isn't?

I again state that Maharashtrian sentiments are only the expression of pent-up frustrations with those who have made it a habit of ignoring them, looking down on them, and otherwise demeaning them in all imaginable ways. And this type of behavior is a prerequisite for those who wish to perpetuate a status quo based on double standards.

Sanjay, let me say it in simple words- you have time and again made it clear that this site is way below your liking and so I am asking you - why do you return?

Apart from that your obsessive need to malign me and make nasty aspersions on my character have never failed to amuse me and has been of little consequence.

You are as predictable as ever

Deepti, this isn't the first time Sanjay has applied ad hominem and personal attacks instead of logic. It is funny he should complain about "censorship" when DC has I think been more than lenient when it comes to editing his blatant and completely unreasonable personal attacks. He is a troll. A well-disguised one but a troll nonetheless. He has abolsutely no interest in the subject and argues only until he gets someone's attention and can unleash personal attacks and kill the debate.

Sanjay:

""Just like Sujai writing an article - and posting a graph, no less - about how opposition to medical school quotas ""

As I said, when the topic is elbows, talk about ass, or better still fannies on fire..lace it with seemingly intelligent reference to Godwin's Law...good going! Rather than debate you, it's best to de-bait your absurd bait..

Sanjay:

""So Aditi and "common sense" can flatulate all they want against local Maharashtrians, but in the end you don't have the votes or the manpower to turf them out of their own state, or to impose your will upon them.""

So Aditi's original question still remains. Since you and your new-found Shiv Sainiks can out fart basic commonsense, what is the problem? Why do you even bother to even argue? Running out of fart-inducing beans is it? Or is it because the all the beans are produced in UP and Bihar and you suspect their flatulent inducing potency?

Sanjay:

""I am in total solidarity with the people there not wanting to become the victims of a duplicitous status quo, which allows certain arrogant elites to sneeringly rub their feet in the faces of the "lesser" natives."

Gone native, eh? Sorry, I thought only your nose was brown. You are so deep in it that your eyes are brown too...

Seema, as always the DC comment policy is quite clear and rarely do I engage this individual.

Sanjay:

""common sense" can flatulate all they want against local Maharashtrians""

So from adolescent pissing matches, you have graduating to farting contests. Given the hot air you have accumulated, plus all the strategic brown-nosing, I dare say you will win, no contest. You sure are eating globally, brown-nosing more than locally, and farting globally. No wonder you stink..

Sanjay:

""I am in total solidarity with the people there""

Nobody ever doubted that..brown-nosing is not possible without some physical solidarity...enjoy the flatulence too while you are at it...

Sorry Sanjay you born-again-Marathi, this is all the air-time (flatulence you see) I have for you at the moment. If you need more attention, do not hesitate to let me know. It costs nothing for me to inflate your ego. Always on call. Free! Just bait me and I'd be happy to de-bait you...

Deepti, if you notice Aditi has not engaged Sanjay either but that hasn't stopped him from using her name as if it represented some sort of a label for his accusations, "The sneering Aditis", "The flatulating Aditis", "The yapping Aditis" etc...

The problem isn't with the comment policy at all. The term personal attack is ill-defined. This has always been the reason why some of us are reluctant to post on DC (or any other website that does not require authentification/ non-anonymity of some sort). There are people like Sanjay out there who know they are trolls. The site knows they are trolls. The editors know these people are trolls. But nobody does anything about it and commentators and authors have to just sit back and have their name used like Aditi's is being.

What place does logic have on the forum anymore? Comments by Aditi and Anamika have systematically dismantled every one of Kerty's and Sanjay's arguments. But how does one argue with something like: "I'm glad that the Maharashtrians aren't willing to take crap from the sneering Aditis who demand they get out of her way"

Firstly the sentence does not make sense. Whose way? Who demanded anybody get out of their way? What is the meaning or relevance of this sentence? It is just plain baiting and it is not the first time but u know what, he'll be back every time we have the potential for a good discussion. And nobody will stop him.

I did read your comment policy. Sanjay's comments have quite a bit of the stuff deemed worthy of being editing.

Here's what the comments policy says:

"In addition, we reserve the right to edit/delete comments that are some combination of pointlessly vulgar, vile, cruel, without redeeming qualities, and an embarrassment to the site"

With all due respect, if Sanjay's comments are not vile, cruel or embarassing for the site I dunno what the standards are.

seema:

the self confessed brampton "rational atheist" and other bleeding heart NRIs who have a single point solution for everything that ails india should be given a right to express their viewpoint

and

if possible others should learn that these guys are good at pushing buttons

and

we should resist the temptation to engage them in a "rational" debate - when am here, my usual retort is a simple "thank you for your comments" -
enough to unnerve them;)

(ask adi - she'd agree - even though she 'relapses' sometimes ;))

re" comment policy - observation noted

Seema..

"Comments by Aditi and Anamika have systematically dismantled every one of Kerty's....arguments."

I would like to think they have opted to ignore the points raised by me. However, if you think they have systematically dismantled my arguments, than it must be true.

Rest of your comment dealing with who has spit how much personal bile against whom is of not much interest to me.

thank you kerty:)

Temporal:

""my usual retort is a simple "thank you for your comments""

Why did you not tell me about this simple solution! I am sure it unnerves them! I do fall for their bait too all the time, as you can well see...(even while advising Aditi to steer clear...)

why did i not tell you?

sowee.... thought you could read;)

(ouch!)

he he he!

as in why did you not tell me earlier???

Temporal: I do agree.


"(ask adi - she'd agree - even though she 'relapses' sometimes ;) "

Guilty! :)

I know I do sometimes let the trolls get the better of me...but this particular issue holds personal importance for me. I don't like going into personal details online but what I can say is that when someone gets assaulted, raped or loses their life and sense of safety in a city they love and consider home, the riots and the political issues take on a very ugly meaning. It is impossible to find any rational sense in such a heinous and pointless expression after that. It is very easy to sit here and lend support to antisocial activities that won't affect you in any way.

I admit, it did push my buttons, T.

I tell Seema to ignore the baiters/ haters but should probably take a piece of my own advice :D

adi:

thank you:)

i did not mean THAT thank you for your comments!

heh

i understand (as do most sensible readers here) where your comments come from...and do understand that you express your views to set the record straight...

the trollers would inevitably pick on it...they have to satisfy their ASS (Attention Seeking Syndrome) - [copyright with humble t - cs pls. make note]

having expressed your views, be selective if you can and avoid the trollers pushing your buttons....just remember they suffer from ASS?

[Try again. You love us. Read the Comment Policy. Once Again, before you hit the keyboard]

Ironic - or perhaps fully aware of the "Maharashtra for Marathis" bs - the city team has been named Mumbai Indians. A bit sad that our most "cosmopolitan" city also feels the need to assert its nationalist credentials - perhaps because left to itself, Mumbai would have no-one to play with? And not only cricket.

Aditi, agree with trolls pushing buttons. But one need not have personal experience of the riots to take a stand against them. No one I know was hurt/killed in these but it still makes me angry and sad when I hear stuff like the Shiv Sena, NC, the north eastern ethnic parties et al.

I grew up in the northern part of the country where each election was preceded by Congress goons streaming out of the MP's residence to cause a rumpus. And each Diwali, Eid and Moharram were marked with riots. Even as a child, I remember being angry at the buses that were burnt, post offices etc that were destroyed. And of course all the private property/lives that were targetted. Although to be fair, I also was pleased with the school holidays we got!

That was the political gurukul where the Laloos and Mayawatis and Thakareys got their political education. Funny, how people forget their own past. But more importantly, why do we destroy that is our own with our own hands? It doesn't take a genius to know that the only ones hurt by riots, disturbances, etc are those who live/belong to this country.

Moreover, one of the idiot trolls here states that things will improve when EVERY state asserts its ethnic autonomy and clamours for special status. Remember the Balkans? Or closer home, remember Pakistan? That was one group claiming special status.

So do we want 20 different countries? And what happens when like Pakistans, one group gets forced to join a "new" country (as happened with NWFP or East Bengal). Do we then sit back and watch all of what we have loved and fought to create for over a century just fall apart?

Do we all listen to NRI types? I do have a personal grudge about the NRI types - my father worked for the government for nearly ten years his brief was to deal with the "foreign" involvement in the Punjab issue. And they were all rich NRI types in Canada and Britain (and some in the US) with pipe-dreams of becoming Prime Minister of Punjab. Never mind how many people died in India, these NRIs continued to dream of being the next Jinnah! Not one of them btw has ever been brought to trial for the stoking the deaths of all those who were killed by the weapons they paid for! Or for those innocent who died in the fires they lit! (And yes, I know that the issue is more complex than the NRIs and the Indian government didn't behave very well either, but they played a huge - and selfish - and yet unrecognised part).

I have to admit this attitude pushes my buttons too. Over five generations of the family have been involved in the nationalist struggle and then nation-building. Not in "political" khadi wearing kind of way, but as warriors, activists, garam dal-walas, and later defense officers. And each time I hear these damn loons - like Raj Thakarey or read the trolls here - I want to bloody well shoot them at the nearest chauraha for sedition!

Whose sensitivities are most hurt when one talks of India being diversified into multiple independent units (which exist independently but collaborate)...For equitable and Accountable distribution of resources and towards the ultimate benefit of people who reside here?

"My Sensitivities are hurt" is too generic a syndrome to be identified only with religious fundamentalism. It is just a matter of time and opportunity on who gets hurt, how soon and when.

Oh!!!, There is yet another difference. Some protest on roads about their hurt sentiments, meager wages, fewer opportunities, ever increasing pressure on infrastructure, less allocation of resources, while others puke and flatulate threats on blogs citing collective colonial opposition as their reasons.

Some compare proposals of multi-cultural model of India to abyss of Pakistan while others compare it to the charm of multi-state Europe.

And like Sanjay, I too am a non-maharashtrian, now living in a state which is not natively mine. For the little I know the people of the state I am in, will never flush me out even if I maintain my separate identity, because at the end of the day they realize that I(and my colleagues) are much more valuable to them as a tax paying citizens and that they can in no level state of head afford to part with us. Just like maharashtrians(including Rajs) will not even dream to part with tax paying(revenue generating) migrants from other states.

If maharashtrians think that they need to have a right to decide on who gets to make money on their land, I respect their decision, just like I respect USA and UK to frame immigration policies based on situation in their countries.

As for producing bile, I agree with kerty that it is just a matter of who uses what technique to excrete it. At the end of it all do it, some do it independently without support from others while others do it collectively in cohesion, assisting each other as groupies.

Good luck!!!.

Anamika:

""Moreover, one of the idiot trolls here states that things will improve when EVERY state asserts its ethnic autonomy and clamours for special status. Remember the Balkans? Or closer home, remember Pakistan? That was one group claiming special status.""

Well said, indeed! But "idiot trolls" can just mouth off without the burden of thinking through what they are mouthing off. Churning words out over the keyboard is cheap indeed; who needs to think??

If maharashtrians think that they need to have a right to decide on who gets to make money on their land, I respect their decision, just like I respect USA and UK to frame immigration policies based on situation in their countries.

Last I heard Maharashtra was still a part of India and like any other country in the world we too have an immigration policy and get to decide who gets to make money in our country.

How are we colonists in our own country? I have yet to see someone take away another's pav and forcefully feed them idli.

FF:

""If maharashtrians think that they need to have a right to decide on who gets to make money on their land, I respect their decision, just like I respect USA and UK to frame immigration policies based on situation in their countries.""

As I said, why think before spewing "ideas" over the keyboard? So Maharashtra is akin to the USA and UK? Good going FF; solitary excretion (your phrase not mine!) does not seem that promising a prospect either...

Deepti...

Last I heard all states were was still a part of India...

1. Constitutionally (read forced) : Yes.

2. Cricket wise: Mostly Yes. Though I have come across Bongs creating a ruckus one too many times on Ganguly being excluded.

3. Urban India, many of whom have directly benefited from migration: Yes.

4. Elite India - The only ones who have been hugely benefited from migration (including the selfish in yours truly FF ) : Strong Yes.

5. Rest of India: I doubt.

The thing that binds rest of India is probably cultural overlaps and cultural exchanges for thousands of years and I doubt it will ever get affected by whether India is a loosely bound union of states or whether it is a one big monolithic nation forced to move together.

Most natives of this sub-continent are too peace loving to interfere or object to parallel cultures as long as they do not invade each other.

Proof? Well check history, civilization and religions that have evolved from this sub-continent.

That leaves us with only one common enemy i.e. a foreign invasion. Yes India has made grave mistakes in past to having ignored this and there is a scope for all of us to learn from it. Rest, Let us try to see to what extent can we loosen this concept of one nation to fight our common enemy.

Being a student of metallurgy and material sciences, I have been taught that a granular structure has much more tensile strength than a monolithic structure (which is highly crack prone). Power metallurgy stems from this fact and some of the toughest materials are created through powder metallurgy.

FF:

""1. Constitutionally (read forced) : Yes.""

With nationalists like these...

Okay on at a time with this particular solitary excretion/farting/scatological idiocy:

FF: "1. Constitutionally (read forced) : Yes."

So I assume Maharashtra was forced into the union and had the constitution forced upon its people? Do you have any evidence of this? Or are we now ignoring Mr. Ambedkar as a writer of this FORCED constitution who just happened to be Marathi? Or is there evidence that Marathis want to secede. Cant wait to hear it!

FF: "2. Cricket wise: Mostly Yes. Though I have come across Bongs creating a ruckus one too many times on Ganguly being excluded."

And cricket is somehow THE indicator of national opinion in the long term, just as Bengalis (or Marathis) are its sole arbiter?

FF: "3. Urban India, many of whom have directly benefited from migration: Yes."

Who the bloody hell is this "urban India" of which over 40% lives on subsistence levels and remits money to rural areas - a process (since our NRIs LOVE to think in US/UK terms) not too different from the one that invovles NRIs sending money too India! So yes, the average coolie, building labourer, domestic servant HAS benefitted from migration.

I find this false rural/urban divide as an indicator of social class a myth created by people who dont think the whole way through or are unaware of Indian ground realities. So just as Biharis build roads in J&K, Kashmiris provide labour in Hyderabad. Why is this "forced" or so "wrong"?


FF: "4. Elite India - The only ones who have been hugely benefited from migration (including the selfish in yours truly FF ) : Strong Yes."

Really? THE ONLY ONES? How about the old leather worker in my ancestral village in eastern UP who migrated first to Lucknow and then sent his sons to work in Mumbai? He has in the past forty years singlehandedly paid for the education and upbringing of over two dozen human beings in rural India? And guess what, by any standards, he doesn't count as "elite." Yes, he has now bought a TV, and after forty years of slaving, his son has finally managed to finance him a car - that he is too scared to drive/sit in, so he still rides his bicycle. How about the millions like him who benefitted from the migration without reaching this mythical elite?

Am SICK of these so-called excreters who think that a free keyboard is a virtual toilet to receive their undigested shit!

FF: "5. Rest of India: I doubt. "

Yes, well, as the poet said, when ignorance is bliss...

Royal battle here :-).

Instead of all these arguments, we should discuss the measures UP and Bihar need to take to improve the quality of life amongst their citizens. A fertility rate of 4, twice that of all other states is a danger to the nation. The future of our nation will be in question if these gargantuan states donot fix their fertility and Governance issues.

Chandra:

""A fertility rate of 4, twice that of all other states is a danger to the nation."'

In your view, perhaps, the "wrong" kind of people "breeding like flies" and "bleeding Mumbai dry"? In most societies, poverty is closely and positively correlated with higher fertility rates. What do you suggest? "Nasbandi", as in during Mrs. Gandhi's so-called "emergency"?

I suggest deporting them all to Germany where the birth rate is well below replacement!

Or we can help them to "invade" Germany rather than that other fiercely independant nation, Mumbai? Perhaps the Shiv Sainiks will provide the muscle-power for this invasion, while getting their cut (hafta) of course?

(I should lay off since I'm on the brew now and too many impish ideas are brewing...liable to go out of control!)

Deepti is once again exercising her predator censorship "policy" for all to see. Where is the link to this infamous "policy" again? This board is not about free expression of views, it's all about Deepti lording it over anyone who disagrees with her. Where is this "policy" link again? Is Deepti scrupulously and impartially enforcing her "policy"? We all know she isn't. She's not a moderator, she's an overlord. She isn't moderate herself, she doesn't know how to moderate, and she doesn't even practice any basic standards or ethics when it comes to "moderation". She simply doesn't know how to be a moderator. She just doesn't have the judgement or the ability. All she knows is how to suppress the speech of others, because she doesn't believe in free speech, and this site is not about free speech. The name Desicritics.com is clearly a misnomer. You can all see what Deepti is about.

-----------------Splutter-----Coughing spasm---why thank you Sanjay

Sanjay..

It does not make sense for you to get personal with editors or posters on any forum. Posters are entitled to their views however disagreeable they are and moderators are entitled to their editorial judgment no matter how biased or selective they may be from your vintage point and if you can not live with that in a civil manner, and keep brawling about what you think is right and how they are wrong, than what is your point of being in such a forum? From any moderator's point of view, allowing you to post and participate is always a privilege and unless it is exercised in a civil manner, it can be denied. So I would recommend you to stick strictly to the issues and leave the rest aside.

Anamika #57

Respecting and upholding the son-of-soil cultures of each state does not have to lead to Balknization. On the contrary, the opposite is true. When each state is not given its cultural space and respect, than people of such states would feel threatened and would resort to all sort of means to be heard or demand autonomy. In the Balkans, it was the deadly mix of religion and their inability to co-exist within same cultural space that created balkanization. In India, all the linguistic states have found their cultural space and have been living happily under one federation and there is no need to temper with it to create Balkan-like tinter box. That was the original logic for organizing states on cultural fault lines and any tempering can only create serious confrontations that can not remain civil.

While it is true that Khalistan Movement was led by NRIs, I should also point out that the freedom movement was led by NRIs, people who lived like British, worked for British, lived among British. In fact Congress was nothing but a organization of employees working for British, same set of people thru whom Britian ruled and exploited India. If one is are looking for contradictions, one can find plenty of them there.

I agree that this issue is deeply personal for many and pushes hot buttons for lots of people. Not just people who are outraged by senseless violence, riots, political goondaism, but for millions of Mahastrians as well. And what happens in Mumbai effects people everywhere. Mumbai is not just a financial capital of India, it has also become a cultural capital of India - what happens in Mumbai, its problems, its dysfunctions, its activism is beamed and exported to people all accross India. What happens in Mumbai soon shows up far and wide in the country side.

While some here are ready to shoot them at the next chauraha when their hot buttons are pushed, what should those millions of Maharstarians do whose hot buttons get pushed on daily basis? In stead of trying to understand their problems, our inverted multi-culturalists love their cultural experiments so much they want to compound their hot buttons by opening the flood gates of unmitigated migration. Can you see the hot buttons of Mahastraians who can afford all luxuries of life except humane living space and must sleep in a slum or street, come rain or cold? I have seen decent middle class families sleep in kitchens and bathrooms. Can you see hot buttons of women who have to squat in full public view to attend nature's calls - does it not push her hot button every time she faces nature's call? Can you see hot buttons of middle-class parents who must kick out one of their married sons because their dwelling can accommdoate only one married son and the other son now must live in slums and face life he never faced before, because there is no way he can fork out lakhs and crores to buy a decent dwelling? You should see the pain and anguish of a mother when she has to kick out her own son. What would you say to women who must face humiliation in trains and buses because they are too crowded and they must spend good part of their day putting up with the crowds everywhere they go, feeling unsafe and harassed? I can fill pages here listing all hot buttons that are repeated in family after family. Whom would you want these millions of Maharstarins to shoot at the nearest Chauraha?

We all know that all political parties have their goons and all goons have their political connections. That was not my point. My point was that certain issues are not being handled by the political process, and there are no political solutions for problems that are very real for people, and hence they often erupt into violent confrontations. It does not help merely vexing outrage at the carnage or demonizing people whose hot-buttons have no political solutions because political process rather not deal with it. If we look at this thread as tiny microcosm, just look at how much bile it has generated here and how people are ready to censure disagreeable views and shoot people at the next chauraha. Now extrapolate it at all Mumabi level. You can probably imagine how certain issues break out into brawls in streets. This thread shows no political solution is possible and issue will work itself out in streets of Mumbai, and not always in civil manner.

In your view, perhaps, the "wrong" kind of people "breeding like flies" and "bleeding Mumbai dry"? In most societies, poverty is closely and positively correlated with higher fertility rates. What do you suggest? "Nasbandi", as in during Mrs. Gandhi's so-called "emergency"?



wrong inte4pretation

my own home state has managed to bring down fertility rate to 1.9- orissa

Kerty, I agree that respecting and upholding local cultures wont lead to Balkanization: so yes, I celebrate Chhath as well as Ganesh Chaturthis, enjoy baul as well as lavni. But why do I have to pick son-of-soil above other cultures?

The Parsis in my city have practised their traditions for generations - and no one has asked them to speak Bhojpuri or INTEGRATE! They are respected/cherished as part of the city as they are. Same goes for the Punjabis and Sindhis who showed up after partition.

What WILL lead to balkanization is the idea that special status of Kashmir that has plagued the nation for the 60+ years can be cured by allowing separatism in other regions. And using it as a yardstick for political spin.

Yes, costs of living are high in Mumbai, but surely you - as an apparently educated human being - are not blaming migrants for this? That sounds like Raj Thakarey-style spin intended to create vote banks, this time based on regional identity rather than religious one.

There are many reasons for why local people are irritated but if Mumbai streets are any indicator, this is NOT a people's issue but a POLITICIAN created one. If people were so angry at migrants (for making them live miserable lives as you pointed out), why would Mumbaikars provide food/sustenance/shelter to EVERYONE who was stuck during the floods two years ago? Nobody asked if they were Bihari or Keralite or Marathi before helping? So where is this anger against migrants?

My aunt's Marathi bai will tell you how she is sick of the Thakareys - and yes, she lives in a chawl, not even the middle class places you are talking of. She will tell you how she lost her livelihood during the 1990s because of the anti-Muslim issues. And now she is sick of the pro- Marathi stuff. She works for north Indians, Marathis and south Indian houses. You know what she hates most - that she is scared to go to work because of Thakarey's goons!

Same goes for the guys who have a little mechanic shop around the corner. All Marathis. Quite happy to make their money and acknowledge that the money comes not only from Marathi pockets. And NOT happy with Thakarey's goons scaring off people and disrupting daily lives.

Leave this issue to be sorted on the street by people and NOTHING violent will happen. Its only political goons who will go out to riot and target "migrants" and only when they think they can get political mileage.

You talk of Mumbai as the cultural capital. I realise that typical NRI fashion, Bollywood is sneered at (never mind the number of people it employs in Maharashtra). So how about Prithvi theatre? That is a "migrant" establishment. How about the national Film School in Pune? Thats "migrant" too. Or the film archives with "migrant" cinema on its shelves. As are a large number of cultural and historical institutions in the state.

Its about time Marathi politicians realised that they cant have their cake and eat it too...

Finally, beyond the Bhikaji Camas and a handful of Oxbridge brown sahibs, do enlighten me of the NRI role in the nationalist movement. Bhagat Singh? Chandrasekhar Azad? Patel? Tilak? Lala Lajpat Rai? Aruna Asaf Ali? Or are you now claiming Gandhi and Nehru as NRIs rather than foreign students/expats?

I am not denying that NRIs contribute to India, but frankly far too many have ZERO clue about the country's realities. And far too many of them sit in US/UK and propound solutions based on their own locations as minorities in these countries for India. India can do without it!

Anamika..

I do not know on what ground anyone can insist that upholding son-of-soil cultures of each state would result in balknization or separatism. That betrays basic understanding of India and its cultures, and its unity in diversity.

Cost of living is atronomically high in Mumbai because of constant influx of migrants that strain Mumbai's limited geography. At some point, it has to stop, or be stopped. Too much concentration of population outstrips livable resources Mumbai can provide. It can provide economic opportunities to all who come because of heavy concentration of commercial activity at one place, but not humane living conditions to all. Humans do not live by bread alone. Economic opportunities, commercial activities and population base has to be decentralized for the better of a nation, and those who are vested with political powers have to plan such development. This amounts to gross disparity in economic development of nation across its geography creating artificially engineered migration of people and capital to only certain regions.

I know human decency prevails when individuals deal with people in their immediate surroundings. So a Marathi might deal with his Bihari neighbors very nicely and still hold a grudge against migration coming from Bihar. I have seen many of my American friends hire nothing but Hispanics to do odds jobs but still want to seal the borders with Mexico. Their issue is not at personal or people-to-people level against Hispanics. I do not think Maharastrians hate Biharis and UPites or south Indians or Gujaratis for that matter. That would be mis-characterizing and obfuscating the issue that is no less deliberate, mischievous and political in dealing with this issue.

Leaders of Maharastra have legitimate interest in looking after the interests of Marathi people and people of Maharastra expect that from their leaders. People of Maharastra expect their leaders to lead them, act pro-actively, help solve their problems and when these leaders see potential problems, they are expected to raise issues before it is too late.

I do not know if you can generalize that all NRIs have no clue about realities in India. It may be true of about most of NRIs, the same way it is true about people of Mumbai towards realities in rest of the India. I am sure some thread will come up here giving us the opportunity to discuss the role of NRIs during freedom movement. Until than.

Anamika..

Just a quick point about unity in diversity. I would like to see the respect for that unity in diversity not just within metros or among individuals in metros. The same needs to be exhibited towards states from where those cultures originate, states that are home of those cultures. That means states have to project their cultures in their metros and not metros exporting its blended slurpee to rest of India with a view to eradicate predominant cultures of each states. That is not multiculturalism, it is negation of all cultures of India with an end result that no culture remains predominant in any part of India or in any state.

All of you go read L'etranger by Albert Camus! Last week, a major survey of all prisons in the US revealed how most of the inmates were American "born". This was a surprise to many as the "immigrant" was blamed for rising crime rates. Here, our friend Raj Thakaray blames all "filth" on the immigrant- nothing new on this rhetoric. Us picking a quarrel with each other is so silly! Do you think that guy is going to read this artile and repent or change his policy?

BB

When USA crime statistics are quoted, we should draw correct inferences to avoid trappings of apple and orange comparisons.

In USA, the crime culture can be attributed to number of factors.

1) Lack of communal standardization of morality, and values, and communal sense of right and wrong - they all are individualized and considered deeply personal and situational. There is no consensus at communal level what they should be. Individualism has fractured that consensus. So anything goes and who are we to judge kind of culture has become mainstream in USA
2) Easy access to guns and technology of violence. Government and people view them as defenders of freedom and security.
3) Mainstream media is saturated with images of violence as part of entertainment and conflict resolution. Kids grow up learning from those images to solve their conflicts.
4) Violence is considered greatest equalizer. Even a kid can mow down a person no matter how big shot or wrestling champ one may be.

There are several reasons why immigrants do not show up big in crime statistics of USA

1) First generation immigrants still adhare to their native cultures which still uphold communal sense of morality and values. They have not yet made a transition to individualized and personalized morality and values of the melting pot.

2) Immigrants have not joined the mainstream of America. They have not been melted yet into mainstream.

3) Focus of immigrants remain making money and they do not let anything else get in their way. So they lead straight and narrow life.

Thus immigrants are able to bypass the culture of crime and violence that is found among host population in USA.

In Mumbai, the first generation migrants still carry their identities and cultural roots with them. So culture of crime has not taken roots among migrants. However second and third generation of migrants along with locals, tend to lose their cultural baggage and communal sense of morality, and become highly suseptible to drift towards to individualized and personalized morality and values - mainly imported from west. Cultural relativism created by fusion of migrants create ideal breeding ground for melting pot culture similar to USA and one can expect similar crime and dysfunctional culture gain foothold in Mumbai.

Mr.Thackeray is taking India back to the old divide and rule strategy started by the British.Our politicians will do anything for fame no matter what they have to do to get it.

Anoop...British managed to rule India not because it was diverse or that we had Marathies, bengalies, gujraties, punjabies, tamil, telgu, and score of other type of people. It was only and only because all of us did not "Fight the aggressor" together, period.

All other talks of amalgamating India under one umbrella is jingoism.

In fact west found it so difficult to conquer India culturally precisely because of its diversity. Now that we have one India model, you can see how easily is west making inroads into India. Let us all try to engage in out of the boxbook thinking.

Well as u said " It was only and only because all of us did not "Fight the aggressor" together, period" .The reason for that was even then we had people like Mr.Thackeray who was bothered only about their own state or kingdom

Well to be bothered about own self, family, locality, city, state, country, planet, solar system, galaxy in that order is quite natural.

Yes each self has to see how much he can sacrifice for his family, each family has to see how much they can scarifice for locality and each locality has to see how much it can give to its city and city to state and state to country and so on. Fundamentally, All those sacrifices for later in the order are only to provide safety, well being and happiness to those which are prior in order.

It is quite possible that Thackeray would be doing so to garner votes and hence trying to wage a regional war for his personal gains. But that apart, the idea of each state trying to give preference to the interest of its own people is quite conspicuous.

Do you fundamentally disagree with the order? If yes, then you have a case.

The debate here is not about each state trying to protect its own identity.Nobody is against it.Its about Mr.Thackeray trying to impose his ideology upon others in a violent fashion.So the culture he is trying to protect has taught him this how u get things done then God save him