A Parting Wish for India

Are you sure this happens in our culture? Those with the holier than thou attitude would surely tell you that those who undergo it deserve it due to 'Western influence'; that the minute they step out on the roads or want to be treated like men all this is bound to happen to them.

Victim precipitation is the best excuse used to absolve the criminals and our ' divine culture'.

Not all Indian men are this way. I've had good experiences as well - when my old 800 broke down twice men came and helped me out, tire punctured another man came over and fixed my tire, on a plane a nice Indian guy grabbed my bags for me so I could take my children down the stairs but having gone through so many bad experiences I am wired to expect the worst when I step out.

dee... no, see nowhere did I say that all men are the cause of the problem. I also know many good Indian men. The problem is the people who commit the crimes are fearless, there is a culture of not helping when others are in trouble (because of the consequences... see man above killed for helping a stranger), and the police rarely catch the perpetrators ... or even worse they never listen to the victims. And then there is the culture of silence that exists around sexual molestation.

SS, I'm saying its like a scale- my bad experiences have been so bad that even though I know there are good men out there but the bad really scare me also because I know if shit happens I will have to fend for myself alone.

In this month's Tehelka magazine there is an article about a village couple's daughter being kidnapped because the couple tried to make sure that a girl who was being sexually harassed by a big businessman got justice.

Thoughtful post SS! As moving as the earlier one on India, but moving in a different, equally important direction... (I brace for the brickbats you may or may not receive, but not from me! :))

I just want to say, ss, that you're 100% right on the ball. It is a scary, ugly mess to be born a woman in this country. I can't speak for other countries, but I can speak for this one, and it is ugly beyond belief. You have only to WALK in chandni chowk to know what complete scumbags there are in Delhi. What little I see in other countries and read in the press tells me that it is a similar story everywhere. There is no place in the world where women are not raped and beaten.

I sometimes think that this is actually what evolution has produced. In most of the animal world, it has produced bigger males. In the ape/human world, it has done the same. The man who can fight and kill is the one that gets the woman, usually by force. It is almost as if nature intended men to be brutes, by making sure the big, vicious ones are the ones that survive to breed. If enough women choose mates for sensitivity and not strength, will we see perhaps, the next round of evolution?

It is almost as if nature intended men to be brutes, by making sure the big, vicious ones are the ones that survive to breed.

I'm sure you've met some nice ones, so why the generalized criticism? Even brutes have soft spots, especially behind the ears.

It is a problem elsewhere too, and yes there are non-beastly males in India too, but man! In Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Japan, Taiwan etc. (just to take Asian societies), it is completely different: I refer to the day-to-day crap dished out to women as they go about their shopping, doing the regular stuff, gettting to school hanging out etc., not rates of rape, DV etc. None of this is to be found in the other-mentioned countries. Yes, I am aware of the groping in trains in Japan, but, no comparison in general...part of it might have to do with the segregation of the sexes that is still evident. I do feel that it used to be far, far worse twenty-thirty years ago when some men had more time on their hands, so to speak...disgusting, is all I can muster...

You may be pardoned this last time, for having demonstrated such a narrow and selfish spectrum, as in this 'high-on-emotion, low-on-common-sense' piece.

If you have the indignation to call national/govt. statistics as fake, I am not sure I should even bother to argue on the validity of your anecdotes. Even otherwise, It can be mathematically proven that such people who indulge in physically offending/irritating your majesty are definitely less than 1 on 100 in India. How? A person with such compulsive disorder would out of his habit do it once every week on an average. Assuming the person continues to do so for 20(15-35) years and assuming that every woman(!!!) on an average has felt insecure 10 times in life, it makes that person 1 in 20*52/10 ~= 100 males. And that is as lax as it can ever get...but alas stupid half educated feminists try to use evolution as a tool to denigrate males. The problem with feminist is none but the nauseating, stinking bias. If not for evolution theory, they would have employed theory of relativity to blame males.


Not-withstanding your arbitrary citations and reasons for your personal experiences,
I would suggest you to have your head above your shoulders before you pass on those "high on emotion" cents to others on what to do and how to do.

Even if I take all above crimes into account, they mention all in all about 15 criminals (many of whom if caught would have got convicted by now). Assuming that there are about 10,000 replicas of yours marauding this 1 billion country, it in no way changes that number from 15 to 15 * 10000. Why? Because viewing news crawls twice does not make the crimes go up by 100% though the number of compulsive rants in news hungry media and blogs definitely do.

So if you really get the message, I am questioning your generalizations and not your jingoistic call against crime.

Putting up with this emotional drivel and its generalization over population, makes me look at myself as some kind of Angel (which I know I am not) in this country which as per you is filled up with criminal males.

By the way, the known crimes against women are at the lowest end of spectrum and sadly speaking numbers will only catch up with those against men as women participation in public sphere increases. Will it mean increase in market share for the feminists?

Now that is for you to tell the world.

When you place competitive individualism ahead of common good, personal freedom ahead of moral principles, material progress ahead of spiritual and social progress, gender warfare ahead of family welfare, society can become dysfunctional which would manifest at people to people transactions, irrespective of person's class, creed, caste or gender - than people pick and choose their favorite dysfunctions to crusade about. Society under the grip of such dysfunctions loses moral compass because nobody can agree on what that minimum common norms or code of conduct or morality actually should be and harping on culture or traditions invite only ridicule and contempt from different factions of cultural warriors. People are asked to look at women as object of love, romance, pleasure, desire, lust, bedmate, sex, pleasure, which means they would manifest in all those combinations and permutations among people - that leaves gender warriors quite a plateful to crusade about. People are asked to treat all relationships as disposable, self-serving, transient phases, stepping-stones, individual-centric while notion of sanctity, committment, sacrifices, permanence within relationships are ridiculed as bondage and relics of retrograde culture, collectivism. That is the face of cultural war India is in the midst of. In previous era, rulers were not accountable to society they ruled. In modern era, ideologies and ideas and their champions and bearers are not accountable to society. They demote their own accountability to the lowest level for all the dysfunctions they engineer while subjecting their opponents to highest level of accountability(at religion, culture, tradition, belief, gender level) and maintaining fake self-righteousness by constantly refueling it by exploiting one dysfunction after another. Which means we will see more of the same to continue.

@smallsquirrel: Gandhiji once said

"We should meet abuse by forbearance. Human nature is so constituted that if we take absolutely no notice of anger or abuse, the person indulging in it will soon weary of it and stop."

Thanks for sharing your wisdom. Have a safe trip back home and do visit India again in the very near future.

SS:

It's just a matter of time till Sumanth finds this piece! FF is already here :)

Dear SS,

Your article is very important, just as your earlier one was. We have a big problem in India, and because it exists in the US and other place in other guises, doesn't make it less important.

It is not just about ill treatment of women. I don't know if you have noticed, in general people in India don't like to wait for their turn, whether in a queue or in any other place. Is this due to over population? Is it due to our scarcity mentality? Culture? Religion? Probably a combination of all these.

In India corruption of the mind is institutionalized to the extent that a person who doesn't grab what he or she can is considered dumb. Parents are known to encourage this in their children, by example and by instruction. I know I am generalizing it, perhaps not everyone is thus, but in majority don't worry too much about substantive moral education.

What's the solution? I guess only time can solve these problems. When we become a prosperous country, perhaps we will have leasurely time to contemplate such philosophical topics as universal brotherhood etc. Until then, we are cursed to live the way we do...

Thanks again for your article.

Regards,

Ravi

common, I could not give, as I have said before, a flying rat's ass what those SIFFers think. I choose to ignore them on this thread completely. I will not dignify their ridiculousness with a response here. If they chose to blame everyone other than men for the violence that certain men propagate, I have nothing to say to them but "good riddance."

There is a problem in India in this regard and I have been hurt by it, but most importantly I see that India is hurt by it. I see that my friends have been hurt by it. I see it shaping this country in ways that it would be best served growing in a different direction. It makes me very sad.

deepa... did you know that in some animal species the women are the hunters and/or the larger of the genders, and/or they species live in matriarchal groups? Elephants are ruled by a dominant female. female lions do all the hunting. But yes, maybe we could outbreed the nasty ones and see what happens :)))

More power to you SS! You are right. The only way to deal with the SIFFER's is not to deal with them. They will be back here by tomorrow for sure.

what can i say?

after reading this,my feelings:

***the author already told that she is deaf towards men and their views(In post #13). Probably she will listen to men who support her views only.whatever it may be,I am going to say what i want to say.***


Well, I know that,what women facing in their daily life. How much worse it is.I can understand how women feels (at least some extent) about that.
But what you did is nothing but showing a cause to undermine men and their problems.isn't it?

In your entire article you listed so many problems of women, Just try to think peacefully.A man who is very important to you, faced false sexual harassment case, what will you do? what you are going to say to him?

Dear,don't bother about that, go and sit in jail for 7 years, don't say that what she did is wrong, and the law which is going to punish you with a fully biased approach towards that women is not bad. beacuse......

1)men leached or stared at women everyday.
2) i also attacked by men many times.
3) At the end of the day, what we,women, are getting is much worse than yours.

So don't talk negative about that women.(I just said this in hypothetical way, no offence)

Can you say this smallsquirrel.

CRIME IS A CRIME, WHO EVER MAY COMMIT TO THAT EITHER MALE OF FEMALE.

Misuse of the provision provided for protection is also crime. Treat a crime as crime, not crime on women or crime on men. I am not denying (and of course, i can't actually) to punish those rascals who commit crimes. What i want to say is, Crime on women or crime on men never undermines crime on men pr crime on women respectively.

how can you say like, at end of the day women are getting much worse than men, so no need to bother about men?

I don't know if you have noticed, in general people in India don't like to wait for their turn, whether in a queue or in any other place. Is this due to over population? Is it due to our scarcity mentality? Culture? Religion? Probably a combination of all these.

Its lack of discipline. The only thing that keeps us in check is the fear of law and fines;)

sanjay.. thank you. we'll see if I get anywhere with the airport authorities strike looming on the horizon!

ravi kulkarni... yes I have noticed about the queues. how could one not? I think those kinds of issues are mostly about the sheer number of people present here. you have to fight to get your spot/food/job/air!!! it is reflected even in the way traffic works here! but yes, that kind of inculcation of the values you mention I am sure does greatly contribute to the situation I am talking about. if you cannot get a woman by charm, take her by force! anyway, I think it is something that needs to be addressed before this country can fully realize its brilliant potential. India is growing by extraordinary leaps and bounds every day, but this one thing could derail the whole train of progress.

The shock Doctrine. A Must Watch.

http://cliffschecter.bravenewfilms.org/blog/12290-the-shock-doctrine-by-alfonso-cuar-n-and-naomi-klein

also, sanjay... what gandhi said was wise but unfortunately it is not so easy to set aside one's feelings and not take notice after one has, say, been brutally raped and in the course of things has lost a child. or been molested as a child and then face resultant intimacy issues for the rest of one's life. when it is your boss at work it is much easier to ignore. when your dignity is stripped from you on a daily basis it becomes a bit more of a challenge.

ss:

i almost had to force myself to finish reading this...such revulsion i felt

but are you aware of an irony? it is mothers more than fathers who contribute to the cultural value transference in babies...specially in the formative 20 months or so

hope you understand that am NOT blaming the poor mostly ill-educated women who are guilty of this for they know not

Deepa krishnan

what about bees, black widows, Ants and some other species which simply kills, or not allow to male species even born.(sorry for my english).Here females are very powerful, they are doing much worse, but ignored by many (accidentally, or incidentally or conveniently).

May it is not male or female, But having chance or not, decides everything.

thank you ravi

now go back to drinking/smoking whatever you are having

;)

@ smallsquirrel: I rather doubt that talking about it is going to make an immediate difference. At best, it makes at least a few people uncomfortable and a whole lot of others dig in their heels and throw statistics back at you. I've come to the conclusion that discomfort makes a lot of people nervous - especially disconcerting truths of this nature. I'll just add my voice to say that you are right. Few women over 13 (not 20) have escaped molestation. In fact I know none. That may not match the statistics but it comes to me from all the women I know, across age groups and social barriers.

Thanks for this post.

temporal... I both agree and disagree.

I agree that I have seen women here perpetuate the cycle of violence. mother-in-laws who were once abused brides go and then abuse their sons' wives. but this is sadly why we call it a cycle of abuse. most people who are victims of abuse feel powerless and then in order to regain a sense of power and to stop feeling like a victim, they make other people their victims. it is a sad sad cycle.

but hey, you cannot just blame the mothers!!! where are the fathers in the equation then. my husband would not let me get away with teaching my daughter values that he does not agree with, and neither is he absent from teaching her himself. it is far too common to blame the mother for everything, not just in this culture but in all cultures. we need to start blaming the father, too. and it is not just the ill-educated but also the degree holders who damage their children with ridiculous teachings.

ideasmith... hey, it might make people nervous but it is that very culture of silence which allows the problem to continue unabated. I refuse to comply with that. I refuse to remain silent in the face of abuse. when things are out in the light, the people who become nervous are the perpetrators. it is the victims who finally breathe a sigh of relief. it is no longer a dirty secret. it is the truth, out there for everyone to see. it is no longer the shame of the victim but the shame of the society that does not stop the violence.

ss:

i put a caveat there already;)

but i agree:)

Temporal

i didn't get you. when ever you want to say something to me, please say it little bit more explanation. What the meaning of your previous post to me, do you like to stop me from posting here, or something else?

ravi:

i thanked you for taking the time to put in your valuable thoughts here

(no icons)

It is very clear that people feel discomfort while the truth come out and questioned straightly by others. I noticed it clearly when SIFFERs asking others "about the truth" straightly.They feel lot of discomfort. May be people like to accuse not likes being accused.(applicable for all).

@ smallsquirrel: Have you seen the Blank Noise Project? I participated in one of their blog-a-thons a few years ago. Most interestingly several men thought it was "a load of crap" or "a parade of man-hating feminists". And then there were some who also wrote in saying that they had never realised that this was what it was like.

Building sensitivity isn't an easy task. As women we have it either handed down to us from our mothers (Keep away from men who look at you like that!!) or we just develop the awareness with time and bad experiences. Making the opposite sex aware when they have fewer instances of it happening to them is a herculean task.

I've been quite fiery and emotional in my stance on this but increasingly I'm finding that the real people that one wants to spread this message to, will listen to reason and perhaps a little less of the tirade-like outbursts. The rest are...well, I'll reserve my comments on the lot except to say that there's no point for now trying to change their spots.

All of this said, I hope you understand that I'm in total agreement on your point of view.

ravi.. the only thing I will say to you is this. I do not feel uncomfortable, not once bit, so please do not make a mistake in having that thought. it seems SIFF is the one feeling uncomfortable always making ridiculous comments. you should take your own advice to heart. if the truth did not hit you so close to home in this case all you boys would not be bitching and moaning here. that is all I care to say to say to you.

ideasmith... yes, I know of blank noise project. for the most part I agree with what they do and they good good things. however I do think some of the stuff goes too far. I do not agree with the "no looking" business because men look, they are visual creatures... PEOPLE look... *I* look when I see a handsome man, they can look when they see a beautiful woman. you cannot persecute for looking. if you do, then they will say "if I get in trouble for looking, then I might as well touch". and there is a difference between looking and leering.

also I see some girls who are more than likely fed up with other situations they have faced and then take it out on the wrong guy. so they are molested one too many times and then some poor dude comes to ask them out and they go off the wall screaming when all they had to say is that they were not interested. it does no one any good to over react. being stared at is frightening, but there is a damned big difference between that and a rape. we need to react to each incident APPROPRIATELY, which means not over reacting and not under reacting.

@smallsquirrel: also, sanjay... what gandhi said was wise but unfortunately it is not so easy to set aside one's feelings and not take notice after one has, say, been brutally raped and in the course of things has lost a child. or been molested as a child and then face resultant intimacy issues for the rest of one's life. when it is your boss at work it is much easier to ignore. when your dignity is stripped from you on a daily basis it becomes a bit more of a challenge.

It is one thing to empathize with someone who's had a bad experience, quite another when that same someone knowingly (mis)uses that alleged experience to blindly generalize & stereotype Indians. Indicates two mindsets (1) cold, calculated, cynical. Gandhiji himself was quite aware of this unfortunate tendency on the part of some and labeled such people [EDITED]
or (2) distraught emotiveness.

Neither can be taken with any seriousness.

sanjay... not sure I get your point. you started off nice then decided in a split personality moment to later get nasty about it?

nowhere did I blindly generalize or stereotype indians. the episodes I mentioned are all fact and I did not draw any major generalization about indians on the whole except that the country has a problem. are you telling me there is not a problem?

distraught emotiveness? hmmm, tell me sanjay, ever been raped? did not think so. I have. have to tell you, it changes your life. sorry for being distraught. [EDITED] and I will try not to inspect it ever again.

oh, and stop accusing me of shit I never said. you're really something else. you just go looking for fights everywhere.

hey editors... sanjay calls me a [EDITED], it gets left on here... I in turn tell him he can go back down his drain and it gets edited?

do explain please... either both go or both stay.

nowhere did I blindly generalize or stereotype indians. the episodes I mentioned are all fact and I did not draw any major generalization about indians on the whole except that the country has a problem.

You take a few episodes, stray news items etc. and from there you jump to the conclusion that the entire country has a problem? if this is not a textbook case of hasty & blind (over)generalization, I don't know what qualifies.

Then, as if the stereotyping weren't ugly enough, you self-righteously announce in your column the intention to be close-minded as well! Almost as if the mere public announcement of a nasty act somehow legitimizes it. Not sure what's worse - the hasty generalization or the clumsy attempt to preemptively stifle all discussion & debate. Most likely both.

are you telling me there is not a problem?

India has her share of problems, no more or less than in any other society. But India also has the unique, proven ability to produce reformers on a regular basis to address and fix these issues. Once again, thanks very much for your concern.

Hey SS, keep up with the good fight! More power to you. And avoid tangling with the surrogates of the von-Siffers...(easy to spot on this thread)

oh whatever sanjay. you can criticize both the US and India whenever you like but I cannot say anything about India? What a joke.

It is not just a few stray cases Sanjay. You're deluded. But I guess sitting over there in the US you've gotten yourself a little confused.

SS,

Re: Sanjay, The temptation of saying "I told you so"! is something I will not succumb to. Location and perception of one's country, does make a difference to some extent. I expect you will, unfortunately, get some more flak form brittle "nationalists" who will no doubt feel you are running down India, when you are not! Some wise guy once said, "the best form of patriotism is criticism"!

@smallsquirrel: You must be joking. To my knowledge, no one has ever prevented you from your India bashing. If I recall correctly over the past year or so, virtually everything you write is critical of India in some way. Moreover, any attempt to criticize the West evokes an irrational, emotive and generally abusive response from you.

You're evading the main issue i.e. the plethora of hasty generalizations, misrepresentations etc in your column. Compounded by an heavy-handed attempt to stifle discussion.

@commonsense:Some wise guy once said, "the best form of patriotism is criticism"!

But not all criticism is patriotism. If that were the case, enemies would be the most "patriotic" of all. Which is patently absurd.

sanjay, you apparently have a selective capacity for both reading and memory, but that is to be expected. I just wrote a piece on here about all the things I absolutely love about India but you chose not to read that.

But whatever. I don't much care what you think of me. You're only a guy who gets nasty with just about everyone. I don't take it personally in the least.

heavy handed attempt to stifle discussion? HA! how ironic coming from you. you just make a lot of carefully-couched personal attacks and you never have a point. it's all just posturing. you're an angry man sanjay, but it doesn't mean you'll cause me any discomfort.

common... oh I knew it was coming, I just don't give a shit. these people are simply online bullies. in person I am sure they are impotent and cowardly. if it gives them some power to think they made a point, so be it. no skin off my nose.

What gibberish! Sanjay G I dare you to report one woman who has not be molested in India.

Gandhi used his throwing off the train as a springboard for his fight for freedom in South Africa and India. That one experience changed him and made him fight for a cause.

And he held all Britishers responsible for it. He asked the British nation to reflect on the misery imperialism had caused in India.

He used his one experience to change the fate of India. Women here face sexual abuse in India daily in some form or the other.

We don't whistle, pass lewd comments on men, grab strange men's buttocks, their penis or any other parts of their bodies. Why do they do it to us?

Is this not something you should wonder why so many of your gender is prone to do? Should you not be the first to take action against them, instead of acting like a pigeon and passing the buck?

Blaming a victim who has suffered in the hands of Indian men. It is a shame that instead of being apologetic about the kind of treatment that is meted out to women in India you are instead maligning her character and saying she is holding whole of India responsible for it.

She should as do all Indian women. We ask our men to stand up and take up arms against such criminals who give our country a bad name, to protect us and not look sideways when we are stripped and raped in the middle of a street.

It is really embarrassing to read your comments Sanjay G

.

thank you anadiya...

it is amazing to me. it seems that a lot of men in India are completely and utterly clueless when it comes to the condition of women in their own country. they would rather be ignorant, or worse, belligerent, when faced with the truth!

it is funny, not one Indian woman has come here to tell me I am wrong. Only Indian men. That speaks volumes.

I do not care much about what has happened to me. I can fend for myself. But what about my daughter? She is an Indian. And what about my co-sisters? My nieces. Some of them can fend for themselves too, but some are too young and some do not yet have their voices. I am worried about the future of India's women.

Indian women are a strong lot, no doubt. They are stronger than women in almost any other country. Look what they must face! But that doesn't mean it is right.

Anadiya

"We don't whistle, pass lewd comments on men, grab strange men's buttocks, their penis or any other parts of their bodies."

You should do that too to get even with men-kind - you know, many men might actually welcome it, unless you are buck ugly like most other bitter feminists. I would suggest a better way to get even - marry those buggers and rob them dry with alimony, file dowry or DV charges and throw them in jail for good. Serves them right.

No Kerty, as it is your organization and you hate women so much why don't you go ahead and please these animals with some loving all male handling?
Happy loving to you and your predatorial men.

ss

"I am worried about the future of India's women. "

I think you can leave India without worrying much about fate of Indian women. We have imported one more Italian Bahu, just in case, and she is going to be in India for good. And she too loves Indian women and worries about their future, and even if that is for votes, something good for Indian women will come out of it. She now lives without a man, and I am sure she will teach Indian women by her example how to live without men. While saving and civilizing Indians used to be a white men's burden , we have come a long way. Now saving Indian women is white women's burden and Sonia will do just fine.

I dare you to report one woman who has not be molested in India.

Women here face sexual abuse in India daily in some form or the other.


WTF ?

What is that you call molestation?
What is that you call sexual abuse?

The way you all scream about, I just do not get it. I gave an clear explanation above where even if every woman is abused 10 times in life it is handy work of no more than 1 in 100 persons.

From the way you allege it looks like any confrontation you had outside of your house is a abuse that amounts to molestation or sexual abuse. That way every man in the country is subjected to 100 times more abuse than a woman.


Just a year back, all feminist organizations were crying loud that domestic abuse is the single biggest source of abuse of women and were complaining that society recognizes just the abuse which happens outside of the four walls of house.
Then they run a survey among 1 lac women and find out that despite their best efforts to mint abuse statistics they can come with a figure of 37% women who were abused at least once in their entire life. In their fury, they did not even bother to collect information on who initiated the abuse.

Now suddenly one year down the line some women on net are cribbing that 100% women are abused outside of their homes. There is more than a fish here. I suspect there is a huge feminist driven economics which is playing the game.

By the way, Anadiya asked Sanjay for one woman who has not faced molestation.

I know at least 25 women in my neighborhood who have never faced any molestation. May be they all are lying but then that is what i know. I also know of 2 women who have alleged molestation.

Andiya..

I just posted a comment on another thread that we should make love and not war, and both sexes should love as many people as possible, as demanding all our happiness from only one person is becoming a source of disillusionment and conflicts in most inter-gender relationships. You opposed me there too. Are you not for love and happiness of men and women? I am talking about loving as many women as possible and you are accusing me of hating women. No, I do not belong to any swinger or love organization. We do not need organizations to share our love with others. Men are naturally attracted to women and biologically conditioned to love women. I do not think men are capable of hatred of any woman, unless she is a feminist. They would rather make love than war. Their manners and tactics may not be refined or gentlemenly in western sense, but than there are no schools that teach how to woo women. Bollywood is their only guide. So some of them end up expressing their love and pick up skills by passing heartfull comments or seek to be initiate courtship ritual by trying to be near their object of love, by trying to touch her, but with no real ill-intention. Its not like they are trying to rape, which is what happens in other countries when men really desire a particular woman and she does not reciprocate. Men in India simply move on when woman chooses not to respond to the courtship rituals. Eve-teasing is a sign of sexual repression of men and women and it will go away only when men and women are sexually liberated, and thereby making eve-teasing redundent. If you are truly concerned for Indian women, you should be promoting skimpy dresses in order to boost eve-teasing which in turn will force society to be sexually liberated and empowered.

"I dare you to report one woman who has not be molested in India...."

Not to spoil the party or anything, but I grew up in India - in the cow belt no less. Since university days, I have travelled in the country extensively, including backpacking and staying in youth hostels, going around with social workers as well as with film crews. And I have done so in both rural and urban parts of the country. So I would like to think that I speak from experience.

I am not sure what the definition of molestation may be on this board, I believe that its a little bit more serious/aggressive/intrusive/ threatening than whistles and comments. And I have to say that by such a definition, I DO DARE to be an Indian woman who has NOT been molested.

I am not saying that there isn't a problem with the way women are treated, but can we PLEASE not get SOOOOO sensationalist as to claim that EVERY woman is "molested."

I also don't think that its a particularly "Indian" problem - not too long ago, Italians were famous for "groping" (which was consistently passed off as appreciating women!). Argentines are just as bad. Parts of the US can be really hideous as well.

This issue is linked to a combination of "macho" society which is also sexually repressive. Add to this the issues of rural vs urban cultures and indeed a change at breath-taking pace, and there are cases (far too many of them) of women being mistreated. But to jump from that to how EVERY Indian woman is molested is a bit much!

SS

Your post is in an area called Grey. It is accurate and yet it is not completely true.
There is no doubt that many Indian women are largely second class citizens. The examples you quote must also be true. In general a women has to be many times careful than a man has to. Many freedoms that are available to men are not available to women. So, what you say is true.

But look at where we were 15 years ago. I had 4 women in my Engineering class of 225. These days it is anywhere between 25% to 40%. In many towns and cities it was difficult to find a women wearing jeans, not so today. 20 years ago it was difficult to find a women on the streets after 8 PM, not so today.20 years ago, a boy child was considered a boon. Not so today. Again, the above mentioned benefits are not across the social classes. But the fact that even middle and lower middle classes have started to change and significantly is a major achievement.

Yes, we still have a long way to go....

Not to generalize from my own experience (and then this is precisely what i go on to do!), but i still get stomach-aches when i think about the times when i went out with my sisters. we had to devise means and strategies. later, as i grew up (physically, not intellectually), i just could not understand why this was happening. true, it wasn't always direct molestation, but it was downright unpleasant, all the way. sure, it happens elsewhere too, of course it does. if i remember, it used to be called "eve teasing", and was understood to be some kind of sport! in the case of our country (like other places) much of it has to do with the degree of segregation of the sexes, repressive sexuality, over-concerned with chastity, virginity etc. etc. i'm talking about thirty years ago, so i guess things are changing as both men and women get used to each other in public spaces, as their presence gets routinized. In japan etc. there may be groping on trains at times, but this is usually done by sly, cowardly men (chikan in the local lingo) who would dare not do it openly..in most of these east asian societies, despite strong gendered norms, sexuality itself is pretty much accepted as not something that is taboo. nor is sexuality affected by religion...not saying this is the only explanation...but it is great to see half a million young men and women milling around let's say Shibuya in Tokyo at 3am, with never a hint of any trouble or even gendered tension. Such a relief to see and experience it. Same in HK or Taiwan, Singapore...

what kind of person would make a comment like this?

You should do that too to get even with men-kind - you know, many men might actually welcome it, unless you are buck ugly like most other bitter feminists. I would suggest a better way to get even - marry those buggers and rob them dry with alimony, file dowry or DV charges and throw them in jail for good. Serves them right.

T

Is that a rhetorical question? I have left a long trail of posts. So you should know that by now. Nothing highlights absurdity and generalizations better than absurdity and dark satire.

actually, kerty, nothing highlights absurdity and generalizations better than absurdity and generalizations... kinda like the ones you made!

kerty:

it was rhetorical

and

more

confession: i am shocked and awed by long unbroken passages...find them an eyesore and no matter how hard i try i lose track...(this is a personal weakness) so i skip them...which means i do not read your long passages...

and

this was rather short so i read it and because this is the only one i read...it failed to register on my Absurd and Dark Satire meter

;)

Kerty:

""While saving and civilizing Indians used to be a white men's burden , we have come a long way. Now saving Indian women is white women's burden and Sonia will do just fine.""

Vintage Kerty...sans satire

I wholly agree, SS, this is something that really does need to change.

much of it might have to do with the index of machismo. in most east asian societies (HK, Taiwan, Japan) etc. public machismo is very rare. in the domestic sphere of course it is pronounced, leading to DV etc...

Gosh! I am almost ashamed. People who did crime against woman be it men or women or children, are criminals and I wont like to defend them with any reason or for any reason. I will fully agree with SS, In India we are onlooker and won't say a word. It's not just about its happening on streets but also in big houses. Affairs of politicians. There misuse of power and keeping keeps and all we as Indians do is watch.

But what I am more ashamed of is of the people writing here on blogs (supposedly educated people) and trying to defend these crimes by every possible data they can get there hands on. I prey to god may girls in there houses have safe life.

I know my father, teaching us value of not just respecting a woman but also defending the respect of a woman. My sister always got preference over any of us two brothers and I am not even complaining. Because that's what my religion teaches me. And those are our family values. Not because they are weak because they deserve that respect. Thank you daddy. Thanks a lot that I am not a pervert and trying to pull on statistics to prove that the crime against woman is less or more in India and how there are crimes against man too. The truth is, yes Indian streets are unsafe for woman. I don't care they are less or more safe then other countries. What I know is that its unsafe degree doesn't matter. If I can not allow my daughter or sister or even mom to walk out alone in day time forget about night. I will call it unsafe. Let the condition be better then any other country or worse. For me it's my country and I won't take it.

Also, I will like to add. Molestation is not just physical molestation but also the way women are looked at. Anamika you may be right about not being physically molested but are you sure also about the way man look at woman and make them uncomfortable. I doubt that.

No excuse for any one to do crime on woman. I am a fan of Gandhi and would always believe on not hating the sinner but the sin but not here. If one does a crime against woman in front of me I will make potato mess out of him even if that means threat to my life. I would like to die as dignified man then to be alive as coward and can not call my self man any more.

Also, I will like to thank you SS. You are a Indian who feels strongly about India. And also it's good to see a woman fighting back. Keep the good work on. All the best!

BK

I am also a fan of Gandhi but he would a pervert in today's world for wearing loin clothes while surrounded by bevy of women assistants in his Ashrama. On several occassions, he confessed to even sleeping naked with some of them to test his Brahmcharya and passing the test successfully - now that would be molestation by anybody's standards, no? He totally neglected his wife, and one time, even asked her to leave him but she won't leave him as he had no where to go - I am sure many feminists would classify it a domestic abuse. We all know how he abandoned his children. He was a great national leader by any yardstick, but a lousy family man by traditional yardstick and a loser as a male, by modern yardstick.

BK

today i am very glad that i met a good Samaritan who help women. I have a small doubt my friend. you told that, you will make a potato mess, if you saw a person who insult a women. it's very nice, i appreciate you. But you keep your words in case of men insult by women, that's what's my doubt is? i think you will just leave that incident, because you don't feel bad if girls get more preference (as you told that).

I have another doubt, how it become good that giving preference to boy is bad, but giving preference to girl is good in the view of a good Samaritan like you. everybody need to treated equal, isn't it?

another doubt, are you sure that women won't look at men? women also look at men. But men enjoys it, women don't that the only difference. common thing is every body looks. Didn't you look any beautiful women, hey...no kidding. :D.

another more doubt, do everybody need to mirror your views and habits, is it necessary? people in blog writing their own feelings, bad or good they will be discussed or thrashed. I feel ashamed of your post,so you stop that? i think no, like that others isn't it?

i think, gandhi never told that, be a chivalrous man. may be he know that chivalry is also chauvinism.

BK, I made that point clear in my post. Yes cat calls and looks are uncomfortable, and depending on the situation, can even be intimidating or threatening. But can we stop behaving as if women are some fragile hot house flowers who will wilt at the first brush with something unpleasant?

As far as I am concerned if women can not manage to handle people LOOKING at them, we are in dire straits and we should all be bloody well keeping purdah! And that plays right into the hands of those who like women to remain powerless and hidden.

It is more logical to define molestation as linked to unwanted physical contact no matter how fleeting. Start adding "looking" to that category and you're on a slippery slope to utter silliness.

Again, I am not saying there isn't a problem, but can we stop getting hysterical about how NO Indian woman above some arbitrary age can dare deny molestation.

Its the look but no touch policy that most of us follow, can't go up to strangers and say- Stop looking at me.

That being said its creepy when people pass sexual remarks about others.

Deepti, I agree its creepy when people pass remarks, especially sexual ones. At the same time, that isn't a behaviour limited to India. At I think women would be doing themselves great harm if we start getting offended about every last remark that is passed - surely creating a general victim mindset (ie we have ALL been molested) is worse than facing down any dumb remarks that are passed on the street?

Anamika, I agree the behavior is not limited to India alone. In Singapore my sisters and I were followed by a group of guys who passed comments, obviously due to the language barrier we had no way of knowing what they said.

The thing is in public spaces especially cramped environments the likelihood of getting molested is high whether it be in public buses, crowded places of worship, touristy spots or on crowded streets in certain areas.

As a college goer I used to breathe a sigh of relief the day I wasn't subjected to touching or groin pressing. After a while it does wear a person down. Those who used the public transportation system narrated similar stories.

I wonder if it leads to victim mindset knowing most of us college going girls were facing similar problems. It just made us mad enough to want to do something to stop such acts.

There was an incident in Delhi where a Kenyan girl's clothes were ripped off by goons in a bus. People in the bus averted their eyes till a girl I know - Rashmi began to screamed and called the onlookers impotent cowards which finally had people beat the goons.

A rally was organized but that was about it. Things are bad here. No one cares and knowing that the same kind of stuff is happening all around the world doesn't solve the problem does it?

Anamika, Deepti

I agree with you both, this is reprehensible and a blot on any nation's culture.

Its good to see that most people on this blog think so. Perhaps we can decouple this to the some of the nationalistic feelings people have expressed and see this as an affront to human dignity - no matter where it occurs we will see more common ground.

Here is an interesting related link:

http://parisar.wordpress.com/2007/03/08/rape-and-the-us-sponsored-islamization-of-pakistan/

Must read on Mush and his metrosexual look and yes its on point : )

http://greatbong.net/2005/09/22/baise-moi/

D:
"In Singapore my sisters and I were followed by a group of guys who passed comments, obviously due to the language barrier we had no way of knowing what they said."

Quite, quite unusual. Were they Chinese guys, passing "racist" remarks...unless they were Singaporeans of Indian descent? Most Chinese Singaporeans would not do this...but it's not impossible...

SS and Anadiya,

My heart bleeds for you to live in this conditions.

It is often seen in India where even the leader Indira Gandhi was having many lovers but the people pretend they don't know about sax. Hypocritis. This woman and every brahmin woman in India is trained in Kamasutra so how can he be saying they don't have many lovers.

In my country every man knows India women are loving sex.

Moinzan, you must be jealous.

Sometimes, just as Smallsquirrel reacts to some desis because she thinks desis are criticising the US or being anti-american, I think some of us are reacting in the same manner. Her piece is not about pointing out that this happens only in India and nowhere else. I don't think that she intends to claim this. Regardless of where it happens, it stinks sky-high. Having said that, since I have observed this behaviour most in Delhi and northern India, I still get stomach-aches when I think about it. It is downright horrible what women have to go through, like running the gauntlet each day they step out. I am not saying what some should do or should not do, but commonsense tells me that being defensive about it is not too good an idea, just as smallsquirrel being defensive about the american government's policies is not a good idea either. Just trying to be kind of impartial here...the only standard here should be humanity, and not nations...

Jai Human (and Hanuman too, why not??)

Neusinger..

In order to be able to decouple it from nationalistic feelings, you will have to decouple it from feminist feelings too. And that will be easier said than done. Feminism being an integral to judeo-christian paradigm and western ideological landscape, it will certainly provoke strong counter-reaction in hindu and moslem part of the world, no matter how hard feminist ideology may try to ride on social dysfunctions and disguise behind issue-level politics.

kerty:

""I do not think men are capable of hatred of any woman, unless she is a feminist"'

????

aaman:

what is common here?


* "Poena"
* "Neusinger"
* "Moinzari"

;)

kerty:

"Feminism being an integral to judeo-christian paradigm and western ideological landscape, it will certainly provoke strong counter-reaction in hindu and moslem part of the world"

What the frigging FISH!!!????????????????????

CS, I have no way of knowing the content of their comments due to the language barrier but I don't think they were being racist, they passed comments and followed us around. And yes they were Chinese, dunno if they were Singaporeans

D,
Most unusual, which is of course, not at all to dispute your narrative. I get by in Mandarin and have lived in that part of the world for the better part of a decade, which of course does not mean that I know "the truth". But I am sure this did not happen everyday, as in, much of the time, nobody in Singapore or Malaysia really badgers women in quite the same way as it happens in Delhi etc.

Good night folks! stop waiting for Godot....

What happens to Indian when they start living abroad?

Sujai - For the record, I HAVE NEVER "gone around with bodyguards or male companions or in caged cars" but perhaps as a MAN you will now tell me EXACTLY what I - as a woman - experience/should experience in places as disparate as Jaipur, Delhi, Mumbai, Goa, Patna or Bhopal?

I have BACKPACKED through out India, taken roadways buses, and local trains, stayed in dharamshalas and hostels, since the time I was 18. I HAVE come across men who have passed comments or "looked" wrong. I have yet to be "molested" or "attacked.

I am not saying that molestation DOES NOT happen in India. But it doesn't happen ONLY in India! Its not a justification or an excuse but a reality check for those who make assumptions about how NOT ONE out of over 500 million Indian women can "dare claim that they have not been molested." So scroll back to what I had written before spewing forth more of your generalisations.

But just as I dont generalise from my personal experience to reach the conclusion that NO woman in India is molested, I resent the assumption that ALL women in India are molested - which is what SS had written, and obviously you endorse.

Moreover, I am not interested in what tottering IFS officers say in Canada but I do find your post highly offensive as it insiduously accuses those of us who work/live outside India of de-racination. It also makes assumptions about a poster's class, background and experience that you have no grounds for.

But then again, if you hadn't jumped on this particular bandwagon, I would have been thoroughly surprised...

Sujai:

""Some people go overboard and exonerate their mother countries of all crimes. In their view, their homeland doesn't have any problem.""

This defensive attitude, sometimes another iteration of the insecurity that springs from "what will the foreigners think of us"? (if we wash our dirty laundry in public) is so easy to observe. Pretty sad. Contrary to the impression generated by my obssessive posts, I have not been around on DC for too long! However, I do recall someone claiming that when they went abroad they were severe critics of the Hindutva brigade. A few months later he became its defender. Somebody also mentions a piece by the veteran journalist Prem Shankar Jha, precisely on this issue. Once again, social psychology explains more than reference to any facts or reality.

Sujai..

Conversely, there is large section of elites in India and abroad, whose inspirations, icons, ideas, activism come mainly from abroad, be it communist world, middle east or west, and they have monopolized themselves to be sole interpretors and arbiters, and their power rests on glorifying everything that is non-Indian and running down everything that has originated from India. They have been engaged in a crusade to re-engineer India in the image of their idealized utopias, be it west, middle east or communist heavens, never bothering for or holding their ideas accountable for chaos and dysfunctions inflicted upon India - on the contrary, exploiting the fall out of their ideas and activism to run down India even more and advance their power and crusade to de-Indianize India. Much of their activism centers around digging holes so people can fall in them and than demonize and exploit those who have fallen in order to feign fake moral self-righteousness and ideological imperative for their ideas and activism, or seek to pull some of the fallen out from the hole and pose as saviors of the fallen. Indian Media has acquired the role of obfuscating this malicious dynamics so people remain confused, divided and un-enlightened. Thus, this process has found its way to be elite and occupy mainstream and infected every structure and institution of India. It has many Indians and NRIs scratching their heads and reacting in a manner that Sujai has caricatured.

Kerty:

""Conversely, there is large section of elites in India and abroad, whose inspirations, icons, ideas, activism come mainly from abroad, be it communist world, middle east or west""

And then their are others, like Kerty who also live abroad, run pub-restaurants for example, and dream of re-importing preserved, presumably uncontaminated Dharma to India...while simultaneously policing would be polluters of the pure Indian spirit!

"Criticism is a true form of patriotism"

Kerty:

""They have been engaged in a crusade to re-engineer India in the image of their idealized utopias, be it west, middle east or communist heavens, never bothering for or holding their ideas accountable for chaos and dysfunctions inflicted upon India - on the contrary, exploiting the fall out of their ideas and activism to run down India even more and advance their power and crusade to de-Indianize India.""

You seem to have little faith in the basic intelligence of desis and indeed any other human being. A bit like that tired crutch of Macauley who is used to explain away all of British history in India. Apparently Macauley conspired to convert Indians into English speaking slave-babus, and all Indians promptly obliged. The irony of course is that such narratives assume that desis during the colonial period were morons and could do little more than lap up whatever schemes were devised by the likes of Macauley and his ilk. Ironical because when such cant emanates from self-proclaimed "nationalists", it unwittingly caricatures Indians as nothing but dupes who cannot think for themselves and are incapable of agency or making their own history....an ironical tribute to Macauley, even though such cant is intended to attack him.

Sujai,

I totally agree with you. I too find 'this woman's' comment only ranting about herself "I" and "Me" and "Myself "and "Moi". She fails to see other's point of view. I mean I care 2 hoots as to what happens in Argentina or Italy . These are awful examples. Her comment seems more like a travelogue and self ranting.

Every single day of my life since junior college every time I took the train ride from Malad to Churchgate, I had to make a special effort to tactfully steer clear of any "touching' 'pinching', 'brushing' etc that cheap men tried to attempt. And if anytime I was unsuccessful in defending, I got 'touched'. The same happened to my friends also.

The problem is that over the few years there were times that I even did not realize it and it became a way of life. The same game of tactfully steering clear of any "touching'..etc became a routine. It just settled in my sub-conscious mind.

I find it hard to believe that there exists a "woman" ( is she really) in India who has never got eve-teased or touched badly.

SS, this is a fine article. Thank you for providing your insight. And I love you for saying this.

bottomline: SS's discussion was about real issues in India. To argue that this happens elsewhere too does nothing to mitigate this sad, disgusting reality. More power to you SS and the women who suffer this crap on a daily basis.

Curious: how come none of the veteran DC members respond to Kerty? Am I, as they say, missing something ie. am I being trolled and don't even know it??

Oooops...seems that my poor little experience as an Indian woman is not acceptable to all those who love to think that THEIRS is the TRUE experience of the country.

But then, given that I didn't generalise to how MINE was the experience of ALL Indian women, I am guess its a bit too difficult for our desi-bashers to handle....well, enjoy complaining about that country where ALL WOMEN ABOVE THE AGE OF TWENTY (or twelve/six/three months) ARE MOLESTED! I am happy travelling/living in the other India...

PS: Any one else want to contribute their two annas worth while using a feminine pseudonym, this is the moment...

Anjali..

Now that you too have indulged in 'I', 'Me' and 'Moi', how does train ride in Mumbai equate with train rides elsewhere in India?

Whenever I have traveled in Mumbai trains, I have been literally sardined by everybody around me, barely able to not touch or be touched, and on many occasions, got even pushed out of train by the giant tides of exiting passengers, forcing me to catch next train for my onward journey. I thought what kind of life is this Mumbai. Then I was in Delhi for a year and commuted daily by buses, and boy, those bus rides still give me jitters just thinking about it. I have never seen anything like it ever since. I remember getting off bus half way just so I can throw up. One time, an elderly(40s) Bengali guy literally groped my privates and I could not even move away from him right away. Next day, I switched to a later bus.

Sad but true that train and bus rides in major metropolis are not pleasant places for anybody, men, women, children, elderly, pregnant, disabled and I can certainly understand why it would be a worst nightmare for ladies, even though ladies usually have their own ladies coaches in trains. But no special buses for ladies, where ladies are left high and dry to fend for themselves in a crowd packed like sardines. Another thing about train/bus experiences is that crowd usually become highly impersonal (and very personal for ladies) - you won't find any white knights in that crowd. A person could be dying in their midst and people will shove him aside to make their way to their work, never looking back - they can't let anything come in their way of daily commuting ritual.

Like others in this thread, I can also make a bold claim that I have never ever seen a woman molested or mistreated during when I have traveled in buses and trains - because I would have certainly beaten up such persons. In our town, I have done that number of times for far less severe transgressions. I can also say that none of the women in my family have been molested or abused in India - may be because they have never traveled alone in India.

However, there is no question that crowded situations can be very unsafe for women in India. And most of such situations can be avoided except commuting in trains and buses, going to theaters and fairs, standing in lines etc. Women try to cope with crowded situations by going out in a group, with a family, with a male. Safety in numbers. It allows others to raise hell and call for help.

There is also no question that non-crowded situations can be very unsafe for women in India. After dark, dark allies, being alone at isolated places - they are danger zones. Even men can risk being mugged or robbed there, and risks for women can be even more. But these are avoidable situations and most women are able to do just that.

It would be gross stereotyping if we assume that all women in India live in metros and travel alone in crowded trains and buses in India. Sizable Indian population don't.

Kerty:

""One time, an elderly(40s) Bengali guy literally groped my privates and I could not even move away from him right away.""

I had no idea that Bengali males grab another male's crotches in an ethnically distinctive manner. How could you tell he was Bengali?

Kerty:

""One time, an elderly(40s) Bengali guy literally groped my privates and I could not even move away from him right away. Next day, I switched to a later bus.""

""I would have certainly beaten up such persons. In our town, I have done that number of times for far less severe transgressions"'

So why did you not beat up this Bengali gentleman for grabbing your privates in public? Not transgressive enough for you huh? Try the _Journal of Polymorphous Perversity_ next time. Great journal...

Kerty:

"However, there is no question that crowded situations can be very unsafe for women in India"

0+0=0

Kerty;

" One time, an elderly(40s) Bengali guy literally groped my privates and I could not even move away from him right away. Next day, I switched to a later bus."

Could you not kick him in the groin? Or, somebody well versed in the true spirit of India, you could not be rude to an "elderly" person even when he was fiddling with your privates in public? Still curious. How DID you know that he was Bengali?

Kerty:

"There is also no question that non-crowded situations can be very unsafe for women in India."

While crowded situations can be unsafe for males like you? (re: the privates grabbing Bengali gentleman who was trying to do a job on you). So, in the end, it kind of balances out for men and women?

Kerty;

""I can also make a bold claim that I have never ever seen a woman molested or mistreated during when I have traveled in buses and trains""

Except of course for the crotch grabbing Bengali hentai man who molested you when you could not move?

Kerty: and your point is?

CS..

I knew you would like graphic details. I did stomp on his feet hard and he moved away to a different spot after that. And reason I knew he was Bengali because I had seen him speak Bengali in the bus as he was a frequent passenger on that bus. End of graphic details.

Kerty,

Not graphic enough for me! But I have imbibed some brew (not MGD!!), so I will refrain from writing something that I will regret tomorrow! (I'm not a totally mean, kameena person) Have a good evening my friend!

single malt cs?

notice am refraining the nyu, rutgers, mit route?

;)

single malt? sometimes...laphroaig (sp?)(ah...the peaty aroma), oban etc. love it, but not tonight...some cheap beer...after a mortgage (echoes of mortuary?), car loan etc. etc. etc. cheap beer is the only brew within monetary range (paul samuelson!)...mit, rutgers, NYU notwitstanding...

commonsesne

!!!so I will refrain from writing something that I will regret tomorrow!!!!

It could have been better if you take this decision before writing in DC or at lease before asking that graphical question. Can you ask the same explanation if such a situation faced by women. No you don't have that much courage.isn't it?

(I'm not a totally mean, kameena person) Have a good evening my friend!!!!!

did kerthy asked why you are telling this, did you feel so?

Well, whether its EVERY woman or not, its abs clear that MOST women in India have be