http://desicritics.org/ Superior South Asian bloggers on Culture, Media, Politics, Sport, Business, and Technology. en Copyright 2006 by the authors Thu, 22 May 2008 01:00:32 EDT http://backend.userland.com/rss BC custom software http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332871 Whoever said this "If marketing methods determined cult status then one wonders about religions that place their holy book in every hotel room even though all it does is gather dust over the years" Just because you donot read the holy book in a hotel room does not imply that others donot and even assuming that placing a bible in a hotel room has no influence on religious fervor, there is nothing that says cult behaviour is not driven by strong marketing. We folks like to believe that everything is driven by marketing. In fact in India we believe that the best sales and marketing organisation is one by the missionaries in India. a. They have identified their target segment accurately (poor lower caste folks) b. They use a wide varaiety of marketing platforms - Advertising, Consumer Promotions, Events, Multimedia etc c. They are available in most locations. (and are usually successful when there are no Govt institutions) d. They manage to sell a product that is of no use to anybody e. They are highly effective (The number of christians in the population is increasing faster than contraceptive penetration rates)..... Please dont take the above too seriously.... 332871@desicritics.org Thu, 22 May 2008 01:00:32 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332850 Sanjay G you said in your initial comment that discussing ISKCON philosophy is tangential to the discussion about this post and in your latter comment complained about the bhakti for Krishna philosphy of the ISKCON being ignored! This discussion was about whether the author says that ISKCON is NOT a part of Hinduism. She has no where in her article said this and if she has please point it out. Discussion about ISKCON philosophy would be moot especially if she didn't make any such remarks to begin with no? Unless of course we are all just grabbing at a random opportunity to criticize her "attitude" and call her "conceited" (#77) 332850@desicritics.org Wed, 21 May 2008 18:32:06 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332849 Sanjay G you said in your initial comment that discussing ISKCON philosophy is tangential to the discussion about this post and in your latter comment complained about the bhakti for Krishna philosphy of the ISKCON being ignored! This discussion was about whether the author says that ISKCON is NOT a part of Hinduism. She has no where in her article said this and if she has please point it out. Discussion about ISKCON philosophy would be moot especially if she didn't make any such remarks to begin with no? Unless of course we are all just grabbing at a random opportunity to criticize her "attitude" and call her "conceited" (#77) 332849@desicritics.org Wed, 21 May 2008 18:31:18 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332834 Sanjay G: "If marketing methods determined cult status then one wonders about religions that place their holy book in every hotel room even though all it does is gather dust over the years!" Sure, I agree! One must wonder about that! Why wouldn't "one"? 332834@desicritics.org Wed, 21 May 2008 14:33:21 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332820 @Jay #78: This fake bravado act might work in the WWE but I'm more interested in addressing the substantive issues with this article. There are, of course, multiple shortcomings, all of which have been raised earlier, but the typical response from the author and her gang of cheerleaders is bluster, emotive denials, personal attacks and issue avoidance. Case in point: even in your latest attempt at a response, once you get past the personal attacks, all you can come up about ISKCON is that you disapprove of their marketing methods and therefore they are a cult! No discussion of ISCKON philosophy/ practice etc - the fact that ISKCON philosophy is based on bhakti for Krishna is completely ignored in your worldview :-) If marketing methods determined cult status then one wonders about religions that place their holy book in every hotel room even though all it does is gather dust over the years! 332820@desicritics.org Wed, 21 May 2008 10:52:49 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332641 Yes, Kamal I acknowledge the heirarchy...thats why I suggested that the demi-gods file a petition with the National Labor Relations Board. Unionization is the best answer to such hierarchy. It will save the gods a lot of paperwork and the prayers can be delivered from respective temples based on union designations. 332641@desicritics.org Mon, 19 May 2008 20:45:17 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332631 Weren't there some reports of childabuse and property fraud w.r.t the I-conites? 332631@desicritics.org Mon, 19 May 2008 18:54:55 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332628 Aditi, please do not confuse the ignorance of a few individuals to the original purpose prabhupada has set out. There are lot of people who simply worship Krishna and consider it irrelevant to worship anyone else they are wrong in their beliefs both in our perspective as well as Prabhupadas. Prabhupada in his writings has explicitly declared the divinity of Jesus Christ many times. ISKCON maintains the god of the Christians, God of Muslims, God of all religiouns are one. Everything is connected to the one god including Ganesh, Shiva, Vishnu, Etc. They believe the supreme is Krishna so be it. There is non-sectarian scriptural evidence to prove that fact. Lets put something in perspective here. Ganesh is the son of Shiva and Parvati. Being the son automatically implies a hierarchy. So dont think a hierarchy doesnt exist because it does. Shiva is also the son of Brahma. Brahma was born out of the naval of Vishnu. There is clearly a hierarchy. However, demigods if you will deserve equal respect and praise. We should all bow before them and that was the message of Prabhupada even though many of his disciples disagree. Prabhupada scolded many of his disciples who questioned whether they should bow before Shiva. I will repeat this again. Gods are commonly worshipped for some material gain. This is not condoned by prabhupada or the ISKCON movement. Prabhupada had a lot to teach in a short amount of time. However, prabhupada gave them the essence of Vaisnava philosophy. BTW ISKCON does a lot of well fare work. They have their International Food For Life effort where they distribute prasadam to a lot of people in need. They have cow protection programs and active efforts to improve the situations in Africa. Not to mention anyone can go to a temple and get a free meal any day of the week =). 332628@desicritics.org Mon, 19 May 2008 18:43:35 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332622 Seema: Coming from countries rich in culture, history and religion Chandra: hahaha.....you mean India? :-) 332622@desicritics.org Mon, 19 May 2008 17:33:21 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332620 If following people around at airports isn't overzealous then I dunno what is. :) I was at an HR temple years ago on Christmas Day where the preacher told everybody that since Jesus Christ was a prophet and Krishna the supreme god, that makes Krishna greater in hierarchy and so on Christmas Day we should chant Krishna's name not celebrate the birth of Lord Jesus Christ by singing carols. Praising the prophet is undermining the God who sent him to Earth, he told his devotees who nodded vigorously. :D I had half a mind to ask him if we should have a saffron shirt clad, bald HR called "Someone Dasaa" go around distributing gifts to children rather than Santa since technically he works for the higher-ups in the hierarchy than Santa does. :D The second time I went to an HR temple I was saying some Ganesh shlokas that I was taught as a child and a priest walked up to me and asked me what mantras I was chanting. I told him and was stunned when he said "Make sure you chant the Hare Krishna mantra and not Ganesh mantra...Krishna is superior to Ganesh, they are all demi-gods. Krishna is the only true God". If Gods have such rigid hierarchy then the demi-gods should all form a union I think...I mean not getting a promotion through so many years of civilization is unfair and the National Labor Relations Board will see that. Jokes apart, I think it would be great if we can put Muslim, Evangelical, ISKCON etc fanatics in the same building and lock em up till they've fought it out so they can leave the rest of us in peace. There is so much more good that can be done in this world. There is disease, illiteracy, poverty, hunger, natural disasters that need to be dealt with and we all get but one life to do it. Yet all these people can discuss is religious rhetoric and didactic bull crap. It is frustrating. 332620@desicritics.org Mon, 19 May 2008 17:24:50 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332616 SanjayG: The author does not state anywhere in her article that ISKCON is not a part of Hinduism. Where did you read that? 332616@desicritics.org Mon, 19 May 2008 16:55:35 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332615 "this is due perhaps to the sheer ignorance of the author but methinks it is also indicative of a generally condescending, conceited attitude towards ISKCON, parents etc." Ahh! You have me all figured out Sanjay G :) You are so insightful! What happened, not enough East versus West debates for you on DC? 332615@desicritics.org Mon, 19 May 2008 16:52:47 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332614 Sanjay G: "As Kamal points out, this is due perhaps to the sheer ignorance of the author but methinks it is also indicative of a generally condescending, conceited attitude towards ISKCON, parents etc." Or maybe it is because on previous posts you've had your butt kicked by this very author? So you are habitually ganging up against her? :D Hahaha. You are such an opportunist and so obvious too. God, at least be a bit discrete! Me thinks, any religion that needs marketing personnel to stand at airports recruiting devotees has to be cult. Mistaking HR for Hinduism is an error. No two ways about it: they are simply NOT one and the same. 332614@desicritics.org Mon, 19 May 2008 16:49:50 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332612 Discussing ISKCON philosophy and whether - or how - it fits into the overall Hindu system is a bit tangential to the main theme of this post. However, the fact that people are even debating it is clearly due to the author settting herself up as judge and jury by (a) implying that ISKCON is not a part of Hinduism and (b) labeling Hare Krishna "overzealous". As Kamal points out, this is due perhaps to the sheer ignorance of the author but methinks it is also indicative of a generally condescending, conceited attitude towards ISKCON, parents etc. 332612@desicritics.org Mon, 19 May 2008 16:37:49 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332577 Ravi, Although it is not uncommon to hear devotees in ISKCON trying to remind everyone about Krishna, in many temples there are very high level discourses that take place as well. At the temple I go to, usually it involves practical discourse about the spiritual nature of living entities, what brings about suffering, how material nature was designed to work, etc. Discussions are usually related to everyday activities of the people however at a very philosophical level. The quality of a discourse usually depends on who was assigned to give the discourse that they. Every person is different in their presentation. As far as the kids leaving their family, that does indeed happen but more or less it is a personal choice and not something done by force. Devotees in the temple often times narrate how they came across Prabhupada and what made them give up their original lives etc. Yogananda's teaching are very profound and powerful. 332577@desicritics.org Mon, 19 May 2008 11:04:23 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332571 Aman: ""All religions are cults, psychotropic wish-fulfilment fantasies, and con jobs"" All religions begin as cults. Some do a better job of selling themselves to the public. After they are organizationally big enough, they start calling other groups in competition with them - "cults". 332571@desicritics.org Mon, 19 May 2008 10:20:55 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332566 Kamal, I have not read Prabhupada's books, but I have attended a few discourses in ISKCON. I am not particularly religious, but I really want to know what our ancestors thought and wrote about philosophy. What I found is that the level of discourse at ISKCON is very low. I contrasted that with the "mass" at SRF (Self Realization Fellowship Church/Temple) founded by Yogananda. I found that their discussions happen at a much higher level and they do not to bring in superiority/inferiority of individual dieties. They address real life situations in a very practical way and I was truly impressed. ISKCON appears to be cult. That's the perception I got especially after I read about some young people in their late teens who were pursuaded to give up their family and go live on ISKCON premises. I am not sure if it happens everywhere, but this happened in Bangalore during the 1990s. Ravi 332566@desicritics.org Mon, 19 May 2008 09:38:58 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332508 Please don't think I do not respect your opinions. It is just that some of things you say are misconceptions and not truth. Expressing an opinion is one thing. Saying something is one way when it can be objectively shown to be another is fair game. I have tried to offer you insights with real evidence that can be verified by anyone of any faith or religious denomination. I have NOT quoted anything from scriptures in my discussion with you. I have given you facts about the general philosophical ideas behind iskcon and hinduism. You are indeed entitled to your beliefs no disagreement there. 332508@desicritics.org Sun, 18 May 2008 20:43:23 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332507 Kamal general claims are not necessarily untrue, they are based on a majority of observations. Just because it is a generalization does not automatically disqualify it from being true. I am not here to defend anything or clarify my position. I told you what I think of Hare Krishna and ISKCON. I am entitled to my opinion. If you said the same about say Buddhism or Scientology or even my own school of thought, I would accept it as your viewpoint instead of asking you to provide empirical evidence. With maturity comes the willingness to accept other perspectives with grace. Nothing you have said in your long responses demonstrates that any of what I said incorrect. As I said in my earlier comment: You may have listed scriptures but to me written word does NOT constitute Ultimate Truth. 332507@desicritics.org Sun, 18 May 2008 19:57:29 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332501 Jay, you make very general claims about a group. If you want to speak generally at least make sure your general statements are correct. 332501@desicritics.org Sun, 18 May 2008 19:27:19 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332500 someone once said: "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge" 332500@desicritics.org Sun, 18 May 2008 17:12:09 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332497 I am not reading your lengthy responses because I find them very didactic and bookish which to me is fundamentally contradictory to the very essence of faith and living. My "school of thought" is spirituality and didactic terminology does not define spirituality (it is more so a state of mind and deed than anything else). You may have listed scriptures but to me written word does not constitute Ultimate Truth. Hope you find peace and moral enlightenment in books and "fundamental concepts" Kamal. 332497@desicritics.org Sun, 18 May 2008 17:00:23 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332496 Ok you seem to not read my comments correctly. ISKCON is not an offset of any other religion. I have repeated to you many times that ISKCON is Vaisnavaism, one of the 3 major schools of thought you will find in India. The beliefs of ISKCON are shared across the board with other Vaisnava groups if you will. Prabhupada has a guru and it was the order of his guru that lead him to bring the religion westward. Prabhupada came alone so all the work was done by him but the knowledge he presented was not new and made up. Why are you not reading my lengthy posts? I listed all the major scriptures of India that are involved in ISKCON. Bhagvad Gita is an introductory study to other Vedic literatures. Hinduism is monotheistic. There is a concept of God being superior to others. There is a hierarchical order to the Universe, according to vedic scriptures, and Ganesh, Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, Durga, you name it are all part of that order. You're critiques are fine, they just lack subtantial evidence to support your claims. Experience gives you so much but clearly you lack fundamental concepts pertaining to the views of hinduism as a whole. 332496@desicritics.org Sun, 18 May 2008 16:48:37 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332495 Kamal: A cult is one where under the leadership of a single leader or his teachings a following is established which is an off-shoot of another religion. In cult behavior, morality, ethics etc are defined not by human standards or by a person's own reasoning but instead by whats said in a book. A cult is one where the religion is propagated by using media or constant preachings which are all based on the teachings of one person. I don't have to give you any "evidence" to back up what I think of HR. I am free to form an opinion about practices that I observe. You on the other hand are not obligated to believe me. If ISKCON is not a cult then it must be a religion right? If its a religion by itself then its most definitely not Hinduism because Hinduism itself does not preach ONLY the Bhagvad Geeta and most importantly Hinduism is NOT monotheistic. A religion is not defined by what festivals are celebrated but by what the majority of the teachings propagate. So whether you celebrate Mahashivratri or not is irrelevant. I have been to plenty temples...not just ISKCON. They give me a feeling of peace and strengthen my faith somehow (it could be plainly psychological). People holding their own amidst propaganda may be "wonderful" people but those who dismiss relevant critique as propaganda are wonderful people in serious denial. 332495@desicritics.org Sun, 18 May 2008 15:03:45 EDT http://desicritics.org/2008/02/16/002244.php#comment-332473 Heh, perhaps:) Anyone watching the match? We need some cricket articles 332473@desicritics.org Sun, 18 May 2008 07:28:59 EDT