Do You Know Your ABCDs?

seema is better and way shorter than MN.....

welcome:)

and more on ABCDs later

I always found the ABCD label, like most labels, kind of offensive too. sure, you have the stereotype because some are like that. but a lot are not. I get pissed, too, when people ask if my daughter is going to be an ABCD. I say no! she's an IBNCHD (indian born not confused half desi).... :)

@Seema:Our parents conscious (and sometimes over the top) attempts at preserving our Indian-ness forms the basis for some of the "confusion" detected in the young people raised in America.

Incomplete, shallow, simplistic.

The real fault lies in the system - the American melting pot system in this case - that seeks to define and project the values & norms of the dominant group (WASP male) over everyone else. It forces all newcomers to adopt these dominant norms or perish. And when, through an accident of history, you attain power and wealth, you feel vindicated both by your belief in your own superiority and the necessity to "educate" and "better" others.

The American system fails to treat differences as natural and fails to regard the values of all communities as legitimate. Well funded academic research and think tanks manufacture reams of sociological & anthropological "research" to denigrate the cultural beliefs, norms, practices, values - even thinking - perceived as different from the dominant alpha.

Needless to say, this "academic research" is deployed to legitimize the de-legitimizing of all those norms and values that are perceived to be different from that of the dominant alpha group in America. From the university "factories", it cascades down to all forms of media & entertainment, into schools, textbooks, becomes part of public & private discourse.

In ABCDs, this negative portrayal becomes internalized over time as a closely held belief system as they come of age in America. They have little choice in the matter.

Paradoxically, ABCDs never really become truly "American" even after years of this subtle brainwashing and later self-fulfilling, self-orientalization. They simply cannot - at the very edge, the "one-drop" rule applies. Even if a single drop of blood is found to be Indian, you cannot really be an authentic WASP. Using Naipaul's phrase, ABCDs can be said to be only 'half-made'; or to possess only a semblance of authenticity; the 'not yet' - forever in Chakrabarty's "the waiting room of history"

Not Indian, never real Americans. Hence, the confusion.

here we go again with Sanjay and his ever-present "blame america" broken record....

sanjay... one question... is there EVER a time where free will and personal responsibility come into play?

Sanjay #3: Insightful post. My experience corresponds with much of what you say.

temporal: thanks for the welcome. Lookin forward to your comments.

smallquirrel: IBNCHD...whew! :)

sanjay: whatever.

Seemie!!! Welcome to DC :) Nice post.

Loved this sentence in your article in particular:

"Come to think of it, the phrase ABCD inherently and if taken literally is not a negative one; quite frankly, the "confused" state can foster deep thought leading to positive growth and change. This is perhaps what allows us to adopt the best of both Asian and American culture"

So true! I have found that my own confusion often leads me to sit and examine my thoughts and actions better.

Beware of those that will try and explain the root of YOUR "confusion" to you when it is pretty clear that you and only you can really tell us why you are confused or are perceived as confused.

Keep writing.

Yes "Seemie", beware equally of The Gatekeepers - all those who want you to take the blame personally rather than the oppressive system in which you are but an insignificant cog.

Sanjay G: Don't ever call me "seemie" again. My name is Seema. If you think the American system is "oppressive" then I don't know how'd feel in other parts of the world.

The debates of the 80s still continue it seems

In order to understand the likes of Sanjay G all one has to do is reverse the ABCD tag to DCBA: Desis Confused By America

:D

While I reject the more extreme part of Sanjay's comment, especially the part about the second generation never being able to become "real Americans", I nevertheless think he has one valid point. That is the "melting pot" model of American immigration. Despite the advent of "multiculturalism" in the 1990's, the predominant requirement for new immigrants is still "assimilation" rather than "integration". This is in contrast to a country like Canada, whose "cultural mosaic" model of immigration not merely allows, but encourages immigrants to retain their original roots and cultures, while still becoming full participants of the Canadian nation.

While I saw some people refer to themselves as "CBCD's" during the 90's, when the "ABCD" term first came into vogue in the U.S., I don't know if it ever really took off as much in Canada, and if there was ever the kind of hostility between foreign students from India and local students of Indian origin in Canadian universities as there was on American campuses. Can anyone enlighten me?

With changing composition of the national population, there has been a significsnt change in the definition and image of "American" among Americans in the last decade and a half, one proof of which is in the successful presidential campaign of Barack Obama. But I think Canada is still ahead in this respect, in terms of having more Canadians of Indian origin in elected offices, and earlier than in the U.S.

@Seema Dhindaw: If you think the American system is "oppressive" then I don't know how'd feel in other parts of the world.

Not sure about "other parts of the world", but of those countries that supposedly welcome diversity, pluralism etc via immigration or other means, the American system has to be the most oppressive.

Other nations like Canada, Australia etc. have rejected American style identity-oppression, preferring the more benign multi-culturalism model. While the latter too is flawed as implemented, it does represent a significant improvement over the American.

Imo, in terms of handling diversity, there is no better model than India's.

@Chandra: In one sense, you are correct that this debate is indeed passe but perhaps not in the way you mean. It is an irrelevant debate because, in today's era of globalization and an economically multi-polar world, people will increasingly take their talents where they are accepted for who they are. Societies that are heavily dependent on immigrants/ imported talent will feel the pinch sooner or later.

In another sense, this debate is quite current. Note how Australia has publicly apologized for their policy of assimilating aboriginal children into white society.

Seema: Indulging Sanjay G is detrimental to discussion. He has set ideas and will not change those no matter what facts indicate. I would urge you to ignore him. He is like a desi Ann Coulter.

Chandra: On one hand I do concede that the origin of the term ABCD and the controversy surrounding it was prominent in the late 80s. However I have to point out that this debate is now relevant in a different context: The present day westernized Indian crowd can no longer claim to hold any cultural high ground in calling kids born in the US "Confused". The increasingly Westernized youth in India cannot point fingers when they themselves are aping the West. So in a sense this debate is relevant in current times as well.

I always thought the "Confused" in ABCD comes from the position of Indian born Americans caught between Americans who are prejudiced about them being Asians and on the other hand, Indians prejudiced about them being Americans. And they are not sure who they are closer to or resemble more.

I am a graduate student in the US and I know Indians who have such opinions about ABCDs. I don't think they ever tried to find out the truth. Probably the blame is on movies like American Desi etc which propagated such thoughts.

@#14 Aditi:On one hand I do concede that the origin of the term ABCD and the controversy surrounding it was prominent in the late 80s.

In North America, desis started arriving in relatively large numbers only in the 1960s, 70s and beyond. This was the FOB generation and their kids came of age in the 1980s and beyond. It was at this time that the 2nd gen first interacted as adults with new FOBs and with other Indians as potential marriage partners. So, it is not surprising that ABCD'ism appears to be a 1980s issue & this was the time when it first gained prominence.

However I have to point out that this debate is now relevant in a different context: The present day westernized Indian crowd can no longer claim to hold any cultural high ground in calling kids born in the US "Confused". The increasingly Westernized youth in India cannot point fingers when they themselves are aping the West. So in a sense this debate is relevant in current times as well.

This, of course, mixes up two very different types of "modernized" Indians. The ABCD or confused subtype are often characterized as coconuts - brown on the outside but are white on the inside. This the generation that been put through the cuisinart of the American "melting pot" machinery. Otoh, the other type appear white on the outside but are brown on the inside, like a newly white-washed brick wall. They may seemingly adopt or "ape" some of the outward garb, mores etc of the West but remain "Indian Inside".

For either type, geography and ethnicity is irrelevant as either can be produced anywhere, to anyone. To the ham-fisted, both look the same from the outside, consequently the inability to tell them apart.

The issue is not about the 1980s or that some imaginary "high cultural ground" has been lost. To the extent that ABCD'ism is a result of identity oppression, it can never become irrelevant.

adi and ss:

not all sanjays are created equal!

from the linguistic footprint this sanjay does not appear to be the "whining" sanjay of old

(sanjay G - there is another sanjay - a closet hindutvadist posing as self confessed 'irrational' atheist - out of brampton, ont., canada)...and the ladies based on their past experiences with him are giving you a short shrift)

there is only one sanjay garg, temp... and that is him....

temp: This is not Sanjay...but he is Sanjay Garg. Most definitely :) The whole "oppressive American system" crap, criticism of "The West"...gosh, this is SO Sanjay Garg! He didn't even have to type out the "arg" part of his name. We'll do it for him..


ARGHHHH :)

ok ladies

i ... er.....obviously don't know the sanjays

(retreating under the igloo)

;)

A very balanced and objective view, Seema. I myself have come across an overprotected "ABCD" girl in the US. Her parents had probably raised her in the manner you have described.

In another instance, one of my distance relative is raising his kids again in a manner which could be clearly described as "right-wing religious" even by Indian standards. Don't know what's the point of all this.

Ok, can I play devil's advocate here with the disclaimer that I personally don't like any of these lablels, that I don't ever use them, and most regular people are beyond them?

I guess to FOBs like us (yes, ABCDs are not the only ones with offensive nicks) the C in the ABCD was not because of the perceptions that Seema described in her well-written article. That is, the C was not because people thought these kids were easy, slutty, princesses.

But rather, it was, how shall I say this, a certain hyperIndianism and being sort of out of step with modern India, while claiming to be super Indian. Does that make sense?

This is not the say that the writer or indeed most 2nd and 3rd generations are like that, but is the stereotype. So, let's explore this stereotype a little.

I rememeber a mom at a party say that her 2nd gen kids were much more Indian because she was learning bharatnatyam and her brother's kids in Bombay were not, because they were learning ballet. To most people living in modern India, India is not just bharatnatyam. It can also be ballet. It can be much more than that. It can be Kishore Kumar songs *and* jazz.

Through my niece who lives on campus in the Boston area, I came to know a group of really nice 2nd gen girls. They are hard-working, intelligent and bound for great things in life. They, also initially, refused to believe that Muslims could be Indian, for instance and insisted on referring to my niece Pakistani, and most interestingly couldn't understand *why* she might be offended.

For one of these girls, India was just the small village in Tamil Nadu her parents took her to and it involved statements like girls don't sit on chairs in India, or that all Indians eat certain things, or that Indian girls can't go out by themselves.

For another India was Punjab and she couldn't get the idea that somewhere else in India kids went dancing at night and that girls could travel by themselves.

Do small-town Punjab and a village in TN exist? And perhaps the majority of people in India might even live that way. But there are others who live different lives and they are not un-Indian because of that. Of course they do. But the C label comes up when some 2nd gens label only those realities as India. Just as the U.S. is a diverse society with multiple realities and ways of living, so is India. Perhaps even more so.

When I first arrived I thought this young 2nd gen's head would explode when I told her I'd spent 3 months traveling in Garhwal, and that my traveling companion was a guy. "Indian girls don't do that," she said. And that was 16-17 years ago.

India did not march to a full stop in the 1970's when most 2nd gen parents left. It continued to evolve and grow and with it did the lives and ways of living of people who live there.

Young people living there are not *aping* the West. They are living international lives just as their counterparts do all over the world. And that does not mean that they are also not part of the traditional lives that still go on. So a young person might go to a disco wearing a belly shirt one night and then be dressed in a salwar kameez to celebrate Diwali the next. It's all part of being Indian.

Seema, I agree with you that confusion is actually a positive thing and all of us are confused though some hide it better than others I suppose.

Like Ledzius I guess I have met many more of the 2nd gen kids brought up in a certain ultra religious (fundamentalist) way than the spoiled, rich, princess type.

I can certainly understand the frustration and anger a 2nd gen might feel upon being labeled ABCD. And perhaps articles like these can lead to some dialog about why this stereotype and label evolved. And to truly understand, all of us FOBs and ABCDs will probably need to dig deep, confront some unpleasant facts, before moving forward.

A thought-provoking article, Seema. Thanks!

Here in the UK, the second generation kids are closer to the locals as opposed to us.It really bugged me when I sat with a few of these morons at LORDs with them supporting the Indian cricket team versus their country England. ......It is their fundamental right but I cannot understand what prevents them from supporting England.....

@Jawahara: But rather, it was, how shall I say this, a certain hyperIndianism and being sort of out of step with modern India, while claiming to be super Indian. Does that make sense?

At the level of the individual this may be accurate but if one were to get a bunch of Indians together, we would agree that the notion of Indian-ness goes well beyond.

It would include things like religious freedom, cultural pluralism, freedom of self-expression, comfort with balancing between duties and rights, supporting family values, care of and respect for elders, respect for the diversity of local traditions/ practices/ cultural expression as well as for High Culture, knowledge of an Indian langauge etc. These are some of the basics that stand the test of time and have little to do with how India has changed since the 70s.

Learning Bharatnatyam or other classical Indian dance forms normally leads to deep appreciation of and respect for High Culture. Not as an exotic, multicultural, museum artifact to be trotted out annually as a public relations exercise.

Many FOB parents make their kids learn classical dance or visit the temple which is not done by their counterparts in India. This is because, unlike in India, 2nd gen kids do not soak in Indian-ness via osmosis, merely by virtue of living/ interacting/ coming of age in India. Outside India, this has to be done explicitly, piecemeal. Learning Ballet does not help you with Indian High Culture but does make one cross-culturally more aware, increasing the acceptance of pluralism.

Jawahra #22

What you are saying is commonsense. So how come I didn't say it?

Yes, this acting out of the "hyper", "uber" Indian (or any other nationality/ethnicity) is the core issue.

Sanjay, I agree with you about 2nd gens not being able to absorb Indianness by osmosis and the difference between culture as a social construct and high culture.

But those very facts take us back to the confusion issue. Cobbling together an India and an idea of Indianness through these isolated ideas does create some dissonance I'm sure. At the most what is being created is an identity of just one region, place, household in an India that has since moved forward and in which other over-arching influences do not enter. Yes, India is about eating spicy food, but it's also about eating sattu :-). And this is without going into the realm of high culture.

Of course, young people the world over are confused...even in India. It is an age of discovery, learning, and curiosity. So, in that sense 2nd gens have just another layer of confusion.

Commonsense #25: what can I say? your commonsense must be contagious. :-)

J:

""Of course, young people the world over are confused...even in India."

They are not so much confused as, as you point out, finding out for themselves, trial-error routine. They appear to be confused from the point of view of "smug" onlookers...

At the end of the day, much of this discourse has to do with genealogies of so-called "purity" versus the reality of hybridity/mongreality. Regardless of what one talks about: religion (fundamentalism), caste (pure vs. half-caste), nationalism (real vs. "fake"), capitalism (so-called free-market vs. mixed economies), socialism (so called pure vs. market socialism). One can imagine how much more complicated it gets when it comes to social identity. Most of us struggle against hybridity and our real mongrel beings, yearning from the unattainable purity. Unlike some enlightened folks like me (sarcasm alert) me who revel in it and embrace it by constantly on the alert for the accumulation of chips on our shoulders...

As for so-called high-culture, there are no clear-cut boundaries. Shakespeare was originally low-brow culture, became high, then again almost low-brow due to the movie industry etc. Same for any art-form: opera, Andy Warhol, Bharat Natyam...ah, the riddles of culture!

Sanjay:

""It would include things like religious freedom, cultural pluralism, freedom of self-expression, comfort with balancing between duties and rights, supporting family values, care of and respect for elders, respect for the diversity of local traditions/ practices/ cultural expression as well as for High Culture, knowledge of an Indian langauge etc.""

In other words, a rich global cosmopolitan culture. Nothing to do with India in particular. Hollywood images of America notwithstanding, whatever you mention here, can be found in America too...just inflected differently, hence appearing "foreig", ie. non-Indian. And however negatively we might stereotype American society (eg. no respect for elders, high divorce rates, etc. etc. etc.) the same issues are appearing in India too...changing social structures, creating similar situations, inflected in culturally specific ways...

Example"?? In many big melas, like the Kumbh Mela in Allahabad, are prime location for some people to deliberately "lose" their parents since they don't want to be bothered by them anymore. They hope that some charitable organization will "find" them and take care of them. In traditional Japan, many elderly "voluntarily" walked away from their kids to die in isolated mountains, when they felt they were a "burden" for their kids (the movie, _The Ballad of Narayama_ captures this well). How is all this different from us Indians feeling superior over them Americans who send their parents to old-age homes. And even this is happening in India too...

As they say: same shit, shat differently due to different cultural veneers. My shit is better than yours argument...(to come back to J's shitty post earlier)

seema:

continuing with #1:

confused or confusing

both.

the children born outside the motherland grow up in a different environ, go to school in a different set up and acquire values that are in shades "different" than those of their parents and their parents motherland

when these children visit motherland there are times when they are not able to comprehend the values (or lack of them) in the folks over there

this results in their confusion

***

for the children raised in motherland, they also imbibe values from "their" surrounding

let me illustrate with a minor point

my kids born here respect the policeman... here and there

their cousins (there) skoff off at the local policeman and certainly do not respect them

they find our kids attitude "confusing"

bus, ab tak kay liyay itna hee!

@Jawahara: But those very facts take us back to the confusion issue. Cobbling together an India and an idea of Indianness through these isolated ideas does create some dissonance I'm sure.

Among those facts that contribute to the confusion is one you missed: America's melting pot idea which requires all newcomers to shed their historic identities and adopt the ways of their new country. Under pain of exclusion (assimilate or be marginalized), immigrants are required to absorb the ways of the "host" society, while cutting to varying degrees their connection to their native culture.

As if cultural displacement weren't enough, this added dynamic of a jealous state deploying its powerful machinery make you forget/ hate/ cut your cultural connections adds to the angst and torture of the 2nd gen.

Suggesting that "2nd gens have just another layer of confusion" without examining the role of the melting pot idea is gatekeeping, imo. No wonder works like The Namesake get prized by the establishment - it too depicts the psych torture and angst of 2nd gens merely as "cultural displacement".

At the most what is being created is an identity of just one region, place, household in an India that has since moved forward and in which other over-arching influences do not enter

First of all, there is nothing wrong with creating local identities. Part of being Indian is the freedom to forge one's own identity as well the acceptance of numerous localized identities different from one's own. Not sure why this is an issue. Second, there is a rather a large disconnect between your perception and what I hear from virtually every overseas Indian I meet. They never tire of informing me that "kids in india have become more even more advanced than the kids here". I'm not convinced your depiction is an accurate reflection of reality.

Sanjay G:

Let people be who they are, who they want to be, or who they don't want to be...don't get too worked up. The melting pot model is wrong and will never work, never did..despite the govt. machinery at it...

The zebra is all worked up as he has the exact same number of black and white stripes. Prays to God, "Dear God, you must tell me, am I white or black...I am so confused about my identity". God shouts back "Don't worry about your identity so much. You is who you is".

Jawahara: Sanjay Garg's extremely good vocabulary and remarkable sophism all lead to one conclusion: America is the root of all chaos, all evil and all things bad. Everybody's confusion, troubles, discomfort can be somehow traced to the faulty "Western system". Over the past year or so that I have been on DC all his comments have led to only this one inference.

If you ask him how he concluded this, he will list a few professors, some books and then if nothing works will promptly announce that you are a "gatekeeper" for this system and lastly will resort to insults about how little you know or understand about this "Western" scheme. If you counter his insults he will quite pompously declare that he won't "dignify personal attacks with a response". It is a distinct pattern with all the dicussions he has been a part of thus far.

All you have to do is read this to get a gist of his views....

"this added dynamic of a jealous state deploying its powerful machinery make you forget/ hate/ cut your cultural connections adds to the angst and torture of the 2nd gen"

To him this is what America is. One only wonders why he would then remain in the US and subject himself to the powerful overtures of a "jealous state" :)

Aditi, how right you are? You know America's melting pot is making me change my name to Jane and to take up line dancing instead of bhangra. But maybe Sanjay is staying on to lower the temperature of the melting pot.

And, btw, I am not the Gatekeeper, I am Zool (and if someone gets that....they're old...like me :-))

yes and frankly I think what he's saying is grossly oversimplified and greatly exaggerated.

here is what he claims:

America's melting pot idea which requires all newcomers to shed their historic identities and adopt the ways of their new country. Under pain of exclusion (assimilate or be marginalized), immigrants are required to absorb the ways of the "host" society, while cutting to varying degrees their connection to their native culture.

Hmmm.. how so? really? let's examine this statement bit by bit starting with "shed their historic identities" hmmm, I would say that immigrants coming thru ellis island might have been forced to change their names. now, people coming to the US not only do not change their names, but continue to speak their native languages at home, continue cooking native foods, continue to celebrate native festivals. There are buddhist temples, hindu temples and islamic mosques. there are celebrations in public schools of different ethnic cultures, foods and traditions. There are restaurants which offer all these kinds of foods. There are courses even in community colleges about regional cooking styles, languages and native dance. There are ethnic day schools for people who do not wish to educate their children with the masses. There are stores catering to every community you can imagine. There are women wearing burquas, sarees, salwars walking on the strees of every major city I have visited.

OK next point.. assimilate or be marginalized. Hmmm... meaning what exactly? In my last job we had women coming to work in sarees and men taking time of to pray their obligatory 5 times a day. We special ordered meals for vegetarians. We not only celebrated christmas but also diwali and other holidays. this was not an unusual office place. No one thought it at all strange.

not sure what your point is sanjay. part of moving to another country is making some changes. the US, for the most part, does pretty well in that area. it is not perfect. yes, we require people to learn english. I have no problem with that as it is our national language. and some places are more accepting than others. but it is that way everywhere.

let us compare the US with India. You wanna talk shedding identities? I am automatically labeled christian. Many people here have never heard of a Jew and do not care to make a distinction, so on every government form I have been forcibly titled a christian simply because I am white.

anyway, you choose to take personal responsibility right out of the equation at every turn. my family chose to retain language, food, ties to family back home. that is the choice of every individual. and yes, for someone who is white it is a bit easier, I agree. but I have plenty of Nigerian, Pakistani, Indian, Japanese, Chinese, etc friends who have managed to retain what they wanted. They do not feel forced to do anything!

It is not a zero sum game unless you make it so, Sanjay. I bet you have some kind of guilt complex that is making you feel disconnected, so you blame the US when in fact if you do not know Hindi/Gujarati/Malayalam (or whatever your family speaks), cannot make a chappathi or pulao, and forgot all your poojas, it is not the fault of the US dear. It is all on your head.

How the melting pot works, how it has changed & evolved over time and how it intersects with the Whiteness phenomenon in America are huge topics in their own right. This is perhaps not the place for it.

The existence of temples (built primarily by the FOBs, certainly not ABCDs) as also the success of Bollywood represent a stubborn & persistent connection back to the historical culture and homeland. This remains a major headache for the melting pot. Which is why both phenomena are being actively studied and minutely analyzed in American universities. Diana Eck's misleadingly named and anything but "Pluralism Project" cataloged, studied, analyzed, recorded in minutest detail every Hindu/ Sikh/ Buddhist temple in America. Small or large.

ABCDs do not build temples, FOBs do. Nor do ABCDs visit the temple once they reach the age of majority. A perfect example how the melting pot suppresses diversity, freedom and pluralism.

For the purposes of this discussion, it is sufficient for Indians to be made aware of the causal connection between ABCD'ism & the American melting pot. The author in her "blame everyone except the real culprit" mode ends up targeting first the parents and then the poor, unsuspecting visiting Indians! Stockholm + battered person syndrome rolled into one?

ABCDs do not go to temple? jesus, sanjay... you're something else. I guess I need to remind all the people I know to stop attending then!

I think you're just bitter.

you cannot counter my argument ever, so you just say it is too big or ignore when the fact is that your overgeneralizations do not hold water.

Sanjay G:

""ABCDs do not build temples, FOBs do. Nor do ABCDs visit the temple once they reach the age of majority. A perfect example how the melting pot suppresses diversity, freedom and pluralism""

So it is the melting pot forcing some folks to stay away from temples? Suppression? Heard of "persecution complex"? Man, you really need to talk to someone who can inject some commonsense in you...fast...

Sanjay G:

""ABCDs do not build temples, FOBs do.""

Actually, neither of them do. They just contract it out to professional builders (0+0=0)

Sanjay G:

""it is sufficient for Indians to be made aware of the causal connection between ABCD'ism & the American melting pot. "'

None are as confused as those who assume:

1. That ABCD's are confused.
2. Take the melting pot metaphor as a concrete reality (watch out for all those signs and services in Spanish...)
3. who have mega-messiah complexes, ie. want to save others from their identities...

Sanjay..

Political consensus in favor of immigration in USA rests on America remaining as a melting pot - that immigrants can be melted within a generation or two. Grudging acceptance of multiculturalism in recent years by political Left in USA has predictable reaction from political Right towards issue of immigration. Now that globalization has rattled the core constituencies(unions, blacks, working class etc) of American Left too, immigration have become a favorite political whipping boy and we will see radical shifts in American attitude towards immigration in coming years.

Majority of immigrants in USA are Hispanic who remain socially and culturally unassimilated in USA - so the top priority remain assimilating them linguistically first - it manifests as English-first opposition to bilingualism. Asian immigrants have escaped the radar of melting pot activism because melting-pot's primary focus has remained on Hispanics. Plus, Asian immigrants have already embraced English and education. Asians have maintained social and cultural roots and identities because melting-potters have not seriously gone after them yet as they are hoping that magic of melting pot will work on 2nd or 3rd generation of Asian immigrants and that once flow of FOB ebbs, multi-culturalism will die a natural death. Don't be confused that recent wave of politics against illegal immigration is only about illegals - it is frontal assault on very ideological foundation of immigration, period, and by the time issue of illegal immigration is over and done with, nation will be devoid of its political will for open-ended immigration. So multiculturalism can not bank on FOB to sustain itself for long period of time. By that time, ABCDs, now outnumbering their Desi Immigrant parents and FOBs will be ripe for plucking into a melting pot. No more half-way desis. Fully uprooted, alienated, de-culturaized and reprogrammed Americans of Indian descent. Like African Americans who retain no trace of African values or culture, except sentimental connection that is purely rhetorical and academic. They are throughly assimilated and melted lot who must negotiate their well-being by becoming a fodder for social, cultural and political experiments of dominant political forces of a nation. And that is the fate that awaits for those racial minorities who have no political clout in numbers and no social or cultural roots to negotiate or fall back on. I do not see such bleak future for ABCD - because even if they are half confused, they are half-not-confused - that means most will realize the stakes that unknown twists and turns of future offer them and how important their social/cultural capital can be for negotiating their safe passage thru uncertain future.

Sanjay..

One can not fully understand trends like melting pot, ABCD, multiculturalism etc without understanding phenomena of immigration in USA and one can not fully understand phenomena of immigration without understanding larger politics of cold war and now post cold war.

While it is true that USA is a land of immigrants, but it was not always so for non-whites. It was cold war and its imperative to create allies among non-white nations that made America open up to rest of the world. While USSR relied on closing its borders and forcing its people with its iron fist, USA responded by opening its borders and showcasing people lined up to join american values. In Russia, people waited to get out, while people around world waited in line to get inside America. America tried to create and play up that contrast between two super powers. World throwing their hungry, persecuted and freedom seeking men and women to the american shore gave affirmation of superiority of American values - any notion of immigrants retaining their ethnic, cultural or non-american identities flew on the face of such touted superiority of American values, and thus they had to be melted away. That was the rationale for opening up America to immigrants. The notion of multi-culturalism was antithesis of superiority of American values. Both political parties used notion of melting pot as justification to continue to support world-wide immigration to USA - without melting pot, that political consensus for immigration could never be maintained. Pro-immigration lobbies argued that immigrants will melt into American pot in matters of one or two generations. But than cold war ended and it changed all calculations.

In post cold war era, there are no overriding reasons to carry on the baggage of cold war politics - maintaining open border immigration. On the other hand, Islamic Jehad replaced cold war players. Fight against terrorism now gives urgency and justification to seal American borders and scrutinize all those immigrants who are inside american borders. What has given legitimacy to multiculturalism is american ambition to become unipolar super power in a post cold war world - USA now have to showcase that it represents the world, that all religions and cultures and races are represented in USA, and hence American political process represents the will of whole world - America needs to demonstrate that moral authority to stake claim to be sole super power. That has pushed the agenda of melting pot on back burner. American Left has openly lined up behind multiculturalism - gay right movement, Black civil right movement, women's movement, minoritism etc are now fully clothed in multiculturalism lingo. These days, we hear less and less about melting pot agenda and more about multiculturalism. Still, it remains mainly left-wing platform not embraced by political right. I think next 10 years will be defining period as to what happens to them and where America is going. If democrats win power, multiculturalism will most likely get a boost and immigration will get streamlined to give it a boost.

@ kerty: I like your use of the term "melting potters" although I'm not sure that there is a need to go after any single community specifically. The "pull" exerted by the melting pot is analagous to gravitational pull, affecting everything within its event horizon. No one is immune.

For the Hispanics, already Catholic by religion, the pulling force resolves down to primarily English. For some of them, the lollipop at the end of the rainbow is what Lopez gets in The Wedding Planner - a rich, charming WASP baby doctor (the appeal to family values) instead of Luis the short order cook. This is the promise to white/ near white Hispanics i.e. be deemed worthy of intermarriage with the mainstream if only you learn English.

However, this discussion is about ABCDs, not Hispanics. I'm not sure of the accuracy of your comment "magic of melting pot will work on 2nd or 3rd generation of Asian immigrants". The experience of the Indian 3rd and subsequent gens in the U.K. is towards a return to the historic culture as the realization slowly dawns that the promises were false; you will always be 'almost the same but not quite'; 'almost the same but not white'; "half-made"; always in the waiting room of history, drinking copius amounts of beer to "time-pass" away the journey without end.

"Top-down" integration/ melting pot never works. Remember that those who demanded and just received an apology from the Australian government were taken away as infants in the 1930s from their natural families in order to integrate them into white society.

@kerty:One can not fully understand trends like melting pot, ABCD, multiculturalism etc without understanding phenomena of immigration in USA and one can not fully understand phenomena of immigration without understanding larger politics of cold war and now post cold war.

Melting pot is not a trend, nor is it a recent phenomenon. It is a philosophy of developing or manufacturing homogeneous societies in which people of different cultures, races and religions are combined together.

The melting pot is not related just to immigration - let alone recent immigration - or even to the cold war given that it has been used since the days of colonialism, slavery etc to integrate the native cultures/ blacks etc into the mainstream. Lets not go off on an unnecessary tangent. Finally, the melting pot is just one of several models of managing diversity and the American pot is decidedly flawed.

Sanjay, do explain how it is racist to ask people to learn the official language of a country?

Sanjay..

Opening up Immigration in USA had a fallout - melting pot, ABCD etc. I tried to place them in broader perspective. While it is true that quest for supremacism of a monolith is deeply ingrained in the west, and multi-culturalism is alien to its ethos, i would beg to differ about melting pot. While colonialism and slavery sought to subjugate alien people, melting pot is not seeking to subjugate people - it is merely seeking to strip alien people off their cultural, ethnic and national values, allegencies and identities associated with them. It is trying to subjugate and destroy those values and identities, not people. Thus, melting pot is a post colonial development and its birth is closely tied to western response to cold war. While communist Russia sought to subjugate people and their freedom, west sought to capture higher moral ground by adopting pro-freedom and anti-subjugation politics - that west stood against subjugation of people and for freedom of people. Cold war forced west to move away from its legacy of subjugation of alien people. However cold war was nothing but manifestation of western quest for supremacism of its values - so west did not shed subjugation in entirety - it just got the make over into doctrine of melting pot that seek to liberate people but subjugate their cultural values. Multi-culturalism poses direct challenge to western notion of supremacism of one set of values and culture - it forces west to shed subjugation of even alien cultures and values. I see strong conservative backlash against immigration as a counter reaction to political rise of multi-culturalism in USA.

kerty you said"
and multi-culturalism is alien to its ethos

(referring to the US)
please back up this point with more than anecdotal evidence.

Kerty:

""Multi-culturalism poses direct challenge to western notion of supremacism of one set of values and culture - it forces west to shed subjugation of even alien cultures and values""

Right! That's why it's official policy in Canada, and a reality (without an official policy) in the US....Keep dreaming ideological dreams...

SS, say what? isn't kerty's assertion enough? and you demand evidence? Dharma needs no evidence. talk of evidence is a typical western colonial ploy to spread adharma...you think you can fool kerty with this kind of adharmic talk? tsk, tsk!

@smallsquirrel: Sanjay, do explain how it is racist to ask people to learn the official language of a country?

This is a strawman given I never made any such claim. In any case, my own preference is towards official multilingualism, particularly if the nation is composed of a diverse population. So, the question arises why a self-proclaimed diverse nation like America remains officially monolingual. After all, smaller countries like Canada, Switzerland etc. are officially multilingual. Ask a Quebecois in Canada if they would consider it racist for Canada to make English the only official language or vice versa for the Canadian Anglos.

@kerty: it is merely seeking to strip alien people off their cultural, ethnic and national values, allegencies and identities associated with them. It is trying to subjugate and destroy those values and identities, not people.

I'm in general agreement with this assessment because it helps shed light on a key feature of ABCD psychology. It explains why many ABCDs are not just disconnected from their historic culture (which is perhaps a natural outcome of geographic displacement) but harbor an active aversion to it. This is not an accident but a predictable outcome of the melting pot policies of America.

sanjay... canada had a majority of people from one area/background coming to live in canada and permanently settling into huge communities. so having french as an official language made sense. there are so many immigrants in the US, shall we just make every language an official one?

that's asinine.

Seema, this post was a real eye-opener. I belong to that class of people you speak of - the so-called 'modern' Indians who dress, talk and live with a good deal of freedom. The thought that our counterparts in the West don't necessarily have the same freedom (or even less of it than us) doesn't come naturally to us. It would be good to hear more about this unique caught-in-the-middle situation that you face: at work, on campus and elsewhere.

The movie that best describes this syndrome is - Harold And Kumar Go To White Castle. The stereotyping of what Americans and non Americans immigrants expect the second generation immigrant children to be like is hilarious.

One has to be balanced in these matters.

Parents project their insecurities on children and turn them into ABCDs. People should be allowed to naturally look for their roots on their own terms.

I find urban Indians more Americanized than those living in USA. Say, someone in Arkansas won't be living the Manhattan life-style but you will surely find number of Mumbia-kers living the 'fast American lifestyle'.

Hey seema , I find your article very well written , when i first came to the US, i was introduced to the term ABCD , which i thought for the first few months to be very fitting until i encountered THE ABCD 's and i realized they aren't exactly so "confused" as implied , they
are focussed , have imbibed a good mixture of Indian and American values and what more can you expect , when i myself being from India am confused by many American ways ; its amazing how they master & balance both . Being confused is just a part of life where ever u come from , isn't necessarily associated with being stuck between two cultures ,so to label people without knowing them is just being prejudiced with some exceptions always there

Thank you all for your comments.

Lets get it right now: Hinduism is a coined word. In india there 3 primary schools of thought: Vaisnavs, Shaivaites, and Shakti devotees. ISKCON(Hare Krishnas) was established by an Indian man upon the order of his guru to bring Gaudiya Vaisnavism to the west. Their overzealousness is a quality of vaisnava philosophy.

kamal you say that like the term "krishna consciousness" was delivered in an akashwaani by krishna himself. all terms are "coined".

:D

You are right Jay, Krishna consciousness is a coined phrase but it is more or less a direct reflection of vaisnava philosophy. Prabhupada had the challenge of describing intricate philosophy to clue less Americans. So to say that "Hare Krishnas" are not part of the broader "Hinduism" as Seema does in this article is an ignorant statement.

Seema, ABCD was well written. I presume, I belong to the previous generation, when compared to many of you here.

During my younger days, I was a IBCB, Indian Born Confused Brat - a victim of over protective parents. However good their intention would have been, it was counter productive.

My parents wanted to protect me, because of "fear of unknown" and as a teenager I was brimming with the spirit of adventurism. There was no meeting point and most of us were rebellious. A lesson well learnt, now my son is close to me as a friend and we discuss "everything" without fear or inhibition.

Kamal: Seema's article says:

"They even went so far as to adopt the overzealous Hare Krishna movement often mistaking it for Hinduism itself"

She does NOT say that Hare Krishnas are NOT part of Hinduism. She points out that her family "mistook" the Hare Krishna movement for Hinduism itself, not considered themselves PART of Hinduism. I can understand why she would have a problem with that. Having interacted with a lot of Sunday schooled Hare Krishnas I think they are a lot more closed towards other interpretations of the Bhagvad Geeta. They criticize meat eating, view sex as a reproductive activity and instead of the tolerance preached by Hinduism as a whole they assume an intolerant almost stubborn, cultist approach towards other religions or deities often feeding everybody the "but Prabhupad says Krishna is supreme" dictum. They argue relentlessly like you are doing here and the whole point is "I am right because Krishna himself came down to Earth and told me and the rest of you are idiots". Hinduism is not like that. It is a very tolerant religion. In fact thats probably its most defining aspect.

Maybe Prabhupad did say profound stuff in his books but if you read and educate yourself about preachings and interpretations of other numerous saints and prophets you will see that they too have their own independent, very convincing views.

Moreover Bhagvad Geeta is only ONE scripture.

If you say Hinduism is a "coined phrase" then imagine how diluted the Hare Krishna movement must be having been derived from something so "coined"

I am surprised that as an Indian you are so pro-Hare Krishna. In India HRs are mostly viewed as the internationals who seek to indulge in Hindu spirituality by dancing and singing and wearing saffron clothes running after people at the airports with pamphlets :)

Going to a Hare Krishna temple is one thing (ISKCON does build beautiful temples I admit with all the money they get) but saying that Krishna is the only God is fanatical and Hinduism is not about that.

Most importantly, if God wanted you to believe only what Prabhupad says in his books, why would he have gifted you a brain? The problem with cults is that they take that beautiful brain of yours and wash it.

Vaisnavas believe that Krishna is supreme and there are numerous references to this in scriptures besides the Bhagavad Gita. There are intolerants in a lot of religions. Naturally, every religious follower has a tendency to feel their path is superior. Maybe you have interacted with some narrow minded Hare Krishnas but the people I interact with are quite receptive towards other religions and belief systems. In fact, prabhupada himself says that any path that leads to realization of god and brings about love of godhead is a proper path.

There is no denying that hinduism dictates many forms of liberation dependent on the specific philosophy one endorses. That has never been questioned and is even discussed at length in the Gita. I have read other interpretations and I do worship other deities. I am actually a proud devotee of Shiva, Ganesha, and Durga. Although, I personally hold Krishna to be supreme. ISKCON followers celebrate Shivaratri, Ram Navami, Hanuman Jayanti, and many others.

The particular issue with other deities is that people worship them for some material gain. That is not the proper way to worship any god. It should not be a business transaction: Ill do this for you God and you give me this. That is adamantly opposed by Vaisnavas and the Krishna movement.

Prabhupada in his works makes commentaries on: The 4 Vedas, 108 Upanishands, Ramayana, Mahabharat(of which Gita is a subset), Brahma Samhita, Puranas. The movement is not limited to only the Gita. Krishna is a God even if you dont accept him to be supreme, he is superior to you. Krishna recited the Gita and it is very instructive, poetic, eloquent, and profound. I guess you would expect that from the words of a God.

Do you know what it means when you adopt a Guru? It is usually the case the word of Guru is law and you follow it religiously. Prabhupada had a limited amount of time with his disciples. They were westerners and he tried to give them the essence of Vaisnava philosophy through his books: Krishna (Vishnu if you prefer)is supreme and we have to develop our relationship with him. He didnt have time to continue his preaching because Hinduism is extremely intricate in its philosophies there is simply not enough time. You would be surprised at how many people wish prabhupada was still here to provide them with more knowledgle.

Prabhupada's order to his disciple was to spread the Vaisnava philosophy. Massive preaching efforts are endorsed. Yes they are famous for being at air ports. But it is the order of their guru and obeying the order of guru is foremost no matter what philosophical sect you choose. They are trying to at least bring people to be GOD conscience. If you arent God conscience there is no question of understanding Shiva, Krishna, Vishnu, Ganesh, whomever.

Hinduism is profoundly against eating meat: Prabhupada isnt the only one to say this. There are a lot of references in all the scriptures about vegetarianism. Similarly, sex is the same issue with monetary greed. The perfection of yoga is when one has controlled the mind and senses, this includes sex desire. Why do you think monks are generally celibate?

Keep in mind, Jay, philosophical debates in India regarding interpretations of scriptures and the superiority or inferiority of one deity over another have gone on for centuries in India. Madhava Acharya (Vaisnava) vs. Shankar Acharya (Shaivaite) and also during the times when Krishna was present on Earth. Prabhupada has quoted the profound realizations of Shankar Acharya even though they both adopt different philosophies.

ISKCON is not so much a coined phrase. It is really just an acronym for what core VEDIC philosophy the movement adopts. It is not a religion and it is not a cult. This misconception comes up many a time. Like I said they are Vaisnavas. South Indian Temples are particularly fond of the Hare Krishna devotees. South Indians are notoriously Vaisnavas(Vishnu Devotees) as well. Keep in mind Krishna and Vishnu are non-different!

ISKCON does not say Krishna is the only God. They try to establish Krishna's (Vishnu) supremacy with scriptural evidence. They acknowledge and even celebrate other forms. Prabhupada scolded his devotees when they wondered if they should bow before Shiva.

I grew up in very pro-hindu home. We worship ganesh, durga, laxmi, shiva, you name it regularly contrary to some of the dictions of ISKCON. We regularly attend other temples to hear various preachers. My parents are very well rounded hindus. My mom in particular is attached to Krishna, Rama, etc. My father is too however is very fond of Shiva. The advice of my parents is to take the good in every philosophical presentation you come across. Simple, no explicit loyalty to one group or another.

Please dont call ISKCON a cult. That is ignorance on your part. In fact a lot of what you presented about ISKCON are very common misconceptions. I do not disagree that there are some narrow minded people in the movement. However, you can find that in any other religion too. Go to the krishna temple, speak with someone with a critical mind, and engage in discussion. I have done it.Try to find someone that isnt so narrow minded when you go. They welcome it. Be sure to back up your statements with scriptural evidence if you go =).

You are right on with the words of prabhupada when it comes to our brains =).

Kamal: Thank you for the lengthy response. You proved my point by referencing Prabhupad on all counts :) I also wasn't lost on your "if you can't convince them confuse them (with didactic terminology to create an illusion of vast knowledge)" :D

You think books have the answers when religion is a way of life and faith just a means to deal with the stuff that comes with it. "To each his own" policy is the only one thats non-fanatical in its approach.

After reading your comments on the other thread I am less inclined to discuss "religion" with you. You may just be commenting so you can call your sister "ignorant" among other things that you have called her already.

You are obviously either very young or have not been in India long enough to experience the wide ambit the nation offers there for all religions, not just Hinduism.

You seem to like jumping the gun and extrapolating general things from very specific topics. I am well aware of the vast variety of religions in India, thank you. If you are going to criticize a "cult" you might as well have the facts to back it up. Why would anyone believe claims that aren't supported with Evidence? Propaganda is every where and those that maintain their own amidst all of it are wonderful people.

All religions are cults, psychotropic wish-fulfilment fantasies, and con jobs, and those are just the complimentary things one has to say about them.

Aaman, well said. Although, as the restrained editor-in-chief of DC, I wonder what made you write that here.. were you under the influence of a few drinks on a lazy Sunday afternoon??

Heh, perhaps:) Anyone watching the match? We need some cricket articles

Kamal: A cult is one where under the leadership of a single leader or his teachings a following is established which is an off-shoot of another religion. In cult behavior, morality, ethics etc are defined not by human standards or by a person's own reasoning but instead by whats said in a book. A cult is one where the religion is propagated by using media or constant preachings which are all based on the teachings of one person. I don't have to give you any "evidence" to back up what I think of HR. I am free to form an opinion about practices that I observe. You on the other hand are not obligated to believe me.

If ISKCON is not a cult then it must be a religion right? If its a religion by itself then its most definitely not Hinduism because Hinduism itself does not preach ONLY the Bhagvad Geeta and most importantly Hinduism is NOT monotheistic.

A religion is not defined by what festivals are celebrated but by what the majority of the teachings propagate. So whether you celebrate Mahashivratri or not is irrelevant.

I have been to plenty temples...not just ISKCON. They give me a feeling of peace and strengthen my faith somehow (it could be plainly psychological).

People holding their own amidst propaganda may be "wonderful" people but those who dismiss relevant critique as propaganda are wonderful people in serious denial.

Ok you seem to not read my comments correctly. ISKCON is not an offset of any other religion. I have repeated to you many times that ISKCON is Vaisnavaism, one of the 3 major schools of thought you will find in India. The beliefs of ISKCON are shared across the board with other Vaisnava groups if you will. Prabhupada has a guru and it was the order of his guru that lead him to bring the religion westward. Prabhupada came alone so all the work was done by him but the knowledge he presented was not new and made up.

Why are you not reading my lengthy posts? I listed all the major scriptures of India that are involved in ISKCON. Bhagvad Gita is an introductory study to other Vedic literatures. Hinduism is monotheistic. There is a concept of God being superior to others. There is a hierarchical order to the Universe, according to vedic scriptures, and Ganesh, Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu, Durga, you name it are all part of that order. You're critiques are fine, they just lack subtantial evidence to support your claims. Experience gives you so much but clearly you lack fundamental concepts pertaining to the views of hinduism as a whole.

I am not reading your lengthy responses because I find them very didactic and bookish which to me is fundamentally contradictory to the very essence of faith and living. My "school of thought" is spirituality and didactic terminology does not define spirituality (it is more so a state of mind and deed than anything else). You may have listed scriptures but to me written word does not constitute Ultimate Truth.

Hope you find peace and moral enlightenment in books and "fundamental concepts" Kamal.

someone once said: "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge"

Jay, you make very general claims about a group. If you want to speak generally at least make sure your general statements are correct.

Kamal general claims are not necessarily untrue, they are based on a majority of observations. Just because it is a generalization does not automatically disqualify it from being true.

I am not here to defend anything or clarify my position. I told you what I think of Hare Krishna and ISKCON. I am entitled to my opinion. If you said the same about say Buddhism or Scientology or even my own school of thought, I would accept it as your viewpoint instead of asking you to provide empirical evidence. With maturity comes the willingness to accept other perspectives with grace.

Nothing you have said in your long responses demonstrates that any of what I said incorrect.

As I said in my earlier comment: You may have listed scriptures but to me written word does NOT constitute Ultimate Truth.

Please don't think I do not respect your opinions. It is just that some of things you say are misconceptions and not truth. Expressing an opinion is one thing. Saying something is one way when it can be objectively shown to be another is fair game.

I have tried to offer you insights with real evidence that can be verified by anyone of any faith or religious denomination. I have NOT quoted anything from scriptures in my discussion with you. I have given you facts about the general philosophical ideas behind iskcon and hinduism. You are indeed entitled to your beliefs no disagreement there.

Kamal,

I have not read Prabhupada's books, but I have attended a few discourses in ISKCON. I am not particularly religious, but I really want to know what our ancestors thought and wrote about philosophy.

What I found is that the level of discourse at ISKCON is very low. I contrasted that with the "mass" at SRF (Self Realization Fellowship Church/Temple) founded by Yogananda. I found that their discussions happen at a much higher level and they do not to bring in superiority/inferiority of individual dieties. They address real life situations in a very practical way and I was truly impressed.

ISKCON appears to be cult. That's the perception I got especially after I read about some young people in their late teens who were pursuaded to give up their family and go live on ISKCON premises. I am not sure if it happens everywhere, but this happened in Bangalore during the 1990s.

Ravi

Aman:

""All religions are cults, psychotropic wish-fulfilment fantasies, and con jobs""

All religions begin as cults. Some do a better job of selling themselves to the public. After they are organizationally big enough, they start calling other groups in competition with them - "cults".

Ravi,
Although it is not uncommon to hear devotees in ISKCON trying to remind everyone about Krishna, in many temples there are very high level discourses that take place as well. At the temple I go to, usually it involves practical discourse about the spiritual nature of living entities, what brings about suffering, how material nature was designed to work, etc. Discussions are usually related to everyday activities of the people however at a very philosophical level. The quality of a discourse usually depends on who was assigned to give the discourse that they. Every person is different in their presentation.

As far as the kids leaving their family, that does indeed happen but more or less it is a personal choice and not something done by force. Devotees in the temple often times narrate how they came across Prabhupada and what made them give up their original lives etc. Yogananda's teaching are very profound and powerful.

Discussing ISKCON philosophy and whether - or how - it fits into the overall Hindu system is a bit tangential to the main theme of this post. However, the fact that people are even debating it is clearly due to the author settting herself up as judge and jury by (a) implying that ISKCON is not a part of Hinduism and (b) labeling Hare Krishna "overzealous".

As Kamal points out, this is due perhaps to the sheer ignorance of the author but methinks it is also indicative of a generally condescending, conceited attitude towards ISKCON, parents etc.

Sanjay G: "As Kamal points out, this is due perhaps to the sheer ignorance of the author but methinks it is also indicative of a generally condescending, conceited attitude towards ISKCON, parents etc."

Or maybe it is because on previous posts you've had your butt kicked by this very author? So you are habitually ganging up against her? :D Hahaha. You are such an opportunist and so obvious too. God, at least be a bit discrete!

Me thinks, any religion that needs marketing personnel to stand at airports recruiting devotees has to be cult. Mistaking HR for Hinduism is an error. No two ways about it: they are simply NOT one and the same.

"this is due perhaps to the sheer ignorance of the author but methinks it is also indicative of a generally condescending, conceited attitude towards ISKCON, parents etc."

Ahh! You have me all figured out Sanjay G :) You are so insightful!

What happened, not enough East versus West debates for you on DC?

SanjayG: The author does not state anywhere in her article that ISKCON is not a part of Hinduism. Where did you read that?

If following people around at airports isn't overzealous then I dunno what is. :)

I was at an HR temple years ago on Christmas Day where the preacher told everybody that since Jesus Christ was a prophet and Krishna the supreme god, that makes Krishna greater in hierarchy and so on Christmas Day we should chant Krishna's name not celebrate the birth of Lord Jesus Christ by singing carols. Praising the prophet is undermining the God who sent him to Earth, he told his devotees who nodded vigorously. :D

I had half a mind to ask him if we should have a saffron shirt clad, bald HR called "Someone Dasaa" go around distributing gifts to children rather than Santa since technically he works for the higher-ups in the hierarchy than Santa does. :D


The second time I went to an HR temple I was saying some Ganesh shlokas that I was taught as a child and a priest walked up to me and asked me what mantras I was chanting. I told him and was stunned when he said "Make sure you chant the Hare Krishna mantra and not Ganesh mantra...Krishna is superior to Ganesh, they are all demi-gods. Krishna is the only true God".

If Gods have such rigid hierarchy then the demi-gods should all form a union I think...I mean not getting a promotion through so many years of civilization is unfair and the National Labor Relations Board will see that.


Jokes apart, I think it would be great if we can put Muslim, Evangelical, ISKCON etc fanatics in the same building and lock em up till they've fought it out so they can leave the rest of us in peace.

There is so much more good that can be done in this world. There is disease, illiteracy, poverty, hunger, natural disasters that need to be dealt with and we all get but one life to do it. Yet all these people can discuss is religious rhetoric and didactic bull crap. It is frustrating.

Seema: Coming from countries rich in culture, history and religion

Chandra: hahaha.....you mean India? :-)

Aditi, please do not confuse the ignorance of a few individuals to the original purpose prabhupada has set out. There are lot of people who simply worship Krishna and consider it irrelevant to worship anyone else they are wrong in their beliefs both in our perspective as well as Prabhupadas. Prabhupada in his writings has explicitly declared the divinity of Jesus Christ many times. ISKCON maintains the god of the Christians, God of Muslims, God of all religiouns are one. Everything is connected to the one god including Ganesh, Shiva, Vishnu, Etc. They believe the supreme is Krishna so be it. There is non-sectarian scriptural evidence to prove that fact.

Lets put something in perspective here. Ganesh is the son of Shiva and Parvati. Being the son automatically implies a hierarchy. So dont think a hierarchy doesnt exist because it does. Shiva is also the son of Brahma. Brahma was born out of the naval of Vishnu. There is clearly a hierarchy. However, demigods if you will deserve equal respect and praise. We should all bow before them and that was the message of Prabhupada even though many of his disciples disagree. Prabhupada scolded many of his disciples who questioned whether they should bow before Shiva.

I will repeat this again. Gods are commonly worshipped for some material gain. This is not condoned by prabhupada or the ISKCON movement. Prabhupada had a lot to teach in a short amount of time. However, prabhupada gave them the essence of Vaisnava philosophy.

BTW ISKCON does a lot of well fare work. They have their International Food For Life effort where they distribute prasadam to a lot of people in need. They have cow protection programs and active efforts to improve the situations in Africa. Not to mention anyone can go to a temple and get a free meal any day of the week =).

Weren't there some reports of childabuse and property fraud w.r.t the I-conites?

Yes, Kamal I acknowledge the heirarchy...thats why I suggested that the demi-gods file a petition with the National Labor Relations Board. Unionization is the best answer to such hierarchy. It will save the gods a lot of paperwork and the prayers can be delivered from respective temples based on union designations.

@Jay #78: This fake bravado act might work in the WWE but I'm more interested in addressing the substantive issues with this article. There are, of course, multiple shortcomings, all of which have been raised earlier, but the typical response from the author and her gang of cheerleaders is bluster, emotive denials, personal attacks and issue avoidance.

Case in point: even in your latest attempt at a response, once you get past the personal attacks, all you can come up about ISKCON is that you disapprove of their marketing methods and therefore they are a cult! No discussion of ISCKON philosophy/ practice etc - the fact that ISKCON philosophy is based on bhakti for Krishna is completely ignored in your worldview :-)

If marketing methods determined cult status then one wonders about religions that place their holy book in every hotel room even though all it does is gather dust over the years!

Sanjay G:

"If marketing methods determined cult status then one wonders about religions that place their holy book in every hotel room even though all it does is gather dust over the years!"

Sure, I agree! One must wonder about that! Why wouldn't "one"?

Sanjay G you said in your initial comment that discussing ISKCON philosophy is tangential to the discussion about this post and in your latter comment complained about the bhakti for Krishna philosphy of the ISKCON being ignored!

This discussion was about whether the author says that ISKCON is NOT a part of Hinduism. She has no where in her article said this and if she has please point it out.

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