Satire: Dear Marathi Manoos Thackerays

Dear Anuradha - Please don't generalize the Sena tactics to all marathis. Believe it or not, not all marathis agree with these goondas; in fact we are ashamed of such people in our community. It is only a small fraction that has been brainwashed by the sena gang for political reason. If they really cared about the marathi manoos, they would help and not destroy the reputation of aamchi mumbai.

Dear Anonymous,
The fact of the matter is that you switch on any news channel, this is the same perception we all are getting about so called Marathi Manoos.
You watch a talk show, most of the Marathis are acting....... SHIT.
Anyhow, just imagine if all nations apply Maharashtra's tactics and kick off Indians.... Pepsi kicks off Ms. Indira Nooyi, Europe kicks off Mittals, US shuts down Jindals, and so on and so forth. Now just imagine I am here in US, and we celebrate Republic days and Independence day of India, by hoisting the flag in the middle of the park, and all these people join us in repecting our national flag, suppose they take a tip from the Thackreyas.....

Anonymous, It is definitely no reflection all marathis, that is why I specifically addressed it to people involved.

my view is this... while it is not a reflection on all marathis, it is a reflection on some marathis... so the responsibility lies with the marathis who do not agree with this mess to get rid of the shiv sena, MNS, etc. I mean, they have enough support that they keep getting elected. that says something, right?

Some UP workers and their families, who work at my father's construction site, were threatened and forced out from their rented houses today.

I find this extremely disturbing. What are we, a democracy, or a budding incarnation of Nazi Germany?

If Mr. Raj Thackeray really cared about the 'marathi manoos', he would -

1. Stop taking advantage of street-level discontent.
2. Busy himself starting new businesses.
3. Busy himself creating new job opportunities.
4. Busy himself creating better educational facilities.
5. Get his goons off their idle asses to keep the city clean, instead of littering it more with their mayhem.

But, no, he would rather do something destructive so long it benefits him personally and politically, than do something positive that will actually benefit the workers he's claiming to support.

He should be arrested - and without any fanfare or media attention. Considering the way the MNS and the Shiv Sena intimidate and harass journalists and writers, a blanket blackout by the media would be extremely fitting.

All - I do understand all points of views. There are many marathis who do not accept what the sena goondas are doing. But as an average middle-class person (which most marathis are), would you risk your life and your family's life in standing up for this? Small acts of kindness are undertaken to help such vulnerable people, but these are not publicised for obvious reasons. Even during the Hindu-Muslim riots of 1992, there were muslims helping hindus and vice-versa. Unless the judicial and police system can perform its job and unless we have an effective governance structure put in place, such people will always be successful in taking advantage of certain types of people. I only hope that the educated and the more sophisticated (rich) communities bring some pressure to address this problem before it explodes out of control. The Sena is a disgrace to maharashtrians!

Hi, I do agree that the step taken by Raj Thackrey was extreme but I also feel Kunal and Sonal are going to the opposite end of the spectrum. I'd like to ask kunal ... why do you see so many police vans outside Cinqo de Mayo parties in USA ? Why Mexicans and cubans gained so much notoreity in american society which gives decent treatment to Indians ? The answer is ... Indians follow the law of land. In a way I'd draw a parallel between Mexicans in USA and migrants in Mumbai. Both groups consist of very hardworking people, many of them being honest but there are some who taint that honesty... its criminals in USA and Politicians/union leaders in mumbai... How many of you know about Thakur complex in Kandivali ? Its all encroached upon SGNP land. Also this is the same guy who runs a tanker cartel in Mira Road, having close connections to Govinda, he's prevented the construction of a Pipeline so that his tanker business keeps running. Go outside Mumbai RTO office ... how many Marathi agents will you find ??? These guys can get you any license you want without any tests or anything. I'm not saying marathi manoos is the most honest person on earth ... but when you migrate somewhere atleast work hard. I'd never say a word against the bhajiwala, doodhwala or a salesman who works hard all day to earn his living but agents of almost all kind (railway ticket, passport, RTO, tenders etc) should be checked upon irrespective of their origin. The way Anuradha is against all Nazi marathis, I'd be against unscruplous migrants who taint the names of their own communities.

Do you share same thoughts about people from Delhi , Assam , Karnataka , Rajsthan ( where they call people from UP and Bihar Parsdesi )Orisa as well ?
Why only Biharis and people from Uttar Pradesh are talked about ??

most of these people are hard working but they are very rude .....Sometimes they bring Gun culture as well with them...
Problem is not about coming to Mumbai , Bangalore or Delhi , problem is about living in harmony with locals.....

bottom line:

turf warfare

additional twist:

thumbing up bal also

SS #4 So all marathis are responsible for the behavior of a few but no american is responsible for the behavior of its government?

Kudos! Quite a logical feat!

Agree with Temoral's succinct summary.

So where is india going with all these regional or religious chauvanisms? Does anyone see an end to this?

For a while I thought India would be immune to the tide of religious nationalism sweeping the planet - but its well on its way to becoming another Israel like state where the secular folks eventually give up and immigrate. The rest then pull the country deeper into the hole.

smallsquirrel: "my view is this... while it is not a reflection on all marathis, it is a reflection on some marathis... so the responsibility lies with the marathis who do not agree with this mess to get rid of the shiv sena, MNS, etc. I mean, they have enough support that they keep getting elected. that says something, right?"

I don't know if your view is a result of your limited understanding of what the Shiv Sena really is for Marathis but to give you a perspective, your statement is kind of like saying that all Italians should be somewhat blamed for not getting "rid" of the mafia. One cannot get "rid" of a political party as influential and as belligerent as the Sena. One can only denounce it, show lack of support and not live by that political party's beliefs. The common man cannot revolt against a party known for its city bandhs and stone pelting riots.

Most Marathi people living in Mumbai are the hardworking middle class. In fact a lot of Maharashtrian migrants arriving from draught struck villages spend their lives in poverty living in chawl systems and trying to get their kids a decent education. A majority of the big businesses are owned by Gujratis, Marwadis, Parsis etc. who quickly achieve monopoly in their respective areas. A good example would be the Ambanis. Believe it or not, a lot of the Sena's activities are funded by these businesses which want the political party's support in putting a curtain over their unscrupulous activities and not by "Marathis". So that is an absolutely ridiculous suggestion.

A visit to Bombay or even a short stay will not allow people a peek into the relationship between local Marathis and the Sena. To be put it midly, it is the relationship between a geek and the highschool bully who snatches his lunch if he doesn't share it with him. The truth is most Maharashtrians live in fear of the Sena's bullying. While the actual party or the founders themselves may not be responsible for these anti-social activities, a lot of their members are the frustrated, uneducated, unemployed youth driven to extremism due to circumstances. One cannot get "rid" of them as if they were a nuisance but instead get to the root of the problem.

Ms. Goyal:

I do have to say that I deeply resent your starting this article with the words "Marathi manoos"(translating to Marathi man). Just a "Dear Thackerays" or "Sena Supporters" would've sufficed.

You ask quite a few questions in your post. I had a few queries of my own. I would really like to know if Mr.Bachchan would've been the Big B had he stayed in Illahbad or maybe anywhere in UP which he claimed in advertisements was "Uttam" Pradesh. I would also like to know if he ever considered building a girl's school in his home state and not just his state of origin (or political support) as well. He illegally acquired land to build a farmhouse in a draught stricken area in Maharashtra where farmers make a living off of the land but chose to build the charitable girl's school in UP where his political cronies live. While Uttar Pradesh is Uttam enough for a political campaign, it is apprently not Uttam enough for his son. While the Marathi manoos that you speak of in your article cannot even dream of a small chawl room in South Bombay, Big B's baby gets a new bungalow in the busiest business areas of Mumbai.

I honestly wouldnt have thought online writers would've needed to make Big B's case for him considering well-paid lawyers get to do the same for quite a sum.

That being said: Mumbai has always been open to migrants from all over India. Rigid language barriers like those in South India, regional biases such as those in Gujarat, cultural rifts such as those in UP and commercial hurdles such as those in the Eastern states have never afflicted Maharashtra or Mumbai and never will no matter what the Sena says.

Ms.Goyal asks in her article:

"If all the non-maharastrians, including Parsis and Gujaratis actually gave you what you asked for in totality, will your Mumbai be the Mumbai that it is?"

This question may even have an answer but what one will never know is that if the Parsis and Gujratis in question would've stayed on in their villages or native places would they ever be who they are today.

To be honest, Ms.Goyal, giving the Sena so much credit is like discrediting the spirit of Mumbai which has always been and will continue to be the heart of a nation so divided by language and religion.

Why don't we take a minute to examine how and why the Sena gets to scream "bias" and find a willing ear among the "Marathis". Lets take one example of the largest film industry in the world:

In all the films that Bollywood churns out every year how come the maid servant and the pandu hawaldar is a Marathi Manus and the heroes and heroines are Ahujas, Oberois, Mehtas and Mangtanis?! How come the nine yard sari clad Marathi woman is the kaam waali bai or fish monger and the only Marathi manoos is one paan chewing, dhotar clad villager?

If a film industry started by a Marathi manoos, Dadasaheb Phalkar can be so marginal in their treatment of the Marathi people, then why type out a letter addressing a political party that feeds off of the bias created by such popular media forms?

The problem is not 'Marathi Manoos' or 'Gujju Bhai' or Raj Thackerey or Narendra Modi. The problem is how the state which is supposed to protect its citizens reacts to these problems. Indian state has failed spectacularly in providing security to its citizens and in bringing the guilty to justice.

As long as the opportunistic people feel that they can get away with it, there will be plenty of Thackereys, Modis, Amar Singhs and the like. Bring swift justice and let these people face the consequence and they will return to their holes.

First of all I do agree with most of you over here that even if you are against any tactic of Shiv Sena and all such parties, theres hardly anything you can do about it, as middle class families are known for staying away from "lafdas", and rightly so.

But at the same time there are people like Aditi and Harshal whose comments do indicate that situation is not all that simple as well. There are people who actually think Marathis are sidelined. Like Aditi gave an example of movies.

Lets talk about movies. You like it or not Aditi, this is a commercial world, you make product to sell it, not to shelve it. Whatever movies you are talking about are the movies which are actually catered to a bulk of hindi speaking crowd and which includes a big market of NRIs. At the same time there are other communities, like Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, who may or may not connect with Marathi culture, but share a common chord with hindi speaking people, both of language and culture.

You see all these differences because you want to see the differences, as for me, even though I am a pujabi, I have never gone to see a movie after giving it a thought about the hero shown is punjabi or marathi.

At the same time, you have said that all the Gujratis and Marwadis seem to monopolize the business, it means that they must have been doing something right. For example in US president is saying that if you really want to cut down on H1 visas then prepare our own students to the level of Asian students, so that we don't require foreign skilled labors. Its a simple market Aditi, there is a demand of a service, if you can provide it well and good, if not then bugger off. Looks like you couldn't and now when there are some other people giving that comfort suddenly Marathi Manoos woke up, oh my god I don't have a job. Fact is you didn't have the will.

Now Aditi you asked, Whether Big B would have become Big B if he had been in Allahbad, well dude you tell me would Mumbai had been Mumbai without immigrants????

It works both ways, Shahrukh and Bachchan needed mumbai as much as Mumbai needed them. Why US in the world and Mumbai in India are financial power houses??? because people came here and contributed. US would never had become had there been no immigrants in all these years, and Mumbai woould have been nothing if Ambanis, Tatas, had not made their factories over there.

Moreover do not forget, if HIndi Speaking people actually reject your Bollywood right now, there goes your multi billion film industry. You need us as much as we need you, and we get success only if we work together.

Now Harshal you are trying to draw parallels with Mexicans and non Marathi people.

Dude apart from Bill O'Reilly, there is no one who can say Mexicans break rule. The fact is Mexicans NEVER EVER BREAK RULES. Ther are more law abiding people than Americans, and we Indians, for the reason that they know, if they are caught, they will be deported. Hence they don't drive stupid, do not get involved in scuffles etc.

Then why you ask anti Mexican feeling. First of all your comparisons are so so so wrong, we are talking about the people of same nation being discriminated because of language they speak, and here we are the people of different religion, culture, background, and even NATION. Still US provides a much better atmosphere to get together, and work for betterment.

Whatever feelings people have against Mexicans, its because Americans are finding themselves unwilling and inadequate to compete with Mexicans. They work hard and make a living whereas Americans in all these years have been used to their Bud and Miller so much that they forgot that you can actually work for more than 40 hours a week.

And even then there is absolutely no violence going on against any Mexican family and their livelihood, whereas we all have seen what "Marathi Manoos" is doing on the streets of Mumbai.

Mumbai was Mumbai before these personalities arrived you know. These people made it big in this city. Also, do you know what a rhetorical question is?

My earlier comments can be mistaken as anti-non-Maharashtrian by those who don't want to see the facts raised in but I assure you they are not; in fact far from it. If anything, I have spoken only negatively about the Sena's tactics. BUT we have to remember that if the Sena feeds on the biases, the media and the powerful people create these biases. That is the point I was trying to make. Read my comment carefully.

"You need us as much as we need you, and we get success only if we work together"

I actually don't need you at all. Besides I don't know who this "you" and "we" is.

Your comment is factually correct but I am just not sure you addressed it to the right person.

I don't need to be convinced that a city needs the immigrants as much as the migrants needs the city. I know this already.

Its really great that you agree but your stance remains the same that Mumbai was Mumbai even before these personalities came here.

Before Ab it was Rajesh Khanna, non Marathi, Before him was Dilip Kumar, non Marathi, Sunil Dutt, non Marathi, Madhubala, Guru Dutt, Waheeda Rehman, I mean the fact is that you can count on your hands how many Marathis have actually been involved in film industry, and it was not because of bias OFC.

But glad to know that I was wrong about you. Thanks to you.

Anuradha: Please read Kunal's comment #17

he says: "..whereas we all have seen what "Marathi Manoos" is doing on the streets of Mumbai"

This is precisely why I expressed my discontent at your using the word "Marathi Manoos". It is like creating one bias to fight another. Kunal and many such people think "Sena supporters" and "Marathi manoos" are one and the same.

The Marathi manoos is the Marathi common man who hangs from the Virar local and uses one fraction of his salary to pay local dadas for the Ganesh Chaturthi festival and the remaining for his children's SSC tution classes. The Shiv Sena is a political party who has support from film personalities like Sanjay Dutt (not Marathi!) and from businessmen who aren't Marathi either. So why bring up "Marathi Manoos"?


More importantly, when there are riots in Mumbai, the Gujratis, the Marathi manoos, the Bengali babu moshais, the Bihari bhaiyyas, the South indian Annas, all loose.

^^^^^^^^^
Aditi switch on the news channels, thats what you get.
How many Marathis actually came against it??? I am here in US, and all I see on NDTV, CNN, Aaj Tak n all is your "Marathi Manoos" going in street creating havoc, and coming to the debated with as silly arguments as "They should learn our language?" What the fish is your language??? isn't it HIndi which is our national language???? since when regional language becomes more important than national language???

I was watching that big debate on CNN, and there was this Marathi personality, for whom I had great respect, but then again he started speaking like.... they are not in touch with our culture... I mean really???? thats why you are slapping him?? breaking his cab??

And then again, remember I am putting "Marathi Manoos" in quotes, so as to specify the the Marathi people with MNS thinking not Marathi people in general.

#15 Kunal:

You are funny.

I had no idea NRIs, Pakistani and Bangaldeshi wanted to see Maharashtrians as maid servants, pandu hawaldars and corrupt ministers. I really did not know that lowly portrayal of Marathis in films was a commercial requirements

Ha.

Also, Guru Dutt was Marathi/ Konkani. Guru Dutt Padukone. So iss Shyam Benegal. I happen to belong to the same community actually.

Amol Palekar, Nana Patekar, Madhuri Dixit, Sonali Bendre, Atul Kulkarni, Smita Patil, Nutan....

In fact check your Bollyhistory: The first leading ladys: Shobhna Samarth, Durga Khote were all Marathi

and as I mentioned, the father of Indian film industry was Dadasaheb Phalke.

BUT THIS IS NOT a Marathi versus non-Marathi competition.

:)

And all the names you mentioned became famous ones after finding commercial success in the commercial capital.

So yes, my stance remains the same.

Years have gone by but migrants when they think of looking for a job, actors when they think of having a film career, businessmen think of having a booming trade all think of Mumbai. There shouldn't be any shame in admitting this.

I am not Marathi by the way and if I as a Mumbaikar can admit this then any true Bombay resident should be able to.

Kunal: Before typing out your next reply please read my first comment on the thread again instead of assuming it is similar to Harshal's.

I do not agree to the stance taken by the Sena. I do not believe in violence or extremism of any sort. I don't like prejudice and bias against communities. I lived through the 93 blasts and don't ever wish to see that happen in Mumbai, to Mumbaiites.

The fact that Gujratis etc own businesses is not meant to be critical of this fact....more power to those who own businesses. They actually increase employment etc. Its great. But some of these businessmen and actors feed political interests for their own agendas.

But in trying to criticize the Sena's tactics this article has unintentionally fed an existing Maharashtrian versus non-Maharashtrian sentiments.

I fear your comments are doing the same.

I am from Bombay and for me a Maharashtrian is someone who lives in Maharashtra. Period.

"I am from Bombay and for me a Maharashtrian is someone who lives in Maharashtra. Period."
Thats about it right.....
your period says all, thats how it should be.

Sometimes I think even Catalonia and rest of Spain won't be having so much of trouble as we have in India, anyhow good to read your statement.

And BTW if you think I am funny, wait till you see me, you will roll on floor.

Anyhow, I never said all Pakis and all enjoy watching Marathis as lower grade workers, and I don't know what movies you were talking about, because I heard no qualms about muslims being shown as maids and servants, Goa people branded as drunk, we Punjabis as some fools, Delhites girls as sluts, or should I say, modern, to be diplomatic.

Why you see it as insult to Marathis is beyond me.
Anywho....
And Mumbai became financial capital because of the commercial investments by the central government and their tax policies.

In every nation every government makes a commercial hub, in India it happened to be Mumbai. And even in every city there is a commercial capital, like in Delhi its CP, Jaipur in Rajasthan, Chandigarh for Haryana and Punjab. Kolkata in Bengal.

And for these financial hubs, its their responsibility to cater to the needs of all immigrants, so as to survival of its own. It was not that Marathis one day decided to make Mumbai financial capital of India, and then non Marathis took over, it was that it was made financial capital of India by government by giving SOPs and benefits to people establishing business over there and hence Mumbai became financial capital.

Every Indian contributed in the success of Mumbai, while paying taxes to central government.

And about your stance on Shiv Sena, I have already said that appreciate your view but I am against your stance that Mumbai made all these people and Mumbai is something out of this world. It was just a state of India, it is just a state of India. Same as Sirsa of Haryana, Jhumritalayia of I do not know which state.

Kunal: I don't know why you seem to have a problem with my saying that the city contributed to the success and fame of these people. Why one would take issue with a claim that a city's commercial aura contributed to people's careers, is beyond me. When asked some of these personalities have actually stated that coming to Bombay was what changed their fate: Dev Anand, Amitabh, Dharmendra etc have all stated in interviews that it was Mumbai's spirit that accelerated their careers and actually helped them stay in the city while going after their dreams. So I am not sure why you are getting this defensive.

Also, I have to add that all the other supposed stereotypes that you mentioned I have not seen a single one in a Hindi film. "Punjabis as some fools and Delhi girls as sluts"!! What are you talking about! I have never seen these stereotypes and honestly think you are making them up :)

We Goans do love our wine....so that stereotype isnt all that untrue :D

As for Delhi, have you seen that movie, Mallika Sehrawat and Rahul Bose movie... in that he says, "oh ok you are from Delhi, I should have guessed" now what was that??? You Goans love your wine, but I didn't see as many drunk in Goas as showcased by movies....
And trust me dude, I do not have any problems with that... and go and see movie DDLJ, whole YRF camp movies, its as if Punjabis are depicted as some fat arse people, with some stupid dancing routine.. again no problems, we just laugh it off.

And in the same way I do not know what movies you mean when you say Marathis are depicted as low grade workers.

I do not have anything against Mumbai or whatever, but I get ticked off when I see all these regonal and reliogional politics. Like you said, Mumbai was Mumbai before they came here. No Mumbai was Mumbai because Indian government gave it some advantages, so that Indians can take opportunities in that part of India.

Now don't get me wrong dude, I am not being rude, but you know all these narrow thinking of MNS workers and so called "Marathi Manoos" *as depicted on TV* ticks you off when you want to see a broader picture. And here I am not talking about you, because you have made yourself clear that you do not endorse such thought process.

Kunal: Lemme address this pointwise:

1. What "advantages" has the government given Mumbai...more importantly why isn't the government giving these "advantages" to other cities so these cities too can have the commercial success?! That would be great for India! Wonder what prevents the government from making this economically altering move!

2. If regional politics ticks you off, Mumbai should be the last on your list. It is a melting pot of cultures. The "regional"politics is more concentrated and obvious in other areas of India.

3. No, I havent seen the ONE movie you referenced...I know who Rahul Bose is though, dunno the other one.

If you (for the sake of hard headedness) wanna refuse that the "Marathi" kaamwaali bai, hawaldar, corrupt minister portrayal exists in Hindi films, I will not try to convince you. Denial is hard to reverse. I am sure readers will know what I am talking about.

4. If you haven't seen as many drunks in Goa before, chances are you havent been to the right places.

5. Also, off topic: I have never been called "dude" before.

1) Yes government is now coming out with SOPs to many other states and cities. Metropolitan status given to many new cities, with increasing tax benefits. For example Delhi is all jam packed, thats why they shifted to places like Noida, Gurgaon, similarly Chandigarh is getting chocked hence emergence of Panchkula, and some of the neighboring places. Only issue is that it takes time, it always is a project of 20 years or so. And trust me, the way Noida, Gurgaon is right now out performing Delhi, Mumbai will be out performed by many cities as well.

2) If you talk about melting pot, there is no bigger melting pot than Delhi. Thats where my grand parents came from Pakistan, after partition and later on thrived. Even now Delhi has least reservation system in India. with I guess 50% seats in colleges, whereas rest of the states have as much as 75-85%, including Maharashtra. On top of that there is no domicile rule in Delhi, no job preference of any sorts. Thats how I want whole of India, with NO BENEFITS to locals, just to merit and talent.

3) And its not about one movie, its about so many movies, and then I guess when all goons are shown of UP and Bihar, I guess even they never came out with protests march. I do not need to make you count how any movies are there with UP and Bihar goons, when compared with Marathis as corrupt and low grade workers.

4) May be you are right, but when I went to Goa, there was just one person I found Drunk, and that was sadly me. But then your Titos is amazing, not my fault.

5) For some weired reason, I end up calling everyone dude, I hope you won't mind dude.

aditi,.,. yes, then, we agree... I do hold italians responsible for turning their heads and letting the mafia gain strength in our midst. if it is not our fault then whose fault is it? by ignoring the 20 then 30 then 40 lb gorilla in the room it eventually becomes a 2 ton gorilla that no one can stop.

I agree that the average maharashtran probably does not buy into the crap foisted on them by the shiv sena, but then how also are they winning elections? that is what I mean... you cannot cry foul too much... these guys are getting elected somehow!

kunal.. "mexicans never ever break rules"? what kind of odd statement is that?

28:

Kunal:

"If you talk about melting pot, there is no bigger melting pot than Delhi"

:) South indians will disagree and so will most other Indians....especially those who've had the opportunity of having lived in Bombay and Delhi.

I dont remember any Marathis coming out in "protest marches" because they were portrayed wrongly in Hindi films. I think somewhere you have taken this point out of context.

Squirrel, as such Mexicans, those who are in the middle of the storm of immigration bills, actually tend to be much more careful than us. For the simple reason that they will be kicked off the states if they get caught. As such its more like an exaggeration you might say, but you must be knowing that they are cautious.

As such Aditi all I mean to say was as you pointed out Marathis are cornered in the movies as low level workers, thats what I mean, I do not think any one minds how they are portrayed in the movies, as its all fictional.

And I know no one protested and in a way I am thankful because the sensitivity of us Indians is at time mind numbing.

Squirrel, as such Mexicans, those who are in the middle of the storm of immigration bills, actually tend to be much more careful than us. For the simple reason that they will be kicked off the states if they get caught. As such its more like an exaggeration you might say, but you must be knowing that they are cautious.

As such Aditi all I mean to say was as you pointed out Marathis are cornered in the movies as low level workers, thats what I mean, I do not think any one minds how they are portrayed in the movies, as its all fictional.

And I know no one protested and in a way I am thankful because the sensitivity of us Indians is at time mind numbing.

I do not think those kinds of generalizations get us anywhere. I mean, first of all, not all mexicans are in the US illegally! second, some behave badly and some do not. I mean shit, if they all behaved well they would not have a big population in prisons (go check the stats, please, of the number of Mexicans in max and supermax prisons)...

they do not have any more or any less propensity for violence than anyone else. I do think the cops have more of a propensity to arrest them than whites, tho!

No I do not mean that all Mexicans came illegally, but thats why I said in last post that those who are in the middle of this storm, tend to be much more cautious than us.

As such I agree there are many prisoners in max prisons of Mexican descent because they are believed to be involved in drug trafficking. But I am talking about trivial crimes like traffic violations, or say rent, mortgages problems. Drunk driving, you won't find many Mexicans who came illegally involved in all these things.

But yeah I do agree we can not generalize anyone.

All, I think the debate is not about Marathis and non-marathis, though it got triggered by recent happenings in Mumbai. It is about any community that is rising up and telling recent immigrants to go back. It applies equally to Bangalore as much, except that politicians have not taken to the same levels as in Mumbai.

My point is that if we keep extending this logic, then we should all pack our bags and go and live in the jungles of Africa. As for the rest of the earth everyone is a migrant, just the immigration dates are different.

Aditi, I partially agree with you, cities and people grow with each other, nurture each other. And when a city accepts and nurtures certain kind of people it is because the city needs that kind of talent, and at the same time the talent is in need of the kind of opportunities that the city offers. You can not put one above the other.

Well Raj is expected to be arrested anytime now, so we will see how Mumbai will react.

Raj Thackeray arrested

And the uncivil protests continue...

India has failed!!! We have failed as a nation. All the chest thumping that we do everyday about a rising power is pure bs. Look at the way thackeray's goons are going around killing people, destroying property and doing all sorts of sickening behavior. No one respects the constitution. It might as well have been flushed down the toilet. We keep arguing about trivial things like marathi pride, tamil pride, kannadiga pride and countless other prides. Who will care about human dignity and its worth. People are being boxed liked sardines into trains. What a shame. India and Indians have failed. We are worse than sub-Saharan Africa. Where's the outrage? The Indian elites are sitting pretty behind glass doors. NHRC only wakes up when the attacks are on the so-called minorities. No one cares about the little guy. The Bacchans & the Khans are "hijras" in my book. They have no shame in making money off of poor states of UP & Bihar. But no gall to stand and be counted. What the f*** are they afraid of? No one is going to kill them. Face it - we Indians are cowards. All this talk of a new nation is bs. If I were an entrepreneur I would go to the heart of Bihar - develop my own city - beat and compete with Mumbai to dust in 20 years. That would be the most ethical thing to do and the most economical. All these metros (have you ever been to one of these metros - dont even try - they stink) that keep crowing day in day out - about people from outside coming in and taking up all jobs need to be given serious run for their monies. Pride comes before fall.

India as it was created in 1947 is fake nation made with people hardly anything common between them. Sooner Indians understand it and go their own way it wll be better. We(or our politicians) will continue to blame others for our own failuers. It is just easy. USSR was another such idea which didnt work, Indians should seriously look at having smaller independent countries.

Ms Nadkarni,
Bollywood is actually HINDI film industry. I dont think any proud Marathi Manoos will take credit of starting it. I am not sure why Sena doesnt oppose it, after all it bring the north indian culture in their city, doesnt speak their own language and potrays their people as Bai and Pandu(extreamly bad profession which should be looked down upon). I think a lot of migrant move to Mumbai from North because of charm of Hindi movies and if MSN pushes it out of Mumbai it will help in reducing the number of these North Indian Bhaiyyas.
And you are right about city making the people what they are, Mumbai was actually created by Vinayaka in 7 days. Or was it earth created by God in 7 days?

All those non-marathi hindus who covertly and overtly supported sena sponsored pogroms in 1992; this is a reality check.Next south -indians and then maybe East indians.Fascism should be condemned whoever perpetrates it.What shocked most people was the manner in which marathis on the street supported the goons.

Actually updike, the Sena was born in the 1960's to target South Indian and Gujarati immigrants. They attacked Udupi restaurants, called South Indians "undu pundu," and beat up and harrassed many people. Mr. Thackeray, who forever will give cartoonists a bad name, came up with such brilliant slogans in his drawings as, "lungi hatao, pungi bachao."

The sena only showed its Hindutva ideology in the 1970's. But then in the 90's those same communities who had once been targeted went along for the anti-Muslim ride.

This whole thing is so sad and disgusting and is a strange kind of full circle.

While irresponsible jingoism deserves a separate section for itself, I was very happy to see all those sections used to arrest R.Thackeray.

Vick: Nations are not made of people who have all things common among them. Most great nations have their roots set in diversity.

Also, booting a film industry to protest the marginalized portrayal is like burning down a house to get rid of a rat infestation.

***
Bai and Pandu are most definitely NOT professions that should be "looked down upon". The point remains that Marathis do have other occupations....just like Punjabis do stuff other than running family businesses and dancing bhangra at weddings.
:)
***

38: Anurag:

"If I were an entrepreneur I would go to the heart of Bihar - develop my own city - beat and compete with Mumbai to dust in 20 years"

If you were an entrepreneur you would probably know that since a state is a part of the nation and will progress if the nation as a whole does, the "Beating Mumbai to dust" attitude won't really do Bihar any good.

...and 20 years for state development? Bit much.

As such Anamika I don't think theres any point in acknowledging Vick's comment, because he is certainly not an Indian.

And whosoever thinks that MNS, Mumbai thing is an excuse to divide a nation in different countries,, has no idea what goes on in Pakistan, and forget about their political turnmoil. Superbowl causes America to divide itself like no one can imagine, at the very least twice every year, Spain stands on the brink of a division, know about El Classico??? every weekend, every European country drools for the blood of his fellow countrymen, and you know why???? because football matches are on TV.

Anyhow, like Anamika said, we don/t have to beat Mumbai, or Bihar or anyone, we have to get better for ourselves. And the process has to start sooner than later.

Jawahra, so true!

Dipankar Gupta's _Nativism in a Metropolis: The Shiv Sena in Bombay_ (1982)

provides a good background of the yester-years of the sena, before they went on the ride with the hindutvadis...

Jawahra, so true!

Dipankar Gupta's _Nativism in a Metropolis: The Shiv Sena in Bombay_ (1982)

provides a good background of the yester-years of the sena, before they went on the ride with the hindutvadis...

@#40 Vick - *Bollywood is actually HINDI film industry. I dont think any proud Marathi Manoos will take credit of starting it.*

You've heard of Dadasaheb Phalke, Vick?

Check him out here -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dadasaheb_Phalke

A bonafide Marathi manoos. Born in Nasik.

kunal:
you said "As such Anamika I don't think theres any point in acknowledging Vick's comment, because he is certainly not an Indian."

um, so you pick who to respond to based on ethnicity?

that is odd. so that means that I can ignore all the comments about the US by Indians and assume they are incorrect?!?!?!??!?

you might want to rethink that strategy, yaar.

Squirrel dear, I didn't mean that, though we have some people who are having wet dreams about when and how we are going to beak up us a nation.

I do not need to specify those nationalities at all.

But that was not the point, my point was the guy who thinks India should be divided, I do not think he is an Indian. Now he might carry an Indian passport, but still he can not be deemed as an Indian.

At the very same time, people who think better for this nation, now they can be critical, but having goodness in their heart, are as much of an Indian as I am or anyone else is. No matter he/she carries an Indian passport or not.

That was my point, guess you will concur.

well, no... I do not really concur. to me it's like when US citizens call other US citizens unpatriotic for opposing the Iraq war.

the excellent part about living in a democracy is that you get to have and voice any opinion you want. that vick might love india in a way that is foreign to you, but that doesn't mean he is not an indian.

being an indian does not mean not being critical, which you have said. and if having good in your heart was a necessity for being indian, all of your politicians here would lose citizenship in one fell swoop! :)

you have to let people be and leave nationality out of it.

No Squirrel I do not have any problem with some one criticizing India and its policies. For example people who are criticizing Iraq war want good for the people, the soldiers who are dying there, taxpayer's money being spent there, and not to mention useless violence against Americans and not to mention feelings which are so prominent over here.

Anyhow, my point is people like Vick who do not believe in India. They want their Tillangana, Kashmir, Andhra, Maharashtra... now these people do not want India, so how come they are Indians????

For them India do not even exist, they want their own community and their own people, then dude pack your bags and get out. Because you don't want to be in this nation. You want you own nation, so pack your bag, off you go, and make your own nation.

Like what happened in the civil war here in US??? they wanted their own nation, so what happened??? there was just one way, right????

"India as it was created in 1947 is fake nation made with people hardly anything common between them. Sooner Indians understand it and go their own way it wll be better. We(or our politicians) will continue to blame others for our own failuers. It is just easy. USSR was another such idea which didnt work, Indians should seriously look at having smaller independent countries."

Heres his comment. Fake nation????? and you want me to acknowledge him as Indian????
Sooner Indians realize this will be better??? sooner you get out of here will be better for you dude.
And his last comment, Indians should seriously look at having smaller independent countries, as such in whole his comment he has treated "Indians" as a third entity, anyhow still even if an "Indian" believes in these sentiments, well, I don't have to be political about it I guess.

You can call me militarily patriotic if you want Squirrel, but for me, the nation which gives you freedom to speak your mind, you don't have wet dreams to divide it. Now that is US and India for me.

If you have an opinion against me, I respect that, and I can take that, but not from the [EDITED] like Vick.

well, his ideas do seem a bit odd. and he did say that he doesn't believe in India. but whatever... trolls.. can't live with 'em, can't deport 'em. ;)

well, his ideas do seem a bit odd. and he did say that he doesn't believe in India. but whatever... trolls.. can't live with 'em, can't deport 'em. ;)

shit! my computer is possessed by demons. pls excuse the multiple posts.

You know what the funny thing is...
The word I used over there, I didn't know that was a curse, I thought it just meant "fool", and it got edited... wow

LOL.. well it is considered a personal attack. and that word can be used as an alternate form for female parts.

Seriously????? lolz
did you do that???

BTW what part??? :p

Ok I am being bit too sleazy now......

Anurag #38:

""All these metros (have you ever been to one of these metros - dont even try - they stink)""

Huh? the delhi metro is pretty clean and runs on time! which metro did you ride my friend?

In addition to Commonsense comment #58

Even all the hottest chicks travel on these metro things dude in contrast to Metro in Houston which is a hub of drug trafficking, homeless and real stink. You gotta take a ride on it, I mean metro, to know what you are missing on.

BTW CS, that was a good one.

I am with vick when he says that country should be divided into smaller states for all practical means of governance. Each state should be self sufficient as far as all governance is concerned.

The only tethering force should probably be a common military and that too because its collective might can protect all the states from external aggression more potently(Unity being strength). But given that world overall is moving towards concept of global village, even that need may get weakened in times to come. At max you could have a common judiciary so that issues between states can be resolved amicably and justifiably.

One of the underlying concepts behind this idea is that the more close is daily governance to the people, the better is its performance. Panchayat raj is an excellent example of why and how this principle has worked(and always did) among rural masses so effectively.

A large nation where people are separated by miles from the ruling class is nothing but a monolithic rolling stone which can never gather any moss.

People should be segmented and allowed to flourish as independently as possible in order enable diversity. Whether they want to adopt socialist, democratic society or a regimental governance or a capitalist one should be left to people of that state to decide. If one is worse that other in terms of welfare of people, it will soon be forced to give way to other in light of fierce competition from other(or neighbouring) states.

People should be encouraged to collaborate and compete(even if fiercely), but should not forced at any cost to remain together as is done by one constitution policy of countries like India . If people feel the need to come together they would always collaborate in just those specific areas and not in anything beyond that.

The corner stone of Indian kind of democracy is the assumption that people are fools who need somebody to govern them. This stinks of colonial mentality and undervalues self managing ability of people by making the state look like some kind of demi-god or maharaja who is supposed to look after its praja. This results into an awfully large gap between the people who pay taxes and the service providers (e.g. politicians, bureaucrats, govt bearers) with practically no accountability. The idea of one single nation though may seem very lofty and patriotic but is destined to fail, if it is not overhauled soon.

Anurag:

""India has failed!!! We have failed as a nation. All the chest thumping that we do everyday about a rising power is pure bs.""

The only one who seems to be thumping his chest at the moment is you. Even though you forgot to put the exclamations marks after the second sentence...

Mr. FF #60,
Your post baffles me to no end. You want common judiciary with different government, you want laws to be the same but constitution to be different in every state?????

First as far as I know about India, and you can say I know $h!t, India gives right for every state to choose its own type of government, communist/socialist/or any other form. Bengal has always been under communist rule, UP has been under casts based parties, South Indian politics have always been a language based politics. So I do not know what else you mean by having different type of governance.

Your idea to me sound like that of separatists rather than a unifier. Right now every state has a semi-autonomous status, imagine if it becomes autonomous, why would Punjab give its crop? why would Haryana leave its water for Delhi, why would north east give its tea? Maharashtra its funds for economic development, at the same time it will be a huge task for factories in Maharashtra to get the raw material.

And you give a great example of Panchayat system, the ones who give orders to women to march nude, anul marriages, Hindu Muslim tensions etc. I guess Panchayat system should be scrapped out completely. They have their own laws, their own justice system, own punishments.

Ms Nadkarni,
Which great nations are you talking about here? Which are those nations where countrymen cant understand each other and have to borrow a foreign lanugage for conversation? Where almost in every part of the country their are people demanding that they are let out. Where central government sends militry from time to time to keep things in control? I think India is spending too much resources(human and economic) in keeping everyone together forcefully. I am sure one day all of us will realize it and will go our own way peacefully.
I wasnt talking about getting rid of Hindi film industry because of marginalized portrayal(like it potrays tons of North Indian any better. I am sure all Biharis are portrayed as good ppl, right?) of Marathis, but it will definately help in reducing the number of North Indians(NI means Bihari and UPite here) in Mumbai. Why would you want an Industry which doesnt speak your language, spreads ugly north indian culture among your city? A lot of criminal elements also will go away with this industry as they finance it. Mumbai will become a peaceful place inhabited by MNS/SS folks. There will be lot less whoring, pimping, gambling, drinking, eve teasing....all those bad north indian things.

Ms Panse,
I wasnt aware that DadaSaheb was Marathi Manoos of MNS type. Well internet provides new information every day. So A Marathi Manoos started the film industry which brought in ugly North Indian culture and people in the city. Now another Marathi Manoos with support of others wants all of them out.
BTW Why would a Marathi Manoos will start Hindi Film industry? Out of love for Hindi Speakers or a business venture?

Vick: Let me try to address your diatribe as best as I can. You have to understand that my world being bigger than yours it is difficult for me to come down to this level and address your petty, pseudo nationalist insecurities.

1. While I think a lesson in History/ Geography is due for you, DC authors/ editors don't owe you one. So the "Which great nations?" question will have to find an answer on the internet, or better still, in history books.

2. People don't always understand each other and the change that this friction brings about is what keeps a nation moving forward. I think it gives people healthy competetive edge while keeping the differences alive. The only thing that could turn this ugly is insecurity: Insecurity on part of one community, may it be Marathi, Gujrati, Begali etc. The insecurity that somehow another coomunity is getting an edge over them. Only loosers look over their shoulder in a race this universal.

3. Now coming to the "use of a foreign language" concern, I suggest you find it in yourself to evolve a bit. English is a global language. The top universities and schools in our nation teach in this language. The popular media uses this language. Why? Not because we are "slaves to the English man" as is alleged by the pseudo nationalists BUT because progressive people are confident enough not to be threatened by a basic communication tool such as language. Such people look beyond the means and towards the goal. The means being use of language and the goal being getting the message across. Which may explain why you are typing out YOUR COMMENTS in English!!

:)

4.India's cultural heritage encompasses all Indians: North, South, East West and therefore none of the individual cultures can threaten it. Our culture and most importantly PEACE is in fact under threat from people such as yourself who in their zeal to adhere to conservative, restrictive ideas are disrupting the peace of a nation that is rich in culture, history, languages, religions and has the strength to overcome the perceived differences. The rest of us can only find solace in the fact that since the fittest survive, your brand of ideas will eventually die out.

5. I watch foreign language films as well. I love them and appreciate the art they represent. I can do that because I know that language is merely a tool for expression. I have never woken up feeling like my cultural validity was suddenly fading away as if it were superficial make-up. Cultural identity should be stronger than that I think.

6. Lastly, about your concern of "criminal elements": criminal intent does not have language or regional barriers. In my days in Mumbai I have seen as many Marathi goons as any other. So please, spare me.

For me a it is a crime to violate somebody else's rights and freedoms. And in that sense all the pseudo nationalists disrupting national peace, integrity and unity are the biggest criminal frauds of all times.

I am not sure HOW these criminals can sleep at night after everything they do all day to pull back a nation so determined to move on.

64 Vick: To get a more educated view of who exactly the "Marathi Manoos" is you should read the following article:

http://desicritics.org/2008/02/14/112253.php

The Marathi Manoos is simply Marathi Man...Dadsaheb Phalke was one. The MNS only claim to represent him. It is stupid to assume that the MNS and the Marathi Manoos are one and the same.

I don't know if this Vick guy is for real, or someone from our good old neighbors just trying to piss us off...

It is true that the Media distorts opinions-but we saw perfectly sane mumbaikars saying that north indians had taken away their jobs.Amid all the heated letters to and froing on this issue my original point-complicity with the sena's 1992 genocide has come back to haunt the non- marathi hindus, has not been disproved.Modi's misdeeds may reappear like Banquo.Karma is powerful.

You want common judiciary with different government


U seem to be in some kind of hurry of missing the train...I said common judiciary for resolving issues between states and "not" between people of the same state. And that is because states will have to live in harmony with each other in case of conflicts.

Your idea to me sound like that of separatists rather than a unifier.

Yes I may sound like one, and i have no regrets, because i believe that governance and nations are mere tools for people and not other way around.


Right now every state has a semi-autonomous status, imagine if it becomes autonomous, why would Punjab give its crop? why would Haryana leave its water for Delhi, why would north east give its tea? Maharashtra its funds for economic development, at the same time it will be a huge task for factories in Maharashtra to get the raw material.

First of all when I propose more autonomous governance, many states "may" turn out to be even smaller than what they currently are. Secondly, It is no shocking to conceive such idea, since Indian (sub continental) civilization has existed for at least 5000 years under similar arrangements. Europe with its numerous countries is an glaring example of success of such ideas and today it stands to challenge and overtake "The big brother USA" in every department. Indeed some countries in Europe are smaller than many states in India. Even USA has relatively more autonomous governance for its state than what a monolithic country like India has.


Secondly, I do not see any need for Punjab to gift crop to others or for Haryana to gift Yamuna to Delhi or north east to gift its tea garden or Maharashtra to share its factory produce with others. I think we are all aware of something called trade and business. Let people of each state choose how to collaborate with others. The single most important entity of a state are its people. A state would vanish and give way to others to, if it does not or is not able to care for its people. To amalgamate and collaborate should be left totally to the states(and its people).

The underlying idea is not to tie up people up by some kind of constitutional or virtual force, but rather to encourage them to specialize and collaborate. Current system limits the choices available to people by enforcing people to live per certain defined terms decided by someone else even before his birth. More diversity would indirectly imply more choices available to people and allow them to hop from one place(where they may not be fit) to another place where they are deemed more fit.

Obviously all this comes at the cost of increased responsibility of Individual making that decision, but then making people more responsible towards where they plan to live is the underlying strength of this idea.

@#68updike
Yesterday I encountered two supposedly 'decent' people, who think what is happening is totally justified. The guy said, "Well, maybe we could have done without the violence, but it is just a side effect. You can't avoid side effects."

Or to paraphrase, Donald Rumsfeld - Things happen.

Regarding some policemen joining in with the 'go back' viewpoint, he said, "Well, they are only human after all, the police - and with what is happening, it is only natural that their 'Marathi asmita (pride)' has awakened!"

Listening to him made me lose more of my pride in being Marathi.

The girl said, "I don't see why all those people have to come here anyway. Think of it this way - what if your house has room for only 10 people and 100 people try to squeeze in? Perhaps we should make a law that they can come only for 5 or 6 months, like when you go abroad on a visit visa and can't stay for ever. Or maybe we should impose an extra tax on them for staying here. What do you think?"

I think fascism is just plain wrong. Whatever excuses and reasons you can find for it.

India gives right for every state to choose its own type of government, communist/socialist/or any other form

Never did I say that India has no rights reserved for its states. However there is lot (and when I say lot I mean it) of scope for the center to let go the leash it has on the common people. What I am more concerned is the underlying wave about the current arrangement which favors itself to having more and more strong center rather than an arrangement which ideally would favor more and more dissemination of power away from center, in turn making the center (the concept of country as one strong nation) increasingly redundant with passage of time.

A lot of the confusion in the above comments arises from people thinking Bombay is Maharashtrian.

Actually perhaps one-third of the people of Bombay are Maharashtrian.

Soon the city will become a state of its own like Delhi -- I predict within the next five years.

Then the Marathi Manoos can retreat to Poona (which is apparently doing quite well economically) and carry on building Marathi pride back where he belongs.

And give Bombay back to the Bombayites.