The Tata Nano: The Second Coming or Satan's Car?

the only reason I am happy about this car is that maybe now I will see less families of 6 on one rickety motorbike, mother precariously holding on to a newborn with a 5 year old perched on the handlebars, all driving in the rain.

No AC, no power steering, safety sucks, 650cc engine, 70 KPH top speed... no thanks!

I dont think many are going to buy it because there'll be a "cheap car" tag attached to it always. Owners of more expensive cars will look down on it... "the cheap little thing!"

Amrita and SS, that is one compelling moral reason to welcome this car. Those who complain about congestion are those who never had to take their families out on two wheelers which is so risky. It just smacks of elitism on the latters' part.

As far as emissions go, we still have no policy to phase out two-stroke engined two-wheelers. Mind you, these pollute far more than an average car.

And if congestion becomes bad, cities will start spreading out. We will have more self-contained suburbia, similar to what happened in the US after the Interstate system got developed there in the 50s and 60s. In places like Bangalore, this is long overdue.

Any conclusion drawn on the enviromental and other effects cannot be statistically supported because the car is not in the market. This is the mistake that the environmentalists are making.

Its going to crowd a lot of cities, and that may for a change make people demand better road infrastructure.

Another effect is that people may chose to go somewhere less crowded to shop, because the suburban infrastructure is getting better, so that would mean better distribution of traffic and therefore probably LESSER carbon emissions contrary to what the hyperbolic environmentalists suggest.

We do not have statistics to even estimate the impact of the car, so it would be dumb to draw conclusions.

That apart i honestly believe that many of the enviro-fundamentalists are out there because they do not want to see india or china developing, because it would bring a big question mark on the cheap cost of luxury that their lives afford them. I would not want a single western nation dictating terms to us. I would want us to kick their ass unless properly sampled statistical data is provided.

Looks good though. The interior is also good. Spacious.

I dont get this congestion and pollution thing.

Buses, trucks, autos, cars... they all cause congestion and pollution. How does Nano change anything?

Yes, an increase in the number of cars is going to cause increasing congestion but Tata Nano is not the only car that is going to increase in number in the future.

We are going to see more buses, more trucks, more autos, more Santros, more Honda Citys AND more Tata Nanos.

ledz... I do not think it "smacks of elitism" to want to keep the environment in some kind of workable order. I think what needs to happen, though, is that taxes on the almighty qualis should go thru the roof to even things up. but you cannot ignore the problems of pollution and frightful congestion in places like bangalore. it takes me 30-45 mins to travel 2 effing blocks here, and that is a serious problem.

you cannot just say "some people are poor so screw all the fixes" You have to look for equitable and fair ones. you know that!

Completely agree with Led: here is a statement which Howard Hughes made to the lefist parents of his girlfriend: "you dont think money is important because you dont have to worry about money"

The enviro-fundamentalists live comfortable life.. who the heck are they to know the struggle of the people riding an old squeaky motorcycle with 6 kids and a wife on it? Who the heck are they to know the pangs of a developing nation? They view the world in their narrow perverted world view.

Oil consumption is like atomic weapons, no country would give it up but try to make every one else give it up.

In such a fucked up situation, where the countries from which the enviro-fundamentalists originate from are not ready to reduce emissions. What legitimacy have these slander monkeys got in dictating what car we must or must not produce?

laks.... oh come off it. where in hell do you live that you do not see environmental issues as a concern? "slander monkeys"? jeebus, you've been spending too much time on the cricket debates.

anyway, why must this be a zero sum game? it need not be. we can help the poor get cars or some kind of eco-friendly transport without scrapping the whole thing. at the same time we must also make the wealthy take responsibility.

but *everyone* must play a role. India is a huge place, and caring for the earth is not simply the role of the rich. yes, they should inherit the lions share of the responsibility since they do the most damage and have the most money. but everyone must play their part, no matter how small.

I don't see why people who did not buy a used Maruti 800 with better features at the same price point suddenly hop onto their TVS Scooty's and hie themselves to the nearest Tata Motors showroom and trade the bike keys in for a can on wheels?

This is a zero sum game because of a simple reason: No country is ready to reduce emissions below a level.

Replace emissions by nuclear weapons.. you would get the same issue.

Again the issue here is only PARTLY environment. You must remember that governance in india is non existant, so no public means of mass transport is possible anywhere. And out comes this car.

If this car increases the productivity of the nation, i would be more than happy.. do you know why.. then we can have more people thinking constructively about the environment instead of their survival.

Also if you look at suburban indian growth.. this car may change a lot of things.. we shall see the emergence of a true suburban india.

Thats why i am saying. What this car would do to the environment.. polution due to congestion, or reduction of emmission due to the lack of it, we must get the statistics for it before we comment. Until then the froth in the mouth.. "how dare those brown motherfuckers build this car" western media would find it better to mind their own business.. like say warding off Iranian boats or planning the next strike on Iran :)... what i am getting to is.. one generalization (india + nano== polution + end of the world) is replaced by another (US + oil == war in Iraq and murder of more than 300,000 Iraqis) Both are realities but not entirities :)

To put things in perspective, there are 8 cars per 1000 people in India compared with about 500 cars in the US. And the average US car gives half the mileage. So it is plain evident the environmentalists are barking up the wrong tree.

And suburban sprawl is to be welcomed anyway. For one, it will cause the prices of property to dramatically fall and make decent housing affordable to a greater section of the population.

All hail the dinky Tata Nano!! Sounds better than Reva which needs to be plugged in every two seconds;)

The next time my son asks for a Hot Wheels car, I think I'll get him a Nano.

They should tie up with Apple for promos - imagine the bundling - Buy Nano, get Nano free:)

but laks and ledz... you guys make it seem like the environmentalists are racially motivated and they are not... they simply want everyone to reduce emissions.... laks, you're way out of line making this look like a color issue... they go after every country, white, brown, yellow... stop making this look like some big bad US agenda against the brown people... you just seem monsters in EVERY corner, don't you?

And a lot more spacious too, it seems. Small wonder the Reva has died a natural death. Hardly come across it in Bangalore these days, compared to 3-4 years ago.

What colors will the Nano come in?

Right now the Nano costs as much as a Second hand Maruti car and has the same power as a gas driven maruti van which means frequent gear shifts,acceptable considering the stop and go conditions in city traffic where one is mostly crawling anyway.Its definitely not a long distance car.Imagine also in a few years time when people start getting rid of their old Nanos....what would they cost then?...75,000?....60,000?....we are seriously looking at something in the range of bikes.....what do you know....colleges would have to allot additional parking space...pretty soon you'd have the teeny boppers making out in their Nanos instead of attending class....all thanks to Ratan Tata :))

Anand, the way I see college girls will be that much safer in their Nanos instead of being groped in public buses. Its win win for the two legged on the road but yes car pools and corporate buses seem to be most obvious solution to congestion and traffic pollution.

Aaman- 10

That is because it was a 'used' car. India's used car market is highly unreliable. No wonder very few are ready to buy a 'mercedes' for 10 lakhs!!

Amrita

Excellent piece!

In my view, any innovation is good. The other things will take care by themselves (like everything else in India).




BTW ............average Global temperatures have dropped since 1998....global cooling kya?

Wow Amman buys his sons 1 lakh cars as toys and to think of the number of hits i've enabled on his website to make him the filthy rich bugger that he is.Anyway the nano looks only fit for a drive on the golf course

Kela, one more click and I will buy myself a BMW...no wait a Jaguar...no they are very racist...back to the Nano!;)

SS: I totally understand your concern.. But you should see the slanderous face when idiots out here report about this car.

They have facial expressions are like: "How can poor people come up with such a car???, its impossible, they are snake charmers still... now look what they have done.. the oil prices are $100 a barrel.. and they are going to melt the polar ice caps" All this without knowing the parameters of the car, without knowing the traffic situation in india, without knowing the Indian mamrket. THey do not even have any statistics to prove the apocalypse thhat the enviro-monkeys claim to happen would happen. All they know is to create more fear with biased reporting based on some random statistics WITH no actual sampling.

When a media that shouted WMD when there was no physical evidence found, i have to ask the sensible people in the west (there are a few i asssume) to hold their horses and try to get real data, and then see for themselves if the enviromonkeys are saying the truth

Western Media reporting on Indian Issues == Stupidity, ignorance and boorishness on its peak :)

Its not a monster that i am seeing.. Its the above three properties.. which sadly made the US people support the genocide of Iraqis :) and pretty soon would make them support the genocide on Iranians.

The "people's car" is a wonderful example of India's mid-20st Century mindset and its squandered chance at 21st Century development. My short essay on this can be read at http://memestreamblog.wordpress.com/2007/10/12/india-going-nowhere-fast/.

And here's a pisser about all the time it takes to get from Pondicherry to San Francisco. The night before I left India, I sent a short Letter to the Editor of the New York TImes on this subject. Last night, having arrived in San Francisco, I checked my email to find a well-aged message from the NYT saying they wanted to publish my letter, but needed my immediate answers to their follow-up questions. Looks like I was too late. Bummer.

MBJ
http://memestreamblog.wordpress.com

Mark: Ouch... your critique really is kick ass...

Here is the Gem that summarizes your entire thought process about India:
Most tout this kind of industrial muscle and burgeoning consumer acquisitiveness as signs of a brilliantly expansive, vital economy. I see it as further evidence - as if more was needed - that India is a second-rate country with first-rate promise, limited by third-rate imagination and fourth-rate fidelity to the values and traditions of its proud past.

Put another way: India is squandering its Twenty First Century economic opportunity with its mid-Twentieth Century mindset.

So what should we do sir?

Should we turn communist and say.. hey if we dont build the roads... you don't buy nano...and guess what... we wont build the road either.

Should we say.. hey if you are less than 17 years of age and dont have any means to support yourself DO NOT WORK BECAUSE YOU WOULD BE PROMOTING CHILD LABOR, guess what.. we wont support you either...

If you still dont get it.. india is an organic free market. If you apply the conventional Factory formula that you have for us, you would be more happy to be in china than in india.

We are a drunken man falling towards development.. now the thing is.. the govt is getting the gist of how to go about this and they are letting the industries to take the drive for everything that you said. There might be one step backwards.. but there will always be 3 steps forward.

Now: Thanks for generalizing that Indians have fourth rate fidelity, third rate country and no inventivenes.. we needed someone to say the obvious.... or is it obvious to only you mark... please educate us fourth rate citizens, shall you?

Lakshmikanth:

What you fail to grasp is that my comments are borne out of love for India, and frustration.

True, my commentary is harsh -- and deliberately provocative. But who would argue that Indian development priorities reflect anything other than making a quick buck? Industry and government work hand-in-glove to profit from the destruction of our natural environment, the ruination of our towns and cities, and the debasing of traditional culture. The Indian consumer is complicit, of course; as is the apathetic body-politic. But these conditions are actively fostered by government and industry, so perhaps the average citizen is less blameworthy than it might otherwise appear.

One way of looking at the lack of planning or vision from the government is to say that it has wisely abdicated responsibility to the natural brilliance of the free market. (That's your argument, as I understand it.) The problem is: corporate interests and social interests do not match. The profiteering marketplace may be a wonderful mechanism for setting the prices of goods and services, but it's artificial stimulation of consumption has proven pernicious, and wholly unsustainable. Better for the market economy to operate within a comprehensive vision, with corresponding regulation and incentives.

The better understanding of development in India is that those in government willfully fail to plan comprehensively because they personally benefit from ad hoc development. When road expansion and other public works projects are doled out, the various ministers and secretaries make crores in kickbacks. When industry wants to take over agricultural or tribal land for the latest SEZ, the politicians and bureaucrats get rich on bribes. In an ironic Nehruvian twist, the government class is India's most successful Self Help Group.

It is quite sad to hear anyone apologizing for these jerks by suggesting that their reliance on the "organic free market" is anything remotely ideological or praiseworthy.

MBJ

I love the car and it is going to be a huge relief to many of the train and bus travellers of crowded cities like mumbai.

Well too bad for the ppl who drive a mercedes...but you know what, the nano is here and the road belongs to us as well.

If and When the mercedes drivers find the road crowded..too bad...get on to the trains. First class passes are less Rs 500 on an average.

Mark you said..corporate interests and social interests do not match.

They do match. Tata made a car for the masses and by that don't you think he took care of the social interests of the lower middle class people who are f***ed up in trains and buses ever single day.

The car is mainly for the lower middle and middle class people...Ratan Tata indeed did have a comprehensive vision for them!

At least sitting in a car in terrible traffic is anytime better than having ones balls squeezed every single day in trains and buses.

Sorry, Insider, I simply do not agree. Getting anywhere in Mumbai by car is absurd when one could ride the rails. When I'm in Mumbai, I always renew my season ticket for the train -- Second Class, as befits my humble status. The astounding efficiency of the Mumbai rail system illustrates why we need to spend more on public transportation infrastructure -- not something that private industry will ever take up.

MBJ
http://memestreamblog.wordpress.com

At least sitting in a car in terrible traffic is anytime better than having ones balls squeezed every single day in trains and buses.

At least sitting in a car in terrible traffic is anytime better than having ones balls squeezed every single day in trains and buses.

Right on Mark! The problem is that there are too many professional patriots out there who truly believe in the "my way or the highway" adage, regardless of whether the Tata Nano is highway worthy or not. The neo-liberal so-called "freemarket" mantra, one of the most enduring myths, unsurprisingly endures, and of course, not just in India.

Mark you said When I'm in Mumbai, I always renew my season ticket for the train -- Second Class, as befits my humble status.

Why not walk it up? Pad Yatra is better anyday. Benifits of Pad Yatra:
1) Excercise ( for you)
2) Saves Money
3) Saves Fuel

AND

3) One body less in the already crowded mumbai train.

Now that is economic and pollution free method. No need to worry about public transportation and shitty infrastructure problems.

The thing is.. all of the communist high hand henchmen commenting here dont have any statistical studies to prove their point. Other than their self confessed love that flows out from their heart for the underprivileged indians like me, which in itself is condescending :).

But that apart... the same kind of BS was propagated and was used to attack ford when he went forward with his Model T.

only time will tell if Model T history is going to be repeated OR whether the comments that communist racists like Mark who think indians are inferior would come true. But always there would be ass-lickers like commonsense for all using their very common communist sense to jump up and down when Mark Barks...

Lakshmikant not Pyarelal

"But always there would be ass-lickers like commonsense for all using their very common communist sense to jump up and down when Mark Barks..."

I did not expect you to get so worked up. But everyobody needs to get excited once in a while, so please enjoy your andrenaline infusion.

Best wishes.

Common-nonsense: When you support a racist generalizer who says the India in its entirity is a second rate nation out of his "LOVE" and then hates the very corporations who have helped the majority to get out of poverty working against the govt. who has kept the people poort. I have to call you what i called you.

Best wishes... go riding your motorbike like Che... i will try to undo the damage you do.. .if you ever manage to do something :)

Lakshmikanth:

My point about the the course development is taking in India is exactly that "history will be repeated," to use your phrase. India's industrialist stoke the flames of consumerism fully understanding that they can recreate the kind of personal wealth (for themselves) that American industrialists generated in its post-war development. Not a bad strategy for wealth creation; but not particularly civic-minded or beneficial to India.

India wants to relive the 1960s. Sadly, it will.

MBJ

p.s. Knock off the infantile "communist" label. It makes you look foolish.

I find myself siding with Laxmikanth and Ledzius on this.

Amrita, this article does smack of elitism (as Ledzius pointed out).

This is a poor analogy (only to drive the point).

If Tata or some company were to offer free tuition to poor and lower classes of India so that they can ALSO get into engineering colleges, its like the elite and upper classes criticizing the move saying, 'its already too crowded for us, now you want these wretched bastards to get into colleges too, making it more crowded?'

Amrita, unless you represent a group that actually renounced cars and dissuades people from owning cars, your article does smack of elitism and dose of hypocrisy.

I am amazed at the kind of arguments some people are proposing.

If infrastructure is the problem, is it the concern of Tatas?

Its like saying, don't make any packaging materials, because Indians throw it into the nature polluting it.

Instead of correcting the problem - of making the infrastructure better, here were are opposing the moves that are democratizing the luxuries.

Amrita:

because, you know, all that's keeping public transport from becoming a success is Tata's refusal to up the production numbers.

So you are basically saying that TATA IS THE ONLY COMPANY IN THE WORLD THAT MAKES BUSES and the fact that they don't increase their production is a sure sign indication that Indian government cannot increase the public transport?

;-)

I find that very amusing!

#3, Ledzius:

Those who complain about congestion are those who never had to take their families out on two wheelers which is so risky.

Completely agree. Today I was talking to my parents explaining who the targeted customers are.

My mom works in a school in a nearby school. Most teachers cannot afford the usual cars. But with this new car, they are all planning on buying it.

Right now, rain or shine, they have to travel long distances, with their families on a motorbike, even on a chilly night in mid-winter.

They are already thinking of carpooling whereby they pay for gasoline together.

Indians will find innovating ways to use this car.

#12, Ledzius:

To put things in perspective, there are 8 cars per 1000 people in India compared with about 500 cars in the US. And the average US car gives half the mileage. So it is plain evident the environmentalists are barking up the wrong tree.

Completely agree.

here is how Ratan Tata answers this question.

From Deccan Chronicle, 11 Jan 2008:

To a question that Nano will add to the congestion on roads, Mr Tata said that there is a need to build infrastructure in the country. "But infrastructure is something we do not deal with. If today there is chaos, which does not include our vehicle, then there are other reasons for it. Lack of infrastructure does not mean that we deny the people he right to have affordable transport system," he said.

That sums it up, I guess!

If Tata was asked to take up the problem of infrastructure, I am sure he would step up. ;-)

Arundhati Roy once reportedly said that Indian poor do not need mobile phones. She is proved so wrong. Around 200 million Indians have mobile phone (or may be more). Dhoodwala, Autorickshaw-walla, Paper walla, Sabji walla, also have cell phones now.

I am not sure how Arundhati Roy would respond to her daily grocer talking on cell phone. Would she be unhappy that even a grocer has a cell phone now, proving her wrong?

Do we deny the poor the luxuries that we enjoy?

How many of these people who talk about congestion (based on Tata's nano) give up their cars and dissuade people around them from owning up cars?

How many of these people who talk about environment (based on Tata's nana) also take notice that at the same Auto Expo (in New Delhi) so many new models were launched for upper classes of India?

The problem of infrastructure is not that of Tata. If he doesn't sell his car, someone else will (Bajaj has introduce as 1.25 lakh car). Ford and others are also jumping into this market segment.

Do we deny poor people from buying TV just because they are watching TV all day long and hence do not go to fields?

Is it a good reason to criticize the plastic industry just because people throw plastic everywhere? ;-)

Mark and all the communists: Now that i have some time at my hands let me go through the communist Mark Hyperbole:
But who would argue that Indian development priorities reflect anything other than making a quick buck? Industry and government work hand-in-glove to profit from the destruction of our natural environment, the ruination of our towns and cities, and the debasing of traditional culture. The Indian consumer is complicit, of course; as is the apathetic body-politic. But these conditions are actively fostered by government and industry, so perhaps the average citizen is less blameworthy than it might otherwise appear.


You sound like "Pandit" Nehru, the one who screwed india many times over. That apart. Lets say you find a means to "control" this industry... now the guys who would set the policies to control it can be completely corruptible, and it wont help either. So controlling the market is not an option. Because it would end up in a situation called lisence raj, which would land us up in the year 1960.... now anyone with a bit of an economic bearings in their heads would choose 2008 instead of 1960...but Mark. .. but why stop there.. lets go backward when our environment was even less poluted... 1860... ohh why stop there.. lets go back to say .... and then you would end up in a situation where everything was back in the good old days, when we were fighting with the apes for dominance.. I guess Mark's birth was skewed in time.

Now that i stated the problem, let me come to the statement of the problem.. if the govt and industry work hand in hand... is controlling the industry the solution... NO.. its controlling the GOVT.. now how the fuck do we do that... by installing proper democracy.. and one of the assumptions of democracy is that every voter would be completely educated and knowledgeable and that politicians would be honest. In such a case the industry wont be too much of a hassle to deal with. BUT that goes against Mark's logic.. who wants us to be apes instead, and he blares like a pig that we are fourth rate citizens... grow up dude... wake up from you communist pipedream.

So the solution lies in letting the freemarket go on, and try to educate the people. Instead of being more and more leftists like Mark "LOVINGLY" suggests.

Here is the rest of the BS:

The problem is: corporate interests and social interests do not match. The profiteering marketplace may be a wonderful mechanism for setting the prices of goods and services, but it's artificial stimulation of consumption has proven pernicious, and wholly unsustainable. Better for the market economy to operate within a comprehensive vision, with corresponding regulation and incentives.

If the social interests do not match with the corporates no one would buy their products. If society never wanted nano, no one would ever buy it.. What a stupid statement. and it does not stop there the generalizer blares on saying we need a lisencing mechanism to control prices, production etc etc.. does anyone smell Nehru here? I certainly do...

But here is how the argument goes down the drain: If the prices are artificially high, it cannot be sustained without a monopoly and in perfect competitions prices are fair. Anyone who learnt upto the 10th grade would knwo this.. but our generalizer misses his MARK here so to speak :). Now here is how even in case of perfect competition the prices CAN be artificially high.. if all the people out in the industry ask the govt to hike up some artificial charges. This can be destroyed again by having a sensible democracy. BUT .. if you ever dreamt of controlling the govt... there is nothing that would stop you from becoming another North Korea... Mark misses his mark again :)

The solution my friends.. is proper democratic process supported by proper education, which is secular and non religious... and ofcourse to keep hyperbolic generalizers like Mark of the streets :). that way The control is in the minds of the people who go to vote and not with the govt. - industry nexus.

ANd that is already happening with the middle class who are sending kids to school, and unlike what the ignorant, boorish and racist and the mother of all generalizations in one comment about being a Fourth Rate country with a third rate imagination, our middle class is catching up on the lost time. Wealth is trickling down because of industrialization... more people would care to send their kids to school because they can afford it now... its a revolution in its process.. and we would get their despite of what Mark thinks...

Bah.. so much for responding to a third rate idiot who thinks he knows India and economics :)

Sujai fairly asks:

How many of these people who talk about congestion (based on Tata's nano) give up their cars and dissuade people around them from owning up cars?

Damn! The links in DC comments never work!

Here's the URL for the essay on being carless:
http://memestreamblog.wordpress.com/2007/11/15/shanks-mare-once-more/

I dont know what more people like mark want other than an educated country that has a proper democracy.


Is that something so difficult to achieve?

Its already in the process...

Duh!!!!

OOO... now mark wants us to use GREEN transportation...

try to get some working agreement with the gas guzzling nations to reduce environmental effects.. OR to use green solution that affects national productivity and let the poor nations guzzle some gas so that they can compensate for a uniform growth... if you succeed in that come to india and try your gimmick :).. its the same dilemma of nuclear weapons :) everyone has them.. no one is going to give them up

Mark, pardon me while I throw up. You live in a motorized society, and even if you've given up your car, I'm sure you have access to rides from your relatives, friends or acquaintances. India, with its billion+ people has about 7 cars for every thousand people. So please don't come spewing to us when your own country is spewing out far more pollution in wretched excess. The Tata car gets over 50MPG, which is far better than any SUV, and actually even better then the scooters it would be replacing. Let's just remember that Global Warming has been caused by Western countries and not be 3rd World ones. You spend all these decades wrecking the environment, and now you're suddenly preaching piety just in time to deny any poor person some upward mobility.

[edited]

Sanjay:

Your nausea is your problem, not mine. Sadly, a weak stomach is not your only shortcoming. You display a childish inability to see past either/or reasoning and you seem incapable of giving my words a fair reading -- to name just two others.

My thesis isn't that it was a good thing for America (and other developing countries) to develop near-sighted, unsustainable patterns of transportation, but that it's bad when India does it. I argue that the post-war consumer societies of America and Europe were myopic, but that India's failure of vision is psychosomatic, because it involves not only an inability to see things as they are or will be, but even to recognize what has already happened. I argue that India's sin is not the incremental increase in environmental degradation (though that is a perfectly sensible position), but the failure to take advantage of leaning from the mistakes of others. I'm not "preaching piety," as you suggest; I'm preaching thoughtfulness and intelligence.

You assume that I am an American exceptionalist, or at least a chauvinist. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Please do not project your self-evident jingoism on me. The fact that you are not constitutionally able to find the slightest shred of fault with your own country should not lead you to assume that others are so uncritical of their surroundings and affiliations.

I understand that it is easier for you to attack the blunt straw-men of your own creation, rather than assessing the more subtle arguments I have made. But please understand that it embarrasses those of us who have to read your self-involved back-and-forth, which look like intellectual masturbation.

MBJ

p.s. to the DC editors: I know you have a no-vile-attacks policy for the commentary, but I get a kick out of seeing the names I'm called. Plus, I think it is useful for others, who may not have made up their mind on an issue, to gain additional perspective on the nature of the folks advancing a particular point of view. Next time Sanjay goes over-the-top, please let his words stand so that we can see them.

Mark:

You know that there are a LOT of scientific innovations going on in the high energy density alternate fuels area.. now once fossil fuels start to reduce in supply the cost would spiral up but guess what, companies would look to provide alternate fuel cars which use other high density fuel instead of gas (like hydrogen etc etc). Once the mass production of this technology begins we will proceed the next level of energy economy. This can happen in less than 10 - 15 years because a lot of companies are looking into this.

The initial cost of this technology is bound to be high(like say fuel cell or cryogenic hydrogen).But when gasoline supply goes low, the price of gas would be more than this.. then we would have the next level of scientific innovation to cater to the energy consumer. Tata has already tied up with ISRO to do research on this.. however you think we indians are a fourthrate country wiht a third rate imagination....

The basic argument you make is that we are people who have third rate imagination and hence would follow a development model that western societies follows, which according to you is screwed up. And since you are a person with first rate intelligence who had a seven figure income to support that fact, gave all of that up and moved to india to help us underprivileged fourth rate country.

What you discount is the power of innovation, even though its a third rate one, and the power of the consumer market.

Deepti Lamba re #19..at 1.43 lakhs a Nano is still out of reach for those girls who travel in buses.Tata could introduce a pared down version of the Nano(already a pared down car) as an autorickshaw....its about time someone gave old man Rahul Bajaj some competition...time to get rid of those unstable tripods on wheels which give no protection to the passenger in the rain.

[Trash edited: read the comment policy AGAIN sanjay]

Lakshmikanth:

I do not "discount the power of innovation"; I fail to see true innovation in this instance. I do not discount "the power of the consumer market"; I think that awesome power can be both pernicious and made to do the bidding of those doing the marketing, rather than service the collective good of society.

MBJ

[Read comments policy please]

#45, Mark:

Not all of us, however, are hypocrites -- or communists,

I would not go to that extent. Nor did I assume that you were one.

I sold my last car, incidentally, at a time when my income placed me among the most affluent people on the planet

Mark, that's admirable.

You are right, that there is a big problem with India's appetite. However, I congratulated Ratan Tata and I am in admiration of what Tata has done with Nano. There are two things here- one is policy making and governance along with attitudes of Indian middle class, and the other is what I call as a democratization of luxuries.

The first one sucks. Indian policy making is completely reactive, almost never proactive (except few areas). And its governance is in shambles. Planning and building Infrastructure is always a reactive one. We never seem to get out of that vicious cycle - by the time we have built it the traffic has exceeded the capacity. India does not seem to put its money into a massive public transportation either. And the attitudes of Indian middle class to plunder, loot and usurp as much as possible while the going is good. We are, as a nation, adding hundreds of thousands of cars per year into cities which can't handle so many cars.

What I discussed here (and another article that I published Desicritics) is the democratization of luxuries. What Nano has set out to do is allow a common man to drive a car. Why is it so important? You may ask. Just look at small towns of India. There are thousands of people, with kids and families, who drive on major roads on their bikes - where kids are precariously balanced, even in chilly nights or in scorching heat. Whether it is late night or early morning, in rain or in a storm. Such people would benefit from this. What's wrong in giving the luxury to a common man? It's like giving TV, radio, mobile, motorbike to a common man. Now, it's giving a car.

Sujai,

What you say makes sense to me!

Mark quotes...

# 28When I'm in Mumbai, I always renew my season ticket for the train -- Second Class, as befits my humble status.

and then a helpless jump to prove that he is a sacrificer, someone who can set an example!!

#45 I sold my last car, incidentally, at a time when my income placed me among the most affluent people on the planet

Sheeshh...is that lies or what? Shouldn;t this person be called a liar?

Mark #54,

"rather than for the collective good of the society" Karl Marx said the same thing. Soviet Union was founded on the same principle.

the question here is: Who is going to decide the collective good of the society?

If i give that power to u, you will get corrupt and misuse it (so will anyone else). if u give it to a comittee you are building a communist nation. if you give it to the people, who are illiterate.. you have a dysfunctional democracy like Indias(which is getting better by the day), if u give it to literate people without proper access to information... you are going to find WMDs in Iraq and mass murder Iraqis..

Now ideal democracy is the best way where people are completely rational and have complete access to information. Such a society will never exist and so your aim is a pipedream.

Now lets come to the question of economy: if you create a controlled economy.. you would end up with corrupt indivduals controlling it. and so on and so forth... the only way to let society take care of it is by having a free market, ofcourse the assumption is that people are rational and they know everything, which is an utopia.

However a non-utopian democracy with a non-utopian free market is far better that stalinist russia or maoist china. Do u get why i call you a communist.And why i consider your armchair advice to india unsolicited bullshit?

Being a first rate imagination driven individual with seven figured income and rolce-royce renouncer, you must have something to teach even Adam Smith or Keynes. Or even greats like Ayn Rand or Howard Hughes.

but i guess if you could not achieve what you aimed for in the US, then you probably cannot do that in India. Why are u wasting us third-raters time and energy, let us write code for microsoft, google intel or develop communication chipsets for qualcomm.

Lakshmikanth:

You are boorish and offensive, but you raise just enough of interest (albeit knocking down straw-men of your own creation)to keep the discussion going.

Sure, Marx was concerned with creating a structure to benefit the common social good. But so is Wall Street. Both Marxists and free marketeers think they have the answer. The communists were easily proven wrong by their tragic, badly failed social experiments. The problem is, most capitalists see only the good in their system and cannot abide any discussion of the problems it raises for basic issues of social and distributive justice. (Just as few Indians seem to abide any discussion of the flaws of their generally wonderful country.)

You get no argument from me when you say, "[A] non-utopian democracy with a non-utopian free market is far better that stalinist russia or maoist china." I think we can do better, though. And I think India, because its unique situation, can do a lot better.

It won't, however, because folks like you have more personal ambition than they do hopes for their country; more selfishness than compassion; more complacency for pat, simplistic ideologies than creativity and boldness; and stronger desire to copy learned notions of success than to develop new standards commensurate with a vision of a sustainable future.

You may have the last, red-baiting word. I'm bowing out.

Cheers,

MBJ

Wow, okay so this discussion took a life of its own, huh?

Ledzius and Lakshmikanth - climate change is a fact of life and unfortunately the climate doesnt particularly care whose emission levels are higher or whose history is what or whether XYZ is a hypocrite: they affect everyone equally. I agree with Mark that India has a genuine chance here to get ahead of the curve. As this century goes on, fossil fuels will continue to get more and more expensive and sooner or later it's going to get scarce. And eventually someone or the other is going to find an alternative source for fuel. This will not only be a necessity and a life-saving one at that - but it's an opportunity to cash in. Plus you'll get to lord it over everyone else in the high moral ground stakes if that sort of thing excites you. [You=general, not you specifically] Opprtunities like these are rare and if more companies like Tata, with their kind of resources, tried to develop a cheap hybrid or even an alternatively fueled car, they'll be sitting on a goldmine.
Mark is also correct when he says that this is not a 100% Indian built car. Bosch is just one of the many companies that have contributed to its making. And this is no way a slap on Tata - I can't think of a single carmaker today who sources every bit of their car from one country. In America, ironically, Toyota is the carmaker that utilizes the most number of American-made parts.
So where you guys see offense, I see opportunity. Had I been a scientist or had Tata amounts of moolah, I'd have been putting up camp at R&D.

Mark - you can't tick other people off for boorish behavior when you go around making boorish comments. By your own admission, your post was "deliberately provocative". I'll accept your word that your intentions were of the best but this is a country that's had to suffer 200+ years of other people telling it what to do for its own good, so deliberate provocation isn't about to get your message across, good intentions or not. In terms of recent history, all Indians heard for 50 years was "Indians are commies and they should open up their market". Finally we broke down and did and now all we hear is, "The Indians are coming and they're entering our market". So there's a reason why people like Ledzius and Lakshmikanth get mad.

Chandra - thank you :) and thats why it's called climate change instead of the old global warming.

Sujai - read that para again. You'll blush :)

Atlantean - people arent embarrassed to buy bicycles so why should they be embarrassed to buy the Nano? Plus, it all depends on the marketing - with a little bit of positioning, they can change this from "cheap" to "trendy" for kids with cash or people who're buying their first car or need a second city car. Thats why we have variants.

Everybody - thank you for reading

#54, Mark:

I do not "discount the power of innovation"; I fail to see true innovation in this instance. I do not discount "the power of the consumer market"; I think that awesome power can be both pernicious and made to do the bidding of those doing the marketing, rather than service the collective good of society.

I am not sure why you say there is no true innovation in this instance. Is it because it is the cheapest car?

I believe there and know that there is innovation when you try to make something the cheapest.

This is what I wrote in this context:

It is no ordinary feat! Making the cheapest car is not about being cheap. When you have a car that does everything what others do but yet is very cheap, it is an engineering and business marvel. While making it, one has to go back to the drawing board and relook at every strategy that you knew about car making and then ask yourself, 'Is there a cheaper way of doing it, and yet retaining its function?' It's an ideology that you have to embrace in your thinking - in business and engineering.

Maruti-Suzuki, the biggest car seller in India, conceded that they cannot put together a car for Rs. 1 Lakh, and went onto add that it's an impossible task.

Tata has put together 32 patents while making this Nano.

Again, Deepti arbitrarily deleting posts which don't conform to her political views. You can't be a moderator and a partisan at the same time. Clearly an unethical policy.

Mark: No sustainable development has happened in human history without rational selfishness. Socialism, any form of it, destroys rational selfishness and it manifests into irrational selfishness, then you have peoeple like stalin who would kill in order for his selfish motive of control

Please find a counter example where something that suppresses rational selfishness has been used for pure positive development with no side effects, so that this third rater can learn from you--O first rate God :)

Now the only way i can see India doing better is by better quality of education, better access to education and of course trying to find scientific means for developing alternate energy, add an honest media to it and you have a great country.

If thats what you want us third-raters to understand then many of us knew it before u set foot on our under-privileged land. And there are a lot of people out here who are looking for that opportunity. I dont think we need your seven-figure first rate arm-chair-general services to figure out our bearings:)

And regarding the fact that we are not a big engineering power.. refer to what amrita has said above.. we have some 20 years of history as far as engineering education goes. Compared to an average of 200 years in every other "developed" country, wait and watch in your arm chair sir.

Refer to Sujais post before, it says how technology was managed, technology management comes before pure technology development. you know why? because you manage a technology to create a finished product no matter where the technology comes from. This is the first step to pure technology development. Guess what, just by managing the technology here TATA and others has filed 30 odd patents. Well we third raters can manage and innovate so far.

I am sure TATA would be looking into alternative energy area. I am already aware of a tie up with ISRO to provide hydrogen fuel cells into a small car, that would have Nano's shape. But you would doubt that.. rite.. after all what can we stupid third rate country with a fourth rate imagination do?

Amrita: I always wondered why indians are soo respectful of such foreign arm-chair generals who go about telling us what to do. Why dont these people go back to their countries and die quietly??? Especially when someone had to give up a seven figure income and a rolce royce to move to india, what does that measure? it can measure stupidity, or it can measure what i call the "Che-Guerra" factor. Also Mark the first rater gets a lot of pleasure in telling us that he was a seven figure income guy with a rolce royce who gave all of that up to serve our poor fourth rate imagination by being an arm-chair general out here and constantly reminding us from the love that flows out of his ass that we have a third rate imagination. What an condescending idiot!

Sujai:

I guess we have something like 5 Engineering degrees between the both of us, probably not as much as the seven figure income that Mark renounced but still good enough to judge albeit in a third rate way.

From what i read and know about auto engineering, a small car at that cost would take a lot of innovation in the following fronts:

1) Pure Technology development-- this is to develop the components that would go into this car that would make it damn cheap and operational based on some standards.

2) Technology configuration -- this is to get access to technology and configure larger units so that they perform within the design requirements.. quite a lot of innovation goes on in this area, and quite a lot of patents are generated as a result.

3) Product configuration -- this is to get technology modules work together as a complete product.. quite a lot of innovation here too.

From what i know of the car (1) and (2) were partly sourced from other countries (this statement would keep Mark excited and happy) but most of it is TATAs own. Including the Requirements and the Design, which is more important to a product than pure technology.

If you look at the investment pattern of any industry you would find the same pattern. A lot of money goes into figuring out the product requirements and design parameters. Somewhat lesser amount goes into technology confguration. Still somewhat lesser goes into universities as funds to develop pure technology.

Now coming to Mark's statement that there is no "Real" innovation here.. you must know that Mark is here with a mission to teach us third raters on how to live and develop. Now any technology that goes against his philosophy is not a "real" innovation, any technology that supports his philosophy is "great" innovation. Let him try this BS in the US first and then come to us in his arm chair to tell us what to do.

You may have the last, red-baiting word. I'm bowing out.

Mark.. please get out of India too, it would be probably the greatest service you would ever do to us third raters.

I second that.

Sanjay,

Mark is a wave of foreign missionaries to enter India who are on an Intellectual Charity mission. Like the xtian missionaries out here, scumbags like Mark think that we are intellectually poor, and that is the reason why we are economically poor. intellectual charity operates much the same way as xtian missionaries do.

There was one missionary who said that India is a land with 900 million people living in darkness. He too was in "LOVE" with india. Compare that with Marks statement that 1.1 billion indians have third rate imagination.


It is evident from Mark's statements that he does not think an Indian is capable of rational planning or rational thought, and thats the reason why i called him a what he is,a condescending racist generalizer.

Deep within Mark or any other charity org. is a love for a lesser people, a lesser being that is incapable of giving direction to itself. And has to be guided like you guide a blind man to cross the road. In Marks ethics you do a great service by forgetting your own priorities and guiding a person with poor vision to cross the road. Thats any charities definition of help.

Now Mark set out to India after renouncing a million dollar job (i think he must have been a football player :) ) and his rolce royce car, is a proof of his sacrifice and that in itself, gives him the right to guide the intellectually poor Indians to realize their actual potential. Typical of a racist, condescending missionary. Not only that we do not need people like Mark to begin with. Our nation gave birth to people who brought the green revolution to india, it gave birth to ambani, ghanshyamdas birla, JRD Tata and 100s of other revolutionary thinkers who would Mark look like a small ant in the Jungle of Intellectuals. It is for this reason that i ask that communist to go back to his country and if possible die quietly. Because if he tries his intellectual charity gimmick in the US, he would have his nuts roasted on a barbecue.

Its a pity that we have idiots who think whatever a foreigner says is right, who lick the foreigners ass no matter what he says and be blind to the obvious condescending remarks that he makes. That more than anything else should be removed from the brains of Indians. India's problem is lack of self sense, if there was such a thing.. people like Mark would not have even been able to operate their draconian mission in India.

What on earth is going on here.

well let me first say u do write well.

but being the spokesperson for greenpeace during the launch of our fuel efficiency demand i have to say u got the facts wrong.
point one - the greenpeace demonstration was for mandatory fuel efficiency and not against the tata nano.

the greenpeace position for the tata nano is " the car is a boon if it replaces gas guzzlers in the market. otherwise the nano is a bane.

regards
soumyabrata rahut
climate and energy expert
greenpeace india
+91 98455 35403