Desicritics Comments on The Mumbai Outrage

Comment by noflylist

Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:30:39 EST

Such incidents make me ashamed of being a former Mumbaikar, and I hear one of the stupid sena has come out in support of the accused claiming vendeta against Marathi people, please... spare Mumbai and walk into the sunset... in the sea!

Comment by PH

Tue, 5 Feb 2008 00:15:42 EST

Lekhni, This gets my goat bigtime. Some years ago, a policeman had raped a 16 yr old girl who was walking on Marine Drive with her friends. Almost on cue, Pramod Navalkar gave Mid Day the soundbytes, "In my time a girl from Chembur wouldn't venture alone to Chowpatty" Yeah, right. aisaa hai to kyoN rakkheN aaKhir jeboN meN paise bhii? jebeN to kaT jaanii haiN is shah'r kii bhiiR meN waise bhii Why fill our pockets if they are to be picked, no?

Comment by kela

Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:29:26 EST

u know what ? i have a yahoo chat id called straightshooter,and the stuff abt junkie israelis is published and featured in mainstream national magaznes and news channels.

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:24:01 EST

OK Kela, You call yourself what you want to but I went to some of the bigoted shit you get YOUR information from and saw a pack of Jew-haters quoted and writing there. I'll reserve my own judgment as to whether you are a moron or a mere idiot trying to masquerade as a moron. Just remember that I'm a straight shooter. In this instance, it does not mean that I'm gunning for you (tempted though I might be), it means that I call it as I see it and I don't give a damn what YOU OR ANYONE ELSE THINKS, EITHER.

Comment by kela

Wed, 9 Jan 2008 14:11:36 EST

dalit magazne? i'm no dalit [edited] and i dont care much abt the buddishts either.Lots of tibetan buddhists refugees where i live and the only thing the seem to want to do and are also good at is gambling and bootlegging abt the drug peddling israelis ,havent i talked enough abt this before? they rule the hills by the himalayas,apparently that wasnt enough for them and now they're into synthetic drugs besdes pedlling their shitty trance music.you'll find them in all the drug havens,goa,manali ,mumbai...and you know what they say to indians when they're caught ? israel-india..brothers....real enemy ...the pakis/muslims...you have kashmir prob ..ours wth palestne... and hope to get off the hook

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Wed, 9 Jan 2008 13:53:57 EST

....why is it that all the sons of moses.... Kela, why don't you educate us? You seem like a smart fellow. I don't live in India - I'm a writer from Samaria. I wouldn't know of all the criminal activities that transpire in your country. I have enough trouble keeping up with the crooks and robber barons in my own country. So, tell us all about the evils of the "sons of Moses" for us. By there way, there is a Buddhist text that refers to the evil people and the enemies in the world as "sons of Moses". I don't have the link handy - sorry. Interesting that the very religion followed by the "god-king" of Tibet has this reference..... I wonder if that is where your handy-dandy little dalit magazine picked it up? Did your magazine mention the god-king's ties with Nazis, too?

Comment by kela

Wed, 9 Jan 2008 13:15:37 EST

Ruvy why is it that all the sons of moses indulge themselves in all kiinds of illicit actvities in india,right from growing hemp to dealing in acid and maybe even prostitution

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:55:35 EST

Chandra @ 96, In a land where the beer can and the liquor bottle is worshiped is is Jesus, one can expect nothing less than what occurred in Canberra. There should be no surprise at this article at all.

Comment by kela

Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:45:09 EST

Its amusing to see how the local mumbaites are trying to put the blame on so called "outsiders" when 11 out of the 14 arrested turned out to be Marathis. Similar thing was witnessed in Guwahati during the violence against migrant tribals.The local assamese people then tried to put the blame on the "outsders" but it so turned out that it was the assamese people themselves that were the culprits

Comment by Chandra

Tue, 8 Jan 2008 13:46:20 EST

Australia car festival mob prompts security revamp Mon Jan 7, 2008 10:51 AM GMT CANBERRA (Reuters) - Organisers of Australia's biggest hot-rod car festival on Monday pledged to review security after a drunken mob of hundreds of men surrounded women and demanded they flash their breasts during an angry rampage. The mob, estimated at up to 400 strong, marched through streets at the Summernats street car festival on Saturday in the capital Canberra after authorities attempted to crack down on unruly behaviour at what had been billed as a "family event". "Anybody that brought their family in here would have to be dysfunctional," one security guard told local papers after the mob circled any women it passed, shouting "get your tits out" as outnumbered authorities watched, powerless to intervene.

Comment by Sujai

Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:13:47 EST

FF- You are taking this 'sex toy' argument too far. I am not sure why keep referring to certain people as sex toys. I guess you are trying to make a point- but that is turning out to be ugly. Are we going to define now what constitutes enticement and what doesn't? Does showing hands constitute enticement? Does showing neck constitute enticement? Will someone treat a woman as 'sex toy' if they show their face? Shall we put all our women in burqa? FF, where is your concern for women who take a stroll on the beach with their husbands, where is your concern for women who are working in the field throughout the day? Where is the concern for ordinary people going to their work? There are men who target such women. espc when I do not like their pulic display in the first place. So, what do you mean by 'sex toys' and what do you not like about them when displayed publicly? Also a lot of times i am more seriously but indirectly affected by activities of such toys, ;-) Because any clashes between these toys and miscreants time and again results into some extremely biased laws which may or may not affect my personal life. So, in effect you have made a huge assumption that only certain 'sex toys' get molested! What? In your definition all women who get molested are 'sex toys'? [Do you sit on the board of Taliban?]

Comment by Sujai

Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:05:40 EST

Link: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Bangalore_cops_harass_couple/articleshow/2681896.cms

Comment by Sujai

Tue, 8 Jan 2008 00:05:03 EST

FF- India continues to amaze me. Yesterday I talked about police people colluding with molesters and NOT protecting the women, and here they make news item the next day. Cops harass couple sitting in park ANGALORE: Has moral policing reached Bangalore or was it a case of excessive harassment of law-abiding citizens? A young, married couple, who chose to spend a relaxed Sunday evening at Bugle Rock Park, Basavanagudi, had a horrifying time after two policemen hurled filthy abuses at them, roughed them up, threatened them and took them to a police station. Even more shocking about the intimidation was that Nisha and Vikram (names changed) were merely enjoying the evening breeze on a bench. The couple has been married for four years now. In fact, they were chatting on their respective mobiles around 6.45 pm, when a plainclothes constable approached them and questioned them rudely. Asked if they'd done something wrong and whether he could prove his identity, the constable jeered at them: "Oh, you want to see my ID, I will show you now." Then he pulled Vikram by his collar and roughed him up. Later, a cop in uniform emerged and threatened to kill Vikram. His wife Nisha, a journalist with a national daily, said she would call higher police authorities for help. But they abused her too. When Vikram protested that they couldn't treat her so rudely, the policemen said derisively: "Want to know how we treat you? Come to the station and you'll know." The couple was taken to the Basavanagudi police station in a jeep. When the matter was brought to the notice of the higher-ups, the station in-charge apologized and sent the couple away. However, when the issue was being sorted out by the inspector, the policemen slunk away. They were later identified as Constable Bala Naik and PSI Sharanaiah Gowda attached to the Basavangudi police station.

Comment by kerty

Mon, 7 Jan 2008 19:51:30 EST

FF Laws can deal with symptoms and not root causes. If law and order can solve the abuses arising out of every gender interaction and in every situation and in every corner, we would have no sexual crimes in USA as its laws and law enforcement is the most advanced and proactive. What law enforcement actually would end up doing is to push the abuses from public places to other domains - within families, within relationships, within homes and private spaces. Most rapes in USA now occur as Date Rapes and most molestations now stem form people women already know. What people can not do else where due to threat of laws, they try to get away by doing with someone they know, with someone who lives with them, which someone who is not likely to complain to law enforcement agencies. In India, these crimes get to spread out and take place out in open, with strangers, outside families, outside relationships because they have not been driven out from public domain by aggressive laws. Also when less serious altercations are banished by laws, they manifest with increased intensity and seriousness - nature of sexual crimes escalates. There is no more eve teasing in USA, but seriousness of some of the sex crimes would make even rape sound like petty crime in comparison. Unlike India, people USA do not resolve their conflicts with punches and sticks, they fire machine guns. With all that guns violence, one would wish why not fight it out with punches so minor conflicts do not end up killing people. Like conflict resolutions, sexual urges need safe outlet, when one is missing, they can menifest as serious crimes. When public domian is saturated with sexual and romantic imaginary and titillations, it heightens the sexual energies and fantasies of certain segment of youth that have no where to go in a sexually conservative society and relationships. Given the opportunity and circumstances, it would manifest in unhealthy ways. You can put the band-aid of law enforcement but it can not reach every hot spot to protect the victims. We can pontificate and blame men, society, culture, law enforcement, patriarchy, parents, kids and women all day here, and pass all kinds of laws. But it only diverts the attention from main problems.

Comment by kerty

Mon, 7 Jan 2008 19:50:28 EST

FF Laws can deal with symptoms and not root causes. If law and order can solve the abuses arising out of every gender interaction and in every situation and in every corner, we would have no sexual crimes in USA as its laws and law enforcement is the most advanced and proactive. What law enforcement actually would end up doing is to push the abuses from public places to other domains - within families, within relationships, within homes and private spaces. Most rapes in USA now occur as Date Rapes and most molestations now stem form people women already know. What people can not do else where due to threat of laws, they try to get away by doing with someone they know, with someone who lives with them, which someone who is not likely to complain to law enforcement agencies. In India, these crimes get to spread out and take place out in open, with strangers, outside families, outside relationships because they have not been driven out from public domain by aggressive laws. Also when less serious altercations are banished by laws, they manifest with increased intensity and seriousness - nature of sexual crimes escalates. There is no more eve teasing in USA, but seriousness of some of the sex crimes would make even rape sound like petty crime in comparison. Unlike India, people USA do not resolve their conflicts with punches and sticks, they fire machine guns. With all that guns violence, one would wish why not fight it out with punches so minor conflicts do not end up killing people. Like conflict resolutions, sexual urges need safe outlet, when one is missing, they can menifest as serious crimes. When public domian is saturated with sexual and romantic imaginary and titilations, it heightens the sexual energies and fantasies that have no where to go in a sexually conservative society and relationships. Given the opportunity and circumstances, it would manifest in unhealthy ways. You can put the band aid of law enforcement but it can not reach every hot spot to protect the victims. We can pontificate and blame men, society, culture, law enforcement, patriarchy, parents, kids and women all day here , and pass all kinds of laws. But it only diverts the attention from main problems.

Comment by kerty

Mon, 7 Jan 2008 19:50:18 EST

FF Laws can deal with symptoms and not root causes. If law and order can solve the abuses arising out of every gender interaction and in every situation and in every corner, we would have no sexual crimes in USA as its laws and law enforcement is the most advanced and proactive. What law enforcement actually would end up doing is to push the abuses from public places to other domains - within families, within relationships, within homes and private spaces. Most rapes in USA now occur as Date Rapes and most molestations now stem form people women already know. What people can not do else where due to threat of laws, they try to get away by doing with someone they know, with someone who lives with them, which someone who is not likely to complain to law enforcement agencies. In India, these crimes get to spread out and take place out in open, with strangers, outside families, outside relationships because they have not been driven out from public domain by aggressive laws. Also when less serious altercations are banished by laws, they manifest with increased intensity and seriousness - nature of sexual crimes escalates. There is no more eve teasing in USA, but seriousness of some of the sex crimes would make even rape sound like petty crime in comparison. Unlike India, people USA do not resolve their conflicts with punches and sticks, they fire machine guns. With all that guns violence, one would wish why not fight it out with punches so minor conflicts do not end up killing people. Like conflict resolutions, sexual urges need safe outlet, when one is missing, they can menifest as serious crimes. When public domian is saturated with sexual and romantic imaginary and titilations, it heightens the sexual energies and fantasies that have no where to go in a sexually conservative society and relationships. Given the opportunity and circumstances, it would manifest in unhealthy ways. You can put the band aid of law enforcement but it can not reach every hot spot to protect the victims. We can pontificate and blame men, society, culture, law enforcement, patriarchy, parents, kids and women all day here , and pass all kinds of laws. But it only diverts the attention from main problems.

Comment by kerty

Mon, 7 Jan 2008 19:50:01 EST

FF Laws can deal with symptoms and not root causes. If law and order can solve the abuses arising out of every gender interaction and in every situation and in every corner, we would have no sexual crimes in USA as its laws and law enforcement is the most advanced and proactive. What law enforcement actually would end up doing is to push the abuses from public places to other domains - within families, within relationships, within homes and private spaces. Most rapes in USA now occur as Date Rapes and most molestations now stem form people women already know. What people can not do else where due to threat of laws, they try to get away by doing with someone they know, with someone who lives with them, which someone who is not likely to complain to law enforcement agencies. In India, these crimes get to spread out and take place out in open, with strangers, outside families, outside relationships because they have not been driven out from public domain by aggressive laws. Also when less serious altercations are banished by laws, they manifest with increased intensity and seriousness - nature of sexual crimes escalates. There is no more eve teasing in USA, but seriousness of some of the sex crimes would make even rape sound like petty crime in comparison. Unlike India, people USA do not resolve their conflicts with punches and sticks, they fire machine guns. With all that guns violence, one would wish why not fight it out with punches so minor conflicts do not end up killing people. Like conflict resolutions, sexual urges need safe outlet, when one is missing, they can menifest as serious crimes. When public domian is saturated with sexual and romantic imaginary and titilations, it heightens the sexual energies and fantasies that have no where to go in a sexually conservative society and relationships. Given the opportunity and circumstances, it would manifest in unhealthy ways. You can put the band aid of law enforcement but it can not reach every hot spot to protect the victims. We can pontificate and blame men, society, culture, law enforcement, patriarchy, parents, kids and women all day here , and pass all kinds of laws. But it only diverts the attention from main problems.

Comment by FF

Mon, 7 Jan 2008 18:34:41 EST

#90... My point was that toys are made available under the guise of women choice/freedom. Yes you are absolutely right that toys can not be touched whatsoever. However what I was saying that there will always be curious people in society(whom we call them miscreants) who may want to fiddle with those toys. It certainly is illegal but then to ensure that it indeed remains illegal you have to have strong law and order. Now if these human toys need protection from those miscreants. I can either 1) ask them to stay away from miscreants by means best available to them(e.g by asking them not to be toys in the first place). 2) OR shell out more tax money to get additional security from the miscreants. More often than not these miscreants affect me and my family life too. However I and my family like to play safe(like most other ordinary humans), fully aware that we have limited resources to tackle these miscreants. Me and my family understands this but many of these toys and their manufactures want to take these miscreants head on, using my share of tax money as an available resource. 3) OR ask those toys to shell out money from their own pocket. I can not do 1) because then I am in danger of stampeding on women freedom and women rights and am likely to be associated with one of those miscreants by the same set of toys. I do not want to do 2) because I see no benefit in having toys made available publically espc when I do not like their pulic display in the first place. Also a lot of times i am more seriously but indirectly affected by activities of such toys, Because any clashes between these toys and miscreants time and again results into some extremely biased laws which may or may not affect my personal life. These toys see in only one kind of spectrum known as gender spectrum. So they derive some kind of brute pleasure in castigating on male gender. So I certainly am advocating #3 as my preferred solution.

Comment by Sujai

Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:26:41 EST

#87: I am not sure which kids are you talking about? I am talking about those kids who grow up to molest women, put their hands on the breasts of women, squeeze them to brag to their on their laurels and achievements. Howvere, I would like to apprise you that many of the kids who have grown on this forum(and of many of whom are feminist cheer-leaders) have shown no hesitation in accpeting and asserting their rights to roam naked on streets provided they are not picked(unless given permissions). Thank you for apprising me the situation at hand. I thought this world was far bigger than this forum. Sorry, did we change planets already or are we still on earth? If everyone on this forum is OK with people roaming naked, and if this forum comprises the entire planet, how come we still have molesters and rapists out there? Am I missing something? If those people have no issues with they being sexual toys(with "touch me not" labels), I am not sure which kind of moral policing are you advocating when you say that men should not perceive(i.e think) women(they do not know) as sexual toys. I advocate no moral policing! If a woman wants to be treated as a sexual toy, the guy can treat her as a sexual toy. If the woman says NO, then the guy better take it as a NO, instead of telling himself, 'Ah, she is saying NO, but she means yes!' As far running naked is concerned, it's up to each society what they want to do. If they want to see naked women, then let there be naked women. If they want to see women in burqa, then let there be women in burqa. I am not talking about dress code. I am talking about going to a women, either naked or in burqa, and then pinching her buttocks against her wishes, and then taking her into a corner to have sex with her against her wishes. I am not talking about dress code here. I am talking about doing something to someone physically against their wishes.

Comment by temporal

Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:17:40 EST

pardon FF your von-siffer slip is visible here: My point however is that those human cum toys in public domain are indeed objectionable to many like me as they result into sexual exploitation, degradation and manipulation of males in general. There are many who feel repugnant at such a public display of toys for different reasons. ;)

Comment by Sujai

Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:14:28 EST

#85: Aha, sophistry again. I seem to believe that this is biggest art Indians have amassed in the last hundred years (or may be throughout our history). If you accept that women need to be specially protected in society and must have special treatment compared to men, than you also have to accept that inequality among sexes is desirable and inevitable. Anything else can be deemed hypocratic and much worse, supremacist. Yes, I accept that women need to be specially protected in a society. As a group, women are subjected to more humiliation, more sexual abuse and more molestation and more teasing and more sexual assault than men. As groups they not equal women are not equal to men. As individuals, we are equal. That means we are equal in the eyes of the law, justice, access to opportunity, access to education, access to government. That means, for example, the institutions of law will treat equal a farmer and a billionaire, man or a woman. However, as groups, we are not equal. A black person will represent a group that is underrepresented and hence will be given 'special' privilege to enter employment. A sports player will represent a group that needs to get promoted and hence will be given 'special' privilege to enter a university. A woman will represent a group that is underrepresented and hence will be given a chair in the Supreme Court. ;-) Anything else can be deemed hypocratic and much worse, supremacist. Aha! Another gem here. So, if you agree with me then you are a great man, otherwise, you are deemed hypocrite, narcissist, bigoted, fanatic, racist, supremacist, evil, and all other bad things that I can conjure up in my limited time? [You have to do better than that to engage someone in a debate. You would have to abandon those tricks you learnt as a young boy while debating in school and college and grow up join the ranks of men]

Comment by FF

Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:01:53 EST

The kids should be taught about sex, and then about how to treat a woman as an equal, and not as a sex toy. I think that was an interesting comment. I am not sure which kids are you talking about? Howvere, I would like to apprise you that many of the kids who have grown on this forum(and of many of whom are feminist cheer-leaders) have shown no hesitation in accpeting and asserting their rights to roam naked on streets provided they are not picked(unless given permissions). They have used the rationale of sexual expression/freedom in public domain to justify their sexual advances. If those people have no issues with they being sexual toys(with "touch me not" labels), I am not sure which kind of moral policing are you advocating when you say that men should not perceive(i.e think) women(they do not know) as sexual toys. I guess what should have been said(from a feminist's mouth) is as follows... The kids should be taught about sex, and then about how to treat men and woman as equal sex toys. My point however is that those human cum toys in public domain are indeed objectionable to many like me as they result into sexual exploitation, degradation and manipulation of males in general. There are many who feel repugnant at such a public display of toys for different reasons. Under the universally agreed liberal democratic protocol they cerainly can not fiddle with those toys. However, they certainly can raise their voice and demand for the toys to be removed from public display into their respective private domains.

Comment by Sujai

Mon, 7 Jan 2008 17:00:17 EST

#84: I do not know. As many additional resources as women(who want to drink and roam without fear at 12 in the night) may think should be enough to provide them sense of security, because all along I have strongly insisted that those women be made to bear burden(through additional tax) of those additional security gaurds which will employed to investigate and safegaurd female dignity issues. So is this concern of yours limited to women 'who want to drink and roam without fear at 12 in the night) or even those women in towns, villages of India who are molested, teased, abused and raped? Do you plan to protect only 'your kind' of women? Or does this police force will be installed in every village and town, every nook and corner? What do we do with the present force who turn a blind eye to such molestations and who take advantage of those women who go to police station to report those molestations? Do we keep another police force to catch this police force? ;-) As for police taking advantage of their power to exploit people, then I would say you are grossly mistaken, because men in India(and probably workdwide) suffer may be 100 times more than women at the hands of police. Did I say that men are less exploited than women? ;-) Does the 'fact' that men in India suffer more than women at the hands of police prove that these police would somehow be benevolent to women? I didn't get it. What does your statement prove? Finally, If you want to talk about Police reforms then you need a different platform to discuss it without associating gender dimensions to it. May be. But if you want to think realistically about issues regarding humans on this planet, then I guess this is the forum. ;-) It is not that there are any less males in US who think women as sex toys. The only reason women feel free to roam about in the fashion they prefer is because in those developed countries like US they have a strong, vigilant and efficient police force and investigating agencies. So, 'in those developed countries like US' if a great majority starts to molest (instead of a small minority), including the police, would that 'vigilant and efficient police force' somehow curb that molestation of police too? It's really easy to talk. Some people talk of putting police force everywhere to curb school shootings and gun crimes (yet they continue to happen) in spite of the police force (I guess they were looking after women sunbathing). Some people talk of putting police force everywhere to curb sale of drugs (yet they continue to happen) in spite of the police force (I guess they were walking next to the girls going to dance clubs at 12 in the night). Why don't you look at the statistics on rapes in US? Why do they continue to happen in spite of the police force and such efficient investigating agencies? [You don't have to answer these questions. This is only to understand why certain things happen in spite of our good talk. That's because we missed out on what is called 'ground reality']. [Somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. More at http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm]

Comment by kerty

Mon, 7 Jan 2008 16:31:42 EST

Sujai #77 The 2 women were with their husbands as per post #39 by Reader. That would mean 2 couples were attacked by mob of 70 men and motives are still unknown. Feminists see molestation of 2 women in this episode, and you see it as attack on gays in Shiv Sena state. Last I heard, Mumbai is not a state and Maharastra is not ruled by Shiv Sena. And yes, gays and lesbians and prostitutes do exist in Mumbai. In fact, prostitutes constitute sizable women population in Mumbai and growing, thanks to feminists. Whole neighborhoods are populated by them in Shiv Sena's Mumbai. Those who seek equality of genders have to face the reality that men will brawl with women just the same way as men brawl with other men - there is possibility of physical contact and bodily struggle in any brawl. Persons will always grab and pull weak at body spots of their opponents in any brawl. Just because a woman is involved in a brawl, should not necessiate or be judged by different set of rules in a brawl. Classifying it as molestation or sex crime amounts to special treatment just because a woman is involved in it. If you accept that women need to be specially protected in society and must have special treatment compared to men, than you also have to accept that inequality among sexes is desirable and inevitable. Anything else can be deemed hypocratic and much worse, supremacist.

Comment by FF

Mon, 7 Jan 2008 15:53:50 EST

So, how many policemen do you need? And what do you do when the policemen (who are also men) join the miscreants to tease and molest the women? We bring in military? Then what do we when military starts raping the women? I do not know. As many additional resources as women(who want to drink and roam without fear at 12 in the night) may think should be enough to provide them sense of security, because all along I have strongly insisted that those women be made to bear burden(through additional tax) of those additional security gaurds which will employed to investigate and safegaurd female dignity issues. As for police taking advantage of their power to exploit people, then I would say you are grossly mistaken, because men in India(and probably workdwide) suffer may be 100 times more than women at the hands of police. I do not think i need to dig out statistics to prove that 100 times more men get beaten (often brutally) by police than number of women being molested by them. Finally, If you want to talk about Police reforms then you need a different platform to discuss it without associating gender dimensions to it. Objectification of women has less to do with education or developed state of a country. But their protection has a lot to do with law and order of the state. It is not that there are any less males in US who think women as sex toys. The only reason women feel free to roam about in the fashion they prefer is because in those developed countries like US they have a strong, vigilant and efficient police force and investigating agencies.