The Mumbai Outrage

l:

well said:

But no, we have a society which winks at the men and blames the women. Here lies the larger problem. We have a society that is still deeply ambivalent in its attitudes about women. We deify women, but we also demonize them. We discriminate against them, we deride them. In short, we never believe that they are really entitled to the same rules and the same freedom that we unquestioningly accord men.

don't know how familiar you are with posters here...my guess is you will soon be inundated by von-siffers ... (the children of SIFF)

btw one minor quiblle: have a look at "those", "those" and "them" in the last paragraph - the usage does not pack a punch!

2 of the men arrested for molesting the women and then later realeased on bail are actually SIFFERS. Wait for more news to come.
Apparently they claim that they were drunk .

this whole thing is no surprise. I was watching CNN today and there was a story about human trafficking in India. The assistant commmissioner of police for the worli section basically said that human trafficking doesn't happen and that prostitution is OK because men have needs and if they do not get them met they will rape.

did you hear the comments about what happened to these women from the commissioner of police of mumbai (I think that was who it was, anyway) who said a mountain was being made out of a molehill about this incident? even the police think it is no big deal if women are molested and attacked.

SIFFers on this very site have claimed that rape is only a state of mind, and women should "get over it" and then rape would cease to exist.

you are right, clothes do not matter, intoxication does not matter.. men will molest an infant or rape an 80 year old. the problem is with the perpetrators NOT the victim. it is not about sex, but it is about a sickness and a need to dominate.

13 of the 14 men are Marathis,this flys in the face of claims made by Shiv Sena that the perpetrators were from outside the state

Personally, I would have gone with a larger group of people. We once went to the Halloween parade on castro street in San Francisco (that can get very out of hand) and we were a large group with over 25 people- safety in numbers. It doesnt matter whether you are male or female (especially here in SFO;))

That said, I agree to the part that women should have the freedom to walk where they want when they want- that was one of the definitions by Mahatma Gandhi about a safe nation. another point to be noted is that New Year Eve celebrations include raucous-raunchy behaviour and in celebration, people lose their heads. Given all that, I would NOT have gone out with just a friend. I would have called my hunky neighbor's son if not my husband to accompany us. Just taking a bus ride in daylight can be quite a brush with abuse of person and self.

Until the day arrives when a girl can safely take a busride without being brushed upon, I will not go out to celebrate New Year's eve without a male escort. You can cry all you want. But this is the hard truth that we have to live with until we can educate our sons better and teach them how to treat a woman.

Beauty lies in eyes of beholder...so does lust.

I always wanted to ask one question, if for every abuse towards women in India is to be blamed for the short skirts, tight jeans and tank tops... who do we blame when a girl in saree is gropped, one in salwar kameez gets her bottom pinched or one is burkha is whistled at? is it their indianess that is to be blamed??

I seriously pray that we get western culture soon in India. Atleast then the women in India will be secured. I bet my life that all those fu***g bas***d who rant and blame western culture for every problem in India either have never been to a western country or experienced a western culture.

Girls here can wear tank tops, tubetops or a two piece swim suit, but no guy will dare to touch them without their permission. If this security means western culture...then hell India desparately needs western culture.

Interesting mumbai police or for that matter indian police really dont care what happened in Mumbai...come on people live with it, what flashed in news in Mumbai, happens every hour in Delhi...nation's capital. And we thought capital would be safest place.

Lets face it, we (Indians) are bunch of sex starved hypocrites, who think their wives,daughters and sisters are reincarnation of holy mother (or whatever goddess they believe in) and rest every other woman walking on this planet is a sex toy.

Is it society to be blamed or is it the parents who should be hold accountable??? how many parents teach their daughter to fight back? how many parents treat their son and daughter respectably equal?? How many fathers teach their son to fight for dignity of a woman...any woman.?

Its high times India comes out the of the mind set of Kesariyas and Jauhars, victimising woman in name of honor. Girls, respect does not lie in bearing the insult and shame mutedly, but honor lies in fighting back to maintaining own's dignity. Till we learn this lesson many more incidences will just follow.

I suppose the writer is female.
Lets face it if u have guts to go alone with strange men (claimin to be ur friends) and do masti with them (nothin but drinkin and enjoyin) then why are u so laggard at the next logical step (sexual molestation).

I know some women who are also ok with sexual molestation as they consider it as female power (like male consider their arms as masculine power) then they shd be ready fr the next logical step which is nuthin but rape.

Its nothin but mathematical equation and u are deriving Pythagoras theorem of rape and suddenly say pythagoras is insane.

My advice to women folks is to avoid strange men who flatter thinkin nothin will happen to u.

No wonder where u claim female freedom is best (USA) is where rape occurs every 3 mins and guess what every female in the world wants to be in USA

lomi... it is ignorant men like you who drag society down. please, take your head out of your arse. how dare you blame women for rape.

and who are you to say these women were out with strangers. and it is ridiculous for you to assert that women enjoy molestation!

you are saying that women have no right to go out with friends have have a drink and enjoy? and if we do we should expect to get raped? I guess you believe women should be in the house, barefoot, pregnant and serving your every need.

good luck finding a wife.

(Being sarcastic)
no no
I want women half naked roamin arnd indian streets. Flirtin wit me. Have casual on/off relationship wit me. Have more than a drink wit me.

seriously why does a free woman need to roam half aked party wit strangers. I know more than a share of free women in indian society who do not belong to my religion or status (if u consider tat too) but are so well mannered. They study, work and have career at the same time have family and value family more than this crappy strangers. They will never roam wit so called friends in dark hours.

In simpler terms u get wat u seed. These delhi or mumbai gals think US is God level in women freedom then they deserve wat US is having.

lomi... so what you are saying is that only men have the right to go out and have a good time, and if they want to do it then it is their fault for getting attacked. good girls stay home and you are such a liberal guy for letting them study and work, but god help them if they want to leave the house for anything more than going out to buy you more raagi?

screw your religion or status, dude... my husband is also a hindu and brahmin (I assume that is also what you are getting at with your thinly veiled assertion) and he takes great offense at your assertions. do not blame your religion or stupid caste system for your ignorance. also do not blame the west. I bet you've never set one damned foot out of india but you have all this "information" about how it is there.

well news flash, my dear backward boy... the US has a lot less issues in this way than in India. at least there men do not think that if we are out after sundown we deserved to be raped.

i never said guys can roam arnd drunken enjoy wit their pseudo friends. They are more to blame than gals and deserve a severe rebuke.

Coz when a guys goes astray and roams arnd wit his friends drinking and thinking drinking wine is divine. He is not only destroyin himself (his poor liver). He is destroyin his whole family as his family depends on him fr their survival (as in any society in the world man is the bread winner fr the home).

Such guys who destroy their lives drinking and ridiculin gals deserve no part of a good society. I dont bar gals and guys.

Majority of Rapes in USA are Date rapes and majority of molestations are by people whom women already know. It does not take whole male population to become sexually adventurous to manifest these dysfunctions in society, as small as 2 to 3% of male population is enough to do the damage to women society wide. And it does not take all women to be suggestive or provocative to get that 3% of male population out of the wood, a small 2 to 3% of women is enough to bring the beast out of them. So if behavior of that tiny segment of men and women can be forced out from society, it would limit crimes on women. But that is easier said than done. Because, it is hard to pin point exactly who that 3% of population is going to be and what gets them there and gets them going. Is there anything that can be done proactively? Do we have consensus on what women should not do on their part to make men in the society not so adventurous? Most men will behave no matter what women wear or do - we are talking about very small section of men for whom anything women wear or do can be a straw to bring out their beast - what should women do or should not do to avoid attracting such elements. On men's part, what should men do so they remain civilized and gentlemenly under all circumstances? In the past, men were taught to look at women as mothers, sisters, and daughters - but now there is a sea-change in what men are taught - women are promoted as object of desire, glamor dolls, romance subject. Love at first sight, boy meets girls in any setting, women always say no at first but say yes eventually, every women is probable love interest and every male is looking for one - men operate under such culture that promotes aggressive romantic pursuits. While most men would remain within limits, all it takes is few bad apples who define their own limits based on circumstances, as they are often preached in media - always follow your Dil. So far, I have not found out what is this thing called Dil that all youth are exhorted to follow as if Dil is always wiser and superior than rational mind. The scary thing is that some men might actually follow that Bollywood cliche and not use their brain at all. Dil without brain is nothing but unrestrained libido. Add to that a lack of moral or cultural restraints and you have a highly combustible combination on our hand and a dysfunction just waiting to happen, all it needs is a hair trigger, a straw. So all it boils down to is how to civilize men so that even that 3% of sickos do not remain uncivilized. Its not about restraining women, its about restraining beast within men.

Great piece on a sad reality - the reality of yet again, of some men blaming women, the pub-culture etc. etc. for this crap.

Great piece on a sad reality - the reality of yet again, of some men blaming women, the pub-culture etc. etc. for this crap.

Who cares as to what's happening in US. Point is - in India after dark women are vulnerable be they in cities or villages.

It seems we are willing to make excuses for hooliganism and thuggery instead of being horrified and offended by their criminal activities and demanding that they be caught and put behind bars.

Its a crying shame and says little about our society.

~Kerty:

"Do we have consensus on what women should not do on their part to make men in the society not so adventurous?"

Say what???

lomi do you belong to that slum dwelling gutter class shiv sena party?

why kela do ur women also go half naked in streets of mumbai. U seem so offended by this.

lomi, what the hell is your point? seriously? even if they are half naked (which those girls were not) does a women deserve to be attacked based on appearance?

you make NO sense.

are you saying that if you have a hot sister and she leaves the house than she deserves to be raped?

if ur sis goes half naked, with low cut blouse. Do u expect guys to say, behenji kaise ho? aap ko koi mada chahiye.

This is wat u will hear frm guy:
hey hottie are u free tonight? I got bmw z8. We can have jolly time and I can make u really happy.
Now if ur sis goes wit him (which is nuthin wrong acc to u as its her life) then if this guy rapes her even if ur sister wanted only to go out have some drink and have some fun in nite and come home as virgin.


Then Who is to blame fr this? Your sister or this poor chap who wants to juz test drive her.
You guys are pseudo women freedom fighters(in back of ur mind u also want to test drive those half naked women)

uh YES I do expect that even if she goes out dressed in a short skirt or whatever that she should be respected. only moronic sick people would assume that one's dress dictates how you treat them. I am assuming then, that you also feel that prostitutes cannot be raped either since they sell sex. and oh ho! I guess swimming is out since we would be half naked then too. well as you are half naked when you swim, shall you be also raped?

lomi, you make no sense. you cannot form a coherent sentence never mind a plausible thought stream. you are being laughed at and told you don't make sense on multiple threads. have you ever stopped to consider that just maybe you have your head just a bit too far up your arse?

Well the expect india to be another USA in 10 years. We can have rapes every 3 mins. Already we are no - 2 in AIDS. We can be no-1 soon. Also we have some respect fr women, next gen will see our women sayin wearin saree as taboo.

Abt me being laughed at various threads. Lets face it, u guys are losing every argument and ur only line of defence is we are racists and therefore we are correct.

In truth the world is laughin at u guys incl USA.

Von-male feminists(sorry, von-profeminists)

siffers arn't commenting on this issue until now.May be they won't( or may be they will soon do that).But one thing is very clear, it is not the siffers that blaming women for everything, but it is von-male feminists that blaming siffers for everything. thanq very much.

sorry for this multi posting at that here the network was so and actually it shown a message that the connection to the site take too long. so i refreshed several time, that is the reason for that.

Deepti...$16

You can't brush away what happens in USA because you guys will be fighting same battles soon. It is harbinger of things to come when you adopt same ideology, same culture, same tactics. Battle fronts may appear different but same strategies, same DNA, same crusade, same battle of sexes, same sexual politics and same results - nobody wins. Indian feminists would like to compartmentalize feminism so that what they do in one corner does not bite what they are trying to achieve in another corner - its strategy is built on evasion of accountability and victimization of men and women and getting empowered at their expense. For every problem it tries to solve, it creates 10 more and cycle of victimizations never ends. That is why it remains a stooge of leftist that specializes in getting empowered while enlarging the pool of victimzations - all in the name of social justice and redress of this or that victimization. There are solutions to every problem - but the worst thing that can happen to men and women and nation as a whole is to get seduced by feminist tease act - for it will deliver them lot more than what they bargained.

no kerty, no it is NOT the same thing. you are far too simplistic. not every culture functions in the same way. I love it though, that when anything goes wrong in India you will find a way to blame the US, but anything good will be attributed to Indians. Cannot have it both ways.

Anyway, in the US there is not a general feeling among men that if a woman goes out, is drinking, or wears anything other than a tent she is asking to be raped. Yes, we have some conservative factions, but we've managed to progress past the inability to have a dialog about sex in public without the kind of prohibitions you see here. the societies are very different, in some ways good and in some ways bad... but I am not sure a comparison is in order. just because you import some of the culture or trends does not mean the reaction will be equal.

I think you need a sociology 101 class.

Minor girl raped in Latur, body hung from tree
6 Jan 2008, 0000 hrs IST,S Balakrishnan,TNN

MUMBAI: If two girls were molested in public in Mumbai on New Year eve, in Latur, a 14-year-old girl was allegedly raped and murdered by four youth. Latur is the home district of Maharashtra Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh and the local MP is Union home minister Shivraj Patil.

One of the accused Vijaykumar Pathale is related to local NCP MLA Chandrashekar Bhosale.

Its the same old argument, these tragic incidents are blamed on "women being portrayed as objects of desire" by a highly westernized media. This is far from being the real reason. Rapes and molestation has always been prevalent in India. Victorious armies in medieval India would plunder and rape women. Violence against women was a major part of the rioting during India's partition, before the advent of television and raunchy videos.
It reflects the indian male's inability to control sexual emotions. The problem is more to do with sex being an insulated subject that is rarely discussed in living rooms or class rooms. Most men grow up and live in disturbed homes where women are expected to live on terms of their husband/father. Any sign of female independence is looked down upon and equated with promiscuity. As the author rightly pointed out, they are regarded as objects.
In Denmark, women reportedly sun bathe topless during the afternoon lunch break in the local parks. Rape is unheard off there even though their ancestors were the Vikings, a barbaric medieval tribe. It is all about 'civilization' and culture.

Ajay..

"It reflects the indian male's inability to control sexual emotions."

Given that, what would you propose. Give a ladder to the monkey or take it away from him? If men are not able to handle sexual emotions, you would want to direct male mind and male energies to positive directions that is constructive for society, no? Why saturate the public domain with overtly sexual messages and sexual images and than play 'gotcha' gender games?

"The problem is more to do with sex being an insulated subject that is rarely discussed in living rooms or class rooms."

So solution is all-pervading heightened sexual consciousness and bringing it all out from closet out in open? If sex is so freely available out in open, may be men will need feel less urge to molest or rape, right? Except that sex crimes have not gone away where such voodoo experiments have been done in west. People give example of Denmark but how come they are not duplicated else where in west? To blindly ape western prescriptions to complex problems sound too simplistic in dealing with complex socio-cultural realities found in other nations.

Whoa...Well, happy 2008 all.

There is one aspect that seems to have been left out in this discussion - as in the India gate case last year, this case too seems to have a socio-economic/cultural angle to it (hear me out please!)

In many Indian cities, there are various Indias that live side-by-side, generally not even crossing paths, but often colliding with disastrous results. One aspect of this is women of certain classes (generally upper middle class and middle class) going out at night with family and friends to pubs and bars. This is new social behaviour and not all parts of the society are comfortable/accustomed/approving of it. The biases about what "such" women do/are, tend to get worse in direct proportion to people's economic standing, educational backgrounds and cultural upbringing (yes, its unfashionable to say this).

Most of us who live this lifestyle and do this also know that our behaviour will have consequences on the street (as will what we wear). Most of us automatically hop into cars, get out at specific pubs/bars/clubs/parties, and then drive back home at the end of the night. A lot of Delhi clubs even have bouncers to escort women to their cars at the end of a night (interesting to see how the service culture constantly evolves in India!)

I remember that going to pubs/bars/farmhouse parties would horrify some of my extended family just ten or fifteen years ago. But they slowly got used to it and realised that it was not "immoral" or "western" but a normal way of socialising (hey, I know people who wouldn't allow a magazine like Cosmopolitan/Elle/Vogue in their homes because its "corrupting" their kids).

This "circuit" of those who could/would party has grown enormously in the past 15 years with economic growth and social change. So more women are going out each day which makes the behaviour more acceptable. But there is ALSO another side to society - the one that behaves like the mob did in Mumbai and Delhi. And there are enough people who are shocked by this "new" behaviour who then excuse/condone the mob's behaviour.

In an ideal world, it would not matter if one were wearing a short skirt. But in the real world it does.

Some of the reports suggest that the four people (two women and their husband/family/men) were NRIs. There is a good chance that they did not realise the fragile boundaries of the parallel worlds in Indian cities. The women would be safe in the hotel but the moment they hit the street, their clothing made them easy prey (note I AM NOT SAYING THEY ASKED FOR IT OR EXCUSING THE ATTACKERS).

The episode once again exposed the fragile truce between the upwardly mobile white collar section of urban India and the frustrated, poor, have-nots who used the opportunity for a show of power.

Its really sad but the possibility of such an incident is something that every woman I know living in India deals with every day of her life. Its about knowing the cultural codes and working them.

And its about recognising that the incident was a case of a clash of cultures - a primarily rural-feudal-barely literate one with the urban-modern-global one. And there was an assertion of power by "have-nots" against those they consider elite (sexual molestation/rape is ALWAYS about power). They are both parts of India - and we live that clash on a daily basis. And its up to us to make sure that we find a way to ensure that the tolerant/nonviolent/respectful side wins.

Anamika,

I do realize you are not blaming the victims and your analysis does make a lot of sociological sense.

# 2,

I am not surprised to discover that the 12 people who were identified as the attackers, out of which a couple belong to the SNIFFER gang. On this website time and again the SNIFFERS have suggested that it is indeed a woman who is responsible for any abuse or attack on her.

Both these women were with their husbands and still they faced this. One can imagine the state of single women then?

Seems like the frustrated lot of sniffers will not let any couple or any man or any woman to be happy and at peace.

Reader..

If the women were with their husbands, there could be more to it than what is being attributed as the nature of their altercations with the accused. The accused also have claimed to be with their families(elder brothers) and would be unlikely to misbehave to the extent alleged. Even close friends and family members of the accused have vouched that the accused are not that type of lads with no history of such behavior. Quite probable that the women may be using the serious accusations to settle scores with the accused.

anamika... I think that what you have said is what I was trying to get at in #27 when I lost it with lomi and simply could not go on.

It will be interesting to see what happens and how the socioeconomic strata of the perps breaks down.

it is interesting to compare this to jon anand who stands accused of some 30 rapes, with all indications that he probably did do them... with his family all standing around screaming that he is being framed. no one seems to understand that perpetrators like that don't just strike once... they are serial offenders.

Aaman nobody talks about female doctors and nurses who work nights in hospitals esp govt. hospitals where scum camouflaged as patients land up some times.Their security is almost nonexistent.They are fully dressed and no mood to party.

Dr Krishnan, its a very valid point and same goes for women who work in the hotel industry.

I get what Anamika says, back in Delhi during my single days we used to move around in large groups at nights and the only way we avoided mishaps was by avoiding certain places like India Gate, Connaught Place etc especially during the X'Mas, New Year time and we even made sure that in nightclubs we women didn't get separated from our male friends.

Maybe we should have gated towns but something tells me that would cause further sociological problems.

Kerty,

If the accused were with their big brothers, so? Then even the big brothers were involved. What BS scores are you talking about?

Reports of accidents, deaths, murders all bounce off me and I feel nothing, just numb. But some news articles somehow pierce through my armor plates

That almost certainly sums it up. A similar set of drunkard persons mercilessly beat two boys(in their earlier twenties) in a nearby locality when they objected to blaring, deafening music and noise. Forget about media coverage not even a FIR got registered as police managed to convince themselves that it was a brawl that needs no redressal.

Does anybody in this country know about it? If my neighbour thinks that it was no news, how would anybody else come to know of it. Indeed our(media and society) biased gender armor plates are permeable to only certain type of reports.

I can easily imagine what would have happened, had there been no women involved in this incident.

Dr Krishnan, agreed. Another shocking area is scientific research where women get harassed by their own superiors and colleauges (and even chaprasis) but have no recourse because the culprit is "middle-class", "respectable" and thus immune. Ironic, because most families believe that their daughter is "safe" in the lab.

Deepti - the solution is exactly the one we have been seeing for the past fifty or so years. MORE women in the streets and workplaces and NOT gated communities.

I grew up in a small north Indian town where my mother's generation was the first to go to the university. They took some abuse but that didn't stop them. Even the so called "respectable" people were horrified when they started working - initially in "respectable" jobs like teaching, but within a decade in "tougher" and "male" professions like journalism.

Same happened with mine - we went into research labs, hotel management and army. That was tough too. But we learned to cope - including some of us who carried hockey sticks and/or learned martial arts to defend ourselves. Pubs, bars, parties are another frontier - don't forget this is a very new phenomenon for most Indians. Eventually it will also become "normal."

Yes, there have been/will be "casualties" and each one is horrible and traumatic. But there is no reason to retreat into gated communities or to live in fear.

What I find most saddening but interesting btw in the Mumbai case is the intersection of race/class/gender. Had the women been white/black, they would have had some protection - not from groping/"eveteasing" (sic) but from the full out assault.

Had they NOT understood what was happening, they would not have responded angrily (something most foreigners do because they dont understand what is being said/done or write it off as "cultural" experience).

The fact they were desi made them more vulnerable - as per the mob, they were "supposed" to know the code (ie not walk into the street) and so their "transgression" became greater and the response more barbaric.

Reader #39

If the ladies were with their husbands as you claimed, then ladies were not alone. Surely, husbands must have tried something to defend their wives. They must have been roughed up too in order for assailants to proceed to victimize their wives. So it sounds like an attack on couples rather than taking advantage of 2 women. The newspapers(The Hindu) are reporting that there were as many as 70 men involved in 'Humiliation' of these 2 women. Now it sounds odd that 70 men some of whom were also with their families would gang up on 2 women who were also with their husbands(as you claimed) at a crowded public place on new year eve where 2 newspaper photographers, Assistant Commissioner of Police (Traffic) Amarjeet Singh, his police driver and a constable also claim to be present. It has all the trappings of a drunken party brawl. I would wait for more details to come out before jumping to conclusions.

Here is what media reported today:
PTI reports:

Sena spokesman Sanjay Raut on Saturday came out in defence of those arrested in connection with the incident saying "our belief is that no one would dare to commit such misdeed."

"Our belief is that no one would dare to commit such a misdeed in front of their near and dear ones and hence we feel the arrested boys might be innocent," Mr. Raut told reporters.

He said while the whole incident was condemnable, the parents and neighbours of the accused had informed the Sena that the arrested boys could not do such a thing.

Two or three of those arrested were with their elder brothers, Mr. Raut said.

Kerty

With due respect, the Shiv Sena cannot be considered an authoratative source on this issue. Secondly, does it surprise you that family members are supporting their arrested sons/husbands?

I donot think the author has dealt with the underlying issues. The underlying issues are far more structural - Male female ratio, male female interaction, eductaion levels, quality of law enforcement etc. Also, as it turns out people were finally picked up by the police. Somehow things in India work. The concern however is that it does not work and on a consistent basis and it is not at all systemic

Juhu episode is indeed a shameful incident. I agree women in India indeed need more protection from miscreants in society. So what do we do?

We need to have more police personal and more investigating agencies who can can conclusively and unambiguously unearth the truth of allegations against those persons and also trace true culprits (who may still be absconding). But sadly everything costs money. And we must get these money for women , from women by leaving more taxes on them. There is no point educating males about females, sex and stuff. We will always have elements who have different idea about women, just like we have somany women who have different idea about men. It is not that in a highly literate (educated?) country like US some men still look down upon women irrespective of their awareness, education e.t.c. Not only that, since the miscreants constitute less than 2% of society, it would not be wise and economical enough to spend huge resources and money on educating the entire 100% of males(assuming that 98% do not need that education in the first place).

Continued...

blame the schooling,these guys are not taught values and morals in their gurukuls,we need more catholic run institutions to stem this rot

Kela

9 of them were from catholic schools in mumbai

well ,they didn't pay attention during class or maybe they haven't seen a thong

well in some instances women are to be blamed,i remember going to goa on new years eve on a office trip,we went colva beach ,it was around 9 pm ,we spotted two girls on a scooter parked in a dark lonely spot busy guzzling beer.this got some of my drunk colleagues really excited/horny and they were hatching all kinds of plans but eventually nnothing happened

Were you a part of the plotters or were u busy plotting to a molest a guy? ;)

funny you should say that,infact before going to the beach we were at this open air concert and a few fags started hitting on me saying they liked my body and all,so you see even big guys (i'm like 6'1 200 lbs of muscle ;) can get molested in a crowd,you have be smart and make wise decisions

kela, you never cease to be a source of entertainment, delusional or not.

please stop using terms like "fag".. it's so offensive.

Apparently, from what few comments I read here, women will not be safe on Indian streets until they carry small Uzis and are willing to use them. About ten dozen dead men (including at least a dozen cops) who have attempted to assault or molest women might get a lot of guys thinking....

Ruvy, that or until the police are willing to more adopt a zero-tolerance policy. Even if a lady (or gentleman) is roaming naked on the street, nobody has the right to molest or do any physical harm to them. Until such a concept is protected by law (and you should always be also willing to punish people for breaking obscenity laws if they go over a defined limit - a legal limit, not what some people think), people will always be committing such crimes.
I would be happiest if these ladies knew some martial arts, and made the molestors pay directly for their actions. Such a lesson is well learnt. (For example, some time back, lady inspectors would stand in plain-clothes and if somebody suddenly came up and tried eve-teasing, that guy would probably not forget it for some time.

ashish... thank you for saying what you did:

Even if a lady (or gentleman) is roaming naked on the street, nobody has the right to molest or do any physical harm to them

you should be applauded. many men have not get that concept yet, and you should be thanked for grasping the fact that NO ONE has the right to hurt or molest anyone else. period. not based on looks, dress, time of day, you name it.

I will say that when I nearly broke a man's hand for grabbing my breast in bangalore once, people were shocked at my tenacity and refusal to let go and stop "punishing" this man. it was only the women who gave me knowing looks, the men kept saying "madame, madame please let him go, he is very sorry... can't you see?"

yeah, he was sorry he got caught. if i had not done what I did he would have been bragging for months about what he did.

Chandra..

There were over 70 people alleged to be involved in alleged 'humiliating' these 2 women - as per a report by The Hindu. That does not sound like couple of ruffians taking advantage of unaccompanied girls in some deserted spot where aam people could not reach out to victims to defend them or victims could not cry out to aam people for help. 70 people can be called a mob, not gang bangers or case of few ruffians.

Shiv Sena has more credibility on this issue than media and feminists. What do you expect Shiv Sena to do when they get flooded with urgent pleas of parents and relatives of wrongfully accused who see their honor violated and family reputation slandered in public - is that less victimizing than what 2 women went thru? Shiv sena is a democratically elected ruling party in Mumbai and it has to respond to both sides. If the accused are innocent, it has to respond and defend their honor too. It is media that lacks credibility when it fails to look at both sides.

The underlined issue in this episode is how mere allegations that fit into feminist claims instantly become public trial, media circus and feminist feeding frenzy - how biased media, feminist propaganda mills, feminist-tilted legal system run with it never bothering to wait or care for facts or outcome or honor of the innocents on other side in a zeal to make an issue out of it and force justice by hook or crook. If somebody defends the honor of wrongfully accused, it becomes one more proof of anti-women male dominated society. If legal system acquits the innocent, it becomes one more proof of corrupt judicial system where women get no justice. If Police do not act against innocent people, blah blah the same. As if facts surrounding the events do not matter. It is feminist victimology all the way no matter what may turn out to be the actual circumstances or outcome of the legal investigations and proceedings. You can count on this event by now to be humming on every feminist rag and blog, and will get cited for years to come as proof of feminist claims and its world-famous statistics.

I repeat my argument. It is a simple one. When women start to use guns to change the statistics in India, behavior will follow. Guys do not like getting killed, and from what I read here, women have little to lose if they start killing to keep their OWN honor. If they don't kill, they appear to be dead anyway.

It's cold, murderous logic. But it appears to be the only intelligent solution because less murderous solutions have not worked heretofore.

ruvy:

violence begets more violence

;)

Violent crime is worst kind of crime. Especially when attack comes as surprise and attackers are strangers. People who committed this crime are like hyenas. They came in mob of 70 men and attacked. No one can justify the act of these criminals, and no one should. Weather the crime is committed towards vulnerable victim it is shame full. This kind of attacks are not limited to women only, can happen to a man too. A white man attacked while walking through black neighborhood. And patel boy attacked while walking through BC neighborhood. These all are same kind of crimes. Attack on unsuspecting and vulnerable victim.
Now for solution: Police and other security forces should be present out side all big party places. This incident happened out side well published event by Bipasha Basu at JW Marriott. No government has enough police force to cover every corner. Thus local volunteers should provide security to smaller events. That would be excellent Rastriya Seva. Channel youth energy to constructive agendas.

#55
Ruvy in Jerusalem
why only women? men also need guns according to your theory. Because molestation is not only crime exist in the world, there are plenty. so give gun to everyone, let every one, kill another who commit crimes. since everybody have guns, we can watch a good cowboy movie in the streets.

Shiv Sena defends Mumbai molestation accused

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080037790&ch=1/5/2008%205:36:00%20PM

ruvy:

violence begets more violence

Explain this to the women who were molested, temporal. Go wag your finger of morality at them, and see what they have to say. You're wasting your time on me.

why only women? Because women suffer from molestation, and men generally don't - men are the molesters.

But, Ravi, you make a good point. If everybody sees that his neighbor is packing a pistol, he is less likely to lose his cool - and therefore less likely to lose his life...

i saw the movie munich wherein the protagonists (a group of hardcore jewish hitmen) go around killing arabs apparently in revenge but for every hit they made the arabs and palestnians responded with twice the ferocity.Eventually out of the group of 5 only 2 disillusioned jews remained

Juhu episode is indeed a shameful incident. I agree women in India indeed need more protection from miscreants in society. So what do we do?

We need to have more police personal and more investigating agencies who can can conclusively and unambiguously unearth the truth of allegations against those persons and also trace true culprits (who may still be absconding). But sadly everything costs money. And we must get these money for women , from women by leaving more taxes on them. There is no point educating males about females, sex and stuff. We will always have elements who have different idea about women, just like we have somany women who have different idea about men. It is not that in a highly literate (educated?) country like US some men still look down upon women irrespective of their awareness, education e.t.c. Not only that, since the miscreants constitute less than 2% of society, it would not be wise and economical enough to spend huge resources and money on educating the entire 100% of males(assuming that 98% do not need that education in the first place).

Continued...

Because women suffer from molestation, and men generally don't - men are the molesters.

Wrong...It is because ...

1) Women complain more
2) Women are heard more
3) Any altercation between man and woman(irrespective of who the offender is) is portrayed as molestation. When you look at molestation cases vs no of assault cases almost every assault case lodged by women has an element of molestation attached to it where is no case of assault on man is described in terms of molestation. Molestation as defined Indian law is a gender(female) phenomenon. So if molestation is not defined for men how can men get molested in first place.

The attack on man(verbal or physical) is portrayed as his inability(unmanliness) to handle women. Is not it strange that even while number of reported/unreported assaults on men are 10 times more than those on women there are hardly any complains which are defined in terms of pure assault(like what happens to man) on women.

Because women suffer from molestation, and men generally don't - men are the molesters.

Wrong, It is because...

1) Women complain more

2) Women are heard more

3) Any altercation between man and woman(irrespective of who the offender is) is portrayed as molestation. When you look at molestation cases vs no of assault cases almost every assault case lodged by women has an element of molestation attached to it where is no case of assault on man is described in terms of molestation. Molestation as defined Indian law is a gender(female) phenomenon. So if molestation is not defined for men how can men get molested in first place.

The attack on man(verbal or physical) is portrayed as his inability(unmanliness) to handle women. Is not it strange that even while number of reported/unreported assaults on men are 10 times more than those on women there are hardly any complains which are defined in terms of pure assault(like what happens to man) on women.

Because women suffer from molestation, and men generally don't - men are the molesters.

Wrong, It is because...

1) Women complain more

2) Women are heard more

3) Any altercation between man and woman(irrespective of who the offender is) is portrayed as molestation. When you look at molestation cases vs no of assault cases almost every assault case lodged by women has an element of molestation attached to it where is no case of assault on man is described in terms of molestation. Molestation as defined Indian law is a gender(female) phenomenon. So if molestation is not defined for men how can men get molested in first place.

The attack on man(verbal or physical) is portrayed as his inability(unmanliness) to handle women. Is not it strange that even while number of reported/unreported assaults on men are 10 times more than those on women there are hardly any complains which are defined in terms of pure assault(like what happens to man) on women.

Juhu episode is indeed a shameful incident. I agree women in India indeed need more protection from miscreants in society. So what do we do?

We need to have more police personal and more investigating agencies who can can conclusively and unambiguously unearth the truth of allegations against those persons and also trace true culprits (who may still be absconding).

But sadly everything costs money. And we must get these money for women , from women by leaving more taxes on them. There is no point educating males about females, sex and stuff. We will always have elements who have different idea about women, just like we have somany women who have different idea about men.

It is not that in a highly literate (educated?) country like US some men still look down upon women irrespective of their awareness, education e.t.c. Not only that, since the miscreants constitute less than 2% of society, it would not be wise and economical enough to spend huge resources and money on educating the entire 100% of males(assuming that 98% do not need that education in the first place).


Women are allegedly(and I am not sure) safe in US only and only because US has a strong police and investigating machinery which is obviously built upon the fact that US because of it power and its ability to hog on to huge proportion of world resources, has enough money to spend on such law and order issues.


So we should plan to tax more so that we can provide adequate protection to women. But it is not admissible and in fair in any way to provide protection to one segment of society and tax the other segment espc when they both constitute 50% each out society. Thus in conclusion, we should tax women more than men in order to provide additional protection to women.

Juhu episode is indeed a shameful incident. I agree women in India indeed need more protection from miscreants in society. So what do we do?

We need to have more police personal and more investigating agencies who can can conclusively and unambiguously unearth the truth of allegations against those persons and also trace true culprits (who may still be absconding).

But sadly everything costs money. And we must get these money for women , from women by leaving more taxes on them. There is no point educating males about females, sex and stuff. We will always have elements who have different idea about women, just like we have somany women who have different idea about men.

It is apparent that in a highly literate (educated?) country like US some men still look down upon women irrespective of their awareness, education e.t.c.

Not only that, since the miscreants constitute less than 2% of society, it would not be wise and economical enough to spend huge resources and money on educating the entire 100% of males(assuming that 98% do not need that education in the first place).


Women are allegedly(and I am not sure) safe in US only and only because US has a strong police and investigating machinery which is obviously built upon the fact that US because of it power and its ability to hog on to huge proportion of world resources, has enough money to spend on such law and order issues.


So we should plan to tax more so that we can provide adequate protection to women. But it is not admissible and in fair in any way to provide protection to one segment of society and tax the other segment espc when they both constitute 50% each out society. Thus in conclusion, we should tax women more than men in order to provide additional(exclusive) protection to women.

Juhu episode is indeed a shameful incident. I agree women in India indeed need more protection from miscreants in society. So what do we do?

We need to have more police personal and more investigating agencies who can can conclusively and unambiguously unearth the truth of allegations against those persons and also trace true culprits (who may still be absconding).

But sadly everything costs money. And we must get these money for women , from women by leaving more taxes on them. There is no point educating males about females, sex and stuff. We will always have elements who have different idea about women, just like we have somany women who have different idea about men.

It is apparent that in a highly literate (educated?) country like US some men still look down upon women irrespective of their awareness, education e.t.c.

Not only that, since the miscreants constitute less than 2% of society, it would not be wise and economical enough to spend huge resources and money on educating the entire 100% of males (assuming that 98% do not need that education in the first place).


Women are allegedly(And I am not sure) safe in US but only and only because US has a strong police and investigating machinery which is obviously built upon the fact that US because of it power and its ability to hog on to huge proportion of world resources, has enough money to spend on such law and order issues.


So we should plan to tax more so that we can provide adequate protection to women. But it is not admissible and in fair in any way to provide protection to one segment of society and tax the other segment espc when they both constitute 50% each out society. Thus in conclusion, we should tax women more than men in order to provide additional(exclusive) protection to women.

of course i am ruvy just as you are incorrigible:)

give the victims guns!

now, do the mexican jumping beans routine, when we extend this to the palestinians in the occupied territories

;)

Caveat Emptor

Smallsquirrel:

"Even if a lady (or gentleman) is roaming naked on the street, nobody has the right to molest or do any physical harm to them

you should be applauded. many men have not get that concept yet, and you should be thanked for grasping the fact that NO ONE has the right to hurt or molest anyone else. period. not based on looks, dress, time of day, you name it.

I will say that when I nearly broke a man's hand for grabbing my breast in bangalore once, people were shocked at my tenacity and refusal to let go and stop "punishing" this man. it was only the women who gave me knowing looks, the men kept saying "madame, madame please let him go, he is very sorry... can't you see?"

yeah, he was sorry he got caught. if i had not done what I did he would have been bragging for months about what he did."

On the mark SS. And good for you for teaching this guy a lesson. I am certain he will never attempt it again!

"Even if a lady (or gentleman) is roaming naked on the street, nobody has the right to molest or do any physical harm to them"

That is so very true...But no one can use above argument to rob ones right to lodge a police complaint when he/she sees such disturbances in any public place. There should be a provision for booking such persons who disturb the sanctity of a public place and such acts should be punishable under law.

Alas neither do we have strong and enough laws which can protect common public(espc men) from such displays of nudity(or semi nudity) a.k.a visual marketing nor do we have strong police to address such concerns. To add oil to fire we have brigade women organizations who want to shelve such public display of sexisms in the garb of women empowerment and women freedom.

This problem got highlighted only because it was caught on camera by people who work for a newspaper.

Thousands of such cases go unreported. Millions of women in India are subjected to eve-teasing, molestation, abuse, humiliation, on a daily basis.

Sandeep captures the mood very well:

Lets face it, we (Indians) are bunch of sex starved hypocrites, who think their wives,daughters and sisters are reincarnation of holy mother (or whatever goddess they believe in) and rest every other woman walking on this planet is a sex toy.

Is it society to be blamed or is it the parents who should be hold accountable??? how many parents teach their daughter to fight back? how many parents treat their son and daughter respectably equal?? How many fathers teach their son to fight for dignity of a woman...any woman.?

I guess its again a case of bad parenting - which seems to the most common trait of Indian culture (the present).

#67, FF:

We need to have more police personal and more investigating agencies who can can conclusively and unambiguously unearth the truth of allegations against those persons and also trace true culprits (who may still be absconding).

So, how many policemen do you need? And what do you do when the policemen (who are also men) join the miscreants to tease and molest the women? We bring in military? Then what do we when military starts raping the women?

I am not sure if bringing more policemen or investigating agencies is going to solve the problem.

Just look at so men actually blaming the women. They even come on TV to talk about it.

I believe it has to do with how we raise our kids.

If parents are not doing their job, then schools should. The kids should be taught about sex, and then about how to treat a woman as an equal, and not as a sex toy.

Shiv Sena's take on molestation

Newspaper photographs of the mob molestation caused national outrage but the Shiv Sena seems to have a different take on the men whose pictures have been aired several times since the incident.

A front-page article in the party mouthpiece Samna defends the men suspected to have molested the two women in a mob and says they were actually trying to save the women not harass them.

The Sena article goes on to accuse outsiders of spoiling Mumbai's image and says the real molesters managed to get away.

The article goes on to criticise the persecution of the men, calling it marathi versus non-marathi clash.

''The parents and the neighbours of the men who have been caught are of the opinion that these men could have never done something like this. Also if you look at their second names you would realize some of them are brothers. Brothers wouldn't behave this way in front of each other,'' said Sanjay Raut, Editor, Samna

#54:

Shiv Sena has more credibility on this issue than media and feminists.

And Kerty has better credibility than Shiv Sena!
;-)

#53: SS,

Even if a lady (or gentleman) is roaming naked on the street, nobody has the right to molest or do any physical harm to them

Right on.

We have heard too many times from men who keep blaming women for inciting them into doing all kinds of funny things (which women don't find funny).

#41,

So it sounds like an attack on couples rather than taking advantage of 2 women.

So, you are basically saying that the men were sexually molested too. But I thought there were no gays in Shiv Sena ruled states! (or was it in Iran?)

#31, Anamika:

Good one. I agree with you on many counts on this. (yeah, I was not generous enough to say I agree on all counts).

sujai...actually I was just echoing what ashish had said and thanking him for his comments! :)

[Edited]

Please restrict yourself to one nick only or you will be banned for not following the guidelines

that was a network cum user error on my part...

by the way, it looks like either the DC server is hugely overloaded or it can not accpet large packets/posts(software error) many a times. I am observing quite of few of posts getting lost and a blank page appearing at the end of almost every submit. It becomes very confusing sometimes.

Sujai..

"Thousands of such cases go unreported. Millions of women in India are subjected to eve-teasing, molestation, abuse, humiliation, on a daily basis."

Why not billions of women? On a daily basis means, 365 billions of such cases just in one year. This is perfect example of 'world famous statistics' where no burden of proof is required and one can make any kind of statistical claim with impunity. If they allege that millions of rapes take place in India, you have to accept it as Gospel truth because no burden of proof is required because most cases never get reported.

Feminism has trappings of all other leftist crusades for equality which makes them perpetual and never-ending - because equality can never be achieved except at lowest common denominators. No two species can be alike or equal, no two men are alike or equal, no two women are alike or equal - one really has to suppress both to make them equal - it is an artificial and un-natural construct. That is why it can never be achieved in biological, social or economic spheres. Crusades for equality merely become an excuse and justification for both 'forward and reverse' victimizations and oppressions. It becomes an ideological tool to divide and neutralize both men and women and all the institutions that are dependent on harmony and unity of men and women. Just as equality quest among castes and upper caste vs lower caste divide is not meant to empower any particular caste or group of castes but to dis-empower and dis-enfranchise caste system as a whole and all the support systems built around harmony and unity among castes. As that harmony and support systems get disenfranchised, it brings about more chaos and victimizations among castes, and thus creating a self-fulfilling prophesy that empowers the whole crusade for equality without achieving any equality. It is all about empowering an ideology rather than people who are used in such activism.

It is ironic that you mention role of family and parents in bringing about attitude change in youth and kids. Families have been successful in inculcating respect and love for family members, friends, relatives and neighbors - it is just that with atomization of communities and families, that circle of love and respect has only grown smaller - it too has gotten atomized.

In my small town, it was considered a taboo for any local guys to marry or flirt within whole town with any local girl of the town, as all women of the town were thought of as sisters and Bhabhis. That was the code of ethics and morality in all the town I knew. Town youth(I too used to join them on occasions)used to beat up guys who dared to cast 'Boori Nazar' on girls of our town. So local boys and girls tried to let out their libido on youth of other villages - but since other villages too followed similar code, nobody could dare cross limits and sexual crimes remained rarity. But that was back in 60's and 70's. Now such code of ethics and morality is no longer there in my town or any other town where youth are exposed. I have seen youth flirting and having affairs even among neighbors and within their own towns. The culture of eve-teasing is now very much part of town's youth culture. Boys hang out by road side and mohollas to ogle at passerby local girls, and pass comments whenever their favorite lady passes by. Nobody would dare beat them up as they are more organized and more likely to beat up those who oppose them and media too would join them in condemning those who oppose such youth as moral police.

You mention schools where attitude change can be taught. That is where youth practice and perfect these attitudes. School and college campuses have become the biggest hot spots for eve teasing and molestations. That is where youth shed their image of demure family girl and respectful family boy and let it all out on each other. What youth learn outside the classroom in those campuses that defines youth culture. This is where they acquire their split personality - respectful at hone and wolfish outside home.

Media plays the dominant and decisive role in shaping youth culture. The images and messages it saturates the public domain shape youth attitude and morality. Couple of generations back, youth got married and domesticated by age 18, and parents took care of arranging that. Now onus of finding a suitable love-mate rests on youth and they are constantly on the look out. Media has glamorized and saturated youth with boy-meets-girl and love at first sight scenarios. Any time girl is found by herself, boys would seize it as an opportunity to strike a love connection with her. Winning each other's nod for love connection becomes youth's mission and daily pursuit in life. That is the mother of culture of eve teasing. There exists no structure or space or institutions that can provide controlled environment where boys and girls can mingle and strike mutual love connections - internet remains even greater source of abuses, so less said the better. Parties, discos, bars, hotels bring out youth in droves and their sheer concentration in numbers and energy trying to make something happen can bring out the worst too in youth as this particular episode epitomizes. So what do you do? Sure you can You can beat up the miscreants and fill jails with overzealous and misguided youth, but that won't make the problems or root causes of youth culture go away. You can not have popular media promote certain youth culture and not have consequences . Media can not promote moral and sexual anarchy as freedom of expression and individual freedom and not expect people to actually follow it in all its possible combinations and permutations. More than kids, it is people in media that need lessons in how to project women, love, respect. Media is not held accountable for what it transmits to youth in media. As I stated in a thread about Indian media, root of all malfunctions and dysfunctions found in India can be traced to Indian media. It needs serious education.

#82:

Why not billions of women?

OK. If you want billions, then take billions ;-)
And btw, what is your ID in SIFF? or do you already have a title there?

Sorry. But couldn't read the rest of your message...

So, how many policemen do you need? And what do you do when the policemen (who are also men) join the miscreants to tease and molest the women? We bring in military? Then what do we when military starts raping the women?

I do not know. As many additional resources as women(who want to drink and roam without fear at 12 in the night) may think should be enough to provide them sense of security, because all along I have strongly insisted that those women be made to bear burden(through additional tax) of those additional security gaurds which will employed to investigate and safegaurd female dignity issues.

As for police taking advantage of their power to exploit people, then I would say you are grossly mistaken, because men in India(and probably workdwide) suffer may be 100 times more than women at the hands of police. I do not think i need to dig out statistics to prove that 100 times more men get beaten
(often brutally) by police than number of women being molested by them.

Finally, If you want to talk about Police reforms then you need a different platform to discuss it without associating gender dimensions to it.

Objectification of women has less to do with education or developed state of a country. But their protection has a lot to do with law and order of the state.

It is not that there are any less males in US who think women as sex toys. The only reason women feel free to roam about in the fashion they prefer is because in those developed countries like US they have a strong, vigilant and efficient police force and investigating agencies.

Sujai #77

The 2 women were with their husbands as per post #39 by Reader. That would mean 2 couples were attacked by mob of 70 men and motives are still unknown. Feminists see molestation of 2 women in this episode, and you see it as attack on gays in Shiv Sena state. Last I heard, Mumbai is not a state and Maharastra is not ruled by Shiv Sena. And yes, gays and lesbians and prostitutes do exist in Mumbai. In fact, prostitutes constitute sizable women population in Mumbai and growing, thanks to feminists. Whole neighborhoods are populated by them in Shiv Sena's Mumbai.

Those who seek equality of genders have to face the reality that men will brawl with women just the same way as men brawl with other men - there is possibility of physical contact and bodily struggle in any brawl. Persons will always grab and pull weak at body spots of their opponents in any brawl. Just because a woman is involved in a brawl, should not necessiate or be judged by different set of rules in a brawl. Classifying it as molestation or sex crime amounts to special treatment just because a woman is involved in it. If you accept that women need to be specially protected in society and must have special treatment compared to men, than you also have to accept that inequality among sexes is desirable and inevitable. Anything else can be deemed hypocratic and much worse, supremacist.

#84:

I do not know. As many additional resources as women(who want to drink and roam without fear at 12 in the night) may think should be enough to provide them sense of security, because all along I have strongly insisted that those women be made to bear burden(through additional tax) of those additional security gaurds which will employed to investigate and safegaurd female dignity issues.

So is this concern of yours limited to women 'who want to drink and roam without fear at 12 in the night) or even those women in towns, villages of India who are molested, teased, abused and raped? Do you plan to protect only 'your kind' of women? Or does this police force will be installed in every village and town, every nook and corner? What do we do with the present force who turn a blind eye to such molestations and who take advantage of those women who go to police station to report those molestations? Do we keep another police force to catch this police force?

;-)

As for police taking advantage of their power to exploit people, then I would say you are grossly mistaken, because men in India(and probably workdwide) suffer may be 100 times more than women at the hands of police.

Did I say that men are less exploited than women? ;-)

Does the 'fact' that men in India suffer more than women at the hands of police prove that these police would somehow be benevolent to women?

I didn't get it. What does your statement prove?

Finally, If you want to talk about Police reforms then you need a different platform to discuss it without associating gender dimensions to it.

May be. But if you want to think realistically about issues regarding humans on this planet, then I guess this is the forum. ;-)

It is not that there are any less males in US who think women as sex toys. The only reason women feel free to roam about in the fashion they prefer is because in those developed countries like US they have a strong, vigilant and efficient police force and investigating agencies.

So, 'in those developed countries like US' if a great majority starts to molest (instead of a small minority), including the police, would that 'vigilant and efficient police force' somehow curb that molestation of police too?

It's really easy to talk. Some people talk of putting police force everywhere to curb school shootings and gun crimes (yet they continue to happen) in spite of the police force (I guess they were looking after women sunbathing). Some people talk of putting police force everywhere to curb sale of drugs (yet they continue to happen) in spite of the police force (I guess they were walking next to the girls going to dance clubs at 12 in the night).

Why don't you look at the statistics on rapes in US? Why do they continue to happen in spite of the police force and such efficient investigating agencies?

[You don't have to answer these questions. This is only to understand why certain things happen in spite of our good talk. That's because we missed out on what is called 'ground reality'].

[Somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. More at http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm]

The kids should be taught about sex, and then about how to treat a woman as an equal, and not as a sex toy.

I think that was an interesting comment. I am not sure which kids are you talking about? Howvere, I would like to apprise you that many of the kids who have grown on this forum(and of many of whom are feminist cheer-leaders) have shown no hesitation in accpeting and asserting their rights to roam naked on streets provided they are not picked(unless given permissions). They have used the rationale of sexual expression/freedom in public domain to justify their sexual advances.

If those people have no issues with they being sexual toys(with "touch me not" labels), I am not sure which kind of moral policing are you advocating when you say that men should not perceive(i.e think) women(they do not know) as sexual toys.

I guess what should have been said(from a feminist's mouth) is as follows...


The kids should be taught about sex, and then about how to treat men and woman as equal sex toys.


My point however is that those human cum toys in public domain are indeed objectionable to many like me as they result into sexual exploitation, degradation and manipulation of males in general. There are many who feel repugnant at such a public display of toys for different reasons.

Under the universally agreed liberal democratic protocol they cerainly can not fiddle with those toys. However, they certainly can raise their voice and demand for the toys to be removed from public display into their respective private domains.

#85:

Aha, sophistry again. I seem to believe that this is biggest art Indians have amassed in the last hundred years (or may be throughout our history).

If you accept that women need to be specially protected in society and must have special treatment compared to men, than you also have to accept that inequality among sexes is desirable and inevitable. Anything else can be deemed hypocratic and much worse, supremacist.

Yes, I accept that women need to be specially protected in a society. As a group, women are subjected to more humiliation, more sexual abuse and more molestation and more teasing and more sexual assault than men. As groups they not equal women are not equal to men.

As individuals, we are equal. That means we are equal in the eyes of the law, justice, access to opportunity, access to education, access to government. That means, for example, the institutions of law will treat equal a farmer and a billionaire, man or a woman.

However, as groups, we are not equal. A black person will represent a group that is underrepresented and hence will be given 'special' privilege to enter employment. A sports player will represent a group that needs to get promoted and hence will be given 'special' privilege to enter a university. A woman will represent a group that is underrepresented and hence will be given a chair in the Supreme Court.

;-)

Anything else can be deemed hypocratic and much worse, supremacist.

Aha! Another gem here.

So, if you agree with me then you are a great man, otherwise, you are deemed hypocrite, narcissist, bigoted, fanatic, racist, supremacist, evil, and all other bad things that I can conjure up in my limited time?

[You have to do better than that to engage someone in a debate. You would have to abandon those tricks you learnt as a young boy while debating in school and college and grow up join the ranks of men]

pardon FF your von-siffer slip is visible here:

My point however is that those human cum toys in public domain are indeed objectionable to many like me as they result into sexual exploitation, degradation and manipulation of males in general. There are many who feel repugnant at such a public display of toys for different reasons.

;)

#87:
I am not sure which kids are you talking about?

I am talking about those kids who grow up to molest women, put their hands on the breasts of women, squeeze them to brag to their on their laurels and achievements.

Howvere, I would like to apprise you that many of the kids who have grown on this forum(and of many of whom are feminist cheer-leaders) have shown no hesitation in accpeting and asserting their rights to roam naked on streets provided they are not picked(unless given permissions).

Thank you for apprising me the situation at hand. I thought this world was far bigger than this forum. Sorry, did we change planets already or are we still on earth?

If everyone on this forum is OK with people roaming naked, and if this forum comprises the entire planet, how come we still have molesters and rapists out there? Am I missing something?

If those people have no issues with they being sexual toys(with "touch me not" labels), I am not sure which kind of moral policing are you advocating when you say that men should not perceive(i.e think) women(they do not know) as sexual toys.

I advocate no moral policing!

If a woman wants to be treated as a sexual toy, the guy can treat her as a sexual toy. If the woman says NO, then the guy better take it as a NO, instead of telling himself, 'Ah, she is saying NO, but she means yes!'

As far running naked is concerned, it's up to each society what they want to do. If they want to see naked women, then let there be naked women. If they want to see women in burqa, then let there be women in burqa. I am not talking about dress code.

I am talking about going to a women, either naked or in burqa, and then pinching her buttocks against her wishes, and then taking her into a corner to have sex with her against her wishes.

I am not talking about dress code here. I am talking about doing something to someone physically against their wishes.

#90...

My point was that toys are made available under the guise of women choice/freedom. Yes you are absolutely right that toys can not be touched whatsoever. However what I was saying that there will always be curious people in society(whom we call them miscreants) who may want to fiddle with those toys.

It certainly is illegal but then to ensure that it indeed remains illegal you have to have strong law and order. Now if these human toys need protection from those miscreants. I can either

1) ask them to stay away from miscreants by means best available to them(e.g by asking them not to be toys in the first place).

2) OR shell out more tax money to get additional security from the miscreants. More often than not these miscreants affect me and my family life too. However I and my family like to play safe(like most other ordinary humans), fully aware that we have limited resources to tackle these miscreants. Me and my family understands this but many of these toys and their manufactures want to take these miscreants head on, using my share of tax money as an available resource.

3) OR ask those toys to shell out money from their own pocket.

I can not do 1) because then I am in danger of stampeding on women freedom and women rights and am likely to be associated with one of those miscreants by the same set of toys.

I do not want to do 2) because I see no benefit in having toys made available publically espc when I do not like their pulic display in the first place. Also a lot of times i am more seriously but indirectly affected by activities of such toys, Because any clashes between these toys and miscreants time and again results into some extremely biased laws which may or may not affect my personal life. These toys see in only one kind of spectrum known as gender spectrum. So they derive some kind of brute pleasure in castigating on male gender.

So I certainly am advocating #3 as my preferred solution.

FF

Laws can deal with symptoms and not root causes. If law and order can solve the abuses arising out of every gender interaction and in every situation and in every corner, we would have no sexual crimes in USA as its laws and law enforcement is the most advanced and proactive. What law enforcement actually would end up doing is to push the abuses from public places to other domains - within families, within relationships, within homes and private spaces. Most rapes in USA now occur as Date Rapes and most molestations now stem form people women already know. What people can not do else where due to threat of laws, they try to get away by doing with someone they know, with someone who lives with them, which someone who is not likely to complain to law enforcement agencies. In India, these crimes get to spread out and take place out in open, with strangers, outside families, outside relationships because they have not been driven out from public domain by aggressive laws. Also when less serious altercations are banished by laws, they manifest with increased intensity and seriousness - nature of sexual crimes escalates. There is no more eve teasing in USA, but seriousness of some of the sex crimes would make even rape sound like petty crime in comparison. Unlike India, people USA do not resolve their conflicts with punches and sticks, they fire machine guns. With all that guns violence, one would wish why not fight it out with punches so minor conflicts do not end up killing people. Like conflict resolutions, sexual urges need safe outlet, when one is missing, they can menifest as serious crimes. When public domian is saturated with sexual and romantic imaginary and titillations, it heightens the sexual energies and fantasies of certain segment of youth that have no where to go in a sexually conservative society and relationships. Given the opportunity and circumstances, it would manifest in unhealthy ways. You can put the band-aid of law enforcement but it can not reach every hot spot to protect the victims. We can pontificate and blame men, society, culture, law enforcement, patriarchy, parents, kids and women all day here, and pass all kinds of laws. But it only diverts the attention from main problems.

FF-
India continues to amaze me. Yesterday I talked about police people colluding with molesters and NOT protecting the women, and here they make news item the next day.

Cops harass couple sitting in park

ANGALORE: Has moral policing reached Bangalore or was it a case of excessive harassment of law-abiding citizens?

A young, married couple, who chose to spend a relaxed Sunday evening at Bugle Rock Park, Basavanagudi, had a horrifying time after two policemen hurled filthy abuses at them, roughed them up, threatened them and took them to a police station.

Even more shocking about the intimidation was that Nisha and Vikram (names changed) were merely enjoying the evening breeze on a bench. The couple has been married for four years now.

In fact, they were chatting on their respective mobiles around 6.45 pm, when a plainclothes constable approached them and questioned them rudely. Asked if they'd done something wrong and whether he could prove his identity, the constable jeered at them: "Oh, you want to see my ID, I will show you now." Then he pulled Vikram by his collar and roughed him up.

Later, a cop in uniform emerged and threatened to kill Vikram. His wife Nisha, a journalist with a national daily, said she would call higher police authorities for help. But they abused her too. When Vikram protested that they couldn't treat her so rudely, the policemen said derisively: "Want to know how we treat you? Come to the station and you'll know."

The couple was taken to the Basavanagudi police station in a jeep. When the matter was brought to the notice of the higher-ups, the station in-charge apologized and sent the couple away. However, when the issue was being sorted out by the inspector, the policemen slunk away.

They were later identified as Constable Bala Naik and PSI Sharanaiah Gowda attached to the Basavangudi police station.

Link:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Bangalore_cops_harass_couple/articleshow/2681896.cms

FF-
You are taking this 'sex toy' argument too far. I am not sure why keep referring to certain people as sex toys. I guess you are trying to make a point- but that is turning out to be ugly.

Are we going to define now what constitutes enticement and what doesn't? Does showing hands constitute enticement? Does showing neck constitute enticement? Will someone treat a woman as 'sex toy' if they show their face?

Shall we put all our women in burqa?

FF, where is your concern for women who take a stroll on the beach with their husbands, where is your concern for women who are working in the field throughout the day?
Where is the concern for ordinary people going to their work?

There are men who target such women.

espc when I do not like their pulic display in the first place.

So, what do you mean by 'sex toys' and what do you not like about them when displayed publicly?

Also a lot of times i am more seriously but indirectly affected by activities of such toys,

;-)

Because any clashes between these toys and miscreants time and again results into some extremely biased laws which may or may not affect my personal life.

So, in effect you have made a huge assumption that only certain 'sex toys' get molested! What? In your definition all women who get molested are 'sex toys'?

[Do you sit on the board of Taliban?]

Australia car festival mob prompts security revamp
Mon Jan 7, 2008 10:51 AM GMT

CANBERRA (Reuters) - Organisers of Australia's biggest hot-rod car festival on Monday pledged to review security after a drunken mob of hundreds of men surrounded women and demanded they flash their breasts during an angry rampage.
The mob, estimated at up to 400 strong, marched through streets at the Summernats street car festival on Saturday in the capital Canberra after authorities attempted to crack down on unruly behaviour at what had been billed as a "family event".
"Anybody that brought their family in here would have to be dysfunctional," one security guard told local papers after the mob circled any women it passed, shouting "get your tits out" as outnumbered authorities watched, powerless to intervene.

Its amusing to see how the local mumbaites are trying to put the blame on so called "outsiders" when 11 out of the 14 arrested turned out to be Marathis.
Similar thing was witnessed in Guwahati during the violence against migrant tribals.The local assamese people then tried to put the blame on the "outsders" but it so turned out that it was the assamese people themselves that were the culprits

Chandra @ 96,

In a land where the beer can and the liquor bottle is worshiped is is Jesus, one can expect nothing less than what occurred in Canberra. There should be no surprise at this article at all.

Ruvy why is it that all the sons of moses indulge themselves in all kiinds of illicit actvities in india,right from growing hemp to dealing in acid and maybe even prostitution

....why is it that all the sons of moses....

Kela, why don't you educate us? You seem like a smart fellow. I don't live in India - I'm a writer from Samaria. I wouldn't know of all the criminal activities that transpire in your country. I have enough trouble keeping up with the crooks and robber barons in my own country.

So, tell us all about the evils of the "sons of Moses" for us. By there way, there is a Buddhist text that refers to the evil people and the enemies in the world as "sons of Moses". I don't have the link handy - sorry. Interesting that the very religion followed by the "god-king" of Tibet has this reference..... I wonder if that is where your handy-dandy little dalit magazine picked it up? Did your magazine mention the god-king's ties with Nazis, too?

dalit magazne? i'm no dalit [edited] and i dont care much abt the buddishts either.Lots of tibetan buddhists refugees where i live and the only thing the seem to want to do and are also good at is gambling and bootlegging
abt the drug peddling israelis ,havent i talked enough abt this before? they rule the hills by the himalayas,apparently that wasnt enough for them and now they're into synthetic drugs besdes pedlling their shitty trance music.you'll find them in all the drug havens,goa,manali ,mumbai...and you know what they say to indians when they're caught ? israel-india..brothers....real enemy ...the pakis/muslims...you have kashmir prob ..ours wth palestne... and hope to get off the hook

OK Kela,

You call yourself what you want to but I went to some of the bigoted shit you get YOUR information from and saw a pack of Jew-haters quoted and writing there.

I'll reserve my own judgment as to whether you are a moron or a mere idiot trying to masquerade as a moron. Just remember that I'm a straight shooter. In this instance, it does not mean that I'm gunning for you (tempted though I might be), it means that I call it as I see it and I don't give a damn what YOU OR ANYONE ELSE THINKS, EITHER.

u know what ? i have a yahoo chat id called straightshooter,and the stuff abt junkie israelis is published and featured in mainstream national magaznes and news channels.

Lekhni,

This gets my goat bigtime. Some years ago, a policeman had raped a 16 yr old girl who was walking on Marine Drive with her friends. Almost on cue, Pramod Navalkar gave Mid Day the soundbytes, "In my time a girl from Chembur wouldn't venture alone to Chowpatty"
Yeah, right.

aisaa hai to kyoN rakkheN aaKhir jeboN meN paise bhii?
jebeN to kaT jaanii haiN is shah'r kii bhiiR meN waise bhii

Why fill our pockets if they are to be picked, no?

Such incidents make me ashamed of being a former Mumbaikar, and I hear one of the stupid sena has come out in support of the accused claiming vendeta against Marathi people, please... spare Mumbai and walk into the sunset... in the sea!