Desicritics Comments on Gujarat - Punish the Guilty

Comment by Kerty

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:18:40 EST

Mike..(#42) That is purely hypothetical and speculative at this point. But should that scenerio happen, his distractors will not remain few isolated voices in the wilderness as they will be joined by many other powerful voices that will not let up until he is suitably punished - and he will pay big political price for sure - end of his illustrious political career and ambitions, major blemish and temporary setback for hindutva and BJP, honorable mention in every anti-bjp anti-hindu propaganda, empowerment of pseudo secular politics etc. On the other hand, his indictment will shift the focus back to context within which such crimes happened and bring back the focus on confrontational communal issues that can justify what Modi did. If somebody commits a murder, it adds a whole different dimension if you add a context that it was done in pure self-defense or done in the process of being raped. Modi's indictment will gain similar contexts, politics will get more aggressively communalised and polarised, there could be many more riots and many more would die. The issue will get further complicated after Modi wins this election - any attempt to remove him from office will be seen as just that - an attempt to thwart the democratic mandate of people and it will generate backlash from people, plus as a sitting CM, Modi will have lot more clout to set the agenda in his favor. In a nutshell, it will rock the politics of Gujarat, for far worse. One may personally desire to treat Modi's hypothetical involvement and punishment as merely law and order, crime and punishment and justice issue but it will not be entirely up to one side to define it and limit it when political stakes become so high on both side of the fence. Justice is not always about punishing, it is about correction, it is about making sure it does not happen again. Its not justice if it traps one in a cycle of same crime. Last 5 riot-free years have shown that correction is taking place in Gujarat. A poll published just few days ago showed 72% of Gujaratis want to forget 2002 riots and move on.

Comment by Chandra

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:07:17 EST

Mike That is not a response to my specific question. Well, it appears that a few individuals do claim that Narendra Modi was involved in the massacres. So why dont you file an FIR on that basis? I am sure if you stand up, others will follow you.

Comment by Mike Ghouse

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:35:39 EST

What if there is serious investigation and Mr. Modi admitts that he was involved in the Mayhem? We need to outgrow our bondage to individuals, when it comes to justice, no matter who it is, justice must be served. Without justice the life transaction remains incomplete and morally weak. We need to stand up and demand justice.

Comment by Chandra

Fri, 16 Nov 2007 09:02:22 EST

Can Somebody explain this to me a. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1843591.stm GODHRA ATTACK- FEB 27TH, 2002 b. http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020302/main1.htm ARMY FLAG MARCH - MARCH 1ST 2002 THAT IS A GAP OF 36 HOURS So why do people blame Modi for not doing anything? rgds

Comment by Gope Lalwani

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:35:15 EST

GURARAT KA SACH..... ( MUST READ) by B. P. SINGHAL, IPS. (Retd.), Ex-MP Rajya Sabha. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/India-Force/message/13033 "THE SECULARISTS" ARE AT IT ONCE AGAIN. It was state sponsored 'TERRORISM'. It was a well planned 'GENOCIDE' It was 'POGROM'.

Comment by Chandra

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:46:09 EST

I think that a large number of charge sheets have been filed and hopefully convictions will be obtained as well. Secondly, you make an impractical suggestion of dismissing a Govt. The Govt should have been dismissed many years ago when the event had happened. I dont know how old you are but I hope you do recall the tamasha of dismissing state Governments for various reasons (during the 80s). It is not a practical suggestion. I really dont think religious discord is our number one problem. A new World Bank report is expected to revise India's poverty levels from 350 million to 800 million. That I think is the number one problem. Instead of us worrying about Mr. Narendra Modi, let us figure out ways to ensure that such an event never happens again. rgds

Comment by Kerty

Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:12:05 EST

Mike... 1) Army started combing operations on 1st March. The Hindu newspaper reported that the counter-riots launched by Moslems on 1st March were so intense and wide-spread that it compounded army's job. Why would you blame Modi or government for Army and police's inability to cope with scope and spread of riots? Army does not operate under Modi's command. If Modi wanted to give free hand to rioters, why would he call army in the first place? Why would he give shoot at sight orders to police? 2) You rely on so-called Tehlka confessions to establish that Modi gave '3 days' to rioters. What makes you think they are confessions? Their uncanny verbatim resemblance to accusations that have already been circulating in the propaganda circles suggests they are merely parroting the accusations that are in the public domain and stating them as facts. If Modi really told them to riot for 3 days, than Modi's actions suggests he actually lied to them and did not keep his word. These confessions will not stand even rudimentary cross-examination in any court. One can get any number of people to say anything against Sonia or Manmohan Singh but that would not establish any facts. There are many motivated elements willing to say anything to spite Modi, and yes, some of them are in inside BJP and VHP too. There is an active anti-modi dissident faction within BJP and VHP and they don't mind working to bolster congress accusations or slandering Modi to spite Modi. You will need lot more than Tehlka scripted cut and paste confessions to establish facts. I have said many things here, why not take it as confession as well? If Tehlka is non-partisan, it should do a similar sting on FIRs and expose how much money they were paid by congress party cadre to file false FIRs and who paid them money? 3) Police or army can not cope with riots during initial breakout and it takes some time to bring them under control but lots of damage is already done by than. That scenario is no different in any riots. Only here, motivated elements driven by anti-Modi agenda have sought to politicize and propagandize it. 4) You claim it was genocide because intent was to finish off and clean out ethnic community. Than why would Modi call army to stop that? Why would his police kill Hindus? Clearly his intent and his actions are diametrically opposite. Look at the results as well - that ethnic community remains in full strength, growing and thriving, doing lot better than anywhere else outside Gujarat. You can't call something a genocide on mere 'intent', it has to have actually occured otherwise it cheapens and devalues actual genocides that have taken place. During riots, members of both communities ended up in refugee camps and many of them would not like to return back to their hostile neighborhoods that made them fled - you can not blame only one community for high level of distrust and suspicion that exists among hindus and moslems. Islamists and secularists bear major blame why both communities are not reconciled to live in peace - their efforts to exploit tragedies of riots for pushing their political and anti-hindu agenda stand in the way of healing any wounds. 5) People in thousands were arrested by government following the riots and FIRs. It is very typical that politicians cutting across party lines would step in to bail some of them out. It happens in all riots. When there is mob event, one can not separate onlookers, bystanders, provocatures and cheerleaders from perpetrators and in combing operations, it is hard to nail only perpetrators. Some are hauled up for merely trapassing in the the curfew. Lots of false arrests are usually made. Families and friends usually pull all kinds of levers to get their family members out. Because it happens in all riots, I would not be surprised if people in Modi's administration get some people off the hook from jail, and some of them could be hardcore rioters. This is one area where some people in administration could be an accomplice, looking the other ways at their alleged crimes in riots, in getting the FIRs dropped or bailing the people out. I am not suggesting that it did happen, but knowing how post-riot scenarios usually works, it would be entirely in the realm of possibility. On the other hand, this riot has been so much under constant minute scrutiny and media glare, it would be highly improbably that really guilty could have gotten away. Even if it can be established that some rioters were indeed let off the hook by influencial people in the administration, being an accomplice of a rioter after the riots is not the same as being accomplice during riots. One fact would not establish the other. If you do not have all the answers as you say, than right thing to do is to refrain from jumping to conclusions and wait for the answers. What is the point of premature inflamatory rhetorics? In a rush to score political points and not waiting for facts to come out, one can easily fall prey to lies, half-truths and propaganda. Tehlka did the same and now people like you are quoting Tehlka and creating a virtual realty that is disconnected from facts that are known so far.

Comment by temporal

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:40:47 EST

sanjay: write about nandigram and it will be published here this is about gujrat, if you can read ;)

Comment by Sanjay

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:40:35 EST

Buddhadeb says, "we paid Opposition back in same coin" That's a quote from the man directly. He's not apologetic about anything. He's quite gleeful about what he's done.

Comment by Sanjay

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:39:24 EST

Modi doesn't defend the Gujarat Riots, but let's hear what our beloved Communist leader Buddhadeb has to say about Nandigram: http://www.indianexpress.com/story/239368.html

West Bengal Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee's call to the 10,000 villagers of Nandigram his CPM cadres evicted in what he called a "morally and legally" justifiable step.

Comment by Sanjay

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:35:08 EST

Mikey will of course tell us to avoid discussing what is currently going on, because it's not as important as his exclusive fixation with Gujarat. As you know, human rights should be highly compartmentalized to suit the political convenience of the Left. Let's read about the price being paid for this convenience: http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14560829&vsv=SHGTpicslot

Comment by Sanjay

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:31:17 EST

The Congress Party is of course staying conspicuously silent on the Nandigram massacres. That's no surprise, coming from a party that carried out the 1984 riots. http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14560291 So what do our selective humanitarians have to say on this ongoing massacre in West Bengal? "Shhh! Don't confuse matters by bringing up Nandigram, I've more important human rights issues to think about!" What a joke. What a scam. It shows how human rights has been reduced to a mere game, by our crackpot Left-wing "moral guides".

Comment by Mike Ghouse

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:29:42 EST

There are two refreshers on Gujarat: Modi must be punished by Kuldip Nayar http://gujaratjustice.blogspot.com/2007/11/modi-must-be-punished.html and The whole of BJP is debased by Shailendra Pandey http://gujaratjustice.blogspot.com/2007/11/whole-of-bjp-is-debased.html

Comment by Sanjay

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:24:45 EST

Ohhh, Mike, how unsurprised I am about your comments. Selective liberalism isn't liberalism at all. Selective human rights aren't humane at all. Compartmentalizing human rights according to your convenience then makes it have little to do with humanitarianism.

Comment by Sanjay

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:22:38 EST

The Left parties say Nandigram can't be discussed in parliament: http://www.hindu.com/2007/11/15/stories/2007111561311600.htm Ohh, events in any other state can be discussed in parliament according to their double standards, but the mass destruction in Nandigram can't be. How ethical our Leftist comrades are. Like I said, it's therefore no surprise that a left-slanted site like DesiLeftists.com isn't uttering a word about what's happened in Nandigram.

Comment by Mike Ghouse

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:19:16 EST

Sanjay, With reference to your comment in # 28, yes, Nandigram is another shameful event that needs full investigation. CPM needs to know, that Justice means justice. In this thread however, we are talking about Gujarat and let's stick with that. Let's not get out of focus and decimate the issue. I am learning about Nandigram, and when I have substantial understanding, I will write about it, or if you write, we can talk about it on that thread. Mike Ghouse

Comment by Sanjay

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:06:55 EST

The CPI-M is now issuing threats against any media who dare to report on the massacres: http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14560900&vsv=SHGTpicslot But there won't be any articles on this, here at DesiCretins.com Nahh, there's just too much important human rights work to be done, to be bothered about this lesser stuff. :P

Comment by Sanjay

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:58:22 EST

This myope is busy focusing on Gujarat, which is past history, and meanwhile he's blatantly ignoring the Nandigram massacre which is taking place RIGHT NOW. Tell me, which is more important -- investigating a homicide which occurred weeks ago, or first stopping one that is occurring right now under your very nose, and which is still preventable? It think that the answer is obvious. And yet the Nandigram massacre is being ignored by our selective humanitarians. There are no big syrupy posts going on about that, because these posters aren't motivated by human rights, especially not of the helpless lives that are being snuffed out right now, and which could still be saved. The death toll in the Nandigram massacre is shaping up to be at least as bad as Gujarat. But will we see any attention being paid to it? NOPE. Are there any big articles being posted here on DesiHypocrites.com about it? NOPE. Any calls for trials at the Hague? NOPE. Modi at least tried to stop the riots, which were perpetrated by the masses, and you can see the record number of police officers killed and injured during the riots. Buddhadeb is actively overseeing the mass murder which is being perpetrated by his own Communist Party cadres. They are using heavy weaponry, including automatic assault rifles and landmines. Where is the outrage on DesiHypocrites.com? Will it conveniently appear weeks later, with the Lefties claiming they were concerned at the time, but were unfortunately too busy to be able to speak out? The Congress is actively courting the Communists now, sensing that this massacre has made them vulnerable and thus more willing to make compromises at the negotiating table. The Congress hopes to use the CPI-M concerns over its massacre to convince it to now support the Nuclear Deal. I have been on record repeatedly here as supporting the Nuclear Deal as something beneficial for India. But I certainly will not support such a deal if it's to be paid for by massacres of the kind we're seeing at Nandigram. And that's what your beloved Congress Party is doing right now. Are they feeling shock or grief or outrage at the massacre that's currently going on? NOPE. They're instead feeling glee that their uncooperative coalition partner has now made themselves vulnerable and now requires some favours that the Congress can then cash in for their own benefit. What a bloody joke. And what a joke this website is, with nobody noticing any of this, or commenting on it, or even feeling anything at all about it. A massacre is going on, and which event does Mike Ghouse choose to talk about? The one that's happening now and can still be stopped? NOPE. That's not Mike's style, blind fool that he is. Instead of saving the man who's drowning right now, our quick-witted lifeguard is going to prowl the beach with his magnifying glass, looking for clues on events that happened years ago. What a genius. What a gathering place of the best and brightest our DesiCrackpots.com is. What a farce. "Shhhh! Will you villagers over in Nandigram stop screaming so loud? You're disrupting my concentration! I'm busy investigating the Gujarat riots! Cmon, I'm engaged in important human rights work, so shut up and stop that din!" http://us.rediff.com/news/2007/nov/14nandi2.htm

Comment by Gope Lalwani

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:06:06 EST

[avoid cut n paste please. put a link with your comments]

Comment by Mike Ghouse

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:11:55 EST

Kannan; {{{ "Kafirs are those who deny the existence of a creator" So are atheists, who believe that God does not exist, Kafirs? Please do answer. I would urge you to use your definition and state in today's world describe the kafir and give use some examples.}}} We have to remember this distinction very clearly - religion came into being to fix us the individuals, to prevent us from disrupting a normal functioning of society. A majority of us, no matter what faith we profess follow the rules, just as we follow the criminal laws and traffic laws. However, not all of us follow the religion, even though we subscribe to it. A few amongst us murder, rape.... and a few violate the traffic rules. Although a group believes in their holy book, follow the law books of their city (or nation), yet they make mistakes. The issue is not with religion or the law books, it is the individual who commits the crime. Not all Atheists, Bahai... all the way to zoroastrian are bad, some of them are, they are because they did not understand the message of their faith or perhaps, their acts would have been there no matter what faith they wear. Now addressing Kafir - God (or creation for our Atheist friends) created us all and it wants a peaceful co-existence among its creation. It cannot distinguish one from the other, all are his (it or she) creation. An acknowledgement of this develops an understanding that we, the humans beings are on par with each other and we have to co-exist in peace for survival. From a Quraanic perspective, as you have asked me to, any one who denies the existence of the source of creation is not subscribing to the co-existence. Who are the deniers? None. Even the atheists acknowledge a source of creation no matter how we define that source and subscribe to the idea of co-existence. I head a group of about 3000 members world wide called World Muslim Congress and we have discussed this several times - it includes the scholars, Imams and ordinary folks. Our Mission is driven by the Qur'an, Al-Hujurat, Surah 49:13: "O mankind! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. The noblest of you, in sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Allah Knows and is Aware." and our Mission is.... Continued There are still a few extremist out there who believe a Kafir is a Hindu, but that does not mean much to them and they go on living their daily life, Just as a few extremists proclaiming to be Hindu believe about others. Those fanatics actually go against the will of their own religion -i.e., Every one is prohibited from Killing any human as the Quran states "to kill a human is to kill the whole humanity. Yet, you find people among Hindu Muslim Christian or otherwise engage in going on a killing spree using words such as Jihad (means inner struggle to better oneself and not war). No matter how tight a society is, criminals will always be there, we have them in all societies, if they happen to be Muslims, the world at this juncture is giving them that label for their acts, otherwise the world had not done that up until the 60's and others don't get the same label. ---------- <<< As for Hinduism stating that " Hinduism talks about respecting and honoring other people" please do consider that sanatana dharma does not state anything in opposite. When one's society is in trouble, there is nothing that says Hindus should bend over and pray. Sorry that is not going to happen. >>> ------------- Kannan, you may personally not help anyone, and that is fine, it is your choice. But when Tsunami happened, people (of all faiths) were out there helping, when Gujarat Earthquake happened, one of my aunts sold her gold jewelry and donated to the victims... same happened with Katrina. Remember Vasudeva Kutambam? The whole world in one family, whether a few people help or not, the human kind will step in regardless of their religion. Santana Dharma, Islam, Christianity..... Zoroastrianism, all seek to treat humankind with dignity. I can give you quotes from all faiths. ______________________________________ <<< As regards Gujarat, lot of people have stated some facts. Do hope you would have some counters. Maybe i can point out from the other comments the following a) 254 Hindus were killed. How? Please do answer. This is apart from the 59 burnt in the Sabarmati Express b) When was 3 days of license given to the Hindus to riot as they wish against Muslims (Hope this is genocide you are talking about). As people have pointed out the army came in 24hrs after the riots broke out. 1st of March was the day flag march happened in Ahmedabad. Please tell us where were 3 days given out? How did Modi let things go out of hand? c) How do you term it as a genocide?What is your definition? and How does this fit in to a genocide. Hope you clarify this for us all too. >>>> ------------- a) It was the mayhem, Hindus killing Muslims and Muslims Killing Hindus. I believe (to be verified) that the 254 were in addition to the 56 (or 59). b) Right after the Godhra incident http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfnTl_Fwvbo http://gujaratjustice.blogspot.com . Even though the Army came in, the mayhem continued where army was not. Look at several documentaries and news paper reports. Every confession has pointed to Modi that he gave three days to do their job and it is in the confesssions - Confession by Arvind Pandya Confession by Babu Bajrangi Confession by Ramesh Dave Criminals cry to be out on bail c) It was a Genocide because the intent was to finish off or clean out an ethnic community. I advocate, what happened was despicable, but individuals must be tried on the basis of the crime and not religion. It sounds like a contradiction but it ain't. We have to bring justice to Hindus, Muslims and all... justice brings hope to the people and fear to the criminals. Please do not expect me to have all the answers, as no one has. All we can do is express our understandings and hope we can develop a consensus and solve the problem and prevent it from happening by giving hope to people. That law and order prevails in civil societies.

Comment by Mike Ghouse

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:01:27 EST

Comment by Mike Ghouse

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:53:34 EST

Comment by Mike Ghouse

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:47:01 EST

Comment by Kannan

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:33:22 EST

Hello Mike, Thanks for answering questions dilligently. you may have chosen to ignore them without anyone uttering "cop out", but you stood by what you believe and that is laudable. But when you speak about Hinduism, I would rather request you to please read more before saying something. You said "Kafirs are those who deny the existence of a creator" So are atheists, who believe that God does not exist, Kafirs? Please do answer. I would urge you to use your definition and state in today's world describe the kafir and give use some examples. As for Hinduism stating that " Hinduism talks about respecting and honoring other people" please do consider that sanatana dharma does not state anything in opposite. When one's society is in trouble, there is nothing that says Hindus should bend over and pray. Sorry that is not going to happen. As regards Gujarat, lot of people have stated some facts. Do hope you would have some counters. Maybe i can point out from the other comments the following a) 254 Hindus were killed. How? Please do answer. This is apart from the 59 burnt in the Sabarmati Express b) When was 3 days of license given to the Hindus to riot as they wish against Muslims (Hope this is genocide you are talking about). As people have pointed out the army came in 24hrs after the riots broke out. 1st of March was the day flag march happened in Ahmedabad. Please tell us where were 3 days given out? How did Modi let things go out of hand? c) How do you term it as a genocide?What is your definition? and How does this fit in to a genocide. Hope you clarify this for us all too.

Comment by Kerty

Wed, 14 Nov 2007 00:22:24 EST

Mike... I agree that those who committed crimes during riots should be treated as criminals and not members of any religious group. But to claim that it was not a riot or not a religious riot would amount to not facing the truth. You yourself in one of the comment claim that it was a progrom - now why would it be called a progrom if a particular community was not targeted? As I mentioned in my earlier post, one can treat the incident for what it really was, a communal riot or one can live in a make-believe world with blinkers on and treat it as mere issue of law and order and punishing the guilty as criminals and ignore all other dimensions involved in the conflict, because one would rather not deal with them. Read my post#8 why solution you offer merely addresses symptoms but do not go far enough to address real issues involved in the conflict.