Gujarat - Punish the Guilty

u my friend are a total disgrace[NOT VEHEMENT ENOUGH TO DELETE, BUT UNSUPPORTED PERSONAL ALLEGATION - EDITOR]

[EDITED - PERSONAL AND IP BANNED]

Just your luck, Mike, to get hate mail on your first article(s) - it's a mark of honor, believe me, online:) either way, our editors have cleaned up the trash.

Coming to your article, well reasoned - this is not a religious issue - it is a criminal one, and anyone who supported it is culpable by reason of association. And before anyone jumps on my throat about the original offence, the same applies, pari passu

I hope Tehelka goes out to Nandigram as well. They did a great job in the Gujarat/Godhra/Modi story.

But irrespective of that.... i agree with the sentiment in this article.

I think some reality check is in order because propaganda when repeated often acquires a force of truth.

1) Army and units from neighboring states were called in within 24hours. It was deployed on 1st March. The riots began on 28th Feb that was last day of month

2) Shoot at sight orders were given within 24 hours and number of deaths due to police bullets is astounding - both hindus and moslems died at police hands. In the history of riots, no other riots had so many people were killed by police bullets.

3)Number of arrests made was also astounding. It was in thousands. Number of criminal cases tried in the court and number of rioters put behind bars also broke previous records.

4) Moslems participated equally in riots. On 1st March, mosems had launched counter riots that killed large number of Hindus. Over 40,000 hindus had to take refuge in refugee camps.

5) One of the major problem in trying riot cases in court is systemic in all riots - Gujarat was still able to put large number of rioters behind jail

- not many people come forward to be witness
- Witnesses change testimony under duress, threats or bribes
- There is considerable coersion and false testimonies on both sides. Many people are lured to file false allegations and charges. One of the reason VHP is mad at Modi is that Modi has not protected Hindus and lots of money is being poured into moslem community to file false allegations against persons connected with VHP. There is also anti-modi political incentive to settle political scores by making false and exaggerated claims and allegations. It is so messy it becomes hard for courts to find out who is telling truth.
- Many cases have been reopened when fresh testimony and witnesses are available.
- Even with all said and done, largest number of people have been indicted than any other riots.

6) Gujarat administration like any other state administration have preparedness to manage normal day-to-day events but they are not designed to handle riots, disasters, natural calamities. Gujarat earthquake saw most lethargic response from Gujarat administration, and yet no other state government could have done any better. One should not fault Gujarat administration for initial lethargy and apathy during initial hours of outbreak of riots of such magnitude and scope.

7) Gujarat riots occured within 2 months of Modi becoming CM - this was his first brush with running a government and his lack of experienced showed in handling sensitive events. But he has learnt from this episode. Gujarat under Modi has not seen any riots ever since in spite of so many terrorists events provoking backlash from HIndus. Terrorism took place right in Capital of Gujarat, right inside a temple complex, where terrorists fired ak-47 on helpless devotees - the attack would have exploded into a major riot - but wiser and more experienced Modi knew how to avert a crisis. Gujarat has seen dozens of riots year after year, but Modi has provided riot-free Gujarat after he was elected as CM. He has taken Gujarat past communal politics and made people of gujart focus on development. His distractors are still stuck in 2002 riots and politics of communalism while Gujarat has moved beyond. I think continued fixation with 2002 riots qualifies as cheap exploitation of riots for political ends.

According to a written reply to the Rajya Sabha on 11/5/2005, Mminister of State for Home Affairs, Sriprakash Jaiswal, a total of 790 Muslims and 259 Hindus were killed in post Godhra riots in 2002 in Gujarat.

Both communities were involved in Madness, the result was " RIOT"
This episode cannot be called GENOCIDE, in which Muslims only were killed.

The entire show created by Tejpal-Tehlka is based on Modi bashing.
The show does not show 259 Hindus torched and slaughtered by Muslims !!!

Approximately 1050 citizens of secular India died in Gujarat.
259 died on one side and 790 died on the other side in the gang war.
The gang war in between two factions, groups or communities can be called RIOT and not the genocide.



Looking to above figures of riot victims, It can be said that 25% victims of
the riot were Hindus, while they formed 85% percent population.
The Majority community 85% strong suffered 25% loss at the hands of only 15% minority
population, show that muslims were more barbaric
in riots.
This clearly prove that Minority community was more Active in Riots than
Majority communities, otherwise ratio of victims in Minority communities would have been 6 to 1 and not 3 to 1.

India saw Millions Hindus and Muslim slaughtered in Hindu-Muslims Riots at the time of partition of India. Should we blame the episode on
Gandhi and Nehru?

I think the way Modi is being targeted and made responsible is unfair.

Over-all more counts of Hindus are slaughtered in secular India than Muslims,
as victims of communal riots and Islamic Terror.
More Hindus are slaughtered in Mamba alone compared to Muslims, based
on the Ratio of population of both communities in Mumbai; who are victims of communal riots and Islamic Terror of 1993 serial Bomb blasts and serial train bombing of trains. Muslims are definitely more active in engineering riots and sabotage every where in secular India,yet they blame Hindus for atrocities.

In 1971, despite the well known fact that the Pakistan army had killed close to 300,000, mainly Hindus, in Bangladesh (a figure accepted by the official Hamidur Rehman commission as well -- Pakistan General Gul Hasan who was chief of the army at the time claims that over 600,000 were killed), there was no internal strife as all parties (including the much reviled RSS) were co-opted in keeping this secret. Ninety percent of the nearly 1 crore (10 million) refugees that poured into India were also Hindus. But even this was successfully hidden from the public.http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/mar/03spec1.htm

During SIKH GENOCIDE, comparing the situation in Delhi with that in Kolkata which had also witnessed initial violence against the Sikhs "the failure of Delhi authorities to respond to the early signals of trouble contrasted with the alacrity displayed by their counterparts in Kolkata.
"Significantly, mob violence broke out in Kolkata even before it did in Delhi. The violence, however, fizzled out in Kolkata because at the first sign of attacks on Sikhs, the local government led by Communists immediately called in the Army to restore law and order".

NO ARMY WAS CALLED IN DELHI EVEN AFTER THE GENOCIDE OF THOUSANDS OF SIKHS WAS STARTED BY THE PROVOCATIVE STATEMENT BY RAJIV GANDHI, WHO WAS MADE PRIME MINISTER,
SAYING THAT "THE BANYAN TREE HAS FALLEN SHAKING THE EARTH"

ALL THESE FIVE YEARS THE MUSLIMS IN GUJERAT HAVE
NOT MIGRATED ELSE WHERE DURING MODI's CHIEF MINISTERSHIP.

ON THE CONTRARY MUSLIM POPULATION HAS INCREASED
IN THE STATE DURING MODI's RULE.

MUSLIMS ARE EQUAL PARTNERS IN EXCELLENT PROGRESS
IN GUJARAT. MUSLIMS ARE NOT LEFT OUT BY MODY's RULE.

A recent study conducted by RBI reveals that Gujarat ranks first with a proposed investment of $ 17.8 billion whereas the total FDI inflow in 2007 stands at $ 68 billion. It is 25.8 per cent of the total FDI.

The development story of Gujarat in the last six years has many pleasant surprises. Gujarat has first class infrastructure. It also means that Gujarat's political leadership generates enough confidence among the investors from India and abroad and that the State governance is trusted upon by all concerned.

It means providing large-scale employment, it means industrialisation;
it means huge exports and it also means vigorous economic activity.
Gujarat is a shinning example in India's economic development and self
reliance.

The problem of women, youth, self-employed, old, disabled and poor have been addressed through one or the other project with great success. E-governance has made the task easier. Even the poorest of the poor can be attended by special and big hospitals of the city. The same implies to pregnant women. In Gujarat urban development does not mean serving only nine cities but also smaller towns and blocks numbering 168. The face of Gujarat has changed beyond recognition.

UK based NRI industrialist Lord Swaraj Paul praised the excellent infrastructure and Roads network developed in Gujarat. "Gujarat is the most impressive State in the whole of the country." he said.

There is no one area where Gujarat has not made significant progress in the last six years. The credit has to be given to Modi.
Meet any Gujarati in India or abroad. They are all praises for Modi. Even his critics and opponents concede this though they have been critical about him on other aspects of his personality and behaviour. Yet nobody questioned his integrity and honesty. Rebels within the party have some grouse against him but even they concede what is due to him.

Continued....

8)Both hindus and moslems have network and capability to over-night produce, amass and distribute explosives and riot material. Gujarat has seen countless riots year after year, hence both sides have acquired capability and preparedness. Overnight, factories and masjids can be converted into ammunition despots. Both sides were expecting a big show down during ayodhya movement. Godhra incident provided a triger.

I think Gujarat riots have acquired notoriety because there were many firsts in this riot:

1) Hindus started this riot. Otherwise, riots are normally started by moslems and fought back by hindus

2) This riot happened in BJP-ruled state. All other riots have normally occured in congress-ruled states. Because it happened in BJP-ruled state, it was immediately been politicised and propagandised. Since there has not been any other riot since than, this riot has stayed in propaganda

3) NDA provided riot-free administration but this riot came to the rescue of its distractors. For years, anti-BJP propaganda had scared minorities about BJP progrom against minorities but none was forthcoming under NDA rule - but along came Gujarat riots, and they were immediately categorised as that much waited evidence of progrom against minorities.


Riots are symptom of greater malignancy in our system.

1) That both communities are living in mutual hate/distrust and suspicion. There is no attempt to usher reconcilliation or healing at religious level. There have been attempts at cultural and social level, but not at religious level

2) That there is no mechanism for both communities to heal old wounds, have peaceful inter-faith dialogue. There is no mechanism to address or redress their grievences - any hair-trigger event results in riots because there is no other way people can sort out their differences.

3)That leadership on both sides are not willing to offer or accept any gesture of goodwill - most of which occurs at people-to-people level, but not at leadership and organizational level. Mullahs keep on spitting fire

4) Media and political process give no room to inter-faith dialogue or addressing of grievances. Instead, they add insult to the injury, stroke communal confrontation over any hindu assertion. Media, political process and democratic machine, for ideological reasons, have suppressed and failed both communities and therefore these communities do not look up to them to do justice to their aspirations and issues - they are left to fend for themselves and sort out their concerns and differences out in the streets with muscle power. Thus riots are symptom of failed statecraft and failed ideology - that should be the focus of cure, but instead, people's attention is being diverted away from such failure by shifting the blame. Even if all rioters are thrown in jail and state administration is held accountable for its failures, it will not prevent riots or address root causes of distrust. Victims of riots deserve better. Otherwise, they will not be the last batch of victims.

Aaman, thanks for your comments, indeed, people criticize only those who speak out and activate things. I don't believe the criticism is personal, they are sharing what they know, and through dialogue and openness, all of us can walk away with a little more knowledge than before.

I have come to believe strongly that labeling a riot as religious, is our inability to face the problem squarely.

Those who have clearly committed the crime, after proper investigations, must be brought to justice as individuals.

Even parents will not do much, if their son is involved in drugs, crimes, rape etc. They let the court take it over. Neither the neighbors will step in.

Color that boy as a Muslim or Hindu, the neighborhood comes to his rescue, as branding a religion involves every one with the same brand.

We need to punish the individuals, those who have read the piece know, that I have advocated punishing any one who has committed a crime; be it Godhra, Kashmir, Gujarat.... or other places.

Thanks for publishing this, and I welcome any questions, or discussion on a specific issue.

Mike Ghouse

Calling it a genocide is completely unwarranted and an asusual rantings of pseudo secularism.... the the horror of riots are despicable still the author should agree that more violent genocides have been perperated in India either against the Sikhs, or Kashmiri Pandits or against hindus by Mughal rulers for centuries.... or even during Partition of India... Why hiding all those and calling Gujrat a genocide?? Our country has witnessed riots all throughout the history and more unspeakable horrors were committed before gujrat on hindus and sikhs

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

Right now, the Communist partners of the Congress-led ruling coalition are busily terrorizing and massacring their way towards confiscating land they've no right to.

MPs are quitting -- even from the ruling Communist Party in West Bengal. Clearly the actual party cadres from the Communist Party are spearheading the violence.

But is the holier-than-thou Congress Party opposing this? NOPE!
On the contrary, the Congress Party is seeking an audience with the Communist leaders, for the purpose of cutting a deal with them:

"You help us vote through the Nuclear Deal, and we'll see that your little pogrom in Nandigram gets brushed under the rug."

What's going on right now in W.Bengal is clear for all the world to see. It's happening in broad daylight.

Will there be an Tehelka "exposee" or "sting" on any of this? You can bet your life there won't be.
Because Tehelka doesn't care about human rights -- they only care about pulling dirty tricks to help their masters in the Congress Party, under the pretense of pursuing "human rights". The miserable little scammers.

Sanjay...

1. There is a HUGE difference between a political party doing something and the government doing something.

2. I hope Nandigram gets investigated thoroughly and professionally.

Two wrongs do not make a right.... the outcry against Modi is not political (as much as the Right would like to make it so) - it ought to be self evident that something that is so blatantly illegal should not be reduced to politics.

If you point to the CPM - the same L K Advani who was quiet when the Tehelka tapes came out, now invokes the Mahabharata in the Nandigram issue.

Instead of asking for and demanding a professional, thorough investigation by agencies who have personnel trained for criminal investigations, he turns it into a political issue..

As long as the BJP plays politics with these things, they are in the same boat as the CPI-M.

Mike..,
It is unfortunate that you quoted "Shri Rajagopalachari". The problem is, all these secualar idealism is FOR HINDUS and BY HINDUS.
Why don't you quote a contemperary Muslim leader who said similar lines.

Ohh..wait...you might not find one. Right? Or at that time Muslim leaders are plannig for systematic execution of Shudi movement leaders?
You tell me WHERE ARE THE GREAT MUSLIM SECULAR LEADERS?
This tells the whole story of what Hindus think and what Muslims think.

Kartikeya wrote:
"There is a HUGE difference between a political party doing something and the government doing something."

What, are you implying that the CPI-M is not the govt in W.Bengal? Are you implying that the Congress govt is not the ruling government at the Centre?

Dear Chensiva:

1. Agree that genocides have been perpetrated against Sikhs, Kashmiri Pandits and against Hindus by some Mughal rulers. It was indeed stated in the first few lines.

2. Modi gave three days to clean up, meaning ethnic cleansing, it is genocide, a deliberate planned attempt to wipe a people, just as it happened with Sikh or Kashmiri Pandits. In the case of Gujarat, what is horrible is the involvement of state and that makes it a pogrom.

3. Gujarat issue has re-surfaced now and hence the appeal.

4. In all instances, we have to punish the individual criminals, justice has to be served.
Crimes are committed by individuals.

Mike Ghouse

Kartikeya...

1) you allege that government did something in case of Gujarat. What did it do? Please do not repeat mere allegations because they are merely that even after 5 years of trying hard to prove them.

2)You allege that outcry against Modi is not political. On what ground you base your claim?

3)You want Nadigram to be investigated. By professionally, do you mean by media and Tehlka? why are they not investigating? Where is the moral outcry to condemn, investgate and punish?

4) You allege that not asking for and demanding a professional, thorough investigation by agencies who have personnel trained for criminal investigations, Advani has turned it into a political issue. Unless a political party or media can create pressure to force government, how do you expect government to yield to demand for indepedent investigation?

5) You claim that 'it ought to be self evident that something that is so blatantly illegal should not be reduced to politics'. What illegality is self-evident? How has it be proven to become self-evident? By tehlka sting? And if so, is Tehlka a thorough and professional investigating agency?

6)You allege that because Advani was quiet about Tehlka findings, his dabbling in Nadigram amounts to politizing it. Is Tehlka a professional investigative agency or judiciary? Why should any political party leader comment on Tehlka findings? BJP has consistently maintained that judicial process has to take its course on proving the crimes and punishing the guilty - what more you expect from political leaders about matters that are before consideration of judiciary and commission?

7) You emphasize that two wrong do not make it right. Do you mean we should have two different yardsticks for both? If both are wrong, where is the similar outrage and witch-hunt to get to the bottom of it?

8) Why politicing an issue should make it less compelling? Isn't political process a desired venue to tackle issues that relate to political parties, political leaders, ideologies?

Sanjay,

If Tehelka does not do it, you may consider taking it up. It is an important issue.

Even if Tehelka's motives were not right, it does not diminish, it should not, the fact that people were burnt alive, the fetuses were pulled out, 56 people were burnt alive in the train...

All this has to be accounted and the guilty to be punished.

Mike Ghouse

Mike Ghouse ====>
Sorry to be critical, but reading your profile I was expecting a independent article. But yours seems to be a assortment of all the news(stress one-sided) we hear in our mainstream media.
What new did you say that we don't know ?.
Your points are directly air-lifted from our Indian main stream media as usual without any basis and proof....just allegations.
Being Muslim there is no secret which side you talk.
Give me your article on
1) Vande Mataram- where Indian Muslims stand
2) Indian Muslim Loyality (Don't evade the topic by saying I dont have to prove my loyality to anyone crap. When in doubt what is wrong in showing)
3) Why did Indian Muslims protest George Bush visit to India?
4) Are Hindus Kafirs? What is your take on this.

Or,
Please read some more articles/blogs and come back instead of just .....telling nothing.

Mike...

You claim that Modi gave 3 days to conduct a progrom and it is a progrom because you allege state was involved.

Following contradict your assertions:

1) Shoot at sight orders were given on 28th, same day riots began. Many hindus were killed by police bullet on 28th

2) Army was flag marching in Ahmedabad on 1st March at 9am. Some over-zealous media miscalculated days between 28th and 1st march to be 3 days, but february does not have 29th, 30th and 31st. There are no 3 days of state complicity in riots. You are merely repeating same miscalculated lies here.

3) If there was a progrom, why would so many hindus got killed by police bullets right from day one riots began? I have figures of how many hindus that were killed on 28th and 1st march.

Lots of allegations have been flying in propaganda quoting each other but never bothering to investigate thoroughly or verify them. Media in Gujarat has given detailed coverage of events as they happened and you will get correct picture referring to it as opposed to media outside Gujarat.

Dear Razor Image:

Absolutely!

Here are two of Shri Rajagopalachari's contemporaries:
" In my opinion,the greatest service which the Maulana did was to teach people of every religion that there are two aspects of religion. One seperates and creates hatred.This is the false aspect. The other,the true spirit of religion,brings people togather; it creates
understanding.It lies in the spirit of service, in sacrificing self for others.It implies belief in unity,in the essential unity of things"

Zakir Husain, in 'A Homage', p.34


" The tragedy is that the world worships words instead of meanings,and even though all are seeking and worshipping but one truth, they
quarrel with one another over differences in mere names....If one day the veils of 'extrenals and names' can be lifted so that truth and reality(haqiqat)come before all unveiled, then, at once,all quarrels of this world will end, and all who quarrel will see that what we all seek is one and the same"

'Khutabat-e-Azad', ed.Shorish Kashmiri, pp.333-334

If the whole world is our country and is to be honored, the dust of India has the first place. If all mankind are our brothers, then the Indians have the first place.

" Not only is our national freedom impossible without Hindu-Muslim unity, we also can not create without it, the primary principles of humanity. If an angel were to tell me: "Discard Hindu-Muslim unity and within 24 hours I will give freedom to India; I would prefer Hindu-Muslim unity. For the delay in the attainment of freedom will be a loss to India alone, but if the Hindu-Muslim unity disappears, that will be a loss to the whole humanity.

There are a lot more people.

Dear Razor Image;

1) Vande Mataram- where Indian Muslims stand -
There is a full blown article on the subject at: http://mikeghouse.sulekha.com/blog/post/2006/06/vande-mataram-or-co-existens.htm

2) Indian Muslim Loyalty (Don't evade the topic by saying I don't have to prove my loyalty to anyone crap. When in doubt what is wrong in showing).

What is that you want? I am as loyal to India as you or any one. Is my loyalty dependent on being your servant? Then I am not loyal to you. If loyalty means serving and caring for India and Indians, I am deeply loyal. Please take a look at this: http://mikeghouse.sulekha.com/blog/post/2000/02/patriotism-a-fresh-approach.htm

3) Why did Indian Muslims protest George Bush visit to India?

Why did so many Indians protest about Nuclear deal with the US, it is good for India, you may or may not agree with it. The disagreement literally derailed what was good for India. What is wrong with protests? 70% of Americans don't approve of President Bush. We as Indians did not support him in Iraq. What's wrong with the protest?

4) Are Hindus Kafirs? What is your take on this.

No, Hindu's are not Kafirs, Kafirs are those who deny the existence of a creator. What you hear out is not the truth. Hinduism is as monotheistic as any other faith is, but that is not the perception. There are plenty of articles on it, indeed, there is movement to accept Ram and Krishna as Prophets, as their work uplifted morality and conscience of a people, People and kings have made mistakes, religions don't. The Vedas, Qur'aan, Bible, Torah and others are all divine, as they are the essence of a larger wisdom. Hinduism talks about respecting and honoring other people, some Hindu's violate it, Islam talks about Pluralism, some Muslims violate it... let me correct it, some people get the message of their religion and some don't.

Qur'an, Al-Hujurat, Surah 49:13: "O mankind! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. The noblest of you, in sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Allah Knows and is Aware."

Finding the truth is one's own responsibility - Holy Bhagvad Gita

Mike Ghouse
www.FoundationforPluralism.com

There are not enough psychiatrists and psychiatric hospitals in the world to treat the anger of the Islamic societies.

Once they would be cured of this anger instilled in them by their religious fanatic and their leaders, the Islamic societies would see the light of their anger and really turn it towards
their real oppressors, their real tyrants and abusers: their leaders who have been poisoning their minds.

Perhaps they will realise that their own outspoken writers and free thinking people, historians and people who could make a real change in improving the quality of their lives by
improving the status in regarding world wide progress, are their true well wishers.

The people who could make a change for them; are either facing"Fatwas" from Radical Islamic Mullahs or have been assassinated

Mike...

I agree that those who committed crimes during riots should be treated as criminals and not members of any religious group. But to claim that it was not a riot or not a religious riot would amount to not facing the truth. You yourself in one of the comment claim that it was a progrom - now why would it be called a progrom if a particular community was not targeted?

As I mentioned in my earlier post, one can treat the incident for what it really was, a communal riot or one can live in a make-believe world with blinkers on and treat it as mere issue of law and order and punishing the guilty as criminals and ignore all other dimensions involved in the conflict, because one would rather not deal with them. Read my post#8 why solution you offer merely addresses symptoms but do not go far enough to address real issues involved in the conflict.

Hello Mike,
Thanks for answering questions dilligently. you may have chosen to ignore them without anyone uttering "cop out", but you stood by what you believe and that is laudable.
But when you speak about Hinduism, I would rather request you to please read more before saying something.

You said
"Kafirs are those who deny the existence of a creator"
So are atheists, who believe that God does not exist, Kafirs? Please do answer. I would urge you to use your definition and state in today's world describe the kafir and give use some examples.

As for Hinduism stating that " Hinduism talks about respecting and honoring other people" please do consider that sanatana dharma does not state anything in opposite. When one's society is in trouble, there is nothing that says Hindus should bend over and pray. Sorry that is not going to happen.
As regards Gujarat, lot of people have stated some facts. Do hope you would have some counters. Maybe i can point out from the other comments the following
a) 254 Hindus were killed. How? Please do answer. This is apart from the 59 burnt in the Sabarmati Express
b) When was 3 days of license given to the Hindus to riot as they wish against Muslims (Hope this is genocide you are talking about). As people have pointed out the army came in 24hrs after the riots broke out. 1st of March was the day flag march happened in Ahmedabad. Please tell us where were 3 days given out? How did Modi let things go out of hand?
c) How do you term it as a genocide?What is your definition? and How does this fit in to a genocide. Hope you clarify this for us all too.

Kannan;

{{{ "Kafirs are those who deny the existence of a creator" So are atheists, who believe that God does not exist, Kafirs? Please do answer. I would urge you to use your definition and state in today's world describe the kafir and give use some examples.}}}

We have to remember this distinction very clearly - religion came into being to fix us the individuals, to prevent us from disrupting a normal functioning of society. A majority of us, no matter what faith we profess follow the rules, just as we follow the criminal laws and traffic laws. However, not all of us follow the religion, even though we subscribe to it. A few amongst us murder, rape.... and a few violate the traffic rules. Although a group believes in their holy book, follow the law books of their city (or nation), yet they make mistakes. The issue is not with religion or the law books, it is the individual who commits the crime.

Not all Atheists, Bahai... all the way to zoroastrian are bad, some of them are, they are because they did not understand the message of their faith or perhaps, their acts would have been there no matter what faith they wear.

Now addressing Kafir - God (or creation for our Atheist friends) created us all and it wants a peaceful co-existence among its creation. It cannot distinguish one from the other, all are his (it or she) creation. An acknowledgement of this develops an understanding that we, the humans beings are on par with each other and we have to co-exist in peace for survival.

From a Quraanic perspective, as you have asked me to, any one who denies the existence of the source of creation is not subscribing to the co-existence. Who are the deniers? None. Even the atheists acknowledge a source of creation no matter how we define that source and subscribe to the idea of co-existence. I head a group of about 3000 members world wide called World Muslim Congress and we have discussed this several times - it includes the scholars, Imams and ordinary folks. Our Mission is driven by the Qur'an, Al-Hujurat, Surah 49:13: "O mankind! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. The noblest of you, in sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Allah Knows and is Aware." and our Mission is.... Continued

There are still a few extremist out there who believe a Kafir is a Hindu, but that does not mean much to them and they go on living their daily life, Just as a few extremists proclaiming to be Hindu believe about others. Those fanatics actually go against the will of their own religion -i.e., Every one is prohibited from Killing any human as the Quran states "to kill a human is to kill the whole humanity. Yet, you find people among Hindu Muslim Christian or otherwise engage in going on a killing spree using words such as Jihad (means inner struggle to better oneself and not war). No matter how tight a society is, criminals will always be there, we have them in all societies, if they happen to be Muslims, the world at this juncture is giving them that label for their acts, otherwise the world had not done that up until the 60's and others don't get the same label.
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<<< As for Hinduism stating that " Hinduism talks about respecting and honoring other people" please do consider that sanatana dharma does not state anything in opposite. When one's society is in trouble, there is nothing that says Hindus should bend over and pray. Sorry that is not going to happen. >>>

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Kannan, you may personally not help anyone, and that is fine, it is your choice. But when Tsunami happened, people (of all faiths) were out there helping, when Gujarat Earthquake happened, one of my aunts sold her gold jewelry and donated to the victims... same happened with Katrina. Remember Vasudeva Kutambam? The whole world in one family, whether a few people help or not, the human kind will step in regardless of their religion.

Santana Dharma, Islam, Christianity..... Zoroastrianism, all seek to treat humankind with dignity.

I can give you quotes from all faiths.

______________________________________

<<< As regards Gujarat, lot of people have stated some facts. Do hope you would have some counters. Maybe i can point out from the other comments the following

a) 254 Hindus were killed. How? Please do answer. This is apart from the 59 burnt in the Sabarmati Express

b) When was 3 days of license given to the Hindus to riot as they wish against Muslims (Hope this is genocide you are talking about). As people have pointed out the army came in 24hrs after the riots broke out. 1st of March was the day flag march happened in Ahmedabad. Please tell us where were 3 days given out? How did Modi let things go out of hand?

c) How do you term it as a genocide?What is your definition? and How does this fit in to a genocide. Hope you clarify this for us all too. >>>>

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a) It was the mayhem, Hindus killing Muslims and Muslims Killing Hindus. I believe (to be verified) that the 254 were in addition to the 56 (or 59).

b) Right after the Godhra incident http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfnTl_Fwvbo http://gujaratjustice.blogspot.com . Even though the Army came in, the mayhem continued where army was not. Look at several documentaries and news paper reports. Every confession has pointed to Modi that he gave three days to do their job and it is in the confesssions -

Confession by Arvind Pandya
Confession by Babu Bajrangi
Confession by Ramesh Dave
Criminals cry to be out on bail

c) It was a Genocide because the intent was to finish off or clean out an ethnic community. I advocate, what happened was despicable, but individuals must be tried on the basis of the crime and not religion. It sounds like a contradiction but it ain't.

We have to bring justice to Hindus, Muslims and all... justice brings hope to the people and fear to the criminals.

Please do not expect me to have all the answers, as no one has. All we can do is express our understandings and hope we can develop a consensus and solve the problem and prevent it from happening by giving hope to people. That law and order prevails in civil societies.

Kannan;

{{{ "Kafirs are those who deny the existence of a creator" So are atheists, who believe that God does not exist, Kafirs? Please do answer. I would urge you to use your definition and state in today's world describe the kafir and give use some examples.}}}

We have to remember this distinction very clearly - religion came into being to fix us the individuals, to prevent us from disrupting a normal functioning of society. A majority of us, no matter what faith we profess follow the rules, just as we follow the criminal laws and traffic laws. However, not all of us follow the religion, even though we subscribe to it. A few amongst us murder, rape.... and a few violate the traffic rules. Although a group believes in their holy book, follow the law books of their city (or nation), yet they make mistakes. The issue is not with religion or the law books, it is the individual who commits the crime.

Not all Atheists, Bahai... all the way to zoroastrian are bad, some of them are, they are because they did not understand the message of their faith or perhaps, their acts would have been there no matter what faith they wear.

Now addressing Kafir - God (or creation for our Atheist friends) created us all and it wants a peaceful co-existence among its creation. It cannot distinguish one from the other, all are his (it or she) creation. An acknowledgement of this develops an understanding that we, the humans beings are on par with each other and we have to co-exist in peace for survival.

From a Quraanic perspective, as you have asked me to, any one who denies the existence of the source of creation is not subscribing to the co-existence. Who are the deniers? None. Even the atheists acknowledge a source of creation no matter how we define that source and subscribe to the idea of co-existence. I head a group of about 3000 members world wide called World Muslim Congress and we have discussed this several times - it includes the scholars, Imams and ordinary folks. Our Mission is driven by the Qur'an, Al-Hujurat, Surah 49:13: "O mankind! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. The noblest of you, in sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Allah Knows and is Aware." and our Mission is.... Continued

There are still a few extremist out there who believe a Kafir is a Hindu, but that does not mean much to them and they go on living their daily life, Just as a few extremists proclaiming to be Hindu believe about others. Those fanatics actually go against the will of their own religion -i.e., Every one is prohibited from Killing any human as the Quran states "to kill a human is to kill the whole humanity. Yet, you find people among Hindu Muslim Christian or otherwise engage in going on a killing spree using words such as Jihad (means inner struggle to better oneself and not war). No matter how tight a society is, criminals will always be there, we have them in all societies, if they happen to be Muslims, the world at this juncture is giving them that label for their acts, otherwise the world had not done that up until the 60's and others don't get the same label.
----------

<<< As for Hinduism stating that " Hinduism talks about respecting and honoring other people" please do consider that sanatana dharma does not state anything in opposite. When one's society is in trouble, there is nothing that says Hindus should bend over and pray. Sorry that is not going to happen. >>>

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Kannan, you may personally not help anyone, and that is fine, it is your choice. But when Tsunami happened, people (of all faiths) were out there helping, when Gujarat Earthquake happened, one of my aunts sold her gold jewelry and donated to the victims... same happened with Katrina. Remember Vasudeva Kutambam? The whole world in one family, whether a few people help or not, the human kind will step in regardless of their religion.

Santana Dharma, Islam, Christianity..... Zoroastrianism, all seek to treat humankind with dignity.

I can give you quotes from all faiths.

______________________________________

<<< As regards Gujarat, lot of people have stated some facts. Do hope you would have some counters. Maybe i can point out from the other comments the following

a) 254 Hindus were killed. How? Please do answer. This is apart from the 59 burnt in the Sabarmati Express

b) When was 3 days of license given to the Hindus to riot as they wish against Muslims (Hope this is genocide you are talking about). As people have pointed out the army came in 24hrs after the riots broke out. 1st of March was the day flag march happened in Ahmedabad. Please tell us where were 3 days given out? How did Modi let things go out of hand?

c) How do you term it as a genocide?What is your definition? and How does this fit in to a genocide. Hope you clarify this for us all too. >>>>

-------------

a) It was the mayhem, Hindus killing Muslims and Muslims Killing Hindus. I believe (to be verified) that the 254 were in addition to the 56 (or 59).

b) Right after the Godhra incident http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfnTl_Fwvbo http://gujaratjustice.blogspot.com . Even though the Army came in, the mayhem continued where army was not. Look at several documentaries and news paper reports. Every confession has pointed to Modi that he gave three days to do their job and it is in the confesssions -

Confession by Arvind Pandya
Confession by Babu Bajrangi
Confession by Ramesh Dave
Criminals cry to be out on bail

c) It was a Genocide because the intent was to finish off or clean out an ethnic community. I advocate, what happened was despicable, but individuals must be tried on the basis of the crime and not religion. It sounds like a contradiction but it ain't.

We have to bring justice to Hindus, Muslims and all... justice brings hope to the people and fear to the criminals.

Please do not expect me to have all the answers, as no one has. All we can do is express our understandings and hope we can develop a consensus and solve the problem and prevent it from happening by giving hope to people. That law and order prevails in civil societies.

[avoid cut n paste please. put a link with your comments]

This myope is busy focusing on Gujarat, which is past history, and meanwhile he's blatantly ignoring the Nandigram massacre which is taking place RIGHT NOW.

Tell me, which is more important -- investigating a homicide which occurred weeks ago, or first stopping one that is occurring right now under your very nose, and which is still preventable? It think that the answer is obvious.

And yet the Nandigram massacre is being ignored by our selective humanitarians. There are no big syrupy posts going on about that, because these posters aren't motivated by human rights, especially not of the helpless lives that are being snuffed out right now, and which could still be saved.

The death toll in the Nandigram massacre is shaping up to be at least as bad as Gujarat. But will we see any attention being paid to it? NOPE.
Are there any big articles being posted here on DesiHypocrites.com about it? NOPE.
Any calls for trials at the Hague? NOPE.

Modi at least tried to stop the riots, which were perpetrated by the masses, and you can see the record number of police officers killed and injured during the riots. Buddhadeb is actively overseeing the mass murder which is being perpetrated by his own Communist Party cadres. They are using heavy weaponry, including automatic assault rifles and landmines.

Where is the outrage on DesiHypocrites.com? Will it conveniently appear weeks later, with the Lefties claiming they were concerned at the time, but were unfortunately too busy to be able to speak out?

The Congress is actively courting the Communists now, sensing that this massacre has made them vulnerable and thus more willing to make compromises at the negotiating table. The Congress hopes to use the CPI-M concerns over its massacre to convince it to now support the Nuclear Deal.

I have been on record repeatedly here as supporting the Nuclear Deal as something beneficial for India. But I certainly will not support such a deal if it's to be paid for by massacres of the kind we're seeing at Nandigram.

And that's what your beloved Congress Party is doing right now. Are they feeling shock or grief or outrage at the massacre that's currently going on? NOPE. They're instead feeling glee that their uncooperative coalition partner has now made themselves vulnerable and now requires some favours that the Congress can then cash in for their own benefit.

What a bloody joke. And what a joke this website is, with nobody noticing any of this, or commenting on it, or even feeling anything at all about it.

A massacre is going on, and which event does Mike Ghouse choose to talk about? The one that's happening now and can still be stopped? NOPE. That's not Mike's style, blind fool that he is. Instead of saving the man who's drowning right now, our quick-witted lifeguard is going to prowl the beach with his magnifying glass, looking for clues on events that happened years ago. What a genius. What a gathering place of the best and brightest our DesiCrackpots.com is.

What a farce.
"Shhhh! Will you villagers over in Nandigram stop screaming so loud? You're disrupting my concentration! I'm busy investigating the Gujarat riots! Cmon, I'm engaged in important human rights work, so shut up and stop that din!"

http://us.rediff.com/news/2007/nov/14nandi2.htm

The CPI-M is now issuing threats against any media who dare to report on the massacres:

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14560900&vsv=SHGTpicslot

But there won't be any articles on this, here at DesiCretins.com

Nahh, there's just too much important human rights work to be done, to be bothered about this lesser stuff. :P

Sanjay,

With reference to your comment in # 28, yes, Nandigram is another shameful event that needs full investigation. CPM needs to know, that Justice means justice. In this thread however, we are talking about Gujarat and let's stick with that. Let's not get out of focus and decimate the issue. I am learning about Nandigram, and when I have substantial understanding, I will write about it, or if you write, we can talk about it on that thread.

Mike Ghouse

The Left parties say Nandigram can't be discussed in parliament:

http://www.hindu.com/2007/11/15/stories/2007111561311600.htm

Ohh, events in any other state can be discussed in parliament according to their double standards, but the mass destruction in Nandigram can't be. How ethical our Leftist comrades are.

Like I said, it's therefore no surprise that a left-slanted site like DesiLeftists.com isn't uttering a word about what's happened in Nandigram.

Ohhh, Mike, how unsurprised I am about your comments.

Selective liberalism isn't liberalism at all. Selective human rights aren't humane at all. Compartmentalizing human rights according to your convenience then makes it have little to do with humanitarianism.

The Congress Party is of course staying conspicuously silent on the Nandigram massacres. That's no surprise, coming from a party that carried out the 1984 riots.

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14560291

So what do our selective humanitarians have to say on this ongoing massacre in West Bengal? "Shhh! Don't confuse matters by bringing up Nandigram, I've more important human rights issues to think about!"

What a joke. What a scam. It shows how human rights has been reduced to a mere game, by our crackpot Left-wing "moral guides".

Mikey will of course tell us to avoid discussing what is currently going on, because it's not as important as his exclusive fixation with Gujarat. As you know, human rights should be highly compartmentalized to suit the political convenience of the Left. Let's read about the price being paid for this convenience:

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14560829&vsv=SHGTpicslot

Modi doesn't defend the Gujarat Riots, but let's hear what our beloved Communist leader Buddhadeb has to say about Nandigram:

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/239368.html

West Bengal Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee's call to the 10,000 villagers of Nandigram his CPM cadres evicted in what he called a "morally and legally" justifiable step.

Buddhadeb says,

"we paid Opposition back in same coin"

That's a quote from the man directly. He's not apologetic about anything. He's quite gleeful about what he's done.

sanjay:

write about nandigram and it will be published here

this is about gujrat, if you can read

;)

Mike...

1) Army started combing operations on 1st March. The Hindu newspaper reported that the counter-riots launched by Moslems on 1st March were so intense and wide-spread that it compounded army's job. Why would you blame Modi or government for Army and police's inability to cope with scope and spread of riots? Army does not operate under Modi's command. If Modi wanted to give free hand to rioters, why would he call army in the first place? Why would he give shoot at sight orders to police?

2) You rely on so-called Tehlka confessions to establish that Modi gave '3 days' to rioters. What makes you think they are confessions? Their uncanny verbatim resemblance to accusations that have already been circulating in the propaganda circles suggests they are merely parroting the accusations that are in the public domain and stating them as facts. If Modi really told them to riot for 3 days, than Modi's actions suggests he actually lied to them and did not keep his word. These confessions will not stand even rudimentary cross-examination in any court. One can get any number of people to say anything against Sonia or Manmohan Singh but that would not establish any facts. There are many motivated elements willing to say anything to spite Modi, and yes, some of them are in inside BJP and VHP too. There is an active anti-modi dissident faction within BJP and VHP and they don't mind working to bolster congress accusations or slandering Modi to spite Modi. You will need lot more than Tehlka scripted cut and paste confessions to establish facts. I have said many things here, why not take it as confession as well? If Tehlka is non-partisan, it should do a similar sting on FIRs and expose how much money they were paid by congress party cadre to file false FIRs and who paid them money?

3) Police or army can not cope with riots during initial breakout and it takes some time to bring them under control but lots of damage is already done by than. That scenario is no different in any riots. Only here, motivated elements driven by anti-Modi agenda have sought to politicize and propagandize it.

4) You claim it was genocide because intent was to finish off and clean out ethnic community. Than why would Modi call army to stop that? Why would his police kill Hindus? Clearly his intent and his actions are diametrically opposite. Look at the results as well - that ethnic community remains in full strength, growing and thriving, doing lot better than anywhere else outside Gujarat. You can't call something a genocide on mere 'intent', it has to have actually occured otherwise it cheapens and devalues actual genocides that have taken place. During riots, members of both communities ended up in refugee camps and many of them would not like to return back to their hostile neighborhoods that made them fled - you can not blame only one community for high level of distrust and suspicion that exists among hindus and moslems. Islamists and secularists bear major blame why both communities are not reconciled to live in peace - their efforts to exploit tragedies of riots for pushing their political and anti-hindu agenda stand in the way of healing any wounds.

5) People in thousands were arrested by government following the riots and FIRs. It is very typical that politicians cutting across party lines would step in to bail some of them out. It happens in all riots. When there is mob event, one can not separate onlookers, bystanders, provocatures and cheerleaders from perpetrators and in combing operations, it is hard to nail only perpetrators. Some are hauled up for merely trapassing in the the curfew. Lots of false arrests are usually made. Families and friends usually pull all kinds of levers to get their family members out. Because it happens in all riots, I would not be surprised if people in Modi's administration get some people off the hook from jail, and some of them could be hardcore rioters. This is one area where some people in administration could be an accomplice, looking the other ways at their alleged crimes in riots, in getting the FIRs dropped or bailing the people out. I am not suggesting that it did happen, but knowing how post-riot scenarios usually works, it would be entirely in the realm of possibility. On the other hand, this riot has been so much under constant minute scrutiny and media glare, it would be highly improbably that really guilty could have gotten away. Even if it can be established that some rioters were indeed let off the hook by influencial people in the administration, being an accomplice of a rioter after the riots is not the same as being accomplice during riots. One fact would not establish the other.

If you do not have all the answers as you say, than right thing to do is to refrain from jumping to conclusions and wait for the answers. What is the point of premature inflamatory rhetorics? In a rush to score political points and not waiting for facts to come out, one can easily fall prey to lies, half-truths and propaganda. Tehlka did the same and now people like you are quoting Tehlka and creating a virtual realty that is disconnected from facts that are known so far.

I think that a large number of charge sheets have been filed and hopefully convictions will be obtained as well.

Secondly, you make an impractical suggestion of dismissing a Govt. The Govt should have been dismissed many years ago when the event had happened. I dont know how old you are but I hope you do recall the tamasha of dismissing state Governments for various reasons (during the 80s). It is not a practical suggestion.

I really dont think religious discord is our number one problem. A new World Bank report is expected to revise India's poverty levels from 350 million to 800 million. That I think is the number one problem.

Instead of us worrying about Mr. Narendra Modi, let us figure out ways to ensure that such an event never happens again.

rgds

GURARAT KA SACH..... ( MUST READ)
by B. P. SINGHAL, IPS. (Retd.), Ex-MP Rajya Sabha.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/India-Force/message/13033


"THE SECULARISTS" ARE AT IT ONCE AGAIN.


It was state sponsored 'TERRORISM'.
It was a well planned 'GENOCIDE'
It was 'POGROM'.

Can Somebody explain this to me

a. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1843591.stm

GODHRA ATTACK- FEB 27TH, 2002

b. http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020302/main1.htm

ARMY FLAG MARCH - MARCH 1ST 2002

THAT IS A GAP OF 36 HOURS

So why do people blame Modi for not doing anything?

rgds

What if there is serious investigation and Mr. Modi admitts that he was involved in the Mayhem?

We need to outgrow our bondage to individuals, when it comes to justice, no matter who it is, justice must be served. Without justice the life transaction remains incomplete and morally weak.

We need to stand up and demand justice.

Mike

That is not a response to my specific question.



Well, it appears that a few individuals do claim that Narendra Modi was involved in the massacres. So why dont you file an FIR on that basis? I am sure if you stand up, others will follow you.

Mike..(#42)

That is purely hypothetical and speculative at this point. But should that scenerio happen, his distractors will not remain few isolated voices in the wilderness as they will be joined by many other powerful voices that will not let up until he is suitably punished - and he will pay big political price for sure - end of his illustrious political career and ambitions, major blemish and temporary setback for hindutva and BJP, honorable mention in every anti-bjp anti-hindu propaganda, empowerment of pseudo secular politics etc.

On the other hand, his indictment will shift the focus back to context within which such crimes happened and bring back the focus on confrontational communal issues that can justify what Modi did. If somebody commits a murder, it adds a whole different dimension if you add a context that it was done in pure self-defense or done in the process of being raped. Modi's indictment will gain similar contexts, politics will get more aggressively communalised and polarised, there could be many more riots and many more would die. The issue will get further complicated after Modi wins this election - any attempt to remove him from office will be seen as just that - an attempt to thwart the democratic mandate of people and it will generate backlash from people, plus as a sitting CM, Modi will have lot more clout to set the agenda in his favor. In a nutshell, it will rock the politics of Gujarat, for far worse.

One may personally desire to treat Modi's hypothetical involvement and punishment as merely law and order, crime and punishment and justice issue but it will not be entirely up to one side to define it and limit it when political stakes become so high on both side of the fence.

Justice is not always about punishing, it is about correction, it is about making sure it does not happen again. Its not justice if it traps one in a cycle of same crime. Last 5 riot-free years have shown that correction is taking place in Gujarat. A poll published just few days ago showed 72% of Gujaratis want to forget 2002 riots and move on.