Gujarat Pogroms Exposed in India

well said.

I know the moment this is said to any modi boot lickers, they dont defend him. They accept he did it and also testify it. But they defend his acts. They say muslims deserve it. Look at Kashmir, look at bangladesh, look at pakistan.

My dear o dear hindu brothers, wat did muslims do to u. We are the lowest economic society society in india. We have under representation in every god damn society. We dont even get good schooling or support frm govt. Look at sachar committe. I know even tat wud be dismissed as political vendetta but wat abt data in it.

Now coming to kashmir issue. Kashmir govt doesnt kill its citizens, its terrorists. U love to call them islamic terrorist so tht u can malign islam and all muslims. Tomorrow i will not be surprised if any thief who robs happens to be muslim will be called islamic thief. Give me a break u morons. noone in world is given names like islamic followers. Hail the media. Infact kashmir govt gives all possible help to its minority which leads to army atrocities which is never questioned in indian media. Army is not goood, they have to obey law.

also wanna add modi cud just be a small person in this whole muslim hate pogrom. Well as good indian citizens u have to think like responsible ppl. Now solution to this gujarat massacre is not fr every muslim in india to kill hindus. (the stupid or rather bloody suggestion given by modi, vajpayee, advani). Its to think wats good fr society. If at all godhra was a planned massacre (which is highly suspicious incident), does it give u license to kill all muslims in india (like US had license to kill all iraqis and afghans). Also being in a gandhian country and state follow some of its principles. I as a muslim find only one long term solution and one short term solution. Long term is to educate every god damn citizen in india (no matter wat it costs me ) education shd be compulsary, tats our best bet. Build schools every god damn place in india. Spend as much as u can. We spend 1000's of crores in defence (totally destructive phenomemnon), i think spendin the same on education (definitely growth phenomenon) will not go waste.

Second the short term solution and shd be implemented with immediate effect, all religious fanatics in country shd be put on live debate wit affected ppl (in this case poor gujarat muslims ) having a chance to question them fr as much time as they like. This shd be done as its definitely no congress propoganda. And if modi thinks he is clean, and if advani thinks he is clean and if vajpayee thinks he is clean (who dared to say he doesnt need muslim votes) face the ppl not the media. U dont need to say anythin against tehelka. Talk against us. Let be open debate, live interview so world will know ur true face. U gusy deserve to be hanged in public. U shd have no mercy fr shameful and dreadful acts u did and u have no mercy in any court of law. the culprits are not those who are in gujarat jails. Its u so called leaders.

But knowin india nuthin of this will happen, 100's of sachar committes, hundred more gujarat will hapen but we will remain puppets to foreign ppl even after freedom. Destroyin ourselves whereas our leaders make merry in their homes.

Now dont dismiss me as muslim fanatic, i hate the so called muslim jihadist (who have destroyed islam name) more than this hindu fanatics. Coz it affects me in the society more than this hindu fanatics. They are more evil to me than them. Thus I will give them more severe punishment than this if i had power.

I admire Mr Modi and would be the happiest in the world if he wins this election.Don't give a shit what this retarded Bong doctor thinks.And hey bong doctor,nobody cares if u do n't like the Sangh.Ask the people who live close to the mullash ghettos.Try living in one.Then if u manage to retain ur identity or life,we will talk.Untill then,go to ur mommy.

BJP is one of India's 2 national parties, which enjoys the support of a significant section of the Indian people. I am offended by the author's description of those who vote for BJP as 'filthy' and 'heinous' and 'untouchable'. Either the writer should apologise for hurting the sentiments of a significant section of the Indian people or editor of desicritics should seriously consider chucking this article into the trash can. This is a highly divisive, racist and abusive piece of writing.

I am a Gujarati, and like the rest of 55 million Gujaratis my response to this bullshit will be to line up outside the polling booths on election day and vote for Narendrabhai Modi.

Commie Bong? Who is a commie Bong? me? How amusing.

secondly, I found it very curious, Raj, that you spent your vituperation on me and forgot all about your compatriots who actually confessed to this murderous episode. You are offended by my comment but not even one word for the crimes. Very interesting, Raj, thank you for your comment.

As Bong Buster, come on, mate, even you can come up with better insults.

But I suppose if you are a supporter of Murderer Modi and find no wrong in him, then perhaps the level of discourse that you are accustomed to is at that level as well.

Cheers

bd

I've been reading Tehelka, especially Tarun Tejpal's editorial. It is horrifying stuff. Thanks Dr. Dasgupta for writing about this on here.

Coming on to DC to find that ostensibly educated people sound no different than those murderers interviewed in Gujarat is an eye opener.

People get the leadership they deserve...and those voting for Mr. Modi certainly prove that. Unfortunately those who were victims of his violence and hatred will also have to live under that same governemnt.

While I certainly share your distaste for the BJP, Dr. Dasgupta I am thoroughly disillusioned with all parties, including and especially, the Congress as well.

They've been in power now for a while. In any other civilized country, Narendra Modi would be tried as the murderous criminal which is what he is. I consider him as having committed crimes against humanity. Why have they done nothing about this if they are so concerned with minority rights.

The truth is, people are nothing but vote banks. So they can shed all the tears they want and heap vitriol on the perpetrators....but what are they really doing? What have they done? Nothing!

And, of course, we cannot forget Congress's role in the 1984 Sikh riots either.

These communal divides in India run deep and each side is just getting more and more polarized and entrenched.

Sad!

Jawahara

I agree with you totally. As a matter of fact, I had very high hopes for BJP actually. And in the initial stages, it did do well, clean hands, economically literate, pushing for reforms, making the right noises. The fact that it was religiously based, no problems, we cant have anything else in India.

As for the Congress, frankly, it is even venal than the BJP. At least the BJP has a fig leaf (if you can call it that!) of being ideologically driven. The Congress does not even have that fig leaf, it is simply a party of personalities, full of corrupt individuals, self serving leaders, devoid of any thought for the country. I talked about this a bit here, http://piquancy.blogspot.com/2007/08/rage-boys-rent-boys-lady-boys.html

but our sole hope is our legal system and our media. we can but hope that they will help.

this expose will backfire and prove to be a boon for Mr Modi afterall.Sorry to say this but Modi and his cronies are looking like heroes now

"People get the leadership they deserve...and those voting for Mr. Modi certainly prove that."

Absolutely. Thats why Gujarat is India's #1 state economically, responsible for over 20% of the nation's exports despite having just 3-4% of the population. Thats why Narendra bhai Modi was voted again and again as India's best chief minister on India Today magazine. Thats why Gujarat is reckoned to bwe the best state to do business in India.

Thank God for Narendrabhai Modi. We Gujaratis are lucky to have him as our leader. Today Gujarat, tomorrow India !

BD

The 'expose' was a masterstroke for the BJP. I had last calculated that there were 40 battleground seats where the BJP was in a difficult situation. A huge turnout by BJP voters was critical because muslim voters would anyway have turned up in large numbers to vote Modi out. This expose has hugely increased the motivation levels of traditional BJP voters. I will not be suprised if there is another sweep by the BJP. Foolish Tehelka!!! (oh! may be clever Tehelka...who knows)

http://desicritics.org/2007/07/21/002253.php

Modi bhai is India's best administrator.He has done wonders for Gujarat and its economy.

read this >>

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/228419.html

"it would be impossible not to acknowledge his role in making Gujarat an economic powerhouse.

Before he took over, Gujarat's pre-eminence was declining. Economic growth was on a downtrend, and from the greater than 15 per cent growth in gross state domestic product observed in the mid-nineties, it had fallen to nil in 2000-01. But it was not just economic growth -- industrial investment, infrastructure improvements, and so on, also appeared to be on a decline. This was due to a range of factors, not just related to state-level governance. But around the time the Modi government took over, a resurgence of the Gujarati economy began.

It is indeed difficult to assign responsibility for improvements or impairments on a single individual, even if he is the CM. But individuals can and do catalyse changes, and energetic politicians have been known to energise governance, even if it is limited to the economic front. And by most accounts Modi has been instrumental in Gujarat's success though he has been aided by many factors that just gathered momentum around the time he came in.

The Indian economy entered a high growth phase in the early 2000s, and Gujarat with its large industrial, financial, and infrastructure base, access to the sea, and a large skilled workforce, was highly suited to benefit from these opportunities. No doubt, states such as Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu and, to a lesser extent, Andhra had somewhat similar characteristics. But Gujarat has also been known to have a relatively efficient bureaucracy. The combination of base conditions, an efficient bureaucracy, and a CM willing to circumvent standard rules, regulations and procedures paid dividends rather quickly.

Within a year or so, Gujarat's GDP growth took off, to higher than national GDP growth. Investments took off, the speed with which approvals were received accelerated, the delays that typically characterise large investments reduced dramatically. And this was sustained for the following years. There are many stories in the informal circuit on how the government aggressively wooed the investors, circumvented procedures, pressured antagonistic pressure groups, to ensure rapid investments. This is by no means an easy task, ask the Bengal CM. And rightly or wrongly, it requires the bending of many rules and procedures.

But investment is only one part of the story. Many other successes have occurred in Gujarat, Modi didn't cause them, but he catalysed them through action or deliberate inaction.

Take agriculture. Around the time Modi came to power, BT cotton had already entered Gujarat. There are broadly two types of BT cotton. The legal and illegal. The legal variety is one that is sold by one international company that holds the international patent on the seed. The illegal one is sold by a multitude of smaller operators and was much cheaper (and reportedly of somewhat lower quality). The Gujarati farmer quickly took to the illegal BT cotton varieties. Cotton production shot up dramatically, and today it is hard to find a farmer in Gujarat who would use a traditional (or indeed a legal variety) if he can help it. The role of Gujarat government was that of a silent spectator. The farmer benefited, and so did the agro-economy of the state. But the laws were broken once again.

Then take the famed Narmada dam. Gujarat was better at building some part of the water distributive infrastructure than MP. Water flowed into this system and Modi made full use of this PR opportunity. But unlike some other governments, Gujarat pushed on. They fought and won the battle to get the height of the dam raised. Again the forces preceding Modi had an important role to play in this, but he made them stronger. And Modi became even more popular.

But Modi's energies were not only seen in activities where the vote-related PR value is high, but also those that electorates normally do not care much about.

The social sector is not something that is politically sexy. By all accounts, elections are not won or lost due to improvements in the social sector. But here as well the Modi government came up with a simple yet powerful innovation. Many women and children in Gujarat (as in other states) are highly under-nourished. The Central government adopted the mid-day meal scheme in primary schools and implemented it at the all-India level. But the mid-day meal typically consists of nutrients rich in carbohydrates and to a lesser extent proteins. A large part of the under-nutrition in children is however due to the lack of micronutrients in their diet, and women and children not in the school-going age do not benefit from the mid-day meal.

Consequently wheat flour supplied through the PDS is fortified with iron and folic acid. Moreover vitamins are mixed in edible oils (reportedly this costs merely three paise per kg of oil). As a result, reportedly, the number of women and children suffering from anaemia has reduced considerably in less than two years of the scheme's operation, and reduced night blindness and other malnutrition-related diseases.

Modi is not only ruthless and efficient; he is also hungry and ambitious."

I agree that this expose will generate a lot of sympathy for Modi, the same way as in the last election. Then too, many outside Gujarat tried to soil his image, leading to Gujarati resentment.

I don't think Raj who has commented above is an exception. I think many Gujaratis share his sentiments whether you like it or not.

hey i will give u guys another idea fr making gujarat super economic power. Sell all ur gals. Each gal can fetch 1 lakh. Even then it will be a great boost to ur economy.

Seriously when u have hatred fr 10% of ur population, its not a democracy its ideocracy. This just proves how low boot lickin guys u are. U are educated in only name, u deserve to be hanged as well.

also another idea to squash any lil muslim votes against u. Just goto all muslim houses in gujarat and threaten wit ur trishuls. Anyway police is wit u. They will only see tamasha. Threaten them wit lives , rape, slaughter, looting, destruction. Poor muslims they will be scared and u can sweep elections. So easy. Hail Modi, he really rocks. I mean today gujarat tomorrow u can do this to whole India. Chep boot licking fatherless bas**** u guys are. U guys wont even have peace after death and u will continue to burn fr ever. Anyone who supports this bootli**** is nuthin but a pathetic soul.

Chandra

yes, I agree. Most probably the BJP will sweep back to power. And very interesting analysis, mate, on your other board.

But no, I am not fussed with him coming back into power. That is neither here nor there. What I would like to make sure is that state sponsored pogroms like this do not happen. That's not going to get fixed in 2 months. Nothing is going to happen to Modi. But we have to keep on plugging away slowly and slowly. To make sure that criminal behaviour like this is not acceptable in India.

For crying out loud, its 60 years since independence and we are still having riots. But hope is there, look at the spate of judgements against the rioters, so I am talking 10 years if not more. And actually, I am hoping he does get elected. You see, an elected and serving politician is under greater stress and strain rather than an obscure opposition politician.

The fact that he is a good economic administrator is where his weakness lies and if people are smart, they will go after him via that route and from abroad.

Interesting days ahead for Shri Modi. I do hope he wins! :)

cheers

bd

truly gujaritis are a national shame.it seems the collector of amhedabad had asked all cable operators to block channels broadcasting the expose.Now all the channels have taken up this issue especially ndtv which has a very good track record in influencing the masses.It is natural for any hindu to get defensive at first but once he is continuously reminded of these horrors that are being committed in the name of hindutva he'll see through the fakeness of it all.A constant broadcast of this expose is required on all channels for any good to come out it.

yes i am also a hindu and i hate bjp for what it has done in gujarat and thehelka has done a great job to safegurad the democracy here in india by exposing these 'filthy' people.

by the way india is not just of hindus but muslims are also the sons of mother india and they gave every sacrifice from 1857 rebeliion to the recent kargil war for india.

no personal attacks please

diatribe edited

we need a law similar to the second ammendment of the USA to prevent such pogroms from occurring again

one more violation and you are out.

Conjecture edited. The rest has been left to show readers your mindset. ed

kashmir govt takes care of minorities? bloody bullshit. how many have remained anyway??? how really safe a muslim majority area in india is, right? kashmir??? of all the places? what have muslims done to us hindus? after 800 years of killings and rapes, you bastards (well, if the opinion writer can use this word, can't I?) have have the audacity to ask - what have we done?
govt support? what more govt support you want wen ALL govt policies are made for you? What more support you want? the support to kill hindus? even that support you have and nothing happens to you terrorists.
Are you trying to say that godhra was not a planned massacre?
The US killed very few in both afghan and iraq. strangely, you are not sad about the taliban killing people there and iraqis killing their own people. This proves you are a fanatic like all muslims.
To hell with gandhian principles of killing oneself and letting oneself be killed by muslims. We have had enough of your troublemongering. If we have to kill to defend ourselves, we will.
Your long term solution is to leave islam. Your short term solution is to return all the thousands of temples you destroyed and say sorry and come back to your natural religion.
That you call our defence expenditure destructive clearly shows you are a paki in disguise waiting to atatck india.
Your idea of a live debate is interesting. The only problem is: when it comes to debates, you come with the heavy baggage of quran which does not allow you guys to debate. End of debate because allah has said so and so.
That you find "poor" gujarat muslims as the only "affected" people in india is another proof that you are a dangerous fanatic.
The point is that the world has already known your true face but you are still debating the fact that your religion is the cause of most ills.
It doesn't appear that you have any shame for the dreadful killings you do on a regular basis but are intent on getting a few people who retaliated ONCE hanged.
If you keep killing us like godhra, the day is not far when hundreds of gujarats may actually happen.
The reason is that you are a puppet to a foreign arabic ideology of hatred based on insignificant things.
I therefore dismiss you as a muslim fanatic (in fact the two are almost the same).
actually, the osamas are the true muslims who foow islamic law to the letter. If you think you are a muslim and don't support his jehadist ideas, yo need to debate with him first.
Hindu fanaticism, although rare, does not harm any one. It involves around vegetarian food, simplicity, acceptance of different ideas and culture (which you will not appreciate). This is what hindu fanaticism is.
If the 20% of population causes harm, we have a right to hate them. Hating 10% (as you say) cannot be boot licking except if the boots are of the country.
Unlike mulsims, common hindus don't carry weapons like trishuls and it is illegal also.
Why don't you go to hindu houses in muslim areas (oh-they're already threatened). anyway, what about the threat to hindus in muslim countries?
fatherless? well, since most of you have 4 mothers and 1 father, i wonder if you're too keen on this.
See, you have a problem with our simple rituals like cremation also - ad you claim you are not a muslim fanatic?
I think according to your definition, most of gujarat is pathetic and about half of India is. Then go to pakistan na. That was made for people like you only.

edited

Thank you for your comments, Bharat and Bong Buster

I hate violence, irrespective of who is responsible for it. But it sounds like Muslims for centuries have sowed nothing but HATE & VIOLENCE and now they are reaping what they sowed.

They have problems in KASHMIR, CHECHNIYA, CHINA, ISRAEL, IRAN, IRAQ, KURDISTAN, Pakistan, AFRICA, INDONESIA, UK, FRANCE, BURMA, Problems with the WEST..in short they are fighting with everyone everywhere.

Something is seriously wrong with this religion. Rich with natural resources yet the people are very poor and only busy killing themselves and people of every other religions/sects.

As long as we have blind and biased people like yourself (Mr Dasgupta)that are going to defend the bad muslims at any cost, there will always be fanatics in other religions trying to set things right their way.

YOU ARE THE ONE'S RESPONSIBLE FOR GUJRAT POGORAM and many more to come unless you change your mean minded ways.

I for one condemn all these people, not just Hindus. The taliban and Jihadis are animals too.

edited

The fact there might be something wrong with Islam as a religion is neither here nor there. Sure there are problems with it. I'll give you that.

But those people you talk about were marauders and barbarians and dictatorial kings. Horrible as they were they never claimed to be anything else.

They were not elected to power in a democratic state. That is the point for me in Gujarat. The democratically elected leader of a state represents the whole state and its inhabitants (not just people of his or her religion). There is an inherent relationship of trust there. And Mr. Modi, by being a murderous criminal (no matter how amazing his administrative powers) has betrayed their trust. And that is a tragedy.

Btw, since Muslim violence illustrates that religion as being evil and whatever, does Hindu violence in Gujarat (and the crowing afterwards) show the same thing about Hinduism?

And what about the historical treatment of Dalits? What does that show?

I am confused... just because al quaeda exists, it's OK to rape, hack and burn muslims? what kind of fucked up logic is that? by the same token, can we punish you mr "pogorom" for all the evils of the hindus... you know, shiv sena has done some crappy stuff, so I guess we need to punish you for it, nah? or are you already a member??

Modi supporters tout that modi is a great administrator and cite economic dynamism in gujarat as evidence
then how come such an efficient administrator did not do anything to stop the riots and seems to have actively encouraged them ?

Simple, null. Because according to these nutjobs doing that *was* also a hallmark of his being a great administrator. And a great economist. Think of the spike in kerosene and ammunition demand during that time. Truly, Sri Modi is a great and wonderful administrator and a genius economist.

Modi is the best administrator in the country, make no mistake.Modi is also a democratically elected leader. He does what his people want him to do. If that means standing aside and letting the people have their revenge after the pakis burnt alive 57 hindu women and children, so be it. Modi is only our representative. He does what we want him to do. We are so lucky to have him as our leader.

Let me make this very clear. People of Gujarat, and a large section of the people of India have zero sympathy for sympathisers of Pakistan. We have nothing but hatred for those who burst crackers and celebrate whenever Pakistan beats India at cricket. We prefer such elements dead rather than alive.

What is the percentage of Gujjus in the Indian defense forces? They should make service in the army compulsory for every individual .

Raj, it is greedy selfish gujjus like you that have given offcial status to bangladeshi illegals

Kela...percentage of Gujjus in the Army is negligible contribute to the country by being bread winners of the nation. We have just 3.5% of India's population but contribute over 20% of the nation's exports. We express our patriotism in different ways. Killing sympathisers of Pakistan who live in India is only one way of demonstrating our patriotism towards our country.

"Raj, it is greedy selfish gujjus like you that have given offcial status to bangladeshi illegals"

Excuse me !! Are you nuts ? There are no B'deshis in Gujarat. It is well known that B'deshis are given a free entry by the commies of West Bnegal.

Raj ,patriot is the wrong word, try jingoist ,extremist,bigot

#37 so when your leaders were referring to those murdered as " bahar se aya " what did they mean ?

I used to have a Gujarati room mate 15 years ago and he had expressed the same sentiments as Raj here.

And post-Godhra, I was in Gandhinagar and actually met Narendra Modi, and have to say that he is an admired figure out there, especially among the younger generation (mostly Hindus).

Nope. We are patriots. Getting rid of pak supporters is patriotism.

Gujjus are the best people to get along with.Not like Bengalis who are always full of hot gas and nothing else.Look at the Hindus in Bangladesh.Now WB is slowly being taken over by the muslims from Bangladesh.All these creatures are capable of are holding candle light rallies for every non-issues.Gujjus are practical people and they know that their way of life is doomed if they donot take on the muslims head.That's exactly what they did.

Yup, real patriots always rape and murder. it's how they show their nobility. and they're always against pak supporters: like the pathan brothers and gandhi, people who've done more for the indian nation at home and abroad than they ever have or ever will.

The very basis of Hinduism is peace and motherly love for all other religions. These men in Gujarat are black sheep in white paint, and now the paint is coming off. Thanks to Tehelka.They first used Gandhi, now they used their religious organisations, to perpetrate heinous crimes.Shame on them and shame on their followers.Hinduism is not like this, it is about love, tolerance and forbearance.When things come to pass where such demoniac people take the cover of Hinduism andperform ahimsa,then the time has come to destroy them too.

I'm ashamed about the Gujarat massacre. All I can say is religion sucks. I cannot believe people are capable of such hatred. I felt like puking when I saw the tehelka videos. See this documentary Massacres is India
There is a 4/5 year old Muslim boy who was interviewed (a shorter clip here), everyone should be made to watch this. Hate only breeds more hate. And there is no better motivator than religion.

beady:

here is an excerpt from another columnist:

In reality, Gujarat is a misgoverned state with unbalanced growth and warped development in which 74.3 per cent of women and 46.3 per cent of children are anaemic. Gujarat's per capita debt exceeds the ratio for UP and Bihar. Agrarian distress has driven more than 500 Gujarat farmers to suicide over four years. Sweetheart deals for business groups have sent the prices of basic services and inputs rocketing. Despite high tariffs like Rs5.32 a unit, the power supply situation is pathetic. Gujarat continues to attract industrial investment not because of its leaders' dynamism or policies but because of a historical accident - business groups invested there early on, and there's a big petrochemicals cluster around Baroda.

As the official Human Development Report (2004) points out, "Gujarat has reached only 48 per cent of the goals set for human development". It lags behind thanks to "several distortions in (its) growth path", including agricultural stagnation. Its gains in literacy, education, health, nutrition and social security are much lower than its GDP growth. The recent "deceleration in (its) achievements" is cause for "serious concern." Gujarat's human development and gender empowerment ranks fell during the 1990s. Although it's No 4 among Indian states in per capita income (down from No 2), it has fallen to No 6 in education, No 9 in health and No 12 in participation. Gujarat is severely patriarchal. Its sex ratio is an abysmal 487:1000 in the 0-4 age-group and 571 in the 5-9 group (national averages, 515 and 632, respectively). Its health indices have dropped relative to other states and are barely higher than that of Orissa. In social sector spending (as a proportion of total expenditure), Gujarat ranks a lowly 19 among India's 21 major states.

Those who cheered " hail Hitler ' blindly trusted him as their saviour had to pay a high
price through death and blood. In a mass hysteria, they are naturally blinded toward the
reality of fire and horror ahead of them. Anybody
dare to use hatred of another religion or political party and use evil methods will sow the
weeds of terror, and the perpetrators will have a
bumper harvest of evil because history tells it
very openly.

t,

to be very blunt, Modi is ok as a CM. In fact better than others. He has personally never been associated with corruption and personally he is clean.

Managing Indian states is not a joke even in the best of times, and in fairness, he has done quite a lot to attract investment, cut red tape, improve infrastructure, etc.

Most of the issues that you mention are fairly structural issues. Anaemia is a very complex problem, ranging from dietary problems to vegetarianism to lack of water for fruit (which is more water intensive), etc. etc., increased debt is not a problem, what is a problem is debt coverage ratio's (whether or not you can afford it); the farmer's suicide is unfortunately out of Modi's hands, quite a lot of the farm prices are set centrally and farmer suicides reasons are to be laid at the feet of central government and american/european politicians/farmers rather than Modi, power supply (SNORT!, its horrible everywhere) and again there is a huge central - state responsibility issue there, and so on and so forth. As for the clustering effect, I disagree. Clustering is an outmoded idea and while politicians love it, clusters happen despite politicians rather than because of them.
But Modi's government has improved infrasturucture, water and other bits and bobs, so its good.

Plus you have to remember one major thing, most of the bulk commodity exports and imports of India comes through the sea. Most other states were left sucking the tit of labour unions and that made the ports a gigantic drug running, criminal and dead place. The successive Gujarat governments have improved the ports dramatically and the feeder links. WHich means, that business groups will flock to that area rather than say Mumbai or any other port down the western side. Less said about the eastern side, the better.

So yes, on balance, he is ok. As for the rest of the issues, nah, not worried, those are again structural very long term issues and are debatable.

But he violated the first commandment of a secular state leader, you will protect all citizens.

Hitler was a socialist.
Nazi = NationaleZocialisteArbeiterPartie = National SOCIALIST WORKERS Party

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility and the power of individual effort over collectivism.

I'm a non-religious atheist, but I certainly support Modi as a more ethical and competent political leader, as compared to the crooked and corrupt Congress Party. Modi is simply a victim of a lying campaign by the Congress and the rest of the Left.

Let's look at the last "exposee" that Tehelka did. After the Volker Report implicated Congress Foreign Minister Natwar Singh in the oil-for-food scam with Iraq, Tehelka conveniently announced a "sting" against mainly BJP MPs, with a couple of token Congress MPs thrown in for so-called "impartiality". The Tehelka "exposee" was just a scam to try and deflect pressure from the Congress Party and their empire of graft.

Right now the Congress is under pressure from the Left and unable to deliver on the nuclear deal, so all the tools are being pulled out -- like Tehelka -- to help the Congress firm up its electoral prospects.

It's through games like this that N-Deal supporters on both sides of the ocean hope to get the deal signed, sealed and delivered.

I've supported the N-Deal myself in the past, but not by resorting to this type of double-dealing deception.

sanjay said: I'm a non-religious atheist, but I certainly support Modi as a more ethical and competent political leader

ETHICAL? OMG! you are seriously the most deluded and morally bankrupt person I have ever had chance to come across. it's nice to know that on top of everything else I don't like about you, that you actually support genocide thru pogroms.

disgusting.

Sanjay,

The rest of this article, and commentary is fascinating, to say the least, if not horrific in what it says about the internal divisions in the Union of India and the rest of the sub-continent.

But this:

"Hitler was a socialist.
Nazi = NationaleZocialisteArbeiterPartie = National SOCIALIST WORKERS Party"

is just plain wrong.

Get your history straight. the NAB - Nazionalarbeiters Bund, and the NSDAP Nazionalsocialist Arbeiterspartei, were both völkish - THAT IS RACIST - organizations from the outset. Hitler joined the second group as a spy for the German Army - and found that it was far more effective to be a leader than a spy. The NSDAP spoke his language and he spoke theirs.

Was he a socialist? Who knows? Who cares? He had the "workers" - the Brownshirts, who were the most like the Socialists - in his party executed in 1934. He followed a practical policy of national reconstruction for Germany, and a policy of gradual extermination of minorities for the non-Aryans in his country.

I tried...

the tehelka expose is a Modi scam.Faced with infighting within the party this was Modi's last grasp effort at garnering public support and sympathy.Modi and bjp have proved to be more corrupt than the congress which will probably be sweeping the polls under the able leadership of sankersingh vaghela

Ruvy, I'm afraid it's you who's wrong. Socialist collectivism certainly increases the likelihood of "going vokkish" -- that's what collectivism is all about. Once this lowest-common-denominator collective decides to target the "elite" minority, then there's no stopping them.

I again repeat -- Hitler was a socialist. Look at the man's own quotations. Nazism is National Socialism.

Smallsquirrel: You're lying again. I don't support genocide through pogroms, I'm saying that Modi wasn't to blame for what happened. I don't see you blaming the Gandhi family for the 1984 riots. The fact is that Modi did not cause the riots, and his appeals to the Centre for more security personnel were turned down -- they wanted the riots to proceed, to aggravate Modi's predicament.

sanjay, you are well and truly stupid. hitler was not a friggin socialist. any person who has read mein kampf knows it. it was simply a name meant to invoke nationalist pride. please read something, anything and learn something before spouting off like a jackass. Ruvy does know what he is talking about.

Look at wikipedia, for instance, cause I guess that is probably your reading level:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party

Unlike some other party members, Hitler was less interested in the "socialist" aspect of "national socialism". Himself of provincial lower-middle-class origins, he disliked the mass working class of the big cities, and had no sympathy with the notions of attacking private property or the business class (which some early Nazis espoused). For Hitler the twin goals of the party were always German nationalist expansionism and anti-Semitism.

and Modi is a murderer. plain, clear and simple. seems you like murderers.

The elite minority can jerk off to porno

smallquirrel lied:
"hitler was not a friggin socialist. any person who has read mein kampf knows it. it was simply a name meant to invoke nationalist pride. "

Uhh, since when does the word "socialism" imply national pride? Look at our own Indian Leftists who constantly attack "nationalism/ultra-nationalism/jingoism"

Your arguments make no sense. As for wikipedia, Leftists have a lot of free time to edit it and impose their views, while the rest of us have to work for a living.

Nazism = National Socialism

Sorry to have to educate you on that, my dear nouveau-expert. Uhh, how old are you again??

just because you disagree with me doesn't mean I lied. But I guess that lesson doesn't come till seventh standard, right?

Well....
I see our pseudo-secular media have planted enough seeds on all unassuming minds and people speak gujarat 'riots' as massacre..programs.... etc what not words.
Just some simple questions and facts to you
1) In Gujarat Riots around 750 muslims and 250 Hindus dies.HINDUS ALSO DIED...HOW?
2) Why these soo called fanatics in India are not targetting Sikhs,Christians, Jains, Parsis .Is there a program by these 'Hindu' parties in India against these other religions...ever?? EVERRRRRRR?? Why only against MUSLIMS (who call Hindus kafirs and see Hindus in comtempt).

3) From 1920, these Muslims are pain in wrong place. Just google "Sudhi Movement", "Kilafat Movement" you will get tears equally.

3b) They are no paper minority. They know how to group them selves and kill Hindus in riots.I come from Hyderaabd and I know communla riots there very well. When HINDU_MUSLIM riots start always....ALWAYS number of Hindu die are more?
Majority???

4)a) These people never sing national song (vandemataram), call Hindus kafirs,commit lot of communal voilence , support other muslim nation when they win cricket match, and if u dig history or recent history what not they have done. See Dwaraka temple or some other temples they looted, killed and raped Hindus.

b) What position Muslims gave Hindus in countries like Pakisthan, Malayasia, Indonesaia.Comparing that (sorry we cant compare that at all) we gave LOT, LOT better status. But psedo secular media always make us feel guilty. Demand us to do more. Show accepting muslims is a FASHION.OK...we will do that. But what can we do when Hindus are dying more.

5) I AM NOT SUPPORTING KILLING.But just understand the mentality of COMMAN MAN in all these developments.WHY NOT THIS SECULAR GOVT IS NOT ADDRESSING THIS. Go into the mind and read his mind.

6)Dec 7th,8th, 9th after the Babri Demolotion....what happened.

I REQUEST ALL TO OPEN EYES AND SEE REALITY INSTEAD OF MEEKING SURENDERING TO WHAT MEDIA 'ASKS US TO WATCH'.

Ss, no, Sanjay is extremely ethical, morally upright and highly intelligent. Just as Hitler was a socialist and Sanjay certainly knows more about him than do you or Ruvy. How dare you?

You should be ashamed of yourself for contradicting him. We should all settle at his feet and just drink in the pearls of wisdom that drop unceasingly from his mouth...and try to ignore the stench that emanates from them.

Remember, a prophet is never recognized in his lifetime. But in Sanjay's case we can make an exception,can't we?

jawahara... am prostrating myself right this minute :P

razorMirage, is it fun in there in your statistics creation fun-house and hate factory? How many Hindus died in Gujarat? 58. Not 250.
Considering that Muslims are a minority in India the fact that their death toll during riots is much higher should tell you something. More Muslims die as a percentage during riots than Hindus. Not just percentage wise but numbers wise.

If it doesn't ring true, read this excerpt from Time Magazine in 2003. This is not the only place where these stats can be found, however, so they are corroborated and are backed up (by official police records no less) versus your cooked up facts:


"India's Muslims are also far more likely than Hindus to be victims of violent attacks. In all the communal riots since independence, official police records reveal that three-quarters of the lives lost and properties destroyed were Muslim, a figure that climbed to 85% during last year's riots in Gujarat. The Gujarat authorities even went so far as to price Muslim lives below those of Hindus, offering $2,050 in state compensation for Muslims killed but double that for the riots' 58 Hindu victims."

How many Muslims do you personally know? And I don't mean the Doordarshan image of happy Hindus and Muslims celebrating Eid and Diwali kind of crap. I would guess 0.

Since you don't know any I am not sure how you can credibly level the charges that you have. Yes, there are Indian muslims who support Pakistan during cricket matches or who do not sing the national anthem, etc. Last time I checked these were not crimes punishable by a horrific death by a mob.

Do you know if the people that were killed were in fact, part of the Pakistan supporting crowd? Does the fact that India is a democracy that allows its citizens some freedom of expression, however questionable, mean anything to you? Btw, freedom of expression does not extend to rape, murder and pillaging.

Should I, on the basis of your weird, hate-ridden tirade assume that *all* Hindus are hate-filled, communalist, trishul-toting asses? And therefore it is justifiable to kill them? I would be a bigoted idiot if I believed that.

There are uneducated, poor people who can be forgiven if they are bigots because they have no access to the larger world. I find it unforgiveable and sad that some educated people are even worse than those uneducated folks.

Sad!

Narendrabhai will win the elections and people like Jawahara can continue parading their fucked up stats

Gujrati, thanks for illustrating the truth about yourself to others on here...without my having to do anything. Kudos!

How many Hindus died in Gujarat? 58. Not 250.

You are incorrect. 59 Hindus died in just the Godhara incident itself. In the ensuing riots about one third of those who died were Hindus.

Considering that Muslims are a minority in India the fact that their death toll during riots is much higher should tell you something

That is incorrect way of interpreting things. Your measure of counting deaths can only be used when people are living in peace.

When people are killed in wars/battles/Pogroms/massacres e.t.c in case of clashes between two groups we measure the deaths on one side to be proportional to the amount of damage inflicted by the other side. Thus assuming that every individual is capable of inflicting equal damage (owing to his personal capacity) Muslims murdered more Hindus(average percentage wise) that Hindus murdered Muslims. Why??...Because by comparing their population percentage which is about 10%, their contribution to damage is much bigger they can otherwise inflict on other party.

There are two incidents here. The Godhra incident which is not part of the riots and the riots themselves.

If you read the quote carefully you will see the writer clearly refers to the riots/pogrom itself.

Also, I have no idea what this means: "When people are killed in wars/battles/Pogroms/massacres etc. in case of clashes between two groups percentage which is about 10%, their contribution to damage is much bigger they can otherwise inflict on other party..."

Anyone want to take a crack at it?

I also liked: "Your measure of counting deaths can only be used when people are living in peace."

Since the talking about death was with regard to riots and other unpeaceful activities, I have no idea what you meant by that statement.

Jawahara...
I am referring to riots only and in riots around 250 died. NOW TELL ME HOW THEY DIED.
Small proof:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence
(I can give you other proofs also but for now this shd suffice , I guess).
NOW TELL ME HOW THEY DIED??

I dont know how did you say this
"More Muslims die as a percentage during riots than Hindus. Not just percentage wise but numbers wise." It is too generic and easily can be dismissed as your personal point.

Well..Time magazine...ha..ha..boss I live in America and know this media. Deception is their breakfast here. Ok this is the same media who told WMD 'found' in Irag..right? Where are they.
Pls dont quote or refere American Main Stream Media...atleast in blogs.
I have lot of Muslim friends.They are all good personally. But when in mob they act differently.Offcourse, they are instigated by some local leader, imam etc..that I will later on some other forum.


"Yes, there are Indian muslims who support Pakistan during cricket matches or who do not sing the national anthem, etc. Last time I checked these were not crimes punishable by a horrific death by a mob"

I am refering to all these because common man's anger come with all these things. Never a Muslim leader say I love India and I give my blood, life for India. Why can't do it? Atleast in these times they can do it right? No. They will never do it. Why? Because they are looked upon as 'chuteye' and frown upon.

You dint answer why there are clashes btw Hindus and Muslims. Because Muslims are always troble makers.
Muslim talking about "freedom of expression"...OXYMORON for me.

Mind you, you are filled with all hate. I just pointed the physche of Indian Hindu and what Muslims go generally.
You are attacking me and my sacred religion.
Now understand who is sick.

razor... you are one warped dude. warped, racist and full of ridiculous hate. you say you have muslim frineds but I suppose that means you talked to one once and proclaimed yourself a reasonable person.

american mainstream media does have it's place. but I guess someone as hatefilled as you only reads underground pro-genocide rags.

do us all a favor and go join some commune in the mountains.

smallsquirrel...
have to cared to read my comments and respond to that?
No.
Instead, you are attacking me and my personality.
What is soo racist in my comments? I am daring you to point out.
You seem to be a loser and lost points to reply my comments.

How many Muslims died? How many Hindus died?

Do we keep a score on how many died and then see who is to be blamed more?

Some of us do not even believe the number of 250 and 750 to be right.

They are completely manipulated by the government of Gujarat headed by Mr. Modi.

What is important out of Tehelka expose is not if more Muslims died or not.

It is about - whether an administration was involved or not. Modi and his government could have stopped the riots. They did not. They participated in it and helped in killing Muslims.

That is the crux of the matter.

well said:

It is about - whether an administration was involved or not. Modi and his government could have stopped the riots. They did not. They participated in it and helped in killing Muslims.

First of all, the figures used by Time Magazine were official police stats from India. I had clearly stated that in my post because I knew that one of you guys would come up with the same tired, cooked-up stats comment.

As far as anything else goes, you are right, your post certainly does prove that you are a peace-loving, non-hate filled saint who does not generalize about people.

And I am sure mine do prove beyond a doubt that I am a hate-filled bigot.

Whatever!

Sujai, I could not agree more.

Sujai wrote:
"Some of us do not even believe the number of 250 and 750 to be right. They are completely manipulated by the government of Gujarat headed by Mr. Modi"

Ohhh, this from a guy who put up a chart alleging a correlation between opposition to medical school quotas and support for Hitler! Yeah, you have the most credibility! :P
You're a joke, man -- a bad one.

For your information the 750-250 number comes from the Central govt, which is run by the Congress Party, and not by the BJP.

specially for a certain "self-confessing non religious know-all atheist" who whines constantly over every thing

;)

now that the icon is out of the way ...forget numbers...stop deflecting!

reply to sujai or #72:

There is always a dirty political mind behind blood-shed happening any-where in the world today!!!

Every one knows who the creators of Talibans are.

Coming to the Indian Context - creating hatred based on caste or religion is very easy in a country like India. It's just not the politicians but our neighbors too who are dreaming of disintegrating India on the same line.

From early 90's itself, from when I have started noticing politics, the dangerous polarization of Indian voters based on caste and religion started. Before that since Congress unilaterally enjoyed the power for long there was no dearth of votes.

One group became [pseudo] secular and the other Hindutva Party !!!

The problem in today's politics is that there are too many parties and every party is aiming on religious or caste angle to build their traditional vote bank for long. Candidates are also selected on the same line.

Both sides want to have the issue burning to have their traditional vote-bank intact.

All the parties are winner in the race except the common people of India.

Unless until elections are fought only on the standard issues related to common people, we will have these problems.

We have to wait till the voters reject candidates who fight elections on these lines...

The brighter side of all this is that the parties are now mixing development too into their agenda and hope our voters force them to have this on top of their list...

A.K.Rathor..
Of all the bloggers I am contradicting I cant more than accept with you.
I hate religion politics.Using it as their own and for appeasement.
I hate (who am I, we all shd) caste politics.

When do you think our Indian voters get this maturity?

The two major poles, Congress and BJP are still selling their good image based on just few faces which will vanish in next 10 years.

At the same time common literate people are not joining politics to take their posiiton.

I'm assuming that we are going to have a political void in next 10 years and new youth parties who are logically{not politically] correct wil take over...

Its just Hope but lets see ...

Oh, good grief. At the end of everything, it is only points 71 and 72 that make sense.

13 people convicted in Bilkis Bano rape case. (Godhra Riots)
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/13-people-convicted-in-bilkis-banu-rape-case/56832-3.html

Amit,

Thanks for this welcome news about some communalist thugs getting their just desserts...about fishing time!

It is only either Hindus or moslems or both that pay the price for pseudo secular perfidy. I consider them more guilty than both Hindus and moslems combined. I think justice will be served only when these pseudo secular jehadis are made to pay the price with their own blood and tears. They add fuel to the fire before riots and after riots and only people who seem to ideologically profit from communal clashes. If Modi is listening, we need riots between hindus and pseudo secularists, moslems and pseudo secularists - that will stop all riots for ever!

It is only either Hindus or moslems or both that pay the price for pseudo secular perfidy. I consider them more guilty than both Hindus and moslems combined. I think justice will be served only when these pseudo secular jehadis are made to pay the price with their own blood and tears. They add fuel to the fire before riots and after riots and only people who seem to ideologically profit from communal clashes. If Modi is listening, we need riots between hindus and pseudo secularists, moslems and pseudo secularists - that will stop all riots for ever!

Kerty wrote:

""It is only either Hindus or moslems or both that pay the price for pseudo secular perfidy. I consider them more guilty than both Hindus and moslems combined""

What about the non-pseudo ie. real secularists? Do they contribute to communal conflict? (riot does not quite capture what happens as it implies that these conflicts happen spontaneously)

CS..

Riots occur over some local events that are not planned. But combustible ground is already prepared by pseudo secularists by pouring kerosine all over it - all it takes to make it go up in flames is either side dropping a lit match stick - than all media focus gets bog down about who started the fire, what started the fire, what did police did or did not do, how did one side carried out barbarism and punishing it as a matter of justice. Those who prepared the ground come out of the woods as outraged champions of harmony, social justice, human rights, secularism. They have played this game so many times it is no longer a novelty in India. That is why their phony outrage falls on deaf ears. Every time they bring in riots, Modi wins a landslide. Poetic justice. But real justice will be done when pseudo secularists are made to pay by their own blood and tears. India needs that kind of politics to put an end to riots.

Kerty:

"Every time they bring in riots, Modi wins a landslide."

Yes, I suppose that's why the NDA slid down the landslide during the last central elections. The reasons Modi was elected are complex and the self-righteous hypocricial hysteria of the Congress did not help. Now he has to govern and cannot afford another riot that Congress will try to instigate to dislodge him....sorry, where exactly do the secularists fit in here?

Dr.bd's first paragrsph is very interesting. He calls these people whoever they are all sort of degrading things. Above all he calls them criminals and murderers. Perhaps they are. I am not sure why he is not informing police and have them lay charges. He is passing judgement on them. People in democratic country are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. He is undoubtedly spreading hatred. This is not the way to peace and harmony. May be he does not want to spread peace and harmony

I think bd is a dangerous man. By chance if he manages to aquire power, he will somehow usurp the authority of police and courts and brand these people criminals because he knows they are. Alternatively he is likely to hire hit men to do away with these undesirable people. And now that Modi has been reelected entire Gujarat will be undesirable. Watch out. It can turn into a genocide.

Gandhi said eye for an eye makes both people blind. Can one fight hatred with hatred?
In my opinion your message is counter productive. Please spread the message of love, peace and harmony. You are disturbing a hell of lot of shit. If it does spill, I hope it will not make innocent people dirty.