NEWS

Who Will Listen to Para's Silent Screams?

October 14, 2007
B Shantanu

I read about this shameful and horrifying rape in Tehelka's recent issue and it filled me with rage and a deep sense of frustration - rage at what happened and the indifference of police authorities and frustration that these kind of crimes are still being seen through the prism of caste. Here is a shocking excerpt of what happened to Para Devi (from Tehelka):

"On June 23, Para, a Dalit daily wage labourer from Santoshpura, left home for work at 8am with her husband, Ranglal.

Feeling unwell during the day, she set out for the hospital; on the way, her neighbour Kalu Ram offered her a ride in his car. Two other men, Harsahai and Kajod, were in the same car and three others, Sohan Lal, Indraraj and Jagdish, were later picked up.

For the next three days, the six men drove Para from village to village, raping her in turn. When she protested, they beat her; when she asked for water, they gave her country liquor mixed with Limca. She was made to urinate in the car and given no food.

On June 26, Para was dropped, wounded, torn, only half-conscious, at the Phagi bus stand with Rs 20 and a threat not to open her mouth or her family would be killed. When her husband tried to lodge an FIR, he was turned away..." 

What happened to Para was not (just) a crime against a Dalit women - it was a crime against a helpless woman, it was a crime against humanity, it was a murder of values that we cherish. Sadly the story has been published under "Dalit Window" in Tehelka)

All the talk of women empowerment comes to naught in the face of such incidents and no amount of condemnation will ever heal Para's wounds.

What will help is a steely desire to bring the culprits to book - and make an example of them.

What I also find very disturbing is the "silence" of the mainstream media, the political parties and the NGOs on this issue.

But then why should anyone bother?

Para comes from a remote village in Rajasthan, which most of us would have never heard about. She is poor, illiterate and unemployed.

To a glamour-obsessed media, she has zero value and offers no sound bites.

To the vote-obsessed political parties, she represents nothing - except the insignificant votes of 20 Bairwa families.

To the publicity-obsessed NGOs, she is not a good opportunity since the Women's Commission seems to have got there first.

The Women's Commission is probably the only one that comes out of this cesspool with some credit (in as much as it intervened to get the police to register an FIR).

But is it not ironic that in a state with a woman as Chief Minister, the women had to organise a "dharna" to be heard?

My head hangs in shame today. 

Until about three years ago, B Shantanu was like any normal, middle-class Indian - long on debate/discussion and short on action. Something happened two years ago that changed all that for him. He still has to work, eat and sleep like most of us but for the past three years, he has been trying very hard to change a few things. A lot of that effort comes through his writings http://satyameva-jayate.org/ but the pen only goes so far. Someday, he hopes to be able to do a lot more to bring about fundamental and lasting change. To read more of what he writes on, please visit http://satyameva-jayate.org/
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#1
Sumanth
October 14, 2007
07:40 AM

Where is NCW? Where is SCW?

Are they busy doing monetary settlements for rich high profile waring couples?

In many states with male Chief Ministers, male rape victims do not get justice. Gangs of women who lure and rape and beat minor boys are not even arrested.

So, a chief minister being a woman or man has no impact on law enforcement system.

#2
temporal
URL
October 14, 2007
11:29 AM

sumanth:

playing your tunnel-visioned game here also?

shame!

#3
smallsquirrel
October 14, 2007
12:00 PM

sumanth... you said Gangs of women who lure and rape and beat minor boys are not even arrested.

YOU FIND ME ONE INSTANCE OF THIS... one instance of a "gang of women luring, raping and beating minor boys.." you just make shit up and don't even realise how full of bullshit propaganda you really are.

on top of that, this is a different subject, sumanth... stop effing hijacking topics for your own purposes. you are one shameless, sorry dude.

#4
Sumanth
October 14, 2007
12:35 PM

When female teachers, who rape minor boys are shameless, then why should not I?

When female teachers who brutally assault and parade children naked in the school premises are shameless, then why should not I?

Temporal, do not teach me what is tunnel vision.

Smallsquirrel: Are not you the same person who claimed that a person is raped in every 5 seconds in US (which added upto 252 million rapes in US in 40 years)? First realise how full bullshit propaganda you reall are and then talk to others.

The number of pseudo-libertarian jokers is increasing in India.

#5
smallsquirrel
October 14, 2007
12:39 PM

sumanth... sorry, it's one per minute. I was thinking of worldwide stats...

anyway, your math is shite...

"According to a study conducted by the National Victim Center, 1.3 women (age 18 and over) in the United States are forcibly raped each minute. That translates to 78 per hour, 1,871 per day, or 683,000 per year"

http://www.familiesincrisis.net/sexual_assault_statistics.html

so there you go... now you answer my question.
you can't because YOU LIED.

#6
Sumanth
October 14, 2007
12:40 PM

This is just one rare case of luring and rape of a minor boy by 45 year old Indian woman.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1169477.cms

The journalist romanticises the rape.

The female predators are increasing in India.

#7
smallsquirrel
October 14, 2007
12:43 PM

not one incident....WHERE ARE THE *GANGS* OF WOMEN SUMANTH... stick by your words... I want to see this...

you are a liar.

#8
Sumanth
October 14, 2007
12:43 PM

Smallsquirrel,

It is not just you alone, millions of feminists are lying every minute in the world and are publishing false data and telling half truths.

Half of the country's population is forced to suppress the emotions and stop crying by their mothers, and no one ever questioned these terrible attrocities on boys.

#9
smallsquirrel
October 14, 2007
12:51 PM

no sumanth, don't turn this around... stick by your words... prove you are not a liar

PROVE YOU ARE NOT A LIAR. Right here, right now... prove it... prove all that shit you talk once and for all... we're all waiting to see the GANGS OF WOMEN LURING AND RAPING MEN... come on sumanth...

you can't do it.
otherwise you're just like the little boy on the playground who can only say "I know you are but what am I?"

we're waiting.

#10
smallsquirrel
October 14, 2007
12:54 PM

by the way, just for the official record, I never said there were not one-off incidents (like the one you gave the link about), because I know very well that there are. and it's sad. and those women should be jailed for the maximum.

what I want proof of is the gangs of women you now speak of.

#11
Sumanth
October 14, 2007
12:58 PM

Smallsquirrel,

I am a liar. I am a liar.

Go and do what you want to do.

If it makes you feel happy, then I accept.

I have mastered the feminine and I know what tolerance is.

I being a liar, does not prove that feminists are not liars or hypocrites.

I am a liar, I am having double standards and I am a treacherous person. Okay. If it makes you feel victorious.....

That does not prove that there are no female rapists and there are no female abusers. Heard of rapist Lina Sinha? Google it....

I can throw thousands data points on any issue.

#12
Sumanth
October 14, 2007
01:00 PM

Smallsquirrel,

Talk about equality. Do not say,"should be punished" as you know very well that "females often get least punishment or no punishments for the same crimes compared to men."

#13
Aaman
URL
October 14, 2007
01:02 PM

OK - end this tangent - anyone wants to talk about the lack of legal options for the underprivileged is welcome to do so.

#14
Sumanth
October 14, 2007
01:07 PM

Smallsquirrel,

How many cases do you want?

Female Teacher Parades boys nude in the School Premises

She never punished. At most she gets suspended and joins another school to abuse some more boys.
53% of Indian children are abused. No one talks about it. Its the big taboo to talk about child abuse.

Indian society never punished any criminal woman in last 5000 years starting from Ramayana and Mahabharata.

Unlike Para(with my full respect to her), children are voiceless, they can not sit in hunger strikes demanding justice.

#15
smallsquirrel
October 14, 2007
01:10 PM

yes back to the main topic... I think this is incredibly sad, but also not surprising. in the US one of my closest friends runs a domestic violence shelter and I worked as a rape crisis counselor in my free time for a while. I saw very little justice happening in the US, especially for poor women. so it is not surprising that poor women here face larger challenges.

while I am not surprised that the political parties have remained silent, I am kinda shocked that not one NGO has stepped up.

terribly, terribly sad.

#16
temporal
URL
October 14, 2007
01:13 PM

thank you sumanth for this long over due confession...

I am a liar. I am a liar.

Go and do what you want to do.

If it makes you feel happy, then I accept.

I have mastered the feminine and I know what tolerance is.

I being a liar, does not prove that feminists are not liars or hypocrites.

I am a liar, I am having double standards and I am a treacherous person. - Sumanth October 14, 2007 12:58 PM


i will save this;)

#17
smallsquirrel
October 14, 2007
01:20 PM

I know, temporal... isn't it nice? it surely warms the cockles of my heart... :)))))

#18
B Shantanu
URL
October 14, 2007
02:37 PM

Dear All,
Thanks for bringing this back on track.

SmallSquirrel: Completely agree with you here: "I am kinda shocked that not one NGO has stepped up."

It is truly, terribly sad. Earlier today while narrating this incident to someone else, I could barely control my own tears...

Is this really the society we live in?

The people who did this are cowards of the lowest kind...and no punishment will ever heal Para Devi's wounds.

#19
Jawahara
URL
October 15, 2007
04:45 AM

I don't think the gender of a chief minister determines anything. Or should.

Para Devi, or anyone else should get justice whether the CM is a man, woman, dalit, Muslim, whatever.

These rapes of dalit women are truly horrifying and have been going on as far as I can remember. Sad and terrifying. It's heartening to see her family's support though...so as horrific as it is...that's one silver lining for her.

#20
smallsquirrel
October 15, 2007
05:41 AM

b shantanu.... yes, it really is the society we live in. rapes are a terrifyingly common occurrence, and while we tend to only pay attention to ones with overtly horrifying details such as this one, more quiet but just as horrible rapes continue on every day.

what I mean to say is that now it takes a gang rape to get our attention. we feel it's not so bad if a woman is raped by just one man.

I know that is not what you said by a long-shot, but it is how bad things have gotten in the world as a whole. But there are countries where a girl has a higher chance of being raped than learning how to read. that is sickening.

I am glad to see a man writing about this. I think more often than not men cannot really see what is so horrifying about a rape. I mean, they understand that it is wrong, of course, but few seem to understand the degradation and the horror that accompanies this most vile act. for a woman, after the death of a child, being raped is perhaps the worst thing that can occur. it means you are being used and thrown away like some garbage, and that someone else is so indifferent to your status as a human that they can ignore your pleas and suffering for their own satisfaction.

#21
FF
October 15, 2007
08:28 AM

Rape of woman (the associated guilt and denigration) is a patriarchal concept.

It is patriarchy which has made rape tantamount of some sin to have happened to a woman. It is patriarchy which considers that something horrible and dirty has happened to a woman and that her future life is jeopardized.

I expect principled feminists to come forward and support the cause which belittles, discourages and trivializes rape so that criminals who rape for dominance fail in their ulterior motives. Staunch Feminists should set an example by themselves that their is nothing sinfully wrong or bad in having been raped.

Yes indeed the consent is breached and hence rather than glorifying the incident we award punishment commensurate to any other breach of consent that may have happened with any other person.


I mean, they understand that it is wrong, of course, but few seem to understand the degradation and the horror that accompanies this most vile act

What degradation and the horror? Let us try to tell all women that rape is an offshoot of patriarchy and there is nothing to feel ashamed about. It is just a breach of consent(sexual in this case).

it means you are being used and thrown away like some garbage

When a relationship breaks everybody(man or woman) feels exactly the same. Does that mean breaking a relationship (which may or may not have gone physical) is tantamount to rape?

SS, You being a feminist I expect that you downplay the awe associated with rape. If I was a person who supported patriarchy My anger and disgust is understandable, BUT for feminists they should rather work at downplaying the act of rape and vouch(in principle) for punishment to the criminal more for his/her act of breaching the consent of an individual than for committing the physical act of rape.

Above should be taken with a grain of salt(where ever reqd...).

#22
Adventurer
October 15, 2007
08:36 AM

Looking at comments 1,4,6,8,11,12... one can only feel how foolishly shortsighted people can be in this country and ignore the inhuman acts being perpetrated around, it's disgraceful that someone should cover a crime like rape with the most absurd reasoning.

The author says 'My head hangs in shame', I say after reading these comments (numbers above) I'd rather chop off a few heads!

#23
smallsquirrel
October 15, 2007
08:52 AM

FF, this will be edited out but I am saying it now.

[EDITED]

anyone who would ever say that all that rape is, is a breach of consent is a sociopath. you are worse than slime, you are the worst kind of person imaginable.

you cannot imagine how horrible rape is, and even though I now hate you to your very core, I do hope that no one close to you ever has to undergo that kind of violence and horror.

I do hope however that you get some help for what is obviously some kind of terrible sickness you have.

why am I spewing such rage? because you are a sick sick man. I am so angry at you I cannot explain to you properly why you are so very fucked up. it's not worth it. if you cannot see why what you have said is disgusting, you are not worth it.

but I will say this for the record. I was once raped. it was not merely just a breach of consent. it was a horrible, degrading thing that was done to me. it's not sex, but you are too fucking dumb to get it.

[EDITED]

#24
FF
October 15, 2007
09:05 AM

anyone who would ever say that all that rape is, is a breach of consent is a sociopath.

Not me...The law(universal) says that...blame it on law.

And I am downright sure that you are a hard core patriarchal person. Not that I am not, because I too get boiled up when I here of one.

However, I am much more courageous that you are. I did downplay it when it happen to a woman and accepted her in my life with no further questions ever asked to her on that account.

#25
smallsquirrel
October 15, 2007
09:10 AM

FF... like I said, you can go to hell.

plus, the things you say make no sense.

I personally do not give a shit what the law says, everyone knows what rape is.

I have no idea what the point is of you calling me patriarchal is. it makes no sense.

and you are more courageous than I am? whatever man. you are nothing but a punk.

#26
FF
October 15, 2007
09:13 AM

...like I said, you can go to hell...

Ladies first...

#27
smallsquirrel
October 15, 2007
09:24 AM

well, everyone.. now we know SIFF for what it really is. A bunch of men who think that women really should not mind being raped, because all it really is amounts to a lack of consent. kind of like your roommate borrowing your sweater without asking, right?

They have said here that they believe that women have invented the horror and shame that accompanies rape, so indeed they also blame the victim.

you've heard it here from the horse's (ass'?) mouth... there is nothing to feel ashamed or upset about if a man rapes you. SIFF thinks it is nothing but breach of consent and feels that the punishment should be like if you break trust in any other similar way.

nice that you're clarifying your views.

#28
FF
October 15, 2007
09:38 AM

WRONG : now we know SIFF for what it really is.


RIGHT: Those are my personal hypothesis(though they are still not my views). They are ones which I have tried to theorize by listening to convoluted feminist logic on the internet.

WRONG!!!: That A bunch of men who think that women really should not mind being raped, because all it really is amounts to a lack of consent.

RIGHT!!! Breach of consent of "ANY" individual is very important and it should be punishable universally without regard to caste, creed, gender e.t.c.

WRONG...They have said here that they believe that women have invented the horror and shame...

RIGHT....I said, Patriarchy has invented horror,shame and sin of rape and made a society and the women herself feel guilty about it.

#29
Deepti Lamba
URL
October 15, 2007
10:15 AM

FF, having been a victim of molestation while in my college days I can tell you that sexual assault breaks a woman's spirit and the trauma can last a life time.

My best friend was abused by her fufarji when she was barely 15. What she told me I was in tears for days together imagine what it did to her. It has nothing to do with patriarchy but the loss of innocence both of body and mind.

I don't know how to explain it coz even though i am happy with my life but when I look back to the times I was molested in buses, trains and even once on a road I shudder. The sense of being at someone's mercy, of losing self esteem, of dreading to venture out the next day was torturous, of being scared of all men till realizing learning to forge trustworthy relationship with the opposite gender was painful.

How much worse would it be to be raped? Even a man raped would feel the same. The damage is done to the human psyche.

I know a nice person who had been raped when he was still a school goer. The anger and hurt that followed him well into adult hood screwed up his relationship with all those around him.

Whatever SIFF feels is none of my business but to take away the hurt and pain and just call it - breach of consent is barbaric.

#30
kela
October 15, 2007
10:17 AM

FF -what if you were raped? how would you feel then?

#31
kela
October 15, 2007
10:21 AM

F-"I am much more courageous that you are...."

get off that fuckin pedestal,how would you be more courageous than a rape victim?

#32
smallsquirrel
October 15, 2007
10:58 AM

deepti.. the problem with people like FF is that they simply see rape as sex that women did not agree to. they probably think it is something that could be enjoyable if we victims could just get over ourselves.

they fail to realize the horrific details that surround what happens when someone forces themselves on your and and does the most disgusting of things to your body despite you begging them to stop. it ceases to be about anything close to consent and later becomes about survival. thinking otherwise is the sign of a sick, sick person who obviously needs psychiatric help.

#33
B Shantanu
URL
October 15, 2007
11:13 AM

After reading some of the comments here, I am beginning to wonder whether we all live on the same planet? Some of the views are unbelievable - not to mention pathetic, disgusting, shameful and shocking (My anger is getting the better of my thoughts here)...


How can ANYONE - I repeat, ANYONE - ever justify what happened to Para Devi?

#34
Deepti Lamba
URL
October 15, 2007
11:24 AM

SS, I fail to understand the lack of empathy for a rape victim. It boggles my mind that people can be so cold hearted and think its like falling off a horse.

I don't think we can get across to people like FF who in their anger have lost all sense of compassion for a hurting human being.

I hope Sumanth will come here and clarify the SIFF position on rape. Is it really treated as just a matter of non consent?

I read in a previous post that they do not help abused women and now to read this from a so called SIFF member I am very disturbed and made to wonder whether SIFF really stands for truth and justice?

#35
smallsquirrel
October 15, 2007
11:32 AM

well Deepti... I think the truth has finally outed. SIFF is a bunch of men who think that women are there to be abused by men... and they cover that up with lies about women. in the end their hatred of women shines right through.

what's particularly disgusting is they would not stand for a dog to even be treated in this way.

the so-called feminists they hate so much want to put an end to all abuse... abuse of women, men, children, misuse of domestic violence laws, etc. why? because we all realize that misuse of whatever small protections we have cheapens them and makes bringing any rapist or abuser of any gender to justice.

what has become clear is that the members of SIFF hate women. they think that women are simply there to satisfy them sexually, and if that is consensual, fine but if it is not.. .it is something akin to borrowing a car without consent. because that is all we are to them... possessions.

they are some sick, twisted men.

#36
FF
October 15, 2007
11:34 AM

You guys ignored couple of things which I said...

1) What I said above should have been taken with "grain of salt"...

2) The guilt factored is harbored in an adult an victim (as if she has become untouchable) is more because of influence of conservative, sexually repressive and patriarchal society. Given the logic I have heard from feminists who bash patriarchy all day along, I do not see any issue if I extend the same logic to pose above hypothesis. If anyone disagrees, let him/her state reasons and I would be happy to alter my hypothesis because I have no fixation to it. However In absence of it, I do not see how do I reconcile feminist view of society of with the broader scheme of things (i.e. equality)


3) I do not know how would I actually react if I (or somebody close to me was raped)... but given the influence of patriarchal society I have been born into , I think I should be enraged as much is any other patriarchal person on this forum.

However, I met a woman in life who had undergone such experience (caused by somebody very close to her) but contrary to surrounding, prevailing popular patriarchal notion, I accepted her as my partner without asking her any further questions on that account. It is another story that the same woman implicated me in a false 498A case, because

a) I refused to leave my parents

b) I could not buy a house and a car in her name.



4) Deepti...I having nothing to take away from you at you feeling anguished because you had been mal- treated in public places. As much as you have felt enraged at being molested...I as a man felt equally debased when while traveling in a bus, I told one of blue line conductors to vacate a seat for a elderly person(unknown to me and since I have already vacated my seat for another elderly person) and he hit me back(with his goons aiding him all along) and this happens almost everyday with so many of us. Nothing happened even when I reported the matter to police. To me the so called "breach of consent" was as much as for you being mistreated, but I am sure we as a society will generally shelve any abuse of men as minor offenses.

I am sure, had it happened to a woman, a case of outrage of modesty of woman would have been lodged and the person put behind bars. Still when I hear feminists speaking that police is not gender sensitive, it boils my blood. Feminists conveniently ignore that police inaction is a ubiquitous and it has nothing to do with gender. And then as a self derived conclusion they salivate for even more stringent laws against men blackmailing the Govt with votes and society with their usual rhetoric of women victimhood.



5) On a side note, All of you are making rape of woman look like a crime like none else in this world. Imagine of people who are falsely accused of such crimes and have to undergo the abomination of everybody around them not once but for years. The guilt in a person who is falsely accused of any such crime would be as much as that of victim.

While all of us hold our heads in shame when a rape is committed, we tend to shove of any abuse of law under the carpet as collateral damage disregarding the fact that intensity (and frequency) of the crime stated later is at-least as much as that of the former.

There are people for whom behind the bars for a day or for 10 years make no differences because all they had to loose was lost on that very first day.

#37
FF
October 15, 2007
11:41 AM

How can ANYONE - I repeat, ANYONE - ever justify what happened to Para Devi?

Point me out where anybody on this forum justified that...If you want to look at comments through SS's lens then that is your choice.

#38
Deepti Lamba
URL
October 15, 2007
11:51 AM

FF, 498a is a law that should never have been passed. And considering the way Indian society easily condemns the kind of anguish the family that has been wrongly accused cannot be fathomed, which is why I have been a well wisher of SIFF.

If you scroll back to the top you will see my outrage with regards to the author's viewpoint.

An assault of any kind is terrible and I do sympathize with you with regards to the violence done against you and feel outrage that those miscreants were allowed to get away.

Your pain and mine is the same. We were both made to feel powerless, humiliated and degraded. It doesn't matter that you are a man and I am a woman what we felt was the same and I am sorry about it.

With regards to your ex-wife, my cousin sister refused to file a 498a against her ex. Her reason was simple - she said that her conscience would not allow her to pull such a farce. Women like her do exist and then there are those who for revenge decide its okay to falsely charge their spouses, they lack moral character or have been advised to use the law to get fat alimonies.

The author of the article called it 'clever' and I was offended that she could so support such a grievous act.

Yes, conservative societies do bring shame to raped women, but at the same time there is no awe here but a plea to understand the victim's helplessness.

The injustice that a rape victim goes through and the pain an entire family suffers from 498a maybe equal at a psychological level and I am saying maybe since I do not know the kind of pain either have gone through.

I hope I have made my stand clear.



#39
Deepti Lamba
URL
October 15, 2007
11:54 AM

Sorry, not the author of this post but I was talking about the dowry post

#40
smallsquirrel
October 15, 2007
12:36 PM

no, FF.. the reason the rape is horrific is not because society tells us that we should feel guilty or that people blame the victim. the reason we feel disgusting after a rape is because the act itself is so horrifying.

please imagine that you are somewhere, anywhere feeling safe. then a man comes and overpowers you. you have no idea why. he binds your hands, and you ask him to please stop. he hits you. he pulls off your clothes and with no lubrication he jams his penis up your anus. you are screaming and that makes him more turned on. you are horrified and in pain and he hits you. he defiles you. he forces you to perform oral sex on him. he hits you more. you beg for him to stop and he laughs in your face. you are bleeding and in agony. he does everything to you again. and laughs at you more. then as he is leaving you naked and bleeding on the floor he laughs at you. you want to die.

DOES THAT SOUND LIKE A SIMPLE LACK OF CONSENT TO YOU. WOULD YOU FEEL OK WITH THAT, FF? REALLY? WOULD A SIMPLE CHANGE OF PATRIARCHAL FEELINGS MAKE THAT SITUATION ACCEPTABLE TO YOU?

#41
ravi
October 15, 2007
09:08 PM

small squirrel

thanks for your patience, and thanks for explaining how much violence and humiliation that a victim will face in that heinous crime.

If society changed, and accepts it as just an accident, then that victim face less humiliation after that incident.But the humiliation the victim faced at the time of rape lessen only after that the attacker punished.

#42
Deepti Lamba
URL
October 16, 2007
12:47 AM

Ravi, it isn't an accident, its a deliberate invasion of the body and soul. But I think we get what you are trying to say.

#43
smallsquirrel
October 16, 2007
12:55 AM

ravi... see, nothing lessens that humiliation. that is what I am trying to say. it has nothing to do with the reaction of people afterwards (although that can make it worse).. .but really nothing makes it better. the only way people heal from it is to move forward. but honestly, the punishment of the attacker doesn't fix the problem for the victim.

#44
ravi
October 16, 2007
03:13 AM

in post #41

i said it is accident, i mean to say there is nothing wrong in victim, so people should not blame her for that.

came to punishment..the attacker roaming freely in front of that victim is another torture. If attacker punished according to law,then there is relief..i want to say this only.

#45
Jawahara
URL
October 16, 2007
04:45 AM

At the risk of being lynched and flamed....can I say I kind of understand what FF is saying. And, that it is something that I've also thought about from an academic viewpoint.

The aftermath of a rape (let's forget ultra-violent rapes which involve beatings and/or death for this one) is heightened or diminished for the victim based on societal mores.

Why, for instance, in countries like India, were the only options open to a raped woman (aided and abetted by Indian movies), death or becoming a tawaif. Because she was outside the pale of society. Because she was seen to bear the guilt for her own victimization.

Women were seen as chattel or property, and therefore, were damanged goods after being raped. Would carrying this burden push someone over the edge to kill herself/live her life under a cloud of shame?

Part of recovering from a rape is absolving yourself of blame, right? Going on to live your life as fully as you can involves making the rape not a defining moment of your life.

There was something and there will be something else after the rape. This does not mean ignoring emotions and reactions but taking the sting out of a horrific event so that the person can go on to live a productive life as a person not as a "rape victim."

And a lot of the ongoing trauma of rape does lie in its aftermath. In child sexual molestation, for instance, violence might not be involved but coercion and trickery might. The child carries the burden of that guilt knowing that having sex is wrong, especially with an adult. But that child is not able to know that s/he was manipulated into something by someone more mentally mature than him/her.

Survivors of rape and molestation do carry the guilt for the act. Would it be lessened if there were not these other connotations for the crime? Like being sullied and unfit, like sex itself is dirty, like you do not get into a sexual relationship until your parents deem you ready, etc. etc.

One of the intents of counselling for victims of rape and molestation is to absolve yourself of blame, which is what victims sometimes find the hardest thing to do. It's easy to hate the rapist or molester. That is black and white.

But it was ingrained for victims, for centuries, to hate and blame themselves as well because in becoming a victim they damaged themselves adn their families. The weight of that guilt was damaging because it was so real to them and no one told them that it was not their fault. They were victims not just of rape but also of a patriarchial setup that weighed their worth and found it wanting because of the rape.

Was that because they had themselves had bought into the patriarchial constructs of rape and molestation? Could this trauma be lessened if the rape or molestation did not have all this other baggage attached?

#46
smallsquirrel
October 16, 2007
05:16 AM

jawahara... as a rape survivor and a former rape counselor, I wish it were that easy. and I wish that FF was saying was as benign (and well thought out) as what you have said.

It is partially correct. Yes, the social stigma attached to rape does play a part in it. But even devoid of social stigma, the worst part of dealing with a rape is the aftermath. so even if you damned well know it was not your fault, and even if no one around you makes you feel any less of a person, it is still a life-altering event.

also, I can tell you have fallen into the trap that many people have. that if the act is not ultra-violent, with beatings or near death, that somehow it is easier to get past. do you know how many women just shut down? after the initial struggle, in order to keep themselves alive, they go into a kind of fuge state... so maybe the act was not outwardly violent, but it surely was inwardly violent.

so for the most part, no... the trauma is not really lessened if we lose the baggage. from the outside it might seem that way. but unfortunately rape is not something that you can rationalize away. it effects you emotionally, and that is where the scars lie.

Yes, part of the treatment is to be able to see yourself as no longer a victim. but what that really means for the person who lived through the rape is to no longer let the person continue raping you by still living in fear that it will happen to you again. it is the fear that consumes you. it is the memories of what was done that eats at you. it is not the social stigma really.

if it were that easy, so many women would never suffer at all.

#47
smallsquirrel
October 16, 2007
05:24 AM

I will add though that in countries like India, what happens to a woman after she is raped is additional trauma that should not be ignored

so I do not wish to diminish what happens to women in those situations. all I meant to point out is that women in the US and europe, where there is very little social stigma attached to rape, suffer horrendously. so I think the two events are really separate issues, actually.

#48
Jawahara
URL
October 16, 2007
07:03 AM

SS, I was in no way saying that the rape itself is not an act of violence...without or without exteme violence. I was talking about the compounded effects of societal mores on top of that.

Also, perhaps you did not intend it that way, but the "falling into the trap," thing really got my goat. I have written and been a published author on feminist issues, including academic presentations at conferences. Some of these were on rapes and sexual assaults.

So I really resent being judged as some kind of susceptible female easily swayed by anyone else's propoganda or woolly logic. However, I think we know each other a bit through our various interactions so I will try not to take offence to that particular statement.

But yes, I do have a natural curiosity about examining issues... away from even my own natural kneejerk and entirely warranted persoanl reaction to rape. A reaction that all women naturally have and most men have to taught. I like dissecting issues and events to see if they can be put together in another way. That is divorced from the emotional side of me that feels what it does when confronted with sexual assault issues.

I know enough and have thought enough about rape (including talking to those who have been raped) to know that rape itself is an act of violence with or without beatings. That's a given.

The reason I was keeping those acts out of the discussion was because for both victims and society it is easier to judge those acts as violence. Those are unequivocal acts of violence.

The murkier subject both for the victim's guilt and what challenges society are rapes that do not have the associated extreme violence. Those are the rapes that make people wonder. Was that a loose woman? Did she wear a short skirt or a low-cut blouse? Etc. etc. The woman could be paralyzed with fear, in a disassociative state, threatened with reprisals (or with the threat of violence), etc. etc. but it doesn't matter. The questions are the same.

I've talked to men who do not even consider a rape in which the woman did not have actual signs of outward violence as rape. Rape to them is the stranger who jumps out of the bushes with a knife and brutalizes the woman. So, yes (not to belabor the point) I resent being clubbed in with these people when I was merely trying to explore the issue in a different way.

A very good friend of mine was raped in the U.S. (and she is not Indian-American but white-caucasian so she doesn't bear our desi burden) and despite the more englightened reactions to rape in the U.S. and a very supportive family, I know that her feelings in the aftermath were related to what people would think about her. She was brave enough to ID the guy and to attend the trial every day but even she felt the pressure of the society around her.

She suffered because of the rape and she suffered because she felt she was judged. And this was someone sleeping in her home who awoke to find a stranger in her room. So I can only imagine what date rape victims must feel like. Or victims of marital rape.

She and I have discussed this particular thesis. In fact she brought it up. This does not mean that the emotional and physical toll of the rape itself would not exist without society. But is there an additional burden because of others' reactions to it? I believe there is.

In certain parts of India, of course, this burden is much worse. This is the reason that so many rape victims in India do not even come forward...because of being judged by society? Do you not think that adds an enormous burden on her?

And we know there are unreported rapes in the U.S. as well. Why is that? Could it because of the fear of being judged? Perhaps not in the same way she would be judged in Indian society...but there is some judgement going on? How much more does a rape victim suffer and is unable to go on with her life if she is rendered so mute by society so she cannot even talk about it? Or complain about it?

#49
B Shantanu
URL
October 16, 2007
07:28 AM

@ Jawahara: Re. "Those are the rapes that make people wonder. Was that a loose woman? Did she wear a short skirt or a low-cut blouse? Etc. etc."

have a look at this:

On Jeans, Indian Men and "Indecent Behaviour"

#50
B Shantanu
URL
October 16, 2007
07:29 AM

Sorry the link does not seem to be working. Here it is:

http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/11/on-jeans-indian-men-and-indecent-behaviour/

#51
Jawahara
URL
October 16, 2007
07:47 AM

Thanks for the URL, B. Shantanu. *shakes her head* Of course, one of the biggest hurdles in India is updating laws and educating the judiciary.

Whether a woman wears tight jeans or even is a slut or a prostitute if she does not want to have sex with someone and says so but is forced to submit in any way, it's rape. Period!

That link really made me mad.

I remember a few years ago, an Indian-American mother whose young daughter (7-8 yo I think) was being molested and raped by her husband (the child's father) came with the child to India. She filed a case in the Indian courts with the support of her family. Now I don't know why she would do that since child abuse victims have a better chance of getting justice and help in the U.S.

Anyway, rather than looking at the evidence or anything else, the judge said something to the effect that the mother had a dirty mind and that no father would ever do what her sick mind had conjured up. The case was thrown out of court.

We have a long way to go.

#52
smallsquirrel
October 16, 2007
07:52 AM

well, I am sorry if I offended you, but honestly I have had enough of the stupidity from people like FF and sumanth, and so while I was angry at them I could not really see why you were making the distinction between those two kinds... which led me to believe that maybe you were very much intellectualizing rape. believe you me i have seen many a very intelligent woman do it, and to some extent I probably did it myself before it happened to me.

so my apologies, and please do not take offense. maybe you can see why I drew that conclusion, although I should have asked first.

I still think that really, even if the guy had beat me more than he had, it was not the worst part of it. the hitting was nothing compared to the demoralization. being hit is a walk in the park compared to being spat on. this is why I guess your distinction irked me.

unreported rapes happen most often because women fear that no one will believe them and because of the terribly low conviction rate in the US, that they will have to face their attacker in court and STILL have the guy walk. also, a lot of women do nothing because they want to stay in denial about the incident. recognizing it and dealing with it gives it the legitimacy of something that actually occurred.

when you deal with rape victims the first thing you will notice is that many of them will question whether or not they were raped at some point. they want to deny it happened so badly that they will find any way to rationalize the situation. It is really not as much to do with the stigma, but so much more to do with the control that you have lost over yourself.

I agree that in places like India and Pakistan the societal pressure adds another layer onto the rape. The woman is again brutalized by the questions of her morality, if she asked for it, etc. There are also idiots in the US who think in similar terms.

Here is the issue. Having that stigma does make it worse. But not having it does not make it better. Does that make sense?

#53
Sirius
October 16, 2007
10:13 AM

I only see one future for women in India : Women rising collectively in a form like Ma Kali, taking up arms against such opressors and slaying them on the spot.

#54
Sumanth
October 16, 2007
10:54 AM

Sirius,

In that same future, women (or their parents) who file false rape cases will also be slayed on the spot. Going by your own standards the females who rape young boys must also be slayed. Is not it? In Parasurama Style if you bring Kali.

Please note, in India, parents often put rape charges on guys, if their daughters elop with them.

The yard sticks and the laws have to be the same for all.

Smallsquirrel,

You must be very well aware that in US lot of rapes are unreported. Because, in the middle of a nice sex session, the woman's mind toggles between consent and 'no consent".

Btw, thanks for telling that you got angry.


To all,

What do you people suggest about women who sleep for years with guys in live in relationships and file rape charges after end of relationships?

#55
Aaman
URL
October 16, 2007
11:01 AM

Why is it so difficult to stay on topic - this is about the judicially disenfranchised poverty-struck. How does live-in relationships relate?

Incidentally, there's more deliberate troll-talk above which is best ignored.

#56
Deepti Lamba
URL
October 16, 2007
11:02 AM

rapes are unreported. Because, in the middle of a nice sex session, the woman's mind toggles between consent and 'no consent".


Sumanth, how should I decently put it to you? Even in the last minute a woman has the right to say - NO! Otherwise the man is no more than a lust driven animal.

DEAL WITH IT!!

#57
Sumanth
October 16, 2007
11:18 AM

Jawahara,

You wrote:

"I remember a few years ago, an Indian-American mother whose young daughter (7-8 yo I think) was being molested and raped by her husband (the child's father) came with the child to India."

So, fathers are rapists just because a woman says so. A woman's words have to be taken at face value.

Let me warn you all, if you guys are hell bent on spreading misandry and indulge in "father-bashing" just to deny shared parenting or child visitation to men, soon you will find masculists attacking the very concept of "Mother".

The choice in yours.

Now, let me answer your famous question below:

"She filed a case in the Indian courts with the support of her family. Now I don't know why she would do that since child abuse victims have a better chance of getting justice and help in the U.S?"

Because, she knows very well that it is very difficult to "cheat" American courts and get away with false accusations. Where as she is very sure about how easy it is to sensationalise the complaints by putting provocative and false content so that she can get an interpol arrest warrent.

The other explanation is: The husband must have moved to an US court accusing the wife of "Parental Kidnapping" of an US citizen child. Fearing an Interpol arrest warning, she would have claimed that her daughter is molested and raped.

I handle helpline of Harassed husbands(especially Techies and NRIs) in Bangalore and also meeting the victims and I am not at all surprised if I come across such women/mothers.

-------------
In India, a movie is made on a similar "Real" story called "undertrial".

http://movies.monstersandcritics.com/indiancinema/news/article_1262557.php/Rajpals_new_film_attacks_sensationalism


It again establishes why SIFF has an uphill task of fighting feminists who are hell bent in creating intolerance against men and fathers, which makes some people recommend "SLAYING" without verifying if a person is a criminal or an innocent.

#58
Sumanth
October 16, 2007
11:26 AM

In the middle of a sexual act, the woman says "No" and the man stops in that instant.

Is it possible?

Okay, say I accept that if a man continues 2 seconds more than the moment a woman said, "No", then it is Rape.

In that case, a man can also say, "no" (say in a reverse missionary position) and if the woman does not stop in that very second, then it is rape of man.


#59
Deepti Lamba
URL
October 16, 2007
11:33 AM

YES! It is! And It HAS BEEN DONE and correct me if I'm not wrong but its a man with the penis who can apply brute force not the woman.

A man who can pin a woman down and continue to fuck her not a woman!!

Sumanth seriously dude stop it already!!

#60
Deepti Lamba
URL
October 16, 2007
11:34 AM

Second? What is wrong with you? A No is a No and one stops then and there and a man can pull away Thats what differentiates us from animals! Jeez

#61
Deepti Lamba
URL
October 16, 2007
11:38 AM

As it happens this is yet another SIFF propoganda to show how low they can fall.

Jeering about Rape for fun sake shows the low mindset of certain men.

Good for you Sumanth you notched a point in your men's club. Have fun Sumanth but I will not play in the gutter with you anymore - what you lack is basic humanity

#62
Aaman
URL
October 16, 2007
11:48 AM

read propaganda as provocation

#63
smallsquirrel
October 16, 2007
11:54 AM

you know sumanth... I have a lot of experience dealing with perpetrators of abuse... and strangely your discourse sounds very much like that of an abuser. see, what happens is that abusers are taken to task for their actions. and they never really saw themselves as abusers before... so when confronted with the truth about who they really are, they tend to lash out irrationally and virulently at others.

it's nice, though, that you continue to expose SIFF as an organization that condones rape and harbors abusers and rapists and apparently now child molesters too! WOW! we're all glad that you are putting the message out there yourself. it lessens the amount of work we have to do. you might have a few other abusers and spurned men who are willing to join your rag-tag bunch of lonely women-haters... but the rest of us are much smarter and much larger than you'll ever be... except in your own mind, I suppose.

I refuse to let you rile me up. you're simply too full of shit to be believed.

#64
SeemaD
October 16, 2007
11:56 AM

#57, 58: Sumanth you are turning a discussion about a serious subject into a stupid and trivial banter.

Every one of your comments is absolutely dumb and worthy of ridicule. If I could I would've edited every one of your idiotic logic and banned the SIFF from commenting here. You guys have been given way too much credit, way too many chances. You are an anti-women's group that is in no way capable of decent dialogue. having your comments and chauvinistic crap here reflects very poorly on the site.

If a woman or a man says no, then the sexual act should be stopped. If a man has the courage to step forward and admit to being raped by a woman I am sure the legal forces and law enforcement will try to bring justice to the man. But men themselves consider it a dent to their ego when it comes to admitting that they were violated. Only men can change that. Why don't you be the first guy to step forward and admit how you were raped in the "reverse missionary position"??? have your SIFF members level accusations of rape against their estranged wives to counter the 498A or DV cases.

You come to a public forum and expose the stupidity of the SIFF members by trivializing a devastating experience that you yourself have never gone through. You rant like a raving mad bull. Every one of your comments is just a pissy anti-women rant because some woman screwed you over. Every day hundreds of men too walk out on their marriages leaving their wives in debt and to care for children. Women get over it. Its time you do too. Shit happens. Don't hate the entire female population because you married some loser.

And you are protecting Indian families from 498A misuse right...or are you moving into protecting child abusers as well now?

Nobody is believing a woman based on verbal testimony. If that were true so many authentic rape cases would not be thrown out of court for lack of evidence. There are rape kits, DNA evidence, vaginal bruising and a psychological examination. In addition there are lie detector machines which also confirms the scenario. Child abuse requires a child to come forth with the testimony and you are turning the issue of such a grievous loss of innocence into a gender war???

If you are speaking of India then don't worry...the rapists will gather enough money to get out. So please don't lose sleep worrying about men who rape and will have to face consequences in India. Don't you instruct your fellow members to latch on to an anticipatory bail? Well, I am sure rapists and child molesters will also find some such cop-out. Sleep easy.

Having read all your comments on a matter as serious as rape, I have to admit, I think whatever it was that happened to you SIFF members for you to turn into such misogynistic rogues...you deserved it. Every bit of it. You are a disrespectful, illogical, irrational, conceited, reactionary, chauvinistic, patriarchal lot.

#65
temporal
URL
October 16, 2007
11:59 AM

confessional words of wisdom!

I am a liar. I am a liar.

Go and do what you want to do.

If it makes you feel happy, then I accept.

I have mastered the feminine and I know what tolerance is.

I being a liar, does not prove that feminists are not liars or hypocrites.

I am a liar, I am having double standards and I am a treacherous person. - Sumanth October 14, 2007 12:58 PM

#66
Aaman
URL
October 16, 2007
12:00 PM

These comments can be edited out instantly, are hate speech, but would we rather do that or let them stand to speak for themselves, and the next time the 'SIFF' issues a press release or raises a hue and cry, point them here.

Or we can wipe the comments now as it's all offtopic, besides being hate speech.

#67
Jawahara
URL
October 16, 2007
12:12 PM

Umm...Sumanth, maybe you should actually read a complete sentence before going off half-cocked (bam!).

I said the judge made those statements *without* looking at any evidence. The role of a court is to make judicial decisions not to be the moral police. You know what, when a little kid is involved the court better actually try to get to the truth than to come up with some half-baked theories about someone.

As for the rest of your deliberately provocative and intensely idiotic comments I prefer not to dignify them with a response.

And ss, I did not hypothesize that the trauma of rape disappears or is non-existent if there are no societal pressures. So yes I do get your point. The point was and has always been about the excarbated effect of the pressures. Why was it a fate worse than death? Or in India, why was rape called (and still is) referred to as the "looting of the honor?" Because the effects and repercussions of the act persisted beyond the horrible after-effects the victim suffered on an individual basis.

Fate and honor are not merely events--as a rape is--that have an end-pont for the woman to be able to go on. They become incorporated into the victim's persona and are seen as indelible definitions of who she is. They became her descriptors. Living as a rape victim is bad enough. Living as damaged goods and with no honor or in a permanent state of bad fate ...stopped the woman from ever transcending a horrific event.

About unreported rapes in the U.S., which are the women most unlikely to report them? Young women who go to frat parties at school (why did she go? was she asking for it?), date rape victims, the shy girl raped by the high school jock, etc. etc. When I taught undergrads many moons ago, one of my students talked about going through just such questions in her mind after she was raped as a freshman. She decided not to report it because she did not want to be judged. When I talked to her she was a severaly depressed young woman two years after the event. She did not want to be judged and refused to even go to counselling which I suggested or to report it. I am not sure what the statute of limitations are for rape.

This is just one example of those who as you said were afraid of not being believed. Isn't not being believed a judgement of some kind? That they would believe a woman is lying about rape shows that society (or various members of it) who are judging the victim.

And is it not possible that they would not be believed because even in the U.S. there are societal judgements that victims experience? So, it's a bit more complex in the sense that the justice system is more understanding, most families are supportive and there are other support systems in place.

But for a woman to fear not being believed and therefore not reporting a rape...there has to be some sense of others judging her that comes into play.

In India she would be a fallen woman (for lack of a better term) and in the U.S. she is judged on different crieria, perhaps more sophisticated ones: she asked for it, she waited too long to say no. Or she feels she would not be believed because she herself feels guilty (going on a date with a bad boy, getting drunk, going to a frat party, etc.). To me these are both societal judgments...just different depending on the type of society itself.

And no, I moved past the offence-taking because I know where you are coming from. Generally, we are both on the same side. But I do like to examine these issues from multiple sides.

#68
Sumanth
October 16, 2007
12:50 PM

Deepti,

You wrote:

"YES! It is! And It HAS BEEN DONE and correct me if I'm not wrong but its a man with the pen** who can apply brute force not the woman.

A man who can pin a woman down and continue to f*** her not a woman!!"

The choice to say "No" in the middle of a sexual act has to be available for both men and women without considering who is muscular or powerful brute.

Just because men in general are muscular, should they be denied that right. Should that right be given only to women because they do not have strong muscles?

Is not it the same way that DV protection is denied to men with the excuse that men are brutes, who can beat up women and hence they do not need the protection under DV law.

Men are not animals. Only psychotics like to indulge in sex without consent.

What I am pointing at is the difficulties of establishing "charges of rape" in the middle of a sexual act, which started with consent after a party. It can lead to a dangerous situation, as women's words are taken as evidence (regarding rape) in many countries including India.

If a woman can change her mind and accuse man of rape, I do not understand why the same choice is be denied to men with the excuse that men are stronger physically.

I am not making "fun" of rape. I am talking about equality and choice here. It is a fact that in US there are thousands of false rape cases filed every year even while some other innocent victims may not be reporting rape.

-------------------

Regarding this article, Poor people in India have no access to justice system irrespective of gender. With a few bucks one can buy police and the law enforcement system.

-------------------

#69
temporal
URL
October 16, 2007
01:01 PM

aaman:

my vote will be to leave them here this time

sumanth and von-siffers get offended when i bring in tunnel-vison syndrome but let other readers judge who is right

if sumanth here is the 'best' SIF can offer than than one can easily determine the delusional-denial state of the rest of their cabal

#70
Deepti Lamba
URL
October 16, 2007
01:09 PM

The choice to say "No" in the middle of a sexual act has to be available for both men and women without considering who is muscular or powerful brute.

Just because men in general are muscular, should they be denied that right. Should that right be given only to women because they do not have strong muscles?


Definition of Rape in dictionary.com

any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

The word 'forced' ring a bell? A lone woman cannot apply force on a man if he is in his senses.

Temporal, my vote- it stays!! There is no beating around the bush this time and I find no happiness in what has transpired.



#71
Sumanth
October 16, 2007
01:13 PM

Jawahara,

Just because fear of not being believed is stopping women from reporting rape, should we all believe all charges by women blindly?

You wrote:

"That they would believe a woman is lying about rape shows that society (or various members of it) who are judging the victim."

So, what are your recommendations? Society should take all accusations by women at face value? For example, should society take all accusations of rape, DV and cruelty at face value without any questioning?

Because, if anyone questions the woman and ponders about various motives, then you will claim that the society is judging the victim.


Everyone needs to be questioned. The accuser and the accused. That is how the courts work and that is how everyone has to think.

No one must be believed on face value. At the same time, any so called victim must be given all psychological and emotional support by the institutions.
------------------

To all,

If you feel, I and other SIFF members are abusers and if it helps you, keep thinking.

But, I have personally come across cases in Bangalore, where women after filing false dowry cases, have accused their brothers-in-law of attempting to rape her.


In one occasion, the woman after accusing the family under false dowry case, accused the brother-in-law for attempt to rape and tore his shirt in the counsellor's office. During bail hearing, the judge says,"sister-in-law is like mother and you tried to rape her?" and rejects the bail. Of course, the guy got bail in high court.

What people fail to understand is, a woman who files one false case, is capable of filing 10 different false cases.

Now, just because we have to talk the woman's words as "truth" fearing that accusation that we are judging a victim, should we be putting every innocent people in jail and defaming them in media?
-----

Finally, Feminism has shown its true colours. According to them, so called victim's words have to be always believed. They also want only women to have the right to say, "no", which they want to deny to men.




#72
ravi
October 16, 2007
01:20 PM

OMG, after i entered into desicritics, i came to know many "isms" and "syndromes" that i don't know prior. forget about feminism, humanism, musculinism, here i find delusionism, tunnel vision syndrom,..etc.

may be people who came here will addict to, syndrom of "finding others syndroms" or ism of "opposing other isms".

#73
Sumanth
October 16, 2007
01:23 PM

Deepti,

I will not accept the following sexist comment.

"A lone woman cannot apply force on a man if he is in his senses."

I will not believe it.

Secondly, should the right to say "No" and consequent legal protection be denied to men just because they are strong and they can violently push the woman away?

The right to say "No" and resultant legal protection against rape has to be available for both genders.

I know one poor muslim guy working in ITPL in Bangalore whom his wife used to beat up and then would try to have sex.

What should he do?
Ask protection from police or push the woman?

If he pushes the woman away, then please note, it is domestic violence.

Men have no right to push women as the woman can always injure herself if she gets hit as he pushed her.

#74
Deepti Lamba
URL
October 16, 2007
01:24 PM

My sister is divorce lawyer and has fought quite a few 498a cases from the men's side. The husbands too made allegations of a wives being promiscuous, one even cajoled a teen male servant to say that he slept with the ex- wife but later on retracted the statement when it was found to be too outlandish and going against her basic nature.

One fellow landed up at his ex's house with a pair of scissors and she locked herself up in the bathroom till her family members came to her clinic.

And my sister still had to be part of the guy's defense team.

I know horror stories of abusive men who treat their wives as sub-human, of women who still went back to those men because of their children

But you won't talk about them would you know Sumanth coz they aren't part of your truth.


#75
Sumanth
October 16, 2007
01:45 PM

Deepti,

There are feminists, NCW, Vimochana readily available to talk about women's part of truth. They get millions of rupees to do that job. Women's side of truth is also politically correct.

I completely agree with you that some men try to take revenge against woman after "a false or a true" 498a. That only harms them. Revenge always backfires irrespective of men or women.

We always make men forgive wives so that they can plan for a longer battle.

I do not have a high regard for lawyers(without any offense to your sister), who advise men to file for divorce. Lawyers are the ones who for the sake of their business escalate the problems by ill-advising people (both sides).

By the way, please ask your sister following:

How much percentage of settlement money is shared by the lawyers of both sides?


-----
I have come across hundreds of cases, where men stay with the woman even after sub human treatement by the wife and parents, just fearing 498a, DV law and the fear of not seeing the children again in life.
-----

#76
temporal
URL
October 16, 2007
01:47 PM

THAT dalit woman who cannot read the digressions here is still crying silently

she is being sidetracked, neglected, ignored and denied justice

yet again

sheesh!

#77
smallsquirrel
October 16, 2007
01:51 PM

sumanth, you are a lost cause. no one here has ever said that they do not believe that there are male victims. we have tried to commiserate with you and understand. however, you are wholly intent on tilting at windmills. you have to create some kind of fake war in your head to justify your sickness and probably some very very shady past behavior. what you are engaging in is pathological from a psychiatric standpoint, and I actually just feel sorry for you.

I think sumanth's comments should stand as a public record of what SIFF stands for so when people go looking for information they can see that SIFF is not a legitimate organization, but a front for angry, impotent men.

I also propose that we stop engaging him at this point. He is merely causing fights to cause them. He has proved that he doesn't listen to reason. Let's shut him and all his cronies right out. They admit they lie, why continue to give them a forum now that we know they are not interested in dialog. They are all incredibly sick people who are best left alone.

Let's have a vote.. all in favor say "aye!"

#78
smallsquirrel
October 16, 2007
01:52 PM

temporal... I agree... let's stop giving sumanth a forum for his stupidity and instead see what we can do to help a REAL victim.

#79
B Shantanu
URL
October 16, 2007
01:54 PM

Temporal: Exactly...I have been watching this exchange with a mixture of exasperation, frustration and helplessness...

Is this the best we have to offer to a victim who has suffered such horrible abuse - obfuscation, pedantry and sociological theories?


#80
Deepti Lamba
URL
October 16, 2007
01:57 PM

I am too tired and I get Shantanu's point.

#81
Sumanth
October 16, 2007
02:04 PM

Temporal,

Where are the human rights organisations? Where is NHRC? Where is NCW? Do they think of this poor woman? Because, poor have no rights in this country. The judicial system is only focused on urban India. There are no police reforms and hence people can buy police.


-------
Here is my response to your very language:
-------
Smallsquirell, you are a lost cause. No one here has ever said that they do not believe that there are female victims. We, the men and reasonable have tried to commiserate with women and understand. However, Feminists are wholly intent on tilting at windmills. Feminists have to create some kind of fake war in their heads to justify their mental sickness and probably some very very shady past behavior. What Feminists are engaging in is pathological from a psychiatric standpoint, and I actually just feel sorry for these women.

I think all Feminists's comments should stand as a public record of how anti-male they are, so when people go looking for information they can see that Feminism today is not a social movement, but a front for angry and intolerant women.

---------------------------

#82
temporal
URL
October 16, 2007
02:07 PM

sumanth

where are you

you miss this all too important query

forget about others...look at yourself in the eyes....where are YOU (and your ilk) in all this?

#83
temporal
URL
October 16, 2007
02:12 PM

ss, dee, shant., jay and others

what can be done to alleviate her sufferings?...though monetary aid is not a substitute it can go some way in helping her in her quandary

anyone knows if a fund can be/or is set up for her?

#84
Sumanth
October 16, 2007
02:13 PM

Discussion and mental gynastics will not help.

Now, write 10 points on how you can support (not help) the abused woman? She will be helpless if you consider her as helpless.

1) Write 200 mails to NHRC and NCW with copies to media.
2) Write 200 mails to president of India with copies to Governor of state and media, the journalist Mita Kapur and if possible state police. Fax the mail to president to local police stations or commissioner of police. One can find fax numbers in state online telephone directories.
presidentofindia(at)rb(dot)nic(dot)in

3)
4)
5)
6).......

#85
Deepti Lamba
URL
October 16, 2007
02:24 PM

T, I know the head of a woman's group in Delhi. I will try and get her to talk to her sister organization in Rajasthan about this matter.They are best equipped to deal with these matters and if I am able to make any headway I will report about it on this thread.



#86
temporal
URL
October 16, 2007
02:42 PM

dee

that would be nice

one small step at a time

#87
Sumanth
October 16, 2007
02:57 PM

What is the long term solution? One can not wait for another thousand women to get raped and then denied justice.

1) Police Reforms.
2) Judicial Reforms so that trials can be completed quickly.
3) Women to carry weapons in street just like Sikhs to deter molestors. If sikhs can do it, why can not women?
4) Campaign for severe Punishment to policemen and police women, who take bribes to refuse complaints by poor.

We can talk about roads and infrastructure.
But, a society can not run, if the law enforcement system is corrupt and gets bought by rich and influential.

The Union Government has to bring bills in parliament to clean up the law enforcement system immediately with highest priority.

Government evades because people and even media tolerate the excesses by police.

#88
temporal
URL
October 16, 2007
03:15 PM

sumanth sahib:

this is not your forte

please go and tend to hurt egos there


;)

#89
B Shantanu
URL
October 16, 2007
03:23 PM

@ Sumanth: "What is the long term solution?"

I am glad you asked...Everything you mention: corrupt police, incompetent judiciary, somnolent media etc etc are symptomatic of a deeper malaise...

To fix these, you need to think about the distortions in the system and how does one begin a systemic overhaul.

You may want to begin by reading this:

http://satyameva-jayate.org/2007/09/14/fixing-the-system/

#90
Sumanth
October 16, 2007
04:01 PM

Single decision in parliament is enough to start the police reforms that are pending since long.

Another consensus in parliament will lead to judicial reforms.

But, is anyone demanding them?

I agree things are multi-dimensional.

But, one has to hit ruthlessly at the issues to get them through. Just intellectual discussions will not help.

If police reforms have to happen, then people have to flood the speaker, politicians, parliamentary standing committees, with mails, faxes and letters. This has to be brought within first 5 high priority issues. That can only happen with inspiration and determination.

Are people interested in police reforms inspired?

Do they see with reforms how many Para Devis can be saved from abuse?

If yes, then why do not they create focused campaigns, load videos into YouTube, make media go through them.

Too many excuses of police being underpaid are made in media. Is India so poor that it can not even pay policemen a decent salary?

Unless police force is reformed and disciplined, we can do nothing.

"Knowledge makes no difference. What is needed in action. Too many books are written. Too much is discussed."

If politicians are not allowed to sleep in peace, they have no choice but reform the police.

2000 to 3000 highly inspired people can do this.

Just demand "police reforms" daily in media, in blogs, mails to politicians, bureaucrats and NGOs.

The other way is to analyse:
"Too much Analysis leads to Paralysis."

#91
Sumanth
October 16, 2007
04:16 PM

Often, it can be impossible to go to the root. So, it is important to keep hitting one part of system hard enough that it gets propagated to the rest of the system.

Single decision in parliament is enough to start the police reforms that are pending since long.

Another consensus in parliament will lead to judicial reforms.

But, is anyone demanding them?

I agree things are multi-dimensional.

But, one has to hit ruthlessly at the issues to get them through. Just intellectual discussions will not help.

If police reforms have to happen, then people have to flood the speaker, politicians, parliamentary standing committees, with mails, faxes and letters. This has to be brought within first 5 high priority issues. That can only happen with inspiration and determination.

Are people interested in police reforms inspired?

Do they see with reforms how many Para Devis can be saved from abuse?

If yes, then why do not they create focused campaigns, load videos into YouTube, make media go through them.

Too many excuses of police being underpaid are made in media. Is India so poor that it can not even pay policemen a decent salary?

Unless police force is reformed and disciplined, we can do nothing.

"Knowledge makes no difference. What is needed in action. Too many books are written. Too much is discussed."

If politicians are not allowed to sleep in peace, they have no choice but reform the police.

2000 to 3000 highly inspired people can do this.

Just demand "police reforms" daily in media, in blogs, mails to politicians, bureaucrats and NGOs.

The other way is to analyse:
"Too much Analysis leads to Paralysis."

#92
A.K.Rathor
October 16, 2007
06:24 PM

I see only one solution to such problems!!!

Police and Judicial Reforms.

Govt. is not putting enough money deliberately in Judiciary and almost 50% of the Bench at HC level is vacant in all states.

Forget about increasing the number of Judges at lower, Session and HC level, courts are running only with 50% capacity.

Govt. is more interested in increasing the number of MPs !!!

With low salary, most of the Police force are either feeling down or are "forced corrupt".

Imagine when you start getting verdicts in 30 days.

Unless until we have fast trials in mass with both mentioned reforms, crime along with misuse of law will not subside!!!

What every one wants and deserves is a fair trial and quick verdict to move on in life and not the trauma for decades!!!

#93
Sumanth
October 17, 2007
02:45 AM

One has to hold on to a single issue and keep pestering the politicians continuously.

When severe punishment is given to erring policemen, the system will fall in place.

#94
Jawahara
URL
October 17, 2007
03:58 AM

I would say that if enough people really cared in India to take on the police and the judiciary these incidents could be lessened somehow. Sadly I don't see that happening.

#95
Sirius
October 17, 2007
10:17 AM

Sumanth, imagine this : You area woman, and in the place of Para. What would you do?

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