Let's Talk About Sex - No, Thank You, We're Desi

Well "sex" is pretty personal topic and therefore not many freely talk about it. But thankfully I am not one of them. ;-)

You know, whenever we discuss the 'm' word, I often get told off by friends for paying too much emphasis on the 'looks' of the opposite sex. While I do understand that good nature, education, financial standing, etc are very important...I also firmly believe that I don't want to spend the rest of my life doing 'it' with the lights off.

I think it's equally important that you are physically attracted to the person you have an intimate relationship with.

Is the 'm' word the same that smallsquirrel refers to in the article? I guess not:)

A couple of years ago, I read Sudhir Kakkar's "Intimate Relations: Exploring Indian Sexuality". Sudhir has deep insights into Indian sexuality and his presentation is readable yet professional. It has all the answers. Go buy it squirrel, you'll enjoy it.

- Deepa

SS, I know repressed people and I know those with healthy sexual habits. Its a mixed bag. Some would prefer I'd keep my trap shut and not put my stories on DC or even write eroticism on my blog. They would rather I'd disappear from the face of this earth than acknowledge that they know a person like me who writes eroticism.

But on DC while a few have attacked me for putting up sexually explicit or violent stories others have come and defended my right to do so and they have been both men and women.

Most women aren't comfortable with their bodies let alone their sexuality. We have chained ourselves in a vicious repressed cycle and only we can get ourselves out of it.

I don't believe in the line- There isnt a frigid women just an incapable man.

One needs to have enough brains to question the old auntyji - sex is dirty- myth and enough self esteem to demand what's her right.

But some will continue to live in their repressed shells scared of what people may say instead of enjoying the gifts nature has so generously bequeathed them with

Damn, now I wanna know what the M word is :(

A few months ago when I put up my article about the female sexuality explored in Mira Nair movies I received a lengthy email from an Indian person (guy/girl) who asked me why I was obsessed with sex :) Heehee. They even went on to tell me how it would benefit me if I were to discard these lustful thoughts and think of sex only as a means of procreation. Several Hindu scriptures were quoted to aid my case of sexual depravity :D Amused me no end.

Writing about the artistic exploration of female sexuality is equated to nymphomania apparently.

****Now coming to your questions Smallsquirrel*****

It is a nice discussion and although I seriously doubt men on DC will actually come forth and answer some of your questions, I sincerely hope they give those questions some thought.

I personally think that waiting for the other person to just magically know or guess what it is you like in bed doesn't help the sex life. I know girls who think that being pretty is somehow all they have to do to account towards foreplay. After that it is the man's business to get it up and over with. Creativity, fun, adventure are rarely incorporated and since it is not a topic for discussion among average desi women, nobody picks up tricks or what I like to call bed-gimmicks through such exchanges :)

But what is more disturbing is the cycle that couples fall into (irrespective of nationality): once children come along they stop making time for themselves. One cannot blame them, it is a demanding job, I know. But I think it is imperative that every couple, if they can afford it, make some time for romance where the kids can spend time with the grandparents or with a babysitter. Without romance sex can become perfunctory. It shouldn't.

I am a hopeless romantic. I think that anything devoid of passion, spontaneity, creativity and adventure is very routine. The "no time for love" excuse needs some fixing.

I agree with Deepti. It is as much the woman as the man who needs to be forthcoming about her sexual needs.

Although scarily enough I have met many a desi man who fancies the "virginal, shy, chaste" girl image where the woman is supposed to squirm in bed, coyly as she is being mauled. In such cases being bold and outright about one's sexuality is just plain unwelcome. I think therefore that trouble in bed can be a glaring symptom of other issues within the marriage.

ss:

talk!

sheesh you must be kiddin'

we don't talk about it
we don't think about it

(yeah yeah ...all those dancing in the rain sequences are fantasies)

and

we certainly don't do it


and

if we do it (argghhh)

we're prim and proper
like we wear formal sarees
and gold jewelery
and lots of glass bangles
(the neighborhood ought to share in our fun baba)

ah!
now i see you want only women to discuss this shared activity

ok so like i do the disappearing act;)

The day when we get to discussing our sex lives openly in India - wow. I'll probably be dead by then. And Smallsquirrel, I have to say this: the questions you've posed are way too advanced for us in India. (Yep, even for me, to be able to freely address them in this forum. And I consider myself pretty open, at least with friends). Forget sex, when a bunch of us women share a room sometimes, during a workshop or during our travels, most of them are embarrassed to even change in front of each other and need to run to the bathroom to shed their clothes. The fear of and/aversion to being seen naked, runs deep. Like Wilhelm Reich I'm convinced that sexual repression is at the root of our neurosis - and also the aggressive behavior we often see in India.

saakshi... by "m" word I am guessing you mean marriage, not masturbation, right? :)

deepa... I will look it up, thank you

deepti... it *is* a mixed bag. certainly no society is homogeneous in this regard. and as you say it is not all up to the man. a man cannot please a woman who is too terrified to open up to her own sexuality. conversely, a woman is not likely to open up and try anything for a man who disregards her feelings. both have to make an effort

aditi.. yes, I am afraid that I will somehow be labeled a typical western whore for writing this, but I am sure if/when it happens I will somehow survive :) I do not know why it is that men get all neurotic when women talk about sex. but yes, the puritanical types are the worst. there is a middle ground somewhere between repression and depravity.... LOL! I do think that if women talked more amongst themselves, like you have said, they might learn that it is OK to experiment and be OK with themselves sexually.

I am not saying that in the US I used to talk at length and graphically all the time with friends about sex. but I did have friends that I could ask things if I wanted to or needed to... and that made my life so much easier.

as for what happens when you have kids. well, sometimes there just isn't time. there just sometimes are not enough hours in the day, and when there is one, you just want to have a shower or make a phone call or take a nap. But yes, that is how the romance slowly slips away,and one should try to guard against that. but it's not as easy as you make it sound. one does not feel romantically inclined when one has baby vomit all in one's hair.

temporal... hee! no I *want* men to talk too!

uma... you might not talk about them here but at least you'll think about them. that is good enough! I don't want to force people out of their comfort zone, I just want people to think about these issues and think about if they are happy and if their partners are happy.

the thing I really want people to think about is this... I do not think the men are repressed at all. I have met plenty of men here who are more than in touch with their own sexuality and are willing to share it with everyone and anyone. ;)

So then why are many women in such a state? is it because in response to these men, mothers try to protect their daughters by steering them away from sex completely? and as aditi said, do men really prefer the chaste version of the woman who shies away and seems repulsed by sex? who would want a partner that seems put off by sex. I agree that is the stereotype we see in the old movies, but to me that seems a step away from rape, no? like he knows she wants it even though she says no? ew~!

adi and ss:

thanks for the invite;)

let me get my unscientific ball rolling with a desi-man dichotomy (no bad pun intended)

they act all so "normal" here before marriage and in relationships with women (mostly goris)

then a timer-clock clicks and they want a professional, coy indian bride

there must be something in THAT fire...as they make the seven rounds, they shed their frankness, honesty (in sexual mores and matters) and revert back to being uptight

:)

ps:

oh i wanted to add this

this may not endear me to desi man...but...it is as if they also shed respect during those rounds...'self' respect AND respect for their partners...

and please...am not talking about the few decent desi couples it has been my honour to know who defy this stereotype...and yes, i won't mention their names

so what you're saying is that desi men want to behave like freaks with firangs then settle down with desi women?

hmmm... yes, well, I have seen that behavior. I mean it's not much different than what men do within their own cultures anyway... they will date women they will never bring home to mommy just to get some action, then they will settle down with their ideal.

I don't think that is wrong if the women know that is the case. but I have seen a lot of desis lie to white women about their relationships, then turn around and get an arranged marriage and not tell the long-term girlfriend until it's practically a done deal. That is shitty.

But getting back to the point. Why would you not want the best of both worlds? Why not a desi babe who also is comfortable with her sexuality?

ss:

hmmmmmm

let me tackle this another way...the core issue is one of self respect...when a person has self respect it shows in their dealings with others

open, equal and if it is a close relationship then no holds barred

but a majority of desis i have seen here give off the appearance of being successful and confident and full of respect but deep down their lurks a mamma's boy...this latter is the cause of much maligned misadventures...they inadvertently inculcate a confused boutlook...they live here and want to belong there...

adi you and others can confirm my suspicions that the desi mama's boy is never really dead;)

what this translates is a certain lack of respect extended their partners...the well of tradition cannot be filled with libertarian waters...hence the dichotomy

the desi woman who is more sensible and accommodating also falls prey to this dichotomy ...more so if she lives there

where is "here" and "there"? :)
pls clarify!

oh sorry

here is north america

there is where you are:)

SS

I am sure what you say is reflective of society in general. You will also be surprised to note that men are equally cagey about talking sex.
However, it is also true that things are changing (as reflected in the many 'DUREX' surveys).

Thirdly, I don't think what you hear in a lunch room is necessarily a reflection of what the women might actually be doing in their bedrooms.
The whole idea that none of the women in the room are beyond the missionary position is kind of weird. Sounds like a lie to me.
I recall an earlier discussion in these forums about personal questions- Just like asking somebody 'what they do' is regarded as a personal question in many countries, discussing sex is a no go area with most Indians. For all you know, your 5 Indian friends are having a ball at a 'Gori's' expense. Pretending they know nothing and yet..........


rgds

T

I think we will have to distinguish between what people talk in public and what they do in their bedrooms. Men and women in middle class homes are extremely advanced. All you have to do is visit a few web-sites and yahoo webcams after 10 in the night......

Additionally, surveys (for whatever they are worth) portray an entirely different picture.

Anybody who has been to college in recent years (last 5) will vouch for the level of pre-marital sex.

Again, we need to differeniate between what people talk about and what people do in their bedrooms.....just because we dont talk about it does not mean we are not good at it...|:-)

rgds

Hey, how about talking about poverty before talking about sex? ;P

Smallsquirrel: Upon reading Chandra's views on the matter I suddenly realized something else: I don't think men have a clue about how much women discuss things. They seem to think that women, similar to men, bottle up the details of their sex life. Most desi men no matter how forward won't discuss their sexual relationship with their friends. Some guys even say: "Discussing how hot a girl is, watching porn together is different...but sex with one's wife, that is touchy territory even among the best of friends".

Women operate very differently. If their sex lives are bad or inadequate, they will bring it up in conversations with their female friends...even if they don't bring it up with their husbands.

I know I will get a lot of flak for saying this but I think that the average desi man thinks sex is for him (pls. note I use the term "average" and one has to include the rural populace too). Women are supposed to be shy, reluctant, squirming virgins who just offer frail resistance to his bedroom overtures. Now guess what...men might not know this but if they are bad in bed chances are that your wife's best friend knows exactly what you are doing wrong or even right :) you do a good job in bed one night, very likely that the best friend will hear about it.

I know a bunch of girls, who inspite of not being like my bosom buddies will still reveal suprisingly detailed accounts of their sex life. But when I ask them if they've told their husband about their qualms in bed they shudder and say its best not to dent the male ego. "Nah, he'd be so devastated if he knew I speak about what he does in bed", is the standard reply. Women fake orgasms and are too afraid to let their hubbies know that they are dissatisfied for fear of hurting the guy.

Chandra, I agree with a lot of what you've said but just one more thing:

You say: "just because we dont talk about it does not mean we are not good at it"

True but not talking about it makes it harder to find out whether you are good/ bad at it. It reduces the level of intimacy if one is uncomfortable talking about it with their partner.

SS you only spoke to five women.Those five women are not representative of the 600 million women we have in India..

Most desi men no matter how forward won't discuss their sexual relationship with their friends. Some guys even say: "Discussing how hot a girl is, watching porn together is different...but sex with one's wife, that is touchy territory even among the best of friends".

Thats coz they don't want their friends imagining what their wives are like in the sack;)

Women on the other hand become agony aunts and start giving tips. They don't want to imagine their friends sweating it out with their hubbies or boyfriends, men on the other hand can't help visualizing.

Now I am going to get slammed for my pop psychology..heh

Deepti: I actually agree. In fact it also fits in with the general trend. Women speak about things, men bottle it up.

Also, discomfort during sex at least the physical aspect is primarily a female problem. In fact, people don't know this but factors discussed in this article could result in a condition called Vaginismus where vaginal muscles automatically spasm and constrict upon or before penetration causing deep pain. And guess what are the leading causes of Vaginismus? Read through the following (from Netdoctor):

1. A restrictive upbringing, in which the woman was brought up to view sex as nasty or dirty.

2. an upbringing in which the woman was given the idea that the vagina is very narrow and so sex must be very painful.

3. a background where rape or childhood sexual abuse has taken place. Experiences like these understandably make women fearful of sex and of being hurt.

4. painful vaginal infections.

5. unease with their partner - perhaps at an unconscious level.

I guess such woman are easily labeled as 'Frigid' which is sad. But I do think with our generation things are changing.

There is another myth that plagues our society where the sexual abuse of male children is played down, nor are the long term effects taken into consideration.

dee and adi:

Thats coz they don't want their friends imagining what their wives are like in the sack;)

and

Women speak about things, men bottle it up.

your honor:

may i be allowed to make the following submission on behalf of the weaker sex?

* 'wives' no...but they do share juicy details about their g-fs

* women do share details with other women BUT do they share them with their spouses?

so

it boils down to sacred marriage!

somehow, it bottles up men and women in different ways?

chandra.. I did not say I thought these women were representative of all Indian women, so...

and no, chandra, these women were not trying to pull the wool over the little firang's eyes. I know you think I am dumb, but you've clearly not met me.

close-up... um, right. I said that myself. I brought these women up to start a dialog. NOW DISCUSS!

aditi and dee... I think you've addressed something important there... something impt and true. and men want to think we do not compare notes because then.... well, the cat would be out of the bag.

temporal... do women share details with their spouses? you mean about sex with them? or sex with others? me confused. :)

Smallsquirrel: The dumb firang is a stereotype adhered to by most desis who are insecure unnecessarily. You know how girls who have never worn a short skirt keep pulling the hem over their thighs and actually end up drawing more attention due to their obvious discomfort. This desi tendency to keep defending issues that are obvious even to other desis but are offensive if a "firang" points them out, is denial of the worst kind.

You have the courage to bring up a discussion about female sexuality and the dealings of this delicate subject in a foreign land. That to me is admirable.

However, you will always find a few Indians who in their zeal to defend their flaws end up making fools of themselves and exposing their own petty complexes. (....and I am NOT refering to Chandra here: he provides rationale and although we've butt heads in the past I think he does contribute towards the discussion in some way)

Some of these commentators haven't shown up on this thread yet; comment #20 came closest :)...but it may happen. Brace yourself!

Deepti: Thats coz they don't want their friends imagining what their wives are like in the sack;)

Chandra: You are absolutely RIGHT!!!!!.

SS: I don't think men have a clue about how much women discuss things. They seem to think that women, similar to men, bottle up the details of their sex life.

Chandra: I thought your whole post is about women in India having poor sex lives. Anyway, it is not me who thinks women in India dont like to talk about their sex lives with others. Multiple world bank, NACO and NFHS surveys indicate the same. The same is true about men too.

SS: True but not talking about it makes it harder to find out whether you are good/ bad at it. It reduces the level of intimacy if one is uncomfortable talking about it with their partner

Chandra: Hi, I am not suggesting it is a good or bad thing. Each one for himself/herself. There is no single way. As long as they know what they do and are happy about it.....

Lastly, I dont think you are dumb. But I dont think the Indian women around you are stupud either.....

rgds

Sorry....i think the comments in my post were Aditi's not SS. apologies

rgds

aditi... hee, yeah, well... hee. oh I am prepared alright

chandra... I never said they were dumb, dear. just that those particular women were not satisfied.

as a matter of fact, Indian women are very shrewd. very shrewd indeed. one must be to survive in this complex country. but point of note... I am surviving here too. :)

but these women DID talk about it with me, and I think they did so because I had the courage to move to a new place and not only survive but thrive. they saw me take risks and thought maybe they might take some too.

Hai tauba! If Mr. Lion hears about your discussion, he would be the first to remove a morcha saying "you people are corrupting the minds of young women". ;-)

Anyways, no I didn't mean Masturbation, I meant Marriage.

Smallsquirrel, sure. I think we do need to start talking about sex which is a highly taboo subject. It takes a while before people open up on the theme and I guess generally a person needs to feel secure and accepted before he/she starts talking. But good for you, that you brought it up here.

i have a feeling like talking about sex in public forums is just wasting of time and energy.But people here are discussing well.So i like to contribute(???),hmm...better to say just sharing my confusion and stupidity with others.

Men about their girl friends, and their affairs with friends.I have many friends who tells about their experiences.because men proud to say that they have gf.

But it comes to "wife",story will change.Discussing about his wife in front of others!!!???....can't imagine.really men don't like this.Because men don't want other men, to imagine how his wife behaves in bed. "she is mine, you don't have the authority to, at least think about her",that is our feeling.not bad isn't it?

And also men treats their friends wife as "sister"(if they have manners).I always joke with my friend like, mere hone wale bhabhi kaisa hai? kab shaadi kar rahe ho tum?.So no way to talk about his bedroom life.

But one thing is true.If men face problems in their bedroom life, they will ask questions about that and seek advices from friends and elders.But,instead of asking .."why my wife is behaving like this, they ask..why women behave like this?". They asks a general questions about that problem without revealing that, he is facing same problem.

And men like to read and listen about sex.they gathers enough information about that.It proved by some studies also.(it says many men are far advanced that woman in knowledge about safe sex.)

so saying like, men don't discuss about bedroom life is not a valid argument.

comes to woman, i don't think that they are that much innocent.I read many surveys about pre-marital sex..how many girls have that, and many boys have that.

ravi... so you're saying that you believe that men are more advanced in their knowledge about safe sex? I just don't buy that, sorry. And I don't think that anyone here said that men don't talk about sex, they said what you said earlier in your response... which is that men might not like talking to their friends about sex with their wife! but really, no one buys the "I have this friend..." approach to information digging, as everyone knows the "friend" doesn't exist. :)

but seriously. so men like to read about sex. but looking at porn does not equal reading up in reputable literature about safe sex! LOL.

also, if men knew so much about safe sex, then there should not be an STDs, right? Oh wait, they just know about it, they don't actually PRACTISE it... hmmmm.....

SS

that survey said like that, if you want proof i will give.about STD, yeah..there are men who don't know, or don't practice in some situations.it's true.no need to explain about those situations.every body know.

And i never said looking some skillfully "acted" videos are reputable literature.But men like to read and watch that in magazines and TV programs.good number of weekly magazines have a separate column for this.

But one think, please SS don't tell me that men don't read about that.because i know what myself and guys of my age do.

Hey SS,
Welcome to the complexity of India :)

I read another dc the other day who spoke about how "parents stay with their children as babysitters for their grandchildren and the children don't think twice about their parents love/sex life and have no qualms about keeping them apart"

That ties in to your post too. See, in Indian culture until the last generation or so, the only purpose of a marital union was to procreate and produce children. Once that was accomplished, then the couple stayed together to provide a home for these same children. This was the sole purpose of marriages being arranged by families.

men/women did not choose their spouses, they were chosen for them by parents/elders. Sex was never spoken about to the woman unless she got lucky and had an elder cousin/sister or young aunt who might have hurriedly whispered the very basics of what to expect.

Imagine a woman who has never been alone with a man or even spoken to one in private suddenly finds herself faced with this man whom she has married a few hours ago alone in a bedroom. The man in most cases would be someone who is just happy that he has a legitimate outlet for his hormonal needs..... this gives you a glimpse of what marriage and the initial stages of sex in majority of relationships in India was until a few years ago.

A woman in a situation like this would be extremely hard pressed to find sex pleasurable and hence how could she tell her own daughters anything about it. The guilt and shame just keeps passing through the generations of women.

Nowadays things are changing. Some scenarios are really scary. I've spoken to high schoolers who confess they are having sex. Most of them are doing this out of peer pressure, to be with the "in" crowd, its normalised on tv/movies, but even most of these girls don't find it pleasurable at all. There is an overwhelming sense of guilt in most of them. In cases of girls who have been sexually abused at younger ages, there is a complete disconnectedness from the situation. There are there physically but far away mentally. (I have worked as a counsellor with young girls, this para was based on that work)

But there is a silver lining. Its not that all arranged marriages fall into the above trap. Its just that a higher percentage of love marriages manage to avoid this trap. The couples are committed to each other, they respect each other and have a desire to keep their partners happy. This is the starting point for Indian relationships to have good sex lives (equally fun & pleasurable for both the partners)

I think I may have left a few dots unconnected in the above ramblings :) blame it on lack of sleep. leave me any questions in these comments, if I haven't been lucid, I'll reply when i get back online :)

Being sexually aware is one thing and preaching free sex in the garb of empowerment is another. Along with sex comes responsibilities, trying to understand your own as well as your partner's emotional and physical needs. Sex is known as "love making" and is not usually described as "fucking" or "humping".This is because most people want to have an intense physical relation with a person with whom they are emotionally strongly bonded.
But in recent times, we have seen in the media, a deliberate attempt by vested interests to push in among teenagers promiscuity and sex without the accompanying emotional bonding.Such attitudes are glorified and justified by various clichés. These people who propagate such views are not experts in sexual matters and in human psychology or teen psychology. This has resulted in great harm and most teenagers have been vociferously encouraged to go in for wild sex without fully understanding the implications thereof.
More and more psychologists are today coming out and saying that these teenagers are not able to cope up with it and are getting disoriented, impulsive, irresponsible and undisciplined and are emerging as drifters who are unable to have a committed and steady relationship when they grow older. Who will be responsible for their plight and pushing them into this quagmire?

I think that what often confuses the issue is that we are caught in a tangle of conflicting notions about how it should be. We are aware of some of what we feel but a large part of us does act from a subconscious layer so that we end up saying things we don't really mean.

Traditionally eg. as a woman you are supposed to be chaste, shy and discreet. But every second ad you come across and the women in soaps, especially American soaps indicate that you are supposed to be a tigress in bed and to have thousands of men lusting after you. You're supposed to be thin/not so thin/confident/wide-eyed, innocent and savvy all at the same time.

I think there is a part of us that wants it all and wants to be seen as doing the right thing and being the right way. You want to be seen as a seductress and at the same time you don't want the flak which comes with it. I'm a little less confused now about what to do, than I was as a teenager and a young adult but I wouldn't say all that much less. How many people are really able to share the truth of how it is for them sexually? When a woman talks about her sex life with abandon how do you know it's for real or whether she is showing off because that's how she would like it to be? If a woman says nothing does that mean she's frigid?

To some extent a discussion in a forum like this makes way for a real life discussion, which is what I think we need, to become clear about what we need/want/ and then be able to express those needs. But it can't really be a substitute. Because clarity on such taboo themes by and large happens in a space where you can feel safe and know that the people with you genuinely want to learn about something together with you and will support you no matter how you happen to be - frigid, shy, oversexed (is there such a thing?!) whatever, so that you can find the right balance in yourself.

uma... very very good thoughts. really. it does need to be a safe environment for people to talk... one that is not about comparison or boasting or judgment, otherwise people will either not talk or will feel pressured to make something up to fit in (or a host of other reasons, really).

xanadu... well, I wasn't really trying to address teenagers here. this is more about what people do in committed adult relationships. I agree, there is a problem everywhere with teens, but this is an ongoing issue. and really, it's an issue for adults, too. when people enter into intimacy before they are ready, it's never a good thing. this goes for adults as well. I have friends that are my age and will do stupid things, and it effect them no less than it did at 17. not that I am against premarital sex, because I am not. what I am against is people having sex who are nowhere near mature enough to handle it... every aspect of it, from the act itself, to the impact it has emotionally, to the relationship and intimacy, to the possible consequences of sex afterwards.

kim... that is also a good point. maybe we have a limbo generation. the one woman in my group who was the most advanced knowledge wise was from a love marriage. but I do think that people in arranged marriages, some of them, learn to have satisfying sex lives. I think the process of how the marriages has transformed a bit, and in a lot of places the people have more say about the partner they are hooked up with, too. But not for all, certainly. anyway, yes, and this generation still has parents who fall into the category you mention, so there is still no one to tell them what to expect and how to fix it.

ravi... I think there are just as many well educated men as women. I do not think education is a gender thing. :)

Documentary by R. Roy called When Friends Meet - see it to get an idea of male sexuality issues in the common man. Or go to Jama Masjid area on a weekend day and see what all is sold in the name of aphrodisiacs!

There is a lot of curiosity and very little real source of information among the uneducated. The educated have resources in books and magazines.

Women do not discuss things very openly in India. Men do talk in hypotheticals with their buddies - and yes even about their wives and performance in the bedroom. But all educated women read and know about frigidity, orgasms, and other such clinical details of the sexual process. I have no idea where the original poster found this bunch of educated women who thought sex was a duty! Every girl in India is reading Mills and Boon romances and those have moved way past the 'ending with a kiss' finale!

neela... I don't think you can say *all* educated women read about sexuality... that's not a good assumption about any country! The women I worked with all worked for a multinational consultancy, and they are exactly as I describe them. And I know many women of that age, especially ones over the age of 30, who fit that bill. And I don't know anyone who reads Mills and Boon for real. They joke about it... but... maybe you're meaning younger people. up to 25 or so, maybe.

Also, knowing about the clinical aspects of sex does not mean that you are comfortable with it or enjoy it. Just because I know I have a clitoris does not mean I feel comfortable letting someone near it. Also it doesn't ensure that my partner knows (or cares) where it is, or that I feel comfortable telling him. Theory and practice are worlds apart, and that is what I was also trying to explain.

The population of India is 1.12 billion...that is 1.12 followed by NINE zeroes....that's a LOT of hanky panky....behind closed doors we are hot.....the guys are hot.....the girls are even hotter...get that ??...indians are hot!....RED HOT!!!!

"And men, have you ever given thought to your wife's sexuality?"
-------

No. Indian men do not have that skill. They are yet to grow up. It is only British, who carved all the statues in sexual positions and oral sex in Khajuraho and Konark. Indian women never think of "male organ". They only believe in rubbing banana paste on "Shiva Linga", while worshipping it everyday.
-------

In India, "Kaama, Khrodha, Moha.....etc" (Lust, Anger, attachment etc. etc.) are considered something that degrages a person(male or female) since ages. I do not know whether it is right or wrong. But, that is what India is.

May be, Indian mythological recommendation to both men and women would have been exactly opposite had India and Russia changed their places.

In some countries (with cold weather) people need a constant feed of porn in main TV channels to maintain their population.

Btw, if a man ignorantly shows any pornograpic material to his wife (to teach her about much desired Oral sex), the Indian DV act considers it "domestic violence".

-------
-------


Sadness, anger and some amount of blame on "environment" seem to be three great virtues for social transformation in any topic in today's world.

No social transformation can ever be achieved with anger, blame or sadness.

A traditional Indian woman can find equal amount of sadness, anger, when she comes finds that 16 year old girls have sex with different guys in different months in a year in some places in the world. For her, it is no different from prostitution.

There are no absolute truths. Cultures and societies are different. It takes only a few minutes to judge intolerantly.

-----
I feel, being judgemental and looking everything in right and wrong prism, and getting angry or sad about it, is the root cause of all problems in this world.

---------
There is no need to "fix" the world in an impatient angry manner.

Because, such fixes can be much more dangerous the core issue itself.
---------

Transitions in society happen at a certain pace. When the world gets smaller, things can contrast and there can be temptations to judge situations harshly and an urge to "fix" the contrasts.


Intolerance is unhealthy.
Subtle intolerance is worse. There is nothing wrong with Indian women. There is nothing wrong with Indian men.

If there is anything wrong with anyone, I bet no will will ever be able to fix it as well. So, many people have tried to fix the world, society and cultures for ages and in that process created more problems.

By the way, one can only see impact of intolerance, when one finds equally intolerant people.
--------------

sumanth:

can i order the same drink...it seems nice;)

(you did say something profound - only am not sure of the contextual relevance of most of it)

[EDITED:BALDERDASH]

kothewali... um, you failed to read the piece. this is not about 20 somethings in call centers with "fuck buddies" which I know happens. this is about people who are a little older and married. and a bit more traditional.

sumanth... a lot to think about there. and I disagree that Indian men do not think about their wives' sexuality. Or that women don't care either.

temporal.. hahahah!

smallsquirrel: do you know what the word "kothewali" means. It may explain why kothewali's idea of sex is skewed so shamefully towards a quick hump at the call center or groping behind the college cafeteria :) Kothewali is like a giesha...but mostly a prostitute.

The writer isn't from the stone ages but your ideas about sexuality sure sound like you were stoned when you put them up for public viewing [EDITED] :)


Sumanth: temporal couldn't have said it better. I wanna be on whatever drug you're on.

And oh, Close-up...shut-up

Neela, romance novels hardly ever give the true picture of what sex is like. And for you to quote Mills &Boon clearly shows that one thing you haven't done yet is have sex or else you wouldn't be quoting fantasies that actually pave way for disappointments for young people.

ya close-up, I got it dude, I am married to one.

go take a cold shower.

Does anyone on this blog actually read before giving the usual knee jerk reaction? Deepti, please continue to think that I am a 16 year old virginal Mills and Boon reader!
1. Granted the young girls read Mills and Boon and the older women make fun of those - BUT were the older women born OLD?
2. Mills and Boon was merely a metaphor - I mean numerous fictional works of that genre.
3. They may raise false hopes and expectations but one thing they DO NOT DO is to tell you it is your duty to allow your husband/partner to have sex with you while you hate it.
4. Most educated women in India do not read? That is news to me!
5. And men do not know what to do to give pleasure to their partners? Educated men? That is even bigger news to me! If anything they read more than the women.

I am really curious about this blog now. Was it created so some could get on a soapbox and vent? Or is it a true blog where all can express their opinion without the loyal cadre swarming in defense of their buddies?

I particularly LOVE what is right above the box I am writing my response in.

"Personal attacks are not allowed. Please read our comment policy."

Can someone explain this policy to Deepti? I see nothing in my comment that justifies her talking about me and my sexual history and behavior.

Are you saying Indian girls should know be asking their potential suitors their dick sizes before going out with them ?

now*

neela, I think what deepti reacted to is that you had a lot of sweeping generalizations in your comment "all educated women read" "every girl in india reads mills and boon" ...

go back to my comment in #40.

kela... if you cannot contribute anything reasonable then please shut up. what does dick size have to do with anything here?

SS,
Liked your article. Here is a humorous take on the survey results :

http://greatbong.net/2007/10/04/lau-lau-lau/

It has some gems you will identify with now that you have access to Indian newspapers/TV.

ss i thought the size of your dick defined how much pleasure you gave your partner,i think this is totally relevant in the context of what you have written.

* that should have appropriately read as " a man's dick" not your dick obviously he he

oh dear... you're not serious are you? penis size has very little to do with how satisfied a woman is with her partner. that is the man's hangup. what matter most to a woman is intimacy and that the man cares about pleasing her. someone can have a huge penis and be a terrible lover, because they are selfish and boring. and someone can have a small penis and be a great lover because they are attentive and interested.

GG... just read the post and I think I peed myself laughing. is that your blog?

ss you seemed to suggest that female orgasm was the defining point of a satisfying sexual life .However according to experts around 30 % of women dont achieve orgasms and also what exaclty is a female orgasm is not entirely clear,some have muscle spasms and contractions others feel nothing at all,some ejaculate and some don't.Same with penis size,different women have different things to say.So by suggesting a woman should base her marital/love/sex life on orgasms would leave quite a few people disappointed/depressed i would think

Smallsquirrel,

Until comment 50, when Kela showed up, this seemed to be the standard article about people in a conservative society having trouble opening up about sex. Unasked was, "should they?" - that they should seemed implicit in the article. Now that the ruler has been brought out (how many inches do you have, dude?), and someone is really arguing over what defines satisfactory sex, this could get interesting.

exactly -"should they?" what is sex after all ,do we perverse it/indulge in it like most westerners...is this the ideal ?

I think it is an interesting twist :) albeit a bumpy one (because I honestly don't know when/where SS suggested that an orgasm was the defining point of sexual satisfaction or that women should "base" their marital lives on the same!!). Anyways...

Sex is often thought of as an isolated act whareas it has so many parameters that define it: emotional involvement, intimacy levels, other aspects of the relationship, control, individual temperaments (some partners just don't like to experiment or be spontaneous).

All these factors make the size issue seem trivial.

A boring/ controlling partner, a distant or even resentful relationship, lack of emotional involvement or passion can all make a big dick practically painful.

I think that each person decides their own defining point when it comes to being sexually satisfied. But this article is probably not about that. To me it seems more about communication, the kind of relationship and the mindset that govern the fate of a sexual relationship. These factors operate behind the curtains at a sub-conscious level perhaps but they are far more important and tougher to resolve or to work around than size.

From a woman's perspective, it is almost scary to imagine a relationship where the sex is a merely a disconnected act devoid of communication, passion or mutual gratification...and yet the organ is extremely well-endowed.

Smallsquirrel,
It's a bit late in the game, but I really liked your post.
There is a subtle detail that Chandra was almost onto-the women in question may not be consciously deceiving you, but they may be deceiving themselves (consciously or otherwise). The notion of sex as sin is deeply ingrained in our psyche and I wudn't be surprised if people denied their sexuality to get around it. I'd seen a talk show (anyone remember wht the one with Faarooq Sheikh as anchor was called?)where a hakeem insisted he'd never masturbated in his entire life.
I, like most of the audience on that show, doubt it.

SS,
I do hope you gave these unfortunate, sexually repressed women from the land of Kamasutra, a rollicking lesson in fellatio and did your best to educate the natives to the ways of the west.

I don't know why people keep repeating "land of Kamasutra" or Khajuraho to prove a point. India was far too pluralistic to consider these symbols to be representative of overall culture during the times.

Many conservative Indians back then would have heard of neither and would have considered it an insult to be associated with either of these.

kela... as aditi said, I never said that orgasm defined successful or good sex, or that it was the foundation of a good marriage.

what I do think is that if you are a woman and you have never had an orgasm there are a few things wrong. the first is that you've obviously been told that exploring your own body is bad. second, if you are married you do not have good communication with your spouse. third, you might not know where your clitoris is, and on top of that, if you do... your husband might not.

men tend not to think orgasm is important for women, but find me a man who is interested in constantly having sex but NEVER being pleased to orgasm. that just gets annoying. I am not saying all sex has to end that way at all. But it should sometimes.

As Aditi has said, there are many other factors such as intimacy that are very very important.

And Kela, sorry, but there is not much debate about the female orgasm. We all know when we've had one.

arjun... I do not even know what to say to you. that question was just... ridiculous on so many levels.

Ledzius:I don't know why people keep repeating "land of Kamasutra" or Khajuraho to prove a point. India was far too pluralistic to consider these symbols to be representative of overall culture during the times.


Chandra: I never understand why people keep repeating this. The great ASI or other historians have no clue as to why this temple was built or the book written. For all you know the guys who did it were on dope or older versions of Hugh Hefner. Either way, there is no other evidence to suggest that we were doing 48 positions until the victorian age.

well, I have seen such carvings in temples in very rural areas in south india... for example in vokkaleri outside kolar (outside bangalore) there is a temple on top of a hill in a remote area with some such carvings... all kinds of sex education... positions and anatomy, etc....

at ss: so if Deepti disagrees with a general statement I make, it is okay for her to personally attack me? Are you not making general statements in your post?

I suggest that desicritics change their comment policy to read thus:

The desicritics team will express an opinion, you may respond and they are free to personally attack you, howvere none but the desicritic team may indulge in such attacks.

India is the land of the Kamasutra, of Khajuraho. It is also the land of people who do not express themselves much in public. That does not mean they do not know what's what behind their closed bedroom doors.

When I was actually 16 (yes Deepti, at one time I was that age), my parents did not let me visit Khajuraho for fear that it would corrupt me!

neela... I think you're overreacting. many of us face such comments all the time. I did not see what she said to you as a personal attack. I thought it was a very very direct response, and maybe you're not used to such dialog.

I am sorry you also seem to be taking what I said personally and are now making it sound like I think all Indians do not know what to do in the bedroom. that is something I *never* said or implied. I simply started a conversation. sounds like you are not enjoying the debate much.

69 Neela: There isn't any personal attack in the comment otherwise we would've removed the comment. It is a conclusion with a justification for why that inference was made. Following is the elucidation.

Observations:

1. You think that fiction/ Mill & Boons is a guideline for sexual relationships.

2. People who HAVE been in a sexual relationship know that it does not usually adhere to the fanciful world of fiction.

Relevant literature:

1. Sex education and counseling or therapy for couples undergoing intimacy issues would not have existed and therapists would've just handed a few racy novels to couples in need.

Conclusions:
1. You (probably by virtue of your age) have somehow concluded that issues in a sexual relationship result due to a lack of know-how.

So if a survey were to be conducted based on your comment#39, especially this particular remark:

"Every girl in India is reading Mills and Boon romances and those have moved way past the 'ending with a kiss' finale!"

....then the results would show that a significant perecentage of women (especially those who HAVE had sex) would conclude that you have not had sex or are immature.

****(If you would've had sex and were still immature you would've cited Joan Collins books. If you were extremely mature and still haven't had sex then you would've known not to make such an immature statement about things you didn't know about.)

In conclusion #47 by Deepti is not a personal attack, it is a conclusion.

More importantly, WE the authors and editors of this site have learned the hard way what personal attacks are.

Aditi: such a long post as you guys swarm to justify Deepti's personal attack.

Here is what I wrote:
"I have no idea where the original poster found this bunch of educated women who thought sex was a duty! Every girl in India is reading Mills and Boon romances and those have moved way past the 'ending with a kiss' finale!"

The Mills and Boon item was in the context of sex being considered a duty by some educated women. Get it? Or is the problem that I said every young girl has read these books. I stand by that statement - it is highly unlikely that any teenage girl in school (who will eventually grow up to be a professional) has not encountered a few of these.

1. Your presumption that I think M and B is a guide for sexual relationships is wacko, but it does tell girls that they are not a mere vessel for sex. Read the context statement above.

2. People who have been in sexual relationships AND are educated KNOW where to go for problem solving. Did I say anywhere that they use fiction as a guideline?

3. Sex and relationship counseling exist in the Western context BUT for what % of Indian men and women are these available? Do they even exist in India? Does any kind of therapy not carry its own stigma in India? So are you saying that because this kind of therapy exists in the West, people there have more sexual problems? This is the most confused reasoning I have seen.

Issue of sexual relationships are not due to lack of knowhow? But is that not what SS's article started out saying? Women think blah, do not know blah, etc. So Deepti should, of course, conclude that SS is a 16 year old.

"Every girl in India is reading Mills and Boon romances and those have moved way past the 'ending with a kiss' finale!"

Ignore the context - that is a good way to justify a personal attack.

"....then the results would show that a significant perecentage of women (especially those who HAVE had sex) would conclude that you have not had sex or are immature."

Are we talking of those same women who have had sex according to small squirrel but know nothing about it?

"****(If you would've had sex and were still immature you would've cited Joan Collins books. If you were extremely mature and still haven't had sex then you would've known not to make such an immature statement about things you didn't know about.)"

Err - that would be Jackie Collins. In fact you could go one better and ask for Harold Robbins, or even venture beyond that to Henry Miller.

"In conclusion #47 by Deepti is not a personal attack, it is a conclusion. "

NO - its is an attack and flies in the face of your stated policy which seems pathetically hypocritical.

"More importantly, WE the authors and editors of this site have learned the hard way what personal attacks are. "

Obviously you do, I'd say you know first hand by indulging in such attacks.

#72: Neela, hmm maybe YOU didn't get it. Here lemme clarify:

"The Mills and Boon item was in the context of sex being considered a duty by some educated women. Get it? Or is the problem that I said every young girl has read these books. I stand by that statement - it is highly unlikely that any teenage girl in school (who will eventually grow up to be a professional) has not encountered a few of these"

Sure, Lets say everybody has read them. It still doesn't say anything about how much they actually apply it towards expressing their own sexuality. And someone with a bit of (sexual?) maturity would've known that.

"Sex and relationship counseling exist in the Western context BUT for what % of Indian men and women are these available?"

No matter how confused my reasoning is, bringing up Mills and Boons and fiction readings in a discussion about intimacy and sex is daft :)

"But is that not what SS's article started out saying? Women think blah, do not know blah, etc."

Nope, that is NOT the point of this post...but I can see how immaturity would lead one to believe it is.

This is not about whether women KNOW stuff about sex. It is about whether they actually feel inclined to apply it, divulge it or indulge in those activities...whether their relationships provide them with the liberty, the intimacy to freely express their sexualities.

Now lastly,

"Aditi: such a long post as you guys swarm to justify Deepti's personal attack"

Nah, we've never had to defend Deepti. The lady does a fine job of it herself. Here's what I took offense to:

"I am really curious about this blog now. Was it created so some could get on a soapbox and vent? Or is it a true blog where all can express their opinion without the loyal cadre swarming in defense of their buddies?"

This comment questions a credible platform where you are actually given the freedom to state such baseless accusations. It questions us, the authors and editors and accuses us of a biase. I consider THIS a PERSONAL ATTACK by YOU.

Now do we go about editing it? I think I'll just let it stay around so readers get to decide for themselves.

You have taken a comment personally. That does not make it a personal attack.

As for this: "Obviously you do, I'd say you know first hand by indulging in such attacks"

Go read some of our articles. Browse through the comments section. See for yourself what personal attacks really are and who makes them.

This gets more and more interesting!
"It still doesn't say anything about how much they actually apply it towards expressing their own sexuality. And someone with a bit of (sexual?) maturity would've known that."

I WAS NOT talking about expressing their sexual maturity but the idea in the original post that some women think it is their DUTY whether they enjoy it or not to be the sexual objects for their husbands/partners. I think it does not take sexual maturity to understand that - if the intent is otherwise then perhaps the authors needs to express themselves better.

"No matter how confused my reasoning is, bringing up Mills and Boons and fiction readings in a discussion about intimacy and sex is daft :)"

There you go again - calling me daft. I think I will let the non-desicritic swarm decide if that is yet another attack or not. BTW confused is not a slur, daft is a grade school level slur. Surely you can do better than that.

In response to
" This is not about whether women KNOW stuff about sex. "

I quote from the original article

"What eventually became very clear is that although these women were educated (most of them, anyway), and from fairly well-off families, they had only the most narrow views of sexuality possible. There was only one woman in the group who knew a bit more than the rest, but it was in theory only. She had never put what she knew to good use."

I question the platform because on repeat visits and surfing this forum I see no reason to believe that my question is unjustified.

Is questioning this forum an insult or a personal attack? I think a question is never an insult, only an insult is an insult. Upon reading posts on this forum a fair bit I see where some of the insults come from. Hence the question.

To be fair, I think Neela has got a point. Folks who write here, including those from Desicritics team, often say things that they would perhaps hesitate to say in person (or may be not, I may belong to a different generation). Here are some examples in this post alone:

Deepti says

"And for you to quote Mills &Boon clearly shows that one thing you haven't done yet is have sex..."

Aditi says

"If you were extremely mature and still haven't had sex then you would've known not to make such an immature statement about things you didn't know about..."

It doesn't matter how you reached your conclusions about Neela or whether you were entirely right. In a conversation with friends, you may use such tone or words, but if you have met a person only a few times or the first time, would you talk in this way?

Internet provides a kind of immunity from decorum but when one makes such comments it takes away the objectivity from the discussion. It becomes a free for all mud slinging which is totally counter productive.

Neela on other hand is too sensitive. Internet is a different medium and you have to have a thick skin to engage in conversations here.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

Thank you Ravi, for seeing some of what I am trying to say. I too belong to a different generation where you do not immediately attack someone if they raise a point that might disagree with yours. And I am long long past any Mills and Boon phase in my life. The desicritics team has their credentials on public display but they know nothing about mine. To presume that I am some virginal and daft sixteen year old is a personal attack in my book.

I think the response from the originator of this article is less hostile, maybe she sees something in what I said?

Here is another thing I will throw out. Just because some women tell you they are relatively naive, or inexperienced, or dissatisfied, does not automatically mean that is the truth. The article starts out with these women expressing wonder at SS's mangalsutra as she is Italian. I am more of a cynic and think that in India men and women have a somewhat prurient interest in the sex lives of the more "liberated" Westerners. SS should consider that maybe, just maybe, this naivete could be a show so they can get her to open up about her life.

Many of my Western friends who have traveled in India have had random unknown people query them about their sex lives. Co-workers cannot do that, it would be totally bizarre. But they can get information out of you by pretending they need advice, and turning you into an Ask Abby type service.

Ravi, do you know any of us personally to vouch for what you think we may not say face front? Maybe thats how you operate online but as for me I say things as I see fit. What I am in real life is how I am online.

And yes I did call Neela out for her naive statement about Indian women reading Mills and Boon but for you to neglect my anger that she believes that its okay to make trashy romance novels as the bases for real life sex calls shows deliberate insensitivity to the current to the quagmire many urban Indian women find themselves in or plain ignorance

You aren't the first to call out to my credibility or that of the author's. It makes for weak argument to make pot shots when unable to counter with valid argument.

If Neela was well beyond the Mills and Boon stage she wouldnt be making such laughable statements and does go to show she has yet to have sex. Those like me who have active sex lives will tell you that sex is anything but what is written in erotic novels.

I write eroticism and know the difference between fantasy and real life earthy sex, she doesn't. It is as plain as the nose on my face and if she sees it as personal attack - tough cookie- coz there was none intended merely an observation which shows her gullibility on this subject.

Also whats laughable is her pretending to be affronted when she doesnt care two hoots when its comes to being condescending towards small squirrel.

"Ravi, do you know any of us personally to vouch for what you think we may not say face front?"

Of course he does not. But you know me personally so you can make statements about my life!

"And yes I did call Neela out for her naive statement about Indian women reading Mills and Boon"

Are you saying Indian women do NOT read Mills and Boon? And the basis for that statement is? Maybe you should visit your old school and check out what girls are reading.

"she believes that its okay to make trashy romance novels as the bases for real life sex calls shows deliberate insensitivity to the current to the quagmire many urban Indian women find themselves in or plain ignorance"

Can you please post from my quote exactly where I said any such thing?

"Those like me who have active sex lives will tell you that sex is anything but what is written in erotic novels.

I write eroticism and know the difference between fantasy and real life earthy sex, she doesn't. "

So your sex life is not like erotic books, and you write erotica? What exactly does this erotica contain if it is not erotic? Or are you trying to sell fake goods to your readers while you enjoy the real earthy kind of sex that is not erotic?

"when she doesnt care two hoots when its comes to being condescending towards small squirrel."

Can smallsquirrel please come out and tell me where I was condescending? I am sick of this desicritic swarm to defend the clan.

neela... you said "SS should consider that maybe, just maybe, this naivete could be a show so they can get her to open up about her life. "

uh, this is condescending. it assumes I know nothing about interacting with others and am easily duped since I am just some stupid firang.

I know these people well. I have been in their homes. I know their spouses and their children. They do not treat me like some circus freak agony aunt and get together behind my back plotting to make me talk about what kind of freaks westerners must be in bed. maybe your friend is gullible like that, but I am not.

They were curious about the sex lives of people in other countries, that I will give to you. And they did ask about it. But I think it's funny that you discount your fellow indians to the point you think they would have to resort to trickery to simply ask. so that is condescending to them as well.

neela, I do think you overreacted, and I also think you made some ridiculous statements in your comments. I pointed them out to you and you chose to ignore what I said.

as for the swarm to defend what you call the clan... did you not even notice that this post itself is in direct contradiction to what Deepti has posted before? Did she come on here and get all defensive and ugly just because I openly disagreed with her? no, because the rest of us can deal with a little disagreement without getting weepy and pleading for backup! when we agree we agree and say so, when we don't... same thing!

oh, and the other thing that is condescending is your implication that because you think I am wrong I must be an easily duped idiot. you call it cynicism, I call it condescension. that's no way to make an argument, neela.

Neela: I am sick of this desicritic swarm to defend the clan.

Chandra : My sincere advice, your analysis is quite clear. Your subsequent posts clarified your point further. Relax now and dont rush to the keyboard everytime you see a comment. Whatever you post now will add no value to the debate. Why waste your time then? :-)

Thanks Chandra - but the swarming continues unabated.
And I still want to know why Deepti writes erotica if her satisfying sex life is not erotic but earthy real.

As for smallsquirrel: Now who is over-reacting?

"this is condescending. it assumes I know nothing about interacting with others and am easily duped since I am just some stupid firang."

Your words not mine. If you know these people really well then that is what you have say. I do not presume to know you or to know how well you know the people, the intimate details of whose lives are now on this blog.

"they do not treat me like some circus freak agony aunt and get together behind my back plotting to make me talk about what kind of freaks westerners must be in bed."

My comment came directly out of your statement:

"After that the questions started trickling in until eventually I felt like I was running an agony aunt column every day at lunchtime."

And after insulting me now it is time to insult my friend.

"maybe your friend is gullible like that, but I am not."

Which friend? How is he/she gullible? If someone asks you a question that makes you gullible?

"They were curious about the sex lives of people in other countries, that I will give to you. And they did ask about it."

That is exactly what I said - so why are you not gullible and my friend/s is/are?

"But I think it's funny that you discount your fellow indians to the point you think they would have to resort to trickery to simply ask. so that is condescending to them as well."

No - I am not condescending to them. I said it would be bizarre, and in fact it would also be uncomfortable to many and this could be an alternative method. You see I know my fellow Indians as I am one too. Did I speak in definitives? 'Could be' is what I said. By the way - if you are not seeking to hear other people's perspectives and opinions then why post on a blog at all?

"neela, I do think you overreacted, and I also think you made some ridiculous statements in your comments. I pointed them out to you and you chose to ignore what I said."

What ridiculous statements? Please state them now so I can respond. As far as I can recall I said that the uneducated are not well informed at all, the educated have access to and read about sex and such matters. And that at a young age girls read Mills and Boon. Please tell me which of these statements is ridiculous.

"as for the swarm to defend what you call the clan... did you not even notice that this post itself is in direct contradiction to what Deepti has posted before?"

I do not see that. She told me I was being condescending towards you - so you came on and confirmed exactly that.

And finally, cynicism could be an inherent flaw in my personality, that does not necessarily translate into condescension towards others. I am cynical towards my fellow Indians perhaps, but I knew nothing about how well you know these particular folks, and what that does to your being able to judge their sincerity.

neela I will answer this round of questions, but I am not going 15 rounds with you, so....

I am not overreacting, because I am not angry or demanding responses or answer. you asked me for a response and I gave you one. you did not like it so now you're demanding more responses. a little insecure, doncha think?

you said "Many of my Western friends who have traveled in India have had random unknown people query them about their sex lives. Co-workers cannot do that, it would be totally bizarre. But they can get information out of you by pretending they need advice, and turning you into an Ask Abby type service."

first of all, I was not talking about random, unknown people... and it was not totally bizarre. if your friends fell for UNKNOWN people asking them or pretending to need advice, that makes then gullible, not me.

your ridiculous statements have already been brought up by myself and others, to include "all educated women read" and "every girl in India reads mills and boon" and your assertion that m&b provides a reasonable likeness to sexual relationships in the real world. and by the fact that you do not seem to understand the difference and keep attacking deepti about her erotica and twisting her words. what she said is that she writes erotica that reflects what really happens, not that kind of effed up, stupid and ridiculous sex that happens in m&b.

I do seek to hear others' opinions for sure, and I disagree with a lot of things. scroll up! but they do not get all loopy and defensive when we have a dialog and start demanding answers and write huge diatribes against me and others when we disagree with them.

I cannot believe I am about to do this, but yes, take chandra as an example. he said some stuff, we challenged, and then he probably laughed it off. that is how debate is done!

ruvy: 8================================D

chandra.... only you, dear... only you.....

Kela

Do you work on a ship?

edit... I meant kela... not chandra...

sheesh.

sorry guys. I know you're not interchangeable. LOL

Ya, we are not...u can have a kela under a chandra......

sorry..that should read as

a kela under THE chandra

Umm, isn't Neela the same person who lauded another commentator for comments about Deepti's libido upon reading a critique of Sharukh Khan's performance. so much for bawling about personal attacks. At least that should answer Mr.Kulkarni's conecern about whether DC would speak in this manner to people they meet for the "first time".

also where were all these people when some of the authors here were being maliciously attacked and verbal abuse was rampant. I don't remember Mr.Ravi Kulkarni voicing his disapproval then. Or do you guys voice your thoughts only when someone's immaturity or lack of experience in the sack gets pinpointed?

And Neela I think your very serious allegation of "cronysim" leveled against the DC team is most definitely a personal attack.

Hi Seema,

You are right I didn't protest when some of the well known attackers (on the left or the right) on DC make personal attacks. In fact I don't read all of the blogs here, only those I find interesting. Also, there is difference between serious bloggers and rabble rousers. I wouldn't have any comment about the likes of some in this post (you know who I am talking about) who write just plain nonsense. SS, Aditi, Deepti happen to write frequently on these pages and I read them and admire them. So I am just pointing out that drawing conclusions about people, their experience and appearance is not conducive to a fruitful discussion. Instead talk about ideas being right or wrong. I don't know any of you here, so it is not that I am taking sides.

Regards,

Ravi Kulkarni

No SS, it is another person's blog - he is quite famous for his tongue in cheek articles.
I just don't believe the results of the survey :D

The desicritics swarm is at it yet again. If I say something about Deepti's statement then I am twisting her words. The swarm, is NOT twisting my words. And no one provides quotes of anything I said - BECAUSE quotes cannot be twisted! My friends were asked inappropriate questions about their sex lives - as in "asked". Did I say they replied? So what exactly did they fall for? They fell for exactly what SS fell for - being asked questions. That is not under any individual's control unless you muffle the populace. I can see how that would seem like a viable option on this forum as the only people with a voice who are not attacked are the swarm!

It is also ironic that the attack has spread to anyone who said a word on the "wrong" side of this debate. I do not know Ravi. But obviously he saw that making personal attacks is not done, specially by the folks who claim to have a comment policy in place. You guys are running the blog, not me. I am just here as a reader who sometimes writes a comment.

If you want to see how to run a clean blog where such attacks are not tolerated than go to passionforcinema. There is information, people post ridiculous stuff, but the movement is in the forward direction. Just my two cents worth. I am on the way to being convinced that this blog space is not where I would want to spend my time.

neela, what has become apparent to me is that you cannot handle anyone telling you that you are wrong, and when more than one person does it you flip out. there was not swarm, just 3 people who did not agree with what you had to say. you've done it on this thread and if you are the same neela, you've done it on other threads too.

funny, when I quoted you, and tried to get you to address those issues, you ignored them. not once, not twice but 3 times on this thread. hmmmm...

and finally, DC doesn't have to mimic any other site. it is what it is, and many people are perfectly happy here.

#93:Neela "I am on the way to being convinced that this blog space is not where I would want to spend my time."

We hope for your touchy sake and ours that you get there soon. We will miss you.....not.

Smallsquirrel: Something that people may not be aware of: there are fishers on websites who go to magazines, blogs etc, make a stupid comment and when questioned or argued against immediately raise a hue and cry about "personal attacks" or create a "free speech" controversy. They then very casually include the name of that one website that they are trying to "market" that just happens to be "so much better" and "allows anything to be said" etc. :) It is a very common strategy.

I'm not saying that Neela is engaging in this but I hope people notice that it is very suspicious how a casual debate has caused commentator Neela not only to question all the odd 200 authors and a coupla dozen editors of this site but to also quote the one website which incidentally she finds "cleaner" :) Hence it is not a surprise that she has ignored all your other sane arguments or debates and made a mountain out of a molehill using the support of a few other commentators who honestly just seem to have a questionable sense of timing when it comes to voicing their disapproval against ad hominem and expressing empathy when personal attacks are being made.

smallsq - please show me where you have handled being told you are wrong :-) You never quoted me. I told you that the uneducated do not read about sex. That was ignored!

SeemaD - yes I am touting passionforcinema, they give me money for doing this. The stupidity on this forum is mind boggling. And the insults, just because I mention another site that I found deals better with issues of personal attacks. 200 contributors and a dozen editors on this site? Well, I am expecting more and more to chip and tell me there was no violation of the stated policy. I expect no less from Desicritics.

As for the original article - does it cover any new ground since BBC's 1999 article titled "Indian women want more from their men"? It follows the same basic structure and does not really bring any "up close and personal" look at the issue.

I think smsq wants us to "fall" for something that has nothing new and is completely derivative.

Is that a personal insult? Of course not. The parallels between that article and this post are amply clear to me. So I am using all logic and information to arrive at this most logical conclusion.

I can show you a million places where people disagreed with me. happens all the time, dear. and OMG I quoted your "every girl in india reads mills and boon" 3 times!

whatever. I am done, this is so not productive. you're just gonna keep whining. you've turned this into the neela show instead of talking about my article. but thanks for calling my article derivative hon. FYI, I did not know about the other article, as I do not read every single other article on earth before I write mine.

plus, what does it matter... you only see what you wanna see. makes for rather boring and unenlightened discussion. maybe you would have better luck talking to a parrot.. seems to be what you're looking for.

ta ta!

Great post...thanks for talking about this. It's amazing how women's sexual needs are a taboo topic in India. Even among liberated women, the 'm' word (and I mean masturbation) is seldom discussed. Nor do married friends talk about their sex lives.

On a related note, do take a look at Ultra Violet (http://youngfeminists.wordpress.com), a colla-blog for young feminists in India, that I edit and contribute with your comments, suggestions etc.

"We hope for your touchy sake and ours that you get there soon. We will miss you.....not."

How old are you? I'd say about 14 - and please do not come back with Nanny Nanny Boo Boo or I'll have to drop that to 12.

"On a related note, do take a look at Ultra Violet (http://youngfeminists.wordpress.com), a colla-blog for young feminists in India, that I edit and contribute with your comments, suggestions etc."

And someone thought I was pushing some other blog!!!

smsq is done with quoting one sentence out of context and I am done with a derivative article.

BTW - not one woman, out of the numerous who swarmed, has come forward to say they have never read a Mills and Boon.

Now remember = personal attacks are not allowed unless you can justify that they were reasoned.

SS, Mills and Boon is not read by all middle class girls, in fact many of us from 'liberal' homes had to hide and read these books and were ashamed if our dads happened to see these torrid books.

Sex continues to be a taboo in Indian society. Neela's parents did not let her see an erotic temple fearing that it may corrupt her. Similarly parents feared that their kids reading romantic novels may be tempted in their teen years.

Also when life doesn't dool out the Mills and Boons happily ever afters or the men dont act like Romantic heroes Indian women especially from conservative homes suffer from deep disappointments.

Again blanketed statements such as made by Neela continue to show how naive desi women really are in India despite being upwardly mobile and how shackled they are to the prevailing conservative notions of sexuality.

#Chandra: I never understand why people keep repeating this. The great ASI or other historians have no clue as to why this temple was built or the book written....."


and i don't understand why do you need to feel embarassed and live in denial ? Shake off that colonial hangover of yours.Khajuraho maybe explicit but what about Konark,Puri,Kamakhaya and several others.The Kamakhya temple is in the shape of a vagina.Then you have hindu icons like the shiva lingam (whats the bathing with milk supposed to signify)You being a Hindu you should know more.Hinduism has in its essence the celebration of life and procreation.
You should be proud of the kamasutra and stuff like that.



PS
Why do newly wed women wear a red tilak on their forehead ?Can anyone educate me on its significance ?Has it something to do with deflowering.

No Kela, the red sindoor stands for being married. If a woman dies before her husband her corpse is dressed in 'red' denoting that she died a 'Suhaagan' and burnt on the pyre as per most North Indian Hindu traditions.

if a widow remarries does she put on the red sindoor?

Interesting piece SS.

I will restrict my comments to Sri Lanka because India is too complex and am not an Indian (or an expert on India)


Before the colonisation (by Portuguese first, subsequently by Dutch and British) we were one of the most sexually liberated cultures in the world, IMO. Men were polygamous and so were our women. Especially women as there were other socio-economic reasons for women to have more than one man. 'M' word (as we know it today) was unheard of but a woman would live with a man/men and have his/their children and if that didn't work out they would find other suitable partners and everything was hunky dory. No bitter battles for divorce etc.

Enter the missionaries and suddenly you ought to get a licence to live with a man/woman. You were required to cover yourself top to bottom and not wearing a jacket was regarded vulgar and indecent. So what I am trying to say is that the Victorian values and attitude were imposed on us by the imperialists. AND it exists today because the 'wannabe' westerners resigned to it to gain access and acceptance economically and socially. So the English-speaking-church-going 'middle class' was born and now stuck with prudish alien values.

But this prudishness is not so in upper class and upper middle class (obviously) and in rural SL and in the lower class. Education has nothing to do with this. (Poor and rural population in SL are educated.) Small S, you have totally overlooked the class and economic angle as regards the attitude towards sex.

If you speak to a rural girl/boy you will realise they know almost everything about sex in theory and practice. Its just the middle class and the lower middle class who are still stuck with 'oh we are desi, we can't talk about sex' mentality.

Also, most girls in SL (and I guess in India as well) don't kiss and tell.Infact lots of young people feign innocence and ignorance, so I agree with the people who think SS was duped! :(


BTW, who says size doesn't matter? It totally does!

Die Hard:BTW, who says size doesn't matter? It totally does!

apparently what you do with it matters more.It shouldnt matter if you're not "satisfying" your [EDITED]

kela... a word of caution... you refer to women in general as [EDITED] again on one of my posts and I will hunt you down and give you the embarrassment of your life. that is a promise.

in case you have a doubt, realize that I am serious.

die hard... nah , I was not duped... I knew these women for over a year, was in their homes and knew their spouses. they are just as they told...

kela, you are funny in a annoying sort of way. Yeah...I agree that what you do with it matters most. Having said that if it is BIG your work is cut out. So there is a positive correlation.

SS i believe you

Kela-101

oye..i was stating a fact...what part of my sentence implies embarassment?

BTW do you work on a ship?

rgds

Chandra : People usually coverup/deny something they're not comfy/embarassed about.
And no sir I don't work on a ship.What gave u that impression? Btw some fine goan ladies did think i worked on a ship :)

SS : as regards the B word (which i can't mention) i was looking for a word that would embrace wife,mistress,girlfriend,hooker,friendly neighbourhood aunty..... etc I usually use it as a term of endearment ,no offence meant

kela, are you gonna try to sell me a bridge in Kolkatta along with that story? that's pathetic. just apologize and be done with it.

on what planet is the word bitch used a term of endearment?

SS you are entitled to think whatever .i apologise for using the B word if u were offended

Kela: what did i deny...

Ship.....because you come online once in a few weeks...i thought you logon at every port of call ;)

Maybe he's got a babe in every port too? Now I'm sure Kela won't take that offense to that;)

Chandra your post #67 gave me that impression.Like i said Khajuraho isnt the only one,almost every temple in india has sexual iconography.Konark,Puri,Kamakhya....