Desicritics Comments on Swat Buddha Under Threat From Islamists and Activist "Silence"

Comment by Desh

Thu, 4 Oct 2007 20:12:42 EDT

Thanks Ruvy! Temporal: I read through the list of 30 sites - i am not sure which one you specifically had in mind when you had the "cant blame Abraham" missive. Point me to it and I will look at it. Here are the ONLY two news articles that I see on Google News in Pakistani newspapers on Swat Buddha: Militants fail to destroy Buddhist carvings in Swat NA body slams bids to destroy Buddhist heritage in Swat I had been equally mad about the Iraq destruction of history as I have been on buddhas. if you have any more.. please give them here.. Cheers, Desh Drishtikone.com

Comment by temporal

Thu, 4 Oct 2007 19:42:54 EDT

yes an update, please (and do check and browse other sites) and in addition to that a response to issues raised in #19 and #20 would help too :)

Comment by Ruvy in Jerusalem

Thu, 4 Oct 2007 19:37:23 EDT

Desh, I've watched this back and forth with some interest and can sympathize with your frustration. All in all, this has been a very interesting article, and for the most part, the comments have displayed what you have claimed in your article. Query: Has there been a word of protest - or any action to destroy this particular shrine? In other words, is there movement on the issue at all, are things proceeding as planned? Can you give us an update?

Comment by Desh

Thu, 4 Oct 2007 11:01:09 EDT

Another thing, all the three "instruments" that you mentioned - get importance in the hands of the Islamic scholars themselves. And THOSE are precisely the people that SHOULD be challenged! It is like saying that only priests and scholars of Vedas can define the Vedas. Anyone else doing it has no value. Do you even see the mischief that is there? The whole nonsense of it?

Comment by Desh

Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:58:01 EDT

Null: You are arguing for the sake of arguing now! How many ORDINARY Muslims, based on a humanistic/human rights agenda have started an ijtihad AND met with success?? When Roy or Swami Saraswati started their work, they were ordinary people who learnt the scriptures on their own and had a humanistic agenda... and were ready to go to any length to change the world. When Saraswati proposed ban on idol Worship that was as anti-thetical to "Hinduism" of the day as doing Idol Worship is to Islam. The only modern example of the type that I am talking about - that kind of Ijtihad has been attempted by Irshad Manji. And she is not exactly the type of person that every devout Muslim aspires to be.. is it? Vivekananda voiced strong protests about Adi Shankracharya's LACK of any protest against the caste system - often saying that Shankracharya had a great head but lacked the heart. There was no greater figure in medieval figure greater than Shankracharya in Hindu pantheon, yet... does anyone throw out Vivekananda? Quite the opposite. The test of tolerance of any religious ideology is that though MANY small sects branch out of the main tree, yet all can talk to each other and be together. Hindus (Sanatan Dharma) and Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Arya Samaj, etc.... still visit each other's places and hardly have any hatred. Yes, I know Pakistan tried a lot to seed hatred in the 80-90's and Congress fueled it - even calling the massacres of 1984 as "Hindu Sikh riots" when they were massacres of a Sikhs by a political party... but despite that... nothing much happened. The basic and foundational tolerance still is intact. Can you say the same of Sunnis & Ahmedis? Sunnis & Shias? and the many other groups? Can you say the same of Jews & Muslims? Christians & Muslims? Christians & Jews? The source and the tree is the same.. yet the poison within the branches is damning! Null, this is my last reply to you.. I do not intend to go into this one-up-manship anymore.. It is not my intention! It is great if anyone can recognize that there is an issue (to even start to correct it), if no one does... God Bless! Cheers, Desh Drishtikone.com

Comment by null

Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:54:14 EDT

In Islam that is absent! There is NO way you can bring about changes. For antiquity is a pillar of the religious sermon. Any change is the FIRST test of blasphemy and non-believer. This statement betrays your ignorance Specific practises are changed due to Qiyas and Ijtihad and local cultures and ijma -discussions amongst scholars

Comment by Desh

Thu, 4 Oct 2007 08:10:35 EDT

Null: You are probably right. There are a lot of things that despicable in Hinduism - like Sati and Caste System has been. But that is where the similarity ends. Because when a Raja Ram Mohan Roy or Dayananda Saraswati went ahead and interpreted and debated the Vedas and scriptures with those loony Priests in Benaras and elsewhere.... do as they may those priests could not make then "Non-Hindus".... that is why these gentlemen were able to make HUGE dent in those practices. There is a FEEDBACK loop. A corrective mechanism, if you will. In Islam that is absent! There is NO way you can bring about changes. For antiquity is a pillar of the religious sermon. Any change is the FIRST test of blasphemy and non-believer. So, the question is - Can Islam EVER have a Raja Ram Mohan Roy or a Dayananda Saraswati? No religion or ideology is perfect but there needs to be some mechanism in every society for self correction. The ideologies (religions are that) that dis-allow such corrective mechanisms, in my view, end up as more fanatical than others. Ideologies, in general, are not the path to glory anyways. Ask yourself. Cheers, Desh Drishtikone.com

Comment by prasun

Thu, 4 Oct 2007 07:10:58 EDT

"The reverse is true for muslims who see many things in hindu society/hinduism which are despicable whether the hindus realize it or not." Then why did they not move to Pakistan?I personally feel muslims are incompatible with any non-mulsims.I hope the muslims realize this. Desh, I liked ur article and the ur response to the posters here.

Comment by null

Thu, 4 Oct 2007 06:33:54 EDT

Desh "And, there are several Hindus who see a pattern to Islamic society that is despicable whether the Muslims realize or not" The reverse is true for muslims who see many things in hindu society/hinduism which are despicable whether the hindus realize it or not.

Comment by temporal

Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:12:00 EDT

ps: and THIS LIST of 30 sites allover the world might interest you too...except here you might not be able to bash abraham as much:)

Comment by temporal

Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:09:22 EDT

desh: this is from the link i mentioned in #5 about which you may write another time...and if you do you might as well compare that loss with this one...of course feel free to bash islam...that would be a bonus;)

Air strikes in 2003 left historical monuments undamaged, but Professor Bahrani, says: "The occupation has resulted in a tremendous destruction of history well beyond the museums and libraries looted and destroyed at the fall of Baghdad. At least seven historical sites have been used in this way by US and coalition forces since April 2003, one of them being the historical heart of Samarra, where the Askari shrine built by Nasr al Din Shah was bombed in 2006." The use of heritage sites as military bases is a breach of the Hague Convention and Protocol of 1954 (chapter 1, article 5) which covers periods of occupation; although the US did not ratify the Convention, Italy, Poland, Australia and Holland, all of whom sent forces to Iraq, are contracting parties.

Comment by Desh

Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:40:35 EDT

Temporal: Ok, sentiments are mutual.. this is my last try as well.. Talking Critically of Islam DOES NOT EQUAL "Sangh Parivar sympathiser" Do you get it? And, there are several Hindus who see a pattern to Islamic society that is despicable whether the Muslims realize or not.. and it has NOTHING to do with their sympathy for those loonies in Shiv Sena! So, get it clearly! And I am NOT one of those people who does a BALANCING JOB for the sake of doing it.. I will write negatively about the Shiv Sena folks.. when I see them doing something really stupid.. which I usuallly do on my blogs.. The problem that is manifesting from mess from Islamic society is so HUGE currently that Shiv Sainiks look like toddlers! So, again, DO NOT expect me to play the nonsensical game of PC here or anywhere.. I am NOT into it. It is sad that today's society cannot do this.. for one person I do have the highest regard Swami Vivekananda never minced any words... unfortunately that has been lost. Cheers, Desh Drishtikone.com

Comment by temporal

Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:29:00 EDT

desh: :) (sigh) my point was lost on you!...therefore i will make one more attempt and then leave... this "contempt" you talk of above...if it was across the board and uniform in its application to all religions then in my mind at least you will not appear as a parivar sympathiser PS: focus on the last half of #5, if you want to!

Comment by Desh

Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:03:30 EDT

Temporal: You are free to assume what you may want to but I intend to speak freely without the binds of PC. And i do not need any "front" to say what I want to say. Personally, I do see a lot of problems in all the religions - but given the world religious history - it is unmistakable that the Abrahamic religions - specifically Christianity and Islam have a tendency to propogate by hook or crook. In strict spiritual terms that is TRIBAL nonsense in my perspective. As for Hinduism, I believe too that in last few centuries the Vedic height of knowledge has been lost and a mess has been created. No one can deny it.. just as no one can deny that the same Vedic/vedantic ethos has been one of the most tolerant ethos in history of mankind! Unfortunately, in today's hypocritic world of South Asia - specifically India, it has been propagated that saying anything against Islam or questioning any thing in that society makes you a 'Sangh Parivar' and that is a bad thing! I do not subscribe to that thinking. I treat with EXACTLY the contempt it deserves! I truly believe that there is an argument for the Islamic world to rethink their who structure - it might have succeeded in numerical terms... it has FAILED in spiritual and humanistic terms. I need not back it up with any data or arguments - if you introspect HONESTLY you will know what I mean. The sooner and most honestly this happens it will be better for the world and Muslims.. otherwise the world will face a true clash of civilizations that is unmistakably brewing. We can argue as much we want on the "peaceful" aspects of Islam - but the effects are there for all to see. Those who keep shouting about the peaceful nature do so inthe comfort of countries where the main government and society is not Islamic... if they do say so in one of the Islamic countries, the results are terrible. Only few women have been outspoken and they have faced the wrath in public for all to see. I would ONLY believe in this constant nonsense from the "moderates" in the face of terrorism when these moderates start standing up to Al Qaeda, Jaish-e-Mohammad type of people and argue in public.. until then it is a hypocritical front to obfuscate the actual issue! Cheers, Desh Drishtikone.com

Comment by temporal

Wed, 3 Oct 2007 13:23:46 EDT

desh: just an observation...from you earlier sufi-mystic-spirtualist stance and musings you increasingly write and comment like an rss type fundo-mullah was that earlier portrayal merely a camouflage and this your true colors? ;)

Comment by null

Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:47:55 EDT

Drish the Kaaba is in Makkah and it was the meccan arabs who first converted to islam You should really read history before bullshitting about "It was a deliberate campaign in intimidation and repression at the end of which the local culture was destroyed and vanquished." In fact it was the meccan elite who first repressed islam amongst meccan arabs and then themselves later converted to islam

Comment by Desh

Wed, 3 Oct 2007 07:59:44 EDT

Null: next time I hope you have the couage to write your name as well.. .. anyways, here is an example of what Babar's "humanity" was all about:

However, this act which could have saved their lives from sword of an orthodox Hindu, had no effect on Babur, who casually writes, "The prisoners were ordered to be beheaded and a pillar of their heads was set up in our camps." According to Erskine this barbaric act was typical to the Tartar conquerors of Asia, and throughout Babur's memoirs we find frequent mention of 'pillar of heads' as part of a victory ritual. Yet none of his Mughal successors resorted to this custom, a clear sign of Indianisation or rather dilution of the robust Tartar spirit.

Before the slave dynasty, India saw all kinds of invasions from Greeks etc and everytime every culture was amalgamated into the broader Hindu culture. It would be a difficult thing for anyone who lives outside - specially in countries and areas that segregate and ethnically cleanse people of different religion/cultures etc to understand the strength of India's tolerance - which I am CONVINCED owes its strength from Hindu/Vedic culture. Sometimes I wonder if the Hindus should have been so tolerant throughout the history and been a bit more aggressive? But that is how it is.

Later the arabs converted to islam and removed those idols

Dont go around giving this bullshit to people! Not all just one fine morning "converted". It was a deliberate campaign in intimidation and repression at the end of which the local culture was destroyed and vanquished. That may be a way to Heaven in Islam - but Humanity would view it differently! The persecution of the local culture was in no way different from what happened to the Zoroastrians in Persia. Some converted and some moved. I know of a Iranian Muslim who laments the fact that they were probably at one time Zoroastrians who probably converted - as most Persians were - under the influence of Arabs. IT is rather amazing and telling that the modern day and educated Muslims see nothing wrong in the act of conversion! To me it is the MOST despicable act that anyone can do to another! For anyone who has understood God - in a spiritual manner - would agree that there is just ONE God. if that be true - then you are converting the hapless from "WHOM" to "WHOM"??? COnversion speaks volumes of the people who engage in that act - and I have the lowest opinion of such protagonists. Any spiritual person cannot talk of God and conversion in the same breath! Cheers, Desh Drishtikone.com

Comment by Irfan

Wed, 3 Oct 2007 06:06:09 EDT

First Desh I am not from Pakistan, and second I did not read the History of Babur from Local mosque, but from NCERT books and scores of European and renowned Indian Authors. From that anybody can make out that Babur was a great Patron of Art and Culture. Well his Indian Invasion was a part of the norm of that time, so no one should have complains about that. Still whether an active Temple existed when Babri was constructed is still a research topic, and further Babur had no hand in construction of that mosque. I will never approve the Bamiyan incident and I condemn the Swat Incident, but you are just mad that the world made so hulla-gulla in Babri episode and is tight-lipped at Swat. Sounds like a kid complaining you punished me but not him. From your last comment it seems you want to compete with Muslim Fundamentalists (IF THEY CAN WHY CAN'T I ) The article would have got a lot of support from every quarter, had it appealed to the World to act and stop the Swat act as they tried (but failed) during the Babri thing. So desh we have seen the demolition of Bamiyan Buddha , Babri mosque , and uncounted Temples in Pakistan and Bangladesh by the barbarians,(((Taliban and Sangh minded))) we should do all to stop this to happen again in Swat. And Inshallah we will succeed. And about Kaaba and the deities; it is a different Topic; why to dwell there it is out of present context. Anyhow your knowledge about that is restricted just to googling and downloading that what suits your brain and ignoring other. Cheers

Comment by null

Wed, 3 Oct 2007 05:49:16 EDT

Before commenting on Babar do some reading of history Have u read Tuzuk a Babari ? Have u read what historians have said about Babar ? Read Abraham Eraly's book on the Great Mughals Before the slave dinesty ruled Delhi, were the kings ruling in what is today India 'secular' ? Bizarre !!! The Kaaba is a structure that has been built repeatedly .

Comment by null

Wed, 3 Oct 2007 05:39:11 EDT

Desh It was some local arabs who placed the idols in the Kaaba Later the arabs converted to islam and removed those idols so what's ur problem ?

Comment by Desh

Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:26:59 EDT

Irfan: "Baber was not a Barbarian that is what I read in History." I wonder which history you read. In Pakistan I am sure he wasn't but as far as the deeds of killing anyone who does not agree to your interpretation of God.. and in thousands is concerned - Babar was definitely there. IN fact, apart from Akbar, there was not a single Moghul who even had a pretense of secular rule! And it was Babari Masjid that I referred to.. Is a Buddha statue or a stupa not as important to a Buddhist as a defunct/unused mosque is to a Muslim? What you say speaks a lot about your view.. and precisely the reason why you see nothing wrong in the destruction of the BUddha statue! Honestly, I am AMAZED beyond words.. not a single Pakistani has registered a prima facie consternation on what is happening. Temporal thought it wise to give around English grammar wisdom before he could register a cliched "it saddens me" thought. Does it not even bother anyone that Bamiyan disappeared? Does it not bother anyone that such acts happen? And Irfan Sangh parivar only talk like that.. in Pakistan and Bangladesh they HAVE destroyed the temples and gurudwaras by the hundreds! Even in Kashmir.. If you want links I can give to you.. ..... did you register any sorrow? DId the media even bother to discuss that in the manner of Babri Masjid? You can only take nonsense so far.. after that people do get up and take notice... .. for under this HUGE farce of secularism is an UNMISTAKEABLE fundamentalism! Fundamentalism of intolerance shrouded in deliberate ambiguity and blindness! And Aaman you are right... Ka'aba is a living example of intolerance of Islam - where historically, many say, idols existed. It is with pride that such idols were destroyed and such a structure built. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

According to Karen Armstrong, in her book Islam: A Short History, the Kaaba was dedicated to Hubal, a Nabatean deity, and contained 360 idols which probably represented the days of the year.[14] According to the Boston Globe, the Kaaba was a shrine for the Daughters of God (al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat) and Hubal.[15]

perhaps due to such a "rich" heritage, we have it ingrained in the culture... and minds! Cheers, Desh Drishtikone.com

Comment by Ledzius

Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:11:39 EDT

At least the Egyptians haven't taken a leaf out of the Saudi book and started demolishing the Pyramids. Now THAT would really piss off the Western world.

Comment by Aaman

Tue, 2 Oct 2007 08:30:24 EDT

Isn't the ka'aba a 'heritage' structure?

Comment by Apollo

Tue, 2 Oct 2007 06:47:46 EDT

Well nothing is immune against these fundamentalists it seems. The saudis for instance have reportedly destroyed a large amount of heritage structures in mecca and madinah because in their interpretation of the islamic scriptures such structures could be come to be seen as holy and believers might start worshipping them. And much of the Islamic world is surprisingly silent on this issue.Nobody seems to have taken the case against the saudis for endangering their common heritage.

Comment by temporal

Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:57:04 EDT

thank you aaman:) desh: #3: perhaps you skipped this: my thoughts on the content may come later... having visited saidu sharif, murghzar, kalam and other scenic spots earlier on it saddens me to see the rise of this fanatical mullahood that is bent upon destroying our heritage yes, our common heritage we are children of the same deity/earth...and our collective past is our collective heritage our heritage is being destroyed on a grander scale then we like to admit check out baithak sep 18 - "It is the death of history"