NEWS

Iranian Professors Question Lee Bollinger & the USA

September 27, 2007
Dr Bhaskar Dasgupta

I have already expressed my distaste for the way Columbia University President Lee Bollinger treated President Ahmadinejad of Iran. But reacting to this behaviour, seven Iranian University Chancellors have publicly asked Professor Bollinger for answers to ten questions. While I am nowhere close to Professor Bollinger, these are my thoughts on the questions.

(Do recall that these chancellors did not make any comments on the points that Professor Bollinger raised, which in turn is a rather damning indictment on them, the spectacularly stupid and moronic "we have no gays in Iran" notwithstanding!

1- Why did the US media put you under so much pressure to prevent Mr. Ahmadinejad from delivering his speech at Columbia University? And why have American TV networks been broadcasting hours of news reports insulting our president while refusing to allow him the opportunity to respond? Is this not against the principle of freedom of speech?

I do agree to some bits of this, the US government and media are a bit chary of foreign media so free speech is not really totally free speech. See my comment on how the USA and UK reacted to Al Jazeera all the way back to 2003. But on the other hand, this is a qualitative and value judgement question and it is very difficult to give a good answer. What is "much pressure" ? Also he had both his speeches broadcast. I am not sure what opportunity was stopped? This idea that the media is very biased is quite wrong and has been discussed here.

2- Why, in 1953, did the US administration overthrow the Iran's national government under Dr Mohammad Mosaddegh and go on to support the Shah's dictatorship?

Now this is absolutely criminal and I have to agree with the Iranians. There was no reason for the Americans and British to go mucking around with Iran and overthrow his government despite his attractions to socialism/communism (take your pick). You do not muck around with foreign governments to this extent. As for supporting the Shah's dictatorship (leaving aside the fact that Iran is no angel), this is also something that is very negative on the part of the USA. As the Indians pointed out today, "so explain why USA can support General Musharraf of Pakistan but hate the Burmese Generals?". This is very inconsistent behaviour indeed and certainly not praiseworthy. Yes, I know the reasons but they were short term and the benefit of those short term reasons were not justified by the long term damage on American morals and principles.

3- Why did the US support the blood-thirsty dictator Saddam Hussein during the 1980-88 Iraqi-imposed war on Iran, considering his reckless use of chemical weapons against Iranian soldiers defending their land and even against his own people?

Again, no real objection. USA, Europe and others did support Saddam Hussein. All for trying to punish Iran. Not good and not fair.

4- Why is the US putting pressure on the government elected by the majority of Palestinians in Gaza instead of officially recognizing it? And why does it oppose Iran 's proposal to resolve the 60-year-old Palestinian issue through a general referendum?

Now this is a stupid question. The reason why USA does not recognize the Hamas government is because it is nominated as a terrorist organisation. It simply has to renounce violence and engage in negotiations for it to get recognised. Now this is a grey area about when you switch from a terrorist group to a resistance group to a political party, but surely the Iranian Chancellors understand why? Secondly, what general referendum? Who runs it? How? What will be the results? This is such a vacuous and stupid suggestion that the mind boggles. Think about carrying out a referendum on Kashmir 60 years after partition. Can you imagine the murder, mayhem and wars that would break out? Multiply that bv ten and you will get the idea in the Middle East if it runs a referendum.

5- Why has the US military failed to find Al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden even with all its advanced equipment? How do you justify the old friendship between the Bush and Bin Laden families and their cooperation on oil deals? How can you justify the Bush administration's efforts to disrupt investigations concerning the September 11 attacks?

Another frankly stupid question. If advanced equipment was indeed the sole criterion for finding culprits and solving crime, then the USA would be a crime-free state!!. Also, family friendships are now wrong? Crimes by association are not a crime even in Shia Islamic law, so why are they raising this? Finally, the disruption of the 9/11 attacks is in their minds and is a conspiracy theory question. End of story.

6- Why does the US administration support the Mujahedin Khalq Organization (MKO) despite the fact that the group has officially and openly accepted the responsibility for numerous deadly bombings and massacres in Iran and Iraq? Why does the US refuse to allow Iran's current government to act against the MKO's main base in Iraq?

Now this is indeed a very good question. For all its vices and faults, Iran is an independent country, and has some semblance of democracy. American support of the rebel group Khalq is, in my opinion, wrong. Mind you, the Germans are supporting the Iranian Kurds!

7- Was the US invasion of Iraq based on international consensus and did international institutions support it? What was the real purpose behind the invasion which has claimed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives? Where are the weapons of mass destruction that the US claimed were being stockpiled in Iraq?

This is another ignorant question. If the Chancellors do not know that the war was legal, then they aren't reading their newspapers or they do not understand or know the British or American Legal Systems. Secondly, asking for a real purpose right before asking for the evidence of weapons of mass destruction means that this was a rhetorical question.

8- Why do America's closest allies in the Middle East come from extremely undemocratic governments with absolutist monarchical regimes?

Very good question. Why indeed? See my comment on question #2

9- Why did the US oppose the plan for a Middle East free of unconventional weapons in the recent session of the International Atomic Energy Agency Board of Governors despite the fact the move won the support of all members other than Israel?

Again, a very good question but there are two parts to the answer. The first is the NPT (which I have already commented upon here) and the second is domestic politics relating to support for Israel. So it is impossible for USA to go against Israel or to go for the original deal which promised that the nuclear powers will work towards eventual total disarmament.

10- Why is the US displeased with Iran's agreement with the IAEA and why does it openly oppose any progress in talks between Iran and the agency to resolve the nuclear issue under international law?

Again, this is a rhetorical question, One is not very sure why they have raised it. Iran IS against IAEA law. Which part of that did the chancellors not know? If they did not know this, then they do not know IAEA law!

There you go, my few pennies on this rather interesting debate. Quite interesting to see how people see the world. While Professor Bollinger was very factual but rude, these Iranian Chancellors are very emotional, sometimes very wrong and sometimes having zingers of questions but very polite. I think they could have phrased the questions differently and had a bigger impact but due to many questions being wrongly phrased, this entire letter will be ignored.

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Dr. Bhaskar Dasgupta works in the city of London in various capacities in the financial sector. He has worked and travelled widely around the world. The articles in here relate to his current studies and are strictly his opinion and do not reflect the position of his past or current employer(s). If you do want to blame somebody, then blame my sister and editor, she is responsible for everything, the ideas, the writing, the quotes, the drive, the israeli-palestinian crisis, global warming, the ozone layer depletion and the argentinian debt crisis.
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#1
Aaman
URL
September 27, 2007
01:20 AM

The debate is a necessary and important one, but will be buried in all the vitriol, whcih seems to be coming in this case, from the USA.

#2
Aaman
URL
September 27, 2007
01:21 AM

The debate is a necessary and important one, but will be buried in all the vitriol, whcih seems to be coming in this case, from the USA.

#3
bd
September 27, 2007
03:24 AM

I am afraid it will, Aaman. The two positions are just way too far apart. As the rather sad observation goes, "the debate between Iran and USA is sound, just sound"

#4
smallsquirrel
September 27, 2007
04:49 AM

Look, I agree with you... Bollinger acted up horribly. his nasty introduction to Ahmadinejad was uncalled for and showed him to be a petty and insecure individual. you simply do not invite someone to come speak and then act like that. you get it out civilly in a Q&A or some other such thing, but you do not embarrass yourself by acting such a prat.

that said, I still think it was an extraordinary act (though somewhat diminished by bollinger's stunts) that Ahmadinejad was asked to speak there to begin with. how many other countries can you name that would allow such a person to come and speak? and that too just, what... a month after iran released the professor from the woodrow wilson center that they had been illegally holding and questioning for months on end.

so yes, the US does act badly in many occasions. but where is your condemnation of Iranian actions? hmmmm????

you say "For all its vices and faults, Iran is an independent country, and has some semblance of democracy." which makes it sound like there are just some little quirks going on there. it's a whole lot more disturbing and evil than that. but I guess in the rush people are in to damn the US we end up turning everything else that is evil into lukewarm just to make the US look bad? makes no sense. I think you should take a deeper look into what is really happening in Iran. It's a little more serious then just a few "vices" and "faults"... they execute a huge number of minor women.... start looking there.

#5
Aaman
URL
September 27, 2007
04:54 AM

why 'such a person'? What is your personal animosity.

#6
Aaman
URL
September 27, 2007
04:55 AM

The US did commit horrible deeds, it is not exempt from criticism in the same measure.

#7
bd
September 27, 2007
05:16 AM

Smallsquirrell

1. see my 2nd para:
Do recall that these chancellors did not make any comments on the points that Professor Bollinger raised, which in turn is a rather damning indictment on them, the spectacularly stupid and moronic "we have no gays in Iran" notwithstanding!

2. I am certainly not going to praise USA for allowing Ahmednijad to speak. I am taking it for granted.

3. No, I dont mean that iranian democracy just has some quirks. Iran has democracy of a kind. Remember that even the USA's democratic system has quite a lot of quirks as well ranging from race issues to money issues.

4. I do not like him at all, see here, I think he is an economic illiterate!
http://dailysalty.blogspot.com/2007/09/iran-president-foot-in-mouth-syndrome.html

cheers

bd

#8
smallsquirrel
September 27, 2007
06:08 AM

um, you're kidding, right aaman? THE MAN SAID THE HOLOCAUST NEVER HAPPENED. He also said he wanted to wipe israel off the map.

As a person that lost a huge number of family members in that tragedy, yes, I have personal animosity toward the current leader of Iran.

I never said the US was exempt from criticism, either. what I did say was that people are always so busy blaming the US they tend to sweep assholes like Ahmadinejad under the rug.

#10
smallsquirrel
September 27, 2007
06:17 AM

surely neither of you is going to make an argument that Ahmadinejad is a good leader and is treating the Iranian people well???? if you have such an argument I would LOVE to hear it.

Look, my issue is this. Yes, the US screws up a lot. I will be the first to stand in line and shout that there are a lot of truly effed up things going on. But now we have this culture where because of those things, it is now en vogue to simply bash the US up over everything. Everything is now the fault of the US and all other leaders, homicidal maniacs or not, stand blameless in the face of it all. That is the thing that irks me. The US is very far from blameless. Separate galaxies. But that doesn't make Ahmadinejad a good guy. So the fact that people would ignore that Iran has SERIOUS human rights violations under this guy, not to mention other massive issues is beyond me. They are not small quirks, they are serious issues.

#11
smallsquirrel
September 27, 2007
06:19 AM

Dee... the man said the holocaust never happened. he had a nice little conference to talk about it. that is some serious bullshit.

#12
smallsquirrel
September 27, 2007
06:21 AM

wait, so are you all contending that Ahmadinejad is really a nice guy, just maligned by the US? you think he is just a case of bad publicity and it is the West's fault?

(bangs head on wall)

that is really too much.

#13
smallsquirrel
September 27, 2007
06:30 AM

don;t care to listen to the american about the problems in Iran, then listen to people who have fled Iran.

http://www.hambastegi.org/newsrelease/press136.htm
http://www.ncr-iran.org/

I can find you more if you wish


I have many, many friends in the US whose families have fled Iran. They are terrified for their family who remains there and they are horrified at what their country has been turned into.

#14
smallsquirrel
September 27, 2007
06:34 AM

also, I would be happy to ask one of my friends to come on here to talk about what he has actually said. all of them are native farsi speakers and will confirm for you that he did in fact call the holocaust a MYTH.

#15
Deepti Lamba
URL
September 27, 2007
07:00 AM

There are a lot of nutjobs who believe the holocaust never happened and one of them is Mel Gibson and he still gets to make movies in Hollywood. It would be nice if your Farsi friend would give a translation coz I have no faith in media and this link seemed to be genuine.

No one is saying the Iranian president is a nice guy , he is merely a mouthpiece for the existing regime.

But there are a whole bunch of dictators that America supported starting with Saddam and even Taliban who carried out gross violations against their own people and supported terrorism activities against Israel and India.

Do you think any of those Middle Eastern regimes are nice governments or would think twice before blowing Israel to smithereens if it didnt suit their purpose to be in bed with the US?

In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to drive, cutting off of hands is a law so is public stoning. Gays and women have no rights there. They too support terrorism but has the Bush Administration said a word to them?

They flew the Bin Laden family out when 9/11 happened.

How about Musharraf who is holding Paksitan hostage and not letting democracy take root there. Why don't they invade Pakistan and help democracy be established?

Its all about oil and diverting the US public attention. Bush's approval rates are down to 10%.

Another war is the last thing the US needs to go into.

Getting to the point of a nuclear flashpoint is a sobering thought but the French administration doesnt think twice about making such horrendous statements of nuking Iran. Did anyone take the French President up to task for saying such a horrid thing?

Having lived through the WMD fiasco where so many US citizens believed that the Saddam had the weapons whereas the rest of the world disagreed I am kind of concerned that they may be swayed yet again and pay dearly.

#16
smallsquirrel
September 27, 2007
07:35 AM

No I think the American public is FAR more aware of the snow job foisted upon them than you give them (us!) credit for. We knew afterwards there was no WMD and why Bush did what he did. And we're pissed! No one wants another war except Bush and the other neocons that we're trying so hard to boot out. We also do not want another senseless, trumped up war.. and when that moron of a president of france said that, we proclaimed it shite of the highest order. You know better than to try to tell me that the citizen of the US are as stupid as you just tried to make them out to be! :) Look at Bush's approval rating in the US. We are sick of his shit and we're not swallowing it anymore!!!

Ahmadinejad did not say those things just one time, Dee. He said them over and over. wasn't just one soundbyte.. there was a whole conference based on the holocaust denial, right? how was that misinterpreted? anyway, I will see if any of my friends has time.

And like I said, I agree the US has done some amazingly crappy things, and backs whomever it wants, world be damned. But that doesn't make some of these assholes like Hussein and Amadinejad any better than the slimy murderers they are. Let's not forget that in the rhetoric.

Also, about the Bin Laden family... not all of them are terrorists, Dee... and you know that. And you want Pakistan invaded, then let India do it. I mean, the US is damned if we do and damned if we don't. People want the US to clean up the messes they want cleaned up and to stay out of what they think should be taken care of. Hmmmm....

#17
Aaman
URL
September 27, 2007
07:49 AM

We knew afterwards there was no WMD and why Bush did what he did. And we're pissed

And yet he was re-elected.

#18
Chandra
September 27, 2007
08:07 AM


When is the war happening? Any inside info on dates? Haven't seen a war in 4 years. Really boring.

#19
smallsquirrel
September 27, 2007
08:11 AM

well aaman, there are morons and cheats everywhere. I still allege voting fraud!

#20
Sirius
September 27, 2007
10:27 AM

USA is conduction this affair like a circus, and Ahmadinejad is being made the Ringmaster, but theobvious owner of the Circus is USA.

Chandra are you really so warlorn (forlorn-warlorn) that you want to see a war again.

#21
Ruvy in Jerusalem
September 27, 2007
01:41 PM

This comment was originally written in response to an article at Blogcritics praising the Columbia U. president for inviting Ahmadinejad to speak there. So bear in minds that my condemnatory tone is aimed at Americans, and not at you at all.

While you are all drooling with praise over the decision to allow Ahmadinejad a forum at Columbia, an alumna of the school, a person who also has a public forum, has taken a different view of the matter. Jerusalem Post columnist Carolyn Glick has come out with a scathing and legitimate criticism of Bollinger's decision to allow this would-be Persian emperor to speak at Columbia.

Let's get right to the money shot.

Here it is important to note Ahmadinejad's uniqueness. It is true that in supporting the annihilation of Israel, Ahmadinejad is no different from his terrorist underlings Hassan Nasrallah, Khaled Mashaal and Farouk Kaddoumi. Moreover, Ahmadinejad's desire to wipe the largest concentration of Jews on earth off the map simply because it is Jewish is shared by all of his colleagues in the Iranian regime and most intellectuals and religious leaders in the Arab world.

But still there is a difference between Ahmadinejad and all the others. Through his words and his deeds, Ahmadinejad has become the symbol and the leader of the growing international movement which supports and engages in activities to advance the destruction of the Jewish people. Through his words and his deeds, Ahmadinejad has become the poster boy for genocide.

As a result, what was said yesterday at Columbia is of no consequence whatsoever. What matters is that by inviting Ahmadinejad to its campus, Columbia University announced that supporting or opposing the genocide of the Jews is a legitimate topic for discussion. In so doing, as an institution Columbia has taken itself beyond the pale of legitimate discourse. As an institution, Columbia has embraced depravity by renouncing the intrinsic sanctity of human life.


Bottom line point to be made here: let's repeat it so that the thick skulled among you can get it through your heads.

"As an institution, Columbia has embraced depravity by renouncing the intrinsic sanctity of human life."

When your institutions of higher learning where wisdom is supposedly dispensed, embrace the depravity of making genocide just one of the choices on a Chinese menu along with the chop suey and egg-drop soup, you as a nation are lost as well.

In other words, your constitution is just a piece of toilet paper, your institutions of "freedom" are absolutely worthless, and your nation displays, along with its pornographic "culture," a moral bankruptcy that makes it a fitting target for the very genocide that is now just a discussion topic amongst you.

Let's drive the nail of condemnation home with some more words from Ms. Glick.

WHILE ALL of these criticisms are accurate, many of the actions and hypocrisies they highlight are not unique to Columbia. Indeed, they describe the standard operating procedures in effect on most major American campuses today. Many major universities have given tenure to anti-American and anti-Zionist professors. Many major universities proscribe debate in classrooms and attempt to bar conservative speakers from their campuses.

Many major universities in the US bar ROTC from their campuses and yet act as apologists for regimes like Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt that outlaw homosexuality and treat women like chattel. And many major universities give platforms to speakers who represent racist, homophobic, misogynistic, anti-American and anti-Semitic regimes. Just last year Harvard University invited former Iranian president Muhammad Khatami to address its students and faculty.


In other words, Columbia University is merely symptomatic of the sickness in your culture, which is widespread and which will surely bring you all down in the near future.

I do not wish contempt or sadness to be confused with outrage. I ceased to be outraged with American policy at the end of 2001 and the beginning of 2002 while living here.

I'm not outraged at all. Carolyn Glick is. What the administration of Columbia University does is its own business and its own problem, and as indicated above, symptomatic of the moral bankruptcy of the country I was once proud to call home. I am not a graduate of Columbia University, and to me it is just another place of privilege for the "Havemores" of America.

I've long seen evidence of the moral cowardice of the United States, dating from its intervention in the Dominican Republic in 1965, its involvement with the murder of Salvador Allende in 1967, its involvement in Vietnam from 1955 to 1975, its silence and inaction in the genocide of Cambodians after that involvement in Vietnam, its silence over the slaughter of the Ibos in Nigeria in 1969-71, not to mention its near betrayal of this country when it was attacked in 1973 and its abandonment of Taiwan in the 1970's. One can continue with its intervention in El Salvador, and in Nicaragua in the 1980's as well. The list is long and wearying and of course includes the overthrow of Mossadeq in Iran in the early 1950's.

Now that I live here in Israel, and am on the receiving edge of the duplicity of American foreign policy, my respect for its policies has disappeared entirely. Now that I live here and see the deleterious effects of American culture in the rest of the world, my respect for its culture has disappeared as well.

Finally, bd, I do not find your article particularly troublesome. But I do see all this as a complicated dance to gain Iran time to develop its weapons, and to gain the United States time to figure a way out to take out the regime of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad without significant cost to itself.

#22
smallsquirrel
September 27, 2007
02:26 PM

ruvy... wow, I just find it offensive when you feel the need to lump all americans in one heap and get this massive superiority complex all rolled up in there with it.

wow.

now here is the issue. if the only thing ahmadinejad had going for him was the whole shitty holocaust denial thing, I would say you and glick were right... he doesn't deserve a platform because some things are not debatable. the holocaust happened. period.

but as it were, the man is the leader of iran and there are a lot of serious issues at hand concerning that country. so, it's a little different situation.

but so nice that you and glick can just make it only about the jews. oh wait, you also made it about hating america.

two birds, one stone!

#23
Ruvy in Jerusalem
September 27, 2007
04:40 PM

"Oh wait, you also made it about hating America. Two birds, one stone!"

Smallsquirrel,

Let's bring this to your own neighborhood, shall we?

Israel and India have had at least one defense deal soured by the American government. The deals would have benefited India (and Israel, of course). But they would not have benefited the military industrial complex of the United States. So its government went in and soured the deals.

That is just one example of how Indians get screwed over by the United States. This is stuff I would not see or sense if I still lived in the United States. But living here, it is all terribly clear to me. That is what is meant by "the deleterious effect of American foreign policy". On India On Israel.

That is not hatred - that is clear eyed viewing of reality.

On a different topic, did you find a sukká to eat in?

moadím l'simHá,
Reuven

#24
Ruvy in Jerusalem
September 27, 2007
07:14 PM

And Smallsquirrel,

One last point for you to chew on. This is from a couple of comments on the same article I cited earlier at Blogcritics.org.

Commenter #1 says:
"We really need to start waking up and seeing these people for what they are. Or one day we will cease to wake up.

Commenter #2 says:

"Your (plural that includes all folks in the US) ceasing to wake up could not happen too soon for most of the people on the planet who hate your gringo asses.

Just the facts, man, the way it fucking IS.


Fist of all, I'm not commenter #2. Second of all, what commenter #2 said is a true example of hating America.... There is a huge difference between hate - and between contempt or sadness.

#25
Sirius
September 27, 2007
11:30 PM

Excuse my typo in reply # 20. Please read that as "USA is conducting......"

#26
Steve Young
URL
September 27, 2007
11:55 PM

Dodging questions with ad hominem attacks such as "stupid" and "conspiracy theorists" are we?

Are you dodging the questions because you don't have answers, or the answers don't suit you?

#27
smallsquirrel
September 28, 2007
02:28 AM

ruvy... hey I never said the US did not mess up the n-deal or that the US did not do anything wrong.

what I did say is that ahmadinejad is important on the "world stage" and yes, it's horrific that he's a holocaust denier, but we have to deal with him anyway.

and nope, I didn't. there are like 3 jews here in bangalore and I am one of them. :(

#28
Ruvy in Jerusalem
September 28, 2007
08:54 AM

"there are like 3 Jews here in Bangalore and I am one of them." :(

That's a shame, Smallsquirrel. That isn't enough even for a minyan for kaddísh, let alone getting enough energy to put up a sukká. I do feel for you. No matter how one attempts to integrate oneself into a community, it is always comforting to have a few people who can understand your own issues as a Jew.

AS for Ahmadinejad, WE'LL have to deal with the bastard and the other poster boys for genocide. And it ain't going to be fun, either....

And when the missiles do strike here, you can bet that millions will be standing and cheering, saying "the SOB's got what they deserved at last!" I'll never forget how that happened in 1973; it is reasonable to assume it will happen again, only worse this time.

This is why I'm so strident about Israel asserting its independence and not being afraid to act alone even if the rest of the world does not approve.

Since we're damned if we stand alone, and we're damned if we seek aid, we might as well stand alone, rely on G-d of Israel alone and die with honor, if that is what it takes.

It's good to die for one's country.

#29
bd
URL
September 28, 2007
10:39 AM

Steve

Fair point. I dont have to do ad-hominem attacks, i am attacking their intelligence. Question 4 is stupid and shows their lack of knowledge of how democracies work. Question 5 was another stupid question and I gave the reasoning why I think that's stupid. Same with 7 and 10. If the chancellors are asking rhetorical questions, then they are not looking for answers. If they are stupid questions, then my answering them here wont educate them anyway!

cheers

bd

#30
Anamika
September 28, 2007
03:13 PM

Umm just a point: Ahmedinijad did not say there were no gays in Iran; he said there was no gay culture in Iran! Quite substantially different. There is an article on salon.com by someone who has translated various speeches of his for the UN.

#31
smallsquirrel
September 28, 2007
03:49 PM

sorry anamika but this is a bone of contention. other sites with the transcripts quote him as saying this:

PRESIDENT AHMADINEJAD: In Iran, we don't have homosexuals like in your country. (Laughter.) We don't have that in our country. (Booing.) In Iran, we do not have this phenomenon. I don't know who's told you that we have it. (Laughter.)

I am waiting to hear from my friends who are fluent farsi speakers about their take. but most sites are quoting that he said simply "homosexuals"

but here are some links:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6889
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1901916/posts

#32
bd
September 28, 2007
05:18 PM

It does not change the fundamental issue that whether or not its just gays or gay culture, negating it totally is very strange but I understand why he said what he said.

#33
temporal
URL
September 28, 2007
05:37 PM

Getting Lost In Translation: Ahmadinejad And The Media - By Ali Quli Qarai

First I want to make some remarks about that now world-famous statement of President Ahmadinejad at Columbia: "We do not have homosexuals in Iran of the kind you have in your country." The American media conveniently ignored the second, and crucial, part of his sentence as something redundant.

What he was saying is that homosexuality in the US and homosexuality in Iran are issues which are as far apart from one another as two cultural universes possibly can be. They are so dissimilar that any attempt to relate them and bring them under a common caption would be misleading. "Homosexuality is not an issue in Iran as it is in present-day American society." This was, apparently what was saying in polite terms.

(the link is on my blog)

#34
Zainub
URL
September 28, 2007
05:49 PM

bit late to join in the discussion, and again i'm no fan of ahemadinejad but bollinger was "factual" but "rude" ? ! Er, he called him a "dictator" when he come into power via democratically held elections! he's no where near as big a dictator as some of america's strongest allies in the region.

#35
Anamika
September 28, 2007
06:04 PM

bd, i think the difference is crucial - denying that gays exist is quite different from denying that a gay culture exists in a particular place.

I think unfortunately this requires a far more nuanced discussion and those are not possible on the internet where people are simply out to yell dissent down. But will give it a try:

I dont think "gay culture" is somehow universal or can exist across the world in similar ways. For all the gay pride parades in Israel and copycat clubbing/dressing styles, lets be real - the gay culture in Israel is quite different from Western Europe. And here we are still talking of a country that is ethnically tied to the West.

Even gay cultures within western Europe are wildly different. For all the "tolerance" that Dutch promote as their self image, step outside major urban centres and the "gay tolerant/friendly culture" dissipates pretty quickly. And lets not even talk of the conservative Catholic countries like Italy, Spain etc.

Now take that further to Iran or India. Trying to talk of "gay culture" in the same way would be daft. And frankly, try posing the same question to Indian politicos - yes even the so called secular lefties - the response wouldn't be so far off from that of Ahmedinijad. And that does NOT mean there aren't any gay people in India - simply that the public discourse and culture about and around them - is quite different.

The whole Columbia fiasco was US playing an ill mannered boor to a guest simply because they COULD! It was a show of power and frankly as a nonAmerican, I found Ahmedinijad's behaviour a hell of a lot classier. Funny the Americans never boo and hiss so publicly when the US makes deals with Iraqi hardliners who replace Saddam's rules on women with Taliban-style Sharia.

PS: We still have Victorian punitive laws on OUR books, albeit not punishable by death (at least officially).

#36
BD
September 28, 2007
06:40 PM

T, Anamika

I think we are going down the wrong direction of translations/he said that/he said this. Iran has the death penalty for gays and actually executes gay/homosexual people. I simply cannot expect him to agree on whatever form or words that homosexuality is there, gay culture is there or being gay is ok. He cannot. End of story. It is punishable by death and is rigorously enforced. THAT is the issue, not what he said.

The fact that USA also has the death penalty and that I hold no brief for the death penalty is a completely different argument! :)


Zainub
Well, Dictator was perhaps the wrong word to use for him. In any case, he is just the public face of a small part of the government anyway!, the main dictatorial end is on the clerics side! But most of his other "factual" bits were factual.

#37
temporal
URL
September 28, 2007
08:29 PM

beady:

the horse is dead

the one you are flogging

;)

#38
bd
September 28, 2007
08:41 PM

chuckles

T, you have to realise that flogging a dead horse is done due to two reasons. One is the stupid reason of trying to make it run, and the second is the personal reason to take out one's angst. The horse doesnt care and one gets rid of the angst! :)

cheers

bd

#39
smallsquirrel
September 28, 2007
09:43 PM

anamika... you simply fail to understand that ONE EFFING PERSON DOES NOT REPRESENT ALL OF AMERICA!

jesus in a jumsuit.

how many times must I explain this. most people were annoyed and upset by bollinger's behavior and felt he acted ridiculously. no need to turn one person's behavior into a treatise on american behavior on the whole.

and nice that we want to play the nuance game with ahmedijan's words, but the man is NOT stupid. he has said many things that are open to interpretation. the fact of the matter is, that iran MURDERS homosexuals. enough of a cultural nuance for ya there?!?!?!?

maybe not since you find ahmadinejan "classy"!!!

#40
YAWN not again
September 29, 2007
05:35 PM

SS: yes, well I guess ALL the people at Columbia AND US MAINSTREAM media add up to a few more than "ONE EFFING PERSON." I am glad you think that "most people" were annoyed but frankly you know what - THAT IS NOT WHAT SHOWS UP ON US MEDIA! You show me AMERICANS WILLING TO ENGAGE with Iran and that would amount to the TINIEST minority in the US of A, and I will be happy to change my mind. But even you aren't willing to listen - you have an opinion already and will hang on it regardless of the all other evidence. So stop already with the spin...that little swiftboat thing might scare Americans but it doesnt work outside.

As for the rest of your post - well, gee whiz, guess WHAT? AMERICA MURDERS PLAIN CIVILIANS TRYING TO GET ON WITH THEIR LIVES SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY ARE MUSLIMS AND NONWHITE AND HAVE OIL! (remember Afghanistan and Iraq?) So sorry if I cant really take that little black-and-white American moralistic stand! Dont see the US taking a huge moral stand on homosexuals even back in its on terrain. So please lets get real!

And when Americans behave like boors to a VISITOR (INVITED BY THEM BTW) YES, I think Ahmedinihad is classier. He was not rude to his hosts. On the other hand his hosts - read AMERICANS - who INVITED him treated him like shit. Nothing shows the lack of class better than that!

Oddly I dont hear good LIBERAL types like you answering the SECOND PART of Ahmedinihad's Holocaust statement: WHY SHOULD THE MUSLIMS PAY FOR EUROPEANS KILLING THE JEWS?

Or perhaps that is TOOOOO nuanced for you?




#41
Ruvy in Jerusalem
September 29, 2007
06:41 PM

Don't go to sleep just yet YAWN...

The "grand mufti of Jerusalem - a Gazan prick promoted by the Brits to be a voice for Arabs so they would have an excuse not to build a Jewish state - fled off to Berlin to be at Hitler's side, to help him kill the Jews. The Egyptians, Iraqis and South Syrian Arabs all were influenced by the Nazi "kill the Jews" propaganda. They drank it up like little kids drink up chocolate milk! They still do! Mein Kampf is still a best seller in Cairo!

This little prick from Gaza wanted Hitler to change his basic plan for getting rid of Jews. he didn't want the Nazis to ship them to "his" country to be concentrated and killed there, he wanted them killed in Europe. And Amir Husseini lobbied for turning slave labor camps for Slavs into murder camps for Jews.

This little prick trained another little prick to be his successor - the man's name was Yassir Arafat

So, to answer the simple question? "WHY SHOULD THE MUSLIMS PAY FOR EUROPEANS KILLING THE JEWS?"

The answer is that they had a vested interest in the Jews dying in Europe. But the Moslems wanted the Jews dead just as much as the Nazis did - and just as much as the Moslems still do!

So, to put it very simply, their appetite for the death of my people cost them ALL of their rights to this country, Eretz Yisrael, the land I live in, and the land that I will die to defend. Now it belongs to US JEWS and the bloodthirstiness of the Arabs have cost them any rights they claim to this land. Let the South Syrians go to north Syria, and the Iraqis return to Iraq, and the Egyptians return to stink in the sewers of Egypt. No compromises, no deals, no nothing! We do not need peace - we need victory over the enemy!

Hope that isn't too nuanced for you.

Now you can go to sleep...

#42
tbs
September 29, 2007
07:44 PM

Ruvy,

I suggest you take a cold shower and relax!

The hatred dripping from your post is too much really, and you know what else? this persecution complex of you poor jews hated by the whole world is really just another whine and getting old now!

Please find something new and let someone else whine for a few decades, you monopolised the last 6, and had a good portion of the 200 before those 6, so allow someone else to whine for a change.

Now I will go back and stink up some sewer in Cairo.

Sleep well Ruvy and have pleasant dreams, hopefully not of dying in some war.

#43
Salim
September 29, 2007
09:56 PM

The Jews are strange, they go on grabbing other lands kill babies and grand parents (of course they say sorry since they mistakenly did that) and if any critics stand up, they start mantras of "Anti-Semetic" Holocaust ,6 Million gassed !!! we are victims, bla bla.
The zionists have same genes that HITLER, STALIN, SADDAM, except time difference.
Send Netanyahu,to pre-world war II he is no different than Hitler. Bring Hitler to this time he will be tamed just as Ehud Olmert is tamed now.
So my dear JEWS stop this being victimized theory and accept that the state of ISRAEL is a Ziono-Fascist , Apartheid, and a entity of Land Grabberes.
SHALOM = PEACE = SALAM

#44
Ruvy in Jerusalem
September 30, 2007
12:58 AM

It doesn't interest me if any of you do not like my "whining."

Frankly, the only "whine" you'll hear out of me is the whine of an M16 on full automatic, blowing away terrorists, if it comes to that. Not too many days ago, Arab terrorists did a drive-by shooting at Shilo Junction, about a mile from here, so they've reopened the terror spigot.

I've told you the facts of the matter, and if they do not please you, that's too damned bad. I'll keep rubbing your noses in the link between Arab "nationalism" and Nazism until it sickens you and until you all finally admit to the truth - or until you admit that you just want us to die already so you can cheer our deaths.

As for "hate" - do not mistake "hate" for cold blooded determination not to be driven from one's home. Whether you like it or not, this is my home, and I'll not be driven from it. I don't give a damn what you all think.

It is good to die for one's country.

#45
Aaman
URL
September 30, 2007
01:13 AM

We don't want any dying on any side, if that can be worked out, thank you:)

#46
Salim
September 30, 2007
01:33 AM

Ruvy you are defending your Fascist state, which is no different from third Reich, the only difference is of time and numbers.
IF you think it is right to blow up the Arab resistance against Fascism , they also do have the right to do all against occupation,the reality is what ever you are going to prove, Israel will be remembered as Ziono-fascist, land grabbing entity.
Come on man no doubt you guys are hard working, perfect Managers and your Lobbyist and PR mangers are simply the Best but at least do not justify your State. You guys have illegally taken others land orchards and everything, but please at least show some decency and don't praise your state.

Could you people for a while stop talking about Holocaust and the whole History and see the actions of present State of Israel, by doing so I bet the world will be safe place to live.

#47
Salim
September 30, 2007
01:38 AM

Ruvy in Jerusalem :

And you defend dying for your country ( A fascist ideology) and at the same time label the Arabs as Terrorists who are actually defending themselves and fighting for their homeland.
Man show some respect, after all you got your country and now shut up and stop justifying it at least in chat rooms, and live this affair to the Lobbyist in Capitol Hill.

#48
Salim
September 30, 2007
01:43 AM

Ruvy Jerusalem #44
"So, to put it very simply, their appetite for the death of my people cost them ALL of their rights to this country, Eretz Yisrael, the land I live in, and the land that I will die to defend. Now it belongs to US JEWS and the bloodthirstiness of the Arabs have cost them any rights they claim to this land"

Sounds to me like this "
Some Land Grabbers take poor mans land and when the guy hit them back, they the occupiers say , now you lost all the rights since you hit us . No talk , no peace etc"

#49
Salim
September 30, 2007
01:52 AM

Ruvy in Jerusalem" # 44

"'ve told you the facts of the matter, and if they do not please you, that's too damned bad. I'll keep rubbing your noses in the link between Arab "nationalism" and Nazism until it sickens you and until you all finally admit to the truth -"

And their are many who already believe in the truth equating Nazism and Zionism , Israel and third Reich , Hitler and Sharon.

#50
salim
September 30, 2007
06:00 AM

To ruvy in jerusalem
"""As for "hate" - do not mistake "hate" for cold blooded determination not to be driven from one's home"""

And what about the thousands of Arab Refugees when your marauding , invading, thuggish IDF, left after invading their lands.
You people got your state as I told in previous messages "Stop defending it" nobody can take the land that you grabbed since you have the BEST army and TOTAL support of western DEMOCRACIES. Now stop crying that you are victims and stop blackmailing the "NOT CHOSEN"

#51
Ruvy in Jerusalem
September 30, 2007
07:58 AM

Salim,

You made my day! Five comments to my one! Evidently what I said stuck you good because reading what you wrote reminded me of the squealing of a stuck pig.

For all that, what I said still stands. The tie between "Arab nationalism" and Nazism is a close one, and the Arab admiration for Hitler is deep and has lasted more than sixty years after the bastard's death.

So for all of your squealing, Arab nationalists still stink of the swastika and the Jew-hatred that motivated the murder of two hundred innocent people living in Hevron in 1929. That is why my sympathy for the "poor Palestinians" just doesn't exist.....

#52
salim
September 30, 2007
08:14 AM

Well you may claim that tie to be near one but reality is ISRAEL = THIRD REICH, SHARON = HITLER, ZIONISM = FASCISM + NAZISM + APARTHEID + RACISM

Well my 5 comments to your one reminds you of squealing of a stuck Pig, but i just told you in all my comments just stop praising your "BASTARD Zionist entity" You will be always carrying the day, for the reasons everybody know. (JUST SUE THEM "JEW ME SUE ME")

No matter what ever you do your Entity will never gain respect as a normal state.

Well you may not have any love towards the Palestinians , so also I carry no sympathy towards the present day Zionist, even they keep on crying that 6 Million were gassed.(well honestly I doubt that figure).

By the way I am not an ARAB but associate my self with their misery.

#53
Sirius
September 30, 2007
08:18 AM

What is the deep reason for hating the Israelis? Will there never be a day when everyone gives up their hatred, and be friendly again?

#54
Aaman
URL
September 30, 2007
08:31 AM

Isn't this article supposed to be about the poor, wronged Iranians, whom no one loves or understands, and condemns for no fault of their own. Why - the Persians wouldn't hurt so much as a fly, and their universities are veritable models for the Ivy League. Their president is a Ph.D, and their government is a benevolent welfare state, innit?

#55
Ruvy in Jerusalem
September 30, 2007
08:48 AM

"We knew afterwards there was no WMD..."

Smallsquirrel,

Americans got snowed good in the ramp up to the invasion of Iraq. The Bush administration crapped all over you and lied through their teeth to get an invasion of Iraq going. No argument there.

But some things were true. Old Uncle Saddam DID have weapons of mass destruction, and was very interested in using them against Israel. For whatever reason, though - the true reason has died with Saddam Hussein - he shipped the weapons to Syria several weeks before the United States invaded his country.

NOW, the Syrians (and presumably the Iranians) are reaping the benefit of them and they are aimed right at us. Among these weapons are chemical warheads. And these weapons will be used in a missile attack on the State of Israel.

Only after the State of Israel is made weak and helpless will the United States use its own planes and missiles to take out Syria and Iran. The goal of the American State Department is to reverse the "error" of allowing a sovereign Jewish state to arise in Eretz Yisrael.

But, as Shakespeare wrote, "many a slip occurs between cup and lip." The nasty surprises on the way for the United States are written in Prophecy.... ;o))

#56
Ruvy in Jerusalem
September 30, 2007
09:03 AM

"Isn't this article supposed to be about the poor, wronged Iranians,...."

Aaman, you are so right. But that sweet PHD of a leader the Iranians (they changed Persia to Iran because it means "Aryan" - the Nazis resonated with them, too) have wants to get rid of us. Hey, he wants more, but he didn't talk about it at Columbia. He wants his mahdi (he claims to have met the fellow) to proclaim his rule from the Temple Mount.

In order to do that, an Iranian (or Iranian controlled) army has to be occupying the Old City, and the Temple Mount has to be standing. This is why I'm convinced that there will be no missile attacks on areas east of Giv'at Ram, which is where the prime minister's office building stands.

Ahmadinejad is playing messianic politics, pushing his very own messiah.

The only thing I finds admirable in this fellow is that he actually believes what he says when he says it.

#57
smallsquirrel
September 30, 2007
09:49 AM

salim... you know, you might have had some people interested in what you had to say until you saw the line and not only crossed it, but ran roughshod all over it. your racism is as bad as the other side of your argument. it was not just zionists that suffered in the holocaust, but also every day jews and homosexuals and roma. but you don't care. your words like "jew me sue me" identify you as someone who is simply a bigot.

ruvy... I think again we're gonna have to agree to disagree. and yeah, it's bad to die for one's country, ruvy... it's much better when everyone is alive and free and self-determination is the law of the land.

#58
Salim
September 30, 2007
10:13 AM

SS , I agree that I crossed the line , but if you see the previous messages of Ruvy in Jerusalem he started that, I should not have written all that , but believe me I really do not believe in what I have written.


#59
Salim
September 30, 2007
10:27 AM

Ruvy you are again spreading your lies(propaganda)

"Saddam Hussein - he shipped the weapons to Syria several weeks before the United States invaded his country."
where did you get this information, even this is not mentioned by UNCLE BUSH. Or is it a new lie by Mossad and AIPAC to force a American invasion of Iran and Syria.

In #56 "He wants his mahdi (he claims to have met the fellow) to proclaim his rule from the Temple Mount."
Who told you that his Messiah is to rule from Temple Mount{(if there is one)(I believe there is Dome of Rock please don't erase it)}, his Mehdi is a Shiah Imam who would appear in Qum , and rule from there, shiah theology does not give importance to Al-Aqsa complex anyways.
You are quick at criticizing the Shiah-Muslim Messiah, but do not hesitate in taking funds from Christian-Zionists who already is waiting for a war between Russia-China-Muslims on one side and Israel and US on other side, !!!! well no body ask them how many jews would perish in that. And then Jesus will come and run his Kingdom from Jerusalem and automatically all Jews will accept him Messiah.

#60
smallsquirrel
September 30, 2007
11:57 AM

salim, sorry, but how can I believe you? I also find a lot of the things that other people write very distasteful and ridiculous, but I would never say the kinds of things you have said. as a jew I am offended by the hateful things you wrote, and I am saddened that you must think that all jews agree with settlement, agree with the policies of the israli government, etc. because we do not. but in your anger at ruvy you have offended more than just him. as a jew who lost family in the holocaust what you have said is deeply hurtful.

I know there are things to be very and rightfully angry about, but saying what you've said will get no one closer to understanding.

hate only creates more hate. please remember that.

peace

#61
Sirius
September 30, 2007
12:14 PM

As far as the west is concerned, they have proved nothing about their secular credenials.They have been waging war in the Middle East even before WWI, crusades have been going on in the name of Christianity.Jesus would not like that.Jesus never said that he needed anyone to spread a system of worship, he said that brotherhood and love should be spread all over.So to establish its credentials the West must first stop abusing the world in the name of Jesus, stop trying to liberate what is already liberated (Jerusalem) and try to liberate themselves from their one sided mindset.They must stop using the muslim regions as a punching bag to assert their arificial authority exemplified by Bush.They must be able to prove that they really are Jesus's lambs rather than some mercenaries trying to prove that their religion is superior to another religion.If you can win over others hearts, then there will be no need to fight wars.

#62
Sirius
September 30, 2007
12:15 PM

Please read credentials instead of credenials.Excuse my frequent typos, I type too fast.

#63
Salim
September 30, 2007
12:17 PM

Dear SS,
Sometimes we lose our mind and try to be more hateful than others, that exactly happened in my earlier comments, but believe me I really do not mean that. Even while writing I realised that I am passing the line of Tolerance. But again its not necessary that we always mean what we write,but some people like ruvy understand such language only.

Again I am sorry for many of my comments.

#64
smallsquirrel
September 30, 2007
12:26 PM

salim... apology accepted. I can understand your anger. but in reality what happens when you do that is that it just gives the other a sense that they are justified in their feelings. it is a trap I have also fallen into myself. you get angry and mouth off. but people do not learn anything from such talk except to think they are more right than they were to begin with, and it only escalates the problem. but if you present reasoned facts, they might not agree with you then, but the truth will implant itself somewhere in their minds and one day might make a difference in their thoughts. that is the best you can hope for, no?

#65
Ruvy in Jerusalem
September 30, 2007
02:56 PM

Salim,

This article is particularly for you, to give you a clear picture of reality in this country, as opposed to propaganda. This article

from Israel National News
talks about the attempt of a group of people to build sukkót (booths for eating) in a place that is empty, a closed military zone, and which is unowned by anybody at present. This is exactly what your propaganda calls a "land grab."

But that is not the point. Let's get to the money shot here.

One marcher, Sarah Dayan, underscored the need to continue to build Jewish communities throughout the Land of Israel.

Dayan, whose son died in a terrorist attack in Kiryat Arba while guarding a site for the Israel Electric Company "two weeks and nine years ago" was determined to make it all the way up the hill, regardless of how long the climb would take.

"If we don't settle this land, who's going to do it?" she asked. "The leftists? People from Tel Aviv?"

Attorney and former Knesset member Elyakim Haetzni offered a similar observation during a speech to the activists in which he urged them to fight to keep every inch of Judea and Samaria.

"If we go back to the Green Line we won't have anything at all," he asserted, "because [the Arabs] will eventually take everything back," referring to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's plan to donate large parts of Judea and Samaria to the Palestinian Authority.

"This is not a democracy," he said. "The tools of the media are not in our hands. The only nationalist [broadcast outlet] was Arutz-7, and they shut it down."

The Kiryat Arba resident added, "The only answer that we can give is here. If I can't talk, at least I can do something. Our actions will talk."


The people here are opposed to the government, the very government you call "nazi." This government wants to surrender to foreign Arab control all of Judea and Samaria. The government has on is side the army, most of the media, most of the economic leaders. It has shut down opposition Jewish voices, either legally or illegally, and countenanced the murder of dozens of rabbis and community leaders in Judea and Samaria, as well as expelling the Jews who had built lives in Gaza at the invitation of the government controlled by leftists

Do you realize how stupid your remarks sound? If you want to identify with the misery of the Arabs, fine, do so. That is your problem. You put yourself in opposition to the very Qur'an that gives the Children of Israel the right to rule this land according to the word of Allah.

That is your book, not mine, unless, I am mistaken.

Don't make an idiot of yourself by swallowing what is obviously false Arab propaganda. The very man you called the equivalent of Hitler, Ariel Sharon, lies in a bed rotting like a bad tomato - Divine punishment for expelling the tomato growers of Gush Qatif from their homes to please the United States and the European Union, and to keep his sorry ass out of a jail cell! A Nazi would do such a thing to Jews, and Sharon did just that. Are you taking my side in this argument?

If you write to me, do remember that I do not represent the opinion of the government of Israel. I have no use for the bastards. May they all rot in hell!

But there are too many of us in Judea and Samaria for the IDF to throw out of our homes. This is not Gush Qatif, and the soldiers know it. So Olmert and Peres can write their plans, and conspire to destroy the Jewish towns and villages, but they will not succeed. And deep inside, they know it, too.

What they need is an excuse to call in foreign troops to do their dirty work for them. Such foreign troops are sitting on ships of the coast of Lebanon, and have been sitting there since September 2006. So, that is what they are going to try to do at some point. As I told Smallsquirrel, some nasty surprises await them, surprises already written down in clear Hebrew. But being pagan bastards, they will not take the words of my ancient prophets seriously.

Too bad for the fuckers....

Oh, and Aaman, this directly concerns Iran and its plans for an empire. That too, will be foiled....

#66
Anamika
September 30, 2007
03:08 PM

Ummm, Ruvy - you are a fanatic and we have discussed this before. But given that MY people have been killed for FAR TOO LONG as "pagan bastards" by various people of the book - yes, include the Jews in their because of their intimate involvement with British Colonialism - don't you think an apology is due?

Funny that small squirrel finds it offensive when Salim posts his views but finds NOTHING offensive about your qualifying people who do not follow your particular line of belief as "pagan bastards"!

In disgust...

#67
smallsquirrel
September 30, 2007
03:22 PM

anamika... don't drag me into this... I have made it clear before that I don't agree with Ruvy... I just don't argue him point for point any more because I don't see the use in it. and if you have something to say to me, say it to ME... Ruvy and I are not partners.

go and be disgusted, just get your shit correct when you do it, and leave me out of it...?

#68
smallsquirrel
September 30, 2007
03:25 PM

that last line was not a question

and also, maybe if you learned how to read and actually did so you would see in my response to salim that I don't agree with ruvy.

you're just too busy being shrill to notice...

#69
Ruvy in Jerusalem
September 30, 2007
03:54 PM

Anamika,

I do not view Hindus as pagan bastards, nor as pagans at all. If I did, I could not participate on this site in good conscience. While I do not understand all the essential concepts of Hinduism, and do not pretend to, I do understand quite clearly that what are translated in English as Hindu "gods" or "goddesses" are reflections of the G-dhead. That is just to clear the slate with all the Hindus on the site, including you.

If you wish to demand apologies from the foreigners who have persecuted and killed YOUR people, you certainly ought to do so, beginning with the Moslems, and continuing with the Christians who still attempt to steal Hindu souls in your country.

I honestly do not see where Jews have persecuted your own people, but if you wish to bring something forward, by all means do so - something other than guilt by association, please, which is what you have raised in the comment above. And then approach Smallsquirrel. She lives in India. I've not set foot in your land nor exploited a single Indian in my entire life.

From what little I do know, Indian Jews have not made much of a contribution to politics in your nation, but they have been part of the military, and have been important in the entertainment and literary fields. And, from what little I do know, the vast majority of the Jews who once lived in your country left for either Israel or the United Kingdom.

As for the Europeans sitting on the boats off of Lebanon, they are nominally Christians, but they have mostly abandoned their faith altogether. Assuming that Christians are not pagans, if they have abandoned their faith altogether, that leaves them as pagans....

You were saying, madame?

#70
Temple Stark
URL
September 30, 2007
08:19 PM

Other than Salim and Ruvy (let me ignore the complexity of Ruvy for now) I would believe there is much more agreement here than disagreement in the comments. Quite refreshing compared to what usually happens where everyone runs first to paint demons rather than looking toward sensibility. See most any American online forum for proof.

The consensus could be thus: Bollinger was a petty, prick who should have let his students do the questioning. He achieved absolutely nothing but to indeed gain some sympathy for President Ahmadinejad.

Iran's president said some very silly things, but he's been trying to kick-start his stand-up comedy career for years. He definitely has some loathsome ideas, but on the flip side believing that evolution and man-made global warming doesn't exist is also way up there on the stupid-o-meter.

At the same time, Ahmadinejad knows it is so easy to bluster and get people's panties / knickers in a wad. He plays people for chumps and the chumps respond.

In this post, the answers to the questions aren't much, but they are even-handed. By that I mean where the questions are called stupid there is, as answer, more opinion and assertion than anything factual. That's fine for all that, but not convincing in any way.

- Temple

#71
Salim
September 30, 2007
11:45 PM

Ruvy
"One marcher, Sarah Dayan, underscored the need to continue to build Jewish communities throughout the Land of Israel."

What do you exactly mean by the Land of Israel, does it also include lands occupied in 1967 or the land between Nile to Euphrates. The story of settlement in Judea and Samara is still a illegal settlement story unless you believe in promised land.

No worries for you as I told you before nobody can take the lands that you have already "grabbed" , for the reasons well known.

I just request you people not to defend the illegal occupation morally, "ISRAEL can defend this only with ruthlessness, brutality, as you told before with your M16's , and your Lobbyist sitting in Washington.

#72
Ruvy in Jerusalem
October 1, 2007
12:04 AM

Salim,

I'm done trying to explain anything to you. Go on believing you bullshit and defending the lies you believe. Tossing pearls before swine is indeed a waste of time....

We'll just let it stand as fact, then, whether you like it or not. Arab nationalism and Nazism are tied together like twins in the womb. If that it where you wish to put your ideals, be my guest. It's your head in the toilet, not mine....

The day will yet dawn when the illegal Arab occupation of Shekhem, Gaza, Bet LeHem, Hevron and all of the rest of the Land of Israel will be ended; a Temple of the G-d of Israel will grace the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and the foreign contaminations now there will be gone.

#73
Salim
October 1, 2007
01:28 AM

Ruvy your last letter shows the hatred, Fascism, racism and frustration that is brewing in you against the not-chosen.
"""We'll just let it stand as fact, then, whether you like it or not. Arab nationalism and Nazism are tied together like twins in the womb"'
You may believe that but majority believes that the Zionist in Europe collaborated with Nazis to enhance the formation of Zionist sate.
The early Zionist were prepared to take and independent state even in Uganda, that everybody knows well, so their belief for the promised Land (in Palestine)was fake


Well you continue your beliefs Grandpa but you people can defend the Illegal occupation on moral grounds just sitting in Blogs or chat rooms.During my 7 years in western nations I met many students from Israel , almost all of them serving in the Army but nobody had guts to defend the occupation. Either they skip the thing or blame the Ultra-Orthodox like you who are seen as drain on the resources of Israel.
""a Temple of the G-d of Israel will grace the Temple Mount in Jerusalem """
Well considering the fact that Solomon was a Muslim(My belief in quran is as strong as your belief in torah and talmud) ; his temple in the form of Al-Aqsa is already there. And the present state of Israel is not a Jewish state, it is just a Zionist entity so I doubt it is in favor of Allah, the same God who promised the Jews a land.

#74
sridhar
October 1, 2007
02:59 AM

Wasn't Hitler inspired by the massacre of 'Red Indians'at the hands of the American White settlers? Did not the founding fathers refer to native Indians as savages?

The point is when the American slaughter of native Indians was glossed over in the pages of history, it paved way for another bloodbath of the Jews.

The hypocricy of American support of Jews stands exposed when the U.S. establishment was largely indifferent to the plight of the Jews during the War. The support came from the U.S.from 1967 onwards when the U.S. etablishment realised that they were a awesome fighting force to tame the Arabs.

The six day War was crucial in establishing the U.S.military-oil oligarch with Israel.While there were exceptionally humane Americans who deplored the systematic killing of the Jews, the organised support for the Jews came from U.S.when they realised that the state of Israel could be used as a credible fighting force to thwart Arab Nationalism and the control of oil.

And let us not forget the systematic and clinical killing of the Jews was entirely an European enterprise.Whether we find the Iranian President a likable person is not germane to the issue as Iranians are no worse than the American people.

#75
smallsquirrel
October 1, 2007
03:25 AM

sridhar, no the slaughter of american indians is NOT glossed over now in education in the US. (Also the term "red indians" is not used, it's considered offensive)

I simply do not understand your point. it's like saying A + Rabbit = supermarket

#76
Anamika
October 1, 2007
03:41 AM

Ruvy - ever hear of Disraeli? Or wait! In YOUR book he wasn't REALLY Jewish! And thus was "contaminated"? Funny how people like you (and the big thrust of Zionist discourse) always holds the rest of the world as "collectively responsible" for the trouble visited on the Western Jews but never applies that same standard to your own actions.

As for asking for "apologies" - the issue is not apologies but compensation and return of property - something that has never happened for any other holocaust except the Jewish one.

My family possessions sit in British and American homes and museums (yes, Jewish ones too) and any attempt to get them back are brushed off with "how we need to move ahead." While any mention of the Jewish holocaust is of course sacred. And hey its now 50 billion and counting in compensation...

Meanwhile, the Nuremberg standard is conveniently gotten rid of when it ends up having to deal with white (and some of whom were Jewish) people who did the killings of black South Africans. THEN we need a "truth and reconciliation commission" so we can "move on."

Never mind that Israel was the only country publicly feting the South African leaders at the height of apartheid, that there was a transfer of expertise in controlling and penning in "enemy" populations (well applied in the occupied territories now). And wait - Mr. Oppenheimer never needed to provide any compensation for the African dead - but hell, why should he! HE is one of "god's chosen people" and those who died were just innumerable faceless black "others."

Finally, SS: You may differ with Ruvy on the semantics and fine points but I have yet to see a substantial difference.

Btw, very odd that while you were so "shrill" going on about Ahmedinijad's view of the Jewish holocaust, you seem to ignore the second part of his comment - ie why should the Muslims pay for killing done by the Europeans?

Or perhaps answering that would show your similarities with Ruvy rather than substantive differences?


Its the hypocrisy and double standards I object to!

#77
Anamika
October 1, 2007
03:43 AM

PS: Ruvy - here goes a definition of "pagan" and obviously an apology is in order if you are planning to use that term in conjunction with "bastard" around people of my faith:

Pagan: 1. one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, 2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim, 3. an irreligious or hedonistic person.

#78
smallsquirrel
October 1, 2007
03:55 AM

anamika... you really do not know how to read, do you? you just prefer to get yourself all worked up into a lather about things you fabricate in your own mind and go on yelling from there. there is not time in the day for me to list out everything that I disagree with Ruvy about, but I am sure if you confirm with him he will also tell you that it is just about every point (he also disagrees with most things I say as well.) I have stated publically on MANY occasions, as well as on this very forum, that I am against settlement, against the war in Iraq, I do not share many of his views about America... and the list goes on. So what do I need to explain to you? What don't you get lady? The *only* thing I share with Ruvy is that we're both jews.

AHA! Maybe that is what you hate. It seems by your language above that you might be a bit of an anti-semite what with this "you people" talk.

As for your foaming at the mouth about Muslims paying for killing done by europeans, I have no idea what you're going on about, never mind supporting the idea.

#79
Ruvy in Jerusalem
October 1, 2007
05:41 AM

Anamika, since your name begins with an "a", I'll begin with you. Sridhar will have to await his turn in the Latin alphabet, at "s".

Disraeli, though he was baptized as an Anglican, was very proud to be a Jew. If his family didn't have to undergo baptism to further its ambitions in 19th century England, they would not have. So, if I read you right, you wish to hold all Jews responsible for the act of Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli in proclaiming Victoria as Empress of India.

How do you differ from the Christian rioters who screamed "Christ-killer!" as they ran through Jewish sections of town, looting and murdering Jews for the supposed sin of Judah Iscariot? They took the exact same attitude as you do now, demanding an apology from all Jews through the generations for the act of one. You haven't demanded my blood yet, but if you continue to exercise yourself in the fashion of a bellows to inflame and stoke your anger, I'm sure you'll get there.

If you want reparations, either for items stolen from your family personally, or from the Indian people as a whole, I agree you should get reparations, if not the items themselves returned - or both. India was looted by people who thought themselves superior to you, and who had the guns and technology to make that superiority felt - for a time. But for the most part, the reparations do not come from my people; they come from Christian Europeans, mostly Brits, who looted India as they did Egypt. Where they are owed by Jewish families, those families owe you. You'll not hear me saying you have to "move ahead" or some such nonsense.

As for calling Europeans pagan savages (or bastards), I have nothing to apologize for. I meant what I said, and stand upon my word. I made clear in comment #69 that my comments were not directed at Hindus and why. If you choose to continue to exercise yourself like a bellows stoking your anger and hate, that is your problem. But I do begin to see the source of the communal riots in your country. If you continue to stoke your anger this way in the face of what another says in explanation, it's no wonder that Hindus regularly violently attack Moslems and Christians, and the reverse in India.

Frankly, madame, for your own sake, I hope you do not work yourself into a heart attack from your anger. They are not fun, as I have been unfortunate enough to learn.

#80
Ruvy in Jerusalem
October 1, 2007
06:33 AM

Sridhar,

In your efforts to dispense "chomskyesque wisdom" you manage to miss quite a few points of fact.

Hitler may have been inspired by the American extermination of Indians, and it is true that the Indians are referred to as "savages" in the American DOI. In addition, they are not counted as full human beings in the original constitution of 1787.

But what we know for a fact is that Hitler was very impressed with the way the Turks were able to get away with killing Armenians in WWI. If the Turks could get away with killing Armenians, why shouldn't he get away with killing Jews? And as you have written elsewhere, he did not stop with Jews, murdering off the Roma in Europe as well.

But that can be dealt with at another time.

The main point to be addressed here is that like your model, Chomsky, you are so interested in building your framework of history that inconvenient facts just have to be bent out of shape or ignored to fit into it.

One of those inconvenient facts is that the United States State Department was alway opposed to the creation of any kind of Jewish sovereign entity in Eretz Yisrael.

Over the last sixty years, that State Department has done everything it could to sandbag and weaken the state that emerged. For the first forty years or so, it had to do this behind closed doors; many Americans and American Jews strongly identified with Israel for a variety of reasons. But in the last two decades, its hostility has come into the open starting with James "fuck the Jews" Baker as Bush's secretary of state.

Immense pressure was placed on Israel to stop making its own rifles - meaning the rifles the IDF uses is the inferior M16 - imported from America. Immense pressure was placed on Israel to stop manufacturing its own uniforms or boots. In short, tremendous pressure has been placed on Israel to rely exclusively on the US for arms and armaments. And the closer Israel has gotten to America, the weaker it has gotten. This is a fact of life that any intelligent Israeli can see.

Te defeat of the Israeli military at the hands of its own leaders in 2006 has made Israelis realize that they cannot rely on the "vaunted IDF"; what you project as this powerful goliath is a weak ill-organized force that barely has enough arms to get by and has been reduced to counting bullets. Israeli peaceniks, projecting the same false image of the IDF that you do, have lost all significant support here for that simple reason. They cannot move beyond the Arab propaganda they hustle and the average Israeli is smart enough to smell the bullshit.

And the average Israeli is smart enough to realize that the United States government doesn't give a damn for Israel or its people.

The American State Department is after oil, as you correctly observe. But to it, Israel is nothing but an obstacle to be eliminated with time.... And that is its precise program.

#81
temporal
URL
October 1, 2007
08:01 AM


ruvy:

i am sure when/if we meet i will find you hospitable and like-able person -- just like osama bin laden or mullah omar should i feel like meeting them

in your attempt to put a like-able face to israeli occupation on DC (paid at arms-length of course;) here your handlers must be wincing every time you put your foot in your mouth (will that be foot-fetish or mouth-fetish?)

i will take one reply of yours to illustrate:

Salim,
I'm done trying to explain anything to you. Go on believing you bullshit and defending the lies you believe. Tossing pearls before swine is indeed a waste of time....


i have leveled these very allegations against you sir....of course my words were not of such base and vulgar usage as yours;)


We'll just let it stand as fact, then, whether you like it or not. Arab nationalism and Nazism are tied together like twins in the womb. If that it where you wish to put your ideals, be my guest. It's your head in the toilet, not mine....

this is not the time for me to comment on your uncouth upbringing...perhaps you could not help it...i understand...so moving on...you keep on repeating a lie hoping others would believe it and lend your lies credibility...sheikh amin al husseini...however noble a jersualem family he came from does not represent arab nationalism...you know it well...yet the goebbels in you (no aman, this is a fact, not invoking godwin here) keeps parroting this

the truth is the state of israel today is inflicting holocaust on palestinians...and state of israel today is a true successor state to hitler's germany you so love to revile

The day will yet dawn when the illegal Arab occupation of Shekhem, Gaza, Bet LeHem, Hevron and all of the rest of the Land of Israel will be ended; a Temple of the G-d of Israel will grace the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and the foreign contaminations now there will be gone.

hmmmmmmm

either you are brain dead or extremely delusional and should be institutionalised

read this carefully you and others like you are the occupier and the one you accuse above are the displaced and occupied people

and read this carefully also and let it sink in...i want everyone in israel, palestine and the region to live peacefully...either as one or several entities where every citizen has equal rights based on UN's charter of rights with minor modifications...exist and co exist would be the key operative phrase

btw, when is your country going to sign the NPT?

shalom

#82
salim
October 1, 2007
08:28 AM

Ruvy in Jerusalem: Ruvy in you last comment you are so ungreatful to US, do you know tha much of the hatred that US recieves is due to unconditional support of Israel(i terror), you recieve 3 billion dollars yearly military aid, support in millions from Christian-Zionists and Evangelical Christians, no export duties, all your weapons can be tested on US soil, and the support is unending. One of the reasons US invaded Iraq was Israel, and the future US wars in the middle East will be for Israel as the main reason. Yet you are ungreatful to US.

You know one thing, for this comment on US I give you 100% support and I am pleased to Know that the US is hated by the Israel's also, good atleast we have one common point to agree.

#83
Anamika
October 1, 2007
08:32 AM

Small Squirrel: Funny how anyone who challenges Zionist and or Jewish positions is automatically labelled an anti-semite. Frankly, go ahead - Its the last refuge of contemporary hypocrites.

I do quote you: "As for your foaming at the mouth about Muslims paying for killing done by europeans, I have no idea what you're going on about, never mind supporting the idea."

My question is: Do you support the formation and maintenance of a Western settler colony in Palestine? A settler colony that followed previous similar experiences by expelling the indigenous population to ensure its "safety" and viability? And all simply to expiate the sins committed by Europeans against the Jews?

Seems to me like the Muslims are paying for European crimes there, and have been for a while.



#84
Aaman
URL
October 1, 2007
08:45 AM

Anyone wants to start an article on the Israeli pro/con situation, and reserve this piece for the Iranian pro/con situation?:)

'twould be timely given Ehud Barak's visit to India this week.

Incidentally, there are reports that Iranian gas might go to Pakistan if India does not sign the long pending pipeline deal by the end of October.

#85
smallsquirrel
October 1, 2007
08:51 AM

anamika... i *KNEW* you would say this: "Funny how anyone who challenges Zionist and or Jewish positions is automatically labelled an anti-semite"

no, that's not true.... you are the first person I have said that to here, I do think. notice above I did not even call salim an anti-semite, even after he said some awful things about jews because I knew he was simply speaking from anger. you on the other hand, I suspect, really have issues.

AND FOR FUCK'S SAKE... for the last effing time. STOP ASKING ME IF I SUPPORT SETTLEMENT! I HAVE TOLD YOU IN MY LAST 3 RESPONSES THAT I DO NOT SUPPORT IT. Because you have asked me YET AGAIN about an issue that I have clearly addressed and stated that I do not approve of, it is clear to me that you do not read what others write... you simply go off half-cocked in your own self-righteous and ridiculous anger.

I think you are a pseudo-intellectual. And I think you need to learn how to engage in an actual dialog instead of talking to the evil jews in your head.

And it seems you owe me an apology. Until you can figure out why, leave me out of your ridiculous melodrama.

#86
Anamika
October 1, 2007
08:56 AM

Aaman, the discussion about Iran WAS linked to Israel and the Jewish holocaust quite early on. So lets not try to now sweep it under the rug.

Moreover, the positions of various posters are overtly linked to their stance on Israel and its apparently overwhelming right to world sympathy (and thus moral impunity), its brutal occupation of Palestine that feeds horror and anger in most thinking individuals, as well as its practice of unilateral aggression against other countries in the region. Moreover, there is an obvious hypocrisy in much of the Western media regarding judging ME countries by standards that are different from those for Israel (or indeed Western nations).

Any discussion of Iran can not be delinked from this basically because those demonizing that country, penalising its every attempt to assert national soveregnity and finally planning on invading it, are primarily supporters of US and Israeli state policies in the ME.

Any attempt to discuss Iran without reference to Israel would be partial at best and hypocritical at worst.

#87
sridhar
October 1, 2007
09:28 AM

hi Squirrel,
As late as 1987 American text books still used the terms half-breed and war-whooping to describe the AmericanIndians. The horrific genocide of Native Americans(estimated to have wiped out 97%) was described as frontier initiative.Have the Americans admitted the fact of genocide of native Indians in the recent textbooks? Do you have in America any museum dedicated to their memory?

If the bloodbath of Jews was at the instance of Germans(Europeans)under Hitler is it logical to go after the Iranian President? I may have missed some esoteric points of the debate. But when does hate speech = actual genocide of Jews?

I had Iranian friends at school and college and I didn't find them sporting fangs and having horns under their headscraves.

#88
smallsquirrel
October 1, 2007
09:33 AM

sridhar... maybe if you visited Washington DC you might go to the National Museum of the American Indian.

http://www.nmai.si.edu/

Do your research before you spout off.

And I went to school in the US and textbooks I saw NEVER used those terms. They might have in the 60's but definitely not the 80's. As for the rest of what you said about Jews and Iran, I have no idea what you're getting at. I also have Persian friends (including one long-term boyfriend), and I speak some Farsi. I also never said that hate speech equaled genocide. Don;t put words in my mouth!

#89
Ruvy in Jerusalem
October 1, 2007
09:51 AM

Aaman,

I find myself in substantive agreement with Anamika here (at comment #86), believe it or not. The regime in Iran threatened to erase this nation - and is not only developing the means to deliver a nuclear punch to back up its threat, but has developed imperial forces to extend its control to Syria and Lebanon with hopes developing a secure route through Iraq. So any discussion of Iran immediately brings to the fore its big target in the Middle East - Israel.

As much as one would like to de-link the two topics, they are joined at the belly-button and no amount of semantic surgery will separate them unless Iran is effectively de-fanged. The various terrorist gangs that pretend to govern the Arab ruled areas of Israel are always hustling Ahmadinejad and Abdullah of Arabia for money and support. 'Al Qa'eda messes with both Iraq (probably to prevent Iran from getting too strong a foothold) and with the Gaza Strip. Iran is developing into exactly what our sages warned it would develop into centuries ago - the leader of a coalition of Arab states known in the Bible as "the king of the south".

It is not an issue of partiality or hypocrisy, as Anamika suggests. But when you discuss a bowl of spaghetti and meatballs, you discuss, the meat, the spices and the pasta and the sauce together. Attempting to separate them in discussing them is artificial and misinformative, to say the least.

As for Barak visiting India: In all truth, Ehud Barak is an incompetent military commander plagued with bad judgment and an overdeveloped ego (other academics are plagued with the same problem, so he is not alone). If the guy doesn't fuck up any deals reached by Indian and Israeli negotiators in his visit to your shores, it will be a wonder. That is all that need be said about the fool.

In terms of what Indians think about Israeli policy, he faces, at a much higher level, the same doubt and division in attitude that one finds here at DC. And he is not the fellow to win over anybody to his side.

#90
salim
October 1, 2007
09:56 AM

Ruvy, you suspect sharon, barak, US , IDF then whom do you think is your friend. perhaps your M16 which can kill Arab babies and Grandpas, and help you to grab what ever u think is promised to Chosen people by the Almighty.

#91
Anamika
October 1, 2007
10:23 AM

small squirrel, I am not asking you about "settlers"! I am asking about the STATE OF ISRAEL which is the last of European settler colonies, constructed by expelling and killing people. So answer that question!

Besides, I would rather be a pseudo-intellectual rather than establish feeble liberal credentials by trotting out husbands and boyfriends and various other men as evidence of ideological stand or moral viewpoint as you do.

One of the more distasteful versions of apparently liberal apologia is "my best friend/boyfriend/girl friend etc. is black/asian/gay/etc (fill in the blank)." But obviously you haven't learned that.

#92
sridhar
October 1, 2007
10:30 AM

Hi Ruvy,

You appear to have missed the point that American exeptionalism and benevolence is largely a fabricated myth. So when the President of an American academic institution lambasts the President Ahmadinejad of Iran, he should be told that effing defective people was state policy in California. Hitler admired the American eugenic laws and implemented it, he also admired the genocide of the American Indians which bumped off 97% of the Indians.

The State of Israel signed a Faustian pact with the U.S military establishment when it became a military arm of U.S.to police and manage the oil interests.As I mentioned Israel is important to U.S. as it enmeshes with the security goals of the U.S. establishment.If these goals change Israel may be dumped.But as things stand Israel is U.S strategic asset for the oil mafia.If not why are they pumping billions of dollars of aid to your country?

I do admit I am an eccentric fond of reading Jewish authors like Chomsky, Berlin and Hannah Arendt.My world view may be skewed at times but i abhor organised blood bath of the innocents of humankind whether they be Iranians,Iraqis,Jews or Roma.And I do not subscribe to the Ariel Sharon or Hitler's view of the human race.

Btw- What is Israel's stand on the Armenian genocide? Does it prefer diplomatic silence on this issue as Israel has close ties with Turkey?

#93
AnArch
October 1, 2007
10:35 AM

Can we bring up U.S.S. Liberty and still stay relevant?

#94
smallsquirrel
October 1, 2007
10:38 AM

anamika... you said "My question is: Do you support the formation and maintenance of a Western settler colony in Palestine? "

DUH! that questions asks if I support the Jewish settlers in Palestine. so that is what I asked. Learn how to communicate properly.

only now you've asked me a different question (probably because you realized your error and refuse to apologize for it). Do I believe in the state of Israel? Yes. But this state should not include parts of the Gaza Strip, West Bank, etc. where they have been asked to leave and the government has agreed to vacate but people are now illegally settling.

And besides in my answer above in #88 to sridhar where I said that about Persians (in response to where he said he knew some, so I said I knew some too) where else have I done that? you obvious have not learned any tongue-in-cheek humor. I was parroting him. but you're so full of hate you cannot see past yourself.

You're too much, lady. Your inability to form a coherent argument against anything I have actually said that is based in any kind of reality is downright laughable. I think you have serious, serious issues. you've been on one giant smear campaign against me, and not one word of it is based in reality.

#95
salim
October 1, 2007
10:44 AM

Oh Anamika you are getting too harsh on SS, she mentioned that she is not a pro-settler. And SS you also should not have invoked that antisemetic thing.
SS you being a Jewish there will be (by default) more pressure on you to oppose the radical thoughts of Ruvy((just as Muslims are reminded every time that they have to do more for peace)), so no offence from Anamika, when she commented that you are not countering Ruvy like you are replying Salim.

How it would be if we accept the Israeli (jewish state) and a Palestinian state and ofcourse all the Palestinians who were displaced and made refugees go back to their areas, no matter that means a non-majority Jewish state. A jewish state which looks to its neighbours for its security and not to US.

#96
Aaman
URL
October 1, 2007
10:46 AM

Isn't the Israeli fence intended as an international border?

#97
Anamika
October 1, 2007
11:14 AM

small squirrel - thank you for finally answering my question and for confirming my initial statement about you. My original question was "Do you support a settler colony in the land of Palestine?"

The term settler colony differentiates specific areas of European colonization because these were "settled" by the colonizers. The Americas, Australia, New Zealand and in part regions of southern Africa are categorized as "settler colonies."

Settler colonies DISPLACE the native population by genocide and/or expulsion and REPLACE them with a colonizing population. Settler colonies are thus different from colonies which are set up for political/military/economic gain where the indigenous populations are not replaced - as in much of Africa, most of Asia etc. This second process does not preclude genocide, but that isn't its primary goal.

So no, I dont owe you an apology. On the other hand, thank you for accepting that your ideological stance is not so different from Ruvy's. You soft-peddle the Naqba and the subsequent genocide of the Palestinians instead of actively advocating their destruction as Ruvy does. Frankly I find Ruvy's brand more palatable if only because its less hypocritical than yours.



#98
Ruvy in Jerusalem
October 1, 2007
11:18 AM

Temporal,

I know that at heart, you are a man of peace. Or at least that is how you see yourself. And you have been kind enough to compare me to bin Laden. Now if you could deliver some of his millions my way, I could travel to Canada and thank you properly for the compliment.

But you are a sorely deluded fellow in terms of what you expect of the world, and even more sorely deluded in terms of what has happened to the South Syrian Arabs who live/d here. Let's examine some of these idiotic claims of yours.

"The truth is the state of Israel today is inflicting holocaust on Palestinians."

I never met my relatives who died in World War II. I was born after the war ended. But I can guarantee you that they would have been overjoyed to sit in a jail cell, get two meals a day and access to something like a cell phone - even if they were tortured regularly with electric wire or whatever the goons in the Israeli prisons use. And I can tell you something else. Most of them wouldn't have died.

Put simply, if the Germans had treated Jews the way the Shab"as (Israel Prison Service) treats Arabs, there would not have been six million of us killed. It would have been more like 10,000 and nobody would be talking about the living skeletons they saw at the concentration camps at the end of the war. There would have been no Nürnberg trials, no denazification program, no nothing. And Germans would not have faced the condemnation of Jews for sixty years - condemnation they still deserve. The halbstarke there still attack Jews and still want us dead. They've learned nothing from the blood their grandparents shed.

This "Israeli holocaust of the Arabs shit" is a lie. And if you expect me or any other self respecting Jew to take that kind of shit without calling you out on it, you're a fool of the stupidest kind.

And the more you repeat this lie - you Salim and Anamika together - the more you lower yourselves, and the less respect you get from any intelligent, sentient human being.

The less respect you deserve.

But let's go after some more lies that you expect the world to believe. Sheikh Amin Husseini of a noble Jerusalem family? Maybe the family came from Jerusalem, but when the man decided to call himself "grand mufti" he was preaching hate in Gaza. You want to call a man who fomented murder and violence with the title of honor "sheikh"? And you have the eternal gall to say you want peace? What kind of hypocrite are you?!

The actions of this man Husseini stirred up rebellion and death in this country in the early twenties, resulted in a massacre of 200 Jews in Hevron in 1929, resulted in a rebellion in this country in the thirties, and finally, the actions of this man resulted in an attempted Nazi coup d'état in Baghdad, the training of Moslem Bosnians to serve as Nazi soldiers, and the use of slave labor camps in Europe, particularly Auschwitz, as a death camps to murder Jews - so that Jews would not be crowded here in Israel, the original plan.

"[the] State of Israel today is a true successor state to Hitler's Germany...."

Another lie you toss out, smooth, like an underhand pitch, Temporal.

The Moslem Brotherhood in Egypt worshipped the Nazi party. The coup leaders who overthrew the fellow who tossed out the Egyptian king were all Nazi sympathizers. Sadat was a sympathizer of Hitler's - so was Nasser. Mein Kampf is a best seller in Cairo. Nazis were hired by the Egyptians and Syrians to build up their armies and train their soldier. Today, Hamas recruits and trainees line up and give the Nazi solute. Mahmoud Abbas thesis was in what subject? Holocaust denial! Denying the very heinous murders that you and the damned Arab propaganda machine accuse us of daily!

If you expect any self respecting Jew not to call you a liar, again, you are fool of the stupidest and most deluded kind.

In days to come, Arabs will sacrifice camels and bulls at G-d's House of Splendor on the Temple Mount. [Isaiah 60:8] There will be a reconciliation in peace between all the Children of Abraham. But that will come AFTER the day dawns when the illegal Arab occupation of Shekhem, Gaza, Bet LeHem, Hevron and all of the rest of the Land of Israel will be ended; a Temple of the G-d of Israel will grace the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and the foreign contaminations now there will be gone.

#99
smallsquirrel
October 1, 2007
11:21 AM

anamika... whatever lady... I did not soft peddle anything. again you put words into my mouth and assign a stance to me that I have not taken. my ideological stance is very different from ruvy's but you're too busy being nasty to have a grip on the real issues.

you're a joke.

#100
Ruvy in Jerusalem
October 1, 2007
11:27 AM

One last point, Temporal.

I'm a Brooklyn boy. Brooklyn boys tell it straight. No bullshit, no baloney, no funny stories, no monkey business. Liars have no place at my table. I was raised to tell things straight up. If that is an unfortunate upbringing, I'd hate to see what you call a fortunate upbringing....

#101
Anamika
October 1, 2007
11:33 AM

Okay, so you don't soft peddle - lets really get down the basics:

Do you think the naqba was a good thing?

Do you think its morally right to throw out a colonized people to make room for people from another land?

Do you think that a people who have been treated badly in one part of the world should just move to another part and take over the land from the indigenous populations?

If so, what do you think about handing over DC or NYC to the Kurds for example as a settler colony in compensation for what they suffered under Saddam?

All the names you throw my way doesn't change the abhorrent hypocrisy you have expressed in your posts above.

#102
temporal
URL
October 1, 2007
11:43 AM

ruvy:

#81 remains unanswered specially the last part re: equality before laws...that would be an anathema and we know why;)

#98 is a self serving rant

i would let an informed reader judge them

:)

shalom

#103
smallsquirrel
October 1, 2007
11:44 AM

anamika... we don't agree on the basics, and I do not have enough time in the day to agree on a common language with you before we can even discuss the actual points. I am moving on. I don't find having a discussion with you to be at all interesting, challenging or even fruitful. I expect you will take pot shots at me for doing so, but frankly I don't care. I am happy with my life and myself and I do not need your acceptance or understanding to go on with my life. you, on the other hand, are an angry angry woman and I think you should consider therapy.

#104
Ruvy in Jerusalem
October 1, 2007
11:47 AM

"What is Israel's stand on the Armenian genocide? Does it prefer diplomatic silence on this issue as Israel has close ties with Turkey?"

Sridhar,

The State of Israel prefers diplomatic silence over truth in dealing with the murder of the Armenians by the Turks in WWI. If you go into the Armenian Quarter in the Old City, you can see maps pinned up showing Turkish slaughter sites during WWI. That is the degree to which the spineless fools who form the traitorous régime in Jerusalem are willing to recognize the murders and massacres of the Armenians by the Turks.

This stance extends to the rich, overfunded ego-games that are called the "Jewish Lobby" in America. Don't mistake them for what they are not. They are the supreme ego games of rich American Jews who think that money will buy them a place at the table of power. They do bot help Israel at all. They do foster the illusion among these American Jews that they are important. They are not, and they know it, deep in their guts. But it takes real courage to admit to a thing like that, and they are as spineless an the regime in Jerusalem.

Go read comment #100. Now see if you can tell me why I have such a low view of the government of Israel and the government of the United States and of the Jewish establishment....

#105
temporal
URL
October 1, 2007
12:05 PM

#100:

please!

there is never ANY justification for uncouth language or behaviour

name-calling and splintering invectives is the easier way out for imbeciles and those short on rationale

;)

shalom



#106
temporal
URL
October 1, 2007
12:07 PM

#100:

please!

there is never ANY justification for uncouth language or behaviour

name-calling and splintering invectives is the easier way out for imbeciles and those short on rationale

;)

shalom



#107
Ruvy in Jerusalem
October 1, 2007
12:11 PM

"when is your country going to sign the NPT?"

Your guess is as good as mine, Temporal. I'm not privy to what th idiots in the foreign ministry think, much less what the American ambassador tells the Israeli government what to do....

#108
temporal
URL
October 1, 2007
12:30 PM

107 ruvy:

so Israel can HAVE all the nuclear devices BUT god's wrath be reserved to other neighbors who should be ready to be blown away to oblivion if they strive for peaceful uses of the nuclear energy? (need i mention countries?)

and above on the borrowed shoulders of good old US of A!

why should the world at large continue to pay for the travesty perpetrated by europeans on the jews in the 1940s?

why AND for how long

and if you answer this please do not invoke god or i will ask you again 'whose god';)

shalom



#109
Ruvy in Jerusalem
October 1, 2007
01:13 PM

Temporal,

Read comments 41 and 98, again, focusing on the role of Amin Husseini. This is the man who cost the South Syrian Arabs any right to this country. He led them in murder, and then he brought about an even bigger murder in Europe.

Do I need to translate "itbaH el yahud!" and "el yahud klabna!" or is your Arabic good enough? That is the kind of shit every Israeli gets to learn about here...

South Syrian Arabs brought the "naqba" on themselves, and should consider themselves damned lucky that we are not genocidal Germans....

#110
temporal
URL
October 1, 2007
02:47 PM

ruvy:

forgive me if i call a spade a spade and not south syrian judean or samarian:)

the palestinians have been usurped, displaced and occupied for the crimes of your fellow europeans

amin husseini and others like him were minor clogs in adolf's machinations and not the other way around as you try to re write history

israel today is an undeclared nuclear power flaunting international law and safeguards much more blatantly than iran, north korea, pakistan, chinaall put together

save your arabic, yiddish, hebrew for a rainy day warna hum bhi hindi bolna shru kardaingay:)

palestinians ... brought the "naqba" on themselves, and should consider themselves damned lucky that we are not genocidal Germans....

the palestinians brought this on themselves as much as the jews brought them upon themselves as hitler would have us believe...right?

because of israeli displacement, subjugation, ghettoisation, westnbankistisation (read as bantustisation) the rest of the world is being made to pay for the crimes of europe and germany

remember what i advocate - one law for everyone in the region beginning with adherence to the UNHR's charter

you stay...palestinians stay...you have a right to return...they have a right to return...

shalom

#111
Ruvy in Jerusalem
October 1, 2007
03:26 PM

Debkafiles reports that the entire Russian staff of the Bushehr plant left the plant and flew back to Russia on 28 September.

According to Debkafiles there are three possibilities;

1. There is a problem between the Iranians and the Russians
2. There will be a sudden attack on Iran
3. Iran will launch a sudden attack.

Fun, ain't it?

#112
temporal
URL
October 1, 2007
03:34 PM

yeah fun for you

bush is itching to leave a quagmire behind

he cannot extricate from iraq

so iran here i come...iran will blockade straits of hormuz...hurl missiles towards israelis...they will retaliate...giving pentagon ammunition to intervene fully...thousands will die

that is your fun

y

a

w

n

#113
temporal
URL
October 1, 2007
03:40 PM

yeah fun for you

bush is itching to leave a quagmire behind

he cannot extricate from iraq

so iran here i come...iran will blockade straits of hormuz...hurl missiles towards israelis...they will retaliate...giving pentagon ammunition to intervene fully...thousands will die

that is your fun

y

a

w

n

#114
Ruvy in Jerusalem
October 1, 2007
03:50 PM

Temporal,

Pay attention to the news. The earthquakes are getting closer to Israel (Yemen). The disaster is creeping closer. The redemption is getting closer.

My book, not yours. My G-d, not yours. The prophecies of my people, not yours.

In my book, the "Palestinians" are a "no-people". The evidence is right in front of your eyes. Not only is there no "Palestinian state" there won't be, no matter who huffs or puffs to the contrary. The "Palestinian" people have been divided, and divided they shall remain. The issue is now for us Jews in Israel to figure that out and act accordingly.

Everything in your comment above - that is also huffing and puffing.

Temporal - a fitting name for you. Temporary....

Salaam

#115
temporal
URL
October 1, 2007
04:41 PM

your god let you wander for 6000 years?

palestinian god has let them wander for 60 years

so let us see whose god wins in the end?

i will pray for the safety of your family and for everyone in the occupied lands...and elsewhere in this wide world of our gods

so, why dislodge palestinians for the sins of europeans?

#116
Anamika
October 1, 2007
06:06 PM

small squirrel: Just for the record, just go back to #39 where a polite and open discussion was marred by your use of capital letters and "EFFING"? But you're right - that does not demonstrate rage issues.

Following a rather voluminous exchange, I pointed out that you seem to jump at Salim insisting he apologize (#66) but were quite happy to ignore the hate filled material from Ruvy. Btw the specific rant - I am inured to Ruvy's fanaticism - I objected to included the term "pagan bastards" - a term applied for over 500 years to Indians far more than to the nonbelievers ilk.

YOU then chose to respond extremely aggressively with expletives. But we shall STILL ignore that as a clear sign of your rage issues. So I asked you to move beyond the shrillness and explain why you choose to ignore the second part of Ahmedinijad's statement (#76)

You came back with: "...you might be a bit of an anti-semite" and a further accusation that I was "foaming at the mouth." (#78) Rather uncalled for but which does indicate deep rooted insecurities and rage. But lets move on...

I had asked questions quite civilly but perhaps that may be a case of Freudian transference of that rage you do not feel (note: as per your accusation of me being an anti-Semite, I refer only to the work of a "Jewish" thinker!)

I repeated my basic question to you and you responded with: "AND FOR FUCK'S SAKE... for the last effing time." (#85)

Is it terribly hard to not use expletives when you do not feel any anger?

And in the same message, you took the rather juvenile attitude by accusing me of going "off half-cocked in your own self-righteous and ridiculous anger" and then calling me a "pseudo-intellectual" who talked "to the evil jews in (their) head."

The above - a false accusation accompanied by hysteria - is a phenomenon often seen amongst teenagers and infantilized adult females (note: I still stick to the "Jewish" thinker!) who are unable to articulate their suppressed rage.

I repeated my question regarding settler colonies to you (#83). And you responded with more abuse (see above diagnosis).

Of course on a parallel scale you also brought in irrelevant references to your sexual past which you later dismissed as an attempt at humour. Of course the reference was a bit more complex as it wasn't simply to Persian friends (as in Sridhar's case) but also clearly pointed out the former sexual partner as "long term." An attempt to establish a relatively moral attitude to suppressed feelings about your personal relations? (Freud, that "Jewish" man again!)

Do you dream about this perhaps? Perhaps you should consider Freudian analysis after all. It shall help you achieve that happiness you insist you own.

I for one shall open that bottle of Rothschild to mark the end of a long and hectic day. You may take note that I have even chosen to support "Jewish" business even in my moment of leisure...


#117
Aaman
URL
October 1, 2007
11:15 PM

Iran says CIA,US Army is 'terrorist' agency

Iran's parliament has approved a nonbinding resolution to label the CIA and the US army as "terrorist organisations".

The move is seen as a diplomatic tit-for-tat after the US senate also voted in favour of a motion urging the state department to designate Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps a "terrorist organisation."

The signing of the resolution by 215 politicians at an open session of the Iranian parliament was broadcast live on television on Saturday.

The statement said: "The aggressor US army and the Central Intelligence Agency are terrorists and also nurture terror."


The use of atom bombs in WWII and depleted uranium munitions were referenced in the resolution.

#118
sridhar
October 1, 2007
11:37 PM

Anamika,
I have read your spirited exchanges and they must be carved in gold. Your post#101 raises important questions on the Palestian issue.

#119
sridhar
October 1, 2007
11:48 PM

Ruvy,#104

You have given a very honest reply on the issue of Armenian genocide. if i remember a number of Armenian Jews died in that slaughter. If we did disagree in the past it was issue based and never personal.

Take care my friend.

#120
smallsquirrel
October 2, 2007
12:44 AM

oh anamika, you do make me laugh...

over and out!

#121
smallsquirrel
October 2, 2007
12:46 AM

oh and sridhar, you chose to conveniently ignore the fact that you made a big mistake, eh?

yeah, thought so.

#122
Ruvy in Jerusalem
October 2, 2007
02:20 AM

Temple,

I've commented extensively on this article, perhaps too extensively. You've commented but little.

Let me draw your attention to these remarks, though. They scare me almost as much as those of the people actually determined to kill me and mine here in Samaria.

"Iran's president said some very silly things, but he's been trying to kick-start his stand-up comedy career for years. He definitely has some loathsome ideas, but on the flip side believing that evolution and man-made global warming doesn't exist is also way up there on the stupid-o-meter.

At the same time, Ahmadinejad knows it is so easy to bluster and get people's panties / knickers in a wad. He plays people for chumps and the chumps respond."


What scares me is that you do not take Ahmadinejad seriously at all. He, and his politics deserve to be taken very seriously, just like Hitler deserved to be taken seriously - and wasn't. This man poses a real threat - a more real one to Europe and Israel than the American mainland perhaps, but real nonetheless. Sophisticates view him as the mere cat's paw of the Russians, or as a powerless mouthpiece of the mullahs in Iran, but just as the bankers and conservative politicians of Germany did not own Hitler seventy years ago, the Russians do not own Ahmadinejad.

Until he had the real military power to back up his ambitions, Hitler, like Ahmadinejad, seemed a comic opera character striking heroic poses in Nürnberg and Munich. I suspect that some of your relatives fought the Nazi war machine that Hitler built, and perhaps some even died doing so. Had European politicians taken him seriously in 1936, far fewer people would have died attempting to erase his evil influence. As it is, many millions died and the evil influence of Nazism plagues us still....

That is why what you write scares me. You have not learned the lesson etched in blood and stone on the battlefields and memorials of the Second World War.

When your enemy speaks, pay careful attention. More likely than not, he is telling you his true intentions.

#123
Anamika
October 2, 2007
02:36 AM

Hey sridhar, thanks. Personal attacks and aggression seem to mark Israel supporters, who choose that form (and accusations of anti-Semitic) to any rational engagement on the issue.

To date I have yet to meet a single self-styled "liberal" Israel supporter who is willing to answer the questions I posed. Mostly because answering them would expose them as fanatics and/or hypocrites. I have no problems with people choosing "realpolitik" or even straight forward - "yes we made the Palestininans pay for the crimes" - because that would be a starting point for further discussion. But the self-righteous, moralistic preening is just too reminiscent of the old colonial attitudes.

Of course, these are the same people who blithely ignore opennly racist statements by Israel's founding fathers.

And they ignore the simple historical phenomenon that Zionism is intimately rooted to the same philosophical streams of Europe that led to Nazism - ie ideas of nations based on religion, language and/or race; superiority of particular races; and of course the corollary of that - the demonization, marginalization and exploitation of other races. But if you point out that Zionism and Nazism are - if not sibling streams - then at least close cousins - they will accuse you of anti-Semitism.

That is one reason I can cope with Ruvy's diatribes. He has picked a belief (however illogical and abhorrent one may find it) and sticks to it. At least his fanaticism is honest and - fortunately, not directed at my people.

Now going back to the discussion on Iran - when do you think US/Israel nexus shall unilaterally and without provocation bomb that sovereign nation? I would say about the time of Republican Party primaries. Any other guesses?

#124
Aaman
URL
October 2, 2007
02:44 AM

US trains Gulf air forces for war with Iran

While it is unlikely that America's Gulf allies would join any US air strike against suspected nuclear targets in Iran, their co-operation might be required to allow passage of warplanes though their airspace. American defence officials are also keen that Iran's Arab neighbours prepare to deal with any Iranian attempt to target them in return.


Most likely a disinfo/COINTELPRO article, but interesting, nevertheless

#125
Bob
October 2, 2007
03:12 AM

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this in the previous 124 comments but a couple of weeks ago Bush said that Hillary would most likely win the Democratic nomination. Is he endorsing someone who will carry on from his future attack on Iran? Is there a secret pact between the house of Bush and the house of Clinton? I sincerely hope my imagination is wrong on this. But I think the neo-cons/neo-imperialists and the Zionists in Israel are hungry for blood. will they ever stop? the greatest threat to peace in the Middle East and the world are not Ahmadinejad or Iran, it's Israel and its nukes! Most politicians in the usa, Canada, the uk, and other european countries are terrified to even admit this fact in public...it's the worst kept secret in international politics.

#126
Ruvy in Jerusalem
October 2, 2007
05:24 AM

I would politely suggest to the readers here that the time frame for significant events to occur may considerably be shorter than the next sixteen months. In other words, it may not matter which idiot seeks to be America's next president....

#127
smallsquirrel
October 2, 2007
06:08 AM

anamika... see, I told you that you would take pot shots and put words in my mouth, and you've done it.

you're a friggin joke, woman. I don't support israel OR zionism (although I do think israel has a right to exist), have said I do not, and yet you keep on making shit up. you must be one bored, desperate, sad woman to keep attacking someone and lying about them even after they make things clear. it's funny the shit you accuse me of even though you don't know me from adam. you don;t even know the difference between a jew and a zionist, and you are so stupid you think all jews think the same think. this is why you are an anti-semite.

personal attacks? nice touch comparing me to a colonialist. you're such a racist.

keep it up, cause it just makes me laugh. other people here know me and know what I think and believe, so all you are really doing is making yourself look bad with all this hyperbole.

anyway, this time I am really done. just wanted to chime in one more time. cause you don't make me mad honey, you just make me chuckle. also you make my husband and friends chuckle too. we're all having one giant collective laugh at your self-righteous ridiculousness.

peace.

#128
Anamika
October 2, 2007
06:58 AM

small squirrel - you are so boringly predictable. Really one does wonder if you are able to communicate without resorting to expletives. But perhaps the internet provides you with a safe channel of articulating that rage you deny yet consistently express in your posts.

The "right to exist" you support requires the expulsion and genocide of another people - whose basic crime has been to be less politically, economically and militarily powerful.

My question remains the same: Why make the palestinians pay for the sins of europeans?

Frankly I don't expect you to do answer any of the questions because you have amply demonstrated yourself incapable of responding without personal attacks and expletives or indeed with any rational coherence.

Btw, my compliments to Mssrs Rothschilds...their wine quality remains remarkably consistent, despite the travails of history.

#129
temporal
URL
October 2, 2007
08:01 AM


Poll: Most Israelis support using nukes

Approximately 72 percent of Israelis support the use of nuclear weapons in certain circumstances, according to a Canadian survey released recently.

#130
temporal
URL
October 2, 2007
08:12 AM

Interview with Seymour Hersch

Hersh: We have this wonderful capacity in America to Hitlerize people. We had Hitler, and since Hitler we've had about 20 of them. Khrushchev and Mao and of course Stalin, and for a little while Gadhafi was our Hitler. And now we have this guy Ahmadinejad. The reality is, he's not nearly as powerful inside the country as we like to think he is. The Revolutionary Guards have direct control over the missile program and if there is a weapons program, they would be the ones running it. Not Ahmadinejad.

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