Desicritics Comments on Where are the Homosexuals In India?

Comment by Sumit Baudh

Fri, 28 Sep 2007 23:55:04 EDT

Just like to emphasize some resources. All four books advertised here are familiar. Queering India, by Ruth Vanita; With respect to sex, Reddy; Love in another.., Jeremy; Same sex love, Ruth & Saleem. I have read the latter two. Loved them both and would REALLY recommend. Another good reading on hijras is Serena Nanda's, Neither Man Nor Woman.. Within Bangalore, I would recommend two organisations: (i) Sangama, a sexuality minorities human rights organization. www.sangama.org (ii) Alternative Law Forum, a collective of lawyers. www.altlawforum.org

Comment by smallsquirrel

Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:30:14 EDT

hi someone... the thing, as you said, I am not anti-hijra and I do hope that came across. I have no issues with hijras that want to become hijras. and I have a HUGE amount of respect for them. When I see them here, I usually stop to talk to them and I give them money... but I do talk to them about how things are for them here, etc. here is the social problem I see... from a lot of the documentaries I have seen, the issue is that a lot of effeminate boys from small villages are forced to leave because the people sense there is something "different" with them. they go to large cities and are thankfully taken in by the hijra community. except, some of these boys do not want to be eunuchs. they want to have sex with men AS men, not as women. but since this is the community that has taken them in, and this is the option available to them, and they feel a loyalty to the people that are now their family, they become hijras. I agree that this is not all hijras. some are truly transgendered and are perfectly happy with their lives in that regard. also unfortunately, however, many hijras cannot afford surgery by a reputable surgeon and the castration is performed by some back alley quack. so when I said mutilation, part of what I meant that these poor people do not even have access to proper healthcare. What I mean is this. I wish it was a world where people were free to be who they are without these shitty categories. And certainly, I cannot imagine the pain of being trapped in the wrong body as transgendered people must feel, especially if they do not have adequate money for hormones/surgery. but I also feel there is a good amount of societal pressure for these men, because it is more acceptable in India to be a eunuch than it is to be an effeminate gay man. so some men have to turn to castration in order to survive, and that should not happen. it should be a choice.

Comment by someone

Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:53:24 EDT

I think this is a fine article. I was just wondering whether you could sound gay-affirmative without sounding anti-hijras. I know you're not, its obvious from your political stand here, but just that phrases like 'chop off their balls' etc. makes it sound like becoming a hijra is a really painful/negative experience, which might not be how hijras or people who want to become hijras see it. Other than that, I thought it was a great rant!

Comment by smallsquirrel

Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:44:32 EDT

sumit... thanks for writing in. good points, all. I think I addressed the hijra issue later on in the comment section... looked at your blog, and it's a great one. good on you for talking openly and honestly about yourself and the issues around you. not that I think everyone needs to do that, but when people choose to I think it is a great resource for those who otherwise feel alienated and alone.

Comment by Sumit Baudh

Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:15:59 EDT

I am an Indian living in India. I am gay. More about me on my blog http://sumitbaudh.blogspot.com/ I enjoyed reading the article. It's occasionally funny. I don't think Hijras are the same as gay men; and not all of them are castrated. There are plenty of homosexuals in India. Yet homo-sociability (like holding hands in public) should not be mistaken for homosexuality. Identities like gay are culture specific. Gay Americans will certainly differ from "gay" Iranians or Indians; and that's just fine. To try and locate the exact model (of gayness) everywhere is a mistake. Finally, to address the title /question: Where are the Homosexuals In India? It depends on WHO or WHAT you are looking for and WHERE.

Comment by Aaman

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 03:15:24 EDT

Interesting essary by Juan Cole

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's bigotted statement that there are no homosexuals in Iran derived from his rightwing religious commitments. What he said is very serious. He erased gays right out of existence. The ultimate in denying people their rights is to deny they even exist (the nonexistent obviously have no rights.) There could be a debate over whether the gay lifestyle exists in Muslim countries, as a matter of identity politics, of course, but Ahmadinejad is not that sophisticated. He was saying that all Iranians are straight. Of course, gays are punished very severely in Iran, in reality. It would be nice for the US Right to have us forget that they pull the Ahmadinejad act with regard to gays every day. Denying gays the right to marry is a way of erasing them from civil society. It is a way of denying that they really love one another, as straights do. It is a way of asserting that they do not exist. The "don't ask, don't tell" policy in the US military (so unlike the one followed by many NATO allies) is also a way of erasing gays. They don't exist unless they themselves press the case that they exist. In order to remain in their jobs, they are forced to erase themselves by their silence. The 'don't ask, don't tell' policy is a way of pretending that there are no gays in the US military. For if it could be proven that anyone is gay, he is immediately expelled. It is just as silly as what Ahmadinejad said, and just as pernicious. That policy is supported by the entire American Right, which is no better than Ahmadinejad in this regard.

Comment by Hari

Thu, 27 Sep 2007 02:17:51 EDT

No no he said "we don't have homosexuals like you do in your country" they have a different type of gays!

Comment by Sanjay

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 21:15:14 EDT

But Ahmedinejad has already given the answer at Columbia: "There are no homosexuals, except in the decadent America" This is the man whom the ummah worldwide say is a great intellectual.

Comment by Hari

Wed, 26 Sep 2007 18:09:13 EDT

Hey, I thank you for this article. Very interesting. I've noticed however, the modern Urban Indian generation is really chill. Most my cousin's friends know he's a homosexual, and most of them know that I'm a bisexual when I'm in India. Everyone's really cool about it. And here in the US, I'm involved in several Hindu organizations of which I've even been president of, and the members all know my orientation. I think liberal thinking is appearing slowly, but it is happening! KEEP YOUR EYES OUT FOR GAY GUYS! THERE ARE PLENTY OF REALLY GOOD LOOKING ONES IN BANAGLORE.

Comment by PH

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 10:19:31 EDT

Aditi, KN Park used to be the late night meeting point, I dunno if its empty at that hour. I happened to be returning once at 1am-ish from a music fest in the area, and was oddly surprised at the number of openly gay ppl. Only later was I to read abt it. But this was almost a decade ago, it may have changed now

Comment by smallsquirrel

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 06:05:41 EDT

bystander... seems like you've missed the entire point here... go back, re-read and get back to us, yaar.

Comment by sm

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 06:05:32 EDT

bystander... seems like you've missed the entire point here... go back, re-read and get back to us, yaar.

Comment by Deepti Lamba

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 05:49:24 EDT

Bystander, no one on the DC panel is homophobic. And yeah we do have gay authors on our site.

Comment by Bystander

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 05:43:32 EDT

who'se in denial??? Ahmadinejad or desicritics...why you should be proud to have a homo on your panel....go on say it....

Comment by smallsquirrel

Tue, 25 Sep 2007 03:20:43 EDT

aditi... I agree with you about hijras, but here is what I suspect happens in India. whenever a boy shows any characteristics of being effeminate or at all flamboyant, his only choice really is to become a eunuch. In the US or other places that man would end up being what we call a "queen", or a very flamboyant gay man. But since that is not an option to men here, they end up resorting to castration. so effeminate men who wanted to have relationships with men AS men are in trouble.. they either have to become a fashion designer fast, or a hijra. And all jokes aside, how horrible is that, that someone's only option is to mutilate their bodies to gain acceptance! yes, I agree, hijras are more accepted than the average gay man, with a kind of passive tolerance. and the reason is, I think, is because they are castrated. that is horrible. yes, they are seen as a third sex, but a fairly impotent one. As for the US, you have noticed things correctly. There are thriving gay "pockets" in the US in major cities on the coast. It is like that, the coasts (minus the deep south) are very liberal and then then center of the country is conservative. So while gays can move about quite happily in NY, CA, DC, Atlanta, etc... you have horrible situations like what happened to Matthew Sheppard happening in the center of the country. (for all of you who do not know, Matthew was a boy who was beaten and horribly assaulted, tied to a fence in the middle of a field and left to die... all because of his sexual orientation. aaman... yup, iran has no homosexuals, probably because they kill them all! :)

Comment by Aditi Nadkarni

Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:19:32 EDT

I always thought Gateway Of India/ Churchgate were the gay hubs in Bombay...now Kamala Nehru Park seems a lot more deserted than before. I'm not sure but I've heard that Colaba area has quite a few gay bars. There's even a website for gay Bombayites to connect, which I think is pretty cool: http://www.gaybombay.org/index.php

Comment by PH

Mon, 24 Sep 2007 16:41:57 EDT

smallsquirrel, Nice piece. Perhaps those who have grown up and seen all sorts of nightlife in B'lore might know where the gay hubs are. In Mumbai, Kamala Nehru Park was (still may be, I dunno) the big meeting spot before the gay bar scene cropped up. Repression is never good. All it leads to is post-puberty boys sexually exploiting younger boys and men on local trains feeling hapless commuters up.

Comment by Aditi Nadkarni

Mon, 24 Sep 2007 16:14:25 EDT

#18 Aaman, Hahaha, that is hilarious. Smallsquirrel: It is a nice article. I think that the issue of homosexuality in an Indian context did require address. But I am not sure if "hijras" fit as an apt reference in this particular discussion. While the term eunuch deals not just with sexuality but a far more complex reproductive make-up, homosexuality is solely about sexual preference. It may come as a shock to a few when I say this but I think that hijras are probably more acceptable in desi society than a gay man. In cosmpolitan India one sees hijras begging on the streets and mingling among the general populace but god forbid if a neighbourhood finds out that a man in gay, they'll treat him like he was a child molestor or a sex offender. Surprisingly in the US too I find this trend. New York and California I thought were gay as ever. BUT in the midwest in United States also I find a rigid and passive disapproval lurking among people when it comes to homosexuality. The Southern states in the US are homophobic too. So I wonder if it is more than just the nation or a community that displays homophobia. I think there may be more of an age/ generation/ socioeconomic class related demographic factor that is in play too. Deepti #1: You said: "To me all that matters is that our kids be good human beings and they don't deliberately set out to hurt people. Apart from that its their lives and whatever makes them happy makes us happy" So beautifully put. If more people thought like that and nurtured this sentiment we would have no hate crimes.

Comment by Becharagrad

Mon, 24 Sep 2007 15:16:36 EDT

As a gay man having grown up in Bombay and moved to New York, I can say that gay men definitely exist in India - in all cities, towns and villages. The fear of being a social pariah, and being disowned by your loved ones definitely puts people far into the closet (and yes, that does include getting married and having kids), but that never stops them from having sex with other men. The gay society is now apparent in Bombay for those who look for it (mostly through word of mouth and the internet), but is still invisible for those who believe it doesn't exist. And I do believe things are getting better, but at a snails pace (as most social issues usually move in India). The gay parties/events that happen in Bombay can be found on the Gay Bombay website, and they have affiliations with most other cities.

Comment by Aaman

Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:52:26 EDT

Ahmadinejad answering a question in the Columbia speech on homosexuals in his country,"We don't have that phenomenon in our country":)

Comment by smallsquirrel

Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:01:35 EDT

aaman...EXCELLENT article, thank you. it hits the nail on the head completely, and touches on aspects of homosexuality pertinent to indians in particular. cs... I am not sure you can prioritize these things... progress should happen all together, not in a compartmentalized fashion, else it will never move forward.

Comment by corporate serf

Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:52:29 EDT

In the earlier comment I meant at this point of time. ( Hit send too soon, sorry). We can tackle the societal reactions once the fundamental rights are practically guaranteed. Fighting social attitudes will be easier as at that point as well. If prioritizing one's fights is a question; one can also ask whether the dalit rights fight at a social level should precede the gay rights fight at a legal level; given the numbers. Who knows?

Comment by corporate serf

Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:48:45 EDT

ss, agreed. But in India the bigger priority must be to get the fundamental rights that our constitution guarantees us.

Comment by Aaman

Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:35:49 EDT

SS, you may find this article on Gay life in India interesting, from Gaybombay.in - I believe the original source of the article is the Deccan Herald, one of India's better newspapers.

Comment by smallsquirrel

Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:30:48 EDT

cs.. I think you raise some very good points in #5. thanks for that input. but I still think that social issues will remain even even after the legal/economic issues are resolved. I mean fine, it might not be illegal any more, but will society accept it? look at the US, we still have a lot of hate crime, sadly....